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nature
Jul. 22, 2007, 04:22 PM
From the FEI website:

Case of abuse at CCI4* Lexington (USA): Amy Tryon accepts the decision of FEI Tribunal

The FEI has received official notification of Amy Tryon’s acceptance of FEI Tribunal’s decision and waiving her right to appeal. Consequently, Amy Tryon’s suspension commences immediately and will run from 20 July through 19 September 2007 inclusive.
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© 2007 - Fédération Equestre I

flyracing
Jul. 22, 2007, 05:53 PM
So can she run in USEA events? Will she move her horses to the Adv. division at Rebecca next week?

I know it won't be Rebecca to toss her out of the event since Rebecca B. was LS owner and seemed to support Amy throughout.

PS What does she have to appeal? She is probably counting her blessings on the outcome from FEI... the rest of the event world (sadly) will not help out a fellow eventer who is in such a rough place:no:.

RiverBendPol
Jul. 22, 2007, 06:24 PM
Appeal? Are you KIDDING me??????????? She has suspension for only 2 freaking months. Sure seems like a token slap on the wrist to me. :mad:

Take a look at Mara Dean yesterday.....Nicky Henley, in 1st place, at the WORLD GAMES, took a funny step and Mara PULLED UP on cross country.....Gosh, I wonder how she ever DID that....Wasn't the horse "locked on" to the next jump?? Isn't it nearly IMPOSSIBLE to pull up an Advanced level event horse??


I certainly hope you are reading my sarcasm.............

Ellie K
Jul. 22, 2007, 07:23 PM
The short suspension was in exchange for not appealing. Basically it's a plea bargain...they still go through the official motions, giving the rider the 30 days to decide as they are allowed per the rules, but...it was already decided. Because a harsher suspension would not withstand appeal, based on precedent. If she had gotten 6 months and gone to CAS they would have tossed it out, and she probably would have come out of there with at most 2-3 months anyway. And CAS might have even thrown out the entire suspension. So if she's going to wind up with about the same penalty anyway, and possibly less, what would be gained by the FEI? A pat on the back from the mass public for throwing the book at her knowing it's going to get overturned whilst they point the finger at CAS, the bad guy? It's better (for The Sport) to NOT have this anywhere near CAS--a tribunal of non-equestrian arbitrators--to begin with. It's not a bad thing to have to go all the way back to Ward v. FEI to find a CAS benchmark.

Also don't forget that she already voluntarily withdrew from Luhmühlen, so that is basically "time served" and that is normally taken into account as well. And she also withdrew from the Hong Kong test which she wasn't obliged to do (she could have taken the full 30 days to waive right to appeal and trotted off to Hong Kong entirely within the rules, which of course would not have been appreciated by many). And no she can't compete at USEF events either (unless the USEF has worked a deal on this as well :lol:); an FEI suspension is a suspension from not only FEI events but from any events under the jurisdiction of any NF which is a member of the FEI.

HotIITrot
Jul. 22, 2007, 07:24 PM
Now Mara may have done that despite AT’s fiasco. However, one can’t help but wonder if Mara possibly learned a little from AT’s mistake. As terrible as Amy’s situation was, at least something positive may have resulted. Like others have posted and mentioned …

When in doubt, pull up. :yes:

I think a lot more people will be having this on there minds now, which is a good thing!

Black Forest
Jul. 22, 2007, 07:25 PM
Take a look at Mara Dean yesterday.....Nicky Henley, in 1st place, at the WORLD GAMES, .


urm - There is actually a little bit of "world" surrounding the Pan American Area.... You meant the "Pan American Games"

snoopy
Jul. 22, 2007, 07:36 PM
[QUOTE=RiverBendPol;2577600]Appeal? Are you KIDDING me??????????? She has suspension for only 2 freaking months. Sure seems like a token slap on the wrist to me. :mad:
QUOTE]


Amen!!!

Her decision not to appeal is the ONLY "logical" statement regarding this whole farce.

retreadeventer
Jul. 22, 2007, 10:22 PM
Nonsense. This is not a token punishment. Any suspension is significant, will remain w/ the rider or trainer's record for the rest of their career. If you knew anything at all about the horse business, you can easily find out information on suspensions that happen to trainers, riders and owners in the horse racing field. 60 days is a very significant suspension period in this business and results in a significant loss of income, and it carries over to all of the racetracks. In the racing world you have to list any kind of suspension on your application for licensure in any state or country every time you apply or re-apply for an owner's, trainer's, riders/drivers license. Under no circumstances I can imagine would this be considered a "slap on the wrist". It's a significant penalty which I personally feel is unwarranted given the uncertainty, the ambiguousness, the gray areas as attested to in the hearing. In the racing world a definitive positive test with a seriously regarded illegal substance would warrant such a suspension, or a multiplicy of repeated infractions such as consistent positive tests, showing a pattern of attempting to cheat. This is not nearly approaching that standard.
These posts that are constantly trying to upbraid the FEI, the USEF, and other extremely knowledgeable and experienced people are not amusing. They are quite ignorant. If you do not know what you are talking about, especially on the world equestrian level, shut up. You do tremendous damage to the sport and to American equestrians competing at the international level, far more than you know and way beyond what happened that day.
JMO!!!:(

flyracing
Jul. 22, 2007, 10:29 PM
Nonsense. This is not a token punishment. Any suspension is significant, will remain w/ the rider or trainer's record for the rest of their career. If you knew anything at all about the horse business, you can easily find out information on suspensions that happen to trainers, riders and owners in the horse racing field. 60 days is a very significant suspension period in this business and results in a significant loss of income, and it carries over to all of the racetracks. In the racing world you have to list any kind of suspension on your application for licensure in any state or country every time you apply or re-apply for an owner's, trainer's, riders/drivers license. Under no circumstances I can imagine would this be considered a "slap on the wrist". It's a significant penalty which I personally feel is unwarranted given the uncertainty, the ambiguousness, the gray areas as attested to in the hearing. In the racing world a definitive positive test with a seriously regarded illegal substance would warrant such a suspension, or a multiplicy of repeated infractions such as consistent positive tests, showing a pattern of attempting to cheat. This is not nearly approaching that standard.
These posts that are constantly trying to upbraid the FEI, the USEF, and other extremely knowledgeable and experienced people are not amusing. They are quite ignorant. If you do not know what you are talking about, especially on the world equestrian level, shut up. You do tremendous damage to the sport and to American equestrians competing at the international level, far more than you know and way beyond what happened that day.
JMO!!!:(


Although somewhat harshly written towards other on this board, I fully agree witht the point you are making!

flyingchange
Jul. 22, 2007, 10:34 PM
Nonsense. This is not a token punishment. Any suspension is significant, will remain w/ the rider or trainer's record for the rest of their career. If you knew anything at all about the horse business, you can easily find out information on suspensions that happen to trainers, riders and owners in the horse racing field. 60 days is a very significant suspension period in this business and results in a significant loss of income, and it carries over to all of the racetracks. In the racing world you have to list any kind of suspension on your application for licensure in any state or country every time you apply or re-apply for an owner's, trainer's, riders/drivers license. Under no circumstances I can imagine would this be considered a "slap on the wrist". It's a significant penalty which I personally feel is unwarranted given the uncertainty, the ambiguousness, the gray areas as attested to in the hearing. In the racing world a definitive positive test with a seriously regarded illegal substance would warrant such a suspension, or a multiplicy of repeated infractions such as consistent positive tests, showing a pattern of attempting to cheat. This is not nearly approaching that standard.
These posts that are constantly trying to upbraid the FEI, the USEF, and other extremely knowledgeable and experienced people are not amusing. They are quite ignorant. If you do not know what you are talking about, especially on the world equestrian level, shut up. You do tremendous damage to the sport and to American equestrians competing at the international level, far more than you know and way beyond what happened that day.
JMO!!!:(

First of all, we are talking about showing, not racing.

Second of all, nobody here posting on this forum could possibly, in their wildest nightmares, come close to doing the damage to "American equestrians" and to the use of "horsemanship" as was once implied in the word "eventing" than Amy Tryon and her cohort of supporters in all of this.

HotIITrot
Jul. 22, 2007, 10:35 PM
Excellent points retrendeventer.

oreo
Jul. 22, 2007, 11:33 PM
Now Mara may have done that despite AT’s fiasco. However, one can’t help but wonder if Mara possibly learned a little from AT’s mistake. As terrible as Amy’s situation was, at least something positive may have resulted. Like others have posted and mentioned …

When in doubt, pull up. :yes:

I think a lot more people will be having this on there minds now, which is a good thing!

Sorry - see my new thread on this. This post is insulting to Mara. She would have pulled up whether the FEI had given AT a life sentence or a bunch of roses and a million dollar check......

Would you like to ask Mara that question to her face?

criss
Jul. 23, 2007, 01:13 AM
Sorry - see my new thread on this. This post is insulting to Mara. She would have pulled up whether the FEI had given AT a life sentence or a bunch of roses and a million dollar check......

Would you like to ask Mara that question to her face?

I've been stayin' outta this whole mess, and I still will, except that I'd like to say I don't see how this is insulting to Mara. The tragedy, controversy, anger, etc, etc, surrounding AT cannot help but impact other riders, for better or for worse. OF COURSE pulling up at the first sign of injury is more at the top of other riders' minds now. Heck, it's more at the top of MY mind--if I were competing now, which I'm not, I would certainly be more likely to stop the first time my horse took a wobbly step than I would have been to do the same this time last year. It doesn't mean Mara is only trying to avoid being tarred and feathered--it means she is possibly learning from others' mistakes to be better at what she does, which is what we all should do. If an accident can put safety in the forefront and prevent other accidents, it makes it less terrible, not more. At least there's a salvageable bit of a lesson in it, right?

JSwan
Jul. 23, 2007, 06:28 AM
I think everyone should keep in mind that this decision is more punishment than your local criminal court is going to give the most heinous animal abuser.

The horse was injured and was euthanized. The rider didn't pull up when she should have. It was a mistake, and everyone recognizes that it was a mistake.

Every horse owner makes such mistakes. And often the horse dies because of it. Just a wait and see approach to calling the vet on a colic can result in the horse dying - because we didn't recognize the danger in time. We all know of cases like that. A puncture wound gone bad. Pasture accident that could have been avoided in hindsight.

Whether one is in the spotlight or not - that doesn't matter to me. I make a distinction between AT's mistake and someone who commits acts intentionally and with malice. So does the FEI.

And our legal system does too - she would never have even been accused of animal abuse in our legal system.

The incident was recognized for what it was, and AT was admonished. This does affect her and her reputation.

If you want to see a miscarriage of justice, go to any courtroom and watch real criminals walk out with not even a slap on the wrist. Torturing puppies? Maybe 30 days; suspended. Lighting a dog on fire? 30 days; suspended; 500$ fine. Poisoning the neighborhood dogs? 60 days; suspended.

Starving a herd of horses, not treating broken bones, dead horses laying around? 6 months, 4 suspended; 1000$ fine.

I could go on....

Save your anger for real animal abuse and leave AT alone.

BigRuss1996
Jul. 23, 2007, 06:53 AM
Mara did not "Learn" anything from Amy. Mara (and I do know her personally) is an incredible horseperson and an amazing rider and I do not put her and Amy in the same league at all. She has more talent in her little finger. She has just had some rough luck, but I can assure you her horse ALWAYS comes first....



Now Mara may have done that despite AT’s fiasco. However, one can’t help but wonder if Mara possibly learned a little from AT’s mistake. As terrible as Amy’s situation was, at least something positive may have resulted. Like others have posted and mentioned …

When in doubt, pull up. :yes:

I think a lot more people will be having this on there minds now, which is a good thing!

RiverBendPol
Jul. 23, 2007, 07:22 AM
Mara did not "Learn" anything from Amy. Mara (and I do know her personally) is an incredible horseperson and an amazing rider and I do not put her and Amy in the same league at all. She has more talent in her little finger. She has just had some rough luck, but I can assure you her horse ALWAYS comes first....

Bingo.

bounce
Jul. 23, 2007, 07:37 AM
I think everyone should keep in mind that this decision is more punishment than your local criminal court is going to give the most heinous animal abuser.

The horse was injured and was euthanized. The rider didn't pull up when she should have. It was a mistake, and everyone recognizes that it was a mistake.

Every horse owner makes such mistakes. And often the horse dies because of it. Just a wait and see approach to calling the vet on a colic can result in the horse dying - because we didn't recognize the danger in time. We all know of cases like that. A puncture wound gone bad. Pasture accident that could have been avoided in hindsight.

Whether one is in the spotlight or not - that doesn't matter to me. I make a distinction between AT's mistake and someone who commits acts intentionally and with malice. So does the FEI.

And our legal system does too - she would never have even been accused of animal abuse in our legal system.

The incident was recognized for what it was, and AT was admonished. This does affect her and her reputation.

If you want to see a miscarriage of justice, go to any courtroom and watch real criminals walk out with not even a slap on the wrist. Torturing puppies? Maybe 30 days; suspended. Lighting a dog on fire? 30 days; suspended; 500$ fine. Poisoning the neighborhood dogs? 60 days; suspended.

Starving a herd of horses, not treating broken bones, dead horses laying around? 6 months, 4 suspended; 1000$ fine.

I could go on....

Save your anger for real animal abuse and leave AT alone.


Amen! Thank you Swan, for bringing everyone back to the REAL world! And let's not forget... AT feels extreme REMORSE for her action. Her partner... her friend... paid dearly for her mistake... and this is a higher punishment than any court could dole out.

Paks
Jul. 23, 2007, 09:19 AM
Amen! Thank you Swan, for bringing everyone back to the REAL world! And let's not forget... AT feels extreme REMORSE for her action. Her partner... her friend... paid dearly for her mistake... and this is a higher punishment than any court could dole out.

Which mistake are you talking about? The one where she didn't immediately pull up?. The one where he broke to a trot and she pushed him back to the canter? The one where he broke to a trot the second time and she again pushed him back into a canter? The one where she turned the corner towards the final fence? The one where she used an opening rein to straighten him towards the fence? The clucking sound she made (clearly audible on the DVD) to urge him over the final fence? It wasn't just one mistake it was several critical errors in judgement. A mistake is what I make when I try to spell without spell check.

As far as sympathy? As I said before her expecting sympathy is very close the the classic example of Chutzpah and this time I am including reference links since some people took exception to the example last time.

http://legalminds.lp.findlaw.com/list/antitrust/msg00074.html
http://www.jlaw.com/Commentary/SupremeChutzpah.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/02/opinion/02KRUG.html?ex=1393563600&en=f70ca455a31dd83d&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND

arnika
Jul. 23, 2007, 09:20 AM
by retreadeventer:
Nonsense. This is not a token punishment. Any suspension is significant, will remain w/ the rider or trainer's record for the rest of their career. If you knew anything at all about the horse business, you can easily find out information on suspensions that happen to trainers, riders and owners in the horse racing field. 60 days is a very significant suspension period in this business and results in a significant loss of income, and it carries over to all of the racetracks. In the racing world you have to list any kind of suspension on your application for licensure in any state or country every time you apply or re-apply for an owner's, trainer's, riders/drivers license. Under no circumstances I can imagine would this be considered a "slap on the wrist".

The main reason I consider this a "slap on the wrist" is three-fold.

First: The suspension given is two months, occurring in the one time of the year that has few, if any, major events happening. She'll be right back eventing just in time for the big winter season.

Second: Since this is showing, not racing, the suspension will stay on the FEI site for one year. After that it will disappear. Trainers need no licensure so no one to report it to.

Third: It may sound paranoid and "conspiracy theorist in tone" but I will never be convinced that the USEF BOGs and Amy Tryon and her owners did not get together as soon as they saw which way the wind was blowing and hurriedly make plans to get she and Poggio qualified for the Olympics, prior to her suspension, just in case it was for longer than they wanted.

You just wait and see. I would bet a thousand to one that she will be a member of our Olympic team next year. The USEF will ignore any public sentiment and just place her right in. Why else would they allow her to go ahead and compete in USEF competitions, knowing that she had been disqualified for abuse at Rolex and was awaiting further censure? They couldn't be sure that she would be able to compete at any other qualifiers over the winter/spring 2007-8 (Oh ye of little faith!) so she ran Poggio at back-to-back competitions, including a cross-country trip, just so they would be able to say "but see, she IS qualified for the Olympics already".

I watched her run him that way right after Rolex and thought, " Yeah, she sure puts her horses' welfare first, all the time.:rolleyes: She learned a lot from losing Le Samurai. She's just lucky that Poggio didn't break down from running back to back events. She rolled the dice again and won that time. Again, it was the horse that had to take the risk.

bambam
Jul. 23, 2007, 09:21 AM
Ellie K- what precedent are your referring to (in terms of saying a harsher punishment would not have stood up)? I assume the information on formally handed down sanctions would be public so if you could explain that, I would really appreciate it.

zagafi
Jul. 23, 2007, 09:27 AM
I think everyone should keep in mind that this decision is more punishment than your local criminal court is going to give the most heinous animal abuser.

The horse was injured and was euthanized. The rider didn't pull up when she should have. It was a mistake, and everyone recognizes that it was a mistake.

Every horse owner makes such mistakes. And often the horse dies because of it. Just a wait and see approach to calling the vet on a colic can result in the horse dying - because we didn't recognize the danger in time. We all know of cases like that. A puncture wound gone bad. Pasture accident that could have been avoided in hindsight.

Whether one is in the spotlight or not - that doesn't matter to me. I make a distinction between AT's mistake and someone who commits acts intentionally and with malice. So does the FEI.

And our legal system does too - she would never have even been accused of animal abuse in our legal system.

The incident was recognized for what it was, and AT was admonished. This does affect her and her reputation.

If you want to see a miscarriage of justice, go to any courtroom and watch real criminals walk out with not even a slap on the wrist. Torturing puppies? Maybe 30 days; suspended. Lighting a dog on fire? 30 days; suspended; 500$ fine. Poisoning the neighborhood dogs? 60 days; suspended.

Starving a herd of horses, not treating broken bones, dead horses laying around? 6 months, 4 suspended; 1000$ fine.

I could go on....

Save your anger for real animal abuse and leave AT alone.

Well said.

bounce
Jul. 23, 2007, 09:51 AM
Which mistake are you talking about? The one where she didn't immediately pull up?. The one where he broke to a trot and she pushed him back to the canter? The one where he broke to a trot the second time and she again pushed him back into a canter? The one where she turned the corner towards the final fence? The one where she used an opening rein to straighten him towards the fence? The clucking sound she made (clearly audible on the DVD) to urge him over the final fence? It wasn't just one mistake it was several critical errors in judgement. A mistake is what I make when I try to spell without spell check.

As far as sympathy? As I said before her expecting sympathy is very close the the classic example of Chutzpah and this time I am including reference links since some people took exception to the example last time.

http://legalminds.lp.findlaw.com/list/antitrust/msg00074.html
http://www.jlaw.com/Commentary/SupremeChutzpah.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/02/opinion/02KRUG.html?ex=1393563600&en=f70ca455a31dd83d&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND


Chaotic Mind:
Do you event?
Have you ever had a horse step on a front bellboot while they are galloping and pull it off? My horses reaction was much the same... everytime he did this. He broke to a trot and took a funky step as the boot was across his sole. The 1st few times it happened... I stopped and looked and checked... after that, I ignored it. I would have never gotten around a course if I pulled him up everytime he pulled a bellboot. (and yes... I used appropriately sized pull on boots). Could have been that one of those times that I pushed him on... it was not a bellboot. All I am saying is that until you have been in the VERY same position... you shouldn't be so quick to judge a persons mistakes (and no matter how many "moments in time" you want to give her mistake... it was still one mistake.). Instead... look at the person and judge whether they meant to do harm (as in cases of animal abuse) or were indifferent to the harm being done (had she wondered her horse back to the barn, stuffed him on a trailer and headed home after the event- as in the case of neglect)... or were they truely horrified by the outcome of their actions- as was the case with AT. Heaven forbid you ever have a child come home to tell you that they wrecked the car (looked down at the radio- mistake 1; going 5 miles over the speed limit- mistake 2; didn't notice car stop in front of me- mistake 3; swerved left when I looked up and saw the car- mistake 4; hit a telephone pole-mistake 5; totaled the car- mistake 6...).

arnika
Jul. 23, 2007, 10:07 AM
by bounce:
Instead... look at the person and judge whether they meant to do harm (as in cases of animal abuse) or were indifferent to the harm being done (had she wondered her horse back to the barn, stuffed him on a trailer and headed home after the event- as in the case of neglect)... or were they truely horrified by the outcome of their actions- as was the case with AT.

I still go right back to her decision to run Poggio out west one Fri-Sun., transport him to the east coast during the week and run him again at Jersey Fresh the following Fri-Sun. so that she could get qualified for the Olympics before any probable suspension.

Two big events completely run in 9 days with the same horse! She ran a BIG risk with him and this was right after the loss of LS. You would think she would be worried about breaking down her older, more tried and true competitor. Again, to me it shows an attitude of, my career and opportunities come first, not the welfare of my horses. I'm sure she was glad he stayed sound but that doesn't seem to show a "horrified reaction" to me.

BarbB
Jul. 23, 2007, 10:18 AM
I still go right back to her decision to run Poggio out west one Fri-Sun., transport him to the east coast during the week and run him again at Jersey Fresh the following Fri-Sun. so that she could get qualified for the Olympics before any probable suspension.

Two big events completely run in 9 days with the same horse! She ran a BIG risk with him and this was right after the loss of LS. You would think she would be worried about breaking down her older, more tried and true competitor. Again, to me it shows an attitude of, my career and opportunities come first, not the welfare of my horses. I'm sure she was glad he stayed sound but that doesn't seem to show a "horrified reaction" to me.

Unless you work for the barn, you have no idea how long this was the plan for Poggio, how his training and fitness program was designed and being run, how he was reacting in his everyday work or what discussions went into making that decision about those particular competitions for him.
You are projecting your own personal feelings onto something that you know nothing about.
And now you will respond that you know the RIGHT way to compete a horse, any horse, yours or hers and therefore she was wrong. *barf*

Paks
Jul. 23, 2007, 10:19 AM
Chaotic Mind:
Do you event?
Have you ever had a horse step on a front bellboot while they are galloping and pull it off? My horses reaction was much the same... everytime he did this. He broke to a trot and took a funky step as the boot was across his sole. The 1st few times it happened... I stopped and looked and checked... after that, I ignored it. I would have never gotten around a course if I pulled him up everytime he pulled a bellboot. (and yes... I used appropriately sized pull on boots). Could have been that one of those times that I pushed him on... it was not a bellboot. All I am saying is that until you have been in the VERY same position... you shouldn't be so quick to judge a persons mistakes (and no matter how many "moments in time" you want to give her mistake... it was still one mistake.). Instead... look at the person and judge whether they meant to do harm (as in cases of animal abuse) or were indifferent to the harm being done (had she wondered her horse back to the barn, stuffed him on a trailer and headed home after the event- as in the case of neglect)... or were they truely horrified by the outcome of their actions- as was the case with AT. Heaven forbid you ever have a child come home to tell you that they wrecked the car (looked down at the radio- mistake 1; going 5 miles over the speed limit- mistake 2; didn't notice car stop in front of me- mistake 3; swerved left when I looked up and saw the car- mistake 4; hit a telephone pole-mistake 5; totaled the car- mistake 6...).

Actually totalling the car is a result not a mistake. I guess you have never been involved in any real After Action Reviews or Crash Boards. Accidents seldom have just one cause and it is only by determing and addressing all the factors that significant accident reduction occurs.

