Nursemare: explain something to me..

[Spike]

I'm relatively new in this forum, and I often see that nursemares are needed or offered... and that some farms always have nursemares available, or that you can rent a nursemare... Here in my province of Canada, nothing like this is available, you must be very lucky if you have an orphean foal to get a mare who will accept a second foal or who, by a very sad coincidence, lost her foal at the same moment so we can do the match...

But, as I'm reading some threads, it seems that somethimes they have nursemares with foals, and if someone rent this nursemare, they take the biological foal off his dam to "give" the mare to a orphean foal who's owners pay for it!!!

Sorry my ignorance, but what they are doing with this poor little traumatised foal taken off his mom for the convenience of another foal??? The biological foal is just there to make the mare's milk and then he is thrown away?

How does it work? because if this is the way it work, god I dont think that I agree with the idea...

[Tiki]

That is sooooo not true for the Nurse Mare farms with which I am familiar. What they do is take the foal off the mare and put it in a group of similar aged foals. These foals are socialized in groups and bucket fed. They are handled regularly and treated very, very well. I've seen them playing happily together and sleeping in 'piles', using each other for pillows. In some ways they actually look happier than foals with mares who don't allow the foals to socialize with each other. The mares from these farms are 'professional' nurse mares who know their jobs well, call out to the foals as they are brought to the farm with the orphan, and do everything they can to help the foal adjust to their new 'mom'. Not every mare, or mare who just lost a foal will accept a new foal. These mares do - that's their job. They are often very well bred, and bred to very good stallions, and their foals are certainly not throwaways, but usually very well bred, handled and socialized foals.

[Hillside H Ranch]

Umm, I think this can be a very polarizing issue. Yes, most nurse mares don't get to raise their own foals, good nurse-mare programs bottle/bucket feed those babies and place them in good homes. I have known, personally, a couple of "nurse-mare" organizations that would send those foals to lower end auctions, even before weaning age, which is completely irresponsible, IMHO. However, that was years ago and neither one of those "oraganizations" is still around.
I will get flamed for this, but I'm not a fan of nurse mare farms. I think those mares are saints, and are wonderful animals that have saved lives. However, I don't agree with the practice of breeding those mares to provide milk for other foals while their own foals are hand raised. I don't think one "life" is more important than the other, so it makes no sense to me to produce these foals so that the mares can go on to raise other "more important" foals. I think there are other ways to raise orphan foals, both to insure correct nutrition and socialization skills and we all know that right now in the horse industry there are too many horses and not enough homes. Why add to it?
Anyway, a very unpopular opinion, but there you have it.

[Texarkana]

Tiki- very well put.

Spike- would you say there might be a need for a nurse mare farm in Quebec? I guess I should go start checking real estate near Montreal... ;)

[Cherry]

It does sound like an idiotic idea to me but people must pay big bucks to rent nursemares (that's the only upside I can see to this deal).

We had a person nearby who does the nursemare thing. She's since died but her relatives are carrrying on her business.

The foals are taken away and fed from buckets as Tiki said and they are often called "bucket babies". I've seen a group of these foals and they looked fine and seemed to be well socialized. I think the person I was with paid $200. for an unregistered foal.

I saw a lot of draft mares while I was there and a Standardbred mare who could barely walk that was ready to pop.... :( But the lady used to stand a Quarter Horse stallion (years ago) who was a star and the daddy of a lot of the foals.

[Spike]

I think those mares are saints, and are wonderful animals that have saved lives. However, I don't agree with the practice of breeding those mares to provide milk for other foals while their own foals are hand raised. I don't think one "life" is more important than the other, so it makes no sense to me to produce these foals so that the mares can go on to raise other "more important" foals. I think there are other ways to raise orphan foals, both to insure correct nutrition and socialization skills and we all know that right now in the horse industry there are too many horses and not enough homes.

that was exactly what I was trying to say.. Thanks!

Tiki: I agree that there are some good and bad places in any kind of horses related business and I REALLY HOPE that in most of the nurse mare programs they act the way you are describing it.

But I have to agree with what Hillside H Ranch wrote about more or less important foals...

Texarkana... I dont think there's a BIG need, because most of the breeders here are breeding the average 1000$cdn weaned non reg. QH foals for trail and gymkhanas... and they probably wont pay for that service... but a colostrum bank program would be very helpfull I'm pretty shure... a lot of small breeders who own just a mare or two cant stock a sufficient colostrum provision just in case...

[Texarkana]

Texarkana... I dont think there's a BIG need, because most of the breeders here are breeding the average 1000$cdn weaned non reg. QH foals for trail and gymkhanas... and they probably wont pay for that service... but a colostrum bank program would be very helpfull I'm pretty shure... a lot of small breeders who own just a mare or two cant stock a sufficient colostrum provision just in case...


Eh darn... I didn't think so. I've been looking for an untapped area, but it seems all the good markets have already been swopped up.

I am very familiar with the farm Cherry described-- I have done lots of work with them when I lived back east. I haven't falled out of touch since the owner passed away, though.

[Tiki]

One that I am familiar with uses registered mares and breeds them to an approved stallion. They're not just throway foals, however, I do realize that there are probably some shady operators out there just as in everything else.

[Hillside H Ranch]

One that I am familiar with uses registered mares and breeds them to an approved stallion. They're not just throway foals, however, I do realize that there are probably some shady operators out there just as in everything else.

Kudos to them! I'm guessing they are the exception rather than the rule. There are quite a few nurse mare farms out there, and the ones that I've seen recently use primarily quarter horse/stock horse type crosses and some draft crosses. If you do a quick Google search you can see that a lot of the foals end up in the rescue/adoption pipeline. I know that a particular equine rescue in my state gets 6-12 nurse mare foals a year and has a hard time placing them in homes for an adoption fee of only $150. They are crossbred foals, and are in pretty good shape when they come to the rescue, but to me we don't need more animals like that looking for homes.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Hillside Ranch, I totally agree. Sad to me for the nursemare that knows she will lose her own foal. She loves babies, so yes, she is a wonderful girl and accepts another. Out of heartbreak? Desperation? Just sad, cruel, and mean IMO. Flame away...

[rcloisonne]

Hillside Ranch, I totally agree. Sad to me for the nursemare that knows she will lose her own foal. She loves babies, so yes, she is a wonderful girl and accepts another. Out of heartbreak? Desperation? Just sad, cruel, and mean IMO. Flame away...
No flames. Agree with you 100%

A better way might be to set up a regional database of mares who have lost foals and foals who've lost their dams. Granted, there are no guarantees a mare would take on a strange foal, but I'll bet many times they would. Most good broodmares love foals and being moms.

[Fairview Horse Center]

or simply to match foals with other orphans. I see no reason why one tragic loss has to be made into 2 more.

[Cindy's Warmbloods]

I agree as well and those are my thoughts exactly. All foals are equal to me, regardless of bloodlines, expenses spent etc. I don't treat a $500 horse any less than I would a $25,000. They still feel the same trauma, pain etc of losing their moms, I don't care what anyone says. So if my foal lost his dam (yes it would be tragic) I don't feel I have any right to inflict it on another foal and I deal with it or find a mare that lost her foal to try with. But that is just my opinion.

[Sandra6500]

I have a mare that will accept foals in addition to her own. Its can be tricky and you have to make sure that you provide enough supportive care (extra feed, vitamins, etC) to the mare so it isn't too draining but it can be done that way too

[Blueskidoo]

I had a nursemare, we rented her from some place I never heard of, and frankly I don't want to know what went on with her foal.

But we needed her. Lots can change in a year between the time you breed a mare and she finally foals. We were having difficulties with our son and we were seeing doctors all the time, and there was quite a bit of other stuff going on in my life that prevented me from bucket raising this filly.

Am I saying my filly was more important that the nursemare's foal? no. And had I known more about nursemare farms at the time I probably would have tried a different place then the one we ended up with (the vet hospital had a relationship with them). We were not set up to handle bucket raising a foal, and certianly the better nursemare farms do that all the time. They know how to get one on replacer, they know how often to change the replacer, how to mix it correctly, what dirreah is caused by chaging onto milk replacer and what is a crisis. There are other foals being raised that way as well so they aren't all alone. Many of them are large enough operations that they have staff to rotate takeing care of the foals round the clock, which is much more efficient. Here, it's all me all the time.

So while nursemares are not the most pleasent aspect of breeding, when you really need one, be greatful you can get one. Raising an orphan foal is an art into its self, and be thankful if you haven't had to walk down that road.

[JoZ]

I may be wrong, but I would bet that orphan foals make up a very small percentage of the foals for which nursemares are obtained. I think that most of the nursemares are used for foals whose dams are shipped cross-country to be bred on their foal heat. So the mare gives birth and has her baby taken away to be given to a nursemare, meanwhile she (the mare) is packed up for travel to her next breeding location. Particularly JC mares who have to do live cover, if their next "date" isn't local.

[Hillside H Ranch]

I may be wrong, but I would bet that orphan foals make up a very small percentage of the foals for which nursemares are obtained. I think that most of the nursemares are used for foals whose dams are shipped cross-country to be bred on their foal heat. So the mare gives birth and has her baby taken away to be given to a nursemare, meanwhile she (the mare) is packed up for travel to her next breeding location. Particularly JC mares who have to do live cover, if their next "date" isn't local.

That is true, and that is actually how the nurse-mare industry came into being. I think more and more people are using them for orphan foals, however.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Raising an orphan foal is an art into its self, and be thankful if you haven't had to walk down that road.

I am doing this myself as well, including mucking the stalls for my 27 stall boarding barn, feeding, turning in and out, standing stallions to the public, collecting and shipping semen all over the country, and had just finished foaling out 6 mares in 45 days. My sweet mare left me with a 2 day old foal.

I do understand exhausted. I had never raised an orphan before. I put together a webpage to help others. http://members.aol.com/fairviewhorsectr/igloo.html The first week was definitely lots more time, but then it evened out. I probably spent 10 minutes in 4 months mucking the orphan's stall, so mixing the milk was a trade off, and it worked nicely into the schedule, 2 or 3 times a day.

Hope the page helps someone else.

[jaimebaker]

I have bottlefed a foal from one day old. The problem was, there wasn't a damn thing wrong with his mother, she just rejected him and violently (she will NEVER be bred again because of that either).

I never knew about nursemares or sites like Cyberfoal where they place foals with mares and vice versa. I sure the hell wish I would have because I would have done things oh, so differently.

I must be ignorant because I didn't know there were farms that specifically had 'nursemares'. I had always heard of things like 'mare lost her foal, looking for another foal' or 'mare died, looking for a replacement mare for the foal'. But I never knew that there were places that had mares who already HAD foals on them, only to be taken away and replaced by a foal from someone willing to pay big bucks. It IS kinda sad when you look at it.

[On the Farm]

I may be wrong, but I would bet that orphan foals make up a very small percentage of the foals for which nursemares are obtained. I think that most of the nursemares are used for foals whose dams are shipped cross-country to be bred on their foal heat. So the mare gives birth and has her baby taken away to be given to a nursemare, meanwhile she (the mare) is packed up for travel to her next breeding location. Particularly JC mares who have to do live cover, if their next "date" isn't local.

I'll take that bet.

