Does anyone know a horse that did HB showing and went on further?

[Silver Bells]

There is always so much talk that horses that show "on the line" in HB shows never do anything other than that... I say that's a crock!

With all the people out there, I bet we can come up with many names of some really nice horses that started their career in the HB ring.
I am sure going to try and make it happen with my bunch, so is Cindi, and others we know. Cindi's bay gelding Hat's Off won everything as a yearling, two, and three year old. He currently shows under saddle, and is getting ready to make his debut in the baby green hunter division. He has a fabulous jump.

There must be many more.....:confused:

[Windswept Stable]

I dont know a thing about HB for horses...but as far as the pony breeding ring-- I would say it can go either way. Some of the winners in the PB ring--are never heard of again--and then probably as many go on to be big winners in the performance ring. I would say there are probably more big winners that never set foot in the pony breeding ring --but it just is because not everyone that breeds or buys young--has the desire or funds to promote on the line. Some ponies just fall into the right hands, get great training and go on to be stars. Others never get the chance.

[desilu]

SB - that will be some fascinating research. I'd like to know how many go on to do the ammy stuff that doesn't get the big points.............can't wait to see the article.

[PineTreeFarm]

SB
Some years ago I had done some research on this. I will try and find it for you.
I was able to find some that went on to performance careers.

LaurieP should be able to help you.

[CuriosoJorge]

Dream On
Country Rose
Zealous
Rocky Rules
Simply Lucus
Second Edition

IHF competitors who may or may not have stood on the line as babies:
Mandrake
Dare County
Absolut Mocha

[Silver Bells]

SB
Some years ago I had done some research on this. I will try and find it for you.
I was able to find some that went on to performance careers.

LaurieP should be able to help you.

Thanks PTF, any help would be great. I know there are many out there, we just have to think about it.

Feel free to email me pictures, stories, or just names. :)

[Galileo1998]

We don't have specific "hunter breeding" classes up here in Canada but Popeye K was shown on the line a bit and won the most prestigious line class in Canada as a three year old.

[florida foxhunter]

Claim to Fame did very well as a two year old (in Florida we didn't have many shows then and I didn't want to travel so far with him as a yearling).......including his big win at Devon........

Of course, he's gone on to win many championships in the professional divisions, and then with me, as an amateur! He's now breeding, but still a wonderful riding/show horse for me <smile>

I do think you have to be careful not to over feed those youngsters to get them so shiny and fat which could cause bone problems......sort of a catch 22......in the Hunter Breeding they want them sooo fat, and yet, most good horsemen (Especially the German Breeders) will tell you a yearling should NOT be over fed, an they prefer to see a lanky youngster with even ribs barely showing..

[Fairview Horse Center]

I believe A Fine Romance did very well on the line, and then also later under saddle.

[TQ]

January's Best was undefeated on the line and when he moved into the performance divisions he was circuit champion in Indio and Palm Beach, champion at Devon, the Garden and Washington.

Just The Best and More Than Luck both won on the line before they started their performance careers. They were both champions in the 4' hunters and More Than Luck also did very well in the jumpers.

[futurewin]

All my youngsters that were shown on the line went on to be performance horses. That is what they were bred for, not just their good looks. Presto, my Oldenburg gelding sired by Parabol was shown on the line and won many end of year championships for USEF Zone 3 and PHR/Silver Stirrup and MHSA. He is now debuting with my trainer in the Pre-Greens and myself. I owned a gelding who won everything on the line as a 3 year old named Fuerst Glance sired by Fuerst Gotthard. He is now showing in Southern MD with his Amateur Owner.

My other horses are doing exceptional well undersaddle. I like the HB as it is a good stepping stone in getting the youngsters exposed and out there to be seen. It is good for their brains.

[Rubs Not Pats]

My mare, In The Czone (Alla' Czar- Ballad Maker (Truce Maker (TB)) stood on the line for three years, capping her career with wins at IHF (and reserve BYH), USEF Reserve National Champ HB, Zone 8 Champion HB, PHR National Champion HB and DSHB Horse, Reserve Champion Region DSHB horse and 5th National USDF DSHB Horse (I think her median was 79.5).

She has won numerous championships in the children's hunters as a 4 and 5 year old (including back to back wins at the Zone Championships) and this year, at 6, moved into the Large Junior Hunters where she was circuit champion in HITS Tucson.

The best part is that she was born in my backyard and travelled with little amatuer me to many of the shows. As a 5 year old, she she started teaching me how to jump again after a 16 year vacation from riding!

For a picture, you can go to Darkhorse Farms website or see the spiring Show Circuit Magazine where she had a half page picture with the article about HITS Winter Circuit recap.

