How to stallion shop?? and.. [Archive]

Catersun

Jul. 2, 2007, 04:53 PM

Ok. so I have a list of things that I'm looking for in a stallion that I hope will complement and improve my mare... how do I go about finding stallions that fit those criteria?

ans once i have choosen the papa, should i go about trying to get the mare "approved" with whatever registry he is reg'd with? And what does that entail?

Here is my shopping list-
I'm definately thinking warmblood-
I'd like a horse that matches her on temperment even though she is TB she does NOT have the flighty TB mind... anymore of a dead head and I"ll shoot myself! j/k,I would rate her at a 4 or 5. She's got go when you ask, but her spook is five minutes after everyone else and it's only a slight step sideways if she spooks at all. I can count all the spooks she's ever had under saddle on one hand.

Improves the neckset and topline.

I'd like to add some width to her.

I'd prefer a sire that is a can do it all kinda guy.

I'd like a horse that has a good walk, as the mare can get lateral when frusterated. Her other gaits are quite nice.

Catersun

Jul. 2, 2007, 10:28 PM

Ok... I've been researching stallions.... can someone explain to me premium vs elite and all that warmblood registry jargon PLEASE!!! I've looked at a couple of the registry sites, and well.. I'm still confused. What exactly is a keuring?

Catersun

Jul. 2, 2007, 11:22 PM

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 2, 2007, 11:29 PM

A keuring is basically the same as an inspection. Elite usually is an approved horse with at least 4 generations of approved pedigree. Elite for the Hanoverians is Approved and performance tested.

Premium is different for each registry, but in general, the highest premium is for those that achieve a certain score. Usually the top 10 to 25% of the horses presented. Some regsitries have 1st, and 2nd premium though, so look to see what they are really saying.

Try to see video or photos of many of a stallion's offspring to see if what he is producing is what you are looking for.

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 2, 2007, 11:44 PM

If your mare has a fairly typical TB neck set, Nevada will improve it. He has a nice neck set, but not really high. He adds lovely muscle over the back, loin, and hip to make a very nice topline. He is not a heavy warmblood, so may not add the width you are looking for. He is definitely the do it all kind of guy, with an incredible temperament, and passes that along to his offspring. He has a lovely walk, and his foals all get super walk scores.

So he would meet most of what you are looking for.

To add width/ more body bulk, you could look at Olivier http://www.imajica.net/stallions.html and Gold Luck http://www.unbridledcreative.com/rollingstonefarm/GL.html

Catersun

Jul. 2, 2007, 11:48 PM

Thankyou!!! :-)

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 3, 2007, 12:03 AM

My question must be treading on thin Ice.... 104 views and not a peep?!?

Ok... I'll rephrase...

What kind of proof do you look for in what a stallion marks his offspring with, and how do you know if a SO is telling the truth or trying to take you for a ride?

I look at the offspring and the bloodlines of the stallion, as well as the qualities the stallion exhibits in terms of conformation, athleticism, and temperament. I look at the stallion's scores from his stallion testing, and consider his performance record. I also look fo known "nicks," i.e. good crosses. If I were breeding a TB and was not sure specifically how the mare's lines cross with various sire lines, I would at least consider which ones cross well with TBs (there are many, and some of the oldies but goodies do better crossed with a little "blood.)

Re registries: I breed Hanoverians, so for me it is important that the horse is approved Hanoverian (and to be confusing, the stallion may nonetheless be Oldenburg, Dutch, Trakehner, etc).

Catersun

Jul. 3, 2007, 01:06 AM

where do I find UNbiased information on stallions and their gett (offspring) (did I use that term correctly?) or is this where I have to wade though lots of information from a bunch of different places?

I'm really thinking hanoverian... and I'm thinking I'm going to get the mare inspected and preformance tested. I think she has was it takes. We'll see what the judges say.

DownYonder

Jul. 3, 2007, 05:44 AM

I'd prefer a sire that is a can do it all kinda guy.

But are you breeding for dressage, hunters, jumpers, or eventing? Although most WB stallions can jump a bit, some are more suited for the hunters while others are more suited for the jumpers. So you should probably first define what your end goal is.

As far as registry goes, we are having an Oldenburg Verband inspection in Alpharetta, GA, on July 28. There are several folks coming from South Carolina. Details are at http://www.shannondale.com/eventsinspection.html or you can PM me for more info.

fish

Jul. 3, 2007, 06:53 AM

where do I find UNbiased information on stallions and their gett (offspring) (did I use that term correctly?) or is this where I have to wade though lots of information from a bunch of different places?

Your thread makes me chuckle a little, our approaches strike me as so different:

E.g.:
(1) So far I've never bred unless I've literally had a mare I liked so much that I wanted to reproduce HER-- with whatever the stallion offered being more or less gravy that could make HER even better.
(2) I then start looking and thinking of all the horses I see and have seen who remind me of what I love about my mare-- and might even be/have been a bit better( hard as that is for me to believe and put into print ;) ).
(3) Next, I research the breeding of #2, aimiing to discover the bloodlines/families that have produced what i'm wanting to,
(4) I start sending for videos and looking at stallions, focusing on my chosen bloodlines, but including others (especially if they're close enough to see in the flesh), both so I can compare and contrast types and also just in case I may have missed something about other families. By the time I'm selecting a stallion, I've generally collected enough video to keep me watching nonstop for about 3-4 days.
(5) By the time I've narrowed my choices down to 4 or fewer stallions who really knock my socks off, I'm generally showing videos of both my mare and the stallions I'm considering to experts I respect who are in a position to know more about what each stallion has produced than I do. Last time around, I narrowed myself down to 2 Holsteiner-bred stallions and made my final choice based on consultation with the head of the Verband in Germany who was kind enough to view a video of my mare and discuss which stallions were most likely to help me meet my goals.