[Lindros]

I have met a few different nurse mares from/at several farms in the last few years (I used to work for an equine vet specializing in repro).
The majority of the mares were draft crosses and in poor shape. Very, very sad... Often their milk is 'too rich' ... well, that's what people think when their foal get crazy physitis at a few weeks of age. The real problem of course is that the mare hasn't been fed well and therefore isn't producing great milk, milk doesn't supply foal with vitamins or minerals etc. Then they starve the mare to get the physitis under control. I have known draft horse nurse mares (and this is at a big TB breeding farm not some back yard breeder) only getting 3 small flakes of hay a day (to control the growth of the foal). It just breaks your heart.
I don't even want to talk of the fact that perfectly healthy foals get taken away from their perfectly healthy and happy dams just because the mare has to be shipped off to god knows where to be bred again... Sooo sad!!
Yeah, let them carry the damn foal for 11 months, foal it out and then just take it away from them... so cruel.
Often nurse mares are hobbled and tranq'ed for days on end.

This year I met a very happy and wonderful nurse mare. One of the big TB farms in this area keeps their own nurse mares. We were lucky enough that they were done foaling when we need one and that we could borrow her. She's a STB and simply a wonderful mare. Apparently she has raised a lot of foals. Her own foal was born in March and was with her untill the end of May. She loves her adopted foal, takes great care of him and is very protective of him. Her own foal is looked after and will eventually be turned into a riding horse and sold.
I have also know a few foals that were bucket raised and had a kind, older pony mare for company. The mare was always tied up in the stall (mostly because she would have gorged herself on the foals hay etc.) but the pair was turned out with a group of mares and foals.
That's the best option in my opinion. There are excellent milk replacers and foal feeds available today. If you can provide company for the foal you're all set.
A friend of mine once lost a mare about 12 hrs after delivery. An other mare foaled that night. She took the placenta and rubbed it all over the orphan foal and covered the foal with it. She then placed the orphan foal in the stall with the mare and foal. The mare was a bit surprised to have an other one but started cleaning it off and thought that it was her own.
My friend told me, that she actually like the orphan foal a bit better in the beginning because he already knew how to nurse but her own foal still had to figure it out of course. She raised the two foals with out a problem!

[Kinsella]

I have raised a bucket baby. I'll never do it again. Period. There is nothing better than a good nurse mare. With the exception of a good nurse mare farm. Do your research people - if you only read about the bad farms and the information on some of the "rescue" sites, OF COURSE all the news is bad. Heck, according to PETA, we are all cruel and inhumane for keeping horses in stalls and riding them! Are they right? If I was researching horseback riding and all I read was about the trainers that drug horses or kill them for money, what kind of opinion would I have? DO YOUR RESEARCH before you judge an entire industry by biased information. And be responsible - the owners that I have known that had to have nurse mares have done their parts to take care of the mare's natural offspring by donating time or money to help with their care. Heck, one owner even bought the two resulting foals from the two mares they had to have one year.

Maybe I'm the one that needs to be wearing the flame suit here...

[Blueskidoo]

Fairview-

Ahh, I am so sorry to hear about your mare.

If I had been able to be home on a regular schedual with my "stuff" things might have been different, but the irregularity of what was going on with my life was simply not compatible with the constant needs of a young foal. We needed that mare, simple as that.

Good luck with your foal. And making that web page is an excellent idea and will hopefully serve mare owners in the future.

[Hillside H Ranch]

I have raised a bucket baby. I'll never do it again. Period. There is nothing better than a good nurse mare. With the exception of a good nurse mare farm. Do your research people - if you only read about the bad farms and the information on some of the "rescue" sites, OF COURSE all the news is bad. Heck, according to PETA, we are all cruel and inhumane for keeping horses in stalls and riding them! Are they right? If I was researching horseback riding and all I read was about the trainers that drug horses or kill them for money, what kind of opinion would I have? DO YOUR RESEARCH before you judge an entire industry by biased information. And be responsible - the owners that I have known that had to have nurse mares have done their parts to take care of the mare's natural offspring by donating time or money to help with their care. Heck, one owner even bought the two resulting foals from the two mares they had to have one year.

Maybe I'm the one that needs to be wearing the flame suit here...

I have seen many examples of the nurse mare industry; I am in the equine repro field and I'm not basing my opinion on just a few farms. In fact, if you read my posts I really never said that nurse mares, or their natural foals were abused or neglected. I certainly never attacked the people in the industry. I think the whole premise is fundamentally wrong. I think it is wrong to breed a mare just so she can lactate, then take her own foal from her so that she can raise a "more valuable foal". People argue that that is what is best for the foal, well fine, but what about the original foal; it certainly isn't getting what is best for it by that argument. And I think it is an undisputable fact that most (I didn't say ALL) of the foals produced by the nurse mare farms do end up glutting a lot of the rescue and placement organizations when we already know that many of these groups are stretched to the max trying to place other horses, as well. I don't think a life should ever be a by-product.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I don't think a life should ever be a by-product.

Thank-you!

[KaraAD]

I think some of you are being pretty hard on the good nurse mare farms. Frankly, if something had happened to my mare; there is no way that I would have the time or be able to bucket raise my new foal. My job and the distance between me and the farm where they live would make that impossible. The foal who is left behind is (at the good nurse mare farms) being left in capable hands with other babies for company. The Nurse Mare people know how to hand raise a foal and since it's their business, they have the time. It's not that the biological foal is worth less than mine - but a nurse mare would have saved my foal's life and the biological foal would be raised by people who know what they are doing.

Obviously, nurse mare farms that simply throw those foals away - well that's terrible and greedy but from what I've read not the norm - anymore than someone having their horse killed for the insurance money is the norm in the show world.

[Hillside H Ranch]

I think some of you are being pretty hard on the good nurse mare farms. Frankly, if something had happened to my mare; there is no way that I would have the time or be able to bucket raise my new foal. My job and the distance between me and the farm where they live would make that impossible. The foal who is left behind is (at the good nurse mare farms) being left in capable hands with other babies for company. The Nurse Mare people know how to hand raise a foal and since it's their business, they have the time. It's not that the biological foal is worth less than mine - but a nurse mare would have saved my foal's life and the biological foal would be raised by people who know what they are doing.

Obviously, nurse mare farms that simply throw those foals away - well that's terrible and greedy but from what I've read not the norm - anymore than someone having their horse killed for the insurance money is the norm in the show world.
I will pleasantly agree to disagree and leave the discussion at that. I just can't understand that if it is best for your foal to be raised by a mare, why isn't that the best for the nurse-mare's foal? Why shouldn't it have the benefit of being raised by its dam?
I also feel like if you are going to breed then you'd darn well better be prepared to hand-raise a foal. Sometimes nurse mares just aren't available-no matter how badly you need them or what you are willing to pay; what then? Part of being a responsible breeder is planning for things like that.

[Annetta]

We were just talking about this here the other evening, after reading the post about the yard sale foal that had come from a nurse mare facility...sold at the auction for $15 when it was much too young to be sold to an inexperienced owner. I've heard similar stories about different nurse mare facilities in the US & overseas.

I too fail to see why anyone thinks the orphan foal is more valuable than the nursemare's own foal...as was already said, if it's best for the orphan to have a mare to raise it, then it's also true that it's best to have the nursemare raise her own foal. Not a chance I'd support the nursemare industry.

If I were to have an orphan foal here, I would put in the time & effort to raise it myself, on formula. If someone else cannot raise an orphan foal, then I'd suggest that they should send the foal to someone that can raise that foal for them. I think the nursemare providers should instead turn their attention to providing care facilities for orphan foals--if you can make money by renting out nurse mares you should be able to make money raising orphan foals for people.

Orphanages and colostrum banks, those would be a good thing.

[Lenny]

But, Whenever there is a conversation about the Nursemare, there will always be the small percentage of Uninformed or misinformed Emotional people just spilling their emotions all over it. These same people will not Identify their horses as Animals or livestock.They are pets to them and they can't keep them apart from the real horse world. They do not think rationally about the Nursemare subject at all. Not wanting to know all the reasons why the Nursemare is called in for. It always comes down to the Nursemare foal. How badly their treated,how their sold to auctions and how they are just Nursemare foals,never to be anything but low class backyard horses. Most of the information,(unfortunately) comes from the rescue sites emotional people go to. Perfect for the rescue site as they get most of their donations from emotional people spilling tears over what their reading about a nursemare farm that just throws the foals up on a manure pile.Or whatever. This nursemare Farm in their mind represents all the nursemare industry.Right.I have over the years tried to inform those that wanted to listen, about the Nursemare and how we raise foals and sell them to good homes. How we raise them in groups. How some go back in the herd to be Nursemares. How some go out to be companions for distressed,depressed Orphans. Sandy has always tried to sell her babies to people that she thinks are capable of careing for the foals. There have even been rescue people that she has sold foals to. These people wanted nice foals to sell to get their expence moneys up. Then in their sites they downgrade Sandy in their propaganda. Someone is always out there to downgrade her service and take advantage of her nice foals. Foals that were in perfect shape and perfect health when they left Sandys farm.There has been plenty of Nursemare information on this site,by me. The trouble with some is they think every part of the horse industry centers around what they think. IT DON'T. Their percentage is small. There knowledge is small compaired to the amount of horse owners that make up this huge industry. An industry with many parts (or sections) just to please all the different typs of horse people there is in it. OK, there are Nursemares that have milk ecause they were Given Drugs,were bred or just have milk 365 days of the yr. The nursemare foal can be what one wants it to be. They are good trail horses,dressage,eventers,jumpers or just pets. They are not just throw aways, they are worth money or at least some money. I once knew a trainer that had an App,TB cross he was training and he also had this big warmblood fom accross the pond. Also being trained. Jumpers. The big one would slip and falter when the footing was wet. The 16 hand App cross never slipped at all. The trainer couldn't figure it out. I'll leave it to you all to figure. There have been lots of Nursemare Foals that have made little children sooooo happy. I hope I didn't affend anyone. There are so mny different types feelings out there as well as different types of horsemen. Only the breeder knows the value of a Nursemare and only the Committed Nursemare opperator knows the value of a Nursemare Foal. To many emotions can undermine ones thinking about the Nursemare Industry. As well as they can with the foals. enough said by me for now.

[Fairview Horse Center]

My main objection is to the fact that a mom is separated from her very young foal for the convenience of others. There is nothing "uninformed or misinformed" about that. The foals may very well be nice, useful, well cared for babies, but they are still a by product, and both mom and baby have to go thru a very sad loss.

Now if you tell me the nursemares are NEVER taken away until their own foal is 3 or 4 months old, I would have a lot less of a problem with the industry.

[Spike]

My main objection is to the fact that a mom is seperated from her very young foal for the convenience of others. There is nothing "uninformed or misinformed" about that. The foals may very well be nice, useful, well cared for babies, but they are still a by product, and both mom and baby have to go thru a very sad loss.

Now if you tell me the nursemares are NEVER taken away until their own foal is 3 or 4 months old, I would have a lot less of a problem with the industry.


100% agree

[Sandra6500]

Well I was in a hurry yesterday so only posted briefly.

I actually know many more nursemares that accept a foal in addition to their own than mares that have their own babies taken away. I know my mare will take two foals in addition to her own. We don't let her have two extra (even though she loves to steal those babies away if given the chance) but I will let her nurse an orphan if needed.

I wonder why more nursemares aren't available that way? I suppose the foal would have to come to the mare instead of the other way around but its a good alternative really.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I actually know many more nursemares that accept a foal in addition to their own... I wonder why more nursemares aren't available that way?

