VA: Fox hound snatched by Peta employee; facing felony charges [Archive]

Glimmerglass

Jun. 27, 2007, 11:00 AM

Associated Press story Wed June 27, 2007 (http://www.dailypress.com/news/local/virginia/dp-sou--huntingdog0627jun27,0,7419636.story?coll=dp-headlines-virginia)

`Rescued' hound returned, woman arrested
The Associated Press

COURTLAND, Va. -- An animal rights advocate who said she was rescuing a stray will be prosecuted on a felony theft charge for loading a deputy sheriff's hunting dog into a van and driving away.

A judge on Tuesday allowed the case to proceed against Andrea Florence Benoit, 25, who contends she was worried about the dog's welfare and only wanted to return it to its owner.

The Chesapeake woman picked up the fox hound while working in Southampton County for Norfolk's People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. Prosecutors dropped charges against another PETA worker in the van.

A motorist who saw the women pick up the dog called Southampton County Deputy Sheriff J.T. Cooke Jr., an animal control officer for the county. Cooke found the van a few minutes later and discovered his Walker hound in the back.

Cooke testified that he had let out several of his hounds the night before to chase foxes, and one failed to return. The dog carried dye markings of numbers on its side and "JT" on its hip and wore a neon yellow collar bearing Cooke's name and cell phone number, the deputy said.

The animal also had been outfitted with an orange collar fitted with an antenna that could track the animal for three to four miles.

The tracking collar was found near the side of the road where the dog was picked up.

The women were following PETA policy by not directly trying to contact the dog's owner through the phone number on the other collar, Benoit's lawyer, Stephen D. Benjamin, said. They intended to call their office so PETA could reach Cooke, he said.

While General District Judge Robert B. Edwards said he had no doubt that Benoit believed she was doing the right thing, "the right thing in this case was a felony."

The case will be heard in Circuit Court.

Ah those Peta nuts :D

Calamber

Jun. 27, 2007, 12:04 PM

When I moved to Loudoun County in 1989 I had a lovely country vet who kept foxhounds. One day while driving to work I saw a woman pulling a foxhound into her sports car across from his home/clinic. When I went to see him shortly thereafter I asked him if he got his hound back and told him what I saw. He gave me a funny look and went to the phone and called the local hunt. Seems one of the their champion hounds went missing after a hunt. PETA called them and told them they had the hound and were not bringing her back, the person who picked her up was their lead legal counsel. They took the dog out of state and said that the hunt was abusing it because they made the dogs run "SOMETIMES FOR UP TO 25 MILES".:lol::lol::lol:
Anyway, I had to go make a statement to the police and because I remembered what the car looked like they got their hound back. The hunt was very grateful and asked me to come walk the hounds with them and gave me a Christmas present that year. What a bunch of ding a lings, but also dangerously off kilter ones.

Orn1218

Jun. 27, 2007, 12:47 PM

LexInVA

Jun. 27, 2007, 12:50 PM

Mudroom

Jun. 27, 2007, 12:58 PM

"the right thing in this case was a felony"

It is awfully hard in this case to plead any kind on innocent motive when you take off the hound's tracking collar and throw it away.

I don't have any allusions that she or PETA will change their ways because of being found guilty of a crime, but maybe now she'll have a criminal record, probably be out on some kind of probation and maybe next time they can really throw the book at her.

magnolia73

Jun. 27, 2007, 01:10 PM

Yeah- I've picked up strays in the past and get all happy to see a collar with phone number since it means I don't have a dog to deal with- one call and reunited. I don't see how being a member of PETA requires you to call their office to return a dog..... I'm also suprised that it is a felony to steal a dog. Normally felony v misdemeanor is based on value of items stolen.

