Another AWS question [Archive]

Mudpie

Jul. 16, 2007, 12:57 PM

I have a mare and a yearling colt (both tbs) that I want to take to the AWS inspection that is coming up. It is more for my experience, since it is fairly close by and this is my first inspection.

I guess I have a few questions. They say tb's can be nominated. Does this mean they are approved for breeding but not registered with AWS? Is it worth my time to go for the inspection? Like I said its more for me. I want to go to the oldenburg one next year. Does AWS add any value onto a tb mare? I know it can't hurt to go. Are the mares only presented in hand, and NOT over fences? It doesn't say anything about free jumping like Oldenburg requires. I can see why Oldenburg and such registries are more respected then AWS.
Anything else I should expect?
And exactly who gets there horses branded? I do not plan on getting mine branded. And don't know if they offer it to tbs.
Thanks

Mudpie

Jul. 16, 2007, 03:41 PM

anyone?
Also, what registries do you recommend for me to take my tb mares to for inspection? Which ones are worth it and actually add value to the mares and foals?

tempichange

Jul. 16, 2007, 06:00 PM

Most, if not all books accept thoroughbred, contigent on pedigree, conformation and performance. If I had to take a thoroughbred mare through inspections it would be American Hanno or ISR Oldenburg. Not AWS.

spacely

Jul. 16, 2007, 06:06 PM

Don't even bother with AWS or AWR. If you really want a competant, fair evaluation of your mare take her to Old NA or RPSI.

~Freedom~

Jul. 16, 2007, 07:34 PM

I guess I have a few questions. They say tb's can be nominated. Does this mean they are approved for breeding but not registered with AWS?

I believe so.

tri

Jul. 16, 2007, 09:44 PM

Don't listen to people like Spacely. They have their own agenda. The AWS and RPSI are set up very similarly with various books. Just about anything can be approved in both registries' lower books but the highest books of both are fairly strict.

The AWR is run by the same person who used to run the American Holsteiner Horse Association (AHHA) so, what spacely, they were competent when it was holsteiners and had a brain explosition with the AWR? Try to represent facts, spacely and not unfounded gossip and just plain crap.

spacely

Jul. 17, 2007, 01:29 AM

No agenda here Tri. Just saying the OP might not want to waste her time & money on the AWS who will approve anything with a uterus or testicles regardless of pedigree. Very different from RPSI, which BTW is a credible European registry.

DownYonder

Jul. 17, 2007, 06:35 AM

The Oldenburg Horse Breeders' Society accepts JC registered mares, and their foals sired by Oldenburg-approved stallions are eligible for full registration papers issued from the Oldenburg Verband office in Germany. The Society is commonly referred to on the Internet as GOV because it is the official North American division of the German Oldenburg Verband - not to be confused with ISR/ONA which is a private registry not affiliated with the Verband. The 2007 inspection tours have already started, but there are still over three dozen inspection sites to be visited this year. Their website is http://www.oldenburghorse.com - the tour schedule is posted there.

sporthorsefilly

Jul. 17, 2007, 08:54 AM

The AWS accepts all horses. Jockey Club TBs are acceptable to all European Registries, which IMHO is a better way to go. The following information from the AWS may help you to understand:

" The AWS believes that they are the only Registry that is an 100% "OPEN" registry (even unknowns). The AWS registers, nominates, records, promotes & represents ALL TALENTED SPORT HORSES."

"Most, if not all other Sport Horse registrys are "FIXED" with some or all restrictions on bloodlines. "

Can you tell me which warmblood registries will accept Elite AWS mares?

"As stated above, most, if not all other Sport Horse registrys are "FIXED" with some or all restrictions on bloodlines.

The 2008 AWS Stallion Service Auction will be published in September - please consider some to the outstanding AWS "Approved for Breeding" stallions."

You may enjoy going to the inspection, but you will have to pay for it. The only added benefit to being an AWS approved TB is that you can show in the AWS IBC classes, or register foals with them. Horses are not given approval for breeding prior to age 3.

As you can see, no other European Registry accepts AWS horses. So to answer your question, this will not add value to your mare.

Personally, although I have an AWS registered WB, my TB and her WB foal were presented and approved BWP/NAD

Black Forest

Jul. 17, 2007, 09:18 AM

It really depends on which registry you want your eventual foals to be branded by / registered with.

What exactly is your overall plan - that will be a very good start ..

Is your TB colt already registered with the JC? In which case he would not be eligible for branding with anything else - he COULD be eligible for approval for breeding subject to stallion inspection and performance testing / performance requirments.

What are you intending to breed from the mare in future? If it's TBs then I would have said any WB registry is a waste of time at this stage. If you intend to breed her to a Warmblood stallion then any registry that stallion is approved for would be a great start!

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 17, 2007, 10:23 AM

Just saying the OP might not want to waste her time & money on the AWS who will approve anything with a uterus or testicles regardless of pedigree. Very different from RPSI, which BTW is a credible European registry.

Actually it is VERY difficult to get a horse APPROVED AWS. They do accept them into lower, non-breeding books. I have a Westfalen branded mare that scored nicely at her ISR/OLD inspection - Main Mare book, and just won her class at Morvan Park, but she didn't quite score high enough for Approval with the AWS. The AWS APPROVES probably less than 10% presented for their BREEDING book. I believe the other registries like RHPSI, OLD, BWP Approve most into their highest book, (ALL if the pedigree qualifies)

Will it add value to a JC mare, no, but it may be a good learning experience, and will allow you to compete for awards.

tri

Jul. 17, 2007, 10:24 AM

That is well said Black Forest. The problem here though, is every time you pick a new stallion to breed to, you have to take the mare to yet another inspection which cost a lot of time and money

sporthorsefilly

Jul. 17, 2007, 10:43 AM

Tri, Actually, you can use an outside (not in the mare's registry) stallion with some organizations, for an additional fee.

I agree with Fairview, NOT all horses are accepted for breeding with the AWS!
And, it would be a good learning experience. However, you have to become a member of AWS to go to the inspection and they are no longer free...so if you are investing $80 to join; $60 per horse for the inspection...it might be in your best financial interests to go to an inspection just as a spectator. Look over the various registries and decide which will work best for you.

If you ask 10 people on this board, you will get 10 suggestion...each touting their own registry.

What I tried to point out to you, is that European Registries tend to "honor" each others approved horses. AWS horses are not necessarily afforded the same reciprocity with the European registries.

Elegante E

Jul. 17, 2007, 10:53 AM

I've been to one AWS inspection with a cross I have. It was fun and informative. The inspection is similar to a Friesian Kuring, which I've watched. Since the AWS inspections are usually small, it does make for a pleasant experience and lots of time speaking with the well informed inspector.

Here's what to expect. Arrive at someone's barn and walk around trying to find out what's going on. Eventually find someone and get horse in stall. See some fugly horse only a blind man would bother inspecting or leave intact. See some lovely horses and some plain ones.

During the inspection, you stand the horse for them to look at then trot it around in a triangle pattern. If the horse is 2 and under, they have it "free longe", which is another way of saying let your horse run amuk scaring the judges and threatening to trample people. If the horse is older, you are saved this trauma, but the free longe is a good way of seeing the young one move.

The AWS DOES NOT REGISTER ALL HORSES. If the horse is poorly put together, it will score too low to register. Horses are given a score and a rating, as well as written comments. Only the nicest horses are given the higher ratings. It's a good experience and way to get one's feet wet in an inspection. Got to sit around with the inspector, who at mine was a very knowlegeable warmblood breeder and dressage rider. They are up front with your horse's strengths and weaknesses. They are there to inform breeders and help them. Very nice people and good organization.

tri

Jul. 17, 2007, 10:53 AM

I don't have horses registered with the AWS but I do get sick and tired of hearing the same old trash and false information spread regarding it. The AWS "accepts" all horses - geesh the all heralded TRACKING that so many want!! But they don't APPROVE FOR BREEDING all horses. You would think that the breeders here who are so in to their euro wb concept would understand that. I don't know if it is a deliberate thing or if it is a dense thing.

But I don't really agree that the euro registries honor others. I've been to KWPN-na inspections where branded hanoverian mares were turned down. Look at Art Deco, he was turned down by many of the euro registries. Rubinstien was turned down by the Westfalien registry and look what he did for the Oldenburgs!

If the horse has the pedigree and the quality, the registries will look at them.

tri

Jul. 17, 2007, 10:56 AM

Elegante, that is too funny! That describes just about every inspection I've ever been to regardless of which registry it is!

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 17, 2007, 11:26 AM

There are many AWS inspections that NO horse is "Approved". The top score in many cases is 72, 73. It takes a 75 to be approved, and that is pretty hard to get. The AWS doesn't even "register" them all. I have seen a few not make the Certified score at each inspection. I believe the RHPSI registers all horses presented. I thnk it is a German law that they HAVE to.

pintopiaffe

Jul. 17, 2007, 11:43 AM

AWS *does* record/register all horses. As does RPSI.

For recording purposes. They get assigned a 'registration number.' For the crossbreds who have no other chance of tracking, this is good, IMO.

From there, approvals, books etc. depend on performance and bloodlines. You gotta have at least one, at for the Elite book, BOTH.

My stallion, who made RPSI Book II with a lovely score and comments, will move up to Book I with his performance scores; was .02 from approval at AWS. We will move him up via those same scores, or by his progeny, but he was NOT approved for breeding, despite his filly getting Approved, Blue Preferred, and the Gold Medal.

I found it to be quite strict, and quite close, actually, to RPSI.

I think it's important to have someplace to register sporthorses, for the sake of recording bloodlines. I do think the name is soemwhat unfortunate, and there are probably still some growing pains, but the premise is very useful and important.

I'm still amazed at the bashing here. Yet many think AWR is fine--when it was pointed out in the last thread that AWR looks at QHs etc. They are both a reasonable choice for folks who would like their dollar and support to go to a US entity.

tri

Jul. 17, 2007, 12:45 PM

I agree, the AWS and RPSI are set up very very similarly. I dont have any problems with QH (sporthorse type) blood and don't hold it against the BWP, Oldna, Old Verband, RPSI, AWR or AWS for including it.

AWS has fantastic year end awards from what I understand as well.

sporthorsefilly

Jul. 17, 2007, 01:31 PM

I am the AWS in-hand awards director for Maryland, I have an AWS registered mare, who is elite, AWS approved for breeding, based on an in-hand score in USDF of 79; and has earned two stars in the 5 star program. She has been the top AWS 2 year old and 3 year old in-hand horse (Erin: This is not a brag, but used to explain a fact!)

I asked AWS which registries (other than AWS) would accept this mares AWS foal papers, which is where the quotes I made previously came from...directly from AWS in an e-mail reply to me. It was not meant to demean AWS but to point out that AWS horses MAY not be acceptable to other registries for anything other than their lowest mare book...even if they have an ELITE pedigree.

AWS does give more awards than most organizations. They are a gold; silver or bronze medallion on a red, white and blue human neck ribbon. The year end awards are a larger version. For the in-hand OR DSHB awards, they do not do USDF All Breed Awards, but give the award to the horse with the top score for the year...even if you only have one score, from one class in one show! Which was not the case with my horse.

AWS is extremely friendly to deal with, but they do things their way and often despite input from members.

The OP asked "Does AWS add any value onto a tb mare?" My response would be no. TB's are highly valued in all registries, and I would select the registry which has the type sires that I wanted to use in my breeding program.

La Gringa

Jul. 17, 2007, 01:53 PM

Texarkana

Jul. 17, 2007, 03:11 PM

You know this is a thought..

If people actually start supporting some of the AMERICAN WB societies, maybe they will eventually come out from under this dark cloud that so many people seem to want to cast over them.

It's just snobbery in my opinion. Why shouldn't we try to develop our own breed society? Granted the Germans, Dutch, Belgians etc have lots more experience and history, but if people keep with this attitude, the breeding of our own US bred American WB horses, and quality horses many of them will never get off the ground on our own. Why is it bad to be an American WB? (It's just like the stigma with Trakehners, why is it bad to be a Trakehner? It's just a bias. One of my best horses was a Trakehner and WON everything in the Jr Hunters on the A circuit.)

Being judgmental helps no one, it just alienates people. If people actually work towards building a good society of quality WB's here, maybe someday it will be actually recognized world wide as a quality registry.

Just my two cents. It sounds like a lot of rumor and bias is coming out here, and quite a bit unjustified. If someone wants to support AWS why knock them? Maybe they will contribute something good to it.

Just a thought... and a bit of a rant. I just hate reading such negativity, when someone asked a valid question on here..

Very well said.

I think people forget all registries have to start somewhere. Obviously the European registries were not founded with the beautiful WBs of today-- that is the product of hundreds of years of refinement. People forget the Europeans, too, started with light riding horses, draft horses, cart horses... anything that could contribute to their breeding goals and the bigger picture of the registry.

You've got to start somewhere, folks, and I think the main thing truly holding back the American registries is the closed-mindedness of the horse people in this country.

But then, many Americans tend to find all American-made products inferior to their European counterparts. So I guess it shouldn't surprise anyone that that mindset crosses over into the horse world.

Mudpie

Jul. 17, 2007, 03:24 PM

Thanks for all of the responses. Its good to get a view from everyone, no matter what they think of the registry. I don't think it will be a waste of my time to go. Maybe I will just take the mare and hold off on the colt, since he is only a yearling and things may change (like whether he will be gelded or not).

The mare is still open this year. I was going to breed her to a tb but held off. She is a great mover, big free shoulder and a nice neck set. I found an Irish Draught, and for some reason can't get him out of my mind. I guess AWS would be beneficial for her if I did breed her for an Irish Sport Horse. I am going to start stallion shopping now to find a nice wb to breed her to. She is off the track, and hasn't been restarted, so she needs some schooling and conditioning before going to Oldenburg. So that will wait until next year.

IF I do keep the colt a colt, and he is a full JC papered tb, is this a benefit to other mare owners in any way at all?

What bugs me about AWS is not the registry, but everyone that calls their draft cross an AWS when it has never been approved or registered with anything. Its like the knew box you can check on dreamhorse for warmbloods and you get a bunch of arabians and twh on your search.

The mare is not for sale. But maybe what I meant was will this add value to her foals? Like an Irish Sport Horse foal?

I'm all about buying and supporting American.

sporthorsefilly

Jul. 17, 2007, 03:38 PM

Actually there are draft crosses in the AWS! Here is one that anyone might drool over: http://users.erols.com/blackfoxfarm/index_files/Page360.htm

BFF In Disguise. He was the Gold Medalist at his AWS Inspection with a 78.2 and was 2006 5year old Young Event Horse Series Championship Finalist with a qualifying score of 86.86! Qualified for Dressage at Devon! He is fully approved for breeding in AWS.

He looks like a WB and has suspension to die for...not to mention manners too!

There is an Irish Sport Horse Registry that uses TBs...others on the Board will know more.

Arabian's, and TBs are often used in WB breeding. Take a look at Selle Francais pedigrees...you will find Arabs in the WB pool.

There are many, many, many TB stallions out there already available for breeding to both TBs and WBs.

Good Luck with your horses.

Texarkana

Jul. 17, 2007, 03:59 PM

I agree you should just take the mare-- that sounds like a good plan. No point in inspecting a yearling TB colt now... especially if he may end up being snipped down the line. You'll just waste your money. If you keep him a stallion, then yes, it could be beneficial for him to be inspected.

As for adding value to an Irish Sport Horse cross... really, as much as I support AWS, it doesn't really add value per se. If the ISH stallion is approved AWS, the foal can be registered AWS. If this foal is quality eventually goes on to be bred down the line, it will be very beneficial for him/her to have registration papers and a certificate of pedigree of some sort. Also, the AWS does offer the awards program which can be appealing to people wanting recognition for competition. But no, don't expect the AWS approval or registry to go adding thousand and thousands of dollars of worth to the horses.

What bugs me about AWS is not the registry, but everyone that calls their draft cross an AWS when it has never been approved or registered with anything. Its like the knew box you can check on dreamhorse for warmbloods and you get a bunch of arabians and twh on your search.

Yes, this is one downfall with AWS... the term "American Warmblood" has become synonymous with "draft cross." The only way to really eliminate that is with education and exposure. The bulk of the US horse people still operate under the assumption that warmbloods are nothing more than a hot blooded horse crossed with a cold blooded horse, therefore they can't understand why their US-born draft-X isn't an "American Warmblood."

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 17, 2007, 04:13 PM

Yes, this is one downfall with AWS... the term "American Warmblood" has become synonymous with "draft cross." The only way to really eliminate that is with education and exposure. The bulk of the US horse people still operate under the assumption that warmbloods are nothing more than a hot blooded horse crossed with a cold blooded horse, therefore they can't understand why their US-born draft-X isn't an "American Warmblood."

The only way to change that is by changing the name of the registry. People are NEVER going to stop calling their crosses American Warmbloods. A registry needs a unique name. A brand label. The AWS & AWR are owned by a single person. They are run by THEIR rules. Their dream, their rules.

I know I sound like a broken record, but...
WE need a credible "North American" Organization/Registry with a unique name, run by an ELECTED board made up of breeders, trainers, competitors, judges, and vets. An organization that will pool funds to do the kind of things for AMERICAN breeders and breeding that the AQHA does for the Quarter Horses. Also to have "power in numbers" to pressure the USEF for that "one number, tracking thing" :winkgrin:

spacely

Jul. 17, 2007, 04:21 PM

Here is another example of why the AWS has no credibility with a lot of breeders here: http://www.palominosbuckskinssporthorses.com/

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 17, 2007, 04:26 PM

spacely

Jul. 17, 2007, 04:30 PM

I do not feel the same way about the RPSI. My problem is that they are allowed to be called warmbloods which they clearly are not (unapproved or approved). AWS is an enabler in my book. If they want to register then for points & awards, have a seperate section for Draft, draft X's, whatever X's, but don't call them warmbloods. If AWS is your only option, then maybe you need to re-evaluate your breeding program.

La Gringa

Jul. 17, 2007, 05:42 PM

You know, way back when the Germans and French started creating these horses, they crossed Drafts with Throughbreds and Arabs to get these horses in the first place. Warmblood = crossed horse, hot blood X Cold Blood = Warmblood.

Every single one of these horses someplace in their line way back when has a heavy (god forbid) draft or draft cross in them. They were originially bred to work in fields and be riding horses, not sport horses. They pulled wagons and also did lighter work.

Originally a jack russell terrier was not a Jack Russell, it was a mix of breeds. Eventually the breed became recognized.

I think that anyone that thinks that their expensive Warmblood (including my own) didn't have some whatever blood in them way back when.. (they all do, every single one of them) is mistaken. How can we be sure that every horse in a WB pedigree is this or that? The only horses that don't have a mixture are the Purest of the Pure Arabians and Thoroughbreds. That's it.

I remember when these horses first started to come accross the pond and people had no idea what they were, and snubbed them because they were Warmbloods (mixed breed horse) instead of a Throughbred which dominated the hunters back then.

Another thing... because of the American preference in hunter type horses, we have actually influenced the trend in the breeding now a days.. do you realize this? Originially the old type Warmbloods were heavy clunky horses, a lot more like a draft than a TB. Were those horses still Warmbloods? Absolutely. An old type is still a Warmblood. It's ridiculous when people get so "uptight" about this "what I call my horse business" when in the end they are all mixed.

This is just pure snobbery nothing else.