I actually love to "wade through lots of information..." when stallion shopping, and don't care much about registries except as potential sources of information. Lately, I've happily been breeding my Oldenburg Approved/Premium TB mare to a U.S. based Holsteiner stallion who's yet to be presented to a registry here. I took my colt to an AWS inspection (at which he was champion) to generate an officail-looking record of his pedigree, but have very mixed feelings about the process. At this time, it looks highly likely that the stallion will soon be approved by one or more registries on the basis of his performance record, but that's obviously not been a consideration in my breeding choices.

Catersun

Jul. 3, 2007, 07:51 AM

Fish, that is really helpful to me. This will be the first mare I've ever bred, as well as the first time I "stallion shop" I really have gone into this relatively deaf dumb and stupid. I know what I'm looking for... just not where to FIND the information. I wouldn't mind wading though tons of Info, I just don't really know Where to get the Info to wade through. It's kinda frusterating.. when I search google for Hanoverian Stallions I get a bunch of links that aren't what I'm looking for instead of farms that stand H Stallions for breeding where I can request such info and see the pics of that stallions offsping. I'm concerned that if I search horse ad sites that I going to miss a great stallion because he wasn't marketed well. Hence why I've been asking lots of questions. I get the overwhelming feeling though that a majority on the board think I have no business breeding this mare and hence the silent treatment. Some have been very supportive and have offered me info on various stallions. But I am inexperienced, it would be nice for some people to chirp in and throw me a bone.

Like I said before.. this may or maynot happen... before I decide whether I AM goign to breed her or not... I'd like to see if there is a stallion out there that is really exactly want I want. No substitutions Allowed.

I'm thinking Hanovarian because I really like that style horse and I think it would impove HER. She maybe closer in conformational ideals to that breed than some others. I know of one horse whom I like and he is from the W line. I don't really want to narrow it down that much already, but I am keeping that in mind while I look at pedigrees.

The other problem I'm having is finding the information about crossing with TB mares. I'm sure there are other TB mares that have been bred to various stallions with similar lines as hers. Her grandsire of her dams side is Diplomat way. He's had some sporthorse offsping, and her sire's side has halo which has been known to produce stubborn, but competitive sport horses. or so a bunch of sites claim. I just can't find much on the competitors themselves to see what they were crossed with andhow it worked for them. THe folks I've talked to that have breed and know my mare have thought I've been on the right track so far.
So, I've got a good idea of what to look for.. I'm just having a hard time finding the info I want to look at. Does that make sense?

as for defining what I'd like to be able to do with future horsie... well, a bit of everything... I'm not looking to go above Prix St. George in dressage(haha like I"D be able to get there anyways.) I'm not looking to jump above 4 feet (probably not over 3'6) but I would like to be able to take said horsey to shows with student's and pop him over a hunter course now and again... more or less for the fun of it. Or we can gallop a cross country course for the fun of it. I'm pretty much game for what ever my horse likes. I'm easy to get along with on that line.

I want a horse that really will be a pleasure to ride. One who just has that Ok, Let's do it cause it's fun and we can additute whether he can excell at it or not.
I'd rather have heart and a good mind than ability. You can do alot more IMO with heart and Mind than you can with ability is the horse is a jerk.

Renae

Jul. 3, 2007, 08:11 AM

I've not dealt with any other registry as I have Harness Horses and the Dutch are the only ones that do those, but the KWPN puts out a lot of excellant information on the stallions they license and approve. The first question is usually what is the differance between licensed and approved? Licensed stallions have met all requirements except the performance requirement. When the stallion finishes its performance requirement, either by satisfactorily completing the stallion performance test or buy showing to a certain level in that horse's event. The KWPN is also going through a sem-controversial change right now called specialization, which means they are focusing their riding horse into different types rather than 1 general type, and identifying riding horses as dressage-type, jumper-type, and here in America we also have hunter-type. Here is the list of KWPN-NA stallions http://www.nawpn.org/approvedstallions.htm and here are the recommendations from the KWPN as to which stallion is which type (the dressage type ones with * are also identified as being successful jumper sires):

Dressage
Consul*
Contango* (he died this spring, but they still have frozen semen)
Contester*
Da Vinci
Facet
Fair Play
Farrington
Hierarch
Idocus*
Ijsselmeer
Juventus
Kevekko
Lingh
Mondriaan
Neostan
Paganini
Rampal
Rousseau
Sir Sincalir
Thatcher
UB-40

Jumper
Coconut Grove
E'Sop's Fable
Grand Star
Judgement-ISF
Nairobi
Nassau
Navarone
O.Zarah 61
Ikoon
Pyriet
Victorie

Hunter
Just The Best
Popeye K
Robinhood
Sir Caletto

And if you are thinking about breeding to a KWPN stallion ask abou the stallion reports for thestallions you are interested in over here http://www.ewarmbloods.net/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=23 the Dutch print stallion reports that tell what the good and bad points are about a stallion and recommend what type of mare he may best be bred to.

Renae

Jul. 3, 2007, 08:15 AM

Oh, another handy thing is http://www.paardenfokken.nl/. It is like the Dutch version of allbreedpedigree, only better, more accurate information and more detailed information for free. If you enter her Thourghbred lines in there you can see how other people have bred similarly bred horses and wo some extent how well they have done in competition (or google the horses names you find to see if you can come up with anything).

gortmore

Jul. 3, 2007, 08:48 AM

Look at Cotopaxi, Holsteiner, and Raffello, Hanoverian. Lisa has done a great job in taking these boys out and proving them in different disciplines. They have both done dressage, jumpers and 3 day eventing and Raffello has shown in the hunters as well. They are well bred and are producing very nice foals. I compete in the jumpers against Cotopaxi with my Irish Sport Horse stallion Clover Cliste and I have competed on the line with offspring against her as well.