Actually- knowing how dingy some of those people can be, I can see where some dingbat animal lover could have picked up the dog, seen the paint and collar and thought it escaped from a lab or something, especialy someone not familiar with hunting. I probably would be confused if a dog like that showed up in my yard.

cholmberg

Jun. 27, 2007, 01:27 PM

I'm also suprised that it is a felony to steal a dog. Normally felony v misdemeanor is based on value of items stolen.

Have you checked the price of a top quality hunting dog? :yes: They are not
cheap, esp once fully trained. I'm thrilled to hear this woman is being prosecuted.

magnolia73

Jun. 27, 2007, 02:01 PM

I guess it must be like horses- a whole different world with fabulous ways to spend money! He must have been glad to get the dog home.

Curb Appeal

Jun. 27, 2007, 03:35 PM

In many open places yes it is. Even if you aren't a fox hunter. Heck my neighbors down the street let their dog out at night and it just wanders about as it pleases.

My aunt and uncle live near Cave In Rock, IL and this is common practice there. Unfortunately, it is also a dumping ground for strays. They, and their neighbors, keep a list of who owns what dogs. For any unidentifiable ones, they follow the SSS rule, otherwise they end up with packs that attack livestock.

Renae

Jun. 27, 2007, 03:38 PM

I hope not to get flamed for this, as I do not support this woman or pretty much anything PETA does for that matter. What she did was wrong and theft. On the flip side though, is it normal to let your dogs out to go roaming all night? I realize this is probably open country, but I don't understand the concept of opening your doors to let the dogs out to run all night. I am a product of the suburbs, so please be gentle.

When you take dogs hunting sometimes they get lost, thus wy the owner put several ways of identifying the animal and conatcting him on the dog. The normal person if they found the dog would call the owner directly, not cart it off so the owner would have to pay a fee to get it back from the shelter, or more likely they were going to try to get away with never contacting the owner and placing the dog in a "better" home.

J Swan

Jun. 27, 2007, 06:25 PM

I can put this incident into context for those who might be interested in background information.

There are different types of foxhunting in the US. What most folks might be familiar with is the "English style" of foxhunting, complete with scarlet, Meltons, shiny horses, etc.

But there is another type of foxhunting in the US; particularly in the South. They are often referred to as "night hunters". In such a case, the hounds are released in the area to be hunted, and the hunter tracks them by the sounds of the hounds speaking.

There is also coon hunting, deer hunting, all sorts of hunting done on foot with one or more scent hounds.

In Virginia, we have been having a LOT of problems with people picking up dogs actively hunting, and being stolen. The hounds are either working, on their way home, or have lost the scent - but they are not dumped dogs, and they are not strays.

In these cases - most, if not all the hounds have been wearing tracking collars. The hounds have been disappearing in a certain area over a span of time, and their collars have been found discarded on the road - or in some cases, in bodies of water like lakes or ponds.

In the case of this trial, PETA employees have been (allegedly), specifically targeting hunting dogs and taking them, removing their tracking collars - and the hounds are never seen again. They are not adopted out - they are euthanized just like all the other animals PETA takes in.

So many hunting dogs have disappeared that legislation was sponsored, and it passed, that makes removing a collar from a hunting dog a felony in Virginia.

Please understand that this was an intentional act - not an act of a kind but mistaken person trying to do a good thing. The area in which this incident occurred had so many hounds disappearing that the police put the area under surveillance.

If any of y'all hunt, you know that hunting dogs are often very shy around strangers, and won't willingly jump into a waiting vehicle unless it belongs to their owner or another trusted human. I have no doubt that these people somehow restrained an unwilling dog, took off its collar and disposed of it - and also would have disposed of the dog had they not been caught.

There is a local animal rights group (bunch of nutters affiliated with PETA and HSUS) that sent an email out complaining loudly that this legislation was passed protecting hunting dogs.

I'm sure all of us at one time or another has taken in a wayward animal - and promptly contacted the authorities and/or the owner to ensure it was reunited with its owner. This is not the case in the incident referred to in the OP's post.