I do understand the difference between a grade horse and a registered horse, but really to just knock a whole registry just because of snobbery isn't right. If people get educated and try to produce quality for the AWS or AWR then maybe the perception would change. Just because some backyard breeder post something on their website doesn't mean it's true either. Even if she says those horses are registered AWS there's no proof that they really are.. they could just be saying that to sell horses. Making it up.

risingstarfarm

Jul. 17, 2007, 05:52 PM

Actually, I believe that Light Agricultural horses (crossed with blood) were used to create today's modern Warmbloods.

I think that the Heavy Drafts, i.e. Clydesdales, etc. were just as carefully bred over time to develop into the specific heavy draft types that we see today.

I do not believe that what we recognize as heavy drafts today were crossed with blood (TBs, Arabs, etc) to create the foundations of the Warmblood bloodlines in the past.

As with any sort of "evolutionary" process, what we see today was NOT what existed in the past. So, the argument that Draft Crosses and Heavy Drafts were part of the foundation of Warmblood breeding doesn't make sense because those heavy horses probably didn't exist "back then" as they do today - or at least, there were substantially lighter horses that were used to breed what we came to recognize as Warmbloods.

Sorry this is repetitive, but I'm trying to work out my point :-)

La Gringa

Jul. 17, 2007, 05:59 PM

The Shire for one has been around since the middle ages, so I don't think that point is valid. There are very old Heavy Breeds, that have been around for a long time.

How can someone for sure know that one of these types of horses don't exist in a WB pedigree way way back. There is no way to know for sure. Years and years ago not all the registries keep such accurate records. Sure some of them did, but not all.

I don't think that heavy heavy drafts were used predominantly, of course not.. but draft blood mixed in there someplace does exist, it would have to to create the bone and the size that the Old Type WB's had. Where else would it have come from? It had to have been infused at some point to get the size and strength. That wouldn't come from a TB or other light horse.

Here's something I found related to at least the Shire..

The Shire horse, developed in England, traces it's history to the days of the Roman Conquest and is one of the oldest of the well-defined draft breeds. The name "Shire" also comes from England, and derives its name from the Saxon word "schyran," which means to shear or divide, hence the name "Shire," that is synonymous with county. King Henry VIII first applied the name "Shire" to the horse early in the 16th century.

Shires, in general, were used in the 16th century with paintings dating back to the 15th century that show them in the perfection of form. Without question, the Shire horse was used as a war-horse. Most people believe, and the story is told, that it was the Shire that was used by the knights, as they rode into battle, dressed in heavy armor with sword and lance poised. Everyone does not share this belief; however, even in England some doubt this as being true. However, with the passing of the tournament and heavily armored knight, the ancestor of the Shire Horse was put to work in harness pulling carts over rough roads and plows on the farm. The Shire became the largest and most powerful draft horse in Britain. It was, and still is, used by brewers in cities in stylish teams to pull beer wagons, in weight-pulling competition and in plowing competition.

The Shire was found and developed in all parts of England, but the counties of Lincoln, Derby, Cambridge, Norfolk, Nottingham, Leicester and Huntington, were the special homes. These are presently termed as the Midlands. History mentions the horse by different names notably, the Great Horse, the War-Horse, the Cart Horse, the Old England Black Horse, the Lincolnshire Giant as well as the Shire.

Like the other standard draft breeds, the Shire was improved by the infusion of outside blood at various times in history, notably that of the north German Flemish horses (Belgian) and the horses of Flanders. Reasonably good records exist, dating back nearly 1000 years. During this time outside blood continued to influence the breed as breeders were not hampered by a breed registry and no limits were imposed.

It was during the 18th century that this horse came into special use for draft and farm purposes. With the improvement of roads and the use of coaches, the draft horse came into special demand. During this time, Robert Bakewell greatly improved the Shire under the name of the Leicestershire Cart Horse, by introducing blood from Holland best, the Dutch Friesian.

~Freedom~

Jul. 17, 2007, 06:02 PM

AWS is an enabler in my book.

AWS-4 different approved TB and WB and WB cross stallions

http://www.brookstonefarms.com/Donnermeyer2.html

http://www.gethorses.net/

http://www.legendstudfarm.com/

http://www.dancinglite.com/gallery.html

risingstarfarm

Jul. 17, 2007, 06:15 PM

Nootka

Jul. 17, 2007, 06:18 PM

ahhh, but spacely, they are not Approved AWS. They are registered for document of pedigree and awards, not breeding. If presented to the RHPSI, they would have to be in Book II. So does the RHPSI share your lack of credibility?

One foal out of this sire did make Red preferred. http://www.palominosbuckskinssporthorses.com/photo_album.html

PineTreeFarm

Jul. 17, 2007, 06:25 PM

ahhh, but spacely, they are not Approved AWS. They are registered for document of pedigree and awards, not breeding. If presented to the RHPSI, they would have to be in Book II. So does the RHPSI share your lack of credibility?

I think this is apples and oranges.
The website spacely linked to mentions the offspring of the draft stallion being registered with AWS. RPSI Book II is for stallions that did not score high enough ( or need to do performance requirements,etc. ) to be approved for breeding. Book II isn't a place to record offspring.

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 17, 2007, 06:34 PM

Still, RPSI would have had to issue them a pedigree paper, the same as the AWS did. Red preferred is not high enough for Approval with the AWS. My mare was Red Prefered. She was not approved with the AWS, only with the ISR/OLD. Has to be Blue or Supreme, above 75% for AWS Approval. My mare now has the scores to move her up to Blue Preferred from her last show, so I will send that in and get her approval. That is what I DO like about the AWS. Breeds and inspectors are all knee deep in politics. The AWS allows (encourages?) their members to show and get their required scores from USEF licensed judges, at Recognized shows. Then it is not just the single opinion, and you are not held hostage by a good ole boy organization.

I am sure we have all seen really yucky horses presented by BNFs that were accepted, and we walked away going, HUH? OTOH, many nice horses have not been accepted because they were presented by the wrong people. I was personally there when Gold Luck was turned down for lisensing because he was the wrong type they were looking for. Can we say, "OOPS". ;)

tri

Jul. 17, 2007, 07:15 PM

Spacely, you have to remember that up until this year, the BWP also accepted horses with draft blood and the BWP, as mentioned, has a fully approved stallion that has a dam with QH blood. You are living in a glass house and throwing stones. You are wrong with regards to the your statement. Just admit it and LEARN.

Mudpie

Jul. 17, 2007, 07:42 PM

LaG- I totally understand and respect where the warmblood came from. I like draft x, and basically, if its a nice horse and I like it, I could care less where its registered, as long as it performs the way I want it to.
BUT a belgian draft horse is not a belgian warmblood. And I see many advertised this way.

As far as the website posted by Spacely, its very hard to come to a conclusion on what little information is posted on that site. There isn't any good confo pics of the horses, so I can't really say if I like them or not.

AWS is not my only option, it is one of many. My horses are already JC registered, I am looking to get them approved in other registries. As LaG said, its pure snobbery. Just b/c a horse is reg. AWS does not mean it is a piece of crap. There are misfits in every breed.

rcloisonne

Jul. 17, 2007, 08:00 PM

[QUOTE=risingstarfarm;2567746]Yes, some heavy drafts have been around for a long time - but so have some WBs. The Trakehner is 700 year old.
Please site your sources. The stud wasn't established until 1732 and the breed didn’t remotely resemble the current type until the 1800’s. 700 years old indeed! :rolleyes:

The Trakehner is a European warmblood horse of East Prussian origin, the foundation for which was laid at the main stud farm established in Trakehnen, East Prussia, in 1732. The breed's name is derived from this world-famous farm, and the bloodlines can be traced back to this source. At the beginning, the horse was a stocky strong native animal which needed size and refinement. The really important and decisive development of the breed, therefore, occurred in the early 1800s when top quality English Thoroughbred and Arabian blood began to be introduced in small quantities.

http://www.americantrakehner.com/The%20Breed/profile.htm

La Gringa

Jul. 17, 2007, 08:06 PM

La Gringa - it's true that some of the heavy drafts have been around for a long time -but it is also true that the light agricultural horses were used as the foundations for WB breeding. I think that a lot of what makes the heavy drafts so special and unique in their abilities are things that would not have been desired when breeding what became modern warmbloods. Think about the mechanics of pulling vs. the pushing from behind and the "engine" that typifies the modern warmblood.

Yes, some heavy drafts have been around for a long time - but so have some WBs. The Trakehner is 700 year old. Many of the other WB types date back to the 17 and 18th centuries and were derived from carriage horses - not horses used in the field.

Anyway, you are correct - it's a shame that better records weren't kept waaaay back when. It might be interesting to do some DNA testing to see what does comprise today's WB. However, I think that you will agree that crossing a Clydesdale with a TB does not produce an individual (albeit, potentially very nice) that is the same as what you get when crossing Primo de Bruyeres with Opaline des Pins.

I fully agree. My point was that we 100% can't say that absolutely no draft at all is in there. I know that many of the breeds are very old. Europe itself is very old.. someplace somewhere though someone probably used a draft cross or heavier type to beef up a horse for a particular use... to improve bone or improve temperment or something...

I agree that just a TB and a Shire doesn't make a modern warmblood.. that I know and agree with. The old types though did have a lot of Roman type heads.... where did that come from? The old heavier Hannoverians/Wesphalians particulaly... Gotthard for example had a horrendous head, thank God he could Jump because looks wise he wasn't the prettiest animal on the planet.

The modern WB is a different animal now, that I understand too. My point is that maybe people should start supporting an American WB society to produce good horses, here in the states, our own WB's. If quality knowledeable people like we have on this board were to come together and introduce great horses into the registry, then the stigma may go away. Just a thought..

tempichange

Jul. 17, 2007, 08:08 PM

While there was inclusion of draft blood way back when in the German Verbands, and they did accept individuals who, by today's standards would not pass because of what they would contribute to the gene pool six to ten generations down the line. It was the continious outcrossing , monitoring and improving that got us here. With their contribution we now have a horse that is capable of doing what we ask and thus, the breeding goals have realigned themselves.

My problem, and I can't speak for other members, is that AWS does not have a goal, or a purpose in mind for seven to 20 generations down the line. That they seemingly are to be more about awards than actual performance and pretty much accept everything from morgans to stock bred quarter horses. While that's nice, it's just not feasible for producing an upper-level sport horse or pony.

It's not so much American-bred (trust me we have the horses), but rather loose standards especially with the blood that has been floating around in the past 10 years. They are a diploma mill with no real credibility in the sport horse world and while they have nice individuals, those are few and far in between.

I often find those who protect or defend the society often have a vested interest, i.e. a horse that couldn't get registered somewhere else, stock that couldn't hold muster in the traditional verbands, an invested breeder, et all. If it makes you happy and their goals align with your goals, then go right ahead get the mare and foal tested. However, it's very telling to me that when other verbands don't accept papers from another verband than something is up.

But don't register a horse because their friendly, open and registering is easy, that's not the purpose of a verband. Verband testing, like showing isn't supposted to be a learning center, it's a place to be tested, and evaluated. The goal of a verband is to select quality individuals whose qualities are in line for their paticular book and give an honest evaluation as possible.

sorry getting off my soap box.

risingstarfarm

Jul. 17, 2007, 08:16 PM

I fully agree. My point was that we 100% can't say that absolutely no draft at all is in there. I know that many of the breeds are very old. Europe itself is very old.. someplace somewhere though someone probably used a draft cross or heavier type to beef up a horse for a particular use... to improve bone or improve temperment or something...

This got me thinking. Aren't all modern Thoroughbreds descended from three Arabian stallions? Where did all of the bone, size (and sometimes Roman noses) come from?

So, if you can breed the TB from an Arabian founding gene pool - couldn't you also breed substantial WBs from LIGHTER agricultural horses (which, let me tell you - aren't "light" in the modern sense of the word).

I'm not trying to start an argument - I'm interested in discussing how all of the different types evolved.

tempichange

Jul. 17, 2007, 08:23 PM

This got me thinking. Aren't all modern Thoroughbreds descended from three Arabian stallions? Where did all of the bone, size (and sometimes Roman noses) come from?

So, if you can breed the TB from an Arabian founding gene pool - couldn't you also breed substantial WBs from LIGHTER agricultural horses (which, let me tell you - aren't "light" in the modern sense of the word).

I'm not trying to start an argument - I'm interested in discussing how all of the different types evolved.

The answer to that is not who they bred to, but when did they close their book. The three stallions were cornerstones at, most likely different times, however by Godolphin, the book began to close. They had thoroughbreds (it was an official breed), however, breeders still wanted more, so they probably outcrossed a few more generations with the Godolphin before jockey club made the book officially closed.

pintopiaffe

Jul. 17, 2007, 08:27 PM

That they seemingly are to be more about awards than actual performance and pretty much accept everything from morgans to stock bred quarter horses.

This is just not accurate.

:sigh:

They do RECORD anything presented. But not everything--and in fact, fairly small numbers are approved for BREEDING.

And they are actually almost purely performance oriented. A horse of dubious lineage can move up with performance scores. That's the point. Those who excel are promoted.

I have no vested interest. I have RPSI registered/approved, PtHA, IAHA, NSH, Trakehner etc. I could pre-book the solid orphan filly based on her sire line and breed her RPSI. I just find the misconceptions abound.

People will still believe what they want to, regarless of how many times you present the facts.

La Gringa

Jul. 17, 2007, 08:39 PM

The Trakehner is a European warmblood horse of East Prussian origin, the foundation for which was laid at the main stud farm established in Trakehnen, East Prussia, in 1732. The breed's name is derived from this world-famous farm, and the bloodlines can be traced back to this source. At the beginning, the horse was a stocky strong native animal which needed size and refinement. The really important and decisive development of the breed, therefore, occurred in the early 1800s when top quality English Thoroughbred and Arabian blood began to be introduced in small quantities.

The stockiness, had to come from a heavy breed of some kind. That's my point. For people to just knock anything becaue they "allow" draft blood period is just silly, IMHO.

All WB's are mixed breeds, not pure anything. There could be shetland pony in there for all we know way way way back..

I think working toward a common quality goal in the US, and educating people what good breeding is, is what people should focus the energy on, not just snubbing one registry or another because it's not "German" or "Dutch" or whatever European WB seems to be the "horse of the day".

La Gringa

Jul. 17, 2007, 08:44 PM

This got me thinking. Aren't all modern Thoroughbreds descended from three Arabian stallions? Where did all of the bone, size (and sometimes Roman noses) come from?

So, if you can breed the TB from an Arabian founding gene pool - couldn't you also breed substantial WBs from LIGHTER agricultural horses (which, let me tell you - aren't "light" in the modern sense of the word).

I'm not trying to start an argument - I'm interested in discussing how all of the different types evolved.

My question is what is the foundation for these "lighter agricultural horses" you are speaking of? That is kind of a vague term..

Eventually all horses trace back to the little animal that precludes horses in the jurassic period (absurd I know)...

These light agricultural horses were bred from some horses way back to get the type they wanted for whatever use it was.. it could have been draft, it could have been arab, it could have been a pony.. who knows.

Are the records good enough to know? Probably not that far back.

I don't think the Roman head comes from Arab blood. That I have a hard time believing... maybe more from the Spanish Barb??

risingstarfarm

Jul. 17, 2007, 08:51 PM

[QUOTE=risingstarfarm;2567746]
Please site your sources. The stud wasn't established until 1732 and the breed didn’t remotely resemble the current type until the 1800’s. 700 years old indeed! :rolleyes:

http://www.americantrakehner.com/The%20Breed/profile.htm

I'll be happy to site [sic] my sources - except I'm going on the urban legend that I've always been told in references to Trakehners.

How sad it's not true - I always thought it was such a romantic notion. And you're so right - it's only "more than 400 years" (taken from the ATA site, not cite, LOL) not 700, oops.

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 17, 2007, 08:52 PM

The Oldenburgs have also approved a draft cross mare fairly recently.

tri

Jul. 17, 2007, 09:57 PM

You know, everytime a discussion comes up about the american registries, this thing comes up about draft crosses - as in the whole registry is draft crosses. Well news, draft crosses are few and far between in relation to the number of horses APPROVED for breeding. Please note, it isn't a typo, I posted "APPROVED" for breeding. Not registered, not accepted, not COPs. Read it again. "APPROVED" for breeding. If the Oldenburg Verband had, say 3 or 4 horses with draft blood, would you say the registry is full of draft crosses? No. Would it cease to be credible? Probably not. So, why does a very small percentage of horses with some draft blood in a registry that ACTIVELY discourages (they do) using draft blood send some of you into a tizzy?

Again, I don't and have never had a horse approved AWS. My KWPN mares - branded and everything, oh my!, have also been approved with BWP and Old Verband are now having foals stricly in the AWR registry. So I definately don't fall into the category of "couldn't get them approved anywhere else" and I find that statement a complete cop out for those who can't deal with the facts to fall back on, as in you can't prove your point so you just say, well your horse isn't as good as my horse, BS.

Horsecrazy27

Jul. 17, 2007, 10:29 PM

Horsecrazy27

Jul. 17, 2007, 10:36 PM

I personally believe that people always think back to when AWS started out. The last 10 years has been nothing but an improvement to our USA horses. I have held/observed every inspection here in AZ for 12 years....I can count on 1 hand how many draft horses that were PRESENTED, I only remember one getting his papers. He was a gelding, 1/2 hann, 1/4 draft, 1/4 TB---just a gorgeous creature. I have seen more Freisian (sp), Arabs, TB and WB's than anything. MOSTLY WB--of European pedigree.

I have reg. mine with AWS for many years..... GO USA!! If nobody takes their AMERICAN BORN Horses to be registered American, how are we going to have one of OUR horses represent us in the Olympics? All the credit will continue to go over seas. Do you think that if they imported horses from our Country, they would brand them with an American brand if it was born on their soil???????? NO WAY!!!!!

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 17, 2007, 11:28 PM

At the inspections I hosted, we had 20 to 25 horses/foals to inspect, and usually 2 of those were draft crosses, and most were not accepted. The AWS is a good entry level registry that spends a lot of time educating it's members at the inspections.

tri

Jul. 18, 2007, 12:48 PM

La Gringa

Jul. 18, 2007, 01:05 PM

Once again, it's pure snobbery.

( In English accent) - "My walk on water horse, is IMPORTED from, (nose in the air) Germany." His poop doesn't stink like those "American Warmbloods" as them yankees call them. I only breed to " European" Warmbloods. They are far far SUPERIOR. " :lol:

Sounds like statement a Rolls Royce instead of a horse doesn't it?

That is what this crap is about. Nothing but a "Brand" snobbery. That's it.
If the AWS needs to improve it's standard, then HELP them make better decisions and standards, for petes sake, instead of just bashing. What a thought!

Why not have some pride in what things people could and are doing in THIS country for a change, with out the European logos.

Hillside H Ranch

Jul. 18, 2007, 01:58 PM

"Do you think that if they imported horses from our Country, they would brand them with an American brand if it was born on their soil???????? NO WAY!!!!!"

Exactly. I have been saying this for a long time. It is a marketing thing that they are over here in the first place - as a way of marketing THEIR horses, not american bred horses.

For example, American Quarter Horses are very popular in Germany right now and are being exported over there quite a bit. However, they didn't set up an American Quarter Horse registry. Noooo. They set up the German Quarter Horse Registry and that is the SMART thing to do. Americans have messed up warmblood breeding in this country with the fragmented, no credit accept for euro bred system we have.