Lisa is very knowledgable, is great to deal with and is very helpful. Both stallions are imported from and approved by Germany. Raffello has been put into the Hanoverian Jumper book and has a really good, kind temperament. For more info look at www.synergysporthorses.net

Adele

DreamTime

Jul. 3, 2007, 09:04 AM

Usually I don't pimp out our boy, and I hope the moderators are ok with that, but your requirements seem to be meshing really well with what our Holsteiner stallion Regulus produces with TB mares. Talk about versatility out of TB mares....

Won't say more here, so contact me for more info or look at our webpage.

Carolin Walz
www.dreamtimefarm.com

clint

Jul. 3, 2007, 09:21 AM

If you want to narrow your search down to Hanoverians, this is the AHS website and if you go to stallions, all the stallions licensed and/or approved are there. http://www.hanoverian.org/ There is information there about mare approval, and if you need more help, the office staff there is excellent at answering questions. Their annual stallion book is a wealth of information; get a copy from them, as it is a great starting point.

If you are looking for an all-around sort, there are stallions with bloodlines who have produced offspring who can do either dressage or jumping. The suggestion to look at Raffaello is a good one; he has competed both over fences and in dressage, and his bloodlines say he should do that. He has two foal crops on the ground and his owner is very honest, and can advise you whether he is a good cross for your mare. Others with duel talents are Edgar's stallions Pablo and Escudo II. Check out Rainbow Equus Farm. There are more out there, but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

okggo

Jul. 3, 2007, 09:57 AM

as for defining what I'd like to be able to do with future horsie... well, a bit of everything... I'm not looking to go above Prix St. George in dressage(haha like I"D be able to get there anyways.) I'm not looking to jump above 4 feet (probably not over 3'6) but I would like to be able to take said horsey to shows with student's and pop him over a hunter course now and again... more or less for the fun of it. Or we can gallop a cross country course for the fun of it. I'm pretty much game for what ever my horse likes. I'm easy to get along with on that line.

I want a horse that really will be a pleasure to ride. One who just has that Ok, Let's do it cause it's fun and we can additute whether he can excell at it or not.
I'd rather have heart and a good mind than ability. You can do alot more IMO with heart and Mind than you can with ability is the horse is a jerk.

I know you said Hano, but could I suggest an Irish Draught? They cross astoundingly well with TB mares, and I'm sure by contacting ISH breeders you could find a good nick with your mare. The Nasrullah/King of Diamonds produces very athletic foals, for example. You would get size, a great mind, sensibility, loyalty, and athleticism for any discipline all in one package.

Black Forest

Jul. 3, 2007, 10:06 AM

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 3, 2007, 10:24 AM

The best thing you can do IMO, is to develop your own eye. Scribe a a few Dressage Sporthorse Breeding shows, attend a few SHB seminars, go to lots of inspections. Do this with paper in hand, judge the horse yourself, and then see if your comments & scores agree with the Judge/inspector.

Also be aware that "rideability" can mean different things to different people. To some, rideability is about a horse that is very sensitive, that Anky can breathe an aid onto, and they instantly leap into huge extended gaits. For others, rideability is about a horse that is willing, but more relaxed, and easy going. The kind of horse that a deer jumping out on a trail is not going to rattle their brains. Some riders expect a dressage horse to spook a bit at the judges trailer, and the flower pots. Others want a horse that will be as comfortable with that as their own stall.

fish

Jul. 3, 2007, 11:32 AM

I think you're on the right track knowing and considering one horse you like and the line he's from. I agree with Darlyn that you should get out to as many shows as you can to develop your eye-- although I'd recommend performance over breed shows, and watching the barns and schooling areas as much or maybe even more than the arena--- I say this because you sound as though you're at least as concerned about what your baby will be like to live with on a day to day basis as you are about how competitive s/he will be. If you're lucky, you may find, as I did, that the vast majority of the horses I like best came from the same lines, sometimes even crossed with TB's not unlike mine. If the show programs don't list the horses' breeding, I wouldn't hesitate to ask the riders and/or owners at an opportune moment. Most of them will take that kind of inquiry as the compliment it is. If you're lucky, these people might enjoy talking about their horses and you can learn even more about the families they come from and how they were produced.

I've known a lot of Diplomat Ways, BTW, and loved them all. On the track, they were known as "hard-knockin' horses," very athletic, tough and with marvelous work ethics. As you may know, Celebration by Our Diplomat, by Diplomat Way, was Best Young Horse at Devon a few years back. Needless to say, I wouldn't mind seeing him in a horse's pedigree.

cyriz's mom

Jul. 3, 2007, 12:14 PM

For unbiased information about stallions and their offspring, each WB registry produces some sort of stallion book or directory. Some (not all) have a number of statistics on the stallions and the offspring that could be helpful to you.

If possible, I suggest you go to as many inspections as you can and see what each registry is looking for in breeding stock. AHS, as I understand, is one of (if not the most) strict about the TB mares they accept into their books. Your mare may the lovely, but not what they want in their books.

Unfortunately, we do not have a comprehensive database in North America to track performance results which is complicated by the frequency in which buyers change the names of horses or at least the show names. It makes it much harder to find out some of the information that would be helpful to you.

If you've decided on AHS, then certainly, that narrows down your stallion list into something that is more manageable to research. Thoroughly read their website, call the office and buy a stallion directory, also there is the Mid-Atlantic Hanoverian Breeders Group that is very active. I'm sure they have a website and contacting them may also give you more information.

Good luck in finding the "perfect" date for your mare!