As far as my kids well guess what I don't need to go through that they can pretty much recite the chain of events and causitive factors for me. One in fact will even tell me about close calls and the events that led up to them that I did not observe. But then he is a teenager really unfair to expect an adult to exhibt the same degree of responsibility at least by your standards. They also know my attitude when they are up front about their mistakes is quite different when they try to heap on the excuses or cover them up.

As far as my experience with bell boots it is quite extensive and yes I have had them come off and yes I did check everytime. I also know a horse that steps on a bell boot and is otherwise uninjured doesn't take 25 bad steps and try twice to break into a trot. I also know that a horse who is locked on to a fence doesn't need a opening rein to straighten it it also doesn't need to be clucked at to urge it over.

The people who expect us to believe this rubbish must be as stupid as they apparently think we are.

sm
Jul. 23, 2007, 10:20 AM
Ellie K, in additon to bambam's question, what do you base your first two sentences in the first para on? Those sentences being, "The short suspension was in exchange for not appealing. Basically it's a plea bargain...they still go through the official motions, giving the rider the 30 days to decide as they are allowed per the rules, but...it was already decided. "


Ellie K- what precedent are your referring to (in terms of saying a harsher punishment would not have stood up)? I assume the information on formally handed down sanctions would be public so if you could explain that, I would really appreciate it.

PhoenixFarm
Jul. 23, 2007, 10:25 AM
arnika, I've been staying off this because I can't take it any more, but I just have to say (for the third time on these threads), that your understanding of what she did with Poggio is innacurate.

Poggio had run in one event this spring. One. And it was not at advnaced and wasn't run for time. He didn't run any events in the fall. She took him to Woodside, CANTERED around the xc and then didn't show jump him.

I understand your unhappiness about the Rolex situation. But I don't get the vitriol over over Jersey? There were horses at Jersey that had comparitively speaking, had their legs RUN OFF this spring. Heck, there was a horse in the selection trial division who had run pretty much every east coast CIC or advanced, Rolex, then the Virginia CIC**, then jersey. Hell, there were other west coast shipper-ins at Jersey, that had run every event out here this spring, and run them for time.

I get it that you think the time frame isn't OK. But it just doesn't phase me because the I look at the cumulative work. She saved him for the important competition, and then saved him from having to "win at all costs" by getting just under the maximum allowed time penalties. And I see a lot of horses who were much more unfairly treated by their rider this spring. And I see a lot more riders who want to win every weekend, and win the big stuff, instead of the old days where the HT's were to prepapre the horses, and you didnt really worry about the win until it really counted.

I looked at the jersey thing and thought, Wow, how great of her to only run the horse when absolutely necessary. Because it seems clear to me that's what she was doing. He's a grand old man, with a STUNNING record of soundness. You don't get that if the rider doesn't give a rat's @ss. It just doesn't happen. Believe me, I know.

OK, ready to be shredded, and be told why I'm wrong.:rolleyes: Back to lurking.

HotIITrot
Jul. 23, 2007, 10:58 AM
I've been stayin' outta this whole mess, and I still will, except that I'd like to say I don't see how this is insulting to Mara. The tragedy, controversy, anger, etc, etc, surrounding AT cannot help but impact other riders, for better or for worse. OF COURSE pulling up at the first sign of injury is more at the top of other riders' minds now. Heck, it's more at the top of MY mind--if I were competing now, which I'm not, I would certainly be more likely to stop the first time my horse took a wobbly step than I would have been to do the same this time last year. It doesn't mean Mara is only trying to avoid being tarred and feathered--it means she is possibly learning from others' mistakes to be better at what she does, which is what we all should do. If an accident can put safety in the forefront and prevent other accidents, it makes it less terrible, not more. At least there's a salvageable bit of a lesson in it, right?

Exactly :yes:

arnika
Jul. 23, 2007, 11:11 AM
by BarbB:
You are projecting your own personal feelings onto something that you know nothing about.
And now you will respond that you know the RIGHT way to compete a horse, any horse, yours or hers and therefore she was wrong. *barf*


by PhoenixFarm:
OK, ready to be shredded, and be told why I'm wrong.:rolleyes: Back to lurking.

BarbB and PhoenixFarm, I'm not going to shred anyone for having a different opinion than mine and you can barf away all you like.:D

All I did was state my personal opinion and you are of course free to disagree with it til the cows come home. No problem on my end. My only problem is with AT's actions, her suspension and the possibility of her being on the Olympic team.

PS: PhoenixFarm, I also agree with you about some of the other horses being campaigned hard, especially if they were run at 2 events over 9 days. I just don't happen to think that makes it OK for AT as well.

bounce
Jul. 23, 2007, 11:13 AM
The people who expect us to believe this rubbish must be as stupid as they apparently think we are.


No... we are human... and compassionate, understanding people who have been on the side of making a mistake before. We do not think that we are perfect and above making a bad decision.

And of course the result was totally the car... same as the result of AT's mistakes (like looking at the radio) was that her horse was injured.


"unfair to expect an adult to exhibt the same degree of responsibility at least by your standards. They also know my attitude when they are up front about their mistakes is quite different when they try to heap on the excuses or cover them up."

I think that AT DID exhibit responsibility... she hasn't denied her mistake and has been up front about what happened. (maybe not to you personally... but then why should she talk to you?) What exactly is it that you want her to do? Crawl in a hole or give up riding all together? Is that what you consider being responsible?

Ellie K
Jul. 23, 2007, 12:00 PM
Ellie K- what precedent are your referring to (in terms of saying a harsher punishment would not have stood up)? I assume the information on formally handed down sanctions would be public so if you could explain that, I would really appreciate it.McLain Ward. The FEI gave him 8 months and a 4500 USD fine (the exchange rate was much nicer back then). CAS reduced the suspension to 6 months. So, in a legal context (i.e., what they could give her as opposed to what they wanted to give her), I believe they gave her what they knew could stick (give or take a month). I too was very surprised at 2, I thought they'd want to give 6 (and still think so), but they obviously knew CAS would cut it at least in half if not throw it out altogether. So I thought they'd bargain down to 4, possibly 3. And I think 4-6 is entirely reasonable and deserved even if it does not respect proportionality as CAS demands. But if you sort of factor in that she "self-banned" herself from Luhmühlen in June, and I think has otherwise voluntarily refrained from FEI competition, then the "official" 2 months is not as way off as it initially seemed (to me, at least).

CAS will throw out anything that is not proportional. And the benchmark they have to go on is McLain Ward. The only other significant CAS abuse case I can recall ATM is René Tebbel. The FEI gave him 8 months for hypersensitisation (=abuse+cheating), CAS threw out the whole damn thing and he walked. So, to consider the proportionality issue, CAS ruled that Ward deserved 6 months for what was determined to be not only a deliberate act of abuse, but with the aim to enhance performance (cheating). The horse was unharmed but the ruling was that there was intent to inflict harm (by virtue of the nature of the offence) . And he had a prior related incident that still isn't explained even if one believes that he was set up at Aachen. So he's still screwed anyway on that basis.

Vis-à-vis Amy, who per testimony had no prior judicial offenses either nationally or FEI, who was merely negligent (albeit tremendously so), and whose negligence even endangered her own life far beyond the routine risk inherent to the sport, and who was not found to have caused the injury to the horse much less his death. And despite what I might feel about the testimony (there are some statements that don't quite sit right with me and questions I still have), I think the notion of intent was still a long, long way from being proven.

Eq3nStar
Jul. 23, 2007, 12:30 PM
First of all, we are talking about showing, not racing.

Second of all, nobody here posting on this forum could possibly, in their wildest nightmares, come close to doing the damage to "American equestrians" and to the use of "horsemanship" as was once implied in the word "eventing" than Amy Tryon and her cohort of supporters in all of this.

Amen sister

bambam
Jul. 23, 2007, 12:33 PM
Thank you Ellie K. That is very interesting. The response of CAS had not been something I had considered.

Ellie K
Jul. 23, 2007, 01:31 PM
Ellie K, in additon to bambam's question, what do you base your first two sentences in the first para on? Those sentences being, "The short suspension was in exchange for not appealing. Basically it's a plea bargain...they still go through the official motions, giving the rider the 30 days to decide as they are allowed per the rules, but...it was already decided. "It's just how it works. When you have a light sentence like that, and reason to suspect that CAS wouldn't uphold much more (if any of it), and Amy's immediate statement: "I am prepared to accept the Tribunal's decision for the good of the sport." Obviously there was an agreement, it can even be just the tacit knowledge of what the athlete's threshold is, or you can give a penalty that is not worth appealing, so you can see it was imposed on that basis.

Every time they go to CAS with a unique case with any special circumstances (such as negligent abuse w/o determination of intent...vs. your standard drug positive that they see all the time) they risk the chance that the competitor will walk. Why did Cian O'Connor get 3 months? That is a joke. The reason is that because of the "irregularities" in the case, he had an excellent chance to be let off in CAS, and retain the medal. What little reputation he had was already shot to shit, but it was absolutely imperative that he not keep the medal. The IOC do not care if cheaters are caught, they seem to celebrate it. But they will not tolerate cheaters getting away with it and keeping the medals. So the FEI gave him a light suspension so he would waive his right to appeal, and were thus assured that he wouldn't be the gold medalist. That was what was most important to both sides and that was the big deterrent--the length of suspension was secondary. And the FEI accepted the public outcry for it, because they knew the greater good was achieved.

In Amy's case, I think it was most important to the FEI that she at least get sat down for SOME period of time. I do believe now, I didn't at first, but now, that there was a chance she would have ended up with no suspension at all had she appealed. That would have been in some ways better for the FEI itself, because they could just point the finger at CAS. But I think many would agree it would have been worse for the sport. So in this sense I am starting to respect it.
It is extremely difficult to implement meaningful penalties when you know that CAS will keep paring them down based on precedent/proportionality. But the desire is definitely there.

Weatherford
Jul. 23, 2007, 01:48 PM
Excellent explanations Ellie K - Especially on the other two cases - which I think were much worse as they were deliberate actions.

vineyridge
Jul. 23, 2007, 01:53 PM
Ellie K

As one of the many here with legal training, I appreciate your explanation and background of how and why this probably ended up where it did.

But I do have one question--the FEI gave Bettina Hoy back her medal for subjectively not hearing the first bell and crossing the start line twice. The CAS took it away after the US and Britain appealed. So the CAS has been known to be tough on a rider who objectively breaks the rules. Why wouldn't they have looked at this matter as something similar?

I wasn't aware of the Rene Tebbel precedent, and was pleased that the FEI did cite a precedent. Of course, with MW, the plastic shards in the boot had to be deliberate, unlike the unsettled questions surrounding keeping LeS keeping on.

Thank you again for your explanation--it's definitely changed how I looked at a decision that at first glance appeared to be a travesty.

The Rene Tebbel flap isn't on the internet in English very much. Happened in 1999, and this is the only solid information I could find:


Tebbel, who also nearly won the Berlin World Cup round with the same headlong galloping tactics, was originally suspended by the German Federation and the International Equestrian Federation for allegedly putting a forbidden substance under the bandages of one of his horses at the 1999 Stuttgart show to make it jump more carefully.
The Court of Arbitration in Sport allowed Tebbel's appeal against the FEI ban, apparently on technical grounds, and the German Federation recently settled their own year-long investigation by fining him just DM 3,000 (£934), but with Tebbel also paying the considerable costs, of around DM250,000 (£78,000).

bip
Jul. 23, 2007, 02:00 PM
I googled "sanctimonious" and this thread was the top result. Followed by a bunch of other AT threads...

Paks
Jul. 23, 2007, 02:12 PM
Your explaination on the CAS helps me understand the FEI's actions at least.

Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.
Jul. 23, 2007, 02:22 PM
The people who expect us to believe this rubbish must be as stupid as they apparently think we are.
__________________


Go Bounce:cool:..

JER
Jul. 23, 2007, 02:29 PM
Ellie K, very good stuff about CAS.

The Rene Tebbel FEI verdict was challenged and subsequently overturned on technicalities -- IIRC, about testing the substance. The McLain Ward case depended on some subjective/eyewitness evidence -- who saw what, whether it could be proven that the plastic shards fell from the boot, etc. Yes, both cases were intentional; if what the show stewards said took place, then it must constitute deliberate abuse. It wasn't negligence that allegedly put plastic shards in Ward's boots and it wasn't by chance that the white substance appeared on the coronary band of Tebbel's horse.

But this case is different in several important ways. There's no need to prove intent as the case is about negligence. The FEI definition of abuse in this instance is fairly well-defined. And there's about 30 seconds worth of video -- much more if you want to review the whole ride -- that shows what happened to the horse. Video evidence can be very persuasive in the courtroom and, in this case, the video seems to elicit an emotional reaction from the viewer (hence the discussions on this BB). Given that the CAS panel would be made up of non-equestrians -- who might not be so accustomed to watching a horse break down -- I think you could make a case that CAS would uphold the FEI verdict, especially if Landolt, the Roycrofts and the vets gave testimony at the hearing.

vineyridge
Jul. 23, 2007, 03:48 PM
I'm thinking that the emphasis the FEI put on the technical issue of the Appeal Committee at Rolex being the same as the GJ, and doing it at the very outset of the decision, might be the grounds on which they were willing to accept a "plea bargain".

Makes sense to me.

arnika
Jul. 23, 2007, 04:05 PM
Thank you Ellie k for a very clear explanation.

Paks
Jul. 23, 2007, 04:13 PM
I think that AT DID exhibit responsibility... she hasn't denied her mistake and has been up front about what happened. (maybe not to you personally... but then why should she talk to you?) What exactly is it that you want her to do? Crawl in a hole or give up riding all together? Is that what you consider being responsible?

No actually what I would like to see is something like this. --I regret my actions in the ride on LS. I let my competiveness and the nearness of the finish line cloud my judgement. I failed to listen to my horse as he tried to pull up and had a faltering stride. I make no excuses for my behavior at my level of riding I should have known better and done better by my mount. I assure you I have learned my lesson from this and will do what ever I can to make sure that I never make such a greavous error in the future and also do whatever I can to educate other riders to help prevent them from making an error similar to mine. followed by a plan of action as to how she intends to do that.

Then she would regain respect in my eyes instead of the -- I thought it was a boot a shoe, i couldn't tell the horse was lame, I don't have a benefit of a video when I ride candya$$ type excuses. Own up fully to the responsibility of what she did the choices she made and what she is going to do to change the future.

Sannois
Jul. 23, 2007, 04:22 PM
No actually what I would like to see is something like this. --I regret my actions in the ride on LS. I let my competiveness and the nearness of the finish line cloud my judgement. I failed to listen to my horse as he tried to pull up and had a faltering stride. I make no excuses for my behavior at my level of riding I should have known better and done better by my mount. I assure you I have learned my lesson from this and will do what ever I can to make sure that I never make such a greavous error in the future and also do whatever I can to educate other riders to help prevent them from making an error similar to mine. followed by a plan of action as to how she intends to do that.

Then she would regain respect in my eyes instead of the -- I thought it was a boot a shoe, i couldn't tell the horse was lame, I don't have a benefit of a video when I ride candya$$ type excuses. Own up fully to the responsibility of what she did the choices she made and what she is going to do to change the future.

When pigs fly! My respect for this person has gone way down. Actuallt she was never one of my faves anyway. But I never thought eventers were so single minded competitors that the glory of the win came first. I know for sure not all, But you just have to wonder.

arnika
Jul. 23, 2007, 04:29 PM
Excellently said, chaotic mind.

Ellie K
Jul. 23, 2007, 05:08 PM
oh no, JER I totally agree about upholding the actual abuse finding, I didn't mean CAS would throw that out. I think I muddied it up with my language and the salient example being not exactly the same thing. Somehow I think I'm being articulate at the time!! The issue with Cian O'Connor was that they might have overturned the actual verdict and thus he would keep his medal, that being the one thing the FEI could not allow. Vs. with this case I think the one thing the FEI could not allow was no suspension at all. So I believe firmly that CAS would NOT have overturned the actual finding of abuse, that was somewhat academic even to the FEI Tribunal. There was already a determination of abuse by the event officials--for even the FEI's Tribunal to reverse that would basically be rewriting the rule book, and that's not their business. And that applies even more so to CAS. So the abuse finding was consideration Part A (on p. 4). Consequently the real main issue to be decided concerned what they identified as Part B: whether or not there was intent, in order to determine how severe the sanction.

And the more I've thought about it I can't see the CAS, without that determination of intent, upholding even 6 months....because that's what Ward got. (unfortunately there really isn't much else to go on so it's a bit apples to oranges...but in a way that's a good thing). Half that at best would stick IMO, unless she was found to have actually caused the injury.

So if you can knock a month off what you think might possibly stick in CAS, allowing as well for "time served," and stay out of CAS altogether, I think you're at the very least preventing this very bad moment for the sport being further displayed, only to come out with about the same penalty if that, and at most you're ensuring there actually IS that penalty (meaning suspension, not just "guilty").

I still think it's a light penalty, and would generally speaking like to see much harsher penalties, but I think I understand why and I don't think it's a travesty of justice despite having been very surprised at first...subsequently I've been trying to look at it strictly legally, instead of through my emotional reaction to watching it live (and then having seen it again and again), which was very strong.

Winston's Mom
Jul. 23, 2007, 05:56 PM
Not my place to judge what AT did or did not feel that day and her verdict and suspension is a done deal, really pointless to rehash it over and over. Just a thought but if you are one of those who feel her penalty isn't harsh enough there are things you can do to send a message. BNRs who are not independently wealthy support themselves for the most part with clnics. That is their big money maker, followed by lessons. They don't make much if anything on training/competition horses. So, easy answer, if you are not happy, do not support her clinics, do not get coaching at events, and don't go to for lessons. Some riders are fortunate enough to have corp. sponsors, simple answer there, write to the sponsors and let them know how you feel, soon those dollars will dry up as well. The "little people" have more power than they realize, so use it or stop whining.

Ellie K
Jul. 23, 2007, 06:43 PM
But I do have one question--the FEI gave Bettina Hoy back her medal for subjectively not hearing the first bell and crossing the start line twice. The CAS took it away after the US and Britain appealed. So the CAS has been known to be tough on a rider who objectively breaks the rules. Why wouldn't they have looked at this matter as something similar?Ahhhh….Bettina-gate, I remember it fondly. CAS never ruled on Bettina's actual error, nor did the FEI ever have a hearing on it. It was a conflict between two sets of event officials, and what was at issue was whether the second set (Appeals Committee) had the jurisdiction to hear an appeal of the first set's (Ground Jury's) decision.

I have the ruling hiding somewhere but here is from the CAS statement post-ruling:
"The CAS panel has emphasised that it has only considered the jurisdiction issue and has not dealt with the merits of the Ground Jury’s ruling which has been made within its competence 'in the field of play.' "

So the basis of the GBR/FRA/USA appeal to CAS was that the issue fell under the category of "field of play," and there is no appeal to the Appeals Committee on matters concerning the "field of play." That is exclusively the Ground Jury's domain. The Appeals Committee felt they did have jurisdiction; they ruled that given the error the GJ made, which it was alleged contributed to the rider's error, it went beyond field of play into the area of interpretation of the rules, which IS within their jurisdiction. It is worth noting, which I did not appreciate at the time, that appeals committees are (or at least were!) in the habit of entertaining a whole range of appeals on various things, when in fact they should be kicking many of those back to the GJ, which must hear an objection to any of its decisions, assuming the procedures/rules for objections are followed. So the incorrect understanding/application had been pretty ingrained.

Actually IIRC the GJ did not assess the penalties at first, because of their error, but then FRA (?) objected, then GJ assessed the penalties, then the Germans lost their minds. I'd have to look at it again to be sure, maybe someone else remembers. I'm a little fuzzy on the whole layout and how it played out...I recall concluding that despite the GJ's errors, the first error still had to have been hers. Not 100% sure on that. But it was their decision to make, and that's all the CAS ruled on.

sm
Jul. 23, 2007, 06:56 PM
"The Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS), sitting in Athens, ruled Hoy should have suffered time penalties in Wednesday's show jumping final, costing her the individual gold and Germany the team title." http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics_2004/equestrian/3586618.stm



I saw her jump the round, the announcer knew immediately there was a problem, as did she when she lept off her horse afterwards and ran, not even so much as a pat to say "thank you," leaving the horse with the groom. The GJ picked up the error up fast enough:

"Germany won team and individual gold, then lost them an hour later when the grand jury gave Bettina Hoy a post-competition penalty in the show jumping. They then won them back again when an appeal committee overruled the grand jury. Three days later, Germany lost the two medals again when France, Britain and the United States won their appeal to sporting legal body CAS." http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/olympics/2004/08/30/bc.olympics.best/

vineyridge
Jul. 23, 2007, 09:04 PM
Speaking of the FEI, Rene Tebbel, Cian O'Connor and unnatural substances, did y'all see where David Duesser, the young German in the World Cup Show Jumping, was nabbed for drugging, but the FEI wasn't pursuing the matter because the B sample had not been properly secured and stored?

Who is in charge of that part of major competitions?

I'm certainly glad that Ellie K doesn't think that the ground jury's finding of abuse was *very* open to revision by the FEI, especially since the GJ and the Appeal Committee were one and the same.

Will they need to be different from now on?

And what in the world would Janie Atkinson have been likely to testify about? She was listed as one of those who gave witness statements.

breakthru
Jul. 23, 2007, 09:45 PM
I just want to second J Swan for a beautifully said post. I'm not going to get into this- but no matter what you think; whether she's careless and deserves more than her punishment or if you think she made an honest mistake- Everyone can learn something from this, and I hope they have. Support AT or don't. But beyond that, it's not worth the amount of excessive wrath that's been displayed. There are much, MUCH worse things going on in this world to be concerned about.

galwaybay
Jul. 23, 2007, 11:57 PM
Nonsense. This is not a token punishment. Any suspension is significant, will remain w/ the rider or trainer's record for the rest of their career. If you knew anything at all about the horse business, you can easily find out information on suspensions that happen to trainers, riders and owners in the horse racing field. 60 days is a very significant suspension period in this business and results in a significant loss of income, and it carries over to all of the racetracks. In the racing world you have to list any kind of suspension on your application for licensure in any state or country every time you apply or re-apply for an owner's, trainer's, riders/drivers license. Under no circumstances I can imagine would this be considered a "slap on the wrist". It's a significant penalty which I personally feel is unwarranted given the uncertainty, the ambiguousness, the gray areas as attested to in the hearing. In the racing world a definitive positive test with a seriously regarded illegal substance would warrant such a suspension, or a multiplicy of repeated infractions such as consistent positive tests, showing a pattern of attempting to cheat. This is not nearly approaching that standard.
These posts that are constantly trying to upbraid the FEI, the USEF, and other extremely knowledgeable and experienced people are not amusing. They are quite ignorant. If you do not know what you are talking about, especially on the world equestrian level, shut up. You do tremendous damage to the sport and to American equestrians competing at the international level, far more than you know and way beyond what happened that day.
JMO!!!:(

Very well said - you are so right.

In the case of Bettina Hoy - she made a mistake - cross the timers twice - initially took away medal, protested, got it back, US and other team protested lost the medal - the US and other teams were correct in their protest. Her horse also tested positive for an illegal substance as did Ludger Beerbaum's - Hoy had listed the drug (topical) am not sure about Beerbaum's but pretty much the same type scenario. Cian O'Connor lost his medal - the only medal Ireland has won in ages - and he did everything he was supposed to do - the horse had suffered an injury months prior to the Olympics, was given a sedative so the horse could receive treatment at a swim center. The treatment/sedative was according to he and his vet's understanding were within the drug protocol guidelines. So here is a guy treating his horse like he should and 3 months later bammo - tests positive - and you say 3 months isn't enough - he lost the respect of much of his countrymen for crying out loud.