Again, many breeds of hunting dogs are released at night, to return the next day. Depending upon the species hunted, the preferences of the hunter, the type of hound - those are all variables. But lots of folks, particularly in the South, hunt with their dogs - and it's not the "English style" foxhunting many of us are more familiar with.

As an aside, if you ever get the opportunity to go out hunting with these hounds - it is just wonderful.

This person being tried represents just one incident - but as I said - the police were aware of hounds disappearing and tracking collars being found discarded along this stretch of highway. They just happened to catch this one PETA employee - but there are many other disappearances, with witnesses - that had the same particulars.

From what we know of the other trial of two PETA employees (who were convicted of littering for dumping euthanized animals in a strip mall dumpster) - PETA does not operate a shelter - and they are not in the business of adopting out animals. They euthanize almost every animal in their custody - even if they promised the owner a good home or a chance at being adopted.

gkittredge

Jun. 27, 2007, 06:43 PM

Jessica,

Well said!

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals - What a load of crap.

I could say it more eloquently, but I am sure the COTH moderators would give me the boot! :)

Send them to Gitmo. Domestic terrorism at its finest.

J Swan

Jun. 27, 2007, 06:59 PM

Don't get me started on that *!(@*!!(*@$% group. I've been following this case from the start. Makes me want to vomit.

Forget Gitmo - send these folks to Camp JSwan.

birdsong

Jun. 27, 2007, 07:53 PM

Reminded me of being a child at my grandparents where they raised July Hounds (anyone know that breed??) My grandfather could be heard out late at nights with the hounds hunting.
Grandmother always had a huge pack of these dogs and now that I'm older I can appreciate them. There are some very "elite " breeders of these dogs now.
They lived out in the country and owned all of the surrounding land for miles. I couldn't imagine thieves picking them up!! It should be criminal

yellow-horse

Jun. 27, 2007, 08:01 PM

i don't condone someone taking off a tracking collar and snatching the dog but on the other hand there are some pretty pitiful hounds running loose with no identification
most people that hunt with dogs have a kennel license due to the amount of dogs they have, in my county you can get a kennel license easily, i have one, one of the stipulations for a kennel license is the dog is either confined or when out under the control of the owner at all times, it is not the law in va that you can let your dog run all night without supervision
i've returned many hounds who had identification, or if they had a tracking collar wait for the owner to find them, there are so many loose around me that we actually have a little 10x10 pen for any hounds who are not just passing through, you can tell the ones that are passing through, they say hello and move on, for the ones that are hanging around, running after my goats or driving my dogs crazy i pen them up and either call a/c or if they have id call the owner
anyway, i had 2 nice hounds here with tracking collars and id on them, good thing i called the owenr was way out of range
the way i rescue hounds is if it is pitiful with no id i turn them into a/c, let the a/c officer handle trying to track down the owner and then officially adopt the dog after the waiting period, the last thing i want is some guy coming along saying i neutered his prize dog
and i have picked up dogs along the road, if they don't have tracking collars, really if you live in the country you can tell the abandoned dogs, they are the same dog going up and down the roads for days, most hunting dogs will go home at some point
well there's no excuse for snatching a dog with a tracking collar on

CuriosoJorge

Jun. 27, 2007, 08:12 PM

Courtland is very rural. "Treeing walkers" are often used to hunt raccoons, so no it would not be unusual for them to be out at night. Totally agree with JSwan on PETA.

dray

Jun. 27, 2007, 11:05 PM

PETA...what a bunch of alpha hotels with no grip of the REAL world...just some simulation game they play in DC.

People Entitled tobe A.....ses - that's what it really stands for.

GITMOs to good for them.

It makes me just furious. Put her in a pen with some of the diseased monkeys over in Vienna or wherever that place used to be.