[Silver Bells]

This is great and it will help put that rumor to bed, that HB horses never do more than look pretty as youngsters. :yes:

TQ~ January's Best is one of my all time favorites. I never knew he showed on the line. I remember watching him with Peter Pletcher doing the first year green division at Devon. He was pretty amazing! :D

DeNiro also won as a two and three year old. He was successfully campaigned in the pre-greens and is winning all over Zone 2 in the children's hunter division.

[futurewin]

I love getting the youngsters out there and showing on the line. I had the best time when I was back in MD and showing. I really miss it. There is no HB classes her in KY except the INF finals in Sept. which I have a youngster nominated but I would have liked to have gotten him out there previously.

[crestline]

Just a thought...of course there are some great horses that do well on the line and then go on to be brilliant and I think it's great to have a list of them...and their breeding...I think the dilemma is the horses that are brilliant on the line and then are pathetic over fences, or horrid to work with once they get to that part of their career where they are under saddle and expected to have a job. Unfortunately I'm sure we can all think of a bunch of those too...hopefully less of those than the other type :D

Sadly for us in PNW there is no longer hunter breeding anywhere in sight (I think 16-20 hours to the closest class) so our horses will have to wait and prove themselves under saddle only...even if they are fancy enough to show on the line. It's a bummer...

I personally would love to see the judging follow the DB route where they expect the youngsters to look leaner...it would be so much healthier and I think would make Silver Bells list of performers much longer.

[Silver Bells]

Just a thought...of course there are some great horses that do well on the line and then go on to be brilliant and I think it's great to have a list of them...and their breeding...I think the dilemma is the horses that are brilliant on the line and then are pathetic over fences, or horrid to work with once they get to that part of their career where they are under saddle and expected to have a job. Unfortunately I'm sure we can all think of a bunch of those too...hopefully less of those than the other type :D

I personally would love to see the judging follow the DB route where they expect the youngsters to look leaner...it would be so much healthier and I think would make Silver Bells list of performers much longer.

Good Point! Personally, I do not advocate the "pig fat look" in young horses. It is not healthy in us, so how could we expect it to be healthy for our horses. Some youngsters are also easier "keepers" than others.

BTW... slightly off topic but.... Angela you sure have a very nice crop of 2007 babies. Congrats on the new addition to your own family as well. :D

[ASB Stars]

You know, in a perfect world, you would want to believe that every horse that wins in hand would win in performance- right?

Because, of course, the conformation and movement standards should be designed to select the best athletes- right?

Sadly, not in hunters, and not in American Saddlebred show horses, either.

I am not saying that there are not some horses who DO go on- but, it has to make you wonder- why not a much more significant percentage?

Maybe it is time for all of these standards to be reviewed, and adjusted, for seeking ATHLETES- and not just who can win the beauty contest.

Now, as an aside, I have seen the horses that Kenny Wheeler shows rather routinely go on to be nice conformation horses, etc.

But then, he IS KW... :winkgrin:

[rideagoldenpony]

Seems to me....... (little ol' me who has never even SEEN a HB class, since I live in the sticks in the PNW)..... that there is a chasm between the numbers of horses that show in HB and go on to performance BUT BUT BUT..... there is also a HUGE gulf in how much time/money/preparation/training it takes to show a youngster on the line, vs how much time/money/preparation/training it takes to show a horse under saddle -- and to get it to the point where it is ready to show u/s. I think that just by the very virtue of the fact that it is so expensive and time consuming, that there are going to be less animals given the opportunity to go on to under saddle competition because of their OWNERS, more than because of their talent/lack of talent.

Bottom line (as I see it) is that there are lots of youngsters that are never given the chance to excel in the u/s side of things because of their owners, rather than their own quality/talent/breeding/etc.

Two cents worth from the peanut gallery.

[Silver Bells]

Bottom line (as I see it) is that there are lots of youngsters that are never given the chance to excel in the u/s side of things because of their owners, rather than their own quality/talent/breeding/etc.

How true and a very important factor to be considered. The costs of showing in the hunter performance triple the costs of showing a young horse in HB classes. :eek: I always say that I could show three youngsters for what it costs me to do the A/O's etc.

[HunterBreedingJunkie]

My horse Gold Fish was extremely successful on the line and now has gone on to the adult ring with me. He was reserve champion at his first A show a couple of weeks ago.

I think people are so quick to suggest that line horses never go on. The truth is it takes a lot to get a horse from the line at three to a showing career. In my case and probably many others, my horse grew to be 17.2 hands (I thought he would top out at 16.2 or 16.3, ha, ha). I waited to really start him until he was four and then I let him do the little jumps on the local circuit. Now at six years old, I am starting to take him out. He will now go on to the pre-greens and continue to do the adults and then the A/O's with me. I didn't want this horse rushed because he was so important to me and he was my dream horse.