My horse was recently randomly tested at a show, now he is on absolutely nothing, however, he could have munched on someone's poppyseed muffin, bagel, had some mountain dew - all seemingly harmless substances but guess what - they could cause him to test positive...

tulkas
Jul. 24, 2007, 12:50 AM
Not to take anything away from Mara. I have met her and she is a charming young woman. But just maybe, she pulled up because the horse has bowed twice before and she knew what to expect. And if she is such a consumate horsewoman, why is she pushing a horse with that sort of vet history around international courses?

Tulkas:confused:

Gnep
Jul. 24, 2007, 12:53 AM
Mind you guys,
this is international law, based on the swiss law I don't think their is a plea bargain as in the US. The Swiss Law was mentioned in the finding.

Considering who spoke for and who spoke against and who won, tells the story.
AT won, its a hint...................

snoopy
Jul. 24, 2007, 12:48 PM
Mind you guys,
this is international law, based on the swiss law I don't think their is a plea bargain as in the US. The Swiss Law was mentioned in the finding.

Considering who spoke for and who spoke against and who won, tells the story.
AT won, its a hint...................


Won "what"?!!!:confused: The finding of abuse still holds whether it was intentional or not....but I think nobody comes out a winner. With regards who spoke in favour of her...well that is not saying much with regards to what happened.

Tiki
Jul. 24, 2007, 02:16 PM
At's great sense of remorse seems more to be over getting caught than of what she did to the horse. At the end of the video, she hopped off the horse and looked around at the crowd and the people running toward her. She never even looked at the horse until everyone else rushed up. And why would she appeal a 2 month suspension with no major competitions (aside from Luhmullen). She basically got away with ........

marta
Jul. 24, 2007, 02:46 PM
i can't stop reading them although i have to say that i find it shocking how judgmental people get.

tiki, you can tell all that from just her getting off and looking around? someone else could argue that maybe she was looking for her crew to come and help her, maybe she still wasn't sure what was happening and was looking for someone (judge? observer?) to say something. there are so many other possible conclusions to draw not all of them necessarily negative.
and what do you mean remorse over getting caught? you don't seriously think for a moment that she thought she could push a lame horse w/ a serious injury over the finish line and no one would notice? and why would she? don't these horses have to pass a vetting in order to get a 'completion' (whatever the eventing term for that is)? what would be driving her to ignore her horse's injury and keep going which #1 could result in loosing the horse and #2 wouldn't give her any credit for finish the course anyway?


the whole situation sucks! she f-d up. she lost an awesome partner. i'm sure she's re-living this situation over and over. i'm sure she's learned a lesson and hopefully so have others.

but to continue finding fault w/ every single move this woman has made is going too far...

olympicprincess
Jul. 24, 2007, 03:21 PM
Not my place to judge what AT did or did not feel that day and her verdict and suspension is a done deal, really pointless to rehash it over and over. Just a thought but if you are one of those who feel her penalty isn't harsh enough there are things you can do to send a message. BNRs who are not independently wealthy support themselves for the most part with clnics. That is their big money maker, followed by lessons. They don't make much if anything on training/competition horses. So, easy answer, if you are not happy, do not support her clinics, do not get coaching at events, and don't go to for lessons. Some riders are fortunate enough to have corp. sponsors, simple answer there, write to the sponsors and let them know how you feel, soon those dollars will dry up as well. The "little people" have more power than they realize, so use it or stop whining.
This is what I was thinking Winston's Mom. Will her clinics, lessons and training be as busy as it once was? :confused:

Just maybe though since it's not like she forgot how to train. :sigh:

Tiki
Jul. 24, 2007, 03:32 PM
Yeah Marta I can argue anything I want. What makes your argument any more valid than mine? and
you don't seriously think for a moment that she thought she could push a lame horse w/ a serious injury over the finish line ?Well, she did!
don't these horses have to pass a vetting in order to get a 'completion' Yes, and PLENTY of supporters have already said elsewhere that she probably thought she could ice it and continue on the next day.

galwaybay
Jul. 24, 2007, 09:37 PM
Well, she did!Yes, and PLENTY of supporters have already said elsewhere that she probably thought she could ice it and continue on the next day.

You cannot be serious. Yeah maybe she might have thought she could've iced it- but she still would have to present at the final vet inspection.

deltawave
Jul. 24, 2007, 10:02 PM
No actually what I would like to see is something like this. --I regret my actions in the ride on LS. I let my competiveness and the nearness of the finish line cloud my judgement. I failed to listen to my horse as he tried to pull up and had a faltering stride.

I may be splitting hairs here, but this sounds to me awfully like what AT DID say, if you read the ENTIRE FEI report and her statements. Other than the "I let my competitiveness....cloud my judgement" bit. Which you must admit really makes NO SENSE AT ALL because they don't give out ribbons for finishing XC in first place. However, if she really said precisely what you WANT her to say, are you really prepared to forgive and forget and respect again? If so, great...from what I've read and construed from most of the more passionate responders, NOTHING will ever mollify them or change their thinking. Which always makes me cringe a little--to admit that NOTHING will change one's mind, ever, is to classify oneself as completely inflexible and close-minded. Something I always endeavor to shy away from. :)


Not to take anything away from Mara. I have met her and she is a charming young woman. But just maybe, she pulled up because the horse has bowed twice before and she knew what to expect. And if she is such a consumate horsewoman, why is she pushing a horse with that sort of vet history around international courses?

Jeez, damned if you do, damned if you don't!


Yes, and PLENTY of supporters have already said elsewhere that she probably thought she could ice it and continue on the next day.

So this, what, third-hand hearsay is proof enough of AT's motive to cover up this injury and try to keep going the next day? :lol:

HotIITrot
Jul. 24, 2007, 10:14 PM
...from what I've read and construed from most of the more passionate responders, NOTHING will ever mollify them or change their thinking. Which always makes me cringe a little--to admit that NOTHING will change one's mind, ever, is to classify oneself as completely inflexible and close-minded. Something I always endeavor to shy away from. :)

Ditto

Paks
Jul. 24, 2007, 10:15 PM
You cannot be serious. Yeah maybe she might have thought she could've iced it- but she still would have to present at the final vet inspection.

And it wouldn't be the first time a horse needed serious and immediate medical treatment at the kentucky horse park after cross country and go on and win the event. The most famous rider to do that has a life size bronze statue of himself there.

Maybe she was hoping for that result.

BarbB
Jul. 24, 2007, 10:25 PM
And it wouldn't be the first time a horse needed serious and immediate medical treatment at the kentucky horse park after cross country and go on and win the event. The most famous rider to do that has a life size bronze statue of himself there.


aaa...maaaaay...zzzing
Would you mind starting a separate thread for each rider that you are intent on trashing....makes it easier for the spectators at this train wreck to keep score.

flyingchange
Jul. 24, 2007, 10:30 PM
I may be splitting hairs here, but this sounds to me awfully like what AT DID say, if you read the ENTIRE FEI report and her statements. Other than the "I let my competitiveness....cloud my judgement" bit. Which you must admit really makes NO SENSE AT ALL because they don't give out ribbons for finishing XC in first place. However, if she really said precisely what you WANT her to say, are you really prepared to forgive and forget and respect again? If so, great...from what I've read and construed from most of the more passionate responders, NOTHING will ever mollify them or change their thinking. Which always makes me cringe a little--to admit that NOTHING will change one's mind, ever, is to classify oneself as completely inflexible and close-minded. Something I always endeavor to shy away from. :)





Jeez, damned if you do, damned if you don't!



So this, what, third-hand hearsay is proof enough of AT's motive to cover up this injury and try to keep going the next day? :lol:


Let's see. I'll never change my mind about a lot of things. Like that I think slavery in any form is wrong. That I think women should have the right to choose. That I think freedom of speech is an inalienable right. That abuse is abuse is abuse is abuse - and that in the AT case, the punishment does not fit the crime. But I guess I am just a completely inflexible and close minded person.

Paks
Jul. 24, 2007, 11:10 PM
aaa...maaaaay...zzzing
Would you mind starting a separate thread for each rider that you are intent on trashing....makes it easier for the spectators at this train wreck to keep score.

What trashing it is a statement of fact

Might Tango needed oxygen and was suffering from heat exhustion at the end of cross country during the World Equestrian Championships in 1978. They nursed him back to health over night. He passed the vet the next morning and won the event. You can read the Time article about it. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,948710-1,00.html

And it is a fact that there is a bronze statue of Bruce Davidson at the Ky Horse Park.

Neither of the above is an opinion they are facts

So if it has been done before why wouldn't someone think they could accomplish something similar? This is an opinion

Paks
Jul. 24, 2007, 11:47 PM
I may be splitting hairs here, but this sounds to me awfully like what AT DID say, if you read the ENTIRE FEI report and her statements. Other than the "I let my competitiveness....cloud my judgement" bit. Which you must admit really makes NO SENSE AT ALL because they don't give out ribbons for finishing XC in first place. However, if she really said precisely what you WANT her to say, are you really prepared to forgive and forget and respect again?

Actually I did read both and what are in both are lame excuses. In her public apology, on her website, it is this in particular "Had I known that Le Samurai was injured in any way, I would have pulled up immediately. In the sport of Eventing, the welfare of the horse must be paramount at all times" That I veiw as a lame excuse and an attempt to dimish her responsiblity in the incident. The horse was head bobbing lame the head the was bobbing was 2 feet in front her. The horse that was running smoothly until the misstep and then was lurching and breaking gate. Both obvious indications that the horse is probably injured in someway. But I will admidt that by her apology it is only if she had "known"the horse was injured that she would pull up. Which of course takes pulling up to check it out sooo ... you get the drift. because of this I also see no real indication that she would pull up on a mere probability of injury. Neither in her testomony nor her official apology. It doesn't seem like she really intends to change anything in the future.

So the two main points I would look for 1 an admission of wrong doing, fully accepting responsibility with no excuses ("Had I known that Le Samurai was injured in any way, I would have pulled up immediately" is an excuse. A D level pony clubber would have suspected an injury) and 2 no plan was stated as far as to what she intends to change to prevent future occurances are both missing.

As far as what she could do now to change my mind well since I have posted what an example of what a genuine, sincere and effective admission of wrong doing would be. It's kind of late now. A bit like having to tell your husband he needs to say he loves you. The sincerity just goes right out of it after that.

So I guess now it is going to have to actions instead of words that make the difference and that I am afraid is going to take time. It's a longer road but one that has been sucessfully navigated before.

Sannois
Jul. 25, 2007, 06:58 AM
Actually I did read both and what are in both are lame excuses. In her public apology, on her website, it is this in particular "Had I known that Le Samurai was injured in any way, I would have pulled up immediately. In the sport of Eventing, the welfare of the horse must be paramount at all times" That I veiw as a lame excuse and an attempt to dimish her responsiblity in the incident. The horse was head bobbing lame the head the was bobbing was 2 feet in front her. The horse that was running smoothly until the misstep and then was lurching and breaking gate. Both obvious indications that the horse is probably injured in someway. But I will admidt that by her apology it is only if she had "known"the horse was injured that she would pull up. Which of course takes pulling up to check it out sooo ... you get the drift. because of this I also see no real indication that she would pull up on a mere probability of injury. Neither in her testomony nor her official apology. It doesn't seem like she really intends to change anything in the future.

So the two main points I would look for 1 an admission of wrong doing, fully accepting responsibility with no excuses ("Had I known that Le Samurai was injured in any way, I would have pulled up immediately" is an excuse. A D level pony clubber would have suspected an injury) and 2 no plan was stated as far as to what she intends to change to prevent future occurances are both missing.

As far as what she could do now to change my mind well since I have posted what an example of what a genuine, sincere and effective admission of wrong doing would be. It's kind of late now. A bit like having to tell your husband he needs to say he loves you. The sincerity just goes right out of it after that.

So I guess now it is going to have to actions instead of words that make the difference and that I am afraid is going to take time. It's a longer road but one that has been sucessfully navigated before.
as well. I went to her website and read her apology.. It left me flat. Sorry I have lost all respect. My opinion. one I think many riders share.

deltawave
Jul. 25, 2007, 07:14 AM
What is it with references to slavery and women's rights on these threads? I'm not talking inveterate evils that are condemned by societies when I'm saying we should avoid closing our minds utterly. I'm talking about judging the actions of others without being in their shoes and without even ACKNOWLEDGING that there are 2 sides (at least) to every story.

Unless you think AT did what she did because of some sociopathic need to cause pain or because she has no consideration for any animal, the slavery comparison is specious, specious, specious. Naturally it's expected to be inflexible on matters of human rights, etc. Those are social norms and matters of an entirely different species. This is something entirely different.

Paks
Jul. 25, 2007, 06:02 PM
I'm not talking inveterate evils that are condemned by societies when I'm saying we should avoid closing our minds utterly. I'm talking about judging the actions of others without being in their shoes and without even ACKNOWLEDGING that there are 2 sides (at least) to every story.



You know I saw someone really try that. I showed my vet the ride on the DVD from the 4th to last jump to the end. She saw the stumble went OMG, she saw the breaks in stride she saw Amy turn all with an expression of disbelief on her face. Afterwards she kind of shook herself and said "well I really shouldn't judge I wasn't there. ... I can't believe she didn't pull up. Nope nope I shouldn't judge" She went to work on my horse about 10 minutes into that she goes "I just can't believe it" thinking my horse had taken a turn for the worse I asked what was wrong. She said "that ride I can't belive she jumped that jump when the horse was that lame" then back to "no no I shouldn't judge." Right before she left the same thing happened again. The shock comes out the attempt to pull herself up and say she shouldn't judge. I am really wondering how long she fought that battle with herself. Self imposed cognitive dissonance is really hard to do. Especially for someone who is generally rational.

Now if you have a personal relationship or stake in something it is amazing what you can ignore. It's also amazing what comes out of peoples mouths when they are in full cognitive dissonance my personal favorite is "but we don't discriminate by religion you just have to be a christian" I am pretty sure that woman still believes today that's not dicrimination.

This is much like that there are those who will back her no mater what and those who will villify her no matter what. I have been waiting and quite frankly hoping for a decent resolution. But instead what we got looks like a cat trying to cover up on linoleum. Lots of motion little effect.

As far as the whole until you have been in her shoes bit. Well I don't have to be a CEO to judge the robbing a pension fund and I don't need to be an upper level rider to judge the riding of a lame horse over a 4 starfence.

deltawave
Jul. 25, 2007, 06:47 PM
I actually do think cognitive dissonance is some of what AT is displaying. Unfortunately, it's not like an LED goes on inside our heads and blinks when we're doing it. :)

I also think cognitive dissonance is responsible for a lot of the reaction to this event. We "forget" (I hesitate to say this) that Barbaro, INARGUABLY a hero to many and a fine horse worthy of every good thing ever said about him, almost certainly suffered a LOT more pain for a LOT longer time than Le Samurai did. However, we find it "justifiable" because the heroic efforts of his owners and vets were clearly (although this is not universal sentiment) "correct" and "humane". Right? Wrong? Not for me to say. In fact, impossible to declare with complete confidence one way or another.

Not to torture the subject, but we do have amazing ways of making perception and reality lie comfortably together within our own heads. :)

KellyS
Jul. 25, 2007, 07:59 PM
We "forget" (I hesitate to say this) that Barbaro, INARGUABLY a hero to many and a fine horse worthy of every good thing ever said about him, almost certainly suffered a LOT more pain for a LOT longer time than Le Samurai did.

I think it was made incredibly clear by Dr. Richardson and Barbaro's owners that as soon as the horse began to suffer, they made the decision to let him go.

When Traveler was being treated at New Bolton, his comfort and quality of life was always at the forefront and when it became obvious that we could no longer guarantee that, the veterinarian treating him at New Bolton was the first to tell us that letting him go before he truly began to suffer was the right decision to make.

What I do know is that Barbaro's owners and the people involved with him ALWAYS had his best interests at heart. I'm sorry, but after watching AT continue to urge a very lame horse (who was begging to be allowed to stop) on over another fence and through the finish, I cannot say the same for her. :(

pwynnnorman
Jul. 25, 2007, 08:31 PM
I took two horses to Badminton in 1992 when I was 23. One broke down on the steeplechase and the other broke its neck in the lake. I came home with an empty lorry. One lost a shoe and maybe I should have known it wasn't feeling right. I blamed myself. I gave myself a hard time afterwards. Now I realize if I have a horse with an injury, I'm lucky. It may miss Badminton, but it will live to compete another day."

William Fox-Pitt, Eventing Magazine (August 2007, pg. 12).

Nothing about the AT incident is new or unique--except for the external circumstances: the venue, the timing, the location on course, the witnesses, the internet, the video...

How many riders have to come out of the woodwork admitting that they have made similar mistakes before people are willing to let this go?

Sannois
Jul. 25, 2007, 08:33 PM
What is it with references to slavery and women's rights on these threads? I'm not talking inveterate evils that are condemned by societies when I'm saying we should avoid closing our minds utterly. I'm talking about judging the actions of others without being in their shoes and without even ACKNOWLEDGING that there are 2 sides (at least) to every story.

Unless you think AT did what she did because of some sociopathic need to cause pain or because she has no consideration for any animal, the slavery comparison is specious, specious, specious. Naturally it's expected to be inflexible on matters of human rights, etc. Those are social norms and matters of an entirely different species. This is something entirely different.
For the need to win. She played her cards, rolled the dice took her chances that it was nothing and she lost! Plain and simple!

Sannois
Jul. 25, 2007, 08:35 PM
Lets look at it a different way. As competitive as you are you are a true horseman in my opinion. I can never see you continuing on With Gwennie if she bobbled that way, You would be off in a heart beat. Am I wrong?? I dont think so! :no:

LLDM
Jul. 25, 2007, 09:04 PM
Quote:
I took two horses to Badminton in 1992 when I was 23. One broke down on the steeplechase and the other broke its neck in the lake. I came home with an empty lorry. One lost a shoe and maybe I should have known it wasn't feeling right. I blamed myself. I gave myself a hard time afterwards. Now I realize if I have a horse with an injury, I'm lucky. It may miss Badminton, but it will live to compete another day."
William Fox-Pitt, Eventing Magazine (August 2007, pg. 12).

Nothing about the AT incident is new or unique--except for the external circumstances: the venue, the timing, the location on course, the witnesses, the internet, the video...

How many riders have to come out of the woodwork admitting that they have made similar mistakes before people are willing to let this go?


I think it's more than just about AT. I think this incident can be described as a tipping point. I think that many people are concerned that eventing is running a bit too close to the edge these days and want to see it pull back a bit.

Another young eventing rider has died in Sweden ( http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/competitionnews/391/131947.html ). So, yes, everyone is on overload. So the upset at what might have been preventable persists.

We have to do better - somehow.

SCFarm

deltawave
Jul. 25, 2007, 09:21 PM
Kim, unless you know EXACTLY what AT was thinking at the moment her horse bobbled, it's really quite impossible to say with the certainty you apparently have that what she did was motivated by competitiveness.

As to what I WOULD DO, I have to say I do not know. I have never had a horse break down under me. As to what I would LIKE TO THINK I WOULD DO, of course I would envision myself leaping off immediately. Who wouldn't, for pity's sake, other than a sociopath? :confused:

Glad you don't think I would do anything counter to the black-and-white worldview you have, but hey, I was the one who rode a horse through phase C at a 3-day event who was in the process of tying up. Did I know it? Nope, not until I got off. Not a clue. Does it torture me? Yup. Every time I think of it.

Would I ever have envisioned myself making a mistake that cost someone their life? No. Have I done so in spite of my best intentions, training and experience? Yes. :no: So hate me, revile me, castigate me for it. You wouldn't be doing anything I didn't do to myself. But first why don't you try walking in my shoes, or AT's shoes. It's all I'm saying. If you really and truly are convinced you know EXACTLY what her thoughts and motivations were, then, well, congratulations on your clairvoyant powers. :no: I don't pretend to KNOW what CANNOT be known, and don't see the world in quite such black and white terms.

So there you go, I'm evil. Better change my pigeonhole. :no:

snoopy
Jul. 25, 2007, 09:52 PM
William Fox-Pitt, Eventing Magazine (August 2007, pg. 12).

Nothing about the AT incident is new or unique--except for the external circumstances: the venue, the timing, the location on course, the witnesses, the internet, the video...

How many riders have to come out of the woodwork admitting that they have made similar mistakes before people are willing to let this go?


How long would it take YOU to get over it if Karen made the same error on your pony?:confused: And I would like to point out that my comment is not made to be flip or nasty. Would you like LS's owners step up to the plate to defend her action on the day? I do not know if I would....

deltawave
Jul. 25, 2007, 09:55 PM
I don't think anyone ever really "gets over" a tragedy, snoopy. The point is, however, that life DOES go on and holding a perpetual grudge isn't the path to feeling better about these things.

snoopy
Jul. 25, 2007, 10:06 PM
No I agree with you....but I think it hard for some to let go because this error in judgement had such devestating consequences. And it hits a raw nerve for those who like to think that they would put their horse's welfare before ANYTHING. But I believe this has gone on for as long as it has because of the way in which it was PERCEIVED to be dealt with.

Although there are many things about the whole situation that I am unhappy with....the fact is....it is what it is. Nothing more can be done, said, discussed etc. It is over and hopefully everyone can look inward and learn from this. But I believe that it is foolish to think that this type of thing will not happen again....unfortunately injuries will continue to ocurr where horses are concerned.

lstevenson
Jul. 25, 2007, 10:54 PM
Kim, unless you know EXACTLY what AT was thinking at the moment her horse bobbled, it's really quite impossible to say with the certainty you apparently have that what she did was motivated by competitiveness.



What on earth other motivation could there be?

monstrpony
Jul. 26, 2007, 08:42 AM
What on earth other motivation could there be?

I believe it's been stated that her "motivation" was a misunderstanding of what the situation was--she did not realize the horse was so badly injured.

Whether that's rational or not, whether you like it or not, whether you believe it or not, there IS another motivation to consider.

The thing I keep coming back to is that no matter how competitive she is, no matter how driven she is, no matter how tunneled her vision was at the moment, she is NOT stupid enough to try to stuff a horse with a serious front leg injury over a 4* fence. There is no motivation big enough to make that a rational choice. Which is what allows me to search for another motivation.

Paks
Jul. 26, 2007, 08:42 AM
Nothing about the AT incident is new or unique--except for the external circumstances: the venue, the timing, the location on course, the witnesses, the internet, the video...

How many riders have to come out of the woodwork admitting that they have made similar mistakes before people are willing to let this go?

Just gotta love this reasoning. A wish for a return to simpler times when only the elite had access to the facts and the unwashed masses only got the predigested official opinion. Which I believe in this case would have been something like "it was discovered after cross country that LS was injured". Actual eyewitnesses who might speak up would be dismissed as cranks their letters to the editor censored. Oh curse you video where people can watch what happened and GASP judge for themselves. Oh horrible internet with it's free exchange of ideas where people no longer have to be geographically colocated to communicate and find like minded people. Oh despicable first amendment that gives them the right to do so.

Life was so much simipler when you only had to bring political pressure on a few people to prevent all the facts from being made public. With the internet those pesky facts, opinions and information spread and are so hard to contain. It was so much easier when we could just meet behind closed doors and make the little I'll look the other way on this, if you look the other way for me later, deals.

Sorry Pwy we are in the information age. Short of an apocaliptic occurance it's pretty much going to stay that way. So the best you can do is suck it up and deal with it. The old gentleman's club atmosphere in our sport is going to have to change. The dues paying membership is able to get hold of the facts, make up their own minds and make their voice heard. You have seen for yourself what happens when the higher ups try to push their carefully spun version in the face of hard evidence.