Donna
Novice's Mom - yep - he's a Foxhound!!!!

dray

Jun. 27, 2007, 11:12 PM

I"m a member of PETA2

People Eating Tasty Animals - I don't eat the beef, veal, pork or Bambis (stuff that ever had eye lashes - I know, but it's trauma-nduced eccentricity from being in vet school) but my hubby does and I sure don't chastise anyone else about it. I do wear leather shoes and TACK!!!!! And chse Coyotes, etc...so I"m NOT a PETA freak.

I have a punishment for her...force feed her veal!!!!!

Donna

J Swan

Jun. 28, 2007, 06:50 AM

Yeah! July, Trigg, Bywater - all important lines.

You know what really gets my goat? The fact that there are a lot of really godawful jerks who give hunters a bad name.

I think it's a real black eye for lawful and ethical hunting - with dogs, rifle, bow, black powder, etc.

Most hunters take really great care of their huntin' dawgs. To the untrained eye, these hounds often appear "thin", and often have scars or other honorable wounds. But these are not poorly kept hounds! They're just very healthy, fit hounds with bumps and bruises from doing what they do best.

On the other hand, there are those, and y'all know who I'm talkin' about - who take horrible care of their hounds. I refuse to call them hunters - they are just trashy people who lack compassion for any living thing.

The best we can do for our sport is to be good ambassadors, and to explain how our hounds are cared for, why they might have some scratches or scars, and to explain how hunting with dogs works.

It is NOTHING like what the PETA/HSUS types portray. There's enough real abuse and neglect out there - I wish AR groups would focus on that instead of perfectly legitimate activities.

Thanks to the Virginia General Assembly, it will now be a serious crime to remove a collar from any hunting dog.

For those who lost their hounds - and just found a collar in a pond, in a ditch, or alongside a road - I'm sorry for your loss. They ended up being stuck with a needle and placed into the big freezer at PETA headquarters.

I hope this person is convicted.

magnolia73

Jun. 28, 2007, 07:15 AM

For those who lost their hounds - and just found a collar in a pond, in a ditch, or alongside a road - I'm sorry for your loss. They ended up being stuck with a needle and placed into the big freezer at PETA headquarters.

I'm suprised you don't hear more press about PETA condoning this type of behavior. For all the good they could do, they focus on crap like this. There are millions of stray and neglected dogs, plus plenty of people in the cities and suburbs that let dogs out to kill cats or each other....and they focus their efforts on rural hunting dogs.

Seriously- my friend- good person, animal lover, gives them money hoping they are helping chickens, promoting vegetarianism, helping cows get a better life and strays. I would love to see a publication NYT, washington Post do an expose on how they waste donations stealing hunting dogs- beloved in some cases no doubt- and euthanizing them.

J Swan

Jun. 28, 2007, 07:28 AM

I know what you mean, Magnolia. When I worked at a nonprofit, I was amazed at how priorities are set within organizations. Often a priority was set not because it was important, or because there was a true need, opportunity to make a real impact - but for political reasons, or to please a high dollar donor, board member or trustee, or even because the target was "sexier" than doing something like paying for a spay/neuter clinic.

I became jaded towards big charities after a while. I'd look at membership records of little old ladies - sending in 25$ to help the rainforest - and see how the money went to all sorts of things - but not one thin dime was spent on producing one measureable goal. But it still counted a "mission related" and not administrative expenses - just because of how the money was entered into the G/L.

PETA is no different. Marketing is very well funded, and people are targeted with great sophistication. It pays off. But as far as helping any animal in need - little to nothing makes its way that far down the chain.

I'll stick with local and small charities - at least I can keep an eye on them.

I wish the IRS had the ability to police charities more - but there are over 9 million charities in the US. How Peta maintains its tax exempt status is beyond me.

Gnalli

Jun. 28, 2007, 08:45 AM

Have you checked the price of a top quality hunting dog? :yes: They are not
cheap, esp once fully trained. I'm thrilled to hear this woman is being prosecuted.

There are a couple of people that paid $2500 for a good coon dog-and I am not sure that particular dog had papers.

