US Entries for FEI/WBFSH World Breeding Championship for Young Horses

[arnika]

Here's the link for the dressagedaily story.

http://www.dressagedaily.com/2007/dd_200706/dd_20070628.html

Good luck to all of them!

[talloaks]

Good luck to all of them and especially Cabana Boy and Chris Hickey!!:D I have a Contucci mare I adore and have sold a Contucci gelding the new owner adores!!! :D Guess I am a little biased wouldn't you say!! ;)

[dressagefriend]

Best of luck to all the Horses and Riders. Looking forward to the National Championships. There are some really great horses this year!

[dressagefriend]

Also wish that the US had more spots so we could send more than two horses for each age group. Maybe some day.

[clint]

Good luck to all, but I'm especially cheering Lord Albert.:D I have a filly by him that I have high hopes for, just like daddy!

[maple_brook]

Good Luck to all the horse & rider teams! I am hoping to be over there to watch with a few friends. We will be cheering very loudly for the US team!!

[DownYonder]

And isn't it great to see a U.S. bred in the group? :D

What happened though to Cesar Parra and Donovan? I thought they were leading the 6 y/o division. Did he decide not to go? Or is it a citizenship question? I am certain that I heard somewhere that he was thinking about changing his citizenship so he could ride for the U.S. Has that not happened yet?

[Tiki]

I believe it is/was a citizenship situation - one of timing.

You go Chris!!! I am so pleased to see Cabana Boy doing so well with him and I'm going to rooting and cheering so loud Chris is going to hear me from here for an American on an American bred horse.

[flshgordon]

Why do we only get 2 spots per age group???

[alexandra]

yep this is due to the fact how many mares there are in the US based breeds that are working with the World breeding association....

[2Dogs]

do I read the article correctly that only one of these horses was actually bred in the US? If that is correct, were the three bred in Europe bought as foals?

I saw Cabana Boy in Raleigh. Swoon....

[risingstarfarm]

I believe that Lord Albert was imported as a stallion (maybe a three year old??).

[ahf]

He was imported by Sharon Garner of Garner Creek Farms in TX last year. He was sent to Steffan Peters barn in late summer, and gelded in October. He will have a small foal crop on the ground this year. I don't know if Sharon froze him before his sale.

[Touchstone Farm]

Huge congratulations to the only U.S. bred horse, Cabana Boy, who was bred by Doug and Shannon Langer from Wisconsin. It's one thing to buy a talented youngster and compete it...but it's really a special honor to actually breed one of these talented horses! I know my favorite of the group!

[siegi b.]

Yes, congratulations to all that qualified!!

The sad thing, however, is that not necessarily the best horses will go to Germany because not everybody can afford to do so.

It'll be interesting to see the results after the championships in Kentucky (Sept.).

[talloaks]

Yes, congratulations to all that qualified!!

The sad thing, however, is that not necessarily the best horses will go to Germany because not everybody can afford to do so.

It'll be interesting to see the results after the championships in Kentucky (Sept.).


Who are you thinking of that has the better horses but can't afford to go to Germany???

[Bundy]

Regarding Cesar Parra - I have no idea why he isn't going - however = it wasn't due to citizenship issues. The rules clearly state on USDF that ONLY the OWNER is required to be a US citizen. No requirement for the rider to be a citizen.

Perhaps Siegi is referring to Sancette by Sandro Hit. They finished 2nd on the 6yo final list behind Cesar - and who has opted not to go? Opening the way for the 3rd and 4th ranked horses to go (and who are going)

[alexandra]

do I read the article correctly that only one of these horses was actually bred in the US? If that is correct, were the three bred in Europe bought as foals?

I saw Cabana Boy in Raleigh. Swoon....

Well The US gets a number of spots, but how they fill them is up to "you", so no rules from the World breeding association (sounds kin'a stupid - I think...). As far as I understood the organisation that is responsibe for that set up some rules which do not contain that the horse is bred in the US, but I remember that this was about to change within a certain time 2 years ? I am not sure but there were threads on that one or two years ago in this forum about it.

[clint]

Yes, congratulations to all that qualified!!

The sad thing, however, is that not necessarily the best horses will go to Germany because not everybody can afford to do so.

It'll be interesting to see the results after the championships in Kentucky (Sept.).

Weren't all the qualifiers for the FEI/WBFSH regional? I'm not aware of any horses scoring higher than the ones who are going, but elected not to go? Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Bundy]

The top 2 qualified horses for the 6yos - were Cesar Parra on Donovan and Dirk Glitz on Sancette. Donnermuth and Mix Max were 3rd and 4th on the list - however -the first 2 (Parra and Glitz) opted not to go - so USEF keeps moving down the list until people elect to go. Hence we actually have the 3rd/4th finished horses going in the 6yos.

The top 2 5yos were Lord Albert and Cabana Boy - and they both opted to go obviously.

You can find the list on the USEF website. Under Dressage, National Competitions, the the Markel Program link.

[ise@ssl]

Bundy you make it sound like the only horses that should go are the 2 highest scoring. If the owners don't want to go that's there choice but I'm confused as to why they would spend the time and money to compete them toward this and then opt out. Also there is a MINIMUM score to qualify to go.