The internet and the information age has many advantages. One falsehoods are easier to disprove, as it is so easy to do fact checking. It also allows people float out ideas and see how they are recieved. I don't see you decrying the sports illustrated thread that wants to promote KOC and Teddie. While adverse facts and information my be painful. I have yet to see someone who complains of their mistakes being made public object when their triumphs are reported. Do you have a problem with people having a copy of Teddie's marvolous round at KY? Then you shouldn't have a problem with people having AT's. To say one is okay and not the other is called censorship

On thing that will come out of all the publicity is riders are going to be more concerned with the condition of their horse. If this change is made for their horse's sake, or for their own, it really doesn't matter the results will be the same.

BarbB
Jul. 26, 2007, 08:51 AM
Short of an apocaliptic occurance

apocalyptic

magnolia73
Jul. 26, 2007, 08:56 AM
I guess she got her wrist slap- not very punitive. Her reasoning, while valid and I feel sorry for her, is pretty sad. I would hope that **** eventers are mentally and physically fit enough to be aware of the horse under them at all times, and if not, should not be in the game at that level. I've done other sports and experienced fatigue and understand that it can indeed blur judgement.... that's why fitness and training are so key.

The biggest loser is the sport. So often the horses are hurt through mistakes like bad distances, approaches and footing. Poor fence design. This horse was likely fatally injured by someone not aware enough to do their job.

pwynnnorman
Jul. 26, 2007, 09:16 AM
I don't think anyone ever really "gets over" a tragedy, snoopy. The point is, however, that life DOES go on and holding a perpetual grudge isn't the path to feeling better about these things.

That's what I meant, too. Not saying excuse her--or anyone. Just pointing out that this has been going on since the sport began, so targeting AT and AT only, as though her circumstance is something extraordinarily different (it IS a little different) is less than productive.

lstevenson
Jul. 26, 2007, 11:17 AM
I believe it's been stated that her "motivation" was a misunderstanding of what the situation was--she did not realize the horse was so badly injured.



I know that's her STORY. But I think very few people buy it.

Can you imagine the rush of being a highly competitive person in first place at Rolex and, after having a great x-c round, having the finish line in sight. The competitive side of her overrode any rational thought about what was going on, or what was the right thing to do. IMO that is the only explanation that makes sense.

lstevenson
Jul. 26, 2007, 11:22 AM
Quote:
I took two horses to Badminton in 1992 when I was 23. One broke down on the steeplechase and the other broke its neck in the lake. I came home with an empty lorry. One lost a shoe and maybe I should have known it wasn't feeling right. I blamed myself. I gave myself a hard time afterwards. Now I realize if I have a horse with an injury, I'm lucky. It may miss Badminton, but it will live to compete another day."
William Fox-Pitt, Eventing Magazine (August 2007, pg. 12).

Nothing about the AT incident is new or unique--except for the external circumstances: the venue, the timing, the location on course, the witnesses, the internet, the video...

How many riders have to come out of the woodwork admitting that they have made similar mistakes before people are willing to let this go?




I don't get the comparison at all. He did not keep going with a horse that was three legged lame. He felt his horse was not quite right, but that in no way compares to AT's situation.

monstrpony
Jul. 26, 2007, 11:24 AM
The competitive side of her overrode any rational thought about what was going on, or what was the right thing to do.

You honestly think she said to herself "hell, I may get killed jumping this horse over that fence on a trashed leg, but it's worth it because if I don't die, I still might win Rolex!"??

No, I think, for *whatever* reason--and doubtless, it was a bad one--she didn't mentally process the gravity of the situation. At some level, she was unaware of it.

I still condemn her for the fact and consequences of that faliure of her mental processes, but I don't believe it makes her an inherently evil person (I don't have enough evidence to make that judgement, though I certainly have a lot more than I had before Rolex).

I think we're basically agreeing about this situation, though each of us has a slightly different flavor to it.

But I'm game to just let it go. It's time, and this horse is quite dead, literally and figuratively.

mbarrett
Jul. 26, 2007, 11:26 AM
Darn, I thought this thread would disappear off the eventing page. I've watched it slowly sink toward the bottom of the topics and now it pops up like an ugly carp.

Throw it back and fish for something more interesting.

lstevenson
Jul. 26, 2007, 11:33 AM
You honestly think she said to herself "hell, I may get killed jumping this horse over that fence on a trashed leg, but it's worth it because if I don't die, I still might win Rolex!"??


No, what I said was "The competitive side of her overrode any rational thought about what was going on, or what was the right thing to do. "

That means that their were probably NO rational thoughts going through her head about this situation. I think her competitive desire made her 'block it out' and 'feel like it wasn't really happening'. That's my opinion.

And I too, do not think she is a horrible person just because of one mistake. I just feel like she should pay sufficiently for her mistake.

deltawave
Jul. 26, 2007, 12:17 PM
Whatever we all THINK her motivations are/were, none of us can ever really know. Not very many of our decisions are based on one single, simple line of thinking...we are far more complex than that.

Either way, what difference does it make? If it was 10% competitiveness and 90% lapse of judgment vs. 50-50, 70-30, or 19-81, would that make a difference? Or will the sharks only stop circling if she freely admits to what people apparently want to hear: that it was wanton, premeditated, purposeful cruelty? :rolleyes:

That makes NO rational sense to me, but it seems to be what people very badly want to hear. :no:

N&B&T
Jul. 26, 2007, 12:31 PM
Whatever we all THINK her motivations are/were, none of us can ever really know....

Including the FEI.

N&B&T
Jul. 26, 2007, 12:33 PM
What on earth other motivation could there be?

Yes, it's hard to imagine she wouldn't have pulled up if this occurred during a schooling session...

zagafi
Jul. 26, 2007, 12:42 PM
Yes, it's hard to imagine she wouldn't have pulled up if this occurred during a schooling session...

And yet, what purpose would she have had pushing him if she KNEW he was injured? He wouldn't have passed the vet check the next day, so what benefit would there have been to *willfully* push a horse she "knew" to be injured(which seems to be the assumption many are making)? She made a mistake, a horrible one, but nonetheless a mistake. But some folks still need their pound of flesh, I guess. Ugh.

indigoecho
Jul. 26, 2007, 12:59 PM
I don't want a pound of flesh, I feel really awful for Amy. I do think she had to know something was wrong and she took a gamble that it would be ok. Isn't that what people do when they guess "maybe he threw a shoe/stung himself/lost a boot...etc? If you aren't sure and you keep going to see what happens, I think you are gambling a bit. Especially at that level. I believe her when she says she didn't know he was seriously injured, I don't think she is a monster. But I think there is a flawed mentality that unless it is a serious injury it is ok to gamble in the situation. I'm sure the comparison has been made, but Mara Dean pulled her horse up mid round because she felt something was off and I think she made the right decision. Now people will argue until the cows come home whether or not she did it because of the recent scrutiny on Amy, but I think you can look at it two ways. If Mara would have pulled up regardless, good for her, I think she has the right priorities. If she pulled up because she was afraid of ending up like Amy, then hopefully something positive has come out of this whole debacle. Her horse was hurt and she made the right decision. Maybe more people will err on the side of caution and that can only benefit the horses.

Sannois
Jul. 26, 2007, 02:04 PM
Kim, unless you know EXACTLY what AT was thinking at the moment her horse bobbled, it's really quite impossible to say with the certainty you apparently have that what she did was motivated by competitiveness.

As to what I WOULD DO, I have to say I do not know. I have never had a horse break down under me. As to what I would LIKE TO THINK I WOULD DO, of course I would envision myself leaping off immediately. Who wouldn't, for pity's sake, other than a sociopath? :confused:

Glad you don't think I would do anything counter to the black-and-white worldview you have, but hey, I was the one who rode a horse through phase C at a 3-day event who was in the process of tying up. Did I know it? Nope, not until I got off. Not a clue. Does it torture me? Yup. Every time I think of it.

Would I ever have envisioned myself making a mistake that cost someone their life? No. Have I done so in spite of my best intentions, training and experience? Yes. :no: So hate me, revile me, castigate me for it. You wouldn't be doing anything I didn't do to myself. But first why don't you try walking in my shoes, or AT's shoes. It's all I'm saying. If you really and truly are convinced you know EXACTLY what her thoughts and motivations were, then, well, congratulations on your clairvoyant powers. :no: I don't pretend to KNOW what CANNOT be known, and don't see the world in quite such black and white terms.

So there you go, I'm evil. Better change my pigeonhole. :no:
I still like you and respect you! Sorry! :) We just have different views and thats what makes the world go round.
;):yes:

Paks
Jul. 26, 2007, 05:38 PM
That's what I meant, too. Not saying excuse her--or anyone. Just pointing out that this has been going on since the sport began, so targeting AT and AT only, as though her circumstance is something extraordinarily different (it IS a little different) is less than productive.

Yes and now the problem is getting highlighted. Your reasoning is like the person stopped for speeding who says but what about the 3 cars that passed me 2 miles back. Sorry your car is the one the radar gun picked up.

This has become a line in the sand issue. We are not happy the elite in our sport tried to cover it up. Tell us we had no right to judge, gave us explainations that were blatently false, say that because the person involved was an upper level rider the abuse rule shouldn't have been applied. The FEI ruling made one thing very apparent it is not your actions but who you are and who you know that counts.

For me this is not about AT any more it's about the system being broke and broke big time. Right now I don't feel there is anyone in the USEA that I could trust to give an honest, non political, non cronyism opinion. or make a truely unbiased decision. I just don't trust them. I don't trust them to watch out for the welfare of our sport, I don't trust them to properly assess a riders abilities both in their capacity in the USEA and on a personal level. If they endoresed some one or something I would at best have a neutral reaction to that endorsement more likely a negative one. That is some real colateral damage.

I do not feel the USEF and the FEI is capable of properly policing our sport. You are right Pwy AT is just the tip of the iceburg, but just because something has happened before doesn't mean we need to continue to let it happen. It is time to send a message that we are not just sheep for them to shear with fees and donation requests, as we blindly follow them, never questioning their judgement.

Right now I am really trying to think up the best way we can send that wake up call, other than to send any monies earmarked for team support to the HSUS instead. Any ideas?

Sandy M
Jul. 26, 2007, 06:38 PM
For what it's worth, and despite the relatively light penalty, did not the veterinary report that the panel or whomever reviewed have language to the effect that it was "inconceivable that she could not have known something was wrong"???

I'd like to say, "It's over, walk away," but one does wonder what the message sent is. It was a mistake, no fault, everyone feels bad, move on, or....you can push the limits because unless it's something really obvious like beating a horse, there isn't going to be much of a penalty???

I WANT to believe that AT truly thought it "probably isn't anything serious." Indeed, knowing you have to present a sound horse the next day before SJ certainly makes one think that MIGHT have been her thought process, BUT.... I can feel the slightest bobble my horse makes - whether in the area, on the trail, or cross country (I evented through Prelim), so despite WANTING to believe otherwise, I do find it hard to believe that she "didn't know, didn't have a video (!!!!!), etc." is a sufficient explanation/apology. I HAVE pulled my horse up on cross-country, checked it out, suffered the time penalties. *shrug* It's what you do. Or at least, it's what I DO (did - don't event any more).

It's a real mess, and emotionally wrenching from all directions, for/ against/don't know/etc.

flyingchange
Jul. 26, 2007, 08:06 PM
i dunno. I started getting back into my spring/summer conditioning program in early April and was pretty excited about the season ahead. And then this incident occured and really knocked the wind out of my sails. Since watching that video I have gradually found myself less and less motivated to continue competing in this sport. The FEI's decision hasn't helped. USEA seems spineless in all of this. The spirit of this sport seems dead to me and so I just don't know if I will be entering future events.

Calvincrowe
Jul. 27, 2007, 12:04 AM
I've lurked and read many of these threads on Amy. She's a local gal, made good, who had a terrible event occur to her horse, while under extreme pressure. I feel deeply sorry for her and LS. I am glad that the wheels of the established legal system have ground out a decision. I am sorry that some of her detractors cannot accept that decision. The legal system is not always "fair" in some people's eyes, and there is no pleasing some folks. J. Swan, you said it best!

A question that has been bubbling around in my mind is this: How many people who've posted on here have had a horse catastrophically break down on them while galloping around Rolex? Anyone? How many of you have gallop around Rolex? Not me. I haven't walked in AT's field boots, nor do I ever hope to. I'm guessing that no one else has faced a similar situation. No one can know what was in her mind, what she felt or didn't feel. From what I know of her, she is a very private, reserved person. This public flogging must be awful for her (for anyone!!) to endure, and it will go on for years. I'm sure it will come up for years, as some will never let it go.

I hope that I never become as rigid and judgmental as some of the posters on this board have been. I don't feel it is my place to judge others. There is a higher power for that. Let the court decision rest, and move on to other issues. Beating the dead horse (sorry, bad pun) won't make it better.

Sannois
Jul. 27, 2007, 06:45 AM
I've lurked and read many of these threads on Amy. She's a local gal, made good, who had a terrible event occur to her horse, while under extreme pressure. I feel deeply sorry for her and LS. I am glad that the wheels of the established legal system have ground out a decision. I am sorry that some of her detractors cannot accept that decision. The legal system is not always "fair" in some people's eyes, and there is no pleasing some folks. J. Swan, you said it best!

A question that has been bubbling around in my mind is this: How many people who've posted on here have had a horse catastrophically break down on them while galloping around Rolex? Anyone? How many of you have gallop around Rolex? Not me. I haven't walked in AT's field boots, nor do I ever hope to. I'm guessing that no one else has faced a similar situation. No one can know what was in her mind, what she felt or didn't feel. From what I know of her, she is a very private, reserved person. This public flogging must be awful for her (for anyone!!) to endure, and it will go on for years. I'm sure it will come up for years, as some will never let it go.

I hope that I never become as rigid and judgmental as some of the posters on this board have been. I don't feel it is my place to judge others. There is a higher power for that. Let the court decision rest, and move on to other issues. Beating the dead horse (sorry, bad pun) won't make it better.
Galloping around Rolex to be a good horseman and a good judge of your horse underneath you. I wish people would stop saying because we haven't competed in Upper level eventing that we dont understand. Thats just BS. No one will ever convince me, and I dare say alot of other people on these threads that she did not KNOW he was lame. I dont care what. If you have been riding as much as an upper level Event rider, You know what your horse feels like and should not feel like. On cross country you should be honed in on him as without that connection you dont stand a chance. I think her excuses and explanations are nothing more than trying to lessen the impression on everyone else. I would expect to be put under a microscope if I was ever so negligent!
:no:

pwynnnorman
Jul. 27, 2007, 07:11 AM
Since I'm one of those folks who want this thread to die, I'm going to resist posting on it any more (as hard to do as that is!) and leave it with just one last observation:

Most of the folks who are hyper-critical, selectively perceptive (both in reading people's posts and in recalling facts) and black-and-white about this issue are anonymous. And that's a good thing for them since such behavior commands little respect in the real world.

How many of you, I wonder, would be willing to walk into a room full of horse people and continue this debate in the manner in which you have presented yourselves here? By my count: TWO.

magnolia73
Jul. 27, 2007, 08:54 AM
How many people who've posted on here have had a horse catastrophically break down on them while galloping around Rolex?

I have not, but I've hopped on a horse, felt it be a bit off, hopped right back off and let someone know (vet, owner, trainer) that said horse was off. Each time, I chose to stop riding because I was not sure what was wrong. Her job, as rider, as the person responsible for the horse at that moment was to feel if anything went wrong and assess the need to stop. Granted, her judgement may have been clouded by past experiences of horses pulling a shoe or tearing a boot and feeling off, but it was her job to err on the side of caution and she messed up.

I don't feel that she made the decision in a conscientious manner, hell bent on winning. I think she was tired, probably mentally and physically and that no doubt affected her thought process in a negative way.

Like I said- the sport is the real loser. I know this incident (and a few others) will probably keep me from ever watching XC at a big event. And I think Amy Tryon will pay a higher price than a 2 month suspension. I think she will not get as many horses to train, people may choose not to ride with her. I suppose it is a matter of trust. Pre-accident, she was a top rider, known for getting a challenging horse to perform. For many people, that is now clouded by the fact that she had a huge lapse in judgement that may have cost a horse his life.

For the record, I would gladly stand in a group of top horse people and say every word I have said. Not that they would care about my opinion- after all, I'm scared of Beginner Novice :lol:. But, that does not mean that I don't understand riding, the need to keep the horses well being first, competitive drive or what it feels like to be on a lame horse. My name, for the record, is Maggie Collister.

deltawave
Jul. 27, 2007, 09:13 AM
No one will ever convince me...[snip[....I dont care what.

How very relaxing and non-stressful it must be to never have to change one's mind, no matter what.

JSwan
Jul. 27, 2007, 10:28 AM
I often wonder what folks would be saying if AT had made an extreme effort to stop the horse, crashed into a jump or the horse fell to the ground, was gravely injured, and LS had to be euthanized anyway.

Somehow I think folks would be saying she should have kicked on - that as a high level rider she should have been focused enough to know that keeping the momentum could have prevented her injury.

In short - people would have complained regardless of what the woman did.

Why on earth would anyone donate money to HSUS instead of USEA as some sort of protest? Eventing has made enormous efforts to focus on safety for both horse and rider - NO other equestrian sport is as proactive. This sport exceeds all others in that respect. The leaders in this sport are among the world best equestrians and veterinarians - there is nothing that any animal rights group can add that would be beneficial.

Y'all are gonna get your knickers in such a twist that you're going to donate and complain your way out of the sport entirely. Each year more venues are lost. The Olympics may be next. It's a dangerous sport for both horse and rider. It always has been and it always will be. All horse sports are - heck - more horses are lost in pasture accidents and colic! And often those could have been prevented had the owner paid attention to safety, or called the vet in time. In short - made better decisions.

Is every horse owner that loses a horse an animal abuser? A horrible owner? Should be banned from competing or owning another horse?

This incident, in the end, is a human being who thought she made a good decision and it turned out not to be. I can, off the top of my head, list 5 horse owners that I know of personally who waited too long to call the vet on an injury or illness and the horse died. There was no malice or neglect, and in hindsight, even the owner knew he/she was wrong.

I never saw anyone in handcuffs. Being responsible for the death or suffering of a horse is a terrible thing to live with. No matter what the outcome of this case was - AT has to live with that fact. Just like Karen O'Conner with Mr. Maxwell. Or any other owner who has lost a beloved horse.

I understand everyone's anger and sadness - for some reasons humans have this obsession with fixing blame and demanding blood from public figures. But this lady wasn't involved in a dog fighting ring, she didn't fix an election, she didn't starve her horses, she didn't kill them for insurance money..... in short..... put this incident in proper perspective!

Sannois
Jul. 27, 2007, 10:33 AM
Since I'm one of those folks who want this thread to die, I'm going to resist posting on it any more (as hard to do as that is!) and leave it with just one last observation:

Most of the folks who are hyper-critical, selectively perceptive (both in reading people's posts and in recalling facts) and black-and-white about this issue are anonymous. And that's a good thing for them since such behavior commands little respect in the real world.

How many of you, I wonder, would be willing to walk into a room full of horse people and continue this debate in the manner in which you have presented yourselves here? By my count: TWO.

I have not said anything thaqt I would not say in public. As I bet most of the others who are upset with this situation. :eek:

Sannois
Jul. 27, 2007, 10:35 AM
I often wonder what folks would be saying if AT had made an extreme effort to stop the horse, crashed into a jump or the horse fell to the ground, was gravely injured, and LS had to be euthanized anyway.

Somehow I think folks would be saying she should have kicked on - that as a high level rider she should have been focused enough to know that keeping the momentum could have prevented her injury.

In short - people would have complained regardless of what the woman did.

Why on earth would anyone donate money to HSUS instead of USEA as some sort of protest? Eventing has made enormous efforts to focus on safety for both horse and rider - NO other equestrian sport is as proactive. This sport exceeds all others in that respect. The leaders in this sport are among the world best equestrians and veterinarians - there is nothing that any animal rights group can add that would be beneficial.

Y'all are gonna get your knickers in such a twist that you're going to donate and complain your way out of the sport entirely. Each year more venues are lost. The Olympics may be next. It's a dangerous sport for both horse and rider. It always has been and it always will be. All horse sports are - heck - more horses are lost in pasture accidents and colic! And often those could have been prevented had the owner paid attention to safety, or called the vet in time. In short - made better decisions.

Is every horse owner that loses a horse an animal abuser? A horrible owner? Should be banned from competing or owning another horse?

This incident, in the end, is a human being who thought she made a good decision and it turned out not to be. I can, off the top of my head, list 5 horse owners that I know of personally who waited too long to call the vet on an injury or illness and the horse died. There was no malice or neglect, and in hindsight, even the owner knew he/she was wrong.

I never saw anyone in handcuffs. Being responsible for the death or suffering of a horse is a terrible thing to live with. No matter what the outcome of this case was - AT has to live with that fact. Just like Karen O'Conner with Mr. Maxwell. Or any other owner who has lost a beloved horse.

I understand everyone's anger and sadness - for some reasons humans have this obsession with fixing blame and demanding blood from public figures. But this lady wasn't involved in a dog fighting ring, she didn't fix an election, she didn't starve her horses, she didn't kill them for insurance money..... in short..... put this incident in proper perspective!
You are one of my favorite posters However I think wwe will have to agree to disagree on this one.

;)

LLDM
Jul. 27, 2007, 10:35 AM
Okay, so for all of you guys that want this thread to slide off the page and discussion to cease: What IS the take away message we are all supposed to get from this?

These things happen? This is the cost of eventing? There's nothing left to do or discuss or make better? Personal responsibility is passé?

Sorry, but I am starting to believe that eventing needs a serious attitude adjustment. The "acceptable loss rate" is getting out of control. It won't be fixed with another round of rules if the existing punishments are not reasonable punitive.

SCFarm

Auventera Two
Jul. 27, 2007, 10:35 AM
I know that's her STORY. But I think very few people buy it.

Can you imagine the rush of being a highly competitive person in first place at Rolex and, after having a great x-c round, having the finish line in sight. The competitive side of her overrode any rational thought about what was going on, or what was the right thing to do. IMO that is the only explanation that makes sense.

Well put. Nobody knows exactly what her motivation was, but it would seem to me that the adrenaline rush overcame any ounce of logic she should have been able to muster up. I think it's tragic. She'll apply a little lotion to her sore wrist and be back out there competing in a couple of months. Pity. In any case, I hope she learned her lesson and learned it well.

When a horse dies in Endurance racing, it is a grave event that is mourned and strictly investigated, sometimes for many months. Fatality Reports are taken so seriously within that sport. And with all the vet checks during a race, generally horses are pulled immediately if they are showing signs of any type of distress at all. The health of the horse is ALWAYS the number one topic of importance. I would think it would be that way in all disciplines, but it just doesn't seem to be, unfortunately.

Sannois
Jul. 27, 2007, 10:42 AM
How very relaxing and non-stressful it must be to never have to change one's mind, no matter what.

In certain situations you have to go with what you believe to be right.
Theres no sense in hashing all the same things over and over again, its been said on all these threads. I only hope that it will make all riders no matter what level be more aware of the horse under them.
So we will have to agree to disagree on this one. As I have said before I like you, and I think your a great amateur role model. Differences of opinions make the work go round. I understand if you do not feel the same. :yes:

Sannois
Jul. 27, 2007, 10:47 AM
I have not, but I've hopped on a horse, felt it be a bit off, hopped right back off and let someone know (vet, owner, trainer) that said horse was off. Each time, I chose to stop riding because I was not sure what was wrong. Her job, as rider, as the person responsible for the horse at that moment was to feel if anything went wrong and assess the need to stop. Granted, her judgement may have been clouded by past experiences of horses pulling a shoe or tearing a boot and feeling off, but it was her job to err on the side of caution and she messed up.