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 3, 2007, 02:33 PM

fish

Jul. 3, 2007, 03:47 PM

I just wish performance shows listed bloodlines. I can't tell you how many riders I have asked, and they couldn't even tell me breed, and that includes when they were riding a horse with a brand on its butt.

The breed shows do have some under saddle classes, and the breeding is listed, so you can begin to see what lines you like.

Inspections the scores and comments are often announced, so that can help to match your eye to conformation and gaits.

Some of the shows do give breeding, Darlyn-- e.g., the CDI/open dressage show in Raleigh always does, and The Horse Show at Devon (H/J) puts sire, dam, owner, rider up on the light board during rounds and when the classes are pinned. The usef website also includes the breeding of horses accumulating points for HOY awards-- or at least it seems to try whenever the information is sent in. As for the riders, some of them know, some don't. Some BN riders don't know the breeding of all their mounts themselves, but will refer people to the owners who will gladly provide the information if they have it. It seems to me that the more we keep asking, the more there will be who decide that the breeding of their mounts is something they ought to know! I find it gets better all the time.

Now if we only had a serious, unified, reliable database!

P.S. I also ask about the breeding of horses who impress me at clinics. Looking back, I have the impression most riders do in fact know how their horses are bred-- in many cases even when they haven't bothered with registration either.

phoebe05

Jul. 3, 2007, 04:42 PM

I think someone suggested Idocus and his son Olivier. I don't know anything about Olivier's personality or his offspring but I have had 2 by Idocus out of very different mares. The one by a full TB was very forward but by no means wild he got bored easily and liked to entertain himself by what can only be called fake spooking since he would do it at the same things every single day and only at home. Take him to a show and he was perfect, no prep and completely focused even at his first horse show. At home if you started jumping or doing something that he didn't find boring...basic w/t/c ....he would focus and try really hard. Considering the fake spooking was his only quirk being ridden( and they were very minor spooks just irritating if you were trying to go straight down the wall and he felt like rubber necking) and his movement was amazing and he had the ability to jump well over 4' as an all arounder that cross would fit the bill.

The other one is by an Oldenburg mare who was a 1/2 TB. The mare's owner described her as being very hot and after an attempt at being a hunter she was moved to the jumper ring. Her son by Idocus on the other hand is LAZY. I think that is his response to boredom instead of spooking because once he starts jumping he wakes up and is perfect, squeeze to go super light on the bit and an amazing natural rythem. He is definately a hunter type. I think with a cow proud and some fire crackers you could get enough action in his movement to wow the dressage judges....I know it is in there....but he doesn't show it by choice. By all arounder he may be a bit too quiet but everyone has a different idea of quiet. Others that have ridden him think he is perfect I learned on OTTBs who would start out forward so for me any amount of repeated leg seems like too much work LOL.

They are both very smart, love to learn and were super easy to start. Extremely social horses who are very attached to their owners and try very, very hard. The fact that you have a TB and love and understand the sensative side of their brain ( regardless of their degree of laziness) makes me think Idocus may be a great match for you. PM me if you would like to know more or see pictures I think I have taken up enough space here :winkgrin:

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 3, 2007, 04:58 PM

From your list of requirements I'd be very tempted to have a good close look at all the Rubinstein offspring who usually seem to have (and pass on) that "let's go do it and have fun and we figure out how to do it along the way" attitude, the line is also known for being very "ridable" and tend to have a jump as well as the paces for Dressage and attitude.

I am not familiar with the Rubinsteins that are about in the USA but I have seen some stunning pictures of Rosenthal offspring if that is of any help.

The Rubinstein line is the one that immediately spang to my mind when I read your posts but there are many others that would equally do the job.

The Rubinsteins are typically VERY rideable. I have admittedly only ridden 3 -- but each was easy, easy with a lovely temperament. My friend has a Rubinstein/Landadel mare that can jump and move, a real all-rounder.

I also would take a serious look at Contango, if your vet thinks your mare is a candidate for frozen (sometimes especially tricky with a maiden) and you can get it. He was a fabulous stallion and as he recently passed away, it is going to be harder and harder to find offspring by him.

Also, some stallion owners are really good about giving helpful feedback on a mare. Hilltop, for example, historically has been extremely helpful and candid in saying which of their stallions, if any, might be an appropriate match for a mare, and at lesat used to be willing to review a mare's video or make an appointment to see the mare at their farm for an evaluation. www.hilltopfarminc.com Their stallion video is also worth seeing.

flshgordon

Jul. 3, 2007, 05:01 PM

I know what I'm looking for... just not where to FIND the information. I wouldn't mind wading though tons of Info, I just don't really know Where to get the Info to wade through. It's kinda frusterating.. when I search google for Hanoverian Stallions I get a bunch of links that aren't what I'm looking for instead of farms that stand H Stallions for breeding where I can request such info and see the pics of that stallions offsping. I'm concerned that if I search horse ad sites that I going to miss a great stallion because he wasn't marketed well. Hence why I've been asking lots of questions. I get the overwhelming feeling though that a majority on the board think I have no business breeding this mare and hence the silent treatment. Some have been very supportive and have offered me info on various stallions. But I am inexperienced, it would be nice for some people to chirp in and throw me a bone.

I think maybe some of (us) didn't realize exactly what you meant when you said you had no idea where to look.....if you really have no idea so far other than the breed/type you want, I suggest getting a copy of the registry's Stallion Directory. I am sure every registry has one, I know mine does. Might be free, might be a few bucks but at least you can see test scores, ads, offspring, etc for every licensed stallion with that registry. You might also look into a copy of the COTH stallion issue that has lots of "pretty pictures" and ads that you might find something to knock your socks off and you want a video.

Also, there have been lots of topics on COTH about stallion owners that are great/exceptional to deal with....you might try those for options as well since the SO is a HUGE part of the equation on actually getting your mare pregnant.