[Tiki]

I believe the Regional Selection Trials are also selection trials for the National Championships. You CAN qualify for the Nationals at other shows as well, but you can ONLY qualify for the World's at the Regionals. I would suspect that is why they might compete but not opt to go.

[siegi b.]

ise@ssl - the reason we should make an effort to send our Top Two horses is to be competitive. When you look at the scores of the 3rd and 4th horses it becomes self-explanatory.....

In order to play in the World Championships you need to have scores nearing 9 - better even to be above that. Just because there is a minimum score (7.1 I think) to qualify doesn't mean it will be competitive.

Maybe some of our organizations should try to help with getting the right horses to the championships....

[ise@ssl]

Well considering the fact that the US can send ONLY 4 horses total - why doesn't our NGB or the USET FOUNDATION - pay all the expenses to send these horses and riders over once they qualify?

And regarding whether the horses will actually be in the top at the competition - you have to start somewhere. And I would like to think riders can be challenged by the competition to increase their scores.

But I do feel it evidences that "some" of our TOP RIDERS are only now lowering themselves from their thrones to actually compete young horses. In EUROPE it is very common for the top riders to have young horses as well as their FEI horses.

[tri]

What do you consider young? Top riders are routinely going to europe and buying 3/4 year olds - didn't someone post earlier on this thread that one of the horses was purchased overseas as a 3 year old? The problem isn't that top riders aren't buying young horses, the problem is that they aren't buying so many of them here.

[ise@ssl]

No tri - I disagree - look at the entries at the lower levels at recognized dressage shows - there are many upper level riders that you NEVER see there. Look at the # of horses entered in the 5 & 6 year old classes - they should be filled to overflowing - though at least you DO SEE those classes at shows now.

[ahf]

IF you are referring to Lord Albert - he was imported as a 3yo after his 100dt. But he was imported as a breeding stallion for her roster. Not as a YH candidate.

He had a hard time concentrating in work (and all of Sharon's stallions are kept in work) with his "parts" but evidenced a LOT of stalent. So he was shipped to Peters, and then gelded to help his concentration abilities as a riding horse. Then sold.

I don't think I'm talking out of school, at least I hope not. I think this was fairly well known. And if Sharon is reading this - at least I'm giving you credit for bringing the horse to the US. Which as NOT been the case with ANY of the articles on the horse I've seen. They all state the horse was "found" at Steffen Peters barn. I would venture to say that YOU found him. Not Steffen Peters.

And yes, it's criminal that only Cabana Boy is domestically bred. But I guess I just have to be happy that at least ONE of the horses qualified was actually born in NA.

[Oakstable]

Hilda Gurney competes in all levels, including the lower ones.

A number of So Cal riders with big portfolios do that.

Owner is often a client and the client wants the horse shown.

[risingstarfarm]

I agree, Sharon gets full credit for bringing Lord Albert to the US - (in the same vein, Melanie Pai should get credit for Floriano)

At any rate, it's a pity he was gelded. From what I understand, he and David clicked very well together - even when LA was entire.

I love the Londonderry bloodlines!

Must add that I am ASTOUNDED more dressage breeders aren't using Contucci!

[STF]

Im excited to see Mix Max!! He is also SWANA approved! Lovely horse! Tons of luck to him and his crew.......... they deserve it!!
:D

[tri]

ise and Oakstable, Hilda not only rides a lot of young horses but raised her own to ride and train as well. Then there is Courtney King who rides and qualifies horses from Training level and up and Lendon Grey to name a couple of more.

Anne Gribbons started on Aureate when he was 4 years old (he is an import)

Jan Ebeling and Stephen Peters also have young horses that they bring along. I could go on and on with just the dressage riders, but then there are the top jumper riders.....like Hap Hanson who is well known for taking a very young horses and piloting them around big big courses giving them big ring experiences. Two years ago, I was looking at a 4 year old french bred mare for sale that was imported by Hidden Creek and Margie Engle - I know her importer and they routinely import 3/4/5 yr olds.

[YankeeLawyer]

Well considering the fact that the US can send ONLY 4 horses total - why doesn't our NGB or the USET FOUNDATION - pay all the expenses to send these horses and riders over once they qualify?


My understanding is that because this is a Pan Am Games year, the USET is helping fund the team for that and cannot also do the young horse championships. That is just what I heard, albeit from a fairly reliable source.

I am attending a fundraiser next week that is being held to help defray the costs of one of the pair's trip to Germany.

[YankeeLawyer]

Must add that I am ASTOUNDED more dressage breeders aren't using Contucci!

Contucci IS a very, very popular stallion. The issue is whether these youngsters get into the right hands to bring them along.

[YankeeLawyer]

But I do feel it evidences that "some" of our TOP RIDERS are only now lowering themselves from their thrones to actually compete young horses. In EUROPE it is very common for the top riders to have young horses as well as their FEI horses.