Tiki

Jun. 28, 2007, 08:54 AM

They are not adopted out - they are euthanized just like all the other animals PETA takes in.How on earth can any living being think that this is ethical treatment of animals and give these jerks money is beyond my comprehension. These are the jerks that spout that all animals should be free to live their own lives, yet they actively go out and trap them and kill them. How can any member of PETA who does this be considered to care for animals in any way?

Glimmerglass

Jun. 28, 2007, 09:08 AM

Not that I cited this article to turn it into a Peta discussion - I thought the fox hound pilfering was relevant enough - but for those who want evidence of Peta euthanizing "found" or otherwise acquired pets, here you go with State required statistics:

Chart of Peta's kill rate - 80% over the last 8 years (http://www.petakillsanimals.com/petaKillsAnimals.cfm)

(The group has ignored the State of Virginia’s March 31 deadline (http://www.virginia.gov/vdacs_ar/cgi-bin/Vdacs_search.cgi?link_select=facility&form=fac_select&fac_num=157&year=2006) for providing its 2006 pet-killing statistics.)

Accordingly one could easily suggest that this fox hound - minding his own business and working with full markings - if not found in the van would have been likely euthanized. That is what is repugnant.

They annuall take in over $25 million from fundraising, grants, and merchandise sales despite being anything but a positive ray of hope for animal welfare. So utterly sick in my view.

J Swan

Jun. 28, 2007, 09:11 AM

There is no doubt that a lot of PETA members are true animal lovers and would never condone such acts. But their membership does support the goals of the organization - which is to eliminate all human contact with animals, and the eradication of domesticated animals.

It is true that PETA does not operate a shelter. Of course, they aren't required to - nothing wrong with that at all. But they do take in a lot of animals. That is what the freezer is for.

I can't give you numbers for 2006 - because PETA failed to meet the deadline for filing with Virginia. But the most recent number is 90% kill rate -unnaturally high. Extremely unnatural.

The DEA is also investigating PETA for allowing non veterinarians to administer euthanasia drugs. PETA has traveling vans with employees that euthanize animals in the back of the van. They may not still do that with the bad press they've received - but until the end of 2006 that was still an active practice.

In Virginia, if you surrender your animal the recipient can immediately euthanize it - even if the recipient made oral assurances that the animal would not be euthanized, but would be placed for adoption.

This law was intended to permit animal shelters to make hard decisions more quickly; as they are so often overcrowded. However, this law was used to arrive at the "not guilty" verdict for the PETA employees that obtained animals under false pretenses and killed them.

I still think the law is a good one - but it was never intended to protect the people who killed those animals, without a license to handle the drugs, in the back of a van - in full view of each other.

So hopefully the DEA will ensure PETA obeys the laws regarding who can have access to, and administer, euthanasia drugs.

It was kind of scary to learn that they have kill kits in the back of their vans - and that any employee had access to lethal drugs.

When people say things like PETA does some good things and so the bad things should be tolerated - I can't help but think that Hitler was a vegetarian and loved animals too, built the Autobahn, and was also responsible for genocide.

Meaning - the good does not outweigh the bad. PETA isn't ethical, and they don't love animals. They just don't think humans should interact with them - and that it's better an animal die than have contact with humans.

That's it in a nutshell.

I bet 10$ this person walks or gets a slap on the wrist.

LexInVA

Jun. 28, 2007, 09:14 AM

How on earth can any living being think that this is ethical treatment of animals and give these jerks money is beyond my comprehension. These are the jerks that spout that all animals should be free to live their own lives, yet they actively go out and trap them and kill them. How can any member of PETA who does this be considered to care for animals in any way?