That would be ideal. Order a nursemare, AND a playmate! Perfect! In cases that the nursemare may not fit into the established broodmare herd, the playmate may be the more important of the 2. It would surely save money for the nursemare farms to not have to buy all of that milk replacer. Win-Win-Win-Win!

[Hillside H Ranch]

Well I was in a hurry yesterday so only posted briefly.

I actually know many more nursemares that accept a foal in addition to their own than mares that have their own babies taken away. I know my mare will take two foals in addition to her own. We don't let her have two extra (even though she loves to steal those babies away if given the chance) but I will let her nurse an orphan if needed.

I wonder why more nursemares aren't available that way? I suppose the foal would have to come to the mare instead of the other way around but its a good alternative really.

This is a good idea when it will work. A lot of mares just won't take another foal. And for the ones that do, you have to be very careful that both foals are actually getting enough milk to thrive. Mares just weren't meant to nurse more than one foal, so it does take a prolific milker to nourish two foals completely. But nice for the mares and foals when it works out this way!

[Waterwitch]

I think the whole premise is fundamentally wrong. I think it is wrong to breed a mare just so she can lactate, then take her own foal from her so that she can raise a "more valuable foal". People argue that that is what is best for the foal, well fine, but what about the original foal; it certainly isn't getting what is best for it by that argument. And I think it is an undisputable fact that most (I didn't say ALL) of the foals produced by the nurse mare farms do end up glutting a lot of the rescue and placement organizations when we already know that many of these groups are stretched to the max trying to place other horses, as well. I don't think a life should ever be a by-product.

I completely agree with you HHR. Very, very well said.

[RiddleMeThis]

**zips flame suit up**

I have never bred a horse and probably never will. So take my opinion with whatever you want.

This is mostly for those who are against this because either you don't want the nurse mares to be taken away from their own foals or the ones that are against it because all foals are equal and you love everyone.

Yes it sucks that they are taken from there own foals, but they are being used to care for another and their babies are for the most part are taken very well care of, raised, socialized, and sold to good homes.Yes some aren't but most are.


Whats your thought on letting the orphan foal die because the owner cant provide 24 hour care bottle/bucket feeding it? So instead of two live healthy foals we now have one healthy foal and one dead foal because you couldn't let someone else raise the nurse mares foal.

For those of you who say, "if it's best for the orphan to have a mare to raise it, then it's also true that it's best to have the nurse mare raise her own foal." If that is true then "if its ok for the orphan foal to be bottle/bucket fed than its ok that the nurse mares foal be bottle/bucket fed" is also true.

So I guess what I'm saying is whats better? One live healthy foal raised by its mom and one dead foal because it lost its mom and had no nurse mare and no one to give it 24 hour care or two live healthy foals one cared for by a nurse mare and the other bucket/bottle fed by someone who has the time and experience to do it?

[Fairview Horse Center]

So I guess what I'm saying is whats better? One live healthy foal raised by its mom and one dead foal because it lost its mom and had no nurse mare and no one to give it 24 hour care

or two live healthy foals one cared for by a nurse mare and the other bucket/bottle fed by someone who has the time and experience to do it?

Option 3. Orphan foal cared for and fed by someone that has the time and experience to do it. I had neither, and did it anyway.

[RiddleMeThis]

Option 3. Orphan foal cared for and fed by someone that has the time and experience to do it. I had neither, and did it anyway.

What do you do when there is NO way to do it? Take a small breeding program run by say a wife and spouse with a 10 stall barn with about 8 horses. (Just picked numbers not actual barn or people or horses). They have to do everything themselves. Feed muck turn out ride care for. They probably wont have time to care for an orphan foal. So what should they do with it?

Big breeding operation this time. Lots of horse lots of pregnant mares and lots of mares with babies. What happens then? I doubt that they have the time with all those horses to bottle feed and hand care for one for 24 hours. It's most likely a business to them not a nursing center.

Not everyone has the time and resources to care for an orphan but they are trying to give that baby the best life they can, and if that means that another has to be bottle fed and taken care of by a human for this one to live then I'm all for it.

ETA: I agree option three is the best one but I don't think it is always possible

[rainechyldes]

If these were PMU farms, would you be defending them with the same vigour?

I found this discussion incredibly discouraging. Knowledgable , well spoken educated people who can blithely state, but 'it's ok..because... (insert various rationale here)

In fact as one previous poster stated - ***I needed a nursemare, I don't want to know what happened to it's own foal.***

Depressing, and sadly a very true insight into our nature. We have no trouble crying havoc when something pulls at our heartstrings, but only when it doesn't have any threat of impacting negatively upon anything WE personally own/care for.

[Home Again Farm]

I will weigh in here. I have done it both ways. I had a filly horribly rejected by its dam one year. It was tubed with colostrum but didn't receive enough and ended up with pneumonia and clostridia. Her life was a terrible roller coaster for the next 4 months and she had some major social adjustments to make probably more from being half killed by her mother than by being raised without her.

Fast forward a year. I had a mare die from a twisted colon about 24 hours after she foaled. The previous year had been so hard on that filly that I got this year's colt a nursemare. The mare arrived well cared for and her month old foal was going to a new home. The nursemare was astounding — accepting my colt within minutes. That colt grew up totally normal. I kept him from epiphysitis by supplementing her milk with Buckeye foal aide. She was well cared for and never starved. She was returned to the nursemare farm. However, I have to admit that the whole process bothered me a bit.

If I ever have another foal that is orphaned, I probably won't get a nurse mare. Caring for an orphan is not as labor intensive as one would think IF they receive the right amount of colostrum in the first 12 hours. They readily learn to drink from a bucket and the new milk replacers are acidified to prevet spoilage. They can be socialized and will learn their space if their humans are at all knowledgeable horsepeople. I was so worried the second time around that I got a nursemare, but in hindsight, with the first orphaned, bucket fed baby now under saddle and preparing for a mare performance test, it is amazing what good handling and tincture of time does with an orphan.

[RiddleMeThis]

If these were PMU farms, would you be defending them with the same vigour?


If I found after research that they took care of the babies and tried to get them into loving homes where they would be appreciated and not just ship them off to auction then yes.

I feel that you should do what you want as long as you take care of the side effects, such as the foals.

[Annetta]

option 3. I am on my own, with no help other than my mother (a senior). She is home all the time, but at her age & with a bad knee, her ability to do a lot of work is seriously limited. I work full time M-F, do most of the outside work on the acreage, do all of the heavy work, am farrier to all of our horses....do I have time or energy to raise an orphan foal? No, but if I had to, I would do it. I did bottle feed a little colt last year--bottle feed & then later bowl fed him--not an orphan, but still needed formula every couple hours when he was a young foal, less often as he got a bit older, because his mother just didn't have enough milk for him. So yeah, I do know how much work it is, and yes, somehow or other I would do it.

But if I couldn't do it, I'd find someone who could, and hire that person to look after the orphan for me. I wouldn't hire a nursemare. Only way I'd get a nurse mare is if I came across someone whose mare had lost her foal, and she would accept my baby.

As a breeder I know that an orphan foal is a possibility. If I wasn't prepared to deal with that possibility--no matter how much work it might be fore me--I wouldn't breed.

[chaltagor]

What do you do when there is NO way to do it? Take a small breeding program run by say a wife and spouse with a 10 stall barn with about 8 horses. (Just picked numbers not actual barn or people or horses). They have to do everything themselves. Feed muck turn out ride care for. They probably wont have time to care for an orphan foal. So what should they do with it?

They they shouldn't be breeding if they can't be responsible for the negative outcome. It's not all wine and roses.

There would be a lot less "excess" horses if these nursemares weren't bred every year in the chance that they'll be needed for an orphan foal. Sure the horses are useful, but there are enough useful horses going homeless as it is. Does America need more?

[Black Forest]

I can't quite understand the whole nursemare business (and that is basically what it is) and we don't seem to have it over here, but whilst I do have a problem with foals being produced purely to make a mare give milk for someone else's foal (basically as a necessary but not exactly wanted by-product) , I happily drink milk / eat cheese and calves are produced and usually at least half slaughtered simply to make a cow lactate - so I'd be a hypocrite if I were to voice my feelings of unease too vehemently.....

[ahf]

They they shouldn't be breeding if they can't be responsible for the negative outcome. It's not all wine and roses.

So, in other words, if you have to work off the farm to support your breeding business, then you have right to be IN the breeding business?

Well, at least I know where I stand in your world.

[chaltagor]

So, in other words, if you have to work off the farm to support your breeding business, then you have right to be IN the breeding business?

Well, that would fall under the "being responsible" part. Having a business plan that keeps all outcomes in mind, not putting two horses together and hoping for the best. No one forces anyone to breed horses, so no one is "forced" to get a nursemare either.

[Ladybug Hill]

I can't quite understand the whole nursemare business (and that is basically what it is) and we don't seem to have it over here, but whilst I do have a problem with foals being produced purely to make a mare give milk for someone else's foal (basically as a necessary but not exactly wanted by-product) , I happily drink milk / eat cheese and calves are produced and usually at least half slaughtered simply to make a cow lactate - so I'd be a hypocrite if I were to voice my feelings of unease too vehemently.....

You are sooooo right on here. Not to go off topic, but I can guarantee that many here drink milk, eat cheese or use dairy products in some way. Those calves are usually separated at birth so that that milk can be given to us humans. The resulting calves are raised separately in small stalls or hutches and bottle fed. Their life is quite miserable at first. Many get sick.

I am not saying that I am in total agreement with the nurse mare thing either. It would depend on how it was done.

Can the mares just be drug induced to lactate? Is the milk quality not as good then?

[ahf]

Well, that would fall under the "being responsible" part. Having a business plan that keeps all outcomes in mind, not putting two horses together and hoping for the best.

No business plan on earth can forecast and accomodate every conceivable loss that can arise in a single breeding season. How long have you been breeding? Business plans are essential, but they are not crystal balls.

I bucket fed, and put 15k into, a foal with no prospects for performance, but was way too "healthy" to consider euthanizing. I then gave him away for a dollar. I think I'm plenty responsible. Just not particularly quick to condemn.

[meredithbarlow]

Omg, I REALLY should be staying out of this. But oh well. My 2 year old was a product of the nurse mare foal industry and he had it terrible. Not only was he sold at the ripe old age of 2 weeks, but he was sold to a collector who (did and still does) claim to be a rescue. He was bottle fed for a while (til it got to be too much work) , then along with the WAY TOO MANY other foals he was turned out onto pasture. When the pasture went away he and his buddies were give the nastiest round bales you've ever seen. They starved- 3of them died. They got upper respiratory infections, and had intestinal parasites. We rescued as many as we could and got the state vet involved. If some idiot wasn't trying to make a buck none of that would have happened. Yes, this person would have ended up with other horses, but one would assume not a bunch of orphan foals.

Why orphan a foal, so you can provide a mother for another and raise that one by hand???? WHY NOT--- raise the original by hand?? Or "if you don't have time" as some of you are whining... hire someone else to do it. Geesh!