I don't feel that she made the decision in a conscientious manner, hell bent on winning. I think she was tired, probably mentally and physically and that no doubt affected her thought process in a negative way.

Like I said- the sport is the real loser. I know this incident (and a few others) will probably keep me from ever watching XC at a big event. And I think Amy Tryon will pay a higher price than a 2 month suspension. I think she will not get as many horses to train, people may choose not to ride with her. I suppose it is a matter of trust. Pre-accident, she was a top rider, known for getting a challenging horse to perform. For many people, that is now clouded by the fact that she had a huge lapse in judgement that may have cost a horse his life.

For the record, I would gladly stand in a group of top horse people and say every word I have said. Not that they would care about my opinion- after all, I'm scared of Beginner Novice :lol:. But, that does not mean that I don't understand riding, the need to keep the horses well being first, competitive drive or what it feels like to be on a lame horse. My name, for the record, is Maggie Collister.
I too have ridden all my life, Hunters, Dressage and only low level Eventing. I have taught many beginner and intermediate students over the last 30 years, and One of the primary things that I teach is The horse comes first, and to learn to listen to the horse. I am just shy of 50, And oh I am not afraid, My name is Kim Horan!

JSwan
Jul. 27, 2007, 10:48 AM
I don't think any loss is acceptable. But it is impossible to make anything 100% safe. You want miracles? Go to Lourdes.

You want reality? A young rider just died and none of y'all are even talking about what happened.

Sannois - I really do understand everyone's point of view - yours too. There is a part of me (I saw it live) that was screaming no no no pull up pull up how can't you know know - but another part of me that has seen a different world - the one that soldiers call, "the fog of war". It's how friendly fire happens. It's how battles are won or lost - how police end up shooting a little kid with a toy gun, or hesitating and being shot and killed by a felon. Why a human can make, in hindsight, such a glaring and obvious error. That part of me will not condemn AT for being a human being in a crisis.

Until any one of us has experienced that "fog", we can't know how we would react. Will we cower in a foxhole? Will we fight? Will we pull up or kick on? Will we pull the trigger or hesitate and risk our own death?

magnolia73
Jul. 27, 2007, 10:51 AM
My beef is that we had one of the best riders in the world, not thinking straight at the end of her course. If you can't be fully aware the whole time, fit enough to be able to think- both mentally and physically, then you need to not be jumping around such a dangerous course. When a horse takes a funny step- I bet 99 out of 100 horse people would pull up, slow down and think. I bet if AT was schooling, relaxed, aware- she would have immediately pulled up.

We talk a lot about the mental and physical capability of the horses to get round the course. Maybe it is time to make sure the RIDERS can handle the courses from start to finish. And if not- if the riders can not competently guide their mounts through the challenge of the course, then they need to drop back or make the courses easier.

KatieE
Jul. 27, 2007, 10:54 AM
So... if we are going to ATTACK ( I put this in caps because that is the approach most of you are taking on Amy) everyone who is cruel to a horse then why don't some of you start going to events and watching every other rider-induced injury/fatality that happen almost EVERY weekend at an upper level horse trial. The rider that gallops far too fast into a vertical and flips her horse, resulting in euthanasia, another rider that doesn't put proper studs in for the ground and he slips and falls, another who knows her horse doesn't feel quite right but finishes anyhow, winning their ribbon but finding out later that the horse injured a tendon, a rider who decides to unwisely upgrade to a higher level only to bury and "pop" her horse over every fence, finally crashing in the middle of an oxer (wow, seems like we see this one more and more these days!) .... the list goes on and on, and since you are all so quick to judge such a public case, it seems only fair that every rider gets the same treatment. Only this would be impossible because this is ALL of us, whether some of us want to admit it or not, there are decisions we make, whether consciously or unconsciously that in hindsight are bad ones, and unfortunately sometimes those decisions affect our horse in a very bad way.
Unfortunately for Amy her's took place at a very highly publicized event and then proceeded to get positively ripped apart by some of you who think they know a whole lot about upper level eventing but I highly doubt many of you do. I know Amy from riding at the upper levels and she (like most all of the truly elite riders she belongs to in the USA) takes immaculate care of her horses. Did she make a bad decision, yes. If she could turn back time and do something differently would she, i think yes. Would the fate of the horse be different if she had stopped before the fence, probably not, the tendons were severed, period. If it took place at a regular horse trial without the media/public involved would it have recieved the same attention, probably not.
I don't really care what anyone has to say about Amy anymore, those of us who are privledged to have seen her ride and care for her horses already know what she is like, and know that there are plenty of other people out there who do a sub-par version of her care but never recieved the battering that she has in recent times on this BB. She is human, humans sometimes make mistakes, I just hope that none of my mistakes in life are never judged by the crowd on this BB.

magnolia73
Jul. 27, 2007, 10:57 AM
Jswan-
I see your point- but she chose to go ride the course and it was her responsibility to make sure she could get from start to finish without ending up in a fog. At the end of a 20 mile run, I am prone to step across an intersection without paying much attention- that is my fog- I've been there. It's scary. I would never say, run with a baby stroller at that point. If you have a responsibility to another (unless you are in a war type situation), you owe it to that being to be aware the whole time. We all know our limits and she should have known hers as well.

I mean, you can't choose where you are, how you feel at war or in a hostage situation. But you can control being prepared to run a horse in a **** event.

KatieE
Jul. 27, 2007, 10:57 AM
My beef is that we had one of the best riders in the world, not thinking straight at the end of her course. If you can't be fully aware the whole time, fit enough to be able to think- both mentally and physically, then you need to not be jumping around such a dangerous course. When a horse takes a funny step- I bet 99 out of 100 horse people would pull up, slow down and think. I bet if AT was schooling, relaxed, aware- she would have immediately pulled up.

We talk a lot about the mental and physical capability of the horses to get round the course. Maybe it is time to make sure the RIDERS can handle the courses from start to finish. And if not- if the riders can not competently guide their mounts through the challenge of the course, then they need to drop back or make the courses easier.

So you believe that Amy is not mentally/physically fit to ride around Rolex??? Should she go through some sort of additional training????? I"m not sure what your point is here....

indigoecho
Jul. 27, 2007, 11:06 AM
My beef is that we had one of the best riders in the world, not thinking straight at the end of her course. If you can't be fully aware the whole time, fit enough to be able to think- both mentally and physically, then you need to not be jumping around such a dangerous course. When a horse takes a funny step- I bet 99 out of 100 horse people would pull up, slow down and think. I bet if AT was schooling, relaxed, aware- she would have immediately pulled up.

We talk a lot about the mental and physical capability of the horses to get round the course. Maybe it is time to make sure the RIDERS can handle the courses from start to finish. And if not- if the riders can not competently guide their mounts through the challenge of the course, then they need to drop back or make the courses easier.

Very well said. I had these very thoughts when reading the entire FEI report. The FEI presented evidence in the form of witness testimony that LS was exhausted by the end of the round, and it contributed to his injury. This was refuted all the way around by AT's camp, but when it came time to defend herself, she had no problem using the excuse that she was exhausted and that caused her lapse in judgement. I have a problem with someone at that level being that out of tune with their horse and that unfit for a cross-country ride.

LisaB
Jul. 27, 2007, 11:09 AM
LLDM,
what I take away from this is:
1. It has now been brought to light what I've known for years. The COMPETITORS that we have on our team (a few, not all) are NOT horse people. They win us medals. Take it from personal experience. The win prevails over the welfare of the horse. So, I find a better horse person to train me now.
2. The FEI wants eventing gone. They slapped her wrist. They will go continue this charade giving PETA and the like a reason to ban us.
3. AT is gone from the public eye. Her sponsorship will go away and she will probably lay low for a long time. Still not admitting guilt however.

MSP
Jul. 27, 2007, 11:10 AM
First let me say I know very little about Eventing (so forgive me if the answer is obvious to every one) but I have a question regarding this case after reading about it at thehorse.com http://www.thehorse.com/viewarticle.aspx?ID=10052


The decision stated that "[t]he Tribunal believes that in the state the competitor was in--tired, focused on completing the course, and without the benefit of video and ability to observe matters or analyze them logically--she did not realize that the injury had occurred, and, thus, never intended to continue on course with a lame or injured horse. The Tribunal believes that the competitor clearly realized that the horse took quite a number of uneven strides, but could not determine their cause or likely severity. The Tribunal believes that the competitor should have nevertheless stopped earlier to understand the severity of the lameness."

My gut after reading this is why, if the injury was so apparent to those watching, didn’t an official or vet stop her from finishing the course?

I didn’t see this nor any video of it but it sounds like everyone was just sitting back watching it and did nothing to prevent it. Is the soundness of a horse left 100% up to the rider while on course?

Where is the video of this?

flshgordon
Jul. 27, 2007, 11:18 AM
A question that has been bubbling around in my mind is this: How many people who've posted on here have had a horse catastrophically break down on them while galloping around Rolex? Anyone? How many of you have gallop around Rolex? Not me. I haven't walked in AT's field boots, nor do I ever hope to. I'm guessing that no one else has faced a similar situation. No one can know what was in her mind, what she felt or didn't feel. From what I know of her, she is a very private, reserved person. This public flogging must be awful for her (for anyone!!) to endure, and it will go on for years. I'm sure it will come up for years, as some will never let it go.

I have honestly tried to keep mostly quiet on this topic but reading this just pisses me off :mad:

I am so freakin sick of people saying "have you ridden at Rolex? Have you made the upper 1% echelon of the sport?....if not, you have no idea what you're talking about".....Bullsh*t!!!!!!!

Had my dog been riding LS that day, she would have known to pull him up because he was THAT lame :rolleyes: The FEI punishment is a joke and the fact that Amy can use the "I didn't know what was going on" card and be defended is a joke.

The rest of the equestrian WORLD is ashamed of what Amy did, why aren't we?

magnolia73
Jul. 27, 2007, 11:20 AM
So you believe that Amy is not mentally/physically fit to ride around Rolex???

Possibly. I don't want to believe that her mistake was to understand the horse was in distress and push on to finish fully aware. I'm sure she is fit, but a whole lot of factors can affect your performance- heat, humidity, mental stress. Can you plan for it? No, but you should have a whole lot in reserve to cover those factors if you are responsible for doing the thinking.

My thought is that she was tired, physically, which leads to being tired, mentally, which means you make mistakes or your judgement is slowed. I do believe that at that level, you need to be with it 100% of the ride. You need to hop off your horse with enough fitness to go out two more times. I'm embarassed to say this, but I have jumped (stadium) courses where at the end, I was so tired that I didn't ride to the last few jumps or was simply not aware of what I was doing- just switched into auto pilot. It is the ONLY time I can imagine that I could have not noticed a horse being off or simply continued despite that feeling because I was not thinking clearly. For me, it was a lack of physical fitness, but I could also see doing the same just due to mental fatigue.

snoopy
Jul. 27, 2007, 11:24 AM
I often wonder what folks would be saying if AT had made an extreme effort to stop the horse, crashed into a jump or the horse fell to the ground, was gravely injured, and LS had to be euthanized anyway.


No extreme effort would have been required to stop this horse who was:

A; tired

B: clearly wanted to stop.

She was far enough away from the fence....infact the fence was not in her horse's eyesight, it had to be turned for approach.

Once she crossed the finish line and took the pressure off the horse to move forward, he basically stopped very quickly on his own accord, and would have probably done so BEFORE the final fence.

Perfect Pony
Jul. 27, 2007, 11:25 AM
LLDM,
what I take away from this is:
1. It has now been brought to light what I've known for years. The COMPETITORS that we have on our team (a few, not all) are NOT horse people. They win us medals. Take it from personal experience. The win prevails over the welfare of the horse. So, I find a better horse person to train me now.

This is what I take away as well, although I have to say that's where I was at before the AT thing occurred. And I won't completely confine this to eventing either.

I have been horrified by things that have gone on and happened under the coaching of very BNT and upper level riders. I have witnessed the fact that it takes something I am not prepared to accept for many riders to get to the top levels in horse sport. I have made a conscious decision to ride with trainers who I truly feel put the horses first and their ego and ribbons last. And while greatly talented, they usually don't find themselves at the "top" because of a genuine love and compassion for their horses.


Upper level eventing simply pushes most horses way beyond their physical and mental limits, and it's sometimes a real struggle for me to watch most of the horse and rider teams out there.

HotIITrot
Jul. 27, 2007, 11:26 AM
... why, if the injury was so apparent to those watching, didn’t an official or vet stop her from finishing the course?

I didn’t see this nor any video of it but it sounds like everyone was just sitting back watching it and did nothing to prevent it. Is the soundness of a horse left 100% up to the rider while on course?

The same reason Amy didn't pull him up :confused: ...

It happened too quickly :confused: ...

Didn't this whole thing happen in a 30 sec time frame or so?

LisaB
Jul. 27, 2007, 11:29 AM
hottotrot
NNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
It wasn't an instantaneous thing. The horse was clearly on three legs for about 5 jumps back. She was smacking him AFTER the jumps. Then on the turn from horse, he stumbles and is head bobbing, breaking to the trot, she guns him onto the last fence and the finish.
Again, this was NOT instantaneous!!!!!!!!!!!

Calvincrowe
Jul. 27, 2007, 11:40 AM
Flshgordon- let me put it this way: Have you had a horse, while galloping, catastrophically breakdown? I guess that many of us have not. Most of us are not jockeys or eventers, where most of these injuries seem to occur. I'm betting it feels very different than trotting along, when suddenly, Dobbin feels a bit off. When humans have terrible injuries on a playing field, in the middle of a big game, with adrenaline pumping--especially ligament or tendon issues, they often don't realize how bad it is.

I am just posing thoughtful questions. I really have no opinion one way or the other on Amy's culpability. I'm just tired of the character assassination going on, on these threads and many others. You can have your opinion about her character, I'll have mine. But, seriously, ask yourself the hard questions and then MOVE ON.

A little self-examination is a good thing. And, until you are in a similar situation, you have no idea how you would react, or what you'd feel.

Eventing seems to be turning on itself and is going down in flames with the rest of the sports world. I realize that catastrophic injuries occur in all levels/disciplines, but this incident and others, as well as eveyone's continued in-fighting is not helping eventing become a better sport. Letting AT go on with her life, whether she events at the top levels again or not is the best thing for it. Take away what you will from this, but let it die down in the court of public opinion. Continuing to keep the controversy in the public eye, not the lessons learned, is not constructive or healthy for eventing.

BarbB
Jul. 27, 2007, 11:40 AM
hottotrot
NNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
It wasn't an instantaneous thing. The horse was clearly on three legs for about 5 jumps back. She was smacking him AFTER the jumps. Then on the turn from horse, he stumbles and is head bobbing, breaking to the trot, she guns him onto the last fence and the finish.
Again, this was NOT instantaneous!!!!!!!!!!!


now we are delving into urban mythology.....
the horse jumped 5 jumps while running on 3 legs??

is this what you are repeating to people ? are you nuts?

HotIITrot
Jul. 27, 2007, 11:43 AM
Where is the video of this?

http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=664abo2


hottotrot
NNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
It wasn't an instantaneous thing. The horse was clearly on three legs for about 5 jumps back. She was smacking him AFTER the jumps. Then on the turn from horse, he stumbles and is head bobbing, breaking to the trot, she guns him onto the last fence and the finish.
Again, this was NOT instantaneous!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, the link above shows the horse galloping right before the "break down" and over the last fence (1 jump). To me, the horse looks perfectly sound before the break down. Am I wrong here? The horse was three legged lame before the "break down" 5 fences back! :eek:

HotIITrot
Jul. 27, 2007, 11:50 AM
now we are delving into urban mythology.....
the horse jumped 5 jumps while running on 3 legs??

is this what you are repeating to people ? are you nuts?

Sounds like BarbB answered my question right before I posted.

Dune
Jul. 27, 2007, 11:54 AM
I think everyone should keep in mind that this decision is more punishment than your local criminal court is going to give the most heinous animal abuser.

The horse was injured and was euthanized. The rider didn't pull up when she should have. It was a mistake, and everyone recognizes that it was a mistake.

Every horse owner makes such mistakes. And often the horse dies because of it. Just a wait and see approach to calling the vet on a colic can result in the horse dying - because we didn't recognize the danger in time. We all know of cases like that. A puncture wound gone bad. Pasture accident that could have been avoided in hindsight.

Whether one is in the spotlight or not - that doesn't matter to me. I make a distinction between AT's mistake and someone who commits acts intentionally and with malice. So does the FEI.

And our legal system does too - she would never have even been accused of animal abuse in our legal system.

The incident was recognized for what it was, and AT was admonished. This does affect her and her reputation.

If you want to see a miscarriage of justice, go to any courtroom and watch real criminals walk out with not even a slap on the wrist. Torturing puppies? Maybe 30 days; suspended. Lighting a dog on fire? 30 days; suspended; 500$ fine. Poisoning the neighborhood dogs? 60 days; suspended.

Starving a herd of horses, not treating broken bones, dead horses laying around? 6 months, 4 suspended; 1000$ fine.

I could go on....

Save your anger for real animal abuse and leave AT alone.


Well written and I agree, thanks...it saved me a lot of time. ;)

deltawave
Jul. 27, 2007, 11:56 AM
every other rider-induced injury/fatality that happen almost EVERY weekend at an upper level horse trial.

Umm, what planet are you competing on? "Almost EVERY weekend"? So you're saying, what, in a course of a year that 30 or 40 horses die at upper level horse trials? Dang, stop the presses, we have a crisis on our hands that seemingly nobody is aware of! :rolleyes:

MSP
Jul. 27, 2007, 12:04 PM
If that first miss step before the last jump was the first sign of something wrong then this is my take.

It almost looked like the horse stepped in a hole and it was obvious to viewers on the ground that there was a problem.

So back to my original question! There are officials on every jump yes? I think if both the officials and the rider are equally responsible for determining the soundness of a horse to proceed then the blame should be split 50/50. That horse should not have been allowed to take that last jump.

I can't answer whether the rider had time to process that but I would think that is why it is important to have people on the ground willing and able to stop a horse and rider in trouble.

If the horse was on course with an injury longer than what that video showed then I think several heads should roll!

Perfect Pony
Jul. 27, 2007, 12:04 PM
Umm, what planet are you competing on? "Almost EVERY weekend"? So you're saying, what, in a course of a year that 30 or 40 horses die at upper level horse trials? Dang, stop the presses, we have a crisis on our hands that seemingly nobody is aware of! :rolleyes:

At that rate wouldn't we lose ALL our upper level event horses within a couple years time?

Auventera Two
Jul. 27, 2007, 12:16 PM
Flshgordon- let me put it this way: Have you had a horse, while galloping, catastrophically breakdown? I guess that many of us have not. Most of us are not jockeys or eventers, where most of these injuries seem to occur. I'm betting it feels very different than trotting along, when suddenly, Dobbin feels a bit off. When humans have terrible injuries on a playing field, in the middle of a big game, with adrenaline pumping--especially ligament or tendon issues, they often don't realize how bad it is.

Your argument doesn't pertain to this situation. Your argument would pertain more to Barbaro and Prado, who had to physically pull him up with all his strength. AT's horse was 3 legged, and begging to stop. He broke gait and she had to go to her whip.

I believe that Barbaro, just like Ruffian, had the adrenaline pumping and they were so "in the zone" that their competitive drive compelled them forward, even on top of a shattered leg. Who knows why some horses get like that and some don't. But AT's horse was asking to stop.

Hony
Jul. 27, 2007, 12:34 PM
I think that AT looks mighty tired in the bit of gallop before the break down. I would bet that it is difficult to make judgements when you and your horse are tired, with one fence to go on a long course. This is where I do think that you have to have experienced this in order to judge it.

ponygirl
Jul. 27, 2007, 12:46 PM
She competed her horse Poggio in the Advanced Div. at the Pan Am selection trials in California in May, then flew the horse to the east coast to compete in the big Jersey Fresh Event (also Pan Am selection trial) which started just 4 days after the Calif. event. Seems like a horrible stress on the horse. Was she thinking she was going to be banned from the sport for life so had to do as much competing as possible? Was she really thinking that the selectors would put her on the Pan Am team? When you are under the microscope already seems like you might want to err on the conservative side of things...instead of putting a lot of stress on Poggio.

LLDM
Jul. 27, 2007, 12:48 PM
I don't think any loss is acceptable. But it is impossible to make anything 100% safe. You want miracles? Go to Lourdes.

You want reality? A young rider just died and none of y'all are even talking about what happened.

Sannois - I really do understand everyone's point of view - yours too. There is a part of me (I saw it live) that was screaming no no no pull up pull up how can't you know know - but another part of me that has seen a different world - the one that soldiers call, "the fog of war". It's how friendly fire happens. It's how battles are won or lost - how police end up shooting a little kid with a toy gun, or hesitating and being shot and killed by a felon. Why a human can make, in hindsight, such a glaring and obvious error. That part of me will not condemn AT for being a human being in a crisis.

Until any one of us has experienced that "fog", we can't know how we would react. Will we cower in a foxhole? Will we fight? Will we pull up or kick on? Will we pull the trigger or hesitate and risk our own death?

Excuse me, but I was the one who posted about the Swedish rider's death.

And don't give me that CRAP about the "fog of war"! This isn't war, it's a bleeding sporting event. :rolleyes: And you want to talk about perspective?

Life is not safe. Horses die. People die. So what, are supposed to quit trying? Are we supposed to throw our hands in the air and surrender?

Yes, mistakes are made. The whole IDEA is to learn something from them! To try and PREVENT the same things from happening again. At least in my world. How the heck does that happen if they are not picked apart and analyzed to the nth degree?

It is NOT personal for me about AT. But it is the case we have in front of us. No matter what she thought - what she did was sloppy riding and sloppy horsemanship. In eventing, sloppy kills. Maybe it IS the case, but I have a hard time believing that a suspensory ligament just catastrophically fails from one moment to the next. And while I could be wrong (I'll have to go research this), it means it was either failing before the "bad step" or not completely ruptured immediately after the bad step. Can anyone tell me why this is not a good thing to discuss and understand better?

The decision to pull up or kick on must be made in a instant. No, folks won't always get it right. But it is EVERYTHING that has happened up to that point in time that allows the decision to made without analytical thought - there is simply no time. The default MUST be in favor of the safety of the horse - which leads directly to the safety of the rider.

Don't you see? We HAVE TO TALK ABOUT IT! And I can not understand for the life of me why this discussion isn't happening at the highest levels. Not AT, not the ULRs, the USEA, nor the USEF - even the FEI didn't drive that home - with words or punishment.

Safety - in abstract it is a mindset. In practice it is every single careful piece of the puzzle.

IMO there are cracks in the foundation of eventing. What HAS been done to make it safer is not getting the required results. The short format isn't doing it, the USEF (which is supposed to unite the sport from the grass roots to the elite) isn't getting it done, the elite level riders with strings of 5, 6 or 7 upper level horses aren't getting it done, yet another round of safety committees isn't getting it done. Where's the fruitbat?

IMO those who are driving this bus have lost their sense of direction. They are driving around in circles, agreeing with each other that they are not lost.

IMO the merger between the USET and the AHSA has failed utterly - at least as far as eventing is concerned. And at this point I am happy to cede the upper levels to the USEF and go happily on my way. But I highly resent that these are the folks making up the rules. All they are is a highly bureaucratic monopoly that can't seem to get anything worth while done - unless all you count is medals. It's just politics gone wild and "taxation without representation".

Maybe we should consider breaking off from the USEF. At what level that would make sense is something I am pondering. It could happen at the USEA level, the Area levels or the CTA level. Maybe we should seriously consider reconstituting the USCTA.