Just to clarify this argument a bit, the German Quarter Horse Association is actually an affiliate of AQHA. They are goverend by the same rules and bylaws and the rules for registration and showing are the same rules. The AQHA is the parent organization, so it is not an independent organization with its own rules and regulations.

Monizuki2

Jul. 18, 2007, 02:31 PM

Black Forest

Jul. 18, 2007, 02:45 PM

Do you think that if they imported horses from our Country, they would brand them with an American brand if it was born on their soil???????? NO WAY!!!!!

Yes that is EXACTLY what *they* do (do we HAVE to have these xenophobic posts again and again?"

Funny how over here those who import American horses are so damn PROUD of their american horses, they are called "AMERICAN Quarterhorses" (and all the other breeds coming from the USA that come into Europe from the US.

Quarterhorses, all the gaited horses, PoAs, American Bashkir Curlies etc etc etc

No-one over here would ever dream of wanting to call their german born QHs "German Quarterhorses" - because they are not - they're American Quarterhorses and the owners are proud of the fact.

I r

coriander

Jul. 18, 2007, 03:19 PM

But Black Forest, it's the American way to be xenophobic!! (except of course when "foreign " is hip or cool). :lol:

spacely

Jul. 18, 2007, 03:36 PM

I am the poster child for horse poor, and I need my babies to sell for a decent amount, especially since I am just starting out and don't yet have the reputation for producing good stock yet.

I am sort of in the same boat, so I understand where you are coming from. I will say that if I am looking at ads & American Warmblood is mentioned anywhere (approved, registered, what have you), I don't even bother. I stop looking, pass it by, skip over it no matter how nice it could possibly be. I think that's how a lot buyers feel, or at least the people I have talked to in my area. I don't think that's just a local feeling either.

From a business perspective, I'd be shooting myself in the foot advertising my stock as AWS or AWR registered/approved.

tri

Jul. 18, 2007, 03:37 PM

Of course we are proud. I also don't blame Germans, or dutch or Belgian breeders to be any less proud of what they are breeding. I don't blame them one single bit for coming to the U.S. and setting up registries to further promote THEIR brand, THEIR horses, THEIR stallions, THEIR marelines, etc. When the various officials of those registries realized that americans didn't think they coud, didn't want to, didn't know any better on setting up their own wb breeding programs (sort of like, "you mean the Americans want us europeans to take over their breeding program instead of having control of their own??!!!" blink, blink, open mouth in shock. "Well OK! We will come over and do that!"

It was a grand business strategy to do it. Just curious Black Forest, do you think that when the BWP was first established, they should have called it the Belgian Hanoverian Association since they used imported Hanoverians mostly to create their studbook? Do you think the Belgians are proud of their BELGIAN warmbloods or do you think they should just credit them to the germans since it was founding german warmbloods that made up most of it and where most of their famous stallions came from? Why is America different?

ljshorses

Jul. 18, 2007, 03:42 PM

You know what though? Here's the problem and I bet money I'll get flamed for it...I am a fan of there being an American version, and if I was infinitely wealthy (or even just a bit better off than I am), I would love to BE one of those people who pioneer this new registry with just fantastic horses. Fact of the matter is, I am not, in fact I am the poster child for horse poor, and I need my babies to sell for a decent amount, especially since I am just starting out and don't yet have the reputation for producing good stock yet. In the little bit of time I've run through ads on horses that are from this registry, they just don't even advertise for nearly as much, and while I don't personally know this (perhaps someone could chime in) if I had to guess, I'll bet those owners have those babies a lot longer so their costs and space are used up a lot more. I wish it was different, but that's the reality.

Am I part of the problem? You betcha. But I don't see how I financially can do different. That may change one day but I don't see it happening soon.

Boy do I agree with this statement!!! I don't even like using frozen from outside the U.S. but hey those babies usually sell in-utero. What's my incentive to belong to an American registry? I tried AWR and they were just plain rude and didn't seem to be consistent in what was deemed "good" conformation and what was deemed "poor" conformation. I do agree there are very nice horses in AWS and AWR but from a business standpoint, those registries are just not for me. AWS does seem to try and educate their members and those who attend inspections (have been to both AWS and AWR) and AWS treats their members much better, they are much more supportive and friendlier and AWS does have a wonderful Point honoring system for those competeing AWS horses (actually have cash awards)...but neither add much value to resulting offspring from stallions and mares in their registry. Such a shame, would love to see an organization here supporting the American Sporthorse breeder and competitor.

Hillside H Ranch

Jul. 18, 2007, 04:04 PM

Boy do I agree with this statement!!! I don't even like using frozen from outside the U.S. but hey those babies usually sell in-utero. What's my incentive to belong to an American registry? I tried AWR and they were just plain rude and didn't seem to be consistent in what was deemed "good" conformation and what was deemed "poor" conformation. I do agree there are very nice horses in AWS and AWR but from a business standpoint, those registries are just not for me. AWS does seem to try and educate their members and those who attend inspections (have been to both AWS and AWR) and AWS treats their members much better, they are much more supportive and friendlier and AWS does have a wonderful Point honoring system for those competeing AWS horses (actually have cash awards)...but neither add much value to resulting offspring from stallions and mares in their registry. Such a shame, would love to see an organization here supporting the American Sporthorse breeder and competitor.

And unfortunately I find this to be true, as well. Some major overhaul needs to be done with the American registries. Maybe some sort of PR campaign? I know several breeders in my area who have AWS/AWR horses and they can't sell them. I also agree that it seems like the asking price for these horses is lower, across the board than other registries (this is from a very informal survey of on-line sales sites). I know when I have spoken to people who have bought from me in the past about the American registries that there is a very negative perception. So even though I would like to support an American registry, I have no incentive; the monetary value of the offspring (in general) just isn't there.

Monizuki2

Jul. 18, 2007, 04:38 PM

I am sort of in the same boat, so I understand where you are coming from. I will say that if I am looking at ads & American Warmblood is mentioned anywhere (approved, registered, what have you), I don't even bother. I stop looking, pass it by, skip over it no matter how nice it could possibly be. I think that's how a lot buyers feel, or at least the people I have talked to in my area. I don't think that's just a local feeling either.

From a business perspective, I'd be shooting myself in the foot advertising my stock as AWS or AWR registered/approved.

Yep. I hear you there.

tri

Jul. 18, 2007, 05:03 PM

Black Forest

Jul. 18, 2007, 05:17 PM

This whole thing gets tiring after round 475 .....

I don't see the problem with American Hannoverians or American Holsteiners etc etc - I really REALLY fail to see why that causes such venom from some - it is sometimes made to sound like it's some kind of foreign invasion where people have guns put against their heads to breed them ....

As far as I can see it rally doesn't matter at all - a good horse bred in America is an american bred horse....

And to be honest until the American Warmblood bodies get their house in order it is not surprising that people, for the moment, stick with the tried and trusted systems. Do I think it should happen? YES OF COURSE it should - and eventually there WILL be an American Warmblood that will be a tried and trusted concept.

But that needs not be to the exclusion of the existing breeds - if you go to Denmark or Sweden etc etc - you find Swedish / Danish WBs as well as Swedish / Danish Oldenburger or Trakehner etc.

Why on earth do these discussions always have to slip into "them" and "us" with hair-raising propaganda. It's really sad to see.

Hillside H Ranch

Jul. 18, 2007, 05:17 PM

The PR campaign starts with the breeders. You guys are right, you are the problem. As long as you keep saying it (no matter that what you are saying isn't true) and you guys say it to everyone over and over and over again, you make people believe it is true.

I have been at this long enough to remember the absolute crap mares presented to the AHS and the resulting crap foals. Also, the same with the BWP - I was there when it started here in the U.S not so long ago really. I remember how people who actually rode and competed looked at those horses and cringed and said they were worthless. But the breeders kept on and now look.

You guys are making your own bed and you will lie in it while the world goes to europe to buy horses. Not to mention, american bred horses that might find their way into the big int'l rings will be called european and not american - that has already happened.

Okay, I usually try to stay out of these conversations, but seriously...
I have never bad-mouthed AWS or AWR, or horses that are registered in those registries. The negative comments I have heard came from me asking my BUYERS (not breeders) if they would be interested in buying horses registered AWS/AWR. The resounding consensus was "NO". I WANT to support an American registry, but I will not do so at great expense to my breeding program (both in reputation and monetarily).
And, FWIW the majority of world already goes to Europe to by their horses. I don't think me registering my horses as "American Warmbloods" is going to change that. Anyway, the registries I'm currently using suit me fine and I have had no trouble selling the horses I'm producing.
I do think there are some very nice horses registered in both the aforementioned registries. But I think the average buyer's perception of the registry is a negative one and they do associate those registries with draft-crosses, etc. Even though I know that is an inaccurate belief, it is hard to convince the buyer of that; they just think you want to persuade them into buying a horse no matter what.

Stacie

Jul. 18, 2007, 05:26 PM

PineTreeFarm

Jul. 18, 2007, 05:39 PM

Okay, I usually try to stay out of these conversations, but seriously...
The negative comments I have heard came from me asking my BUYERS (not breeders) if they would be interested in buying horses registered AWS/AWR. The resounding consensus was "NO". I WANT to support an American registry, but I will not do so at great expense to my breeding program (both in reputation and monetarily).
And, FWIW the majority of world already goes to Europe to by their horses. But I think the average buyer's perception of the registry is a negative one and they do associate those registries with draft-crosses, etc. Even though I know that is an inaccurate belief, it is hard to convince the buyer of that; they just think you want to persuade them into buying a horse no matter what.

Hmm.. These dicussions have been going on for a long time. I've asked several H/J trainers about AWS and AWR. You know what, 95% of the trainers answered 'what's an AWR/AWS?'. Many, but not all of the sales in H/J revolve around a trainer or an agent locating an appropriate horse for a client. There really isn't a sense of the registry of the horse in question having any importance. Instead, the ability of the horse to do the job is the main criteria. Sure, they buy in Europe as they are satisfied with what the European agent has found for them or they are insterested in certain bloodlines. When that happens it isn't a question of selecting a bloodline in a specific registry, it's past success with a particular stallion's offspring regardless of registry.
If you ask a H/J buyer they are interested in what the horse in question can do now, or in the near future. I've never seen a buyer turn down a horse because of the registry. I've asked exhibitors the same question about AWS/AWR. Little name recognition but registry was not a deal breaker for a performance horse.
Now if you are defining your client base as maybe other breeders buying a filly/mare that will eventually be used in their breeding program than I can see your point. I'm sure there is registry bias in those cases regardless if that's right or wrong.

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 18, 2007, 06:04 PM

I don't see the problem with American Hannoverians or American Holsteiners etc etc - I really REALLY fail to see why that causes such venom from some - it is sometimes made to sound like it's some kind of foreign invasion where people have guns put against their heads to breed them ....

As far as I can see it rally doesn't matter at all - a good horse bred in America is an american bred horse....

The problem come in because MOST of our excellent breeders belong/support the American office of the European Regisrty. They think they are all taken care of, and no need to support an American organization.

Without these numbers, we will never have an organization to work for what AMERICANS need - THE DATABASE. Quality Auctions and sales. Financial incentives for our top riders to "buy American". Training and sales centers so buyers cn see many prospects at once. Fair 100 Day testing. HONEST direction to approve stallions to cross with our American mare base.

We are too fractured, and can't get the ORGANIZED support. No, I don't feel the AWR or AWS will get this job done, but we DO need an organization that can. An organization that breeders have a voice in. We need an organization to do for US breeders what the AQHA does for the QH breeders.

It truly scares me the direction the European Warmbloods are going. WHY are we only going to have a future of Sandrohallrubinmeyers? The gene pool is getting WAY to close. WHY are thousands of mares bred to unproven w/t/c stallions?

Will the tail wag the dog? Are we breeding horses that will change what we LOOK for in dressage? It seems so. We get that cranked nose on the chest deep schooling to stop the spooking, and bolting. Is that the direction we WANT to go? Are we creating a horse that REQUIRES different training to make them rideable?

ljshorses

Jul. 18, 2007, 06:14 PM

Hmm.. These dicussions have been going on for a long time. I've asked several H/J trainers about AWS and AWR. You know what, 95% of the trainers answered 'what's an AWR/AWS?'. Many, but not all of the sales in H/J revolve around a trainer or an agent locating an appropriate horse for a client. There really isn't a sense of the registry of the horse in question having any importance. Instead, the ability of the horse to do the job is the main criteria. Sure, they buy in Europe as they are satisfied with what the European agent has found for them or they are insterested in certain bloodlines. When that happens it isn't a question of selecting a bloodline in a specific registry, it's past success with a particular stallion's offspring regardless of registry.
If you ask a H/J buyer they are interested in what the horse in question can do now, or in the near future. I've never seen a buyer turn down a horse because of the registry. I've asked exhibitors the same question about AWS/AWR. Little name recognition but registry was not a deal breaker for a performance horse.
Now if you are defining your client base as maybe other breeders buying a filly/mare that will eventually be used in their breeding program than I can see your point. I'm sure there is registry bias in those cases regardless if that's right or wrong.

Well your statement may be so in the Hunter/Jumper world but not so for the Dressage world. I sell babies that are either hunter/jumper or dressage bred (some few can do either) and the ones that are more dressage bred tend to be able to sell easier and quicker as young stock but only if registered with AHS, Dutch, RPSI, Oldenburg etc... NOT AWS/AWR. For the ones that are Hunter bred, if they sell as weanlings or even yearlings, it's because they are out of and or by a well known Hunter stallion or mare or the stallion is known for producing winners in the Hunter ring. I noticed recently that prospective hunter/jumper buyers ask about the registry and inspection scores etc... and I attribute that to how many of the warmblood registries now have hunter divisions which they use to not have...so again from my perspective the registry matters some and the AWS/AWR ones just don't get as much interest so they are no longer available here for sale as young stock.

pintopiaffe

Jul. 18, 2007, 06:37 PM

Just remember too, this CotH Board is NOT a fair representation of the horse world.

I would say 80% on the sporthorse breeding forum are Elite breeders. Importing frozen semen, using the latest/greatest/oldest(some dead!)/winningest...

That's wonderful and it's very cool to rub virtual shoulders alongside them, but they are NOT representative of the majority of US Breeders or Buyers. They certainly are where you'd go for a top notch WB.

But it's just not a true picture.

So the disdain you see here is NOT the rule. Whether it's AWS or AWR seems to really depend quite a bit on location. Both are regarded quite well around here, where the majority of horse buyers are looking for sane, sound amatuer mounts who are kind enough and athletic enough to do well at a Regional level. Pony Clubbers looking for rating mounts. That type of thing. An *expensive* horse up here, registered WHATEVER is $8,500. Can't remember meeting a single five digit horse yet. Well, met a couple who started out that way, were ruined and were rescued...

So please, those reading this thread who perhaps are too timid to comment, take the entire perspective with a grain of salt. :yes:

Editing to add: Only the very rich, fancy schmancy folks who want to impress people at their 'sumemr cottages' even know what the CotH MAGAZINE is. Much of it is just not relevant. ;)

tri

Jul. 18, 2007, 06:52 PM

Well said Fairview and pintopiaffe.

"Well your statement may be so in the Hunter/Jumper world but not so for the Dressage world."

And the dressage world and those buying a "dressage" baby prospect represent what? What fraction of what percent compared to those who buy hunter prospects in THIS country? Really, now, come on. You have got to know that the numbers of people riding dressage are peanuts compared to the hunter/jumper industry!

"I have never bad-mouthed AWS or AWR, or horses that are registered in those registries. The negative comments I have heard came from me asking my BUYERS (not breeders) if they would be interested in buying horses registered AWS/AWR."

And where do those "BUYERS' pick up the negativity? From the breeders who are supporting the euro registries, thats who. Most of the buyers have never even BEEN to an AWS or AWR .... or to a KWPN, Oldna, Old verband, BWP or any other inspection for that matter. They are hearing it from other breeders and it should stop. Especially since it isn't true.

DownYonder

Jul. 18, 2007, 07:06 PM

Note though, that unlike some registries, you cannot have the mar and foal inspected at the same time. You must be a member when the mare is bred, and she must have been inspected before she was bred. At least that is how I read the regs. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Uh, no. Oldenburg inspects mare/foal combinations EVERY YEAR. They even have a ring (class) called "Mares with Foals." And, unless they have recently changed things, you don't have to be a member when the mare is bred. You DO have to be a member the year the mare is inspected and you have to be a member the year the foal is inspected - many people join each year right there at the inspection site.

Horsecrazy27

Jul. 18, 2007, 07:12 PM

[QUOTE=Black Forest;2569617]Yes that is EXACTLY what *they* do (do we HAVE to have these xenophobic posts again and again?"

Funny how over here those who import American horses are so damn PROUD of their american horses, they are called "AMERICAN Quarterhorses" (and all the other breeds coming from the USA that come into Europe from the US.

Quarterhorses, all the gaited horses, PoAs, American Bashkir Curlies etc etc etc

No-one over here would ever dream of wanting to call their german born QHs "German Quarterhorses" - because they are not - they're American Quarterhorses and the owners are proud of the fact.

I r[/QUOT

I say them/us because it it is the shortest version of USA and European horse lovers/Countrys. GEEZ. SO funny how silly comments get on here.

Okay, I'll clairify more. So, if Mr. Sweet well know person of German decent who happens to live in Hannover Germany, see's a horse he likes , say a stallion who is Reg. American WB and a mare, in the North Dakota region of the United States of America and decides to import those horses to his home. He breeds that stallion to that mare, do you think he will send his money to the American registry to have his foals inspected/reg? OR, will he present both to one of his home land reg. to reg. the foals?

wlrottge

Jul. 18, 2007, 07:12 PM

But I think the average buyer's perception of the registry is a negative one and they do associate those registries with draft-crosses, etc. Even though I know that is an inaccurate belief, it is hard to convince the buyer of that; they just think you want to persuade them into buying a horse no matter what.

YES!!!

But... from someone who is a buyer and at this time, not a breeder, I think they cause their own problems. A quick glance down the list of approved stallions makes the case quite quickly I think..... I think some of those horses belong there.... many don't. Infer what you will, but I think more of the stallions should be like Oswald and less like... well... no names.

I can however find a greater percentage of stallions I really like on the AT site compared to AWR/S

DownYonder

Jul. 18, 2007, 07:19 PM

The problem come in because MOST of our excellent breeders belong/support the American office of the European Regisrty. They think they are all taken care of, and no need to support an American organization.

Without these numbers, we will never have an organization to work for what AMERICANS need - THE DATABASE. Quality Auctions and sales. Financial incentives for our top riders to "buy American". Training and sales centers so buyers cn see many prospects at once. Fair 100 Day testing. HONEST direction to approve stallions to cross with our American mare base.

We are too fractured, and can't get the ORGANIZED support. No, I don't feel the AWR or AWS will get this job done, but we DO need an organization that can. An organization that breeders have a voice in. We need an organization to do for US breeders what the AQHA does for the QH breeders.

And when that organization appears, I will take a look at it. Until then, I will stick with other organizations that meet my needs.

It truly scares me the direction the European Warmbloods are going. WHY are we only going to have a future of Sandrohallrubinmeyers? The gene pool is getting WAY to close. WHY are thousands of mares bred to unproven w/t/c stallions?