Silver Bells, I am so sick of people saying this also. If you want me to help you to chronicle a history of this I would love to take the lead on that. Hunter breeding horses are awesome and if they are brought along by the right people they go on to be shining examples of what good breeding can do.

[Silver Bells]

There has to be more!!! :eek:
HBJ... any help would be greatly appreciated. It would be great to start compiling pictures showing on the line and performing in later years.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I am sure there are lots more, but with owner changes, name changes, and no tracking...

[PineTreeFarm]

From the 1999 3yr USEF HB list

Opus K Borden
Showed up to GP Dressage, lots of results for DHSB

From the 1999 Yearling USEF HB List

Mont Blanc A Tarrant 2004-2005 Pre Green Hunter, Adult Amateur Hunter
Mostly shown on Florida circuit, winning or very competitive in classes with more than 50 entries.

GP's Krugerrand Symmetry Ranch Has been discussed on this forum, results for Hunter and Dressage.

Nokomis The Oaks Showed up to GP Jumper

None of the above horses led their age group in HB classes and only one had a subsequent career as a Hunter BUT they do go on to performance careers.

The above was old research that I think was done in late 2005. I'd bet if I looked at the 2000,2001 HB results I'd find some more.

[Giddy-up]

I am sure there are lots more, but with owner changes, name changes, and no tracking...

That's what I was going to suggest--name changes is where you probably lose track of a lot of them.

[omare]

Does anyone know where Intuition (Special Memories-Nadia) has gone? She was beautiful and floated at the trot .She was Reserve Champion 3 year old nationally and reserve champ best young horse at Devon...but she has disappeared, perhaps under a new name? She would be around 6 years old I think. Thanks!

[Samotis]

We have had a few at our barn. Schoman was just retired, but he showed on the line and was very successful in the A/O's and A/A's. Absolut Mocha showed on the line and also is showing now. We also have another Schoenfelder that is showing well in the A/A hunters. He just got 2nd in the A/A classic at the Oaks in fact!:)

[CuriosoJorge]

I don't actually believe that Absolut Mocha showed on the line, but he did win the 2 year old under saddle at the IHF finals, and then went on to be 7th in the country in the green conformation one year.

[au_panda]

I have 2 that were successful in HB. They were also successful at the West Coast IHF regional. As to ongoing controversies about the IHF starting them too young and the successful HB horses never heard from again, I can only say this for now. My guys are only 4 and 5. Neither will do more than 3 shows this year because they already do flying changes, jump anything put in front of them (including liverpools) and put in smooth trips over courses at 3'. This spring, one successfully carried me around the AA hunters at an A show, the other was a Hunter division champion at an A show with John French. Until they can jump bigger fences, I'm concerned about boring them both to death:lol:. So, I hope to report their performance careers, .......next year.

[Tackpud]

Gold Rush - high score AHSA as a 2-year old - went on to many wins as a Large Junior.

And his full brother, Golden Opportunity - high score AHSA as a 3-year old - went on to compete sucessfully in the Green Conformation division.

[clearound]

SB - Although he did not go on to be a hunter due to his powerful jump, Royal Rebel was USEF Reserve Champion as a two year old and went onto be a very successful grand prix jumper before being retired. Royal Red Chief also was successful on the line and did very well with Aaron Vale in the grand prixs. I also believe that Royal Flirt was USEF Horse of the Year as a yearling and was a successful hunter before being a broodmare. I do have a picture somewhere of Rebel standing on the line but here is a pic of him in the jumpers.

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2010833590055984573bxMMKU

[fish]

I think there was a thread on this topic some time last year, maybe in the H/J forum, but haven't been able to figure out how to find it. If I remember correctly, a people remembered a great many breed show horses who went on to successful performance careers-- the unfortunate Streetwise (who showed the the line under a different name) being among them.

This is one of the many topics which seems to come up frequently and seems to scream out our need for a reliable database based upon one horse/one number every time it comes up.

If I'm not mistaken, many of the progeny of the great Warioto mare, Bicoastal, showed successfully both on the line and in the hunter ring, The Wizard, Mandrake, Ace in the Hole, being among them. Unfortunately, I have no way of substantiating/documenting this impression. It would be SO nice to have the luxury of a place to look things up!

Sure would be nice to know, too, what happened to the progeny of Sir Thompson (e.g Tryon Tom) and Gold Apollo, who were so successful on the line 15 years ago. It's interesting to see these names cropping up in the pedigrees of horses doing well on the line now for Nokomis Farm, Symmetry Ranch, etc., but where's the performance component? How DO these beauty contest winners perform down the line? With conformation hunters like Popeye K and Cunningham winning both model and perfomance classes pretty convincingly, it's hard to believe that there's no relationship between winning conformation and performance, but without life long tracking, it's impossible to demonstrate with any degree of certainty.