I simply do not think that the path USEF eventing is on is sustainable or viable. It's main, over-riding concern is the Team and getting the favored riders plenty of "spare" upper level horses. Can anyone tell me how a rider can effectively train, compete and truly "bond" with 6 or 7 ** and *** horses? Is it even possible for them to be appropriately careful with that many as the primary rider? Maybe possible in show jumping, but dressage folks don't, nor endurance, nor driving. Why is it reasonable at ANY level of eventing?

I'm sorry, but our leaders can't see the forest for the trees. Eventing IS now on public display. Maybe things went by unnoticed before, but now that is becoming impossible. People WILL scrutinize, they will judge and they will talk on the internet. Our leaders need to face reality. If they gave it some real thought, they could make it a GOOD THING. I am not holding my breath.

They COULD do so. They COULD focus on the process of making up an event horse. They COULD spend their time and money on teaching training techniques, conditioning, stable management, veterinary skills, foot care, nutrition, sportsmanship, equipment selection, use and care, riding technique, feel and understanding the feedback loop with your horse. Heck, how about the whole concept of when to "kick on" and when to "pull up"? Isn't this the most valuable conversation we can have? Esp. when the consequences of getting it wrong are so dire? How about some lessons on how to identify and properly react to a breakdown? Or, how about some stragies to prevent breakdown injuries? They have had 3 months to comne up with something while waiting for this decision, but a week later there is still nothing.

As much as I think competition is a good thing - it isn't the only thing. And I am afraid that the USEF is only about competition and no longer about much else. Eventing would be less costly without them. We have the rule book, officials exist, procedures are there.

So, I'll ask that truly American ugly awful question of the USEF: What have you done for me lately?

Sorry for the rant.

SCFarm

JER
Jul. 27, 2007, 01:24 PM
My beef is that we had one of the best riders in the world, not thinking straight at the end of her course. If you can't be fully aware the whole time, fit enough to be able to think- both mentally and physically, then you need to not be jumping around such a dangerous course.

From the report, it seemed to me that the FEI offered the 'mental state' excuse for her decision not to pull up:

"[t]he Tribunal believes that in the state the competitor was in--tired, focused on completing the course, and without the benefit of video and ability to observe matters or analyze them logically--she did not realize that the injury had occurred, and, thus, never intended to continue on course with a lame or injured horse.

I didn't see where AT offered that as an excuse. Did she? She just said she didn't know/couldn't tell the severity of the injury. She did say something about not being aware of where the finish line was and just trying to pull up after the last fence, apparently coincidentally coming to a stop just on the 'completion' side of the finish flags (which muddles the FEI's picture) but otherwise, I got the impression that the FEI was the party who qualified what they thought was her mental state.

The FEI should not make this kind of excuse for riders. Imagine if this happened in racing? You think a jockey is let off the hook for being 'tired' or 'focused' at the end of a race? This is when most riding infractions happen.

The FEI should also note that CCI**** competitions allow some riders to ride multiple horses (usually two maximum, sometimes three). How can the FEI say that this is safe for the horse and rider if even one trip impairs the rider's reasoning skills?

JSwan
Jul. 27, 2007, 01:24 PM
Your apology is accepted; which is big of me considering that you didn't read my post for its content.

I missed your reference to the Swedish rider's death. I will look forward to the discussion on that one.

The fog of war is that split second decision - the one that is made under intense stress or adrenaline. The split second decision that people under fire (literally or figuratively) have to make every day. Whether it is under the stress of high level competition, or a fire or a crime - it is the split second decision that I am interested in as it is the subject at hand.

How this incident has become some sort of indictment of the entire sport is a study in mass hysteria. Break off, animal rights, ban her from the sport, it's a bunch of crap and overreaction.

Discuss yes. Crucify? No thanks. I haven't read much discussion.

I saw the incident as it happened. I can understand and empathize with the riders perception as well as witnesses. I think she should have pulled up. She thinks she should have pulled up. The world thinks she should have pulled up. Everyone agrees that some recognition of that fact is appropriate, including the rider herself.

Bitching about the fact she punishment isn't severe enough is absolutely silly - I've seen human criminals get less for violent crimes against human and animals. Repeat offenders, too.

Bah - save the sanctimonious preaching. Don't like eventing? Don't compete. Think it can be safer? Instead of complaining - get certified in course design or get on a committee.

Yeah - design a course and see how you feel when a horse or rider gets hurt and you did the best you could to design a safe course - but Monday morning quarterbacks try and lynch you for not noticing a pebble on the grass.

Auventera Two
Jul. 27, 2007, 01:46 PM
I think that AT looks mighty tired in the bit of gallop before the break down. I would bet that it is difficult to make judgements when you and your horse are tired, with one fence to go on a long course. This is where I do think that you have to have experienced this in order to judge it.

What I don't get is everyone talking about how physically exhausted she was. Yes, I'm sure that cross country is extremely taxing. I won't pretend that it's not. But I don't understand how endurance riders can trot, canter, and gallop 100 miles over mountainous terrain and not get so delusional that they have no clue what's going on with the mount beneath them. Endurance riders go through strenuous vet checks every 15 or so miles and have to pass all sorts of criteria. It requires the rider to monitor their heart rate, respiration, soundness, and energy level throughout the entire ride. They are often riding in the dark with a head lamp for many many hours straight with little sleep, little food and drink. That's why it's called "Endurance" because you have to endure the rigors of the sport.

So I have a hard time understanding how a 15 minute cross country course can exhaust you so badly that you can't even think straight. Can someone explain to me what I'm missing?

I have an endurance ride tomorrow in which I'll be doing 35 miles. (Actually called a Limited Distance ride.) 35 miles is a lot to me. 35 miles of riding and careful monitoring of my horse the entire ride. I'm not sure how many miles a CC course is over, can someone tell me? I understand that endurance riders don't jump big fences though. That is very taxing on the horse, I can certainly appreciate that. But it's still hard work, and requires physical fitness.

And the thing with endurance riding is that at the end of the race, the horse has to be judged "Fit to Continue" by the ride vets. In other words, he needs to look like he could go out there and do another 35, 50 or 100 miles. The horse cannot be spent. There has to be gas in the tank yet.

It almost seems to me that the CC associations could take some lessons from the endurance associations. Not saying that the endurance people are better, but they seem to have a decent handle on monitoring horse and rider fitness and health.

kytter
Jul. 27, 2007, 01:46 PM
http://equisearch.com/equiwire_news/nancy_jaffer/tryonspeaksout_072707

LisaB
Jul. 27, 2007, 02:21 PM
So I guess everyone's forgetting the last part of the course where she's hitting him and pressing him on, eh?
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

snoopy
Jul. 27, 2007, 02:31 PM
www.eventingetc.com adds more to the interview.

MSP
Jul. 27, 2007, 02:42 PM
So I guess everyone's forgetting the last part of the course where she's hitting him and pressing him on, eh?
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

The video didn't show him being hit and the beginning of the video he looks to be sound so I am not sure what you are referring too. Was there another part of the course where they had trouble?

LisaB
Jul. 27, 2007, 03:00 PM
Towards the end of the course, like the last 5 fences, she smacked him. A few of them, I can't remember how many, she smacked him exactly 3 times after the fence. If you look at the beginning of the course vs. the end of the course, it's like watching 2 different horses. Remember, this was a horse that was hard to control out on x-c in previous competitions and she has to smack him??
It's frustrating that everyone seems to forget that. The AT team seems to want us to forget that. The USEF wants us to have more fodder against us. I'm angered that they think we are so stupid as to think it was a catastrophic, one trip and boom, he was hurt. That's not so. It wasn't reported that the USEF to ask Kent Allen this question: "When do you think the injury occurred according to the video footage?" My bets, being uneducated in vet sciences, would have been well before that fateful stumble. And she kept pressing.
It seems like they didn't have a lot of objective professionals at the tribunal. Just defenders.

LLDM
Jul. 27, 2007, 03:28 PM
Wow, JSwan - didn't mean to stray from your point. :rolleyes:

A split second ain't 30 seconds. In the situation you describe, 30 seconds is an eternity. Event riders, drivers, pilots, cops, etc., etc. make these calls all the time. And when they are wrong, and something awful comes of it, they are held accountable. There are a number of people here who think 2 months suspension from competition (but still able to ride, teach and in every other way go about her business) is insufficient to have significant punitive value and sets a very low bar for future cases.

The concept of punitive value is to dissuade others from making the same mistakes under similar circumstances.

If you want to accuse me of crucifying AT, please feel free to go back and read all my posts on the subject. There are many. But there is a fine live between crucifying and analyzing - the difference being the analyzing isn't an attack on one's personal constitution, just an evaluation on the quality of there acts in context.

This incident has exposed some fundamental issues with eventing - not necessarily caused them - just caused people to look more closely at what they have avoided seeing. Again, my opinion. Nope, that's not AT's fault, nor did I ever claim it was. I do believe that AT has every right to defend herself using any means available. It is not her job (in this circumstance) to consider the greater good (see Hobbs' justification of government). It IS the function of the National Governing Body (USEF) to consider this. IMO they have failed to do so.

Yes, people get away with some horrific things. What does that have to do with this? It makes this okay how? Those people don't hold themselves up as paragons of animal welfare either or crusaders for the human condition. AT was never in danger of going to jail for crying out loud. It's a suspension from sports competitions.

Seems to me there's plenty sanctimonious drivel in your posts too. Nor did I notice a list of things you're doing to right the wrongs of the world.

SCFarm

MSP
Jul. 27, 2007, 03:46 PM
Towards the end of the course, like the last 5 fences, she smacked him. A few of them, I can't remember how many, she smacked him exactly 3 times after the fence. If you look at the beginning of the course vs. the end of the course, it's like watching 2 different horses. Remember, this was a horse that was hard to control out on x-c in previous competitions and she has to smack him??
It's frustrating that everyone seems to forget that. The AT team seems to want us to forget that. The USEF wants us to have more fodder against us. I'm angered that they think we are so stupid as to think it was a catastrophic, one trip and boom, he was hurt. That's not so. It wasn't reported that the USEF to ask Kent Allen this question: "When do you think the injury occurred according to the video footage?" My bets, being uneducated in vet sciences, would have been well before that fateful stumble. And she kept pressing.
It seems like they didn't have a lot of objective professionals at the tribunal. Just defenders.


I sure would like to see the whole ride.

But unless the horse showed signs of lameness smacking him is really not evidence that an injury occurred. Perhaps he was not feeling 100% but still sound. You can’t fault the rider for pressing on, after all the horse could just be having a bad day or bad attitude. Don’t they all get exams before the event? So he was off, do you sit out because he is off when you have no other evidence that anything is wrong?

You know that kind of reminds me of a horse I groomed on the track. He was in his stall and I was preparing him for a race. It was time to go and he refused to leave the stall. I called the trainer over and said he doesn’t want to go! Well, what do you do? Is the horse trying to tell you something or is he being lazy or having a bad day?

He broke down that race. Thanks to his jockey they didn’t take a spill; he held them together. It took me forever to get him back to the stall; I practically had to carry him; it turned out to be a chip in the knee. Hind sight is 20/20; what trainer would drop out of a race because the horse didn’t feel like racing that day?

Based on that video 14 seconds passed between the bad step and the take off before the jump; that is not a lot of time to make decisions to pull up for what could be a loose shoe when you are only one jump away from finishing.

Rebe
Jul. 27, 2007, 04:28 PM
It's really very simple.

I can believe that Amy did not keep going out of a determination to win at all costs. I can believe that she feels incredible remorse. I can believe that she didn't realize what had happened.

But she SHOULD HAVE realized what happened.

This is what being a true horseman, at any level, is about.

It doesn't matter if she was exhausted. It doesn't matter if she was focused on the fence ahead of her. It doesn't matter if she was in an adrenaline frenzy.

She should have known.

Whether you're an elite international rider, a jockey in a championship race, or a simple pleasure rider out on the trail, you should be able to recognize, instantly, when your horse is in trouble. Because horses will, and do, keep going when they shouldn't - often because we ask them to.

It was Amy's responsiblity to look after her horse.

She. Should. Have. Known.

JSwan
Jul. 27, 2007, 05:06 PM
And again, you're not reading my post. Most of it was a general comment on the content of all the posts.

EVERYBODY agrees she should have known. Should have stopped.

What do you want? Do you want her to wear a hairshirt? Be banned from the sport forever? A criminal prosecution? Exactly what is going to satisfy this desire for blood?

How does this mistake equate to the willfull, intentional and malicious acts that are committed against horses in the name of winning, a sale, revenge, ignorance, or stupidity. By amateur and professional alike?

Why does AT deserve more punishment than most convicted animal abusers? Because of who she is? She should have known better? We all should know better.

Who in eventing has said that they intend to learn nothing from this incident? Who has said they do not care about the horse, or care that LS died? Was not action taken at Rolex? Yes. Did it proceed further? Yes. Did action result? Yes. Will AT appeal? No.

That's more action than a case of two people who got mad at their dog and poured lighter fluid on it, then set it on fire and chased it - while neighbors screamed and tried to put out the fire.

Or people that get stoned and microwave their dog.

Forgiving AT isn't difficult for me because I've seen REAL crimes and know what AT did is not the same. I don't require a pound of flesh to be satisfied where this incident is concerned.

That doesn't mean what I think she did is ok or excusable. I just don't think she needs to shut herself away in a nunnery for it.

If you no longer care for AT, I think she'll get over it.



Wow, JSwan - didn't mean to stray from your point. :rolleyes:

A split second ain't 30 seconds. In the situation you describe, 30 seconds is an eternity. Event riders, drivers, pilots, cops, etc., etc. make these calls all the time. And when they are wrong, and something awful comes of it, they are held accountable. There are a number of people here who think 2 months suspension from competition (but still able to ride, teach and in every other way go about her business) is insufficient to have significant punitive value and sets a very low bar for future cases.

The concept of punitive value is to dissuade others from making the same mistakes under similar circumstances.

If you want to accuse me of crucifying AT, please feel free to go back and read all my posts on the subject. There are many. But there is a fine live between crucifying and analyzing - the difference being the analyzing isn't an attack on one's personal constitution, just an evaluation on the quality of there acts in context.

This incident has exposed some fundamental issues with eventing - not necessarily caused them - just caused people to look more closely at what they have avoided seeing. Again, my opinion. Nope, that's not AT's fault, nor did I ever claim it was. I do believe that AT has every right to defend herself using any means available. It is not her job (in this circumstance) to consider the greater good (see Hobbs' justification of government). It IS the function of the National Governing Body (USEF) to consider this. IMO they have failed to do so.

Yes, people get away with some horrific things. What does that have to do with this? It makes this okay how? Those people don't hold themselves up as paragons of animal welfare either or crusaders for the human condition. AT was never in danger of going to jail for crying out loud. It's a suspension from sports competitions.

Seems to me there's plenty sanctimonious drivel in your posts too. Nor did I notice a list of things you're doing to right the wrongs of the world.

SCFarm

Sandy M
Jul. 27, 2007, 05:13 PM
Flshgordon- let me put it this way: Have you had a horse, while galloping, catastrophically breakdown? I guess that many of us have not. Most of us are not jockeys or eventers, where most of these injuries seem to occur. I'm betting it feels very different than trotting along, when suddenly, Dobbin feels a bit off. When humans have terrible injuries on a playing field, in the middle of a big game, with adrenaline pumping--especially ligament or tendon issues, they often don't realize how bad it is.

I am just posing thoughtful questions. I really have no opinion one way or the other on Amy's culpability. I'm just tired of the character assassination going on, on these threads and many others. You can have your opinion about her character, I'll have mine. But, seriously, ask yourself the hard questions and then MOVE ON.

A little self-examination is a good thing. And, until you are in a similar situation, you have no idea how you would react, or what you'd feel.

Eventing seems to be turning on itself and is going down in flames with the rest of the sports world. I realize that catastrophic injuries occur in all levels/disciplines, but this incident and others, as well as eveyone's continued in-fighting is not helping eventing become a better sport. Letting AT go on with her life, whether she events at the top levels again or not is the best thing for it. Take away what you will from this, but let it die down in the court of public opinion. Continuing to keep the controversy in the public eye, not the lessons learned, is not constructive or healthy for eventing.


Catastrophically? Well, not catastrophically, and not on course. But I was at a good pace on a conditioning gallop/trail ride when I jumped a water crossing and my horse was suddenly galloping on three legs - much in the same way that LS was. He wanted to stop and I sure as heck let him! He could barely walk. Even if I'd been in a competition, I don't think I wouild have "mistakenly" pushed on. I could find no heat, swelling or injury in the leg itself, and since I was equi-distant from home and any place else that could help me, so I walked him - and it was painful for us both - home very slowly. He was SEVERELY lame. Called vet immediately, initially diagnosed as severe bruising, got worse: Fractured coffin bone. I imagine it would have been much worse had I forced him to push on at a gallop - assuming that were possible. (He recovered completely - four months in corrective/supportive shoe, 4 months rehab)

As for tiredness, one does wonder about rider condition: Back in the '60s Laurie Morgan rode THREE horses round Badminton and placed, I believe, on all 3, or perhaps 2 out of three. Was he in a fog all the way through the rides on his 2nd and 3rd horses? Seems not. So AT being fatigued, etc. seems... weak.

None of us know what she was thinking, and I certainly do believe it was a mistake and that she regrets it incredibly, but the sanctions seem feeble and inadequate.

BarbB
Jul. 27, 2007, 05:14 PM
Forgiving AT isn't difficult for me because I've seen REAL crimes and know what AT did is not the same. I don't require a pound of flesh to be satisfied where this incident is concerned.

That doesn't mean what I think she did is ok or excusable. I just don't think she needs to shut herself away in a nunnery for it.



EXACTLY!
well said, thank you
emphasis added by me, not J Swan

RHdobes563
Jul. 27, 2007, 05:41 PM
If I had been the rider, riding MY horse, riding it exactly the same, and with the same results and injury...

...I would not have gotten off with only two months suspension and $2500 fine.

Seven
Jul. 27, 2007, 06:13 PM
Why does AT deserve more punishment than most convicted animal abusers?

I really fail to understand how our imperfect criminal justice system becomes an excuse for an equally defective international governing body. Just because an abuser would get a similar (inadequate) punishment in one venue means it's okay to pass the same one down in another?

It's a bad argument that's flawed from the foundation.

Amy should have stopped. She has, however, in her own way, apologized. Personally, it wasn't a very satisfying apology, but at least it was offered. So for me the problems are now with 1) the governing body's failure to institute meaningful repercussions for a serious rules violation and 2) the state of the sport itself. I don't have the answers, but the fact that we can't even get appropriate resolution for this kind of transgression leaves me disheartened for the future.

LLDM
Jul. 27, 2007, 06:15 PM
Okay... One last try for communication. But I don't think your reading comprehension skills are much better than mine.


And again, you're not reading my post. Most of it was a general comment on the content of all the posts.

"All the posts" are all over the map. Some support, some don't in a wide degree of variation. Maybe if you were a little more specific?

EVERYBODY agrees she should have known. Should have stopped.

Okay...

What do you want? A year suspension would have been reasonable. Do you want her to wear a hairshirt? No. Be banned from the sport forever? No. A criminal prosecution? No. Exactly what is going to satisfy this desire for blood? Blood? I think that is a bit of an overstatement don't you think? What would be nice is if she were to say, "whatever you do, don't do what I did - when in doubt, default to the side of caution and minimizing damage to your horse." That would do it for me, and maybe a whole lot of people.

How does this mistake equate to the willfull, intentional and malicious acts that are committed against horses in the name of winning, a sale, revenge, ignorance, or stupidity. By amateur and professional alike?

Who says they equate? The most of the various acts you describe hold various and sundry penalties either under the law or under various USEF rules. Depending on the situation, context and location most hold some sort of penalties. Some, by circumstance, do not. It doesn't mean they are okay or morally defensible.

Why does AT deserve more punishment than most convicted animal abusers? Because of who she is? She should have known better? We all should know better.

Yes, it's true, most animal abusers are technically allowed to compete under USEF and FEI rules - mostly because they were not members performing the abuse under those rules at those venues. AT was bound as a member under their rules and at an official venue.

Who in eventing has said that they intend to learn nothing from this incident? They certainly haven't said otherwise - the powers that be, that is. Who has said they do not care about the horse, or care that LS died? No one I know of. Was not action taken at Rolex? Yes. Did it proceed further? Yes. Did action result? Yes. Will AT appeal? No. Why would she appeal such a light suspension? Oops, you already answered that - sorry.

That's more action than a case of two people who got mad at their dog and poured lighter fluid on it, then set it on fire and chased it - while neighbors screamed and tried to put out the fire. And that is also a failure of the systems we have - but a different set of laws.

Or people that get stoned and microwave their dog. To paraphrase you, I "don't think they would care" if they were not allowed to compete in eventing. Who said that was okay? Um, no one. (See, I can answer my own questions too.)

Forgiving AT isn't difficult for me because I've seen REAL crimes and know what AT did is not the same. So what, you forgive wife beating, because it isn't as bad as wife killing? After all, it's not as bad, so it's okay? Sorry, that's just faulty logic. I guess you would for give someone who neglected to feed their dog and it starved to death because they "didn't mean too". But killing it quickly but horribly is so much worse. I don't claim to know which is worse, quick suffering or slow suffering. No, it's not "the same" but it is still wrong. I don't require a pound of flesh to be satisfied where this incident is concerned. Pound of flesh? A bit dramatic aren't we? Some people here may want to shun her, but no one is going after her with a knife, for crying out loud.

That doesn't mean what I think she did is ok or excusable. At least we agree on something. I just don't think she needs to shut herself away in a nunnery for it. I don't either. But I would really not want her to represent the US in 2008, which because of the lightness of the suspension is now a possibility. Mostly because I really think it sends a very poor message - that the consequences to very poor decisions are minimal.

If you no longer care for AT, I think she'll get over it. I have no idea, nor do I care one way or the other.

SCFarm

fergie
Jul. 27, 2007, 06:16 PM
I think the punishment should have been one that affected HER ability to go on - one that interfered with her eventing schedule, one that would "disable" her desires and plans for a bit. Two months did not do that. As for the other animal abusers that J Swan mentioned - so they are not punished and therefore no one should be???? Let's just continue with that line of thinking that does not include compassion for animals! That is some twisted thinking.... I think you can always find someone who did something worse and got punished less - that doesn't make it right or a model to follow.
And her lies are just so insulting - didn't know where the finish line was???? PLEASE! Does anyone out there believe that????????

Gnep
Jul. 27, 2007, 06:21 PM
MSP

The first time AT used the whip on LS AFTER the jump was at the Normandi Bank, 3 solid hits on the bacon, tenderizing ?, than she used the whip 3 more times after the jump.
Normandie Bank was # 25 last jump # 34. Four times out of nine possibilities, not a bad score.
By the way if you look at the video clip, right hand befor the famous jump and after the famous jump, whip hand.

Sannois
Jul. 27, 2007, 06:53 PM
I think the punishment should have been one that affected HER ability to go on - one that interfered with her eventing schedule, one that would "disable" her desires and plans for a bit. Two months did not do that. As for the other animal abusers that J Swan mentioned - so they are not punished and therefore no one should be???? Let's just continue with that line of thinking that does not include compassion for animals! That is some twisted thinking.... I think you can always find someone who did something worse and got punished less - that doesn't make it right or a model to follow.
And her lies are just so insulting - didn't know where the finish line was???? PLEASE! Does anyone out there believe that????????