Agree that the gene pool is getting too closed. There are people in Europe who are just as concerned, and believe me, they are desperately looking for "the next big thing".

Will the tail wag the dog? Are we breeding horses that will change what we LOOK for in dressage? It seems so. We get that cranked nose on the chest deep schooling to stop the spooking, and bolting. Is that the direction we WANT to go? Are we creating a horse that REQUIRES different training to make them rideable?

And I certainly share your concerns here. Unfortunately, most serious breeders want to be able to say that they bred an Olympic horse. And if a "cranked nose on the chest deep schooling" horse is what gets rewarded at the big international shows, then that is what the top riders look for, and what many breeders are going to breed for. The tail may indeed be wagging the dog in some cases.

tri

Jul. 18, 2007, 10:24 PM

I can take a quick look down any stallion roster of any wb registry and find most of them I don't like, wouldn't breed to, wonder why they were approved, etc for my particular program of breeding jumpers. That is why I bailed out of the KWPN-na - you almost have to have a dressage horse to get approved here in the U.S....and their refusal to approve a stallion of the caibre of VIP until he was too old to breed. I wasn't alone. Many jumper breeders bailed after that fiasco. The BWP is full of horses who can jump but many aren't very pretty/don't move particularly well, same with the Selle Francias. That is why you HAVE a breeding program and research what stallion should go with what mare for whatever outcome you are looking for.

If you can't filter through one registry's stallion roster because there are some that you don't like, I feel very strongly that you shouldn't be breeding horses. What are you afraid of, the ones that you don't like are going to somehow jump into your semen tank? No one is holding a gun to your head and telling you that because it is on the roster, you have to use him on your mares, for pete's sake. Many of the stallions that are approved AWS and AWR are also approved with the KWPN, Oldna, Old Verband,BWP, RPSI and most others too! Did the stallions all of a sudden lose quality when a different registry's paperwork was filed. This is silly and that is a silly statement!

wlrottge

Jul. 19, 2007, 12:58 AM

I think you misread what I said. Some belong there, some don't. I can understand horses that will obviously produce offspring that will excel in dressage, show jumping or eventing, but... there are several on that page that are not of those persuasions. I can go look at any registry's list and see horses I like and ones I don't, but in most cases I can see why they were approved. In this case I was not talking about my personal preferences/breeding goals, but horses that don't look like they would add any value to the registry or help move it closer to it's goal.

tri

Jul. 19, 2007, 08:54 AM

ljshorses

Jul. 20, 2007, 11:54 AM

Maybe it would be helpful if you gave an example of which stallion you were talking about. Then at least, we would have an accurate discussion instead of urban myth, gossip and lies. Also, are you sure you aren't looking at a stallion that is used for the pony breeding?

I don't think it would be the "right" thing to do!!! Public stallion bashing just is not a good idea. I think if anyone wants to know who they are it is pretty easy to just pull up the website and look on your own. I agree wholeheartedly what wlrottge said but it would be distasteful to do what you ask tri.

wlrottge

Jul. 20, 2007, 12:25 PM

I don't think it would be the "right" thing to do!!!... t would be distasteful to do what you ask tri.

I agree, so I sent tri a reply via PM yesterday after that post.

siegi b.

Jul. 20, 2007, 12:27 PM

Tri - you never cease to amaze me with your "expertise" in all matters European warmbloods! :-) You speak with such authority that maybe some folks are fooled by it. However, my guess is that the vast majority of readers knows that your diatribes are based on 20-year old information that you choose to regurgitate at will.

One of the main reasons I would not consider the AWS/AWR is because whenever somebody makes the slightest little inquiry regarding their registry procedures, etc. they are met by fanatics such as Tri who go out of their way to scare people away. You don't make friends and influence people by bad-mouthing what they're doing. You really don't.....

Mudpie

Jul. 20, 2007, 02:01 PM

Can I ask another question related to my origional post? I don't want to start another thread, I didn't realize how out of hand this post would get :winkgrin:

I just want to clarify some things. My mare is not going to Oldenburg this year. I just got her, shes not in the condition and nees more riding time on her first.

IF I were to breed her to an Oldenburg stallion this year, is the foal eligible for Oldenburg? Or does the mare have to be inspected first before she can be bred?

If I got her inspected by AWS this year, and still bred her to an Oldenburg stallion, then I would be able to register the foal with AWS, correct?
What I am saying is, atleast I can still reg. the foal AWS more for a pedigree record on paper. I am new to the warmblood side of things and am learning as I go. The first foal I may keep, or I may sell.

Remember, the AWS inspection is mostly for MY benefit.
This is my first inspection, and it is very very close to my farm, so it sounded fun and educational. I am ONLY looking for advice on this matter, I don't care what anyone says about it, so please no more posts on how crappy the registries are. The title was "Another AWS question" b/c I have seen the threads, and they are all debates. I can do a search and all the AWS threads will be the same, but I wanted to hear some specifics on the registries.

I did ask if it would be a waste of my time, but it won't decrease my mares value at all, and I will be learning something, so how could that be a waste? If I don't go there I'll probably just stay at home and clean stalls or do something boring. I am looking for a response more from the AWS/AWR people who are members.
Thanks for everyones time! I have learned some from reading all of your posts.

sporthorsefilly

Jul. 20, 2007, 02:14 PM

Since a TB can only be recorded with the AWS, you may as well do it. You have to join AWS ($80) plus pay for recording fee ($125) and inspection fee ($60) you may have to DNA test also. Yes, you could register the foal with the AWS. That is the simple answer.

Personally, If I were breeding my TB mare to an approved for breeding Oldenburg (GOV or ISR/OldNA) stallion, then I would present the TB mare to that registry for inspection along with her foal. Her foal would be an Oldenburg. The foal would still be eligible for AWS recording, but its foal papers would be Oldenburg. What that would mean is that the foal could compete in both the Oldenburg class and the AWS class (if it were also recorded with AWS).

That is what I would do.

Mudpie

Jul. 20, 2007, 02:18 PM

Thank you Sport, for the simple, short and sweet answer. That was what I was looking for :) The mare will NOT be bred to an oldenburg this year, I do want to get her approved next year, BUT, does she have to be approved before she gets bred? Or can she go the inspection already bred and get approved and then register her foal (I'm talking a 2009 foal)?

spacely

Jul. 20, 2007, 02:20 PM

She does not have to be bred before inspection (Oldenburg). She can go with the foal by her side in 2009.

Mudpie

Jul. 20, 2007, 02:20 PM

Sorry, just re-read your post. You said present mare and foal to oldenburg, does the mare have to do a riding/free jumping test? With the foal at her side then?

Texarkana

Jul. 20, 2007, 02:26 PM

Sorry, just re-read your post. You said present mare and foal to oldenburg, does the mare have to do a riding/free jumping test? With the foal at her side then?

Nope, the mare performance test is only for elite status. You just present her on the triangle, as you would with AWS.

Mudpie

Jul. 20, 2007, 02:30 PM

ohhh ok thanks for all the replies. I'm done with my questions now. Thanks!

tri

Jul. 20, 2007, 06:51 PM

Troll, I mean Siegi, you never cease to amaze me on how much and why you participate in threads regarding the american registries when you hate them so much, have your agenda agaisnt them and claim to know nothing about them. You say you have no interest in them yet you constantly involve yourself in threads about them with your constant registry bashing.

tri

Jul. 20, 2007, 06:55 PM

ljshorses, I don't want any stallion bashing either but there have been countless threads about the approvals of various stallions - for example, look at the huge thread regarding Popeye K when he was going through the KWPN approvals. Why can't we have an open discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of a particular stallion and what registries, performance & testings make them worthwhile or not?

I think that is much better than saying "all the stallions of a particular registry are no good" - that is just bashing them all, isn't it? Especially since the majority of the stallions in the registry are also registered/approved with many of the european wb registries as well.

tempichange

Jul. 20, 2007, 07:37 PM

I think that is much better than saying "all the stallions of a particular registry are no good" - that is just bashing them all, isn't it? Especially since the majority of the stallions in the registry are also registered/approved with many of the european wb registries as well.

I don't think people are saying that, I think that they're saying is that a number of the stallions they admit do not co-inside with their breeding goals, the morgans/morabs, the akhal tekes, the draft or draft crosses. The other thing I noted is that many of the approved stallions are also approved prior to the AWS with their perspective verbands, it's as if that paticular inspection was an afterthought.

But I still think it's rather telling of a verband if their registration isn't reciprocated/reciprocating with the others. In other words, you see multi-verband approved mares and stallions, but if its the other way around it's usually a one-way street.

OakesBrae

Jul. 21, 2007, 10:50 AM

What's really funny about that to me is that the european wbs DID use stock very similar to that to create them - so by approving those types of horses for breeding (akal tekes, morgans, arabs, drafts and draft crosses) they are simply starting with stock here in the US. I don't understand WHY folks can't get that. There's a thread somewhere in here where I compare horses like Gambo who feature prominantly in many wb lines. YOU may not feel the need to "reinvent the wheel", but taking a european warmblood and breeding it here does not make it uniquely American. There are some of us as well that think that some of the euro registries are off track from the original goals and have created horses that are perhaps great in olympic sport, but not suitable for anyone else (and if anyone believes the percentage of olympic level riders vs. all the rest of us is slanted towards the olympic level riders I'm very sorry for you).

Having a method of recording these horses so that their pedigrees are not lost, and so that successful breedings can be repeated/learned from is NOT a bad thing.

Just my .02.

I support the AWS and it does not cause me to look "down" on the horse. Sounds like it's good experience for your mare and if it's only one of several registries that you get her approved for breeding with, then it just expands the market for your foals.

ljshorses

Jul. 21, 2007, 11:34 AM

pintopiaffe

Jul. 21, 2007, 02:12 PM

VERY well said Oaks Brae.

I would just add we are doing almost exactly what they started with too, using regional types and crossing them to improve upon the good and bring it more toward the 'ideal' of sporthorse build/movement... i.e. Morgan, APHA, QH, TB, ASB etc.

Originally the German Verbands were all about Regions and regional types.

Black Forest

Jul. 21, 2007, 03:11 PM

Without these numbers, we will never have an organization to work for what AMERICANS need - THE DATABASE. Quality Auctions and sales. Financial incentives for our top riders to "buy American". Training and sales centers so buyers cn see many prospects at once. Fair 100 Day testing. HONEST direction to approve stallions to cross with our American mare base.

We are too fractured, and can't get the ORGANIZED support. No, I don't feel the AWR or AWS will get this job done, but we DO need an organization that can. An organization that breeders have a voice in.

Shrug - basically you need an American Horse Association - that stands over the whole horse-world pulling together breeding - competing - welfare - the lot - for ALL breeds and all disciplines.....

Like the Germany FN?

That has precious little to do with the individual breed societies.

tri

Jul. 23, 2007, 10:25 AM

I think it has everything to do with individual registries.

Black Forest, again, do you think the BWP should not have ever been organized and it should have been called the Belgian Hanoverian Association because they used mostly imported Hanoverian stallions to start the registry?

All of your precious german registries used outside blood, brought it in, approved it under their own name and registered the resulting foals as uniquely theirs. Why is it so bad for Americans to want to do the same thing? Also, some of the most famous refining blood that the germans are using came from AMERICAN TB blood. Heck, there is so much TB blood going into warmbloods these days, under your logic, the registries should be renamed the American Thoroughbred Oldenburg Verband.

siegi b.

Jul. 23, 2007, 04:13 PM

... thar she blows again... :-)

spacely

Jul. 23, 2007, 04:18 PM

...cleanup on aisle 9....

Horsecrazy27

Jul. 23, 2007, 04:34 PM

tri

Jul. 23, 2007, 04:39 PM

Oops! Looks like there are a couple of trolls!

Don't feed the trolls!

Tempichange, I think the reciprocating has more to do with the amount of time a registry has been in place. The Zangersheide stud is a great example. Do you think that the Z Stud does not breed quality horses or approve quality stallions?

If Americans did what Fairview posted - created a top quality new registry with an elected board (great idea, btw) and all the american warmblood breeders fully supported it, that registry would not get reciprocating approvals from the euro registries either. Not until the registry built up enough & put enough horses out there competing at the higher levels. Under your criteria, we would never have an American breeding registry that you would support because breeders who think like you wouldn't support it until it was established and it can't get established until breeders support it.

Black Forest

Jul. 23, 2007, 05:41 PM

Black Forest...........

All of your precious german registries ..............

Tri quit accusing me of having a german bias, will you? It fudges the issues.

If I had a german bias why would I own and compete a polish stallion rather than a german one?

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 23, 2007, 06:02 PM

Shrug - basically you need an American Horse Association - that stands over the whole horse-world pulling together breeding - competing - welfare - the lot - for ALL breeds and all disciplines.....

Like the Germany FN?

That has precious little to do with the individual breed societies.

That will never work in the USA. The horses bred in this country are probably 90%, 95%? stock type, saddle seat, etc, etc. The TEENY TINY amount of horses bred for Dressage, Hunter/Jumper, Evening, Driving would always be put in a back burner. In the US, the breed registries DO supply the support - like the AQHA, AHA, Walking Horses, Saddlebreds, Welsh Ponies, Morgans, etc. That is a VERY good thing, because the AQHA money goes directly to support Quarter horse breeding and showing, AHA money goes directly to support Arabian ... etc.

Doesn't the Hanoverian Verband support Hanoverians with elite austions, buying tours, etc.? The Oldenburgs, do they have elite auctions, etc? They have worked for brand recognition, have they not? Doesn't that support their breeders? Or are the Hanoverian Auctions, stallion shows, etc all done by the German Federation, not the Registries?

OakesBrae

Jul. 23, 2007, 07:19 PM

"While the warmbloods of France, Germany, Sweden, Poland, Hungary and other European countries have produced a number of good individuals, their pedigrees are riddled with recent Thoroughbred (http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/throbred/index.htm), Arabian (http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/arabian/) and other outcrosses. Registration in their studbooks carries with it no guarantee or even probability that their offspring will inherit their excellence with any consistency."
emphasis mine - from www.ansi.okstate.edu/.../clevelandbay/index.htm (http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/.../clevelandbay/index.htm)

*snort* I must admit this does make me laugh most heartily. This is what I keep hearing is "wrong" about the AWS, AWR and anyone else that allows le sang impur into their registry.

tri

Jul. 23, 2007, 08:20 PM

Oaksbrae, you mean like the trotter blood in Galoubet? You mean like the QH blooded dam of the approved BWP stallion, Victory Gallop?

You know, it would be a very good thread to start: how much percentage TB blood is in your approved/reg. warmblood? I bet it would be eye opening.

My imported Keur KWPN mare was well more than 60% TB and we just put her to sleep this past spring at age 29 so that breeding was done in Holland over 29 years ago. HER dam back in Holland was a keur preferent prestatie mare was exactly 60% TB and is also the mother of an approved KWPN stallion....that stallion would also have to be well over 60% TB. Since then there has been even more TB blood added.

coriander

Jul. 23, 2007, 09:17 PM

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person who recognizes that the TB blood added to the European registries was done carefully, with a specific goal in mind in terms of what they were breeding to get. In fact, I have a pretty sizable amount of respect for the quality of TB sires used in Europe, in terms of the ability to supply athleticism and stamina, along with perhaps a bit of lightness and "blood."

My point being that the sires were chosen with a breeding goal in mind, whether TB, Arabian, AA or other. The same cannot be said if you're just adding TBs, QHs, Morgans, etc to your book to add them, because they're "American." That's really rather absurd, imho. It's not at all what was going on when the TBs were used, historically, or recently, in Europe. I'm not sure the same can be said for many warmblood breeders here,. if only because the same kinds of TBs are getting harder to find, as the commercial TB market requires the "ultralight," as I call them - weedy, downhill sprinters. But that's what is selling, so that's what's getting bred in the TB world. Not my idea of the best cross into warmbloods. The older more Eurpoean TBs can be found, but you've got to do your pedigree research first, and then find those mares bred that way.

So I don't think you can fairly compare adding blood to the European stock to AWS/AWR here. In Europe, there was a well considered plan. Right now, here, there's just a registry for horses called American. Not remotely the same thing.

I'll get the popcorn started, if someone else wnats to pick up the sodas...

OakesBrae

Jul. 23, 2007, 09:22 PM

Actually coriander, you'll find that is not the case. There is a type, and a standard that must be met for a horse to be approved AWS. Talk to Fairview. :) I don't think anyone is approving of breeding a horse willy nilly! Good lord no! But to think that people who are breeding for AWS are doing so is a misnomer.

And if you'll take a look at the statement, it's not just TB that was added...in fact, another word for carriage horse is indeed...cart horse. ;-)

OakesBrae

Jul. 23, 2007, 09:32 PM

Oh and for the record, I really am only poking at you with a stick...but...
http://inlinethumb16.webshots.com/5903/2888245300066388454S600x600Q85.jpg
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2453796490066388454HWHIMU?vhost=good-times
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2901617230066388454RRkDBd?vhost=good-times

Surely you recognize Gambo...
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/gambo

And Ideaal...
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&h=IDEAAL2&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=

And Orianus...
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/orianus

risingstarfarm

Jul. 23, 2007, 09:49 PM

...in fact, another word for carriage horse is indeed...cart horse. ;-)

Really? I thought there was an enormous difference between horses that were used to plow the fields or pull carts and horses that were used for carriage driving (curricles, landaus, phaetons, and even the gig). I can't imagine that you could compare a cart horse with a carriage horse, even 300 years ago.

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 23, 2007, 09:50 PM

Unfortunately, someone messed up the link for Gambo's photo. Guess that was a bit too much reality for someone. Oakesbrae, do you have the original saved?

Gambo was definitely the type the Oldenburgs were looking to breed. He was a carriage horse born in 1927. He had 67 approved sons. Definitely the direction they wanted to go.

OakesBrae

Jul. 23, 2007, 10:00 PM

In my links the horse on the right is Gambo :)

Really? I thought there was an enormous difference between horses that were used to plow the fields or pull carts and horses that were used for carriage driving (curricles, landaus, phaetons, and even the gig). I can't imagine that you could compare a cart horse with a carriage horse, even 300 years ago.

Risingstar, go poke around some pedigree sites and go back far enough, even just to the 60s, to get some choice heavy horses that I'm pretty sure I wouldn't register with ANY registry...that are in such lauded horses as Sir Donnerhall, Nimmerdor and others.

This beauty is in Sir Donnerhall's line (and I'm sure she was a lovely mare)http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/valine+z

Again, I'm not stating that a draft cross born today is the very same thing as a warmblood bred many times over HOWEVER, if you look at the pedigrees you'll find all types - not just TB, but groningen (which were heavy horses), arab...all sorts of things went into the mixture to create the "modern" warmblood.

What I'm saying is, in order to create those horses they had to allow those breedings in - they had to allow the progeny of those crosses to become eventually recorded in the books all with a goal in mind. Now, is the AWS in it's infancy? Sure! But everyone has to start somewhere :)

I'd like to start a heavy hunter registry - I would rather see type bred for than strictly bloodlines. Of course, I say that but I can't possibly see myself having enough time to do so :)

OakesBrae

Jul. 23, 2007, 10:04 PM

Ah HA! I found my original Gambo copy :)

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2930051460066388454qxoOgN?vhost=good-times

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 23, 2007, 10:08 PM

THANKS! I have it saved now.

risingstarfarm

Jul. 23, 2007, 10:10 PM

The BWP registry was started in 1955 and the registry maintains a studbook (with pics, etc.) of the approved stallions from the inception. The photos are quite informative - there are pictures of approved stallions wearing traces. As well, pictures of Lugano van la Roche (sire of Darco) depict a horse that we wouldn't consider modern at all by today's standards. However, I still contend that the horses were NOT comparable to HEAVY draft horses. They are considered light agricultural horses and while they may have big heads - they don't share a lot of drafty characteristics (they aren't very tall or heavy, they have well developed hind ends).