My understanding and observation has been that the very top young horse riders in Germany specialize in that, and are not the riders competing at GP level. I think that Ingrid Klimke is an exception to that (but then again she also excels in multiple disciplines). But generally, the riders of the top placed horses in the world championships are primarily young horse riders.

[DownYonder]

Considering that estimated costs are running up to $30,000 for one U.S. horse/rider team to go to the World Championships, I don't blame some of the qualifiers to decline the offer. It would take a very deep-pocketed owner to absorb those kind of expenses.

BTW, The Oldenburg Horse Breeders Society was talking about helping with expenses for any of its horses that qualify for the National and/or World Championships, so that is one organization that is interesting in putting funds out there.

It is a shame that Cesar Parra and Donovan aren't going, but maybe Donovan's owner didn't want to spend the money, or maybe Parra had a conflicting event here. Too bad, it would have been interesting to see how they fared over there.

Regarding Contucci - my understanding was that he was one of the most used WB stallions in N.A. for quite a few years. I would think he would still be getting a good number of mares - his production record is hard to beat for a U.S. based stallion.

[ise@ssl]

Hello tri - I said SOME top riders are showing young horses. And yes in Europe the top Young Riders and Bereiters do show the young horses but they are working for the top upper level riders and under their training. And thse riders do get on the horses. Yes I know Hlda Gurney breeds and shows and we can all identify one or two riders in our area who have some young horses in their stable. BUT - if most had at least one - those 5 & 6 yo classes would be filled to overflowing AND THEY ARE NOT.

And I find it PATHETIC that the USET can't pay the expenses for the horses going to these championships. The USET and USEF should dump alot of people who don't seem to do anything and allocate a percentage of money from the registration of US BRED HORSES when they apply for HID's to a fund to pay for these costs. I feel it's embarrasing that they say the can't completely fund the Young Horse expenses because of the Pan Am Games - HOOOEY - HOOOEY HOOOEY.

[YankeeLawyer]

And I find it PATHETIC that the USET can't pay the expenses for the horses going to these championships. The USET and USEF should dump alot of people who don't seem to do anything and allocate a percentage of money from the registration of US BRED HORSES when they apply for HID's to a fund to pay for these costs. I feel it's embarrasing that they say the can't completely fund the Young Horse expenses because of the Pan Am Games - HOOOEY - HOOOEY HOOOEY.

I don't know what the financial situation is with the USET Foundation, but it seems that the USEF collects enough fees that they should be able to do *something*. I *think* historically, though, it is te USET Foundation, and not the USEF, that helps fund these trips.

The thing is, it is not as though any of these organizations or the breed registries made any attempt to raise funds specifically for events like this -- and they COULD. The fundraiser (a BBQ and Silent Auction) I am going to was organized by friends of the horse and rider in question, and I think it is a great idea. I am happy to participate because I am really excited for them, and it is fun to be a part of it even if in a small way. But some of these organizations could hold special events as well -- I know the USET used to do that, at least.

[ise@ssl]

I'll tell you why they don't focus on fund-raising for the Young Horse Championships. They USEF etal are still COMPLETELY IGNORANT about the fact that there IS a connection between the breeding programs and the success in various equine disciplines at the highest levels. Even though it's glaringly obvious why the European teams are the powerhouses for our Teams to constantly use as a target of achievement - they seem to REFUSE to see that the competition is connected to the the HUGE and worldwide successful breeding programs in those countries that are consistently in the medals.

I just don't know how we can make this any clearer to them. I had thought Denny Emerson's editorial about tracking horses would put some small lightbulb on at the top. It appears the most recent editorial in the COTH basicly talking about the TONS OF DEAD WOOD we have serving on the USEF boards is PAINFULLY ON POINT.

[SGray]

I would support USEF/USET funds going to help pay for a US-bred horse to compete

[tri]

I think there are a lot of upper level riders that get young horses into their barns. I'll say it again, though, they are getting them overseas. Maybe dressage riders don't do it as often as, say, the jumper riders but I don't know of really ANY top jumper riders who don't get 3/4/5 year olds into their barns on a fairly regular basis - if nothing else, then, for sale horse purposes. The Young Jumper series is full of professionals riding those young horses as well and the championships usually have a pretty good field of horses competing.

Ise, I completely agree with you regarding the organizations helping send horse/riders for these events. I've made a lot of posts about how the euro wb registries don't do enough....and have been completely blasted for stating it by several posters on this forum.

To explore some possible reasons why the USEF isn't doing more, could it be that they just don't see the benefit from a business perspective? What I'm getting at, if they did pay the money to send them, do they feel that those funds spent wouldn't materilize into a monetary benefit back into the organization? After all, they are a business and have to maintain fiscal responsibility which is what is allowing them to basically milk competitors dry with excessive fee after excessive fee. So, if they paid for those competitors to go, would it allow them to rake in more funds? I think that THEY think it wouldn't benefit the USEF by allowing them to rake in more.

It is the same with the tracking. Most of the horses are coming in from overseas, so THEY think, why should they spend the money and time to track horses for the europeans!!? Yes, some american breeders would benefit, but most of the organizations/breeders that would benefit would be foreign.