I'd check out the Hanoverian website, probably most of the stallions should have a link to a website if they have one.

Oakstable

Jul. 3, 2007, 05:08 PM

The ISR is the only one that I know of that gives the inspection results for the get for each stallion.

Many stallions are in other registeries so if Stallion A only has 4 babies on record, it likely means the foals are going to the AHHA or AHS or another group.

A premium foal may not be a premium adult.

Shopping for stallions is fun, that's why so many people jump into threads like this.

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 3, 2007, 05:09 PM

also there is the Mid-Atlantic Hanoverian Breeders Group that is very active. I'm sure they have a website and contacting them may also give you more information.

The Mid-Atlantic Hanoverian Breeders' Group site is http://mahb.homestead.com/

They are *very* helpful. Also, I know you are in SC but I believe there is a similar Hanoverian group based in North Carolina.

Majestic Gaits

Jul. 3, 2007, 09:06 PM

For the KWPN Dutch horse another thing you can look at is the www.kwpnstallion.com but you do have to subscribe. It has all the scores, reports of the testings and offspring evaluations in English. A very valuable too. Look at the offspring of the stallion and see what they are throwing. Talk to others that have offspring of the stallion.

The KWPN is nice as they accept TBs without inspection. Then the offspring get Reg A papers and have all the same possibilities as the foalbook foals. The offspring can move to studbook when they are inspected as a 3 year old. It is a good system especially for those that are far away from inspections or inspections are not in their area every year.

I can help you with any of the VDL stallions and the ones we have standing here. We have a lot to choose from and I breed to outside stallions myself, but focus on good temperaments and characters first for my own breeding program. I'm only biased in that I like what I choose for myself but I like to recommend the best stallion for what the people are looking for themselves and not for what I would want and not for just a sale.

Kathy
www.majesticgaits.com

TouchstoneAcres

Jul. 3, 2007, 11:30 PM

Here is my shopping list-
I'm definately thinking warmblood-
I'd like a horse that matches her on temperment even though she is TB she does NOT have the flighty TB mind... anymore of a dead head and I"ll shoot myself! j/k,I would rate her at a 4 or 5. She's got go when you ask, but her spook is five minutes after everyone else and it's only a slight step sideways if she spooks at all. I can count all the spooks she's ever had under saddle on one hand.

Improves the neckset and topline.

I'd like to add some width to her.

I'd prefer a sire that is a can do it all kinda guy.

I'd like a horse that has a good walk, as the mare can get lateral when frusterated. Her other gaits are quite nice.[/QUOTE]

Have you considered something other than WB? A Lipizzan certainly fits your description--dressage, jumps to 4', anything else you'd like to try. They certainly add width and bone, neck and topline. No need to approve the mare, because the foal can be registered part-Lipizzan without any inspection. Save your money for training and shows.

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 4, 2007, 08:47 AM

For the KWPN Dutch horse another thing you can look at is the www.kwpnstallion.com but you do have to subscribe.
Kathy
www.majesticgaits.com

How do you subscribe to that thing? I tried recently and could not make it work (I think in part because in filling out the address, all the countries were in Dutch (I think) and there was nothing remotely resembling United States on the list, at least not that I could see. Lovettsville, Uruguay is probably not going to work!).

Majestic Gaits

Jul. 4, 2007, 09:43 AM

I emailed them to find out. I get mine free as I have a kwpn membership in Holland. So, I've never had to subscribe.

Kathy
www.majesticgaits.com

Catersun

Jul. 4, 2007, 10:43 AM

ok... here is a throw back question to 9th grade biology... but does anyone use a punets square to see four genetic possibilites that could result from crossing the mare and stallion?

I've been looking at other horses I really like, and looking at their pedigree. Well I LOFF Brentina, so I started researching her lineage. I found two stallions so far that are B line. (this was late lastnight so I haven't gotten much farther than just browseing through their farms site.) I don't know how much I am really interested in a video put out by a stallions owner because I'm POSITIVE it will ONLY be his BEST movements. Yeah, that is nice to see, but I really want to get a feel for what the horse is like everyday. ANY horse can float across a field when they want. Canthey do it under saddle with a rider, not after they have ditched the rider... Obviously they must be able to otherwise they wouldn't have been approved. SO,am I missing a really big part by not wanting to be swayed by *Look At the Pretty Horsie!!!* aspect of stallion videos? or are they really more realistic. They ones I've seen of stallions I've known have been pretty far off from reality.

So my goal I think is to find a B line stallion that trhows babies with his topline and neck set. Adding to the mare movement would be a bonus, but even if not, I wouldn't be heart broken. SHe has got the rideablity and the mind.

To anwser some other questions asked. I've ridden a variety of breeds, and I know that although not a signle horse represents a whole breed, the various types and what they are currently breeding for I have looked into. I'm not really intersted in any of the baroque breeds for a variety of reasons primarily because I don't like what I see with TB crosses. I perfer those as purebreds and not crosses.

The couple of Dutch WB's I've seen have been kinda thin in width, or at least similiar in width to Mir. I really like a heaveir looking horse. Not something SOOOO fine, and it seems to me that a lot of Dutch are bred to be fine, or at least finer than I personally like.

So here is a question for you breeders... if you have a Han mare, or and oldenburg mare or what ever. Why do you choose to cross with another WB breed? is it because you like another stallion better for your mare than you have in your own breed? or are you trying to breed for something more performance oriented than breed ideal?

coriander

Jul. 4, 2007, 11:11 AM

if you have a Han mare, or and oldenburg mare or what ever. Why do you choose to cross with another WB breed? is it because you like another stallion better for your mare than you have in your own breed? or are you trying to breed for something more performance oriented than breed ideal?