Look at the first pic of Lugano. He is easy to dismiss as a "cart horse" however, look at the second picture - you get an entirely different perspective and one that underscores my point. These horses were not draft at all.

coriander

Jul. 23, 2007, 10:11 PM

Of course Valine Z was lovely, and I'd love to have a barn full of horses from her son Ramiro, as close in as I can get. But my point was that there was a plan to get horses like Ramiro - and quite a successful one imho, and I've yet to figure out an AWS plan. If that's a hole in my education, I'll need to fix it.

But to compare the two programs of European warmblood breeding in the 20th century and AWS/AWR now just isn't quite a fair comparison of like to like. I do recognize that there was more besides TB blood added, but my point was that it was all added with a goal...

OakesBrae

Jul. 23, 2007, 10:14 PM

Didja lookat Gambo? Who had a less well developed hind end than any of the comparisons?

He still looks pretty drafty to me. The thing is, there are light drafts and heavy drafts today, just as there were then. Some very much riding type with big well developed butts :) I will say that some of the registries have more heavy type than others. I find that the westphalians seem to have a HUGE thoroughbred percentage and less "colder blooded" horse, while the KWPN is just RIPE with big thick boys.

Don't think it's an insult. If I wanted a TB, I'd buy one ;-)

OakesBrae

Jul. 23, 2007, 10:17 PM

Fairview has had horses inspected by AWS - they were quite rigorous - even more so than RPSI, I believe?

Perhaps she can also clarify what criteria were used. In order to inspect and score, they do have criteria.

While a goal may not be apparent to YOU, that doesn't mean it isn't apparent to others. Or isn't in the design. Always a good idea to ask first.

OakesBrae

Jul. 23, 2007, 10:20 PM

Of course Valine Z was lovely,

Really? I'm not sure I would have bred Valine Z (though again, I'm sure she was a lovely horse). In fact, I'm pretty sure if I had posted her confo pic and said "evaluate this horse as a broodmare" I would have been jumped all over on here with the assumption that she was some PMU reject. Just a guess that she would not make the breedable horse of the year award.

My point is, on the way up to her (and beyond) there were no goals apparent other than the individual goals of the individual breeder. When the regestries were founded THEN they put some goals together - but that wasn't for years!

coriander

Jul. 23, 2007, 10:24 PM

Lovely is as lovely does, and Valine certainly produced. Horrifying head to look at, and as you point out conformation that could come off any given PMU farm, but then Ramiro himself was not a great beauty, but what talent. And what offspring - still.

tempichange

Jul. 23, 2007, 10:28 PM

Tempichange, I think the reciprocating has more to do with the amount of time a registry has been in place. The Zangersheide stud is a great example. Do you think that the Z Stud does not breed quality horses or approve quality stallions?

If Americans did what Fairview posted - created a top quality new registry with an elected board (great idea, btw) and all the american warmblood breeders fully supported it, that registry would not get reciprocating approvals from the euro registries either. Not until the registry built up enough & put enough horses out there competing at the higher levels. Under your criteria, we would never have an American breeding registry that you would support because breeders who think like you wouldn't support it until it was established and it can't get established until breeders support it.

So I'm a troll for disagreeing? Before you disagree, I suggest you look at what I have in the barn: an AWR approved welsh cob mare (pony testing) and arabian mare, who will go for GOV inspection and be bred to Donarweiss.

I don't disagree that the Z stud has quality horses (which from the initial glance looks to be mostly holst.), and as I said before there are quality individuals in AWS. However, the majority of those AWS individuals were pre-approved with their primary book before being approved by AWS.

But is it american to ignore good sense? I don't see purpose in adding Akle Teke, Morgan or drafts when you have the blood before you, already made. Making it more "american" by adding poor crosses isn't the way to the international arena.

Do I agree with the politics? not always. But I understand it and the reasons why the verbands carry themselves the way they do and can find reason to why they admit individuals.

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 23, 2007, 10:31 PM

My mare was not approved for breeding with the AWS, but got a very good score, and MMB with the ISR/OLD NA

OakesBrae

Jul. 23, 2007, 10:32 PM

Oh don't worry, other than her butt which I rather dislike, I like the big-headed ones. Rather that than an arab head (which is just not to my liking).

My point was, and remains, it's silly to pretend that the modern warmblood does not have heavy horse in their past. It's awfully pretentious to think that the AWS does not have goals while any other registry does. In fact, I would far rather see them accept "any" blood (though they do not) in an attempt to get these horses tracked and registered - because look at what happens - eventually the goal becomes evident and you end up with a really fantastic athletic horse.

In the US we tend to breed for breed instead of for type (ie. AQHA, Jockey Club etc.) which I feel is a mistake. The AWS is taking steps to remedy this, in my opinion.

Keep in mind, I'm a consumer, not a breeder. I am looking at this from what I want to see in the world as a rider and trainer. Sometimes I think breeders get carried away breeding for other breeders and forget about us...you know...the end-user. That's of course, a rant for another day and most certainly another thread.

Adligen vom Pferd

Jul. 23, 2007, 10:33 PM

Really? I thought there was an enormous difference between horses that were used to plow the fields or pull carts and horses that were used for carriage driving (curricles, landaus, phaetons, and even the gig). I can't imagine that you could compare a cart horse with a carriage horse, even 300 years ago.

That is the same as early Americans saying they had "field laborers" and not "slaves". Call it what you want, if you are so sensitive to be offended by having linage to a "plow horse" versus a "cart horse". It's a good thing there are others who are not as petty and narrow minded as you.

OakesBrae

Jul. 23, 2007, 10:34 PM

My mare was not approved for breeding with the AWS, but got a very good score, and MMB with the ISR/OLD NA

Oh Darlyn that's right - I'm so sorry - now I remember. Senior moment here this eve :)

Making it more "american" by adding poor crosses isn't the way to the international arena.

See and THIS is what I just don't get. Why do you assume they are poor crosses? Why do you assume that the American horses have nothing to offer?

risingstarfarm

Jul. 23, 2007, 10:39 PM

That is the same as early Americans saying they had "field laborers" and not "slaves". Call it what you want, if you are so sensitive to be offended by having linage to a "plow horse" versus a "cart horse". It's a good thing there are others who are not as petty and narrow minded as you.

Not quite sure what you are trying to get at. My sensitivity isn't offended at all - just trying to indicate that carriage horses were entirely different from cart horses.

OakesBrae

Jul. 23, 2007, 10:42 PM

Modern carriage vs. olden cart/carriage horses are not at all the same thing. I certainly would want a big solid animal to pull some of the very heavy carriages that were far more similar to what the drafts pull today than the modern carriages.

Let's not get misled by a big head ;-)

It's not just her big head (though I do love a big headed horse) - it's her lack of hind end - just like Gambo.

I'm not saying that an f1 cross is the same thing - please, again, don't get me wrong. Although I do have a lovely f1 (not intended for breeding, but instead he'll make a fantastic performance horse) who certainly rivals many WBs in movement, suspension and athletic ability. If you look at all of his pics you'll see that his feet barely ever seem to touch the ground - not a heavy horse at all (and he's not trained yet).

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2946482350066388454UdKqfX?vhost=pets

What I am saying is that it's not necessarily a BAD thing to incorporate those things into good breeding practices. Right now the modern wbs are almost undistinguishable from performance bred TBs, which is okay if you like that sort of thing, but I prefer something different (in my sig, please see my very well bred KWPN horse, Machado).

PineTreeFarm

Jul. 23, 2007, 10:43 PM

Link to another big guy.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sinaeda

He shows up in a number of pedigrees,

But here's an even better picture. Look for him about 1/3 of the way down the page. He's pulling something (but it's not a carriage)

http://www.gelderlanderhorse.nl/nederlnd/De%20echte%20sterren%20achter%20het%20KWPN%20in%20 Het%20Groninger%20Paard.htm

OakesBrae

Jul. 23, 2007, 10:45 PM

Whoot, he is a hottie - I am drooling!

risingstarfarm

Jul. 23, 2007, 10:49 PM

http://www.aromancereview.com/columns/carriages.phtml

Carriages (not carts) in Regency England. I don't believe that Cart/Plow horses were used.

siegi b.

Jul. 23, 2007, 11:01 PM

Ok, so we're supposed to give the AWS/AWR credit for not having been around as long as the European warmblood registries, and therefore, not having had time to "gel" the perfect American warmblood. Consider this, however... Both the AWR and AWS have been around since 1981 and 1983, respectively, not much longer than the Zangersheide Stud (late 70's).

For some reason the Zangersheide Stud has managed to garner quite a reputation in the jumping world, something that they had set out to do. The AWR/AWS however, has continued to flounder without getting much in the way of attention and/or reputation other than one of registering draft crosses and other odd breeds.

And you all can argue until you're blue in the face about what the European registries used as their foundation horses. Fact of the matter is they now have horses that are leading in all the Olympic disciplines - one of the reasons many Americans go to Europe to import their next sport horse.

My recommendation to all of you who think that it's a European warmblood registry conspiracy is to quit whining and start putting your money where your mouth is. If you think you can hold your own in Olympic competition with your AWR/AWS horses, then let's see it! Why weren't your horses in the PanAm games? And why don't I see them qualifying for the Olympics?

You've had over a quarter of a century to develop a horse that according to you should beat the pants off anything born in Europe. So where the heck are you?

OakesBrae

Jul. 23, 2007, 11:03 PM

More than one way to pull a carriage/cart/coach :)
http://www.carriagesofeurope.com/?pid=3

risingstarfarm

Jul. 23, 2007, 11:13 PM

With the internet at our fingertips - I see no end the possible examples ;-))

I give in!

coriander

Jul. 23, 2007, 11:20 PM

Thank you Siegi - you made the point I was trying to make. :)

OakesBrae

Jul. 23, 2007, 11:29 PM

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 23, 2007, 11:31 PM

Teddy is American bred. Not a drop of European blood in him. He won the Gold at the Pan Am Games. GO American mix bred! He was carefully bred with a purpose. Just because the ingredients are different, does not mean we can't make really good soup.

I am not trying to win the Olympics. I am trying to make a horse that is easy for Amateurs to ride, with gaits and jump that will be highly cometitive with the best of those uber "sensitive" guys. IMO, that IS better.

Like I said, I am not convinced the AWS or AWR can be the registry/organization we need in this country, but they do serve a purpose, and they are trying to educate their members about conformation, and gaits.

OakesBrae

Jul. 23, 2007, 11:32 PM

With the internet at our fingertips - I see no end the possible examples ;-))

*laughing* but it is fun, you have to admit :) Believe me, I harbor no ill will no matter WHAT you breed as long as they are quality animals.

I personally would like to see a sporthorse designed for me - the average ammy and trainer. I'm never going to be an Anky or international show jumper - I'm older, with limited resources. But what I DO enjoy is an athletic horse with a very sound mind and body - bred for my purposes. I'm tired of getting the olympic rejects, who though are athletic enough for my purposes also have minds that are...well...more suited to the olympic competitor than a mom of 3.

Sonesta

Jul. 23, 2007, 11:52 PM

.... I'm simply saying, for god's sakes, the only way to make this registry work is to join it, share your passion and help make the American Sporthorse - instead of turning your backs on something that could potentially be just as worthwhile.

See, the problem is that AWS (don't know about AWR) is wholly owned by one person. It's a private playground. There is no board of directors, no membership with voting rights to make any changes or develop any real goals and guidelines. Its members cannot "help make the American Sporthorse" -- unless their "passion" is the same as that of its single owner - who seems to have no passion except to make a buck.

AWS began as a vanity registry and a scheme to make money. They took anything and everything and were totally clueless about horses - but did know a thing or two about marketing. Now, they are trying to gain respectability. It's too late. And those of us trying to legitimately breed good sport horses refuse to be dragged into supporting this private for profit business that calls itself a registry. So, we have no choice except to ally ourselves with the European registries that actually know what they are doing.

It's a real shame that a couple of short-sighted greedy individuals are wholly responsible for making the term "American Warmblood" a laughing stock world wide. I would so have liked to be proudly breeding American Warmbloods.

OakesBrae

Jul. 24, 2007, 12:00 AM

See, and that's not really how I see it. Though it doesn't SEEM like you can change things without things like a board of directors - things can. However, you can change nothing by sitting on the outside. To help the registry "see the light", if I were breeding today, I would select AWS approved Stallions that Fit into my breeding program. I would continue to have my foals inspected because participation is part of the battle.

But you have to start somewhere.

If I had an alternative to AWS to support, I might, but I don't. Most registries are becoming too closed for me - not that I am breeding, but I may step into that arena someday. To deny a horse that has any draft blood at all (as most registries do) is, in my opinion, limiting. There are things that the drafties have to offer, just like there are things that the TB has to offer. So, if I could have that openness, breeding to type goals in another registry in the US, I'd support that.

STF

Jul. 24, 2007, 12:04 AM

It's a real shame that a couple of short-sighted greedy individuals are wholly responsible for making the term "American Warmblood" a laughing stock world wide. I would so have liked to be proudly breeding American Warmbloods

Well said!

STF

Jul. 24, 2007, 12:08 AM

To deny a horse that has any draft blood at all (as most registries do) is, in my opinion, limiting.

Some registries tried this mix. I know the Swedes did yrs ago and it was a total disaster. The cross did not make what was needed, so it HAD to be taken out and not let in for good reason. Results of the crosses were not favorable, so they refused to do it.
They are not doing it to be mean, they are doing it because facts showed negative outcomes and hindering the breed goals.

OakesBrae

Jul. 24, 2007, 12:12 AM

Sonesta, perhaps I'm missing something...
http://www.americanwarmblood.org/directors/index.htm

STF, while I understand that it did not work for SOME, perhaps the cross was not done well :) When I look at the pedigrees of many modern WBs, apart from the heavy horses which have been mentioned, I'm seeing an overwhelming amount of thoroughbred. So...are the euro registries really trying to recreate the modern tb? ;-) You know I'm just joking, but really, I'm very puzzled.

I'm not saying that it's "mean", I'm saying that I believe there is something to be contributed if it's done well. Again, I'm not saying you can or should willy nilly breed anything to anything and end up with a wb. Keep in mind, there are heavy horses, and there are riding-type draft bodies - not all are the sort you would see pulling a plow.

Sonesta

Jul. 24, 2007, 12:29 AM

Oakesbrae, they CALL them directors, but they are not. They are just unpaid volunteers who hand out awards at shows.

There is no BOD like a real organization has. Only one person owns it and runs it.

Oh, and while their website claims AWS is a non-profit organization, they are not listed as such with the IRS.

~Freedom~

Jul. 24, 2007, 07:19 AM

single owner - who seems to have no passion except to make a buck.

Disagree

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 24, 2007, 09:43 AM

The AWS and the AWR are both one man shows. Single owner, no other input for change.

OTOH, the ISR/OLD NA does have a BOD, but it is also STILL a one man show. Brysch is going to run it his way. Just like the AWS and AWR, his dream, his rules.

All are good options, but NONE of them are what we need for American breeders as the MAIN organization for Warmblood and sporthorse breeding.

The rest are run in agreement with German, Dutch, etc rules.

We need an organization run by an ELECTED board of breeders, riders, judges, trainers, and vets.

siegi b.

Jul. 24, 2007, 10:58 AM

OakesBrae - I think you need to get your feet wet in the breeding business in order to appreciate the fact that just because you think a certain type of horse (draft) would go well with another type (TB) doesn't make it an intelligent breeding decision. You have to understand what is behind the two horses to be bred, what those bloodlines have produced before, in order to lessen your risk of producing below average horses.

I think that Fairview agrees with me that record keeping is the single most important thing a registry can do for its breeders. These records just happen to be readily available for the European registries because they've been keeping them for many, many years. For me that is one of the main reasons for sticking with my "boutique Euro registry", as tri likes to call it. Another reason is the very strict and consistent way horses are evaluated, and last but not least, the perceived quality associated with horses that do well within that registry.

I don't breed just for fun - it's a business - so why would I make my life more difficult by producing horses that belong to a registry that the majority of folks don't respect, as well as horses that either don't sell or at a substantially lower price than their European-registered cousins?

It's easy to sit on the sidelines pronouncing what you would do IF you were a breeder.... Walk a mile in a real breeder's shoes and then see how your tune will change.

spacely

Jul. 24, 2007, 11:40 AM

Disagree

Would you like to elaborate or are you limited to 1 word answers? I agree with Sonesta FWIW.

Sonesta

Jul. 24, 2007, 12:35 PM

My mare was not approved for breeding with the AWS, but got a very good score, and MMB with the ISR/OLD NA

I hope you are not thinking this is because the AWS inspector was stricter? Actually, it was because the AWS inspector is clueless about what is or isn't a good horse.

Gad! Many of us here could tell you story after story that illustrate that the AWS inspector can speak the language but has NO EYE. And several on this forum were present at the show where Hilda Gurney snapped at her to "Just shut up. You don't know what you're talking about."

STF

Jul. 24, 2007, 12:49 PM

Oh keeper of the lease and muzzle, where are thou?

sporthorsefilly

Jul. 24, 2007, 01:27 PM

I hope you are not thinking this is because the AWS inspector was stricter? Actually, it was because the AWS inspector is clueless about what is or isn't a good horse.

Gad! Many of us here could tell you story after story that illustrate that the AWS inspector can speak the language but has NO EYE.

Oh, I am not certain that is terribly true! She gave my 2 year old mare the same scores that she received from a good many USDF judges. That score was a 79.7!

My mare was also "approved for breeding" by AWS, based on score of (redundantly) 79.7 as a three year old in USDF competition.

Be kind to those of us with AWS horses.

And yes, I am an AWS Director: Awards Coordinator, and it is true, they NEVER listen to a thing that I recommend.

Sonesta

Jul. 24, 2007, 02:04 PM

Ok, STF, I'll shut up now.

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 24, 2007, 02:15 PM

I hope you are not thinking this is because the AWS inspector was stricter?

Actually they are definitely tougher on mare breeding approval. The mares that pass the approval score of 75% after the age of 3 is very small. I believe about 10% of TB mares pass. Maybe less. Come to think of it, probably less as probably about only 10% of all the mares pass.

Contrast that to the ISR, or Belgians and it is 100% of TB mares pass. Every Arabian mare has also passed, and also the unregistered mares and Appendix mare into the lower book. I actually think it is RARE for ANY mare to be presented to the BWP or Oldenburg registries and NOT pass. That is NOT because cr*ppy mares are not presented. It drives me crazy to see horrible mares score a 94 or 95, and pretty nice mares score a 96 or 97. Those ladies are NOT that close. :winkgrin: THAT is all about money.

The AWS believes that for a mare to be bred, she should be just as nice as a stallion. THAT is the message they are trying to send. That is even more important in the USA where a mare very well may produce as many foals in her lifetime as a stallion.