[YankeeLawyer]

I would support USEF/USET funds going to help pay for a US-bred horse to compete

There could be a special Born in the USA fund to help defray the cost of a US-bred horse traveling for competition.

[PineTreeFarm]

Please no more USEF fees even if it supports a good cause. Way too many fees already and some of them are a mystery.
For example the $5 USEF fee that combined with the $7 Drug fee makes up the $12 that you need to pay each time you show ( in addition to all the other show applied fees like 'grounds fee') at a USEF H/J show.
Does anybody know what that fee is for? At various times I was told it was a surcharge for the NGB legal fees. At other times I've been told the $5 goes to suport High Performance competition.

The suggestion about using HID fees to support activities won't do much good because the USEF HID is free or $10 depending on how you apply. The horse recording fee is too expensive already so why add another surcharge.

In looking at the USEF young horse list there are 12 horses that had qualifying scores high enough to meet the standard. Only 3 of them were US bred. So there really weren't that many that met the minimum and the minimum required is maybe too low to be competitive internationally. So raise all the money you can but not much to spend it on.

Guidestar has the form 990's for USEF and USET. If you look at those documents you can get some idea of where the USEF spends it's money and where the funds come from. The latest documents are from 2004 and I haven't had time to search for recent filings under a different name.

Tri is right, US trainers cxertainly respect the European methods, that' s
why many of the top horses are imports and tracking benefits go mostly to the Euro breeders,

[ise@ssl]

I don't completely agree with some of your comments. The reason these upper level riders go to Europe to buy young horses is because they have an abundance of trainers there to start young horses. Here many upper level riders consider it out of their range to actually "back" a young horse.

And I'm speaking about DRESSAGE "tri" - the horses going to the Young Horse Championships are NOT competing in Jumping.

[YankeeLawyer]

I don't completely agree with some of your comments. The reason these upper level riders go to Europe to buy young horses is because they have an abundance of trainers there to start young horses. Here many upper level riders consider it out of their range to actually "back" a young horse.


And many of the top trainers in Germany will tell you they do not want a GP rider starting their horses, precisely because GP riders do not have that expertise. The problem is we have very few riders who equal the top young horse trainers/riders over there, imo.

[YankeeLawyer]

And to whoever said you need 9s here to be competitive in Europe -- what were Royal Prince's qualifying scores here?

[Bundy]

In 2004 Royal Prince won the 5yo East Coast selection trial with the score of 9.82. He went on to place at Verden.

In 2005 he also won the east coast 6yo finals with an 8.58. He went on to Germany to compete - and didn't make the cut out of the first day.

[ise@ssl]

I also sometimes feel the judges here really don't understand how to score these classes. Many at the regional shows don't even have the rider stop and the end and comment to them - which is EXTREMELY important for the riders & their trainers to understand what the strengths and weaknesses were in the ride. When the score sheets come back the written comments are often of little use - many just underline words in the preprinted requirements. A rider pays $50 to ride in these classes -verbal feedback from the judges isn't asking for too much and would certainly help improve the scores to be competitive with Europe.

[tri]

ise, I realize that your are talking about DRESSAGE, as you put it, but you are also comparing it against EUROPE. In europe, jumper riders put a solid foundation of DRESSAGE on their young horses - 3/4/5 yr olds. But, here in the U.S. there is a lot of resistence to schooling young horses that much - something I think you are against as well. So if you want to be competitive in selling young horses with Europe, logic would depict that we start the horses quicker and get them in the rings earlier than is traditional....just like they do in europe - can't tell you how many buyers who state that they can go to europe, buy a 3 or 4 year old that is w/t/c, simple changes (or more), on the bit, etc versus shopping in america where the same age horses are sitting in a breeder's pasture or are barely green broke.

I think there are plenty of people who will start young horses here in the U.S. but breeders have turned up their noses at them thinking they need the GP rider to do it. Therefor, that part of our industry has not developed and organized to the level it could. And, again, the euro wb registries - who you would think would take an interest in developing that if it was such a problem for their breeders - haven't done squat to help. Instead they continue to market mostly to other breeders in what I call the "Alpaca syndrome".

[alexandra]

[...] I think there are plenty of people who will start young horses here in the U.S. but breeders have turned up their noses at them thinking they need the GP rider to do it. Therefor, that part of our industry has not developed and organized to the level it could. And, again, the euro wb registries - who you would think would take an interest in developing that if it was such a problem for their breeders - haven't done squat to help. Instead they continue to market mostly to other breeders in what I call the "Alpaca syndrome".

just check out this thread:

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=25344&referrerid=102476

[alexandra]

Donnermuth is bred by Schulte - Böcker from Geilenkirchen, Breeder of Florestan. Was sold 3 years ago via CHIO Sales to the US.
And also breeder of Fideraci ?

[YankeeLawyer]

In 2004 Royal Prince won the 5yo East Coast selection trial with the score of 9.82. He went on to place at Verden.

In 2005 he also won the east coast 6yo finals with an 8.58. He went on to Germany to compete - and didn't make the cut out of the first day.