It's all about propaganda. PETA has hundreds of promotional programs that range from sending mass messages to it's rabid followers to programs run by their regional and local members designed to appeal to the average animal lover. They target any and all demographics that are likely to provide any financial or physical support to their interests no matter how small that amount may be.

magnolia73

Jun. 28, 2007, 09:54 AM

Meaning - the good does not outweigh the bad. PETA isn't ethical, and they don't love animals. They just don't think humans should interact with them - and that it's better an animal die than have contact with humans.

Their marketing is so misleading. My friend has a vegan cookbook from them with recipes by celebrities- all appearing in photos with their pets etc. :( I'm sure 90% of their donors do not actually share their beliefs.

Kimberlee

Jun. 28, 2007, 10:15 AM

I can't believe that they would just take off his collar and not call the owner!!!!!

That is BS!!!! That is deliberate. This is so upsetting, especially when reading the post re how common this is in that area. Why don't they go rescue dogs that need it? Oh, that's right, because then they would acutally be helping, and not just making a political point!

http://www.consumerfreedom.com/news_detail.cfm/headline/3391 - Different article, same subject.

plain bay

Jun. 28, 2007, 10:53 AM

LexInVA

Jun. 28, 2007, 11:00 AM

:mad::mad: I hate PETA as much as the rest of you, all they do is make life worse for most of the animals they come in contact with :mad::mad:

I do have a question though & please don't blast me, I really know nothing about hunting. It just doesn't seem safe to me to have hunting dogs (or any dogs for that matter) running around the country side unsupervised at all, but with collars on. Especialy when there's other ways to identify them like tattoos. What happens if they get stuck on something & hang themselves? Does this happen much or not? I would think it would be a regular occurence...but that's just the impression I get from this thread.

Can someone enlighten me :)

No it's not safe but the fact of the matter is that as long as the dog is on YOUR property, it can do what it wants unless you restrain it and many owners really aren't concerned about their animals getting hurt because it rarely happens on their properties. When they do get hurt it usually means they were far from where they are supposed to stay (usually near the owner's house or kennel or doghouse) or they went off the immediate property.

REINRIDER

Jun. 28, 2007, 11:08 AM

Jswan,
Thank you! You said it better than I could have! Courtland IS rural! This incident happened right up the road less than 1/4 mile from my house! James Thomas is a life long friend of mine who, for anyone who might have missed it, was the responding deputy on the scene! He had to call another officer to the scene once he realized it was actually his dog! What an uproar this caused for all of us locals!! In Southampton County, one thing you don't want to do is mess with the hunters' dogs!!! ;) Most of these guys are seriously into their dogs and they aren't cheap! For us women folk here, it's a standing joke (but true too) if you don't like hunting and fishing (or a man who does), don't marry a man from Southampton Co!

As the only girl in the middle of 4 brothers, I learned if you can't beat 'em, join 'em so I learned to deer hunt along with them. My dad is one of the hunt masters for our organized club and he is also a "dog driver". Each dog driver raises and/or purchases dogs for his pack. They are trained and cared for all year long. Lots of money is invested in feeding and care as well as tracking collars to get them home. A lot of the same guys who foxhunt also deer hunt. From first hand experience I can tell you that even with tracking collars, sometimes it's darn near impossible to catch a "running hound". There are a lot of well trained hounds here. Some are very shy and CANNOT be caught except by their owner, which can be a big pain when you're trying to prevent them from heading somewhere unsafe. Others jump into the first vehicle they can find or stay under your feet instead of doing their job. Some of these dogs hunt so well that they WILL NOT stop running until they are worn completely out. Try catching a dog who is hot on the tail of a herd of deer and see what happens! If he's not ready to be caught, you won't get near him. BTDT! Again it is very rural and even though you may have a tracking collar on the dog, you don't always have access. We have some very large swamps here! There's also the problem of politics. Some landowners don't allow permission to go on properties, a few rival hunts have been known to catch a dog in one place, deactivate the collar, and use the dog to hunt somewhere else. Oh, did I mention the collars are battery powered and the magnet has to be removed before release? This happens on occasion. A collar with the magnet is useless. So is a dead battery. Some of these dogs who won't stop or are difficult to catch often run themselves to the point of looking like they are starved near to death. Another thing, each club has their own set of dog drivers. 99% of all of them have tracking collars and each club, like their CB radio channel, will have one frequency for their collars so they can all track each others dogs. I have seen every year, how the guys, dad, brothers, and myself have stayed out long into the night trying to round up these dogs. Whether the dogs are sent out to run day or night, I can guarantee that the vast majority of the owners want to get them back safely and as soon as possible!