I must say the line about not knowing where the finish line was the lamest one I have heard. Who the HELL does not know where the finish line is even at the lowest level. And Umm Rolex?? That was a sad comment and excuse on her part. To me she should just keep quiet and try to pick up the pieces. I cant imagine it will be a very friendly place at many of the Venues she will be at from now on.
She could turn this whole thing around and make something positive come out of it. Instead of making excuses like I feel her statements are, She could try to teach the eventing hoards about what not to do. Like someone said, If she had just said, dont make the same mistake I did, Err on the side of caution. But I dont think that will happen.
And for those who are saying we want her crucified, Umm Far from it. But To say its over and done and a decision and punishment was handed down, just forget it, Well thats just plain foolish. IT needs to be looked at, and looked at hard. For the sport as a whole I fear is on a slippery slope.

fergie
Jul. 27, 2007, 07:07 PM
I must say the line about not knowing where the finish line was the lamest one I have heard.
"Lamest" excuse - I like that. Clever.

JER
Jul. 27, 2007, 08:56 PM
J Swan writes:

Why does AT deserve more punishment than most convicted animal abusers? Because of who she is? She should have known better?

To which Seven replies:

I really fail to understand how our imperfect criminal justice system becomes an excuse for an equally defective international governing body. Just because an abuser would get a similar (inadequate) punishment in one venue means it's okay to pass the same one down in another?


There is a fundamental difference in the underpinnings of animal law in the US legal system and the FEI rules. Animal law -- in both criminal and civil cases -- is based on the idea that animals are property. For example, if your horse or dog or bison runs into the road and gets hit by a car, the animal owner is responsible for the accident because they were not in control of their animal. If someone takes possession of your dog/horse/cat without your permission, the charge would be petty theft or grand theft based on the value of the animal. Animals do not have legal standing and therefore cannot sue on their own behalf. A pet owner can only sue a veterinarian for the market value of the animal and not for damages.

The FEI, however, is not a property owners' organization. It has a different mission. From the FEI's own website (http://www.horsesport.org):


Equestrian sport has been on the Olympic programme ever since 1912 with three disciplines: Jumping, Dressage and Eventing. It is one of the very few sports where men and women compete on equal terms. It is also the only sport which involves two athletes, horse and rider, and the relationship and mutual respect built up between them is the key to a successful partnership.

(...)

The FEI has relentlessly concerned itself with the welfare of the horse. According to the First Article of the Code of Conduct, ratified in 1991, updated in 2003 and applying to all those involved in equestrian sport: “At all stages during the preparation and training of competition horses, welfare must take precedence over all other demands”.

So, if we are to believe what the FEI says about the horse being an athlete and a partner and that the welfare of the horse is the top priority, then we should expect more from them than from a US court of law.

bauhaus
Jul. 27, 2007, 09:13 PM
I think the punishment should have been one that affected HER ability to go on - one that interfered with her eventing schedule, one that would "disable" her desires and plans for a bit. Two months did not do that. As for the other animal abusers that J Swan mentioned - so they are not punished and therefore no one should be???? Let's just continue with that line of thinking that does not include compassion for animals! That is some twisted thinking.... I think you can always find someone who did something worse and got punished less - that doesn't make it right or a model to follow.
And her lies are just so insulting - didn't know where the finish line was???? PLEASE! Does anyone out there believe that????????

Exactly. It seems like every time she opens her mouth on this, she lowers my opinion of her further. I simply don't believe she didn't know where the finish line was. And if it's true that she didn't know, then this just adds to my belief that she had no business competing at Rolex. I don't want blood. However I will be disgusted if she ends up representing our country at the Olympics because quite frankly, I thought our standards were higher than that. I don't want to see a rider at the Olympics who can't tell when her horse is lame and who forgets where the finish line is.

HotIITrot
Jul. 27, 2007, 09:21 PM
Ok, when she said she didn’t know where the finish line was, I didn’t take as “she forgot”, but rather as … She didn’t care/pay attention to the finish flag as she pulled up LS slowly and carefully. She ended up right past the flags, but that wasn’t something she paid attention to or was even thinking about at the time.

That’s what I got out of it.

JSwan
Jul. 27, 2007, 09:31 PM
The FEI, however, is not a property owners' organization. It has a different mission. From the FEI's own website (http://www.horsesport.org):



So, if we are to believe what the FEI says about the horse being an athlete and a partner and that the welfare of the horse is the top priority, then we should expect more from them than from a US court of law.

In which case, as others have pointed out, the decision in AT's case was within the norms for that body. Anything more severe, or unusual, may have resulted in grounds for an appeal. Does anyone really think that dragging this matter out further would do anything positive for the sport?

It's possible to let this matter rest and still address, separately, any real or perceived flaws in the sport, its leaders, or rules.

KellyS
Jul. 27, 2007, 09:36 PM
Ok, when she said she didn’t know where the finish line was, I didn’t take as “she forgot”, but rather as … She didn’t care/pay attention to the finish flag as she pulled up LS slowly and carefully. She ended up right past the flags, but that wasn’t something she paid attention to or was even thinking about at the time.

Coincidence? I think not...

Saying that she just happened to end up past the finish flags is about as "lame" as saying that LS was "locked on" to the last fence and that's why it was too dangerous to pull him up beforehand.

All discussion aside, it's these type of excuses/explanations that make me just shake my head. Frankly, I don't have patience for BS.

And I also feel that no one should be chastised for feeling strongly about this matter. I get tired of the "just move on" and "it's over and done with" mind set. This is a discussion forum and if the discussion here keeps one horse from suffering the same fate, then it has been productive.

And yes, my full name is below ;) and I would have no problem voicing my opinions in person.

Seven
Jul. 27, 2007, 09:55 PM
So, if we are to believe what the FEI says about the horse being an athlete and a partner and that the welfare of the horse is the top priority, then we should expect more from them than from a US court of law.

A good point, JER. Not the one I was trying to get at (i.e., just pointing out the fundamental logic flaw), but actually yours is more constructive.

Also to agree with KellyS and others, ATs statements are just insulting to our (collective) intelligence. Nothing like tossing gasoline on a fire. :rolleyes: Too bad her "team" doesn't include a PR rep for some damage control. She could really use that right now.

deltawave
Jul. 27, 2007, 09:57 PM
Who the HELL does not know where the finish line is even at the lowest level.

Me. :uhoh: I missed the finish flags once at Novice, eons ago. I actually asked an official where it was as I approached (there were three separate finish lines for three different levels) and she calmly pointed me to the right one. TOTAL unauthorized assistance, neither of us was really thinking. I was grateful and embarrassed and truly it was an innocent "brain fart" as I had walked the course twice.

There's that evil DW again. :lol:

HotIITrot
Jul. 27, 2007, 10:02 PM
Me. :uhoh: I missed the finish flags once at Novice, eons ago. I actually asked an official where it was as I approached (there were three separate finish lines for three different levels) and she calmly pointed me to the right one. TOTAL unauthorized assistance, neither of us was really thinking. I was grateful and embarrassed and truly it was an innocent "brain fart" as I had walked the course twice.

There's that evil DW again. :lol:

:lol: You make me laugh!

Paks
Jul. 27, 2007, 10:52 PM
Why on earth would anyone donate money to HSUS instead of USEA as some sort of protest? Eventing has made enormous efforts to focus on safety for both horse and rider - NO other equestrian sport is as proactive. This sport exceeds all others in that respect. The leaders in this sport are among the world best equestrians and veterinarians - there is nothing that any animal rights group can add that would be beneficial.



How about impartiality. Since who you know and who you are friends with seems to be more important than your actions. It might be time to consider that perhaps eventing is as incapable of policing itself in these types of matters as the Tennesse Walker Breeders are on sorring issues. Maybe it is time to have government regulations that have to be fairly and equally enforced no matter who you are or who you know. The HSUS is a lobby group. Lobby groups work to get laws passed. Laws that are passed become the basis for regulations. Those regulations would be enforced by government personell who could loose there job if they show favoritism.

Why should I send my money to a group of people don't think the rules should be applied equally? Why should I send my money to support a team made up of people who feel is is understandable that someone would jump an obviously lame horse over a 4**** fence? Why should I send my money to a group of people who feel only the highest level of rider can have a valid opinion worthy of being heard?

So sending my money to someone who might be able to take some decisions out of the hands of the current group begins to look like a good idea. Not that I have any love for the HSUS believe me I don't. It is however becoming a case of the lessor of two evils. With the HSUS at least there is a chance they will listen. The other group has already let me know they won't.

groom
Jul. 27, 2007, 11:57 PM
Why on earth would anyone donate money to HSUS instead of USEA as some sort of protest? Eventing has made enormous efforts to focus on safety for both horse and rider - NO other equestrian sport is as proactive. This sport exceeds all others in that respect. The leaders in this sport are among the world best equestrians and veterinarians - there is nothing that any animal rights group can add that would be beneficial.


It might be time to consider that perhaps eventing is as incapable of policing itself in these types of matters as the Tennesse Walker Breeders are on sorring issues.

....:rolleyes:


Maybe it is time to have government regulations that have to be fairly and equally enforced no matter who you are or who you know. The HSUS is a lobby group. Lobby groups work to get laws passed. Laws that are passed become the basis for regulations. Those regulations would be enforced by government personell who could loose there job if they show favoritism.

Excellent Idea! The HSUS could lobby to draft new laws regulating Eventing, which the police could enforce! :eek: Why hasn't anyone thought of this partnership before? I had a feeling that if we kept hammering away at this issue, someone would solve the problem!



Why should I send my money to a group of people don't think the rules should be applied equally? Why should I send my money to support a team made up of people who feel is is understandable that someone would jump an obviously lame horse over a 4**** fence? Why should I send my money to a group of people who feel only the highest level of rider can have a valid opinion worthy of being heard?

So sending my money to someone who might be able to take some decisions out of the hands of the current group begins to look like a good idea. Not that I have any love for the HSUS believe me I don't. It is however becoming a case of the lessor of two evils. With the HSUS at least there is a chance they will listen. The other group has already let me know they won't.

Who won't listen to your wonderful ideas, Chaotic mind? Eventing can't afford to lose supporters like you! But, as you have explained, transfering your support to HSUS is really going to make Eventing better, right?;)

Gnep
Jul. 28, 2007, 12:24 AM
J Swan,
I agree with you, this sport has done an huge amount of work to make it saver, for our horses and our self.
I Evented as a young one in the late sixtees and as a young adult UL in the seventees and early eighties.
The differance is like day and night.
Now I Event and built jumps and work with course designers it is a completly new world.

But as in any other profession, people have to face the music for their decisions, even if you think you made the right one and it turns out to be the wrong one, it does not matter in any other profession or in just plain live.
Everybody is always, or should be, responsebile for once action and the result of the action.

DW i had once a student, 12 year old girl, she missed 3 times the finishline in a row, 3 times, by around 4 feed, she could not tell left from right. so when we walked the next course I had her climb on my back after the last jump and gallop with her through the finish. Mind ya I am a smoking and beer gusling old fart. I colapsed shortly after the finishline yelling and down the stretch they come, she was kicking me like crassy, we nearly got a speeding ticket.
It was the first finish line she made that this season.
Hihihihi she enjoyed kiking my ass for a change

fergie
Jul. 28, 2007, 12:29 AM
DW i had once a student, 12 year old girl, she missed 3 times the finishline in a row, 3 times, by around 4 feed, she could not tell left from right. so when we walked the next course I had her climb on my back after the last jump and gallop with her through the finish. Mind ya I am a smoking and beer gusling old fart. I colapsed shortly after the finishline yelling and down the stretch they come, she was kicking me like crassy, we nearly got a speeding ticket.
It was the first finish line she made that this season.
Hihihihi she enjoyed kiking my ass for a change

Right, but she wasn't an Olympic team member though, was she?

indigoecho
Jul. 28, 2007, 01:41 AM
And again, you're not reading my post. Most of it was a general comment on the content of all the posts.

EVERYBODY agrees she should have known. Should have stopped.

What do you want? Do you want her to wear a hairshirt? Be banned from the sport forever? A criminal prosecution? Exactly what is going to satisfy this desire for blood?

How does this mistake equate to the willfull, intentional and malicious acts that are committed against horses in the name of winning, a sale, revenge, ignorance, or stupidity. By amateur and professional alike?

Why does AT deserve more punishment than most convicted animal abusers? Because of who she is? She should have known better? We all should know better.

Who in eventing has said that they intend to learn nothing from this incident? Who has said they do not care about the horse, or care that LS died? Was not action taken at Rolex? Yes. Did it proceed further? Yes. Did action result? Yes. Will AT appeal? No.

That's more action than a case of two people who got mad at their dog and poured lighter fluid on it, then set it on fire and chased it - while neighbors screamed and tried to put out the fire.

Or people that get stoned and microwave their dog.

Forgiving AT isn't difficult for me because I've seen REAL crimes and know what AT did is not the same. I don't require a pound of flesh to be satisfied where this incident is concerned.

That doesn't mean what I think she did is ok or excusable. I just don't think she needs to shut herself away in a nunnery for it.

If you no longer care for AT, I think she'll get over it.


I think you make a lot of valid points with which I wholeheartedly agree. At least for me, and I would wager lots of others who seem to share the same stance as I do, I'm more upset with how the whole thing was handled by Amy and The Powers That Be after the fact, than the actual event itself.

JSwan
Jul. 28, 2007, 03:25 AM
I agree. She probably kept silent on the advice of counsel, which people interpreted as shame or conspiracy, then afterwards, got verbal diarrhea, which people interpret as something akin to the "If I Did It" book of OJ Simpson.

It could certainly appear that way. Maybe these folks need a pr manager - or a better one. Or a severe case of laryngitis.

I get a kick out of the gov't regulation of eventing - yeah - that's what we need. And HSUS? By all means - send that cash in. Whoo Hooo - they'll cash your check and ask for more - while they litigate to have all kinds of horse stuff banned. Guess that's one way to fix any problems. Just ban the sport. Way to go.

(for any that wonder why I'm posting at 3am; I've got a wicked case of poison ivy and I'm scratching like crazy and waiting for Benadryl to kick in)




I think you make a lot of valid points with which I wholeheartedly agree. At least for me, and I would wager lots of others who seem to share the same stance as I do, I'm more upset with how the whole thing was handled by Amy and The Powers That Be after the fact, than the actual event itself.

Paks
Jul. 28, 2007, 09:13 AM
....:rolleyes:
Excellent Idea! The HSUS could lobby to draft new laws regulating Eventing, which the police could enforce! :eek: Why hasn't anyone thought of this partnership before? I had a feeling that if we kept hammering away at this issue, someone would solve the problem!

Who won't listen to your wonderful ideas, Chaotic mind? Eventing can't afford to lose supporters like you! But, as you have explained, transfering your support to HSUS is really going to make Eventing better, right?;)

Actually you get my point if they higher ups don't make a change it is a real possibility that something like that could happen. As I have said I have no love for the HSUS. However it is not the police that regulate sorring in TWHs but USDA agents (you had that one wrong).

Right now we have people who seem to expect us to believe on needs a video in order to tell if their horse is lame. HSUS would be the other end of the spectrum. If our leadership is not going to start to find a middle ground and is going to hold some people above the rules (I am talking of Mark Phillips here). You are giving some real leverage to organizations like the HSUS.

There are 3 choices: change the leadership in the USEA and USEF (really don't care if the change is their attitudes or who is in those positions), Start another organization to take it's place(not very viable for a variety of reason) or the lobby organizations pass laws to have the USDA take over, the equivalent of what is the norm in many other countries.

The message I am trying to send is clean up your act or someone may clean it up for you and that usually isn't good but it may become necessary unless our organization can wake up and take a good look around them. The equine welfare groups got their slaughter agenda met. The olympics with all it's media attention is around the corner. Where do you think they will set their sights next? Especially with this travesty so nicely handed to them on a platter by our leadership.

Hony
Jul. 28, 2007, 09:18 AM
Right, but she wasn't an Olympic team member though, was she?
Ian Roberts was and he missed the finish flags at a major event once.



What I don't get is everyone talking about how physically exhausted she was. Yes, I'm sure that cross country is extremely taxing. I won't pretend that it's not. But I don't understand how endurance riders can trot, canter, and gallop 100 miles over mountainous terrain and not get so delusional that they have no clue what's going on with the mount beneath them. Endurance riders go through strenuous vet checks every 15 or so miles and have to pass all sorts of criteria. It requires the rider to monitor their heart rate, respiration, soundness, and energy level throughout the entire ride. They are often riding in the dark with a head lamp for many many hours straight with little sleep, little food and drink. That's why it's called "Endurance" because you have to endure the rigors of the sport.
So I have a hard time understanding how a 15 minute cross country course can exhaust you so badly that you can't even think straight. Can someone explain to me what I'm missing?

I feel qualified to answer this since I have ridden several 100mile endurance and competetive trial rides and have competed at the Can Nat. Champs for competetive trail.
Endurance to XC is like long distance running to sprint running. Endurance riding requires muscular endurance whereas XC requires a more concentrated effort using muscular strength or force. Try doing a few gallop sets in two point and you will see what I mean. My friend galloped my horse last week and did only 3 sets at 4 minutes. She could barely walk the next day. Now imagine doing that for 11-15 minutes straight.



And the thing with endurance riding is that at the end of the race, the horse has to be judged "Fit to Continue" by the ride vets. In other words, he needs to look like he could go out there and do another 35, 50 or 100 miles. The horse cannot be spent. There has to be gas in the tank yet.
Event horses go through similar rigours. There is an in barn vet check when they arrive, similar to the first check prior to an endurance ride. there is a trot up the next day, prior to dressage to assess soundness. There horse is assessed in dressage and if a lame horse is noted in dressage they can still be DQed. There is a vet check in the 10 minute box on XC and there is a check after XC. In endurance there is usually a check every 12 miles or so. With this in mind you will see that XC horses actually have even more frequent vet checks than Endurance horses when you compare the time and distance.
XC horses must be deemed fit to continue after XC and during the jog the following morning before show jumping. If they are not, they do not show jump. If they don't show jump they don't complete.
XC is much harder on horses in some ways because they gallop which puts 80% of the horses weight on its forelegs. Endurance is done mostly at the trot.


It almost seems to me that the CC associations could take some lessons from the endurance associations. Not saying that the endurance people are better, but they seem to have a decent handle on monitoring horse and rider fitness and health.
I hope the previous gives you some idea of how the two associations are similar. I would also like to point out that I have been at plenty of rides where horses are pulled up exhausted or unable to continue due to injury or tying up. There are mishaps in every sport.

kcmel
Jul. 28, 2007, 02:16 PM
Here is my take. Horses have been bred for centuries to be our willing partner, and trained to put their trust in us. It is a big responsibility for us at all levels not to betray that trust. I think this is what makes this situation so gut-wrenchingly sad, that this horse was willing to listen to his rider to continue on, over all of his instincts telling him to stop. Regardless of whether AT was tired, or whether she was overly competitive, or what her motivations were, such an egregious lapse in horsemanship should disqualify her from the Olympic team.

shea'smom
Jul. 28, 2007, 10:48 PM
Amy's statement was what I expected, as was the FEI ruling. I completely understand her take on the situation, I understand exactly what she meant by saying that she didn't know where the finish line was, as in, she wasn't thinking about where it was but concentrating on pulling her horse up safely.
Rolex is not an endurance ride, you don't have the same adreneline, concern with falling over a fence, at a 35 mile ride, hopefully.
She made a terrible mistake, I can see how it happened, I hope I am never in that position.
I have evented for over 30 years and perhaps have a different perspective that some people.

Auventera Two
Jul. 29, 2007, 02:04 PM
Thank you Hony, for your comments. :) Yesterday I did a 35 mile LD ride and we galloped every chance we got. My friend and I ended up off course and did over 20 miles before finding the first vet check. Yech, that sucked. But my mares both came in great at the first check with excellent P&R. We were tired, but we were far from completely exhausted. We did pull at the next check, 12.5 miles down the trail. By that time I had been riding for 7 1/2 hours (thanks to being lost for so long) and I don't sweat, and it was 88 degrees. I was pretty miserable. But I never at any point felt completely dilusional, or exhausted to the point I couldn't be aware of my horses needs. Yes, I will freely admit that I was not riding effectively anymore. But I was in tune with what my mare was telling me. We'd trot until I could feel her flailing her fronts out to the side, meaning she was too tired to trot square. Then we'd walk for half a mile and rest. We'd canter until I felt her hind end start to sway, and then we'd rest at the trot for a while. Yes, I got to where I told my friend, "Sorry, I cannot talk anymore, I'm just too tired." And she agreed. We needed every bit of energy to ride. We couldn't carry on a conversation anymore.

I do gallop sets with my horses at home and I've trotted for miles at a time before. Sorry, but posting the trot for a mile is harder (to me anyway) than sailing along at an effortless gallop for a mile. The gallop is rolling and smooth. The trot is a diagonal gait with a clear moment of suspension that your body has to "deal with" someway or another.

So I don't know - I'm sorry - but after riding 7 1/2 hours yesterday in 88 degrees, mostly at the trot, while dehydrated and sick, I still can't see how you can be so physically and mentally exhausted after a measely 11 minutes that you just have no clue what's going on beneath you. The first 30 minutes of my training rides at home are at the trot and gallop and then the next 3-4 hours is the real work. So I guess the whole 11 to 15 minutes thing is really throwing me off.

I'm honestly not trying to snipe at anyone. I just honestly do not understand how it's possible.

flutie1
Jul. 29, 2007, 02:43 PM
....:rolleyes:

Who won't listen to your wonderful ideas, Chaotic mind? Eventing can't afford to lose supporters like you! But, as you have explained, transfering your support to HSUS is really going to make Eventing better, right?;)

Oh my, Groom. Aren't we crusty today?

buschkn
Jul. 29, 2007, 03:19 PM
IMO, from watching the video, she knew very well where the finish line was. She wasn't slowly pulling him up. She kicks him on again when he tries to break and he seems to stop of his own accord as soon as they cross the line.

I find the incident appalling, but almost as much so, the ridiculous excuses that followed. If she had taken more responsibility I wouldn't have lost as much respect. Couldn't feel that he was 3 legged lame, didn't know where the finish line was, etc.

I think someone else point out nicely that these animals put their faith in us to ask of them only what they can do. It is our duty to be their stewards and put their wellbeing above all else. Watching him struggle to do her bidding was truly heart breaking.

jetsmom
Jul. 29, 2007, 08:07 PM
Thank you Hony, for your comments. :) Yesterday I did a 35 mile LD ride and we galloped every chance we got. My friend and I ended up off course and did over 20 miles before finding the first vet check. Yech, that sucked. But my mares both came in great at the first check with excellent P&R. We were tired, but we were far from completely exhausted. We did pull at the next check, 12.5 miles down the trail. By that time I had been riding for 7 1/2 hours (thanks to being lost for so long) and I don't sweat, and it was 88 degrees. I was pretty miserable. But I never at any point felt completely dilusional, or exhausted to the point I couldn't be aware of my horses needs. Yes, I will freely admit that I was not riding effectively anymore. But I was in tune with what my mare was telling me. We'd trot until I could feel her flailing her fronts out to the side, meaning she was too tired to trot square. Then we'd walk for half a mile and rest. We'd canter until I felt her hind end start to sway, and then we'd rest at the trot for a while. Yes, I got to where I told my friend, "Sorry, I cannot talk anymore, I'm just too tired." And she agreed. We needed every bit of energy to ride. We couldn't carry on a conversation anymore.

I do gallop sets with my horses at home and I've trotted for miles at a time before. Sorry, but posting the trot for a mile is harder (to me anyway) than sailing along at an effortless gallop for a mile. The gallop is rolling and smooth. The trot is a diagonal gait with a clear moment of suspension that your body has to "deal with" someway or another.