Thanks. I had thought he had 8s both years, but obviously I was mistaken.

[ise@ssl]

Tri - please don't make representations about my breeding/training program. You don't identify yourself but I'm still confident you've never been to my farm.

We start horses when we feel they are ready for work and when we have the schedule and bereiters to do it correctly. Our horses FYI - are handled every single day from birth. Yes - even foals are on a leadline from day one. We do work them in hand from a young age as well. They are groomed in a grooming stall and vacuumed and never need more than a cotton leadline (unless they are colts in one of their macho phases). As far as backing - we feel alot depends on the growth of the horse and mental capacity.

No - I don't drag my youngsters around to breed shows - did in the past - found it wasn't worth it and way too expensive - both for the show costs and additional labor costs at the farm.

If we feel horses(&ponies) are candidates for either the stallion testing or young horse competition they would be on a different training timeline. Others - we go with what they can handle.

We have found forcing all horses into some sort of age schedule results in many of the brain fried and bad attitude horses/pones that we all see on a daily basis. Or worse - physical breakdown. We don't support the IHF because we feel they are unrealistic in their age classes (and it shows with so few entries) - if they pushed the age back they'd probably have 2x as many horses and up the competition a bit. We free jump young horses but feel over fence work - again depends on the horse.

I feel strongly the comment that most breeders want a GP RIDER to start their youngsters and turn up their nose is a bunch of HOOEY. One of the benefits of having trainers to start horses who also work with upper level trainers is that they benefit from it and then the horses do as well.

We train with the German Pyramid system - it's worked for the Europeans and is proven over and over again. Do we add a little NH with the kids on the ground - yes. We feel what's important is to put horses/ponies into a training program that focuses on developing the BASE FIRST. For some horses it works at one age - for others it takes what seems like forever - but in the end we want competitive horses and ponies that can move up and understand and accept the training and don't end up shutting down, burning out or breaking down.

[Cooper]

Just because you don't see the top riders riding their youngsters in the lower level stuff, doesnt mean they aren't bringing along some nice youngsters.

To be successful at these 5/6 yo championships, one needs a special horse. They must be very expressive with the big gaits. These horses are not necessarily going to be great FEI horses, those big gaits can be quite difficult to compress! I know plenty of upper level trainers that have their youngsters in a program, they may take them to a few shows for the experience, but the point for these horses is not to be HOY at training, 1st, 2nd............these horse are pointed towards a career as upper level horses. So, the trainers keep them at home, and you might not see much of them til they are capable of putting in a respectable PSG test.

Now, that being said, do I think we lack the depth of young horse starters that Europe has? ABSOLULTELY!!! It is our biggest weakness, in my opinion. Our breeders are producing some outstanding young horses that can go head to head with the best in the world. But what defines what happens to the product of their breeding program, is who that youngster ends up with.

I think there are some pretty nicely US bred horses that are adored by their ammy owners. They may never get past 3rd level, and you know what? That is ok, those horses have a great life. But, what I am saying is that very, very few of our homebreds go into a training program that can tap into their potential as fei horses.

[siegi b.]

Cooper - you've been reading my mind!! :-) Couldn't have said it any better!

[Tiki]

I think there are plenty of people who will start young horses here in the U.S. but breeders have turned up their noses at them thinking they need the GP rider to do it.I certainly don't need or want a GP rider to start my horse - that is not their job, however, there's a HUGE number of people here who call themselves trainers who are absolutely horrible at the job, including physically and mentally ruining young horses or instilling very bad work habits in young horses. Of course you can find some of these in any country in the world, but we seem to have a very disproportionate number of them here.

[YankeeLawyer]

Ditto Tiki, Cooper and that last post by ISE (I really agree re the IHF, and had a horse ruined in large part because of that program-- I will never prep and compete a youngster in that again).

[SueL]

I'll tell you why they don't focus on fund-raising for the Young Horse Championships. They USEF etal are still COMPLETELY IGNORANT about the fact that there IS a connection between the breeding programs and the success in various equine disciplines at the highest levels. Even though it's glaringly obvious why the European teams are the powerhouses for our Teams to constantly use as a target of achievement - they seem to REFUSE to see that the competition is connected to the the HUGE and worldwide successful breeding programs in those countries that are consistently in the medals.

I just don't know how we can make this any clearer to them. I had thought Denny Emerson's editorial about tracking horses would put some small lightbulb on at the top. It appears the most recent editorial in the COTH basicly talking about the TONS OF DEAD WOOD we have serving on the USEF boards is PAINFULLY ON POINT.

But it is so much easier to let the Europeons do the breeding and tracking. And sadly, in many cases, the initial training. :(

They don't need a small lightbulb, they need a huge freakin' bonfire. Denny is too nice. :)

We have good, responsible breeders in this country. Some of them frequent this board. Some do warmbloods, others like Fred and Silly Mommy continue to champion the Thoroughbred. My hat is off to them; someday we will understand their worth again. <nod>

True, it's mostly an uphill battle. But if you can dream it, you can, with enough smarts, knowledge and grit, do it.

Never give up on your dreams. They are what we are made of.