Regretably, there are those every year who buy dogs each fall, hunt them, and then just simply let them go at the end of the season. That is not the majority I can assure you.

I'm sorry if I'm rambling but this still gets me fired up, even though it happened awhile back.

yellow-horse

Jun. 28, 2007, 12:00 PM

i have to agree a fit hound who's been running is thin, much like the differnce between a fit racehorse and my backyard fatties
believe me i live very rural, courtland would be the big city, in my county we have no incorporated towns
the last 2 deer hounds that showed up here had tracking collars on, when they came up on my proch they had some scratches on them and their paws were skinned up, when i called the owner, he had said he was traning some new dogs at the hunt club and those 2 had gotten away, they had been gone all night, the hunt club was a good 15 miles way and i doubt these dogs ran as the crow flies, all the superficial wounds were fresh, no old scars, both in good weight, perhaps a little dehydrated, i gave them some water, no food, and the guy was here to collect them in about an hour, to me they were lost and the owner agreed they had gotten themselves lost, if i had assumed they were just hunting they might not have been reunited with their owner, i figure if the tracking collar is working soon enough the owner will show up and if it isn't i'm sure they appreciate the call, i know i would, anyway, the dog is on my property and doesn't belong here
my main issue with running dogs at night is i do have livestock, granted just a handful of goats and a couple of horses but i'd just as soon grab a loose dog with a collar and return the dog to the owner. i don't feel like spending the night with a loose dog running my goats around and driving my own dogs nuts
one can be sensible about these things, a very emaciated dog showed up here, i think she had been staying away from people but was starting to get desperate, anyway, she had a collar and i called the owner, the first thing i said was i think i might have your dog how long has she been missing, if he had said since yesterday i would have called a/c and let them handle it the dog had 100's of ticks and fleas on it and was terribly thin, but the guy said she was gone 3 weeks, and he was thrilled someone rounded her up and kept her in one spot so he could come get her, she was abot 11 miles from his house, she seemed pretty happy to see him
i don't see how anyone can justify snatching a dog up and removing it's id and taking off with it, i can understand having driven these roads for years, that sometimes you see the same loose dog up and down the raod, and i will call a/c and let them know to go get it, i'd rather not run it over

J Swan

Jun. 28, 2007, 12:06 PM

You won't find much flaming going on in the hunting forum. I've never met a bunch of nicer (and crazier) people. Eventers come in a very close second.

LexinVA answered your question, but I'll expand on it since I had a lot of caffeine this morning.

There are several schools of thought on the use of collars, and I don't know who is right. Maybe nobody is...

Identification can take several forms: tattoo, collar, microchip, paint, that sort of thing. The problem with a microchip is that unless you happen to have a reader with you - there is no way to identify the owner. If the shelter has a reader - it may or may not be compatible, and requires the finder to drive to the shelter (if they know where it is) and turn the animal over. Which is fine - but requires a lot more effort.

Then there are those that are so concerned about a dog getting hung up - that they refuse to put any type of collar on a dog. Those hounds may or may not be tattooed or microchipped - again - those methods require additional investigation to discover the owner.

Tracking collars are a whole other ball game. Those aren't for identification necessarily - they are for locating your dog. It helps hunters find an errant hound, or even to locate one that may have gotten hung up.