So I don't know - I'm sorry - but after riding 7 1/2 hours yesterday in 88 degrees, mostly at the trot, while dehydrated and sick, I still can't see how you can be so physically and mentally exhausted after a measely 11 minutes that you just have no clue what's going on beneath you. The first 30 minutes of my training rides at home are at the trot and gallop and then the next 3-4 hours is the real work. So I guess the whole 11 to 15 minutes thing is really throwing me off.

I'm honestly not trying to snipe at anyone. I just honestly do not understand how it's possible.



Doesn't your horse have ringbone, or do I have you confused with someone else?

Whisper
Jul. 29, 2007, 09:16 PM
What do you want? ...How does this mistake equate to the willfull, intentional and malicious acts that are committed against horses in the name of winning, a sale, revenge, ignorance, or stupidity. By amateur and professional alike?

Why does AT deserve more punishment than most convicted animal abusers? Because of who she is? She should have known better? We all should know better.

I think a 4 month suspension and losing her place on the Olympic team would be appropriate. That would cover pretty much the rest of this season. I agree that it wasn't as bad as deliberate abuse, but 2 months just doesn't seem enough, either. :(

I think that it's understandable that she didn't realise he was seriously hurt. Since she said that she thought he threw a shoe or boot, she obviously knew something was happening, so I don't think there was an error in judgement due to her being exhausted, or that she wasn't able to pull him off of the fence. I do think that 30 seconds should have been ample for one of the spectators to attempt to flag her down/stop her if it was that obvious in person. I wouldn't take the comment about the finish line to mean she doesn't usually know where it is, but that as soon as she felt that he was in trouble, she stopped focusing on that and tried to stop him as gently but quickly as possible. From the video, it looks to me like she deliberately crossed the finish line, but I'm not a mindreader.

BarbB
Jul. 29, 2007, 09:42 PM
Sorry, but posting the trot for a mile is harder (to me anyway) than sailing along at an effortless gallop for a mile. The gallop is rolling and smooth.
.

That lovely rolling gallop keeps getting interrupted by BIG fences set in combinations so that you have to make the perfect approach;
angle
speed
length of stride
shape of the horse
his balance
your balance over the horse
the right amount of support...

to jump the first one or the next one will be a disaster. A REAL disaster, riders are killed in rotational falls because they got it wrong.
Very few fences at the **** level are fly fences.

Just not EXACTLY the same as that nice romp in a field.

Hony
Jul. 29, 2007, 11:16 PM
Thank you Hony, for your comments. :) Yesterday I did a 35 mile LD ride and we galloped every chance we got. My friend and I ended up off course and did over 20 miles before finding the first vet check. Yech, that sucked. But my mares both came in great at the first check with excellent P&R. We were tired, but we were far from completely exhausted. We did pull at the next check, 12.5 miles down the trail. By that time I had been riding for 7 1/2 hours (thanks to being lost for so long). We'd trot until I could feel her flailing her fronts out to the side, meaning she was too tired to trot square. Then we'd walk for half a mile and rest. We'd canter until I felt her hind end start to sway, and then we'd rest at the trot for a while.
I do gallop sets with my horses at home and I've trotted for miles at a time before. Sorry, but posting the trot for a mile is harder (to me anyway) than sailing along at an effortless gallop for a mile. The gallop is rolling and smooth. The trot is a diagonal gait with a clear moment of suspension that your body has to "deal with" someway or another.

This IMHO is dangerous riding. Never would I try to make up 20 miles by galloping. CTR and Endurance should be done primarily at trot/canter, not gallop.
When I'm eventing if I have a stop I won't try to chase the time if it is unreasonable. It is about my safety and my horse's safety and I don't want to come in on time with a tired horse.
I certainly would not wait until my horse started to sway on XC before easing up. This is a stage I do not ever want to reach. It is also a stage I would never want to reach doing long distance riding.
I do not mean to be rude but I don't think that you can possibly understand what it is like to gallop at high speeds for 11 or more minutes until you have done it. It can be exhausting.
AT looked tired and I'm not using this as an excuse for her but fatigue clouds judgment, just as being at the last fence does. I sincerely believe that we will never know what was going through her mind when it happened, however she has been punished two fold, through the tribunal and through the loss of her horse. People should be given the opportunity to redeem themself when they have done wrong. I wish others would remember this when they are condemning her.

JSwan
Jul. 30, 2007, 06:24 AM
I'll agree with you there - if people think a somewhat more severe sentence is appropriate, that would be reasonable.

Some folks are talking about permanent bans or not being allowed to own horses. That's just too much. I think we should save those punishment for the real bad guys. That and having HSUS police the sport (gag, barf). I can just see some HSUS staff member who is also a Strasser nut/bitless nut ranting about event horses being tortured with horse shoes because it upsets the horse's yin.


I think a 4 month suspension and losing her place on the Olympic team would be appropriate. That would cover pretty much the rest of this season. I agree that it wasn't as bad as deliberate abuse, but 2 months just doesn't seem enough, either. :(

magnolia73
Jul. 30, 2007, 08:28 AM
It's not her fault she got such a light punishment. I think her loss is in potential clients.

Like I said- the bigger black eye goes to the sport. That image makes me cringe the way watching sored TWH does. It supports every bad perception of eventers that there could be. When people say eventers take too many risks they will point to that video. When people say that eventing is too hard on the horses, they will point to that video. When people question the horsemanship of eventers they will point to that video.

It is going to take a lot for the sport to overcome that. Clean events with no deaths or injuries. Images of riders like Mara Dean pulling up immediately. Horses retiring sound and happy at the age of 20. This past year was awful- with rider and horse fatalities. That video was just icing on the cake.

Thomas_1
Jul. 30, 2007, 09:58 AM
Thank you Hony, for your comments. :) ...... blah de blah de blah de blah ...... I still can't see how you can be so physically and mentally exhausted after a measely 11 minutes that you just have no clue what's going on beneath you..... blah de blah de blah de blah........ I'm honestly not trying to snipe at anyone. I just honestly do not understand how it's possible.

Well of course you wouldn't understand you spent an inordinate amount of time TELLING me and many others on another forum that Endurance is NOTHING to do with being competitive and winning. That it was just about taking part!

So you're pottering about brand new to endurance and with the mindset that its about being non competitive and just having a long trail ride and completing if you can.

I could have an "interesting" debate with your approach of waiting till the horse shows signs of exhaustion at a pace before you change it... But I won't because it would be a waste of time, trouble and effort and you wouldn't understand.

Likewise I found the following "interesting" in the extreme!


I think those vets were really picky. They told me my QH was lame. They said it looked like she was on hot coals. Well, she was moving no different than she does every other day of the week, and every other day for the last 11 years of her life! The vet said it's obvious she's had a short trim. I said that's impossible because I trim her myself and I know for a fact I didn't quick her because I don't touch the sole at all........ They felt her pasterns thoroughly, and she does have slight ringbone
It's easy to sit on 'the' Tribunal and pass judgement. A lot harder to have experienced first hand what happened and make a decision. I saw it on TV as it happened and have it recorded. When you aren't specifically setting yourself up to watch 'a video of a horse going catastrophically lame', the perspective can be quite a bit different.

Clearly the horse injured itself and clearly she pushed it on.

And its right and proper that the matter was fully and properly investigated, explained and understood.

In my opinion the judgement of the tribunal was right and proper and fair in consideration of all the circumtances.

However I just want to step in and say that I'm finding all the slamming comments somewhat over the top.

How many times have we read on this forum about folks with lame or otherwise unsound horses continuing in work and with no vet call out.

Things like "I don't think the saddle fits - but I can't afford a new one yet". "Can you see where he's lame and I can't get a vet out". "He's bucking, throwing his head up (insert behaviour of choice) but I can't get a chiropracter/vet/physio because its too far/too much". And then there's the ones who describe their horse as 80% sound - WTF is that? so they just go trail riding! or just jump once a week! And how many times do you look at a photo of someones horse and think eeek the rider is too big for the horse, the horse is in poor condition - thin/fat/no musculature, the horse's feet are terrible? Or they're starting to do endurance with a horse that has had ringbone or some perhaps some major conformational fault that is predisposing to lameness in the long term.

The governing body took into account the full circumstances of what happened and with knowledge and understanding of competition at that level in that discipline.

I'm not at all surprised that her competitive nature and riding skill came into play and so she pushed it on.

Its not right. Of course its not. So she made a mistake, and with hindsight its one that she'll never forget and neither will other people.

But you know its not as horrendous as many do and she's not the first and she won't be the last. Hers was in full view rather than the sort we read about on the likes of this forum. And without doubt its a demonstration of why as horse owners we all owe it to consider what we do with our horses and take responsibility for looking after them and that includes when things go wrong.

Perfect Pony
Jul. 30, 2007, 11:17 AM
Interesting post Thomas.

I have to say that the comments from AT (after reading them a couple times and really thinking about them) have made me feel a bit better and/or understand her position a bit more. I do feel a little more time for a suspension would have sent a bit more of a message, but like others I don't think she should be banned forever or made into a evil horse abuser. I DO think she made a terrible mistake/decision in that moment. And I DO think it highlights something that is a problem in this sport - the often times opposing forces of putting the horse first vs putting competition first. I think it's a part of making horses and horse sport into a business, and happens in all horse sport at the top levels.

I don't really know what the answer is. These opposing forces is why I left the "business" back in the early 90s. I just could not work in the industry because of my love for the animals. When money and ego becomes involved things happen that are morally suspect. But like Thomas outlined, it happens at all levels as well. I for one will always be haunted by the fact that I did not stop riding a horse I owned months earlier than I did despite my gut feelings that there was something terribly wrong (although I did spend thousands on vets and chiro and you name it and follow all their prescribed treatments and work schedules). Despite the vets my gut told me there was something career ending and I did not follow it. I imagine that is part of what happened with AT, and I hope that all this hoopla about it causes more riders to follow their gut in the future instead of second guessing it.

Auventera Two
Jul. 30, 2007, 12:39 PM
Doesn't your horse have ringbone, or do I have you confused with someone else?

I have 2 distance horses, and yes one has ringbone. The other is my young endurance prospect, who has only done 2 endurance rides so far. She's the Arab. The Appendix has Ringbone, and yes, she still does distance riding. It is very very mild, and causes her no pain that we are aware of. Obviously I don't work the crap out of her, and I imagine I will retire her by the end of next season, just because I don't want to make it any worse. Right now she is acting as babysitter for the greenie until she gets settled into the routine more thoroughly.

She has bad conformation and was trimmed horribly for so many years, and that's what caused it. With good trimming now, she is very comfortable. At our ride this weekend, the vets initially said she was lame, and I was ready to pull her, but they then decided it was her short, downhill quarter horse stride with upright shoulder. By the end of the ride they said she looked great, and trotted out just fine, which is common with some stock horses with large, heavy muscles. But we watch the soundness issue extremely close with her. There was an Ap there that the vet commented about the same type of movement, and that horse was built similarly to mine.

Auventera Two
Jul. 30, 2007, 12:49 PM
Well of course you wouldn't understand you spent an inordinate amount of time TELLING me and many others on another forum that Endurance is NOTHING to do with being competitive and winning. That it was just about taking part!

So you're pottering about brand new to endurance and with the mindset that its about being non competitive and just having a long trail ride and completing if you can.

I could have an "interesting" debate with your approach of waiting till the horse shows signs of exhaustion at a pace before you change it... But I won't because it would be a waste of time, trouble and effort and you wouldn't understand.

Actually, you're quite wrong Thomas. My comments were in reference to YOUR comments claiming that if an endurance horse does not win an endurance race, that it is considered a "loser." Semantics aside, endurance riders don't generally refer to their horse as a "loser" because they didn't win the race. They may still have been successful, had a good ride, and were happy to complete safely with a sound and healthy horse. They go back out there the next time and hope for a better ride. No big deal. Some people ride for the miles, and some ride for the wins. The AERC hands out many awards for mileage that don't necessarily have anything to do with wins. So your arguing that those who ride for completions are "losers" is something I have to disagree with. Endurance riding is for all types of people with all types of goals, and because some people may have different goals than me doesn't make them a loser. Sorry that you think it does.

You yammered on and on for many pages over the fact that there is only one winner, and everyone else loses. My position is that winning isn't always everything. And then you yammered again about winning not being everything, but being the ONLY thing. :rolleyes:

The entire conversation revolved around your position that if a horse doesn't win everything it ever enters, that it is therefore a loser. And keep in mind that the context of the conversation was barefoot endurance horses completing 50 and 100 mile rides with respectable placing, and ending sound and healthy. You then yammered again that they were in fact LOSERS because just finishing a 100 mile barefoot ride doesn't mean squat. It only matters if they crossed the finish first.

And so on and so forth......

Thomas_1
Jul. 30, 2007, 12:56 PM
I have 2 distance horses, and yes one has ringbone. The other is my young endurance prospect, who has only done 2 endurance rides so far. She's the Arab. The Appendix has Ringbone, and yes, she still does distance riding. It is very very mild, and causes her no pain that we are aware of. Obviously I don't work the crap out of her, and I imagine I will retire her by the end of next season, just because I don't want to make it any worse. Right now she is acting as babysitter for the greenie until she gets settled into the routine more thoroughly.

She has bad conformation and was trimmed horribly for so many years, and that's what caused it. With good trimming now, she is very comfortable. At our ride this weekend, the vets initially said she was lame, and I was ready to pull her, but they then decided it was her short, downhill quarter horse stride with upright shoulder. By the end of the ride they said she looked great, and trotted out just fine, which is common with some stock horses with large, heavy muscles. But we watch the soundness issue extremely close with her. There was an Ap there that the vet commented about the same type of movement, and that horse was built similarly to mine.

You previously said the quarterhorse cross breed had ringbone because of her conformation and in particular because she was built downhill with a significant 2" height difference in her measurement. And as seen here:

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3273
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3275

I also recall you were concerned the arab had stifle problems?

Auventera Two
Jul. 30, 2007, 12:59 PM
This IMHO is dangerous riding. Never would I try to make up 20 miles by galloping. CTR and Endurance should be done primarily at trot/canter, not gallop.
When I'm eventing if I have a stop I won't try to chase the time if it is unreasonable. It is about my safety and my horse's safety and I don't want to come in on time with a tired horse.
I certainly would not wait until my horse started to sway on XC before easing up. This is a stage I do not ever want to reach. It is also a stage I would never want to reach doing long distance riding.
I do not mean to be rude but I don't think that you can possibly understand what it is like to gallop at high speeds for 11 or more minutes until you have done it. It can be exhausting.
AT looked tired and I'm not using this as an excuse for her but fatigue clouds judgment, just as being at the last fence does. I sincerely believe that we will never know what was going through her mind when it happened, however she has been punished two fold, through the tribunal and through the loss of her horse. People should be given the opportunity to redeem themself when they have done wrong. I wish others would remember this when they are condemning her.

Everyone knows their own horse and rides their own ride accordingly. I won't push my horses either dangerously. Once they start to tell me they're tired, I quit.

Thanks for your comments on the 11 minute galloping and jumping. I don't ride XC, so I don't know what it's like. Sure won't pretend that I do. I guess I just agree with those who say if she's so exhausted that she can't make good judgement calls, then I'm not entirely sure why she's competing at that level. It seems that her competitors managed their exhaustion level. Everyone has their own opinions of the situation, and are free to them. :) I appreciate yours though mine is different. I just find it tragic how this event could hurt the horse world at large due to the perception.

Auventera Two
Jul. 30, 2007, 01:05 PM
You previously said the quarterhorse cross breed had ringbone because of her conformation and in particular because she was built downhill with a significant 2" height difference in her measurement. And as seen here:

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3273
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3275

I also recall you were concerned the arab had stifle problems?

Glad to see you're stalking me again. Perhaps you'll leave some of the other girls alone now. ;)

No, the Arab has no stifle problems. When she was a baby she was difficult to pick her hind feet because she would stick them straight out behind and I was scared that she had stifle problems. But as she developed with more ground training, she became easy with her hind legs being held.

For the QH, what's your point? I think I've said about a zillion times now that the mare is both metabolic, and downhill built with ringbone and arthritis as a result. In fact, I say this over and over again on these forums as an example of why it is so vitally important to NOT breed these downhill quarter horses, and to manage diets very carefully so horses don't become metabolic.

That's why I carefully manage her and don't push her behind her limits. That's why at endurance rides, vets thoroughly check horses and determine if they are fit to ride or not. That's why she has only been entered in 2 LD rides. That's why our training rides at home don't exceed 20 miles. That's why I regulary consult with my vet and keep current x-rays. That's why a block determined that the ringbone causes her no pain at this time. That's why I have raised a new endurance horse to take her place, when the ringbone developed and I knew she wouldn't be able to continue and become my endurance horse.

So now you can quit stalking me and go back to something more useful. ;) For being a professional farmer, professional trainer, professional rider, professional breeder, professional author, professional farrier, professional vet, and professional everything-else-under-the-sun, you sure do find a shocking amount of time to stalk and quote my posts over and over on every single thread I post on, across numerous forums. It's pretty icky actually. Blech.

hitchinmygetalong
Jul. 30, 2007, 01:12 PM
For the QH, what's your point? I think I've said about a zillion times now that the mare is both metabolic, and downhill built with ringbone and arthritis as a result.

And you ride her in endurance and long distance rides? :eek:

shea'smom
Jul. 30, 2007, 01:21 PM
Why is Auventera Two's horse's conformation part of this discussion? Why are people trying to make some kind of point about it?
And ATwo, as far as Amy's competition not being exhausted and not making bad decisions, we really can't speak to that, can we? They weren't faced with this situation.
Interesting thread here.

Thomas_1
Jul. 30, 2007, 01:25 PM
Glad to see you're stalking me again. Perhaps you'll leave some of the other girls alone now. ;)

No, the Arab has no stifle problems. When she was a baby she was difficult to pick her hind feet because she would stick them straight out behind and I was scared that she had stifle problems. But as she developed with more ground training, she became easy with her hind legs being held.

For the QH, what's your point? I think I've said about a zillion times now that the mare is both metabolic, and downhill built with ringbone and arthritis as a result. In fact, I say this over and over again on these forums as an example of why it is so vitally important to NOT breed these downhill quarter horses, and to manage diets very carefully so horses don't become metabolic.

That's why I carefully manage her and don't push her behind her limits. That's why at endurance rides, vets thoroughly check horses and determine if they are fit to ride or not. That's why she has only been entered in 2 LD rides. That's why our training rides at home don't exceed 20 miles. That's why I regulary consult with my vet and keep current x-rays. That's why a block determined that the ringbone causes her no pain at this time. That's why I have raised a new endurance horse to take her place, when the ringbone developed and I knew she wouldn't be able to continue and become my endurance horse.

So now you can quit stalking me and go back to something more useful. ;) For being a professional farmer, professional trainer, professional rider, professional breeder, professional author, professional farrier, professional vet, and professional everything-else-under-the-sun, you sure do find a shocking amount of time to stalk and quote my posts over and over on every single thread I post on, across numerous forums. It's pretty icky actually. Blech.

Spare me such nonsense!

Perhaps I am just better at being able to manage my business and have better staff than folks you know.

As it happens I was sent PM's with links and it was suggested I have a look at the silly things you were saying.

And the point is "folks who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones". Seems to me that considering your horse's condition, your high moral opinion about a competitor continuing on with an injured horse is somewhat duplicitous.

And the point is also that a panel of tecnnical experts have reviewed the behaviour of the competitor in question and have meted out penalty and so its absurd that those who know little to nothing about it should see fit to feel they know best.

mp
Jul. 30, 2007, 01:32 PM
We'd trot until I could feel her flailing her fronts out to the side, meaning she was too tired to trot square. Then we'd walk for half a mile and rest. We'd canter until I felt her hind end start to sway, and then we'd rest at the trot for a while.


I won't push my horses either dangerously. Once they start to tell me they're tired, I quit.

These two statements are antithetical.

Auventera Two
Jul. 30, 2007, 02:22 PM
Why is Auventera Two's horse's conformation part of this discussion? Why are people trying to make some kind of point about it?

Becuase Thomas stalks me. Seems he gets his rocks off on it. He's done it for well over a year now. I had to turn off my PMs for a while too just to get a rest.

Also because Thomas can't seem to understand the concept that I "don't" push my horse beyond her capabilities. I manage her meticulously but Thomas seems to think I abuse the poor thing.

Funny at the 2nd vet check yesterday when I decided to pull, I had 2 vets, a volunteer, and a ride manager encouraging me to just bang out the last 8 miles because I was "sooo close!" Nope. I was too hot and too sick and I wasn't riding effectively anymore. They kept saying that my horses looked great, just go for it! The Arab was full of piss and vinegar and even after 7 1/2 hours, managed to get rowdy in the 2nd vet hold. The QH trotted out great and had excellent P&R scores. But I couldn't because it wouldn't be fair to them or myself. My friend and I were just flat DONE. Thomas is free to whatever opinion he decides on, makes no difference to me. It's the constant harassment and stalking every day, on every thread, on every forum, that gets tiring.


And ATwo, as far as Amy's competition not being exhausted and not making bad decisions, we really can't speak to that, can we? They weren't faced with this situation.
Interesting thread here.

I actually agree with you. I was just trying to figure out if being completely exhausted to the point of being incapable of rational thought after 11 minutes of galloping is normal in eventing. I imagine it's not. Maybe AT just had too much heat, maybe she was feeling sick that day, you're right, we don't know. I just think the whole situation is tragic.

Auventera Two
Jul. 30, 2007, 02:25 PM
These two statements are antithetical.

At the first sign of tiring, I bring my horses down to the gait they can recover at. I don't keep pushing. Neither of my mares EVER require urging. I let them tell me when they've had enough. If my horse ever breaks from a canter to a trot, I don't push her back up because I know them well enough to know that when they break gait, we've done too much. When you're trotting or cantering and you feel the first bit of unevenness in the gait, or you feel that the horse isn't quite "together" then you know that it's time to rest. But in the majority of instances, *I* need a rest long before the horse does so we've already dropped back to a walk long before the horse gets tired ;)

Thomas_1
Jul. 30, 2007, 02:53 PM
Becuase Thomas stalks me. Seems he gets his rocks off on it. He's done it for well over a year now. I had to turn off my PMs for a while too just to get a rest. Of course the truth is that you were already spouting forth and another poster had made mention of your horse with ringbone before I ever appeared.

But DO NOT LIE by giving the impression that I send you frequent PM's. I've sent you a few and in response to your direct questions or to your PM's to me and IF you want to play dirty, I will remind you what you specifically sent to me in January this year:

Well, I hesitate to stir up more stink than I already have because I was warned by Erin that she would permanently ban me if I caused any more uproar.

PM's are a matter of record and I have that record.

Also because Thomas can't seem to understand the concept that I "don't" push my horse beyond her capabilities. I manage her meticulously but Thomas seems to think I abuse the poor thing. Well I never said that at all. But if the cap fits wear it

wabadou
Jul. 30, 2007, 06:30 PM
...dink....dinkdink....dinkdadinkdink...




(....that was a pin dropping....)



(.....Thomas and Auv. Two, could you take this debate private?)

snoopy
Jul. 30, 2007, 06:37 PM
Of course the truth is that you were already spouting forth and another poster had made mention of your horse with ringbone before I ever appeared.

But DO NOT LIE by giving the impression that I send you frequent PM's. I've sent you a few and in response to your direct questions or to your PM's to me and IF you want to play dirty, I will remind you what you specifically sent to me in January this year:


PM's are a matter of record and I have that record.
Well I never said that at all. But if the cap fits wear it



"WHO" keeps PM's from JANUARY?!! You two should "get a room" and get over it!!;):):D

(This is meant to be a bit of a giggle folks!!)

SoEasy
Jul. 30, 2007, 07:04 PM
All of you ... keep the personal crap off the Forums.

And I've about had it with this topic, it's been beaten to a pulp here and elsewhere.