[Hillside H Ranch]

Okay, I promised to stay out of this, but here I am again. I'm sure we are each going to keep our own opinion on this subject, but I have to address a few points. I do believe that if you are going to be a responsible breeder you have to take into account that you may end up with an orphan and you may have to raise it by hand. That is just one of the many terrible things that can happen with breeding and if you aren't prepared for it then you need to re-think your plan. My husband and I own our own very hectic business (a veterinary clinic), which does have its benefits. But, we work 6 or 7 days a week, I take my 18 month old daughter to work with me every day and I'm responsible for the care of our own horses (22 head) plus client mares in for breeding. I feed, medicate and care for all the horses on our farm. I do all the mowing, he does all the other up-keep. The only outside help we have with the farm is a part time stall cleaner and someone else cuts our hay. We also have cattle to look after. I am responsible for training all new clinic employees, etc. I ride 3 times a week and am responsible for working the young horses, as well. And I have hand raised two orphans. My point is that I understand where you all are coming from with your busy lives. I really and truly do. But just because you are busy doesn't abdicate you of your responsibilties. And busy-ness is not an excuse for perpetuating an industry that undeniably contributes to the flood of horses looking for a home. Breeding and horses are a passion for me and I am committed to doing what it takes to raising one of these amazing animals in the healthiest way possible, but I draw the line at doing it at the expense of another horse.

[chaltagor]

No business plan on earth can forecast and accomodate every conceivable loss that can arise in a single breeding season. How long have you been breeding? Business plans are essential, but they are not crystal balls.

Of course not, but a breeder doesn't need a crystal ball to imagine there might be health complications with the mare, like she might die. I would think that would be a concern. I don't breed horses, but I have bred other animals, and that was always on my mind. What I was trying to say is if someone breeds horses and they don't realize and prepare for problems they shouldn't be breeding.

[Waterwitch]

I can't quite understand the whole nursemare business (and that is basically what it is) and we don't seem to have it over here, but whilst I do have a problem with foals being produced purely to make a mare give milk for someone else's foal (basically as a necessary but not exactly wanted by-product) , I happily drink milk / eat cheese and calves are produced and usually at least half slaughtered simply to make a cow lactate - so I'd be a hypocrite if I were to voice my feelings of unease too vehemently.....

The difference, at least to me, is that their are not unwanted calves filling the marketplace and rescues that are already overloaded with other unwanted, randomly bred, calves. The calves are a product unto themselves. Perhaps it would be different if the nursemares had the breeding or credentials to be RIDING (or driving) horses and produced marketable foals for the market they enter. But...it still wouldn't justify valuing the life of one foal over another. THAT is just another example of that uniquely human attribute...greed.

[rainechyldes]

I feel that you should do what you want as long as you take care of the side effects, such as the foals.

Case made thank you.
I never said that I felt nursemare foals were abused, anywhere..
The point I made, you just made again for me, in so many words.
It's ok because...

Side effects- Is that what we are now calling irresponsible breeding?

It makes no matter to me really. I have no dog in this fight, I've raised a foal here and there, I've lost a mare myself. It never crossed my mind to find a nursemare, I refuse to support that type of operation. I can't rationlize away the *side effect* sorry.

[Black Forest]

In the UK there is an incredible lady called Johanna E. Vardon, MBE who has devoted her life to matching orphan foals and mares that have lost their foal.

http://www.englandsequestrian.co.uk/index.pl?cat_id=25&issue_id=3&art_id=1013

http://www.nationalfoalingbank.com/

[Fairview Horse Center]

There are MANY retired, mid twenties broodmares that would make super companions for orphan foals. Fill up an igloo cooler 2x per day, and allow these old girls to enjoy being a mom again.

[Fairview Horse Center]

What do you do when there is NO way to do it? Take a small breeding program run by say a wife and spouse with a 10 stall barn with about 8 horses. (Just picked numbers not actual barn or people or horses). They have to do everything themselves. Feed muck turn out ride care for. They probably wont have time to care for an orphan foal. So what should they do with it?

Big breeding operation this time. Lots of horse lots of pregnant mares and lots of mares with babies. What happens then? I doubt that they have the time with all those horses to bottle feed and hand care for one for 24 hours. It's most likely a business to them not a nursing center.


Or try this: Big farm, 27 stalls, 3 run-in sheds, 34 horses, + 6 foals, husband and wife do it all, except for 2 teenagers that help out on the weekends. Work includes mucking, bushhogging, repairs, office work, scheduling vet and farrier work, foaling out 6 broodmares, standing 2 stallions to the public, collecting themselves, MORE mares shipping in for live cover/management. 2 day old orphan.

Been there, with ZERO experience with an orphan.

Was it hard? You bet! Within a week, the routine was pretty settled. Would I have still had a week of intense watching with a nursemare, You bet!

You can expect a problem that may need a week of intense watching, checking, medicating, ANYTIME you have horses. ALL foals take pretty close watching for a few days.

[rcloisonne]

In the UK there is an incredible lady called Johanna E. Vardon, MBE who has devoted her life to matching orphan foals and mares that have lost their foal.
That's exactly what I've envisioned. I too had a mare whose full term foal had to be euthanized shortly after birth due to an extreme birth defect. The mare was so sad and freaked after we removed the foal (even though we left the dead foal in her stall for many hours per vet advice). She had always been a great mom with plenty of milk. I have no doubts she would have welcomed another foal. It is likely there were foals within traveling distance who'd recently lost their mothers. A hook up would have been a win-win situation.

Thanks for posting that, BF.

[Lenny]

Say a person is a breeder and has an orphan foal. He has no time for careing for this foal, but there are BUSINESSES out there to help big farms and the little breeder get through this. Besides the foal is better raised by a Nursemare. He calls for a Nursemare. Simple as that. Its his Business what he decides to do. Nobodys business but his. He doesn't have to answer to no one, here or anywhere at all.

[Esprit]

or simply to match foals with other orphans. I see no reason why one tragic loss has to be made into 2 more.

We did exactly this 3 years ago when I lost Bravado's dam at 5 weeks. Draygonfyne lost her mare when Sherman was only 24 hours old. We brought them togèther and they thrived beautifully. Its WAY môre work than getting a nursemare but these boys have blossomed into exquisite individuals. :yes: to me it would have been another tradgedy to have another foal lose its dam when i could bucket feed with the ámazing products they have on the Market now.

With the loss of one of our foáls last year because of a plasma transfusion :cry: we started up a colostrum bank here in ontario for foáls requiring that critical start.

You do need them to be socialized with horses and our broodmare Apt to Win toòk care of them with her own foal and kept them in line on the manners front.

You can do it yourself without a nursemare but its a huge investment of time and energy. I as well as many òthers on this board are proof of that. :)

[rigoletto]

I am raising two nursemare foals right now. They are 10 weeks old and we have had them since they were 12 days old. There are actually more nursemare farms than one might think. A group in Ohio, Last Chance Ranch, rescues about 150 of these little guys a year. My foals came from a small private nursemare farm in KY. The guy had nobody lined up to take the foals so we took them in. They're lovely foals, one a flashy little QH colt, the other a Standardbred cross filly. They had a few rough days at first - hated the milk replacer, got terrible diarrhea, the colt dehydrated and was on IV fluids for 2 days.. They were also afraid of people and not at all accustomed to being handled. We put them on fresh goat's milk and they are now thriving. They follow me around the field, run to the fence nickering when they see my car.. It helped to have two so they had each other for comfort and as playmates. I spent, and continue to spend, a lot of time with them. We recently turned them out with three pensioned broodmares who, after first looking at them like they had never seen foals before (surprising and comical), have now accepted the babies as part of their herd.

The whole process is heartbreaking as far as I am concerned. That said, my husband runs a TB farm and needs nursemares from time to time if a mare dies or is unable to raise her own foal for some reason. If this was our farm and they were our horses, I would certainly try to do without nursemares. The people we have gotten nursemares from seem to take pretty good care of them, though the mares from one place came in quite thin. It breaks my heart to send them home.

There are a couple of big TB farms in KY that actually have their own bands of nursemares (one has 34). They breed them well so that the babies are nice sport horse prospects. Still the process is abhorrant to me. There are still nursemare outfits that dump their foals at auction - there is a thread on the Off Course forum now about this very thing (its called "Foal rescued from yard sale" or something like that.) It should be illegal to dump young foals (or any foals) at auction like that. Apparently, there is also a market for foal "pelts" and there are some people who bring the babies to tanners to make "pony skin" products out of. I just learned about this horrific process recently when researching how to care for my nursemare foals. Its amazing to me how many people are unaware of the whole nursemare business and what a dark side it can have.

[Lenny]

My main objection is to the fact that a mom is separated from her very young foal for the convenience of others. There is nothing "uninformed or misinformed" about that. The foals may very well be nice, useful, well cared for babies, but they are still a by product, and both mom and baby have to go thru a very sad loss.

Now if you tell me the nursemares are NEVER taken away until their own foal is 3 or 4 months old, I would have a lot less of a problem with the industry.

The Nursemare is seperated from her foal when she is needed. Be it at the age of one week ( wich is not the norm) or an older age.say three weeks and up. FOR THE CONVENIENCE OF OTHERS..... I see no convenience in looseing a Broodmare,wich could be a loved member of a family. A loved member that has left that family a part of herself. So its a convenience for that family to want the best for that foal. To be raised by another horse so it can end up being very much like the loved broodmare that has passed. Ther is no convenience in raiseing a foal with a Nursemare, Its just the best way. You may call the Nursemares Foal a by-product. That may be true at some farms that don't practice a good program! I could show you a Hanovarian / App stallion That was a Nursemare Foal. He has about 5 different trotts moves like the wind with the determination of the great chief Crazy Horse. Most all his foals are movers like him. Many nice jumpers have come from the Nursemare foals. like the 17 hand Hanovarian App that just came back from the trainer. He can Hunt,can event,or go dressage. Another that won't slip on wet footing. Theres more too. No there not just by-products, they have many uses and I would put them up against some of the well intended Horses out of the breeding farms. When the foal is seperated from its mother, this is done in the trailer at the Nursemares destenation, it will holler for her. This is natrual and it happens for a short time. the trailer starts to mave and the foal is quiet as when its mother was there. Sandy has a bucket of Milk replacer in the trailer. When she gets home the Milk is gone in most cases.NO Not spilled,the foal drank it. Or most of it. Then the foal is kept seperate for a few more hours, just to make sure its drinking. Then it is put with a nother foal that is drinking milk out of a bucket. Foals don't miss their mothers unless someone keeps them by themselves without a buddy. As far as the Nursemare going through a sad loss., She has a foal and thats all she cares about.The one she left in the trailer isn't even a tiny tought in her mind. This foal at her feet is all she cares about. The foal that has gone home isn't worrieing about the mother left behind, the only thing in its mind is where the next meal comes from. After getting fed and has a nice place to sack out, a companion to be with, Food is always there. They don't care about mother ,they care about food. In all the years (30) I have never seen a foal come home and get depressed over not haveing a mother. Sandy has mares that become baby sitters for her foals.Sometimes there is a Mare home that someone has bought her foal and the switch is made. Nope I never seen a foal or the nursemare get franticly distressed over maybe someday they will have to part for someones convience.

[Fairview Horse Center]

The Nursemare is seperated from her foal when she is needed. Be it at the age of one week ( wich is not the norm) or an older age

She is ALREADY needed. Why is one foal's need more important than another that IS her real baby.

Ther is no convenience in raiseing a foal with a Nursemare, Its just the best way.

Best for HER foal too.

When the foal is seperated from its mother, this is done in the trailer at the Nursemares destenation, it will holler for her. This is natrual and it happens for a short time. the trailer starts to mave and the foal is quiet as when its mother was there.