Wouldn't it be interesting if we DID have the data and it showed a negative correlation between what wins on the line and what performs? If that were the case, it seems to me that a re-examination of how we judge conformation would be in order so the breed shows would become better predictors of longevity and talent.

As a bit of a sidelight: watching Popeye K show makes me wonder about the controversial issue of weight/soundness. Right now, we have studies all over the place saying that overweight is unhealthy and detrimental to soundness, but that "tank" of an "easy keeper," keeps showing week after week over 4' fences, while consistently winning the models with his perfectly clean legs and balanced proportions (not to mention the smoothness provided by some fat?). Do his balance, etc., compensate for the weight? Does the weight in some way help build bone-- or is this horse just a freak in an arena where leaner horses, on a statistical basis, do better and last longer despite the fact that the fatter horses seem to pin higher in the model? I know studies of G.P. dressage horses have somewhat altered perceptions of what is desireable (e.g., studies found that horses with shorter necks perform better than those with long ones), and wonder what a scientific look at hunters might find.

[HunterBreedingJunkie]

Silver Bells -- I thought of another one. My horse Gold Fish has a full brother that showed on the line. He was champ at IHF as a yearling and as a four year old and has gone on to be very successful at the first and second years and as a A/O hunter. His name was Gibson and I could give you more info if you want.

[PineTreeFarm]

Two more:
Ovation L Quinn USEF 3yr old HB 2000 (3rd in nation) went on to a career as a Green Conformation Hunter 2002-2003. Later showed as a Junior Hunter

Wallstreet Week A Berry USEF 3 yrd Old HB 1999 (5th in nation) Showed as a Regular Conformation Hunter 2003 and then as an A/O Hunter

Fish - all the above info and what I posted earlier is available from the USEF website. While it doesn't go back as far as needed, all performance and HB division standings starting from 1999 are on line and horse results reports are available on line starting with 2002. So it is possible to gather data starting from 1999 and work forward to track correlation BUT the records that I'm finding are almost all for horses that had the same ownership during their HB and peformance careers. So if there was an ownership or name change then I'm thinking their records are lost.

[Rubs Not Pats]

Food for thought. Most line horses were recorded very young in their life, so the owner/breeder most likely would list some sort of breeding, this would follow through a name and owner change (but not a completely new re-recording). Personally, I know that most stallion owners follow results of their babies because it enables them to market their stallions more effectively. If you can determine the breeding, this might be another source of information.

As someone who shows line horses and is involved in IHF. I would love to be able to share this information. Many of these horses do go on but as we see information is limited. I believe until we require permenant identification (like microchipping) this will always be an issue. Microchipping not only would solve this problem but would stop unethincal professionals from selling horses as something they were not and from starting over in the pre greens with a older horse in another area who was no longer eligible.

[Tackpud]

Fish - both the horses I mentioned above are by Gold Apollo. They also had a full sister, but I don't know what happened to her.

[spacely]

What about...Just Dessert & Imperial Crown? Have they been sucessful outside of the IHF?

Paradisio is another - champion o/f at WPB as well as the IHF.

[CBoylen]

Do his balance, etc., compensate for the weight? Does the weight in some way help build bone-- or is this horse just a freak in an arena where leaner horses, on a statistical basis, do better and last longer despite the fact that the fatter horses seem to pin higher in the model?
I have no scientific basis for my reply, but, Rox Dene, also a seriously easy keeper who carried a lot of weight, jumped both divisions each week, about twenty weeks a year, for six years, four of those years at the 4', and had one joint injected once in that period of time. And retired sound.
Of course, she never set foot on a lungeline, ever, and Popeye spends about ten minutes if he goes out at all. So, the fact that a lot of fat horses are sounder than their leaner competition might be due to the fact that they're quieter and the competition is losing weight on the lungeline ;).

[Fairview Horse Center]

What age did Rox Dene retire?

I find that the extra weight on horses causes the lameness issues to begin at around 15 or so, where horses kept lighter continue to stay riding sound to 25 or so with little or no maintenence, definitely no other drugs except maybe a gram of bute a couple of times a week beginning in the early 20s.

[CBoylen]

She retired at ten. She's still very sound now though at 21.
The age you mention would be a hard thing to verify for a hunter I think. Most retire around that time or before, either due to lack of goals left, like for Rox Dene, or due to losing the spark necessary to win, and I don't know anyone that actually rides their retired horses, because they're, well, retired. I think there are far fewer horses who retire for serious soundness issues, barring the catastrophic injuries. For a hunter to retire at 15 it's probably been showing for 11 or 12 years; they get bored and their game starts to slide, or they run out of things to win. The eq horses compete later into their teens and twenties, and I suppose they are slightly leaner than the hunters, but they don't need spark and they rotate riders enough that they can't really win themselves out of competition. So my point is probably that I can't really speak with any experience to either agree or disagree with you ;).