Generally, it's for performance. However, keep in mind that also in the WBs, there aren't the kind of "breed ideals" that you might think of for TBs, QHs or ASBs because these are performance horse registries with much more open studbooks than what you may be used to seeing. A stallion may be registered Holsteiner, say, but approved for GOV, AHS, RPSI, BWP,etc. That's part of what's so confusing at first. So that can give you options for foal registrations based on mare approval - where is the mare already approved or what will be the highest scoring approval. It can make your head spin considering those possibilities, if you let it.

I would find the stallion(s) you like for what you want to improve, research them and their offspring,m and worry about how to register the foal later. Happy shopping!!

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 4, 2007, 11:46 AM

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 4, 2007, 11:54 AM

So here is a question for you breeders... if you have a Han mare, or and oldenburg mare or what ever. Why do you choose to cross with another WB breed? is it because you like another stallion better for your mare than you have in your own breed? or are you trying to breed for something more performance oriented than breed ideal?

I have a Sandro Hit x Donnerhall mare that is registered Hanoverian, though her sire is Oldenburg. SH is known to be a good nick with Donnerhall, so that explains her breeder's choice. In turn, I am breeding her to Rousseau, a Dutch Warmblood that is approved Hanoverian, so the resulting baby will be registered Hanoverian. Rousseau is very similar to my mare, except she is more refined, so I think they will be a good match physically. He has a little more splash in his movement than she does, and brings to the equation several generations of really interesting Dutch lines which I would like to have in my breeding program.

I also have a Hohenstein mare that is registered Hanoverian, though Hohenstein is a trakehner. Historically, trakehners were used in Hanoverian breeding programs as refiners. Also, just to be really confusing, there is a distinction between "breeds," such as trakehner, and "registries" such as Hanoverian. Someone has a link to a really good article explaining this; I will try to find it.

Renae

Jul. 4, 2007, 11:58 AM

I emailed them to find out. I get mine free as I have a kwpn membership in Holland. So, I've never had to subscribe.

Kathy
www.majesticgaits.com

They don't repsond to their e-mails. I've given up trying to get a membership with www.kwpnstallions.com but have been told if you call the KWPN-NA office they can hook you up. The Dutch Harness Horse stalions are so few I can find out my info on them pretty well without that site, too much of a hassle, but if they would fix it so one could easily register online I would probably join.

not again

Jul. 4, 2007, 12:33 PM

Tour as many farms as you can in order to see stallions in person and then their get. Start with feet--no foot, no horse is important to remember. Does the stallion have matching front feet? Are they clubby? Are the heels underslung? Does he have the correct shoulder and hock angle? Does he throw these things?

crestline

Jul. 4, 2007, 12:44 PM

Catersun-
We have a stallion that absolutely fits your criteria...and I know there are lots of great stallion out there to pick from...
To answer your question about how you know a stallion owner isn't "taking you for a ride" about what their horse is like...ask the horse's trainers, check show records, ask the folks that breed to him, ask the folks that ride the young horses. I know that I (like many stallion owners) can provide countless names of folks that can attest to what the foals, young horses and what Palladio himself is like. Once a stallion's offspring hit training age you also have all of the trainers that are working with the get that can also give you insight as to what they are like.

And...ditto the other comments on the registry stuff....we take our horses to regitries that are convenient to us and user friendly. I also definitely recommend picking the bloodlines and stallion first and then researching where you'd have to get the mare approved.

Also, not all of the Dutch horses are fine...some are but look at the bloodlines and each one individually as there is a great difference in type found in each registry...(for example...our stallion is foal papered KWPN but is not a thin light type...His sire was HOL so the bloodlines get very intertwined)...

Happy searching!

Catersun

Jul. 4, 2007, 02:05 PM

wow.... you all are correct is saying CONFUSING!!!

So the moral of this story is that there are TONS of stallions that would match nicely with my mare. *sigh* It would be easier if there were only one or two. haha

Really really reallllllyyyyyy confusing. SO in otherwords TO HEC with what a horse is reg'd as... it means.. ohh.. not a whole hec of a lot because the horse is probably a hienz 57 of WB breeds anyways... *sigh*

Ok. if I am throwing my current technique of weeding out stallions, Can I throw in a color question while I'm at it?!?

Mir's Dam was a Bay, her Sire was black and she is chestnut... is there anything I can breed her to to be sure I don't get another red horse??? Ok so I know a cremellow and I"d get a palimino... but I"m not really going for that extreme color.

I know. color should be the last thing you think about... but since things are still in the theory mode and not accuality YET I'd like to be better informed. It seems that a LOT of the Brentano 11 offsping is RED. (for that kind of horse I don't care what color it is- LOVE that Brentina Girl!)

I've had some very nice SOs PM me with their websites and information about their stallions. I wish all SO's would list stallions height in BOLD BIG print.. as I not so sauvely stuck my foot in my mouth and then swallowed it up to my knee... *shakes head* How many riders out there are 6'5.... well a rider that is 6'5 makes a horse that is 17'3 look normal sized to small. One doens't realize that until the SO pointed it out. I'm 5'4 my 17h mare is plenty big enough... myluck I'll breed to a 16'2 hand stallion and end up with a 17'2 h baby when fully grown.

Thanks for anwsering all my questions- you all have been great!

Catersun

Jul. 4, 2007, 02:08 PM

when looking at pedigrees. xx means TB??

fish

Jul. 4, 2007, 02:33 PM

Yes, xx means TB.
Also, I'm no color expert, but believe the only way to be sure to avoid another chestnut, aside from going to a cremello or homozygous pinto, is to breed to a homozygous black.

I humbly suggest that you learn to like chestnuts: there should be enough very, very good ones out there to make it a very good color!