Absolutely HORRIBLE! What incredible stress for a week or 2 old foal to have to be shipped many hours, have its mom yanked away, and then shipped more totally alone. SHAME ON YOU! SHAME on Sandy's Nursemare service, and any others that operate like that.

Foals don't miss their mothers unless someone keeps them by themselves without a buddy. As far as the Nursemare going through a sad loss., She has a foal and thats all she cares about.The one she left in the trailer isn't even a tiny tought in her mind. This foal at her feet is all she cares about. The foal that has gone home isn't worrieing about the mother left behind, the only thing in its mind is where the next meal comes from.

If you truly believe that, then you know NOTHING about horses.

They don't care about mother ,they care about food.

What a terrible heartless industry, run by heartless people. I guess that is what you have to think so you can look yourself in the mirror.

[Lenny]

Well, now after reading most of this subject I don't think I will try to answer anymore. This is just about the same thing.Over and Over again. I would wonder how many here are Breeders. I see some that say that they never bred a horse.How many others here even know what the breeding industry is all about. I see some even say others shouldn't even be a breeder. Or at least it looks that way. If a person says they or their farm doesn't have time for an orphan and they would get a Nursemare to care for that Orphan, So be it. Thats that. All these people that have raised orphans themselves (and some look like they want a pat on the back) So be it. hope they never have to do it again. Some hve given acounts of their working on their farm dawn to dark. Been there done that. and then some. This is just another Now if, maybe if, so if and just if. IF is the word of the day. Everyone has a solution to this subject (Nursemares) Fact is none are going to change anything (tough I would like to see all Nursemares act responsible.) The Nursemare Business is a Business and has been sinse the begining of the horse industry. Without it?? the amount of horses in this country wouldn't change. People will still bring them in from accross the pond.(big numbers I might add) Breeding farms will still breed. The backyard breeder will still breed. Its some peoples passion to breed. There will always be the owner of a horse that will breed because their mare is so sweet. There will always be horses, more than less. The cattle industry isn't of subject because we eat them and keep the numbers down. Horses are rescued and even the ones that can't walk are rescued or put in fields to save them. Emotional people cause Emotional topics. No the Nursemare industry isn't the culprit here. Like I said in the previous post its people with emotions out of control that like to talk about the big bad Nursemare industry. And again most of them have most likely never seen a Mare Foal. The way sandy and I see this, its not just supplying Nursemares to those in need, its supplying companin Foals,Colostrum, Advice to those trying to raise their own foal.Advice to those that are out there in the boonies with a Mare that has lost its foal and they are trying to put their foal on her. Advice to those with rejector mares that have no way of getting a Nursemare. The hows and don'ts Just plain help when someone needs it. Not just Nursemares. Enough for me, as it gets pretty bad when you keep hearing " I don't understand " Or " I don't know how"

[Hillside H Ranch]

I think Lenny summed it up with this statement " the nursemare business is a business and has been since the beginning of the horse industry". And I believe that is the problem; most nursemare programs have their eye on the bottom line and not neccessarily what is best for the living, breathing animals they are responsible for bringing into this word.

FHC-Bravo! I agree 110%. How many breeders here would do that to a foal? I hope not many.

[Lenny]

She is ALREADY needed. Why is one foal's need more important than another that IS her real baby. Everyone to his or her opinion...BUT
If you can't see that and the whole reason for a nursemare industry. Well I can't help you.


Best for HER foal too.



Absolutely HORRIBLE! What incredible stress for a week or 2 old foal to have to be shipped many hours, have its mom yanked away, and then shipped more totally alone. SHAME ON YOU! SHAME on Sandy's Nursemare service, and any others that operate like that.
No stress, they lay there sleeping most of the way home. We never had a problem shipping foals back home. Most all are over 2 weeks olds and sandy likes to keep the younger ones close to home so the trip isn;t that long. Like the older ones go to Va and Maine and the younger ones 2-3 week olds stay close to home. AS far as yanked away??? Hold on those emotions..


If you truly believe that, then you know NOTHING about horses.

I know a horse is a horse. I more than likely foaled out more than you. I have my faviorits in the herd but they are still animals.

What a terrible heartless industry, run by heartless people. I guess that is what you have to think so you can look yourself in the mirror.

I don't consider myself heartless and I know for sure that Sandy isn't heartless. She uses her mares to save foals. I have no problem looking in a mirror. I am a good looing guy at my age, was handsome once. Sandy is on the road with a Nursemare for PA. I will have to feed those poor foals. Then look in the mirror to see how heartless I am. Oh ya They have no flies bothering them as they have a Fly control system in their barn. Now tell me I'm killing them with chemical fly spray. I'm sorry your so emotional about what I say. I know it to be true as I have witnessed what we do and how the animals act. Horses that is. I know how our mares and foals act. With or without their Moms Or Babies. Sorry its you that don't know. Please get a grip. Please don't get mad at me for defending myself and what I say.

[Hillside H Ranch]

Lenny
Just a few quick questions.
How much does it cost to rent the nurse mare?
How many foals a year does Sandy's produce (from the nurse mares)?
Do you all have your own stallion that you are breeding to?
Do you sell most of your foal by word of mouth, or do you do other advertising?

[chaltagor]

If you truly believe that, then you know NOTHING about horses.

Well, I'd say anyone who thinks appaloosas are all "war ponies" and don't slip on wet footing fits that bill. Talk about being misinformed and emotional about horses. :rolleyes:

Here's some of the foals. Funny, but they all seem to have a mare by their side. http://community-2.webtv.net/FancySpots/FancySpots/index.html This is from another forum that Len posts on, and I think it's kosher to post here as it was from a nursemare discussion thread JUST like this one. :yes: It seems that anyone who has never had an orphan foal is not entitled to have any opinions about the subject, and any opinions that we do have are "emotional" and driven by what we see on "rescue sites" if they differ from Lenny's. We couldn't possibly come by our thoughts on our own. :uhoh:

[Annetta]

Sorry, Lenny, you make yourself or the nursemare business any good with any of those posts, at least not in my eyes. and ya, I'm a breeder, & have been for many years. Some nursemare businesses may be less uncaring of their nursemare foals than others are, but that still doesn't make any of them wonderful in my view.

Yikes. The foal gets hauled with it's mother to the farm, even if it's hours away? Then hauled back again by itself with it's pail of milk replacer for company? How nice. Foal care at its finest, for sure.

edited to add: chaltagor--I was thinking exactly the same thing about people who consider appaloosas to be non-slip war ponies. Too funny. I guess I have a pint sized non-skid war pony here, but I'm not sure if he counts for anything at all because he's not a nursemare foal???

[Fairview Horse Center]

I have a tough time believing that a breeder could stand there, and KNOW that a tiny foal is on that trailer, watch the nursemare service off load the nursemare, and HEAR the tiny baby calling for its mom, and allow them to pull out with that baby calling for its Mama, KNOWING what they have just done to that foal. :no: :cry:

BTW, yes, I am a breeder, foaled out many, many, mares. And yes, have raised that 2 day old orphan without a nursemare. I am always happy to help others by offering advice & tips, etc. I would have no problem raising another one, and it will be much easier next time.

[Kinsella]

Lenny, give it up. They are RIGHT and nothing you can say or do will ever change their minds. So be it.

I will say about the mare going to PA - her birth foal is asleep on the trailer, parked in the shade under a tree. He whinnied for about 5 minutes, then settled down - no worse than any other weaning. He's 2 months old and has a buddy waiting for him at home. The mare is in great shape, and has already let the orphaned foal nurse.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I will say about the mare going to PA - her birth foal is asleep on the trailer, parked in the shade under a tree. He whinnied for about 5 minutes, then settled down.

Terrified and exhausted from the trip, I am sure.

[pinecone]

Here is another thing to think about.

Several of you have discussed concern about the orphan foals which are the side effect of the nursemare industry. You've expressed concern about them being of lesser quality, flooding the market, being traumatized by the seperation from their mother, etc.

Several years ago I had a farm manager come to work for me who'd previously worked on a big Thoroughbred racing farm. That farm was a big business, they had mares specifically intended to be their own nursemares. Each year those mares would be bred, the next year they would foal. As the valuable racing mares would foal, and would be due to be rebred, their foals would be taken away from them and put with the nursemares, and the nursemare foals would be euthanized, and apparently nobody blinked an eye, it was all an accepted part of the business. This was several years ago, and I don't know the farm of if they still do this, it was a large part of the reason why this farm manager had left. However the discussion of what happens to the orphan nursemare foals made me think of this. When someone worries about the lesser quality foals being produced as a side effect of the nursemare industry, and worries about the market being flooded with low quality horses, remember that there are worse alternatives, and that some farms consider the nursemare foal as a disposable by-product of doing business. For a lot of people that is all horses are, business, and they think just like Lenny, or worse.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I prefer a bit later, closer to 6 months. And on the TB farm, we weaned by removing one mare at a time from the field until the last mare to foal is the last mare in the field with all the babies.

That is a mighty different form of weaning that you are saying is fine now for that nursemare's baby. I believe that OP was talking about weaning at 3-4 months? THAT was too early, but 2 months is not?

[On the Farm]

All I can say about Sandy's Nursemares is that they were there when we needed them. And for the self-righteous here, NO, they didn't drag a foal off a mare for us, but they did have the proper contacts to come up with a mare (on extremely short notice) who had lost her foal and still had milk. We were able to raise that foal with a mare and in a social setting with other mares and foals.

Some people here need to worry more about how they live their own lives and not so much as to how others live theirs. My experience in life has been that the self-righteous are usually the furthest FROM righteousness.

[Kinsella]

I never said 3-4 months was too early, I said *I* PREFER later. You know what? This is pointless. We are never going to agree. Your business is your business, mine is mine. Let's leave it at that, shall we?

[Fairview Horse Center]

Some people here need to worry more about how they live their own lives and not so much as to how others live theirs. My experience in life has been that the self-righteous are usually the furthest FROM righteousness.

Nope, just not going to look the other way, and pretend nothing bad is happening. Not going to be told to shut up either. We are discussing a topic, and obviously we differ.

[Annetta]

I never said 3-4 months was too early, I said *I* PREFER later. Ah, you prefer weaning later than 3 to 4 months....but if there's money to be made by taking a foal off the mare at 2 months (or maybe younger if the greed...oops, I mean need!...is there) then it's perfectly okay to "wean" at 2 months. Gotcha.

Yep, to each his own, it's your business for sure, but those of us that disagree will certainly discuss it and voice our opinions on it here as we please.

[Pronzini]

Can I interject a note of crass reality to this discussion? One of the most valuable mares in the world, Toussaud, has to use nurse mares because she is physically fragile and reputed to be a lousy mother anyway. Last year she had an A P Indy filly.

Now it would be nice to believe that some mixed foal out of Betsy the Belgian is just as important as one out of a Broodmare of the Year who has had 6 stakes winners but let's be real here, shall we? There's a reason why big TB farms use them.

On a brighter note, I know a couple of nurse mares personally through the farm and there's a real market for their foals. Their foals are by some of the best TB stallions in the state and buyers come looking for them because they make spiffy little horses. That's more than I can say for some people's backyard breeding programs.

[chaltagor]

Some people here need to worry more about how they live their own lives and not so much as to how others live theirs.

We're not talking about living our lives here, we're talking about the ethics of orphaning one foal to feed another, the foal as a by-product, and the nursemare industry adding to overpopulation of horses in the States.