When I hosted the AWS Inspections, I didn't have the time to listen to the comments, but I did see the overall conformation, and gaits. The order placed was very consistent with what I would have placed, and I have put many classes in order from the sidelines at Devon, and other places. My scores are almost always within a few tenths of a point, and I may differ from the judge's order by switching a couple, but very close.

I have qualified as a owner and breeder to apply for my Sporthorse Judges license many times over beginning by 1997, and my 6th horse bred. The 2 that did not qualify me were the moms of 2 that did.

The scores that I have seen for the AWS have been very correct, but their 75% approval for mares is tougher than the others. I have seen many MANY mares that are in the MMB for other registries that I would score 65%, 68%, etc. We had Jean Brooks once, Nikki Atwell once, but the rest (3 or 4?) were Rachel Erhlich.

Note ** I just wanted to clarify my position. I am not, and have not been a member of the AWS for several years (4?). My horse's papers come from other registries. One of my stalliions is approved with the AWS due to requests from breeders, as well as some marketing. He has never been presented to the AWS, but simply by sending in his scores from breed shows including Dressage at Devon.

They are an option, but we STILL need a North American Warmblood/Sporthorse Breeding Association run by an ELECTED board of directors of breeders, riders, trainers, judges, and vets.

and speaking about money, does the Hunter book of European breeding registres ring any bells? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 24, 2007, 02:33 PM

Seigi, I do agree that the record keeping is very important. I just don't see it used much. I think it is critical for breeders to look at crosses. For instance. A may be a very good stallion, and crossed with B may produce some nice horses, but only B, out of C mare. Crossing A with a B mare out of a D or E mare may be garbage. How many breeders actually look for the crosses? PROVEN crosses, and then beyond just sire of the mare. Just how "proven" can that new flavor of the month be? THAT is not breeding. THAT is gambling.

I wish we had those kind of records here, but we can't even get decent sire lists.

sporthorsefilly

Jul. 24, 2007, 03:17 PM

Fairview, I don't totally agree with your assessment of the scoring of TB mares by BWP or ISR.

When my TB mare was presented to BWP her score was identical to those received in USDF/DSHB shows. Her foal scored within 1 point of the exact average score for her 4 classes at Morven in June...so I would say that the BWP inspectors are right on the mark!

I am a TB fan, so for me, I see some pretty ugly warmbloods, that I wouldn't give barn space to, scoring high...to me that is a travesty, so it depends on where your eye and opinion is. TBs can only improve the movement and modernize the WB, used judicially of course.

I will clarify my AWS position too. I am an AWS member/In-hand coordinator/Director of AWS, my mare is nominated for AWS awards; has been top 2 year old and 3 year old in-hand horse in AWS based on USDF earned scores and is AWS approved for breeding.

I am also a member of BWP, my TB mare is BWP approved; and her Balta Czar filly is BWP registered.

Both horses are also fully registered with USEF; PHR and nominated for Silver Stirrup awards.

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 24, 2007, 03:28 PM

Depends what you are looking for. My old motto was always, the uglier the head, the better the movement. That in many cases holds true. I have one mare that has produced nice hunter type movers. They have fairly pretty heads. Last year she threw me a filly with a big heavy head like her daddy! :yes::yes: cool, COOL! The filly has huge suspension, power and rhythm. YES! I just LOVE her! It came with the head ;)

As a rule though, I don't score the head.

sporthorsefilly

Jul. 24, 2007, 03:38 PM

NO, please don't score the head, that is the one feature that I can't seem to warm to...big heads...roman noses...UGH!

I recall first seeing Sparkle and thinking, God, THAT head. How will I live with it... Fortunately, she has a pretty face, a great temperment, and she is a big overstuffed clown. She does have great movement...so maybe it does start in the head!

I may have to go back to the hunter ring, as I love an Arab-like head on a horse!

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 24, 2007, 03:42 PM

I may have to go back to the hunter ring, as I love an Arab-like head on a horse!

Then you are better off staying with Dressage, because the Hunters are gettign heavier and heavier. :winkgrin:

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 24, 2007, 03:45 PM

My favorite heads. Ollie and his sire.

siegi b.

Jul. 24, 2007, 03:52 PM

.... and here's a remark by sporthorsefilly... "TBs can only improve the movement and modernize the WB.."

This is where I quit reading anything related to movement in horses authored by sporthorsefilly! :-) Let me repeat this - TBs can only improve movement?? You have got to be kidding me! :-) :-)

sporthorsefilly

Jul. 24, 2007, 03:53 PM

My favorite head:

http://www.herselffarm.com/images/magcar0-R1-050-23A_small.jpg

Look at those soft kind eyes and that sweet expression!

Actually this is a lovely head too: http://www.herselffarm.com/images/Greatie.jpg

Sorry, I can't figure out how to attach thumbnails.

~Freedom~

Jul. 24, 2007, 03:59 PM

Would you like to elaborate

No

juliab

Jul. 24, 2007, 04:31 PM

You know Seigi, there are people out there who prefer the way a TB moves and looks and acts over a WB. Some people with experience and knowledge of horses just don't like WBs at all and some just don't like TBs. I could win the lottery tomorrow and I'd still ride, own and breed TB sporthorses and not WBs. I don't understand why you feel the need to make a comment like: "Let me repeat this - TBs can only improve movement?? You have got to be kidding me! :-) :-) ". I prefer the way a TB moves and believe you get the best possible sporthorse when you breed a good TB to another good TB. If others want WBs and like them, that is fine with me. But there is nothing wrong with preferring a TB.

wlrottge

Jul. 24, 2007, 04:39 PM

but my point was that it was all added with a goal...

That matters??? ;)

I think there in lies the problem that many of us as buyers see. If I were a breeder (in the future probably) I would want only to breed the horses with the best possibility of being financially viable for several reasons. First why would I spend money to produce a product I am going to loose money on? Secondly as a moral obligation, if I breed a nice horse that has a greater value, that animal is more likely to have a good home. What is the best way to meet these goals now? Through a well respected registry. We see AWR/S and our mind immediately goes, "next" if I don't see another registration with that unless it absolutely blows our socks off. With the variability in the approved horses, what's the goal? (I think someone else answered this a couple of posts back)

That being said, however our stable of three consist of two JC TB's and a trak x tb. One is old school "classic" build (Kris S. x Inreality Star). I was asked five times at the last show what kind of wb he is (before they saw his flat trot ;)). The other is a bit lighter, but still the stronger shoulder/hind end build. Our 3yo is anglo-trak and we've decided that anglo-AT papers are better than AWR papers even though his sire's two get prior to him both went strong first premium at AWR. Why do we feel that way? We don't feel that the respect factor is there. What will it take to fix that?

Interesting to know a/b the AWR/S, however... one "man" show hu??

I love the TB mind set and work ethic, but... I wish more people were breeding sport horse TB's!! Given how our Trak/TB is going, we may have found the perfect cross for us. Still light, bigger flashier movement, but loves to work!

spacely

Jul. 24, 2007, 05:02 PM

Hunters are gettign heavier and heavier. :winkgrin:

Not in my world.:no:

My 07 filly. (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2218635110055789344HQGjED)
I'd hardly call her heavy (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2253338400055789344WJtThQ) & she's got all the makings of a good hunter.

spacely

Jul. 24, 2007, 05:05 PM

No

The why bother posting?:rolleyes:

tri

Jul. 24, 2007, 05:15 PM

Tempichange, you weren't one of the ones I was calling a troll - I responded to your thread and said don't feed the trolls to the others meaning we all shouldn't respond to those who are just posting personal attacks and have nothing to offer in the way of a discussion.

Posters, like Siegi, for example.... she has no understanding of the Z stud's history. They have been around a LONG LONG LONG time and registered their horses for many years with the BWP. Then they had a falling out with that registry and went into negotiations with the Old Verband. They failed to come up with an agreement and they opted to register under their own name/brand. The point is that when those SAME HORSES were BWP, they had reciprical agreeements with the other euro registries and those SAME HORSES under the Z Stud brand DON'T. So having reciprical approvals with the euro registries has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with politics.

Fairview, had a conversation with the AWR office and was told that an elected board wasn't out of the question. And you are right about the ISR/Oldna. It is very much of a one man show.

Wow, to the poster who said AWS judges don't know anything - Isn't Rachel Erhlich one of the judges!?? As far as the AWR goes, the judge is the same person who ran the Am Holsteiner Horse Association for quite some time, isn't it?

tri

Jul. 24, 2007, 05:20 PM

"If you think you can hold your own in Olympic competition with your AWR/AWS horses, then let's see it! Why weren't your horses in the PanAm games? And why don't I see them qualifying for the Olympics?"

AWR Horses:

Elly Shobel and Raison de Joie (AWR): 2005 USDF Horse of the Year. Competing at the Markel Young Horse Championships for 4 yr olds.

Raison d'Etre (AWR): Working towards qualifying for the Pan Am Games in 2007, 2002 USDF Horse of the Year.

Ok, so lets hear about your home breds that have qualified for the Pan Am Games? Turn around is fair play.

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 24, 2007, 05:23 PM

Isn't Rachel Erhlich one of the judges!??

Unfortunately, no. She has not been working for them for several years. I very much enjoyed working with Rachel. She has a lot of experience with the European bloodlines, and was always willing to pass along her knowledge.

Sonesta

Jul. 24, 2007, 05:49 PM

Rachael is a good horsewoman. I was NOT speaking of her. When she began working with AWS, I almost had a glimmer of hope for them. But alas......

Black Forest

Jul. 24, 2007, 05:56 PM

My favorite heads. Ollie and his sire.

Sorry FHC - if you call that "ugly" heads you have led a very sheltered life.

Judging from the pics, and they are all I can go on - your boys are nowhere near as "old fashioned" as anyone reading your comments without seeing the pics might think they are

you'd love a mare a friend of mine just bought - Argentan Lukas (Lugano) Goldjunge Wöhler. She's a boat - but SUCH a well balanced and correct boat. A bit too "massive" for my personal taste but oh I can just see the foals she will throw

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 24, 2007, 06:36 PM

Black Forest, I think Ollie and Westie have GEORGOUS heads - heavy heads with character. They are NOT refined and modern.

Like I said in my post on another thread. Old and modern is always changing. What to me was modern of the 1990s, is now older than the current treands. Ollie IS old type - not reactive, POWER, shorter legs, mre level croup, good bone. Many of the Warmbloods I am seeing today are more refined, legs are TOO refined for the bodies.

I would LOVE that mare! :yes::yes:

~Freedom~

Jul. 24, 2007, 07:10 PM

Rachael is a good horsewoman. I was NOT speaking of her. When she began working with AWS, I almost had a glimmer of hope for them. But alas......

AWS horses judged by her. Good/bad?

Sonesta

Jul. 24, 2007, 07:37 PM

tri

Jul. 24, 2007, 08:26 PM

"But just because there are some good horses in there doesn't mean that the registry as a whole is worth a tinker's you-know-what."

So, what does? Because I have seen a whole lot of really bad horses approved with the euro registries. Especially in the beginnings of their "offshoots" here in the U.S. and a lot of those really bad horses are still producing offspring in those registries. So what I am hearing from you is that it doesn't matter that there are good horses in the registry, it doesn't matter that there are and have been good inspectors, it doesn't matter that some of the horses are now starting to compete well at the higher levels, it doesn't matter that to get into the highest books, the horse has to have very high scores, you just don't like it because there are "some", "a few", "a couple", "ONE" horse that you don't like. Why aren't you holding the euro registries to the same standards? Are you really serious in that you would consider a breeding to every single stallion approved in every euro warmblood registry? I sure the heck wouldn't.

La Gringa

Jul. 24, 2007, 08:31 PM

I think it's just sad that everything "made in America" seems to be so inferior.

What can we do to overcome this bias?

Are we really that barbaric?

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 24, 2007, 09:04 PM

I read recently that there is some "new" European water that will sell for $5.00 a bottle. I bet it is really speshial stuff! You know what, since the European breeders are SO much ahead of American breeders, after all, they have been doing this for generations in their families, WHY re-invent the wheel? Why should ANY americans try to breed warmbloods? The Europeans already have the system going, the organization, the riders. What is the point of doing it all again from scratch over here with breeders that are just learning for the past decade or so? Why not just let the people that know what they are doing, do it? :cool:

STF

Jul. 24, 2007, 09:05 PM

This is the prime reason I go on bloodlines, preformace and such and not so much on the registry papers anymore.
Registries are just that, a place to register your horse and get awards. Standards and rules vary with each, it just depends on WHO you want to give your $$$$ to each year.
Nuff said.......

OakesBrae

Jul. 24, 2007, 09:24 PM

STF, on this I think we can agree :)

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 24, 2007, 09:28 PM

STF, well said!

pintopiaffe

Jul. 24, 2007, 10:19 PM

I will concede that my AWS inspection experiences were with Rachael Erlich. I did not know she is no longer with them.

Marieke

Jul. 25, 2007, 07:51 AM

...... she has no understanding of the Z stud's history. They have been around a LONG LONG LONG time and registered their horses for many years with the BWP. Then they had a falling out with that registry and went into negotiations with the Old Verband. They failed to come up with an agreement and they opted to register under their own name/brand. The point is that when those SAME HORSES were BWP, they had reciprical agreeements with the other euro registries and those SAME HORSES under the Z Stud brand DON'T. So having reciprical approvals with the euro registries has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with politics.

talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

This is NOT exactly how it went, sort of, approximately, but not completely. Leon Melchior is my uncle and his escapades may be interesting, but don't claim you know better when you don't.

tri

Jul. 25, 2007, 10:02 AM

Marieke, I find your attitude offensive. Do you really want me to put a complete history of your uncle on this site? I could if you wanted me to but it would serve no purpose. Btw, I admire your uncle so anything that I've said is not meant in a derogative manner.

But, as you have verified, my post is an approximation of the situation versus Siegi who claims that the Z Stud is a brand new breeding operation - that, I think, you would find insulting. Yes?

siegi b.

Jul. 25, 2007, 02:20 PM

tri - why do you go out of your way to instigate? Do you really think that Marieke would get into an argument with me because of your verbal vomit? And why don't you go to the Zangersheide website to get the information before you engage your keyboard?

And finally, why don't you find a different audience? This one is obviously less than impressed with your outbreaks.

MagicRoseFarm

Jul. 25, 2007, 02:39 PM

Siegi, I don't think it's a conspiracy at all *laughing* that would just be silly.

I also think it's just as silly to:

a. deny the existance of the heavy horse in modern WB pedigrees
b. decry the existance of AWS/AWR and not support our American breeding friends

I mean, think about it this way - while lots of us would like to see AWS/AWR succeed at the international level, because there are those who are so outspoken about NOT registering AWS/AWR or supporting those registries, and one generally breeds in order to sell ones youngsters - it is going to be almost impossible to achieve those goals IF American breeders are not going to support our own registry. And it is indeed hard to do that if there is such a stigma about the registry that registering your foals there is snubbed and deemed a poor business move.

What I'm trying to say is that there is more than one way to skin the proverbial cat. I am not snubbing the Euro registries - I OWN a KWPN horse. I'm simply saying, for god's sakes, the only way to make this registry work is to join it, share your passion and help make the American Sporthorse - instead of turning your backs on something that could potentially be just as worthwhile.

Bingo!

If you think you can hold your own in Olympic competition with your AWR/AWS horses, then let's see it! Why weren't your horses in the PanAm games? And why don't I see them qualifying for the Olympics?

You've had over a quarter of a century to develop a horse that according to you should beat the pants off anything born in Europe. So where the heck are you?

As the daughter of the breeder of the stallion who has currently sired the horses whose breeder is currently ranked #1 for the USEF in DSHB, with myself holding the 2nd place ranking, I am ATTEMPTING to do JUST THAT. Not one of my mares is imported, nor were their dams,grand dams,or great grand dams. I have used horses located on American soil in my breeding program for up to five generations.. Both of the stallion prospect sons we kept for our own breeding program are doing well, despite SOOOOOOO many limiting factors, some avoidable, and some not. AND we are breeding horses for AMERICAN Riders....

I have not seen any of my young stock devalued because I chose to register them American, but this choice HAS forced me to be more patient to sell.The "racism" has somewhat limited the mare base available to our stallion, which is unfortunate.

It HAS been difficult business-wise, but until more people have the testicular fortitude to TRY, you won't see many American Bred and American registered (credited) horses on the International scene. Simply put, these top breeders and their horses are a minority.

Until there is more success with American Bred and Born horses, registered, credited, and marketed as such, they will continue to be relatively unnoticed. It's a which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg, or catch 22 situation. It takes a minimum of 10 years for the fruit of a breeder's efforts to hit international level, making the US even more infantile. A major transformation in direction NOW, will not be visible for many years.

I think some of the horses I personally have bred CAN hold their own at international competition, it has not been THAT difficult for our homebred hunters to make national rankings, even if we did have to make sacrifices to see that they got opportunity. Hunters however is a much larger (and strictly American riders) market. Still (even in the hunters) is the stigma of "credit the horse with being European or just keep your mouth shut".

It is EXTREMELY difficult to get a horse in hands capable of providing an Olympic or international opportunity. Realistically, in the big picture, there are few riders for this level horses, and fewer capable trainers. There are also many other hurdles to overcome.. and the generated opinion that an AMERICAN bred and registered horse is less talented is perhaps the BIGGEST of these hurdles.

We ( in the US) already produce these horses,,, we must get rid of the racism and form a less disjointed front to help allow them the tiny window of opportunity.

siegi b.

Jul. 25, 2007, 05:27 PM

Magicrosefarm - if you go back to my post you will see that my challenge was to the AWR/AWS and NOT American bred horses in general.

All of my broodmares were bred and born in this country, and their offspring do consistently well in competition, so I have never disputed the fact that we do in fact breed very nice horses in this country.

It's when I'm faced with the never ending saga of the AWR/AWS that I sometimes lose my patience and say "put out or shut up!" :-) I don't know why we need to tell breeders what registry they need to join. All the horses that the breeders here produce are American bred animals - I fail to see what the problem is and refuse to listen to garbage that is generated by one person specifically that says that everything registered under other than AWR/AWS is horrible and unpatriotic.

Carry on!

Policy of Truth

Jul. 25, 2007, 05:51 PM

I don't have the impression that siegi is saying that American-bred horses are "bad". I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) she is saying we have a long ways to go before we can be truly competitive with the European WB registries. I happen to agree with her.

I do not see how we can compare the AWS/AWR with the old tried and true registries of Europe. It seems as though we are being foolish and impatient in that way. I know some stallions registered with AWS/AWR are quality stallions, but that doesn't mean the entire program is of quality. I would love to see ONE high quality American WB registry that is carefully modeled after a quality European registry.

Draft horses may have been used WAY back in pedigrees, but they aren't being used now in Europe up close, as far as I'm aware. I believe there is a reason and purpose for that.

If siegi is saying our American TB mares are not good enough, I would disagree. Not all TB's are created equal, so it would have to depend on the individual. I happen to prefer more blood, so a TB/WB cross is ideal for me. For others, it isn't. Both are fine and good :)

And tri, what made you think YOUR attitude was NOT offensive?? :eek:

MagicRoseFarm

Jul. 25, 2007, 06:01 PM

I for one prefer not to be asked over and over AND OVER if I imported my horse ...I am SICK of hearing it.

NEVER has anyone said to me " He is such wonderful quality,he must be American bred, did you breed him?"