Sue

[Tiki]

Seems to me I remember a couple of years ago the USEF saying unequivocally that they would NOT support sending horses to Europe for the World Young Horse Championship. Also, as Alexandra said that any horses competing in these tests would have to be foaled in the country that they represent. Now that we DO have Born in the USA horses competing, and doing well, coming up the pipeline, where do they think the horses are going to come from to eventually represent the US at the WEG, the World Cup and the Olympics. Oh yeah, I forgot, the USEF supports the European bred horses - and has sponsored seminars teaching people how to go to Europe to buy European bred horses. Duh!! Our NGB!

[DownYonder]

Re: Cesar Parra and Donovan - this is from Eurodressage.com:

"Cesar is also not going to Germany to the 2007 World Championships for Young Dressage Horses with the 6-year old Oldenburg stallion Donavan (by Diamond Hit x Consul). Facing extremely difficult eligibility requirements for the World Championships, Parra found out at the end of the entire U.S. official selection process that winning the U.S Young Horse Selection Trials with a score of 8.268 aboard the American owned Donavan was not enough to represent the United States in Verden. Even though the horse is owned by Cesar’s close friends and sponsors Dr. Jackson and Carolyn Morgan, Cesar cannot represent Donavan for the U.S. as a Colombian citizen. To obtain a wild card and represent his native country Colombia in Verden, the horse has to be Colombian owned. Qualifying for Verden proved to be a catch-22."

[YankeeLawyer]

Re: Cesar Parra and Donovan - this is from Eurodressage.com:

"Cesar is also not going to Germany to the 2007 World Championships for Young Dressage Horses with the 6-year old Oldenburg stallion Donavan (by Diamond Hit x Consul). Facing extremely difficult eligibility requirements for the World Championships, Parra found out at the end of the entire U.S. official selection process that winning the U.S Young Horse Selection Trials with a score of 8.268 aboard the American owned Donavan was not enough to represent the United States in Verden. Even though the horse is owned by Cesar’s close friends and sponsors Dr. Jackson and Carolyn Morgan, Cesar cannot represent Donavan for the U.S. as a Colombian citizen. To obtain a wild card and represent his native country Colombia in Verden, the horse has to be Colombian owned. Qualifying for Verden proved to be a catch-22."

That sounds wrong to me. It should only be the nationality of the horse's owners that matters. Does anyone have a copy of the rules?

[Bundy]

http://www.usef.org/documents/disciplines/dressage/2007WBCCriteria.pdf

See page 2. It is NOT required for the rider to be a US citizen.

[YankeeLawyer]

http://www.usef.org/documents/disciplines/dressage/2007WBCCriteria.pdf

See page 2. It is NOT required for the rider to be a US citizen.

Thanks, that is what I thought.

[Tiki]

Hmmmm. As I recall, when Hilltop bought Rousseau and he qualified for the World's, Nicolette von Lieropp, a Dutch citizen was riding him and he was listed under the Dutch flag on the results. Hilltop also bought Bugatti and he was ridden by Michael Klimke and was listed as German when he competed. He qualified in the German selection trials and at one point I remember seeing that he qualified in Germany for the US, but was shown with a German flag. It seems that the start lists and results are listed by the citizenship of the rider, not the owner of the horse. There have been a few others with the owner and horse of one country and the rider another and they all seemed to be listed under the rider's nationality.

[DownYonder]

Sounds like Parra got some bad info from someone. But one would think someone as competition savvy as he is would have read the rules.

Tiki, that is interesting about how they list the horses according to the nationality of the rider. Maybe it has to do with which national federation the rider belongs to. Were Rousseau's Dutch rider and Bugatti's German rider USEF members?

[ise@ssl]

Hey - the USET sent Kathleen Raine and shipped her horse to Australia as the team alternate and never read the rules!! The Alternate had to be one of the Team members with a different horse! So in reality she couldn't have ridden even if one of the Team members couldn't ride. So NOT reading the rules (in this case the FEI rules for the Olympics) wasted alot of money shipping a horse that couldn't compete and left the US Team without a qualified alternate horse.

[siegi b.]

I've got news for Dr. Parra.... with a score of 8.2something% he doesn't need to bother trying to get to Germany. He's not even going to be in the running.

[ahf]

Siegi, in all seriousness, how do you know what an 8.2 here translates into scorewise over there?

It's not like the usual GP scoring, where the judges have to KNOW the horse over there before they'll give it anything respectable. THe judges over there haven't, for the most part, had TIME to figure out if they like a particular horse or not.

Seriously....I think it's entirely possible that our judges over here are not as free with those 9's as they are over there....

But as Dennis Miller says, that's just my opinion and I could be wrong.

As far as the advising aspect of the USEF, I just ASSUMED someone in the USEF office steered the man wrong. Which is kinda a sad commentary.

[YankeeLawyer]

Let me just say if I got an 8.2 on my horse and qualified, I would be on the first plane over there and do my best. I think the experience alone is phenomenal and it is a huge honor to be invited to compete.