[Hillside H Ranch]

Can I interject a note of crass reality to this discussion? One of the most valuable mares in the world, Toussaud, has to use nurse mares because she is physically fragile and reputed to be a lousy mother anyway. Last year she had an A P Indy filly.

Now it would be nice to believe that some mixed foal out of Betsy the Belgian is just as important as one out of a Broodmare of the Year who has had 6 stakes winners but let's be real here, shall we? There's a reason why big TB farms use them.

On a brighter note, I know a couple of nurse mares personally through the farm and there's a real market for their foals. Their foals are by some of the best TB stallions in the state and buyers come looking for them because they make spiffy little horses. That's more than I can say for some people's backyard breeding programs.
I don't think the "value" of a life is determined by its monetary worth. I think that is the fundamental difference in opinion here.
I understand that my thoughts and opinions aren't going to sway anyone who believes that the nurse mare industry is all rainbows and butterflies. I do believe that a lot of these farms (and once again, I didn't say all) do contribute to the "unwanted horse" epidemic that this country is facing and that everyone goes on and on about on during the slaughter discussions. Yet many here feel that it is justified to pull these young babies off their dams to be hand-raised so that their baby can have a mom, so that they aren't inconvenienced. And I think it is human nature to value your horse over a horse that you will never have to meet and who is farm removed from your daily life. And I think that sucks.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Can I interject a note of crass reality to this discussion? One of the most valuable mares in the world, Toussaud, has to use nurse mares because she is physically fragile and reputed to be a lousy mother anyway. Last year she had an A P Indy filly.

Now it would be nice to believe that some mixed foal out of Betsy the Belgian is just as important as one out of a Broodmare of the Year who has had 6 stakes winners but let's be real here, shall we? There's a reason why big TB farms use them.

If they know they will need to use a nursemare(s), they can follow the inducing lactation protocol and there is no need to breed these nursemares. You can just induce them to come into milk each year. No foal that has to lose its mom is ever needed. http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/aaepresort/2006/Daels1.pdf

[Lenny]

I don't want to try to change minds here. They already know what they feel. I know the facts about how we handle Nursemares and their foals. How we do it is all that counts. I could care less how some here think anymore. If their brains are that brainwashed, Then I don't even want to discuss this anymore. It won't do any good. Like I said , I know how Sandy Runs her opperation, Nobody has to believe me. BUT anyone wanting to see some nice healthy happy foals, their welcome to come to the farm. Its been an experence though, Now all I have to do is see some Foal in a trailer Jumping up and down screeming I WANT MY MOMMY and I will know its a Nursemare Foal. Now lets not forget that foals don't get trailered for any distance. Thats done all the time. Look at the PMUs comeing down from canada. I know of a foal that went to Va and then to NC. then all the way back to NY. it was a mo. old. Guess what, the foal lived. never had a problem. I just can't get it, where you people come up with all this garbage. You slosh it around with each other. I know what we do and how our Animals are taken care of. What other nursemare Farms do is their business. KINSELLA, Thanks for the update. I just got back from the farm and all the foals are doing just fine. Now for the look in the mirror. Yup its me. I don't appreciate being called heartless and I don't appreciate Sandys Nursemare Service being called that either. I can't do anything about that as people can say anything they want. I know better and so do lots of Sandys clients. Say what you want about the App, they make better moms than any breed. Any body here remember an App called Susquash? Have fun dreaming up some more terrable things we do to Nursemare Foals. Ah, yes, there goes a trailer with Maine Plates, I don't see or hear any foals screeming I want my Mommy. Maybe the next one. Oh by the way is there any other Nursemare service or farm on the net explaining how their operation works. Does that tell you anything?

[On the Farm]

We're not talking about living our lives here, we're talking about the ethics of orphaning one foal to feed another, the foal as a by-product, and the nursemare industry adding to overpopulation of horses in the States.

Let's discuss then. How many mares are utilized in the nursemare industy? I don't know myself.

The point of weaning was brought up. Which is more traumatic for a mare's offspring, weaning at two months of age or let's say weaning at two years old (I actually know someone who has that policy.)

As far as breeding horses in general goes, let's question the ethics of it for any reason. All in all, is bringing a horse into this world for the sheer vanity of winning a ribbon, winning a dollar, or for simply having a horse to look at in a pasture any more or less ethical than the nursemare industry? If there's an overpopulation of horses, then breeding for any purpose adds to that population. Or let's take artificial insemination and embryo transfer. I tend to believe that the latter is one of the most unethical practices in breeding and the former has it's history rooted in the desire to put as many horses on the ground as possible.

That's the point of my comment which evidently went WAY over the heads of you and others.

Again, let's have fun and discuss.

[Esprit]

Well, now after reading most of this subject I don't think I will try to answer anymore. ...All these people that have raised orphans themselves (and some look like they want a pat on the back) So be it. hope they never have to do it again.

I sure don't need a pat on the back as I'm sure the others who have brought up orphans don't. Saving and nurturing a little soul through a difficult time is satisfying enough for me :) :yes: and yep, I sure hope that I never have to go through it again, moreover, I wish that no foal had to go through that separation anxiety when they lose their mothers, tragically or intentionally at a far too early age.

I encourage bringing a mare who has lost her foal and an orphan together if that's possible, that for sure is a win win :) but if it can't be, then yes, even those who work full time and run a farm with all that entails can still bring along an orphan themselves, if they have the determination, that same determination that they had to breed their mare in the first place. But that's my way of thinking...

[mairzeadoats]

Well, now after reading most of this subject I don't think I will try to answer anymore.

Um, Lenny, you've "answered" about 3 or 4 times now since promising to give it a rest.

Face it...your business is considered an ugly one by the breeders here, and for a reason. And the "service" you provide is not truly necessary for those who do their homework up front. With proper planning, there are options available that don't involve creating one orphan foal to "save" another. Heck, all you have to do is read this forum for one season and you'll know many of the options and have your igloo ready.

[chaltagor]

As far as breeding horses in general goes, let's question the ethics of it for any reason. All in all, is bringing a horse into this world for the sheer vanity of winning a ribbon, winning a dollar, or for simply having a horse to look at in a pasture any more or less ethical than the nursemare industry? If there's an overpopulation of horses, then breeding for any purpose adds to that population.

You could say "It's everything or nothing" for just about any argument. This thread is not about the ethics of breeding. You're getting into animal rights territory, and I'd rather keep this to orphaned nursemare foals, etc. It's obviously a touchy subject to some. I think of it as a dirty little secret of the equine breeding world and have strong opinions of it even though I will never breed horses.

I used to breed several different types of animals, and stopped as I realized I was responsible for every life I brought into the world as long as that life was alive. I'm sure many will think that's extreme or nutty; that's how I feel. This is why I get angry at the thought of week old foals at auction. I know that's the extreme, but it's a certainty that it happens, and it's from this industry directly linked to breeders who have "valuable" orphaned foals. I think it's a valid discussion.

[Lenny]

If they know they will need to use a nursemare(s), they can follow the inducing lactation protocol and there is no need to breed these nursemares. You can just induce them to come into milk each year. No foal that has to lose its mom is ever needed. http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/aaepresort/2006/Daels1.pdf

To the one so full of knowledge about horses. Induceing lactation is for those that know what their doing.Its not for everyone. You have to know the mare and what she will do after comeing into milk. All mares don't make good mothers. Even experenced Nursemares will reject a foal after going through induced lactation. It can be dangerious for the inexperenced. Sandy has in fact done this practice for many years. With a herd of 65 we never have more that 30-35 foals for sale. I wouldn't be so fast to recomend this practice unless you know exactly that its going to work. Of course you do.

[Fairview Horse Center]

The other thing that would make good discussion is why the nursemare industry does not use the protocol to induce lactation. It has been HIGHLY proven to work, even on mares that were not bred to be nursemares. So why don't they use it? Surely it would save a lot of money, and time to go that route. Sandy and Lenny have known about this system for over 4 years, yet they still breed those mares 40? each year, and purposely orphan those foals. There IS a better way. Use those "known" nursemares to just induce lactation. They have to have had one foal, but that is surely much better than dozens. PLUS, without having to carry that pregnancy around for 11 months, they would be much easier to feed.

[Lenny]

Um, Lenny, you've "answered" about 3 or 4 times now since promising to give it a rest.

Face it...your business is considered an ugly one by the breeders here, and for a reason. And the "service" you provide is not truly necessary for those who do their homework up front. With proper planning, there are options available that don't involve creating one orphan foal to "save" another. Heck, all you have to do is read this forum for one season and you'll know many of the options and have your igloo ready.

I'm going. What breeders, most have said they will never breed. Sorry none of your options work. Not even the igloo. Our foals drink from small tubs, they have free choice and its gone about afternoon. then their given fresh milk.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Sorry none of your options work. Not even the igloo.

Nope, you are right, it will never work. :winkgrin: :lol:

[Kinsella]

What do you breed for specifically? Dressage? Hunters?

The nursemare standing here today is a THIRD GENERATION nursemare. And she WAS induced into lactation last year for an orphaned foal. Something I have heard from the nursemare farms I have dealt with is that generally the fillies out of nursemares make good nursemares themselves. Why do you think they keep the fillies?

And if you want to bitch and moan about the overpopulation of horses, look to the QH industry, the TB industry, the WB industry (especially in Germany, but those don't count do they, because they aren't born here in the US). I bet the total number of nursemare foals born each year is less than a half of 1% of foals from any of those industries.

[Lenny]

The other thing that would make good discussion is why the nursemare industry does not use the protocol to induce lactation. It has been HIGHLY proven to work, even on mares that were not bred to be nursemares. So why don't they use it? Surely it would save a lot of money, and time to go that route. Sandy and Lenny have known about this system for over 4 years, yet they still breed those mares 40? each year, and purposely orphan those foals. There IS a better way. Use those "known" nursemares to just induce lactation. They have to have had one foal, but that is surely much better than dozens. PLUS, without having to carry that pregnancy around for 11 months, they would be much easier to feed.

But first, This induced lactation, like I said in another post isn't for everyone. Including the Nursemare industry. I don't know how the others work ,But Sandy gets a call say at 3 am. the Nursemare has to be on the road in aprox 4-5 hrs or less depending. No... doing this induced lactation ahead of time is't going to cut it either. You have to have foals nurseing those mares. You just don't bring them into milk and stack them up until needed. Highly proven, ha, tell that to Cornell.They had some real winners. Tell that to some that ended up in the hospital. Your a dreamer and I'm Gone this time.

[Blueskidoo]

So for all of you that think every life is "worth" the same, do you sell all your foals at the same price? Pay exactly the same stud fee for every foal?

You know the WHO says human children should be brestfed till at least age two. Do you give the same crap to your friends who feed formula, send their kids to day-care or leave them with a sitter before the age of 2? After all, babies should be with their own mothers, right? If we can't stand to see a mare do a job and leave her foal to mother another's foal, then you must be passing petitions to stop day care and pre-school for children under 2! Do you press for brestfeeding rights? Or are you making fun of people who are still nursing at the age of 9 months or a year?

Write any letters to infant formula companies because a cow isn't with her calf because her milk had to go to human kids? Or gee, her milk had to go to make that foal formula... so you prevented calves from being with their mothers to feed your foal, but because I inconvenienced a horse to feed my foal I am an evil, awful, heartless person.