This view is what needs to change, and as long as the high profile horses in this country are referred to as Hungarian, Russian, Irish or Kosockstanian, this view will remain the same.

siegi b.

Jul. 25, 2007, 06:03 PM

Marieke

Jul. 25, 2007, 06:24 PM

I don't know tri, I don't know Siegie, I have nothing to do with aws/awr. I'm pretty blank about all of it and I just stumbled opun the thread and clicked last page and read a varied story about a family member.

I'm completely ok if you have opinions about Leon, but I'm not ok with stating approximations of the truth. I would appreciate if you said it was your opinion.

I'm glad you 'admire' him and I have no beef with you, I had no intention of being rude, but I am pretty to the point.

*and my reading comprehention just tells me that this is not what you said, you talked about his breeding :D* AND to ad fuel to the fire, without intend, just to . He didn't start his studbook untill the '90s, I think about 15 years ago (he had done so at my highschool graduation party in 1992 to hilarity of most of the family, as we had a 'joke' between him and another uncle who started the haflinger association in the Netherlands). He BRED horses for a longer time, but so did the rest of my family.

To compare the AWR was established in 1981, the AWS in 1983 the KWPN-NA in 1983, BWP-NA 1987, ok that was the result of the quick Google search (keywords 'american warmblood established')

pintopiaffe

Jul. 25, 2007, 06:32 PM

MagicRose, GREAT post.

but until more people have the testicular fortitude to TRY, you won't see many American Bred and American registered (credited) horses on the International scene.

Unfortunately, I'm not a big dog in the horse world. I'll only ever see regional competition. But you've restored my hope for going the way I'm going with that statement.

I hope someday we'll be able to look back at the beginnings, and see that it was hard, it wasn't all perferct, but the ideas were good, and some of us will be able to have registration numbers that show we supported it then. And scores to prove our faith in our horses.

Horsecrazy27

Jul. 25, 2007, 07:03 PM

I've never claimed there are NO good horses in AWS. Anything Rachael put in there is likely quite good. But just because there are some good horses in there doesn't mean that the registry as a whole is worth a tinker's you-know-what.

Shoot, even their regular inspector might have accidentally given the correct scores to a few horses. You know the old saying? Even a blind hog might find an acorn every once in a while.

That last paragraph.....one of my GREAT friends is an inspector, she takes this very seriously and never gives up on learning....she taught Rachel!!!!!!! GOSH....really peeves me. All the scores have been equal OR LOWER than those of other registries, so appears she has been "on the money" as far as scores go.

ljshorses

Jul. 26, 2007, 08:17 AM

I have been watching and reading this thread for quite some time and just finally had to say something. I have been to many, many different warmblood inspections over the years with my horses or with friends (Dutch, AHS, OldNA, RPSI, AWS/AWR) and I have to say that there is NO Perfect organization. I have seen way too many politics enter in over the years and AWR is not exempt. All of them have room for improvement in my opinion. The only one I have seen consistently fair beyond belief is RPSI, but there are things with that organization that could improve as with any quickly growing business. The only, only one that I have been offended at was AWR, the only, only one I saw blatant conformation statements made that just were not true was AWR. The only, only one that I saw as a true one person show was AWR. Their in charge person once told me I was unAmerican not to have all of my horses with AWR! Being Native American and being told that by a person from Germany was quite a slap. I was all ready to support them until I witnessed a few things so all I have to say is if anyone is considering them as their registry of choice please attend an inspection or two at first. You may save a lot of money by doing so. Or here's hoping and they are actually improving and someday will be the best registry choice for America.

not again

Jul. 26, 2007, 08:25 AM

Wow! This thread could serve as a poster for hate crimes and bigotry from many directions.
If you don't like something, then do something positive about it.
A lot of bandwidth is going in to negative comments which only serve to divide.
Lots of good is going on with horse breeding, genetic selection as well as culling. That needs to happen in all registries and breeds. Thank you to those who have educated with their post.
Lots can be learned from the knowledge of every person on this board.

spacely

Jul. 26, 2007, 11:35 AM

A lot of bandwidth is going in to negative comments which only serve to divide.

No, a lot of bandwidth is going to telling the truth.

wlrottge

Jul. 26, 2007, 12:33 PM

I know some stallions registered with AWS/AWR are quality stallions, but that doesn't mean the entire program is of quality. I would love to see ONE high quality American WB registry that is carefully modeled after a quality European registry.

--claps loudly--

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 26, 2007, 02:28 PM

I would rather see one that is developed using whatever is decided by an Elected board of American breeders, riders, trainers, judges, (a few of each of those from each discipline) and vets.

OakesBrae

Jul. 26, 2007, 02:34 PM

Well, then why don't we do it? Anyone got the bandwidth (as far as time constraints go?) I'm game to do whatever I can help with. I'm not very knowledgable about breeding, but I'm a project manager in real life so I do have SOME skills.:lol:

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 26, 2007, 02:44 PM

I think the first thing that would need to be done is to get several big name trainers from each discipline that have shown a desire to support American breeding and would be willing to give some time to help with organizing, add respectability, and draw. People like Lendon Gray, & Denny Emerson.

OakesBrae

Jul. 26, 2007, 03:45 PM

Well, Denny posts here right?

sporthorsefilly

Jul. 26, 2007, 03:59 PM

Haven't we been down this trail too many times in the past. All the trees look the same and the path is very worn...but nothing has really changed!

Wouldn't it make more sense to combind AWS/AWR and PHR into one American Sport Horse Registry? I will hold your coats, go for it!

Actually, NONE of us have the ability or the $$ to make it happen...any more than we have to create all ALL NEW REGISTRY! Frankly why bother? What is the point? Does it effect how horses are scored in the ring, or in inspections? Would you breed your horses differently? Will it make registration easier or more difficult? I doubt that is will be cheaper! AND do you really think it will make the verbands look at our horses differently? I really have no problem with the current Verbands.

Unless you can get a Sport Horse Org together like the Jockey Club, and have it accepted world wide, you may as well stand pat!

Am I missing something????

tri

Jul. 26, 2007, 05:42 PM

If there was a better alternative to the KWPN, would breeders change? If there was a new and better Old Verband, would people change? If there was a new and better RPSI would breeder change? I don't know if they would.

The AWR and the AWS doesn't do all the things that I'd like them to but, guess what, all the other euro registries (whose main goal and interest is to promote horses in their own countries, not ours) don't do all the things I'd like them to do for american breeders either. No organization is perfect.

I do get tired of the false information spread around by so many posters here. Posters like Siegi who claims over and over again to have no knowledge of either organization and who is dedicated themselves to promoting the KWPN ALWAYS and I mean WITHOUT FAIL comes onto any thread that has to do with the AWR or the AWS and bashes it. Then, they try, with their lies, false information and personal attacks, try to run off anyone who supports either registry. One has to wonder why?

Marieke, the whole point of my post in relation to your uncle was Siegi posting that your uncle started from scratch when he started up the Z Stud. He didn't. He had years of and a stable(s) full of euro registry approved stallions, mares and riding horses to launch his registry from. Quite different from the AWR and the start of the AWS who really did start from nothing.

ljshorses. I am sorry you had such a bad experience. I could tell you horror stories from inspections from just about every registry out there as I too have been to many different ones over many years. And I do agree that American bred horses should be registered as American. As a Native American breeding American bloodlined horses in America, why do you want to call them German? Dutch? etc?

spacely

Jul. 26, 2007, 05:48 PM

I do get tired of the false information spread around by so many posters here.

Hello Pot? I hear Kettle calling....

Quite different from the AWR and the start of the AWS who really did start from nothing.

They may have started from nothing, but that start went down the worng path.

carolprudm

Jul. 26, 2007, 05:54 PM

Thanks, Pacificsolo.... and no, it's not that I think American TBs aren't good enough for breeding, I just questioned the statement that "they always improved movement". TBs can improve a lot of things including stamina and length of leg, but I wouldn't count on them to always produce better movement than traditional warmbloods.

Depends on what you consider to be good movement. I have serious reservations about the broken trot that is so popular. In the quest for expression they are losing purity.
JMHO

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 26, 2007, 06:34 PM

Wouldn't it make more sense to combind AWS/AWR and PHR into one American Sport Horse Registry? I will hold your coats, go for it!

If you had invested 25 years starting a business that supported your family, would you give it away? I just don't see that happening. In addition, the names, the reputations, etc are reasons we are NEVER going to see them supported by ALL of our breeders.

We need an organization that our breeders WILL support. If a valid organization is biult, they WILL come. I DON'T mean they will use it to register their stock - at least not until trust is built up. But I do believe if the framework is put in place, and they can see the possibilities, they will join, and add their ideas & support.

It does us no good to get another tiny registry going. I think the "resigtry" should at first be an "also ran" to the membership part.

ljshorses

Jul. 26, 2007, 08:04 PM

[/QUOTE]ljshorses. I am sorry you had such a bad experience. I could tell you horror stories from inspections from just about every registry out there as I too have been to many different ones over many years. And I do agree that American bred horses should be registered as American. As a Native American breeding American bloodlined horses in America, why do you want to call them German? Dutch? etc?[/QUOTE]

Well, I have to say I have seen, as I previously stated, unfairnesses through all of the organizations, but and this is a big one, it's a little different to have things be a bit unfair compared to being publicly humiliated by someone touting conformational flaws that simply did not exist!!! I had a pony treated this way and then had it thoroughly checked by a very well-known vet who basicly said she was (well can't say that) so let's just say she was way off and leave it at that. I felt this was a way to get back at me for not putting all my horses in the organization (I only wanted to do the pony).

Anyway, to answer the 2nd part, yes I am Native American and I breed Dutch, Hano, Oldenburg and RPSI horses not AWR ones. My foals all have European decent even if some of their dam's are TBs. I do support AWS for performance only reasons and feel they do a great job at giving rewards to those in their organization that like to chase points and show a lot. They are also very nice to deal with and don't go out of their way to offend (as AWR) you if you choose not to go with them solely (as my mom always said, a little sugar gets you much farther than vinegar).I also host RPSI yearly because I have seen how extremely fair they are. They don't only give Premium awards to the host, they give it to who deserves it. They are great that way and are in the process of growth and change and I feel they will only get better.

To recap, I'd love to support an American based Registry and have tried to at least through the ASPR division. They just are not where I'd like to see them yet so I am not ready to jump on board yet.

ahf

Jul. 26, 2007, 09:27 PM

I’ve always marched to my own drummer, and I make no apologies for it.

You can search my posts going back years. I have NEVER, EVER bad-mouthed another registry. No registry is perfect, but mine is, at present, a perfect fit for me. I am very, very happy with the service, the breeding goals, and the vision. Who am I to question what a perfect fit would be to someone else?

The only thing I care about is breeding the best horses I can, for the market I target. The only thing I care about is that when I’m gone from this planet is that folks say I was always honest and honestly assessed the horses I bred, and that I bred some nice horses. What flag they fly under is not important. Site Champion, premiums, Born-in-the-USA….doesn’t matter. Were they athletes? Were they valuable riding horses? That’s what matters to me. When I look out in the fields of AHF…am I content that I’m on the right track? Right now, I am content, coupled with a rising sense of excitement…as my personal vision and goals begin to crystallize and come of age under saddle.

The thing that nearly makes me nearly ill in reading this thread over the last week is the not-so-subtle suggestion that I am not patriotic because of the registry I chose I be associated with. I agree with Black Forest…that is a deeply disturbingly and xenophobic mindset. My love for my country has absolutely NOTHING to do with the registry I chose to be associated with, and does not equate to burning a flag on the steps of the Capitol. How small-minded can you get? How small does your world-view have to be to think that way? I’ve always said I never want to be solely employed within the equine industry again because I never want my world to be that small... again. Everything said on this thread only confirms this decision.

Everything that everyone on this tread wants to achieve will come to pass if we can only get “one horse, one number, for life”. That is the Holy Grail we all need to tirelessly search for.

siegi b.

Jul. 26, 2007, 09:32 PM

tri - here is something you posted about me ... "Then, they try, with their lies, false information and personal attacks, try to run off anyone who supports either registry. One has to wonder why? " and I have no friggin' idea what the heck you're talking about. Can't you just for the fun of it, stick with facts and forego all the personal bs?

I will say it again - you're not doing any of the American registries any favors by posting the stuff you are spewing indiscriminately. Get your facts straight and maybe you'll have a basis from which to talk from.... The way things are right now you have to be perceived as the queen of back-pedaling. You put out this crap and, when confronted with facts, you start back-pedaling. You want to correct me again on the Zangersheide Stud??????

There is something that American breeders need and/or could use and that is support for their efforts in producing an internationally competitive horse. For some reason I'm very sure that that will happen without your support/bitching.

Get a life!

siegi b.

Jul. 26, 2007, 09:34 PM

ahf - my hat's off to you!!
Thank you!

pintopiaffe

Jul. 26, 2007, 09:54 PM

Everything that everyone on this tread wants to achieve will come to pass if we can only get “one horse, one number, for life”. That is the Holy Grail we all need to tirelessly search for.

That is an outstanding point. I guess what some of us are just trying to get across, is that AWS can be a place to get recognition of bloodlines, and record of pedigree. Not all horses will make the upper books. Most actually won't. But for tracking & awards purposes, AWS is quite useful for many, especially for those of us with horses of American heritage--Morgan, ASB, APHA, QH etc. of SPORTHORSE TYPE.

tempichange

Jul. 27, 2007, 08:23 AM

AWS is quite useful for many, especially for those of us with horses of American heritage--Morgan, ASB, APHA, QH etc. of SPORTHORSE TYPE.

Type and actual performance are two different things and the actual outcrossing of these individuals aren't usually succesful.

STF

Jul. 27, 2007, 10:32 AM

Are yall still fighting over here and wasteing good energy on a subject that will never be settled or agreed upon.
Really....... lets move on. There is no point to be made. Each of us breed for certain reasons and that is fine. Lets breed the types we love and let it be.

sporthorsefilly

Jul. 27, 2007, 11:11 AM

tri

Jul. 27, 2007, 11:43 AM

Siegi, troll, I am not backpedaling. I stand by what I said regarding the Z Stud. Marieke never said I was wrong, just that I didn't put out the whole picture - which would be an entire novel if I did. YOUR WERE JUST FLAT OUT WRONG with regards to the Z Stud. You don't know what you are talking about and why are you on this thread when you admit you know nothing about either the AWR or the AWS? You are a troll participating here to be as negative as you can be. If you love your KWPN so much, stick with them. They are a great organization. Too bad they have you. You give them a terrible, negative, petty image. Go start a thread about them and see if you can clean it up a bit - I doubt you can.

Spacely, as usual, you have NO facts.

pintopiaffe

Jul. 27, 2007, 12:19 PM

Type and actual performance are two different things and the actual outcrossing of these individuals aren't usually succesful.

That's a bit below the belt, no? I'll stand up my produce in open company any day. So far (the oldest two are 7 this year) they are winning on the line and in the dressage arena. The two younger ones destined for Eventing haven't started yet, as they're 4 and 2.

No, we're not at the Pan Ams, but that's not my goal. My goal is a sane, sound sporthorse for the Amateur to raise and self-train; who can be competitive on a regional level. So far, that's absolutely happening.

Do indescriminate crosses win? Even then, sometimes. It that what those of us on THIS THREAD are doing? Absolutely not.

A good horse is a good horse. And when you strive to breed good horses to each other, type-to-type, the outcome is usually... a good horse.

STF

Jul. 27, 2007, 12:38 PM

A good horse is a good horse. And when you strive to breed good horses to each other, type-to-type, the outcome is usually... a good horse

Thats my point!
Breeders and owners have to go with what is the easiest to them and if they like the AWS, RPSI, SWANA, AHS, etc, etc - then so be it. Its a personal choice. This registry stuff is turning out like the relgion fights in the mid century! LOL
Cool your jets everyone, really.
Kathy S, back off on Stacey, wil ya. She has an opinion too, no need to start a fight.
The overall bitterness between you and Siegi has been on gonig for years and that too. LET IT BE! Everytime you get a chance you start a fight with Siegi. Enough!!!
************************************************** ******
Cant anyone just be happy for one another and just be thankful they had a healthy foal and a healthy mare at the end of each year. Do yall realize how mnay people lose precious foals and mares each year. There is more to this than just a freakin peice of paper.
Most breeders I know, breed a bloodline they belive in and work with the registry that they have the most faith in and that has treated them well. THAT is the whole goal. A registry that supports your efforts and give something in return for all your time/money.
Its BLOODLINES people, BLOODLINES - not registry anymore. Breed the bloodlines, not the registry.

Now, Im going to go brew another pot of coffee........

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 27, 2007, 12:57 PM

It is sad, because in reality, we are a LOT more alike than different. Probably we would find that many people posting anger at each other are a lot more alike than some of their closest friends. If we would all just respect each others choices, and find a way to work WITH each other, we just may be able to make a huge difference.

sporthorsefilly

Jul. 27, 2007, 01:11 PM

siegi b.

Jul. 27, 2007, 01:14 PM

STF - you just had to be the voice of reason, didn't you? :-)
Ok, so I need to remember that "ignore" button....

http://www.americanwarmblood.com/background.php
http://www.zangersheide.com/en/
http://www.americanwarmblood.org/

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 27, 2007, 01:40 PM

The AWS is educating people about making better choices for riding and breeding. It was within the last 10 years that the Dutch were inspecting mares without ANY pedigree for the Aux Studbook. Were they tough? Yes, for their "type", but without knowing where the nice horse "came from", no way of knowing what would crop up in the offspring.

Using the AWS to register horses that may not be of more traditional Warmblood lines is just serving a purpose. I think much of the hostility is just about the word "Warmblood". It is really a shame to be so angry about the use of a word, and whether a registry is "allowed" to use it.

Can the AWS horses compete with the Warmbloods registered in a European Registry? Yes. Definitely. Here is an AWS mare that is scoring high 60s (67 & 68%) in California at Recognized dressage shows in Tr 3 & 4. She qualified her young rider for the Jr/Young Rider Championships within her very first 2 shows, winning her Tr 1, 3 & 4 tests. She was 4 years and one month old. This mare was Champion of her AWS foal inspection. Her bloodlines are Dutch/TB/QH. She is not a fluke. She has a wonderful moving full little sister too. :yes:

tri

Jul. 27, 2007, 02:10 PM

I think we are starting to see a time where more and more euro wb registries accepting more and more QH blood. The BWP has a fully approved stallion with QH blood, both the Old na and the Old verband have mares in the main books with QH blood and the cross is becoming very popular.

Remember, the euro registries said they would rather drop dead than accept hunter types once upon a time - I actually have one of the registry heads saying that to me on tape - but now look what they have done. Money talks and those crosses are doing very well.

STf, if you are speaking of me, I don't start the fights and I'm tired of siegi's constant personal attacks on just about every thread I participate on. Siegi you aren't going to run me off, no matter how bad you make yourself look. Knock it off.

grayfox

Jul. 27, 2007, 04:22 PM

If you just want to go for you great. I'm not knocking the registry but I'm not sure how much value it will add to your horses.

siegi b.

Jul. 27, 2007, 05:49 PM

tri - you're my idol! :-) :-)
I think everybody should join you in your efforts to heave-ho all the pseudo-boutique-quasi European registries.
There, are you happy now? :-)

siegi b.