[Silver Bells]

As I have said many times... Rox Dene was the most amazing horse to ever set foot in the ring. She was so careful, and jumped her heart out each time she cleared a fence. She never stopped trying or gave half an effort, and that had to be hard on her in itself. What an athlete! :yes:

Did she show on the line?

[CBoylen]

Thanks Silver Bells :)
Did she show on the line?
Hah. Once I think, and I don't think she placed. The other funny thing about line success is that it often doesn't translate to model success. I have no idea why.
I'm interested in your project; I too believe there must be more successful line horses that went on to be successful. But I'm mostly seeing here 3' horses listed, barring a few, and one very notoriously unsound one. Within the recent past I've thought that bloodlines had a lot to do with the disconnect, since a lot of the popular HB ones are seriously unpopular with hunter people. I have no idea if that's always been true or not though. My mother swears it's due to them being too confined as youngsters, and that I think is often true now and has been true for a long time, so it's a reasonable answer for me.

[Silver Bells]

CB, any info you or your mother could dig up would be greatly appreciated. Since you both are avid spectators as well as exhibitors, I am confident you will think of several horses that fit in this category.
I am getting a huge response, and I would appreciate emails with pictures of horses showing on the line and in the performance ring. My email can be obtained from my signature line. HB is where it all begins! :winkgrin:

[Fairview Horse Center]

What I am seeing sound for so long is mostly Eventers, and Foxhunters. There is enough change to keep those guys happy, doing their jobs for a long time. Good to hear Rox Dene is enjoying her retirement.

[MagicRoseFarm]

The mare we bred, Enough Said( Registered name Diamonette) won the 1994 MD Hunter futurity as a yearling( Kenny Wheeler judging),and went on to become Grand Champion at WEF, HITS, Tournament of Champions, Cosequin/USGPL Finals In Green Conformation Hunters and Large Juniors, to mention a few.

[Lgd1]

My FEI level mare did some in-hand hunter shows as a 2 & 3yo. She placed highly several times at County Show level (these are the big qualifying shows in the UK).

She then placed as a ladies ridden hunter (pure showing, no jumping). Showjumped up to Novice level and evented to Novice level before switching to pure dressage.

She bred a foal last year and is now back under saddle. Still sane and sound, aged 18yo

[PineTreeFarm]

The mare we bred, Enough Said( Registered name Diamonette) won the 1994 MD Hunter futurity as a yearling( Kenny Wheeler judging),and went on to become Grand Champion at WEF, HITS, Tournament of Champions, Cosequin/USGPL Finals In Green Conformation Hunters and Large Juniors, to mention a few.

Is this the 'Enough Said' you refer to? If it is , it had a very nice career.
ENOUGH SAID
JUNIOR HUNTER-LARGE 16-17
Sire: DEDERICK
Dam: ANNETTE
Breed: HANOVERIAN
Breeder: LINDA SEYBOLD

[Silver Bells]

Please send me pictures..... :sigh:

wcr0915@msn.com

[MagicRoseFarm]

Is this the 'Enough Said' you refer to? If it is , it had a very nice career.
ENOUGH SAID
JUNIOR HUNTER-LARGE 16-17
Sire: DEDERICK
Dam: ANNETTE
Breed: HANOVERIAN
Breeder: LINDA SEYBOLD

YUP THATS HER, ...I HEARD that she won EVERY model class in her career...


Also Beaujagold had a nice in hand career as a foal but got a scar as a yearling, so , that ended that.... She went on to be very successful until a trailer accident,

Oberon had a GIGANTIC and very long running Confo Hunter career, however , I did not have the money necessary to campaign him much as a baby, so he only did a few MD shows in hand ...

When I get home from vacation I can send you Pictures Bill,,, I can also try to track some down from Diamonette's show ring career...

On another note, I find it much easier to show DSHB in hand for these babies.... as I always seem to suffer "condition" in the HB ring- since I breed primarily for sport and use HB as a secondary and training tool for our youngsters.,... I TRULY wish less emphasis would be put on the "momentary" condition for HB and more on MOVEMENT and POTENTIAL.....

[Hunter_Rider]

MagicRoseFarm- I agree with you 100% about the movement and potential. I have seen a lot of winners that really point their toes when they jog, but may not have the step to be a 3'6 or 4'0 hunter down the road.

[The Blue Bullet]

Maybe it is time for all of these standards to be reviewed, and adjusted, for seeking ATHLETES- and not just who can win the beauty contest.