If asked, I prefer bays myself, but I have a chestnut with chrome I think adorable-- especially her crooked freckled blaze.

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 4, 2007, 04:52 PM

I humbly suggest that you learn to like chestnuts: there should be enough very, very good ones out there to make it a very good color!

I swore up and down I would NEVER own a chestnut. :o :rolleyes: :dead:

We don't pick our horses, they pick us. When the right horse comes along, color does not matter. It look me a long time to finally admit that a good horse is a good horse, but come on seriously now...TWO of them? :uhoh: Whose idea of a joke is that? :winkgrin:

Catersun

Jul. 4, 2007, 06:16 PM

I swore up one side and down another that I did NOT want a red horse. I didn't even want to go LOOK at mir because she was red. My trainer at the time convinced me to go look anyways... she was always in the market for a project even if I didn't want her... sure enough... what do I end up buying a few days later. At the time it was a crazy red TB mare. Now, I love that horse... she gave me some grey hairs(trying to teach her to tie for instance.... really good reason why anyone with young stock needs to teach them to tie Young and right!) but she really is My Girl now and well worth every grey hair.

bonds

Jul. 5, 2007, 08:50 AM

You might want to look at Freestyle at Dreamscape farms. He's homozygous for black (can't produce a chestnut), is making a name for himself by improving toplines, necksets, and producing super temperaments on the babies, and has been used quite a bit on Tbred mares.

Lots of pictures there. You can also contact his owner, Jennifer and chat with her, she's super to deal with.

Disclaimer: I do have 2 babies by him out of a 3/4 Tbred mare, and they're both great boys... :)

http://www.dreamscapefarm.com/HorseDetail.aspx?ID=1

fish

Jul. 5, 2007, 07:10 PM

I swore up and down I would NEVER own a chestnut. :o :rolleyes: :dead:

We don't pick our horses, they pick us. When the right horse comes along, color does not matter. It look me a long time to finally admit that a good horse is a good horse, but come on seriously now...TWO of them? :uhoh: Whose idea of a joke is that? :winkgrin:

Red horses: Man O'War, Secretariat, Rags to Riches, Weltmeyer, Warum Nicht, Gigolo, Jus De Pomme, Baloubet du Rouet, Dash for Cash.... I wouldn't mind a joke that landed me with a couple of those :) !

buschkn

Jul. 5, 2007, 09:41 PM

Ditto on the chestnut sentiment, I am not generally a fan. That being said, my best jumper is a flaxen chestnut (doesn't count!) and our absolutely most laid back horse EVER is a nice moving green broke 17h chestnut TB that my beginner BF can ride. Go figure. So I guess we should all just get over it. :)

DownYonder

Jul. 6, 2007, 09:10 AM

Red horses: Man O'War, Secretariat, Rags to Riches, Weltmeyer, Warum Nicht, Gigolo, Jus De Pomme, Baloubet du Rouet, Dash for Cash.... I wouldn't mind a joke that landed me with a couple of those :) !

And Donnerhall (okay, he was a liver chestnut, but chestnut all the same!). And Don Schufro, Elvis, Wansuela Suerte, Couleur Rubin, Brentano II, Brentina, Floriano, Briar, Espri...

Catersun

Jul. 6, 2007, 09:46 AM

ok ok ok... so.... ya'll have proved a point.. LOTS of GREAT red horses... lots of great horses of other colors too!

thanks, I"m going to look into that homozygous black stallion.

DownYonder

Jul. 6, 2007, 10:02 AM

Another homozygous black that might interest you is Rosenthal. He is a Rubinstein son, and as already mentioned, the Rubinstein line is very well known for good rideability and generosity under saddle. Rosenthal is producing a LOT of premium foals for Oldenburg (GOV), out of all kinds of mares, so you might want to take a look at him. http://www.hphanoverians.com/

Catersun

Jul. 6, 2007, 10:10 AM

fish

Jul. 6, 2007, 10:25 AM

showjumpers66

Jul. 6, 2007, 10:32 AM

Just to make it even more confusing! :D

Height is not always a good indicator of size or the size the stallion produces. Take Cathalido for example. He is 17.1 h, but he is very leggy and modern. He does not ride like a 17.1 h horse. A 6'5" person on him looks huge and a 5' person can easily ride him. Even though he is big boned and tall, he is actually a refinement sire. His foals are typically the size of the dam, but gain his elegance, legginess, and type. Apiro on the other hand is 16.3 h and is a very substantial horse. He produces it, so he needs refined mares.

wow.... you all are correct is saying CONFUSING!!!
I've had some very nice SOs PM me with their websites and information about their stallions. I wish all SO's would list stallions height in BOLD BIG print.. as I not so sauvely stuck my foot in my mouth and then swallowed it up to my knee... *shakes head* How many riders out there are 6'5.... well a rider that is 6'5 makes a horse that is 17'3 look normal sized to small. One doens't realize that until the SO pointed it out. I'm 5'4 my 17h mare is plenty big enough... myluck I'll breed to a 16'2 hand stallion and end up with a 17'2 h baby when fully grown.

Catersun

Jul. 6, 2007, 10:33 AM

lol.. I"ll wear a blind fold while i'm grooming and riding... when I eliminate color from consideration.. all the stallions I have liked have been red. I really haven't seen many stallions that weren't red that really impressed me. Even when I don't look at the stallion first, but research other horses i like, I find that their sire was red nine times out of ten. so I guess I'm gonna have another red horse... Oh well..... could be worse.