And when people use those calves for veal and leather, well, they were not a byproduct, they were a product, so that's ok, but when a foal is used for pony-skin or slaughtered for the equivilant of veal, well that's just terrible! It's just awful! How dare they produce those unwanted foals and then want to use them for that! So what are they? Unwanted? or just wanted for something you find distasteful so therefor its not ok...

Oh yeah, and when perhaps there is something even more important going on with someone else, I am so sure you are all going to tell your child, "no, I'm sorry, the specialist had a cancellation tomorrow, and we could drop everything and drive all night to get there and start getting you help and treatment, but I don't have anyone to stay at the farm all the time for the next three days because the orphan foal needs his milk mixed and someone to keep an eye on his cooler 5-6 times a day in case he breaks it, so instead of helping you stop suffering now, we are going to have to wait for our already schedualed appointment in 6 weeks, because I could have had a nurse mare and been more focused on you, but I didn't."

With all your pro breastfeeding, dairy-free, baby-sitter free lives, I am surprised you have time to post here at all.

[Fairview Horse Center]

The igloo cooler is pretty indestructable. I used the same one for almost 5 months in a herd of 6 foals. Sent it along to his new home too. No need to check it 5 or 6 times a day.

Um, you may need to deal with a colicy horse for several days, so what are you going to do then?

Len, instead of dealing with those nursemare orphans that take up SO much of your time, you could be milking out a few mares so they were ready for that middle of the night call.

Inducing lactation does work. Probably would work even better on those 3rd generation nursemares. Then you could just breed enough to keep you with the next generation.

NO system is 100%. You will always have some % of failure - nursemares included.

The worst IMO is that the soon to be orphaned foals are taken along for the ride. So lets really stress them out before and after we take their Mamas away.

[Annetta]

So for all of you that think every life is "worth" the same, do you sell all your foals at the same price? Pay exactly the same stud fee for every foal?

You know the WHO says human children should be brestfed till at least age two. Do you give the same crap to your friends who feed formula, send their kids to day-care or leave them with a sitter before the age of 2? After all, babies should be with their own mothers, right? If we can't stand to see a mare do a job and leave her foal to mother another's foal, then you must be passing petitions to stop day care and pre-school for children under 2! Do you press for brestfeeding rights? Or are you making fun of people who are still nursing at the age of 9 months or a year?

Write any letters to infant formula companies because a cow isn't with her calf because her milk had to go to human kids? Or gee, her milk had to go to make that foal formula... so you prevented calves from being with their mothers to feed your foal, but because I inconvenienced a horse to feed my foal I am an evil, awful, heartless person.

And when people use those calves for veal and leather, well, they were not a byproduct, they were a product, so that's ok, but when a foal is used for pony-skin or slaughtered for the equivilant of veal, well that's just terrible! It's just awful! How dare they produce those unwanted foals and then want to use them for that! So what are they? Unwanted? or just wanted for something you find distasteful so therefor its not ok...

Oh yeah, and when perhaps there is something even more important going on with someone else, I am so sure you are all going to tell your child, "no, I'm sorry, the specialist had a cancellation tomorrow, and we could drop everything and drive all night to get there and start getting you help and treatment, but I don't have anyone to stay at the farm all the time for the next three days because the orphan foal needs his milk mixed and someone to keep an eye on his cooler 5-6 times a day in case he breaks it, so instead of helping you stop suffering now, we are going to have to wait for our already schedualed appointment in 6 weeks, because I could have had a nurse mare and been more focused on you, but I didn't."

With all your pro breastfeeding, dairy-free, baby-sitter free lives, I am surprised you have time to post here at all.

Do you have any idea of how all that made you sound? SNORK. Hope it made you feel better, cuz it did give me a good laugh at least. It didn't make any sense, really, but that's okay. Actually, now that you mention it though, since it's okay to haul young foals there's no reason that the caring parent couldn't make that all night run to the last minute opening at the specialist's clinic, AND continue to care for the orphan foal by hauling it along. No big deal to haul a trailer along, or if one happens to drive a large van, and if the foal is a small one, the foal can simply ride in the back of the van. Where there's a will there's a way. There ya go!

Too bad Lenny is gone, I wanted to point out that most here do seem to breed--I haven't seen all that many posts that specifically said the person doesn't breed or has never been a breeder. I guess we all get what we want out of our reading?


I also wanted to ask what self respecting PMU farm would ship a 1 month foal anywhere? And why? Unlike nursemare farms PMU farms do not early wean their foals...mares & babies are out on pasture until weaning in early September when foals are mostly 4 months old. Until the contract cuts this was the heart of PMU country here and I can't say as I've ever known any of the equine ranchers to ship month old foals. Sorry, I find that story a little hard to believe; I suspect it's one of those stories where the trip got longer & longer and the foal got younger & younger every time the story was retold. Those evil equine ranchers you know...

[siegi b.]

Darlyn - I suspect the reason the nursemare farms don't induce lactation is because it would be more expensive than just having their own stallion jump on the mare and then having some foals to sell at an auction. It's always money that makes people do things like that....

Reminds me of a situation at a safari park in southern Virginia where they have all kinds of "wild" animals. One of the species is llamas and they breed them every year. If the resulting baby is male it gets immediately separated from the dam and then they try to hand-raise it. The reason??? They only want to keep females for breeding, and the only way they can sell the males to pet-a-pet farms (their big customer) is if they're totally people oriented. Of course not many of the male babies make it....

Disposable life is what I call it.

[Fairview Horse Center]

There are so many other options than doing this to a mom and her baby.

My many people have mares that accept 2 foals. If a nursemare can be bred to improve the odds of her accepting another foal, surely they can be bred to improve the odds of her accepting a 2nd.

Spend the time to get her nursing both. This would give the foal a playmate. It may also help to find the nursemare foal a permanent home, as if you live with a foal for months, you may beome attached, and find a way to keep the foal, or a friend that is looking for another horse.

Make it a requirement. Since the n/m farn is not having the added expense of the milk replacer, they could even discount the cost of the nursemare.

[catknsn]

We had an orphan this year. Checked into the cost of nurse mares, decided they were atrociously priced, and raised the baby on milk replacer. Sure, he is a little potbellied, but he is just fine otherwise, good size and doing fabulously. I heard horror stories about what would happen if he didn't get real mares' milk. Turned out to be a bunch of hooey - he is fine.

http://www.pretzelkitty.com/images/horses/7807frankierun.jpg

And yes, a lot of old broodies will take on a 2nd baby. A friend of mine used to put her show mare's baby on her retired show mare every year, along with that mare's bio baby, and go back to the show ring. No babies suffered any ill effects. One is her breeding stallion today.

[inca]

Thank goodness I have never had to make the decision about what to do with an orphaned foal (knock on wood.)

However, I have an 8-5 (sometimes 8-6 or 7) job. There is NO WAY I could adequately raise an orphan. At least not for the first couple months when they are needing to eat every couple of hours. I don't see my job letting me take 2 months off to raise a foal.

I don't think there are too many things in life that are simply black or white.

[Cielo Azure]

I have a very nice, registered mare that was a nurse mare for two years before I bought her. The owners leased her for $3700. a year to a Thorobred farm, evidently one with a godd reputation.

When I got her, all the life juices had been sucked right out of her from nursing for two years straight. She looks better at 14 than she did at 12 years old, that is for darn sure.

The physical damage to the mares can be extensive, even if they are draft horses. It is one thing to use a nursemare for a orphaned foal, but in my mind you have crossed the line of good husbandry when you start orphaning foals on purpose.

So, I belive that it isn't just the foals that pay the price. And many foals do pay a price. Some mares will reject foals, some foals won't accept nursemares and some "bucket" foals just fail to thrive (ergo: die) due to being weaned too early.

Good for performance does not always equal good husbandry and no amount of aren't they "cute" all huddled together can convince me that this is a healthy husbandry practice for mares or foals.

[Fairview Horse Center]

However, I have an 8-5 (sometimes 8-6 or 7) job. There is NO WAY I could adequately raise an orphan. At least not for the first couple months when they are needing to eat every couple of hours.

With the Igloo cooler, you can fill it twice a day. The bigger one you can fill once a day. I chose to not use that one as it is so heavy to move. I usually filled mine at 7AM, 7 PM, and topped it before going to bed. The Buckeye milk stays VERY fresh in the igloo, so he always had a clean, fly free place to drink.

The first couple of days, you will have to monitor more closely, just like ANY foal. Within a few days, they will "get it" that they can nurse at will. I had a few neighborhood kids that jumped at the chance to feed the foal. A couple even slept in the barn for a few nights. I showed them how to mix the bottle, and went to sleep. They were sad when I got the igloo. The first day or so, he would only drink while I stood there. Then he got it.

If your schedule is tight, they will do fine for a few weeks on a couple of hours turnout in the evening when you get home. I turned mine out in the barnyard while I cleaned the stalls, etc. The best thing to do it put the orphan in a stall that he can touch noses thru a screen, or boards with another horse or foal/yearling filly - soon to be his companion. Walk the foal down the barn, and see what horse is totally smitten with him, talks to him. That is the one.

[spookhorse]

With the horse industry in KY, there are several nursemare farms around here. In working in the horse industry for most of the last 12 years, I can't say that I've ever seen a nursemare come in who was a pedigree'd anything and all the nursemares were supposed to come back to the nursemare owner having been bred. Didn't matter what the stud used was, didn't matter what the mare was, just that she got bred so the mare would have another foal the following year so the cycle could continue.

Last year, the nursemare we used at Shelley's was a nutty, ugly, gaited, pinto 14hh pony-something. Her feet couldn't be trimmed and it looked like they hadn't been done in some time before we got her. And she couldn't be caught without 5 people. Since our teaser was old and sterile, she taken over to an acquaintance's farm to breed to his shetland pony teaser.

The nursemare we are using this year is kinda cute, looks sorta like my 14hh grade TWH who is mistaken for morgan. Again, catching and hoof issues. We got a new teaser this year since old Mo can't perform anymore (he's 39, what do you expect?), so what does this probably grade mare of no real type get bred to? An arabian.

I worked a couple sales for Castleton when they were Standardbreds and they used a lot of nursemares. Many were used for ET, but sometimes owners would give a racemare a year off and breed her, then put the foal on a nursemare and send the mare back into training. Again, nursemares who needed to be put back into foal were bred to the farm teaser- a Standardbred/Morgan cross, he had been a nursemare foal himself. At least he had a famous sire- the great Bret Hanover.

Most of the big nursemare operations that I've run into around here are the same way. They use about any mare they can get and they aren't too worried about what the resulting foal is or what it will be eventually used for.

They usually tend to keep some of the fillies produced as future nursemares and sell the colts. Some of them bucket feed until they are weaning age then sell, some of them sell young privately and let the new owner bucket feed, some of them sell them too young at auction, I've seen it done all three ways. Oh yeah, and some of them are taking advantage of the rescues and letting the foals be "rescued" for a cost so they don't have to raise the foals. Kinda like the PMU industry...

[Waterwitch]

Oh yeah, and some of them are taking advantage of the rescues and letting the foals be "rescued" for a cost so they don't have to raise the foals. Kinda like the PMU industry...

I think the Nursemare industry is *far* more questionable ethically than the PMU industry.

As Fairview has repeatedly demonstrated, there is absolutely no need for a breeder to utilize, or feel they have to utilize, a nursemare for an orphan.