Your comment just made me laugh because my yearling was a victim of this at her last show. She placed 2nd behind the 1st place horse for one reason.....the 1st placed horse was prettier. The videographer came up to me after the class and told me that. He said the judges said my yearling was the better mover but the other yearling was prettier.

[CuriosoJorge]

You do realize, I hope, that that's like saying that the first runner up in the Miss American pageant should have won because she had a better talent segment?

[fish]

You do realize, I hope, that that's like saying that the first runner up in the Miss American pageant should have won because she had a better talent segment?

Not a good analogy: as far as I know, when judging women there is no claim of any link between conformation and performance/talent.

(This is not to say, however, that I believe the DSBH shows do any better job than HB of selecting durable performers-- not by a long shot. There are, IMO, just as many problems with weighting movement over conformation as the other way around-- maybe even more.)

[The Blue Bullet]

You do realize, I hope, that that's like saying that the first runner up in the Miss American pageant should have won because she had a better talent segment?

I'm with Fish about this not being a good analogy. HB should be about which young athlete shows the most potential to become a hunter as an adult. A beauty pageant is just that....a beauty pageant. Last I checked hunter breeding isn't defined as who's the prettiest horse out there. It should be about functionality. The horse in question was an awful mover, and didn't even have the greatest conformation. The only reason it placed was because it was pretty. And pretty is as pretty does so there's a high chance that youngster won't do anything as an adult. I'd take a good mover over the pretty one any day.

[spacely]

TBB, I think I just figured out who you are & you have every reason to be annoyed at what happened at your last show. Pretty is as pretty does. Your yearling is doing great, but unfortunately politics are coming into play. I too would have picked the better mover, but obviously the judges were blinded by the bling & the BN sire on the other horse. Sad, but probably true.:no:

[The Blue Bullet]

Spacely, You guessed correctly :)

Maybe next time I should hire a handler and paint some white marks on her. That'll do the trick. LOL

[Fairview Horse Center]

The handler can make a huge difference, and not just in how well they are shown. <sigh> those good 'ole boys <sigh>

Luckily, not in DSHB for the most part. DSHB is more about movement, but that IS what makes a dressage horse. 30% conformation, 60% movement, 10% overall impression, which can also pull in that movement score.

Hunter breeding, the movement is more of a tie breaker - usually. It will bump the placings maybe up or down one, but it won't have much of an effect. It is about conformation and pretty.

DSHB also looks at the whole horse conformationally, and uses the overall score. For example, several years ago, the Dressage at Devon Colt (possible also Young Horse) Champion severely toed out on his right front - AND moved that way. That will have brought his conformation score down from maybe an 8.5 to an 8.0, but when you added it up, he was still on top.

In Hunter Breeding, that would have crossed him off before they even looked to see if he was perfect in every other way.

[fish]

The handler can make a huge difference, and not just in how well they are shown. <sigh> those good 'ole boys <sigh>

For example, several years ago, the Dressage at Devon Colt (possible also Young Horse) Champion severely toed out on his right front - AND moved that way. That will have brought his conformation score down from maybe an 8.5 to an 8.0, but when you added it up, he was still on top.

In Hunter Breeding, that would have crossed him off before they even looked to see if he was perfect in every other way.

I'm afraid I'm very much in favor of the HB point of view especially in cases like this. To me, the importance of conformation-- especially of the legs-- is not a matter of "pretty," but of the likelihood of durability/soundness. The greatest mover in the world is not going to be worth much if he "toes out" so "severely...on his right front" that he spends half his life on stall rest due to recurrent tendon and ligament injuries-- just as the horse I had with precisely this flaw did :(.

This is one of the biggest reasons why I don't particularly like the percentage-based point system used for judging dressage/sport horse breed shows. In many cases in the real world a horse can only be as strong as his/her weakest link: if one leg keeps breaking down, it doesn't matter if the rest of the horse is perfect because s/he can't work, period.

I very much like the lattitude HB shows give judges to look at whole horses and compare them to one another much as horses are examined and judged at sales, etc.

To each his own, though. Different venues have different pros and cons. I'm glad there's more than one kind of show/mode of judging to which I can bring my babies.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Actually the photos I saw of the horse in question he improved a lot over the next few years as is expected when the chest widens. (I believe he was a 2 year old at Devon) Several Hunter breeding horses I know of ended up toed in because they were trimmed straight, when they still should have been out. The above horse is kicking butt in Dressage currently, and I believe headed to Europe.

[mbj]

We did Future event horse class ( http://www.useventing.com/competitions.php?section=feh ) with our 2 year old and they did a very good job of analyzing strengths and weaknesses and looking for what the baby would be as an adult. For instance, if a horse looked like he was lovely now but might mature to be too heavy to run a **** course he might not get as good a score as a correct lankier youngster. They look at the horse on the triangle at walk and trot and also still from both sides.gave % scores on several dimensions.
I found the comments very helpful and detailed.
They also specifically say that obese youngsters were undesirable and the judge should tell the handler. Soundness and feet count!