Catersun

Jul. 6, 2007, 10:40 AM

Just to make it even more confusing! :D

Height is not always a good indicator of size or the size the stallion produces. Take Cathalido for example. He is 17.1 h, but he is very leggy and modern. He does not ride like a 17.1 h horse. A 6'5" person on him looks huge and a 5' person can easily ride him. Even though he is big boned and tall, he is actually a refinement sire. His foals are typically the size of the dam, but gain his elegance, legginess, and type. Apiro on the other hand is 16.3 h and is a very substantial horse. He produces it, so he needs refined mares.

Yes, I making VERY sure I don't breed to a refinement sire.... Mir is PLENTLY leggy... which is why I at 5'4 look perfect on her. She is very flat sided, VERY easy for my short legs to nicely lay on her sides. I was schooling a student's hony yesterday and my husband was laughing very hard.... I could have ridden her over the jumps by holding on to her ears... it was ridiculous... I really like there to be horse in front of me and behind me.

I'm wondering.. I've been looking at pics and because I so highly value a long neck on my horses... does anyone else think that Contucci looks a little short in the neck? I wasn't sure if I've been looking at too many horses, or if it was just the way the pics make him look. I'm waiting for HillTop's video to arrive. Perhaps that will shed more light onto his physic.

Oakstable

Jul. 6, 2007, 03:56 PM

I have a Contucci out of his first foal crop. Cassidy looks a great deal like Contucci and his grandsire, Caprimond. The neck is long and has a lovely shape to it.

Hilltop's DVD is VERY impressive, btw.

DownYonder

Jul. 6, 2007, 04:07 PM

My German mentors told me that a super long neck is not particularly desirable in a dressage horse. It makes it too hard to keep them steady in the bridle. Long necks are okay though for jumpers as it helps them balance over big fences.

Oakstable

Jul. 8, 2007, 01:15 PM

The neck is not super long.

A friend of mine had a filly by Budweiser with a long neck and the filly ended up with wobbler's. She was saved with the basket surgery.

cheekyhorse

Jul. 8, 2007, 01:41 PM

MaresNest

Jul. 8, 2007, 02:01 PM

The warmblood associations have Stallion Books. I have found them very helpful. They list all the approved stallions from a given year. They provide pictures, pedigrees, stud fees, and a little paragraph about each stallion.

Go to the Hanoverian website and order one. And/or the Oldenburg website. And/or any other warmblood society you are interested in.

Also, check out Windfall CB. He is a Hanoverian. I have a 2 year old filly by him out of my TB mare, and I'm delighted with her. I waited for years to breed my mare, but when I saw Windfall CB, I knew I had found a stallion worthy of her :) He does stamp the toplines of his get, based on the ones I've seen. I think that was a priority for you, wasn't it? Higher set necks, stronger backs? He does that.

Good luck.

MaresNest

Jul. 8, 2007, 02:10 PM

hmmm.... lots to think about... I got comfirmation from Hilltop that Contucci would be a good matching with Mir too... He and contango were the first two stallions that I wanted to breed her too.

I can see why everyone like this stallion shopping thing so much lol it's kinda fun once you know what to look at and how to find it! lol

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this yet, but Contucci throws HUGE babies. I've got a friend who has bred 2 mares (a TB and an old-style Hanoverian) to him several years in a row. They are always big. The most recent one was pushing 17h at 2. YIKES! Apparently he has a couple of offspring that are over 18h! He himself is not huge, but his babies are. They are, however, good movers with good brains, and they are typically very rideable. But they are big. It's the kind of thing you need to know before you jump in.

risingstarfarm

Jul. 8, 2007, 02:19 PM

I really like the three Contucci offspring that I know. They are full brothers and are extraordinarily talented dressage horses (well the 5 and 7 yo are - not sure about the 2 yo yet).

The older two are very big horses.

Oakstable

Jul. 10, 2007, 09:35 AM

I bred a 15.2 imported Hano mare to Contucci and the resulting gelding is 16.1 hands. He is her 10th and last foal.

Edgewood

Jul. 10, 2007, 10:30 AM

You might also want to check out Fabuleux at www.bridlewoodhanoverians.com (http://www.bridlewoodhanoverians.com). He is homozygous for black points and I have had 2 of his offpring who are wonderful - good all around horses.

Fabuleux has 2 full sisters in the Hanoverian Jumper Breeding program and he was a successful dressage horse in Germany prior to being imported. There are lots of photos on his website of his offspring. He is very consistent.

Here are my 2 (a 2006 colt and a 2007 filly). I have a few more new photos of the 2007 filly, but I do not have time to post them now. Plus she will be going to inspection this week - so should get some new ones of her there. The inspectors loved the 2006 colt and said Fabuleux was a perfect cross for my TB mare.

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/557581019jGNLAP

http://pets.webshots.com/album/558833734Zbwelw

MagicRoseFarm

Jul. 10, 2007, 11:39 AM

Unfortunately for you, in the US, the only way to track these stats is by searching individual horses. Unfortunately for many stallions, marketing issues do allow them to slip through the cracks.

If attitude, personality, intelligence and TEMPERMENT are your FIRST criteria, I have to speak up for our stallion Beste Gold. He is crossing very well with TB mares,and is Hanoverian of solid foundation bloodlines.

While he is younger himself, He has babysat me through learning to compete to second level. at the national level with good success (consistantly scoring 8 or 9 on free walk). He was injured in a freak breeding accident last year and we are currently under saddle again and hopeful to return to competition.. His family has been nationally very successful in the hunters and dressage.

His first foals are under saddle, all owned by amateurs, and many Non Breeders have bred to him the same way you are, with the goal of prodiucing their own next riding horse from their favorite mare. The younger ones are proving quite successful in hand as well. These owners offer to have anyone interested in breeding to him contact them directly.

Now reading the entire thread, He is 18 hands, so possibly too tall for you. However, his 3/4 and full siblings are 16.1 and 16.2 respectively...