Then again, I did just watch the film Rudy yesterday, which just confirmed by own belief that hard work will get you anywhere you want to go ; ).

It seems to me that Eurodressage may have their facts muddled. But in case they don't, does anyone know Dr. Parra well enough to shoot him a friendly email? One would think he would check the rules, but he may have been given incorrect info by someone.

[siegi b.]

ahf - I hope you're right and the judges in Germany are more generous with their scores because the horses we're sending are going to need all the help they can get.

Seriously, go check the past participants of the competition and their scores to get an idea of what the scores are that are in the top three. I understand that some of it is the excitement of being part of it and all that, but I know I wouldn't spend 30K on sending a horse there knowing that it would only be an "also ran". Guess I don't have unlimited funds... :-)

[YankeeLawyer]

I understand that some of it is the excitement of being part of it and all that, but I know I wouldn't spend 30K on sending a horse there knowing that it would only be an "also ran". Guess I don't have unlimited funds... :-)

Hey, not like I do either, but while we are dreaming I suppose I could win the lottery the same week ; ). I do think you only live once and some things are worth stretching for if possible. I'd probably have to set up a lemonade stand to fund it : ).

[alexandra]

[...]
It's not like the usual GP scoring, where the judges have to KNOW the horse over there before they'll give it anything respectable. THe judges over there haven't, for the most part, had TIME to figure out if they like a particular horse or not.

Seriously....I think it's entirely possible that our judges over here are not as free with those 9's as they are over there....

But as Dennis Miller says, that's just my opinion and I could be wrong.

[...]

Where do you get that idea about they have to see a horse twice to decide if it is good enough ? These judges see many ´many more horses than anyone oin th world at the various shows they attend, just because there aremore horses. They judge what they see thatday and nothing more or less. I have been at the Young horse championship for the entire classes and I have never had the impression that there was a score not good enough just because the horse was not know to the judges.
And the judges are international so a person from let's say france has never before seen the horses from Germany as even with that short distance in miles it is a world between other european countries. And Hilda guerney was also already once on the judging team if I remember right. where should she have seen the horses before ?

[siegi b.]

Alexandra.... I think you misunderstood ahf. :-) She said that the GP dressage competitors in Europe sometimes get better marks than they deserve because of their name (i. e. Anky, Isabelle, etc.), and I think some of that is true. She also said that with the young horse competitions that wouldn't be the case, ergo some of the American horses may have a chance. You probably agree with that, don't you?

My take on the matter is that unless we have some really super HOMEBREDS we shouldn't bother. Why import a horse from Germany and then take him back to compete in the young horse championships? Makes no sense to me at all....

What do you think?

[tri]

Siegi! We agree! Hell surely must be freezing over! Just kidding.

"And the judges are international so a person from let's say france has never before seen the horses from Germany as even with that short distance in miles it is a world between other european countries"

Oh, don't get me started on french judges.... we've seen that already, haven't we?!

[YankeeLawyer]

Oh, don't get me started on french judges.... we've seen that already, haven't we?!

Was that ice dancing or dressage ; )

[Tiki]

Well, in the first place, the qualifying score here is lower than the qualifying score in Europe.

Second, we had 5 horses qualify for the 5yo and 7 for the 6yo classes. Of those, in the 5yo division, 4 out of 5 scored equal to or higher than 8.0, the highest was 8.376. In the 6yo division, 3 out of 7 scored equal to or higher than 8.0. The qualifying score in Germany and the Netherlands is 8.0 and many, many horses score in the high 8's and several score 9 or above.

Our judges are not as free with the 9's because most horses don't earn them. When they do they are freely given. Royal Prince qualified with a 9.82! One of my girlfriend's horses got an 8.5 for canter.

Yes, there are some judges who don't really seem to understand the tests and the scoring. I've seen judges double penalize a horse - for example, the trot was a 9 quality overall, but as a young horse, when there was a very loud noise in the next ring, he was momentarily distracted. The juddge took off points for the trot AND for submission. They're not supposed to do that. They only get 5 scores in the test, and young horse stuff, within reason, is supposed to be forgiven. At the least, it should be taken off the submission score, but not the gaits as well.

The whole show atmosphere is different over there as well and can be intimidating to horse and/or rider. That doesn't help the scores.

There are also a lot of professional riders riding young horses in Europe. Here, the professionals are not yet interested for the most part. There are very few who will even look at horses for these tests. There are a lot of AO's bringing these horses along with a little help from trainers, and showing them themselves. Talk about intimidating when they get to Verden!

[siegi b.]

Good post, Tiki!

[Touchstone Farm]

My take on the matter is that unless we have some really super HOMEBREDS we shouldn't bother. Why import a horse from Germany and then take him back to compete in the young horse championships? Makes no sense to me at all....

What do you think?