It would be great if HB could borrow some of this.

By the way, is Hat's Off by Harry the Hat? If so, anyone have a pic? We have a 4 yo Harry homebred who adores jumping, and all the local Harry's I see here have his cute welsh pony head and ears. In fact I always said I wanted a horse sized welsh pony and think I got one!http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

I don't get to hunter shows much, but I love a good hunter round and am always frustrated when I ask what the lovely horse's breeding is and the rider doesn't know. So thank-you so much for trying to put together this info. That is another thing I appreciate about the FEH classes. They compile breeding, breeder, and a lifetime record for the horse. That will really help down the road trying to see what lines perform best in what discipline, etc.

[PineTreeFarm]

It would be great if HB could borrow some of this.


I'm not so sure about that.
FEH, HB and DSHB all have different standards and I think that's a good thing as you can select which type of class suits your goals or the horses future career.

Just my opinion, but I'm glad they are different. In particular, a horse that moves well for DSHB may have too much knee for HB and an eventer needs a different set of talents altogether.

[fish]

Actually the photos I saw of the horse in question he improved a lot over the next few years as is expected when the chest widens. (I believe he was a 2 year old at Devon) Several Hunter breeding horses I know of ended up toed in because they were trimmed straight, when they still should have been out. The above horse is kicking butt in Dressage currently, and I believe headed to Europe.

I'm sorry, Darlyn, but I had the impression that this was not both fronts toeing out to the degree expected of an immature horse, but rather only the right which toed out "severely." I am glad that this particular horse has gone on to do well, but still don't see the sense in making breed show champions of horses with "severe" conformation faults.

I, too, have seen horses end up toed in because of over correction by farriers, whether the horses were headed for HB shows or not. It's something people everywhere do if they don't know any better. When I was getting ready to have my colt shown on the line, I consulted with 2 of the top handlers in the country. Contrary to popular belief, neither wanted my colt overweight, nor did they want his future correctness compromised by trimming him into appearing straighter than was appropriate for his age. Good horsemen are just that, regardless of discipline.

P.S. I, too, am glad that the FEH, HB and DSHB classes are different and think they need to remain so. I don't think mbj would disagree, but is instead saying that she wished the HB shows could include some of the helpful, educational features of the FEH she attended. I'd like to see that, too, and do think that H/J shows are (albeit very slowly) moving in that direction. E.g., I noticed at Devon that they had the breeding of the horses up on the light board (even in the performance divisions??) this year, and at the NCHJA show in Raleigh, they had discussions with judges going on (forget what they were called :( ) during some of the classes.

At this point, I mostly prefer the HB over the DSHB shows for my youngsters I think the atmosphere and presentation expectations are more conducive to raising a relaxed horse. Ribbons are nice, but they're not what I'm there for. I haven't yet seen a FEH, but if the atmosphere is as good for developing calm, alert manners in my young horses as I've found the HB shows, while at the same time providing more explicit education from the judges, I think I could really go for them.

[Leland]

Interesting topic - I haven't read all the threads. If someone posted this, I am sorry:

Here are the leading 2005 3 year olds in HB, per the USEF:

Horse / Owner Points Total Comps
1 PAJAMA GAME / PARSKY, ROBIN - CA 137 (12 comps)
2 ARGO'S QUEST / SYMMETRY RANCH, LLC - NY 106 (26 comps)
3 SURPRIZE PARTY / KULLEY, LINDA - NJ 100 (18 comps)
4 MADISON AVENUE / JONES, ANNE - MD 80 (11 comps)
5 FIRST IMPRESSION / CONSENTINO, ALLISON - VA 79 (21 comps)
6 STRIKE THE MATCH / CILO, JANIE - CO 69 (8 comps)
7 GREATER THAN GOLD / CONQUEST, HEATHER - TX 68 (11 comps)
8 REGAL DONA / BALLARD HARALSON, JULIE - GA 66 (6 comps)
9 ABSOLUT TRIBUTE / SCOTT, CHRISTINE - VA 59.5 (13 comps)
10 EVERYONE'S WISH / ODOM, CATHERINE - LA 55 (8 comps)
JUST IN TIME / QUIRK, TISH - CA 55 (12 comps)
12 SOX FIFTH AVENUE / DAVIS, NANCY - SC 42 (3 comps)
13 GENUINE / HUNT, MICHELLE - OR 33 (3 comps)
14 DECK THE HALLS / BROWN, VICTORIA - TN 29 (4 comps)
15 OYSTER / JACOBS, CHARLES - NY 27 (11 comps)
WEE BE GOOD / VON BACHELLE, KAREN - CT 27 (4 comps)
17 SEYCHELLES / BLAIK DVM, MARGIE - FL 26 (3 comps)
18 RECHROME / KOLTSE, MARY - IL 24 (4 comps)
19 ABSOLUT MAGIC / KELLY, JOHN W JR. - VA 23 (5 comps)
20 GOLD PANDA / DUNNING, BARBARA - CA 21 (4 comps)
21 E BAY / RHODES, WENDY - AL 20 (3 comps)
FIRGROVE PACIFIC EKKO / PHANEUF, KAYE - OR 20 (1 comps)
23 INVINCIBLE / STROEDE, SHEILA - WI 19 (7 comps)
24 BY APPOINTMENT ONLY / BUSCH BURKE, ELIZABETH - VA 18 (2 comps)
25 FULL CRY / ERICSON, J. - FL 17 (3 comps)
26 LOST CAUSE / DE GOLIAN, B J - GA 16 (1 comps)
27 CLEMENTINE / POSEY, KATHLEEN - LA 14 (5 comps)
28 CORINTHOZ / CARTER, KIERA - CA 13 (3 comps)
29 MARGARITA GOLD / WILSON, MICHELLE - CO 12 (4 comps)
UNDERSTATED / EILAND, KRYSTAL - AL 12 (3 comps)
31 AROAN AGAIN / BRINKLEY, SUSAN - MD 11 (3 comps)
BRIEF ENCOUNTER / SJOBERG, MAGGIE - GA 11 (2 comps)
EXTRAVAGANT / CHO, JO - CA 11 (2 comps)
34 CHAIN OF RAINBOWS / GILLAS, DAWN - SC 10 (2 comps)
ON THE MARK / HAWKINS, JANE - GA 10 (2 comps)
ONE MORE LOOK / EDEN, MARLA - OR 10 (2 comps)
37 MISTY BLUE LEGEND / LONG, BARBARA - IA 9 (3 comps)
38 BEYOND A SHUFFLE / DEEP FOREST STABLE - FL 8 (1 comps)
MOSCOW'S GIFT / MILLER, JENNIFER - CA 8 (4 comps)


I don't know how to go any earlier with statistics.
Maybe better to look at the zone stats? I stopped at 39.

So, anyone know where these guys are - at 5 they maybe starting to show?

[Fairview Horse Center]

The horse I was speaking of was definitely toed out badly on the right front, not both, as a 2 year old, but photos I have seen of him recently look pretty darn straight in both.

I guess people look to what they have personally seen as a problem. For me, boarding hundreds of horses whose legs I swore up and down would never hold up, only to have them sound into their 20s, I just don't worry about it anymore, as long as they move straight. My very first horse toed in a lot, and I do believe it caused him to pop 2 splints, but he was packing my husband around 3' courses as a 25 year old, sound, with no meds. The colt at Devon stayed in my mind because he was not moving straight. I have also seen several youngsters with leg deviations that were fine as a 5 or 6 year old.

[fish]

The horse I was speaking of was definitely toed out badly on the right front, not both, as a 2 year old, but photos I have seen of him recently look pretty darn straight in both.

I guess people look to what they have personally seen as a problem. For me, boarding hundreds of horses whose legs I swore up and down would never hold up, only to have them sound into their 20s, I just don't worry about it anymore, as long as they move straight. My very first horse toed in a lot, and I do believe it caused him to pop 2 splints, but he was packing my husband around 3' courses as a 25 year old, sound, with no meds. The colt at Devon stayed in my mind because he was not moving straight. I have also seen several youngsters with leg deviations that were fine as a 5 or 6 year old.

I agree completely, Darlyn--- it very much depends on what one's experience has been. I've seen (and continue to see) way too many conformationally flawed individuals become (veterinary) textbook examples of why their flaws are to be avoided: from overly straight hindlegs developing severe stifle problems (e.g. locking and even broken patellas) and sickle hocks leading to bone spavin, to the tendon and ligament injuries my beloved old guy was plagued by due to a severely toeing out front leg (which did, BTW, move straight-- from the elbow down the whole leg moved straight, with the toe, knee, etc., all pointed out). After seeing so many examples of poor conformation leading to severely compromised and abortive careers, I started to insist on correct legs when I shopped-- just about fell over when I saw the way those prices shot up, too-- but that's when (and not until) I started having sound 20+ y.o.'s to play with!

Reminds me of a funny (I hope) story, though: at one of the many Pony Club clinics at which my older daughter rode my lovely but horribly incorrect TB, the clinician asked each rider what she'd like most to change about her horse. My daughter's reply: "his legs."