I would like to see sporthorse breeders boycott these businesses. The TB breeders will probably never stop using nursemares because the giant nurseries who routinely orphan TB foals are doing what they are doing based solely on their bottom line. But perhaps the TB and sporthorse breeders who "can afford to have" ethics could have some impact by formally and publicly denouncing this practice.

ETA: I have absolutely nothing against bringing together orphans with dams who have lost their foals naturally. It is the business of intentionally breeding nursemares and orphaning foals I object to.

[G Sunset]

With all your pro breastfeeding, dairy-free, baby-sitter free lives, I am surprised you have time to post here at all.

Blueskidoo, you summed up your post very nicely. Some people here 'think they know it all'
Well not every farm has the capabilities of raising orphans. Most of the 'Breeding Farms' that use Nursemares are Breeders of Race Horses. Have you ever seen people running on the track to get their horses to run after them. Hmmmmmmmm! Horses Need to be raised in company. They need the competion running and competing with each other. When raised by a Nursemare and not a people they learn at an early age to 'be a horse'. Most breeding farms have a foal or sometimes more that 'loose' their moms. It is not easy for people to play horsie and rear a foal. Yes, if they lost lots of mares and could group the foals together, would be one thing. But that does not happen. Horses learn from each other. !!!!!"Watch them sometime"!!!!! It's a 24/7 job. It has been mentioned here that once 'some' of you have raised an Orphan you would never do it again "for a reason". Watch a herd of horses, They teach each other lots of things besides providing food for their young. People are just not equipped to do that.

You say that Nursemare Farms do not care, their foals are raised in groups so they learn from each other. In a way they are providing the 24/7 attention to their foals, The foals learn herd ways and are raised in 'company'. Foals have a way of adapting to many situations. Okay some of those farms don't care what the mares are bred to, BUT some do. Many 'Nursemare' foals do end up being show quality animals.

About the induction of lactation. Yes, mares do come into milk, but it takes 7-8 days before a foal can be put on them. It takes until about day 21 before the shots can be stopped. Now you "Smart alex" who want such a perfect world for a horse say this protocol should be used. You don't know how the shots are painful and can make their neck swell up, but that is all right. Come on folks do your homework. Now you have a milking mare, BUT now you need to put a foal on her. I don't care how good a "NURSEMARE" is, it sometimes takes up to a week for her to accept a foal and in the hands of people who do not know what they are doing this can be very dangerous for the foal. Not to mention the drugs used for this purpose and not cheap.

NOW LET ME THINK, think. think. 24/7 is the thing I cannot get past. The orphan raised by PEOPLE alone, not in company (the picture of the igloo is fine, WHERE IS THE BABIES COMPANIONS?) This can be a dangerous situation. Most people think babies are sooooooo cute. Well they are when they are running around out in the field with their moms or foster moms. You cannot duplicate this. Now comes the foal, raised by people, it learned from its foster mom that it is okay to play with them and do horsie things. Hey folks this can be dangerous. They do get to grow up and and try having a thousand pound or better horse do the same things as a baby would.

HELLLLLOOOOO. The equine industry no matter how careful we are is a dangerous one. Let's not make it worse.
No matter how much "Some" of you object the Nursemare portion of it is here to stay. You either want to make use of it or not, is YOUR business.

(in whisper mode) I happen to know that Lenny is a, pretty good, and handsome guy. Don't knock his ideas. "If you ask 10 people their opinions YOU will recieve 10 different opinions. "Opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one.

[Fairview Horse Center]

hmm, Len, get tired of your screen name? :lol::lol::lol:

Where is my orphan with the Igloo's companions? Here are a few of them.

Freckles and Madison
Freckles and Aruba
Aruba's mom, Paris, Aruba, & Freckles (left to right)
Atoka and Freckles
Lots of mares and foals including the orphan Freckles

BTW, he was out with this herd from about day 3 or 4

[Annetta]

Most breeding farms have a foal or sometimes more that 'loose' their moms I have to ask...just how does a foal "loose" its mom? Mares lose foals, and sometimes foals lose their moms, but "loose" is what happens when horses eat too much rich green alfalfa hay, or maybe too much lush grass; you can turn your horse loose but I am never too sure how anyone can loose their keys. For a foal to loose its mom is pretty much like having a foal that is out of a stallion?

Lenny, you owe G.Sunset a quarter for that compliment...unless Lenny really is G.Sunset? Though I'm not quite sure what Lenny's handsomeness has to do with this discussion? Just another pretty face I guess?

[G Sunset]

Okay Sooooooo I put an extra "o" in lose. Geeeee I am so sorry. Lenny happen to tell me about this thread and I had to respond, so I joined your board. You are pretty critical about my spelling on one word. DID YOU READ WHAT I WROTE?????

Okay the igloo has babies at least they are learning herd ways from each other. Don't try and raise one by its self folks.

[Fairview Horse Center]

G Sunset - you must have known Lenny for a long time. Attended the same grammar school? Your speech is so similar. Interesting. :winkgrin: :lol:

My igloo foal was out with a herd of 5 mares and foals. Many people raise an orphan with a companion - pony, older mare or gelding. A friend of mine raised one with a yearling filly. A retired broodmare would be super. Use the igloo and find a companion.

[Waterwitch]

G Sunset - you must have known Lenny for a long time. Attended the same grammar school? Your speach is so similar. Interesting. :winkgrin: :lol:

Erin should be able to confirm that for us :)

[Kinsella]

Hi G Sunset... I happen to know you aren't Lenny - and I figured that out all by my little self. No Erin needed. Just a few comments you made that I've heard you make before. :) How's the nursemare's baby doing?

Originally posted by Waterwitch
...there is absolutely no need for a breeder to utilize, or feel they have to utilize, a nursemare for an orphan.

Until YOU have become every single breeder in the world, there is no way YOU can make this statement. Maybe YOU don't have to utilize a Nursemare, but that gives you NO RIGHT to speak for every other breeder in the world.

Originally posted by inca
I don't think there are too many things in life that are simply black or white.

Thank you for understanding this SIMPLE concept.

The bottom line is that there are atrocious things that happen in EVERY aspect of the horse industry. If people do their homework, they can do the best they AS INDIVIDUALS can do for THEIR horses. It isn't our place to judge our fellow breeders that DO love their horses simply because they choose to go a different route than we do. There are much better things to judge people on - like their honesty and integrity and how they treat the horses they do have, and the clients they deal with. I am certainly not going to knock someone because they chose to get a nursemare (well, especially since I am not against it) as opposed to choosing to run themselves ragged trying to raise an orphan. I think the trauma of losing a mare and having a huge surgery bill to go along with it because they did everything they could to save that mare is more than enough to run them ragged on its own. Maybe a little sympathy and understanding would be a better route.

But why am I wasting my breath? I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about how great the nursemare industry is, just that it isn't the axis of evil that some seem to want to paint it to be. I could give you a list of BNT and BNR names a mile long that do MUCH worse things to their horses than take a foal from them or raise a herd of foals in groups out of buckets because their dam's had to be used to save another foal - and all of that in the name of a stupid $0.50 ribbon...

[siegi b.]

So because there are "atrocious" things happening everywhere in the horse industry it's ok to continue with those in the form of nursemare orphans? What kind of logic is that?

And because the poor breeder lost the mare and had to pay a bunch of money for "surgery" it's ok to add another few thousands to the bill in the form of a nursemare that may or may not be able to nurse the baby? As I said before, I don't understand your logic....

What folks need to understand is that there is no guarantee that the nursemare will in fact NURSE the new foal. This happened to a friend of mine fairly recently and all she did get was an expensive buddy for her foal.

Given all those things, why would anybody even consider such an "option"?

[Kinsella]

No way but yours is right - I am ashamed of myself for believing something different.

:rolleyes: I'm outta here.

ps - the mare has accepted the foal and is a SAINT on the eyes of the foal's owner. The foal is healthy and happy.

[G Sunset]

What folks need to understand is that there is no "guarantee" that the nursemare will in fact NURSE the new foal. This happened to a friend of mine fairly recently and all she did get was an expensive buddy for her foal.

Given all those things, why would anybody even consider such an "option"?

Oh dear,(sigh) now I will sound like Lenny. If your friend used one of "Sandy's Nursemares", they are all over Virginia, and are guarenteed to NURSE THAT FOAL, your friend would have had a TRUE Nursemare worth her weight in GOLD.

[vxf111]

I think, even as an animal lover myself, any realistic person has to recognize that the health and hapiness of their own animals comes at the price of other "less valuable" animals.

The regumate you use on your mare, the vaccines for your foals-- those didn't fall out of the air. They were produced, in part, by testing on other horses that may have died to keep our "more valuable" animals healthy. Heck, the blood your horse might get in an emergency comes from a donor-- and while the donor might not be killed, his comfort comes at the safety of your horse's comfort.

Right or wrong, the truth remains that our animals lead long healthy lives because of testing/products that come from other animals. At the reputable farms, it sounds like the nursemare foals are well cared for and go on to lead productive lives. I can think of worse things that happen to horses. Far worse. Would I want *my* theoretical foal to be without his dam... no way.... but I wouldn't want mine having drugs tested on him either. That doesn't change the fact that it happened for my horse's comfort.

[G Sunset]

Hi G Sunset... I happen to know you aren't Lenny - and I figured that out all by my little self. No Erin needed. Just a few comments you made that I've heard you make before. :) How's the nursemare's baby doing?

Were you told the Nursemares, 2 month old, foal is doing just fine. He couldn't wait to get in the barn with his buddy, who he was pastured with, when we got home. He was talking back and forth with him while the trailer was being backed up to the barn. They were nuzzling each other almost immediately. After the 4-H group uses those two and two more for a judging class they will be back out with the rest of their buddies.

[cac182]

Naive question, but why can't nurse mares be breed to foal earlier in the year so that their biol. foals can be weaned at a safer age (~4 mths) and mare can still act as mom to orphan born later in the season? Seems like a win: win solution?

[RiddleMeThis]

Because they wont be producing much milk at that point, and I assume it will be harder to make the mom accept the new born foal.

[aspenlucas]

Naive question, but why can't nurse mares be breed to foal earlier in the year so that their biol. foals can be weaned at a safer age (~4 mths) and mare can still act as mom to orphan born later in the season? Seems like a win: win solution?
My farrier said that to me the other day as my mares tend to accept foals. Breed Nov/Dec and then rent them out. I won't do it as that is not my focus, but my focus is to breed my own foals and acclimate them, but it made sense. And just like a breastfeeding mom. Milk production goes with demand. If a young foal nurses frequently milk production will rise. I let someone borrow a mare that had not foaled for FIVE years. She was a "companion" for the foal, an older mother. Foal was 2 weeks old and didn't she teach that foal to nurse and produce milk!

[Fairview Horse Center]

In most cases, there really is no need for a nursemare. Like me, one of my breeders lost her mare when the foal was just a few days old. She got her right on the igloo, and within a few weeks, has the orphan out with an older sister, and a few young and old geldings. The foal is doing super.

There are another advantages to using an igloo and putting them into a group of horses. The foal is more independent, no weaning worries, the time it takes to fill the igloo 2 times a day is less than the time it takes to clean a stall with a mare and foal, and the bedding savings helps to pay for the milk. Compare that to the huge nursemare fee, breeding the mare back, and knowing that not only did her last baby lose its mom, but the same thing will happen to her again when the foal you breed from her is born. Plus, how will you feel when you become attached to the nursemare, and know you have to send her back to that life?

Here she is at about 3 weeks.