I agree. If a breeding association wants to fund the trip for the imported horse back to Europe, that's one thing since the breed connection is there. But...I don't think the USEF, for example, should fund the trip for an imported horse. A homebred, yes. (I own both homebred and imported, so no bias there.) I just think these classes are about breeding and highlight the breeders, so unless it's American bred.... If I was Doug Langer, I would be absolutely bursting with pride for breeding a horse like Cabana Boy and would probably keel over if the horse qualified to compete in Europe -- but could be revived if the powers that be told me they were paying for the trip for my American bred! :-)

[alexandra]

Alexandra.... I think you misunderstood ahf. :-) She said that the GP dressage competitors in Europe sometimes get better marks than they deserve because of their name (i. e. Anky, Isabelle, etc.), and I think some of that is true. She also said that with the young horse competitions that wouldn't be the case, ergo some of the American horses may have a chance. You probably agree with that, don't you?

My take on the matter is that unless we have some really super HOMEBREDS we shouldn't bother. Why import a horse from Germany and then take him back to compete in the young horse championships? Makes no sense to me at all....

What do you think?
Thanks Siegi, I have misunderstood that :-) Sorry AHF.

If I would have a great young horse in the US no matter where bred and would qualify for that and my overall goal would be to compete higher levels with it - i would save the money and risk of that trip, spend it in good training and stay with my rear end where I am - at home ! (well unless I would be also the breeder of that horse- than my pride might change my mind...)

The flight to Germany and back can always hold risks and even Scott Hassler and wife that know how young horses are ridden here looked a bit different than all the other pros from here. So an Ammy from the US or a person that does not have had those inside experiences as Scott, may have a hard time to ride in these events as the riding is a bit different than copeting in classes of the same level that are not for yong horses...

Anyway, if all are going than that is the first time that 4 horses are here - right. So jst cheer them along and see how they do. If they are good maybe one or the other owner of also US bred horsesmight try for qualifcation.

[arnika]

I don't mean any disrespect to American riders but reading alexandra's post made me think. If the European judges differentiate between a european style of ride and an american style and that affects the scoring, is there any problem with shipping the horse over and having one of their pros ride them? I mean with being able to show them legally, not problems as in being patriotic. Great question to bring up on 4th of July, huh?

Personally, I would think that style of ride shouldn't make any difference as long as the horse shows their quality of gaits but we all know that there is some(even if minimal) bias against American riding in Europe. I guess we are just considered the "new kid in town". Subjectively judged sports all seem to have the same issues.

[siegi b.]

Arnika - it's not so much a different style of riding than a style that shows off the horse's gaits to its fullest. Alexandra made a good point when she mentioned that it's different from riding in a regular dressage competition class. In the young horse classes the judges want to see "exhuberant" gaits, not what we would consider correct for a 1st or 2nd level test. And it's not just the riders that have to get used to riding like that but the horses also have to be trained to show those gaits.

Alexandra - who are your picks for this year?

[dressagefriend]

Maybe we should consider getting more European Judges in the US for some of the Young Horse Qualifiers and Championships. It would add a mix to the judging. Although I do not consider anything wrong with the Judging we have now. Our quality of horses and how we ride are improving. It is true that the Young Horses are ridden differently in Europe than here. I think we try to keep the relaxation in our Young Horses.

[alexandra]

Arnika I would not say they differentiate american style European style. They just differentiate at what they see and that's it. The spanish or portuguese riders who were also there with their horses ride also in a style that is more hmh call it relaxed maybe.

As said there is a difference between showing these young horses in classes where there are scores for gaits or in classes where "just" the rideablitiy counts. We have the same over here - lots of riders whodo not even bother to send their horses through these classes as they say to win there I need to ride a bit different that I would ride with my future huge GP classes in mind. We have had these different opinions for years. A result was a change in the material classes. First they changed the name material class to "ridinghorsetest", than the scores and requirements for them were changed. And now from 2008 on there will be a completely new test in addition t the normal "Material class" as most people still say.These new test, with an awful name that I hesitate to try to translate, will have no scores on gaits. Just rideablity, being relaxed, how it reacts to aids and other things e.g. the riders should get off the horse and lift a foot.

[alexandra]

[...]
Alexandra - who are your picks for this year?

For Compliment on Caribic (Pretty "strange" pedigree Chromatic xx - Grundsee - Abhang). She is pregnant - Yeah !

And we just decided for various reasons to breed Suaheli this year. That is Farewell III - Sandro Hit - Rouletto - Prince Thatch xx. First check either Wednesday or Friday next week. Keep your fingers crossed she held onto her huge follicle for a few days. And I hope we have "hit" it...

[ahf]

For Compliment on Caribic (Pretty "strange" pedigree Chromatic xx - Grundsee - Abhang).

I LOVE it!!!!!!!! Talk about thinking outside the box and taking a chance! LOVE it! I hope you are right Alexandra - with your pick....

[siegi b.]

Alexandra - I love Farewell III! You'll have to send me pics of the foal, actually of both foals!:-)

Fingers crossed und Daumen gehalten!

Siegi

[alexandra]

Siegi my friend will have a real collection of Farewell III foals. I will send you pics of those aswell for your interest, first once will arrive in January I think. He used him at least 3 or even 4 times ggg. He has a very nice "durchgezogenen Stutenstamm". What would that be in english ?


AHF: Both my mares you can see on my homepage, just for seeing them and see if that choice might match.