Jul. 27, 2007, 05:55 PM

tempichange

Jul. 27, 2007, 05:58 PM

No, we're not at the Pan Ams, but that's not my goal. My goal is a sane, sound sporthorse for the Amateur to raise and self-train; who can be competitive on a regional level. So far, that's absolutely happening.

Do indescriminate crosses win? Even then, sometimes. It that what those of us on THIS THREAD are doing? Absolutely not.

A good horse is a good horse. And when you strive to breed good horses to each other, type-to-type, the outcome is usually... a good horse.

But the difference is this: consistancy. Do you occasionally get prolific individuals? yes, however the goal of a verband, or any program is consistancy. Verbands select individuals, who will consistantly contribute to the type of horse they wish to see in 10 or 11 years down the road.

The thing is though, why be good when you can aim for great? And that's what the verbands are doing, consistantly producing horses that can compete at a range of levels for a range of people.

shaft0463

Jul. 27, 2007, 06:50 PM

I would rather see one that is developed using whatever is decided by an Elected board of American breeders, riders, trainers, judges, (a few of each of those from each discipline) and vets.

Well, then why don't we do it? Anyone got the bandwidth (as far as time constraints go?) I'm game to do whatever I can help with. I'm not very knowledgable about breeding, but I'm a project manager in real life so I do have SOME skills.:lol:

ive got more time on my hands than i know what to do with (disability will do that to ya), but no real contacts.

i, for one, plan to register my half-lusitano foal AWS (unless its clear i will have a gelding, then there is no point). do i think they are WB's? not really, but AWS encourages performance in the sporthorse disciplines. its a registry of sporthorses that happens to use the name WB. i dont know why people think they have NO goal, when it clearly states the requirements for registration or approval for breeding; "do one of these things, which are spelled out very clearly on the website, and we will consider your horse to be of enough quality for breeding". if you read the criteria, its obvious what the goal is: a horse who can do dressage, eventing, jumpers, or combined driving sucessfully.

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 27, 2007, 06:54 PM

I honestly don't think there will be any serious European warmblood registries accepting quarterhorses in their studbooks. Talk about dissimilar types!! Why can't some folks accept the fact that QHs were bred for something other than dressage or jumping?

So somebody managed to sneak in a part QH in the past... I wouldn't exactly come to the conclusion that this will be a trend.

They have been bred for many decades AND many generations for other disciplines, with a lot of them being race bred.

Some are very dissimilar, but one of the top sires of Dressage horses in this country is Gold Luck, and that big QHy butt on him, is, well, a QH butt. :winkgrin: Power for sittin'. :yes:

tempichange

Jul. 27, 2007, 07:28 PM

ive got more time on my hands than i know what to do with (disability will do that to ya), but no real contacts.

i, for one, plan to register my half-lusitano foal AWS (unless its clear i will have a gelding, then there is no point). do i think they are WB's? not really, but AWS encourages performance in the sporthorse disciplines. its a registry of sporthorses that happens to use the name WB. i dont know why people think they have NO goal, when it clearly states the requirements for registration or approval for breeding; "do one of these things, which are spelled out very clearly on the website, and we will consider your horse to be of enough quality for breeding". if you read the criteria, its obvious what the goal is: a horse who can do dressage, eventing, jumpers, or combined driving sucessfully.

There is a difference between walking and talking. What AWS does, in my opinion is put on a showy front there is no real hard, consistent evidence of meeting their goal. Yes, as I have stated (multiple times even) they do have individuals, however the group, in general does not.

They don't have a plan and if they do, they aren't following it very well.

~Freedom~

Jul. 27, 2007, 07:42 PM

They don't have a plan and if they do, they aren't following it very well.

AWS-Does not pass parrot mouthed horses
Euro registries do.

shaft0463

Jul. 27, 2007, 08:09 PM

They don't have a plan and if they do, they aren't following it very well.

then what is this: http://www.americanwarmblood.org/approval/index.htm

does this not give a clue as to what their mission is: http://www.americanwarmblood.org/ scroll to the bottom of the page and click on "what is a WB?"

have you spoken with anyone at AWS in regards to what their plan is and how they are following it?

carolprudm

Jul. 27, 2007, 09:12 PM

I have a half Connemara mare, daughter and full sister to ACPS year end award winners. I am thinking of breeding her to Triple Twist, a TB. I think the foal will be an awesome eventer....and AFAIK the AWS is the only registry that will even LOOK at the foal.

tempichange

Jul. 27, 2007, 10:07 PM

then what is this: http://www.americanwarmblood.org/approval/index.htm

does this not give a clue as to what their mission is: http://www.americanwarmblood.org/ scroll to the bottom of the page and click on "what is a WB?"

have you spoken with anyone at AWS in regards to what their plan is and how they are following it?

I was a member of AWS and AWR for three years. I registered my welsh mare with AWR (under ASPR), but subsequently, chose her to be known as her initial breed- welsh. I'll support the books when they get serious about developing a program, just as I'll support the welsh people when they decide to stop paper trading.

And just because they post it, doesn't mean they follow it or believe in it (ie: don't believe everything you read). IMHO, inspection standards are too loose for what blood is out there today. If they wanted a serious competitor at the top of the game, they would have gotten their acts together long ago.

shaft0463

Jul. 27, 2007, 10:44 PM

I was a member of AWS and AWR for three years. I registered my welsh mare with AWR (under ASPR), but subsequently, chose her to be known as her initial breed- welsh. I'll support the books when they get serious about developing a program, just as I'll support the welsh people when they decide to stop paper trading.

And just because they post it, doesn't mean they follow it or believe in it (ie: don't believe everything you read). IMHO, inspection standards are too loose for what blood is out there today. If they wanted a serious competitor at the top of the game, they would have gotten their acts together long ago.

that sounds like a "no" to me.

i dont know much at all about european lines, because frankly, they really dont interest me because of the snobbery surrounding them. if it wouldnt be horribly rude of me, i would probably smack half the people ive met who have pretentiously said "oh, we imported him from ____". but looking at the AWS approved for breeding list, these are the names i do recognize.

*ART DECO
BALTA' CZAR
*BLONDER HANS
*DONNERLUCK
*DONNERMEYER
FEUERTANZER
FORTUNE HUNTER
*FUERST GOTTHARD
FUERST GRAYHEART R
HADRIAN
HALL OF FAME
HIDEAWAY'S ERIN GO BRAGH
*IRONMAN
*LANCASTER
LANDAVI
*LANDKONIG
MARQUEE
MATISSE
NAVARRE
NEVADA
*POWER PLAY
*PUERTO D'AZUR
RACHMANINOV
RAVEL
SALTO
SPARLOCK
SPECTRUM
SYNCHRONICITY
WELT MARKE

if AWS is such a waste and leaves such a bad impression, then why would some of these big names have bothered registering with them?

siegi b.

Jul. 27, 2007, 11:19 PM

shaft0463 - when you get right down to it.... there aren't that many big names on that list.

shaft0463

Jul. 28, 2007, 12:40 AM

shaft0463 - when you get right down to it.... there aren't that many big names on that list.

that doesnt answer the question, which was, if AWS is a waste of time and so detrimental to a breeder's program, then why would any of those horses be on the list?

my point is, its a registry. if you dont like it, dont be a part of it. those who have chosen to be a part of it obviously see some value in it. some of them happen to own some nice stallions, and apparently they want to make those stallions more available to the mare owners whose mares are not TB or WB. why is it necessary to tear that to shreds?

no one is forcing yall who hate AWS to have any part of it. its your option to support your european registries, just like its my option to prefer something thats NOT european WB or TB.

Black Forest

Jul. 28, 2007, 04:04 AM

AWS-Does not pass parrot mouthed horses
Euro registries do.

They are not supposed to! parrot mouth is a fault and at least in stallions should stop them even getting as far as the approval as they'd flunk the veterinary inspection.

And AWS would approve any stallion or mare that fulfills one of their approval criteria such as 63% at a third level Dressage test would they not?

That's what it states on their website. Whilst 63% at third level is ok I don't see how that would make sure the horse has no serious conformation flaws that would normally disqualify it from breeding.

And then we have AWR approving stallions by e-mail apparently......

~Freedom~

Jul. 28, 2007, 08:13 AM

And AWS would approve any stallion or mare that fulfills one of their approval criteria such as 63% at a third level Dressage test would they not?

That's what it states on their website. Whilst 63% at third level is ok I don't see how that would make sure the horse has no serious conformation flaws that would normally disqualify it from breeding.

For performance..yes :yes:
Breeding..No :no:

Euro registries have parrot mouthed stallions approved under full hand inspections.

tempichange

Jul. 28, 2007, 08:20 AM

that doesnt answer the question, which was, if AWS is a waste of time and so detrimental to a breeder's program, then why would any of those horses be on the list?

Because most of those stallions were pre-approved somewhere else. They took their 100 or 30 day test with another verband. The breeder (or the AWS themselves) had approved most of those stallions after they obtained their scores from their parent verband. But most of those horses you listed are more affliated with their parent verband book than AWS.

I figure (in my guessing), most people join the AWS or AWR because they couldn't get the mare registered with whatever verband (quality or breed wise) or they became involved because they could easily identified with it and now are stuck producing those babies which aren't approvable by other verbands.

my point is, its a registry. if you dont like it, dont be a part of it. those who have chosen to be a part of it obviously see some value in it. some of them happen to own some nice stallions, and apparently they want to make those stallions more available to the mare owners whose mares are not TB or WB. why is it necessary to tear that to shreds?

There is a difference between a registry and a verband. And they are presenting themselves as a qualified verband, and personally to me, it's mislabled marketing. If they want to be an open registry, go right ahead, register everything that has four legs and neighs (or brays). But don't call it warmblood and don't call it honest.

Verbands should not accept everything that has four legs, that's not the purpose of it, nor is the purpose of 99 percent of warmblood breeders out there. Most people see a value in it because they can't register the resulting offspring with their paticular registry (such as AQHA's Appendix book or Jockey Club). Most people value it because it's just another way to market the horse that would otherwise not fetch a good price.

no one is forcing yall who hate AWS to have any part of it. its your option to support your european registries, just like its my option to prefer something thats NOT european WB or TB.

Oh please. I don't hate AWS or AWR. I just find it incredibly funny that in 20 or so years, they haven't accomplished (prolifically speaking) what they set out to do.

I support my amercian verband (GOV) because I like their program (and guess what-- the mare is an arabian!). Will there be politics in every horse thing? yes, however, I respect their mission and what they have accomplished so far.

Black Forest

Jul. 28, 2007, 08:30 AM

I think we are just getting back to the age-old "Sporthorse" // "Warmblood" thing again.

Personally I do not value one higher than the other nor do I hold one in higher esteem. One of my very best horses was a 3/4 TB 1/4 something Irish - he was fab!! Would I have called him a Warmblood? No of course not, wouldn't have dreamed of it because that simply isn't what he was. He was a Sporthorse.

Everything I see on the AWS website and information screams "We are a Sporthorse Breeding Organisation" with Sporthorse goals and Sporthorse Criteria.

So why not name it what it essentially *IS* - American Sporthorse.

There is nothing what-so-ever WRONG with the designation "Sporthorse" - why insist on calling super Sporthorses "Warmbloods" ?

You don't see the Irish Sporthorse people calling their Sporthorses "Warmbloods" (well at least over here in Europe you don't) and just LOOK what they are achieving by using various bloodlines from TB to ID to Warmblood to create a sporthorse that is what they want.

And they don't need to "borrow" a designation to be taken seriously in the world of breeding and sport.....

If there was the "American Warmblood and Sporthorse" Organisation which registered everything in their respective books (Sporthorses in their books, WBs in theirs) - as we have discussed before - the whole discussion would almost certainly come to an end and the whole enterprise would gain and hold a hell of a lot more credibility.....

~Freedom~

Jul. 28, 2007, 08:40 AM

If there was the "American Warmblood and Sporthorse" Organisation which registered everything in their respective books (Sporthorses in their books, WBs in theirs) - as we have discussed before - the whole discussion would almost certainly come to an end and the whole enterprise would gain and hold a hell of a lot more credibility.....

Agree..but what criteria though?

ie WB crosses/full WB non WB

Black Forest

Jul. 28, 2007, 08:51 AM

Agree..but what criteria though?

ie WB crosses/full WB non WB

urm - simple - anything that is not fully 4 generations of only WB or WB approved TB / Arab whatever goes in the Sporthorse section ...

Sporthorse can pick whatever approved blood they like to create the particular type of Sporthorse that is desired / conform with the breeding goals.

~Freedom~

Jul. 28, 2007, 09:15 AM

urm - simple - anything that is not fully 4 generations of only WB or WB approved TB / Arab whatever goes in the Sporthorse section ...

Just call it European then.

Black Forest

Jul. 28, 2007, 09:19 AM

Just call it European then.

No - WHY?

There are so many american bred Warmbloods.... ?

Re the Sporthorses - I stumbled across this site the other day, they stand a cremello stallion who appears to be Quarterhorse, of Sporthorse type, and is siring offspring that also appear to be very sporty (I adore the buckskin in the first picture)

That sort of programme would be a prime candidate for a Sporthorse book - the stallion is approved AWR http://www.moonrocksporthorses.com/gallery2.html

STF

Jul. 28, 2007, 10:40 AM

Do any of your realize that only about 1/4 of the horse owners are breeders?? IF THAT?? Maybe even less %. Its mostly breeders who are very, ummmmm...... Eclectic about their registry choice, lets say.
Most of the riders I know could give a rats ass about the registry, just as long as the horse has papers and they can get awards.

I use to be a huge registry snob. But reality hit me a few yrs ago when I was looking for a replacement for my beloved Lance. All of a sudden I did not care about the registry, I just wanted to find the "RIGHT HORSE" for me.

Its about breeding quality, brians and talent in the long run. People buy those things in the long run.

Edited to add an exception - but breed stock is a bit different due to registry rules and such as many of them dont recongize some of the other regsitries. Im talking about riding horses in the original post

shaft0463

Jul. 28, 2007, 01:06 PM

there actually is an american sporthorse registry. they do inspections by video. they are also very small, and i had never heard of them before i started doing internet searches on getting some kind of papers for my mare. i chose not to register with them because a) i had never heard of them and b) i couldnt for the life of me understand their instructions on taking the video and c) i dont feel that a video is a suitable way to inspect a horse, as you can edit to your hearts desire and retake over and over.

i personally dont mind the idea of a "warmblood and sporthorse" registry except for one thing: there is so much pretentiousness surrounding owning a WB that the sporthorse book would be seen as "lesser quality" when in fact it is just DIFFERENT. ive met so many people who are so snooty about their horse being registered with such-and-such WB registry, or imported from wherever, that it has turned me off, possibly permanently, to ever wanting to own or really even deal with people who are big into WB's. i dont like that ive had a bad enough experience to leave that negative taste in my mouth, and im sure there are breed snobs in many breeds (ive known some stuck-up arab people too, as well as the TB people around here who, even though their OTTB is always lame, as was the one before that, they would never DREAM of owning anything but a TB).

a nice horse is a nice horse, regardless of its breeding. look at Teddy the pony. most of the breed-snob people would look at that cross and go "why?", but hes competing and winning at the top of his sport. or the show jumping stallion novilheiro, a lusitano trained to GP dressage and then competed sucessfully in GP jumping by john whitaker. both lovely sporthorses, but are they really any "less" because they are not european WB?

STF

Jul. 28, 2007, 01:18 PM

Again, people buy what can do the job they need and what they can affrod :) Afford being the bigger driver in the equation.

Black Forest

Jul. 28, 2007, 01:31 PM

there is so much pretentiousness surrounding owning a WB that the sporthorse book would be seen as "lesser quality" when in fact it is just DIFFERENT. ive met so many people who are so snooty about their horse being registered with such-and-such WB registry, or imported from wherever,

See, that's the funny thing - here it's almost "Oh you got "just" a WB .... nothing special then" because they almost all are.... Here you need to come round the corner on a QH or a Lusitano or something equally "exotic" before anyone takes much notice. WBs are just the "normal horses" here.

but are they really any "less" because they are not european WB?

No of course not, in fact Teddy is by a LOOONG way my favourite "famous equine" at the moment. Those who roll their eyes at all sorts of horses being called a Warmblood generally don't do so because they think a WB is any "better" - I certainly don't.

shaft0463

Jul. 28, 2007, 01:47 PM

See, that's the funny thing - here it's almost "Oh you got "just" a WB .... nothing special then" because they almost all are.... Here you need to come round the corner on a QH or a Lusitano or something equally "exotic" before anyone takes much notice. WBs are just the "normal horses" here.

maybe i need to move over there then to get away from some of the crazy WB and other breed-snob people :lol:

No of course not, in fact Teddy is by a LOOONG way my favourite "famous equine" at the moment. Those who roll their eyes at all sorts of horses being called a Warmblood generally don't do so because they think a WB is any "better" - I certainly don't.

its a shame that people think anyone who registers with AWS or AWR automatically assumes their QH cross is suddenly a WB. i will still refer to my mare as a mutt because i dont for sure know her breeding. but where else do you go to register a sporthorse of unknown breeding just so she can be easily tracked in the future? there really is no other option.

until there is one, those of us who have happened upon horses whose papers were lost long ago, but are still nice sporthorses, are going to continue being looked down upon for registering our horses AWS.

Black Forest

Jul. 28, 2007, 04:12 PM

i will still refer to my mare as a mutt because i dont for sure know her breeding. but where else do you go to register a sporthorse of unknown breeding just so she can be easily tracked in the future? there really is no other option.

until there is one, those of us who have happened upon horses whose papers were lost long ago, but are still nice sporthorses, are going to continue being looked down upon for registering our horses AWS.

You see that is what the Europeans have the passport system for, and the Germans (for example) the FN. Any horse that competes is registered with the germany FN (HAS to be) and the number is the passport number and it's for life.

The FN runs a database that records what every registered horse has won in any discipline, ready available, assigns the winnings of offspring to the correct sire, and runs the scheme that pays a part of all pricemoney to the breeders of the horses. So any breeder who has ever bred a successful horse gets a cheque at the end of each year which is based on what the horses they have bred have won....

And that is NOT just for WBs but for anything equine really, the system supports the riders, the shows, the owners, and the breeders.

shaft0463

Jul. 28, 2007, 10:13 PM

You see that is what the Europeans have the passport system for, and the Germans (for example) the FN. Any horse that competes is registered with the germany FN (HAS to be) and the number is the passport number and it's for life.

The FN runs a database that records what every registered horse has won in any discipline, ready available, assigns the winnings of offspring to the correct sire, and runs the scheme that pays a part of all pricemoney to the breeders of the horses. So any breeder who has ever bred a successful horse gets a cheque at the end of each year which is based on what the horses they have bred have won....

And that is NOT just for WBs but for anything equine really, the system supports the riders, the shows, the owners, and the breeders.

here, the USDF number is separate from the USEF number, and thats just dressage and eventing. i dont know if the USEF number covers any other disciplines (hunters/jumpers, driving, etc). and with the possibility of showing a registered horse under a different name, its no wonder its so easy to lose track of a horse or to have no idea of a horse's history. and there is NO way to track schooling shows at all, only recognized. i would like to event my mare at some point (post-baby of course), and it just gets too complicated to me, if i were to ever sell my foal, for a future owner to track down info on an unregistered dam. and while i may not show a lot, i do think its important for both parents to have some paper trail.