I'm referring to ethical, responsible folks - not the lowlifes that dump their dogs at the end of hunting season. Honestly, I'd prefer they shot the dog rather than set it loose. But I guess that's the subject of a different thread.

I don't know what the answer is. I guess a lot could depend on the area hunted. If it's heavily fenced with mesh, or has a lot of old downed wire, a hunter might make a different decision than a hunter who hunts in open country or lightly wooded areas. I'm too much of a novice to really give you a more educated answer.

In the case Glimmerglass posted about - removing the tracking collar would result in the owner not being able to ever locate his dog - much less identify it. Even if the dog had been microchipped, I can assure you the intent was not to reunite the dog with its owner. PETA does not have holding facilities for animals. Live animals, anyway.

I only hope that the deputy was able to obtain fingerprints off the discarded collar - linking the accused to its removal.

Again - this was part of a pattern of disappearances.

REINRIDER - my stepfamily was the same way. They are farmers in Buckingham County. If you wanted to do anything besides sit around and listen to the old folks tell stories about people you never met - you went hunting with your cousins. Your only other choice was to pick and snap beans, help can, weed, milk cows..... you get the picture.

:mad::mad: I hate PETA as much as the rest of you, all they do is make life worse for most of the animals they come in contact with :mad::mad:

I do have a question though & please don't blast me, I really know nothing about hunting. It just doesn't seem safe to me to have hunting dogs (or any dogs for that matter) running around the country side unsupervised at all, but with collars on. Especialy when there's other ways to identify them like tattoos. What happens if they get stuck on something & hang themselves? Does this happen much or not? I would think it would be a regular occurence...but that's just the impression I get from this thread.

Can someone enlighten me :)

LexInVA

Jun. 28, 2007, 12:21 PM

One thing that you really have to be careful about is PETA infiltrating your group. PETA actually puts money, time, and training into getting it's members into legitimate positions where they will carry out PETA orders even if they go against the very bylaws of your group. For example, they have been known to monitor shelters with no-kill policies to see if they are in need of workers and they will send a member who is trained in euthanasia to work there and kill animals on the sly. Imagine the kind of damage they could do to a horse rescue or hunt club kennel if they planted someone in there! Here is a quote that sums up PETA's view on adoption and no-kill directly from their President: "PETA believes euthanasia is the kindest gift to a dog or cat unwanted and unloved."Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if they have property around and near hunt clubs they can use as command centers for their operations. They have a lot of money and nobody is really sure where any of it goes other than to promotional material and to pay some salaries. Given how easy it is to hide things from the IRS without actually breaking the law, I bet if PETA was audited, they would come up a little bit too clean.

Whistlejacket

Jun. 28, 2007, 12:31 PM

Ah...I probably will be sorry that I asked, but what possible (distorted) rationalization does PETA state as their justification for euthanizing a healthy animal?

Thanks...err...I think! ;)

J Swan

Jun. 28, 2007, 12:39 PM

LexinVa - I know for a fact that PETA does this. When I worked at The Nature Conservancy, we were the victims of a violent PETA protest. They stormed the building. They knew things about the layout of the offices and their occupants that only an employee could have known.

The road was closed by protesters milling about, some laying down on the street - and one guy was in a pig suit. The Arlington SWAT team had to be called out, and some of the employees had to barricade the main door because people were trying to break doors down. They also splashed red paint all over the front of the building. They also took control of every phone booth near the building and refused to allow anyone to us them. They used the phones to alert the media of their presence.

They tried to do the same thing the next year - but this time employees were prepared and the protest fizzled. I was sent out to watch the phones (this was in the mid 90's before everyone and his brother had a cell phone).

Anyway - it is standard practice for PETA to place people in employment, and have the person spy. But it's very careful orchestrated - any notes, or video taken are purposefully manipulated. Very skillful.

It's the only time I've ever really been frightened for my safety. I really felt hate emanating from those people. True hatred.

Oh - the reason we were targeted was because we were removing invasive species from a preserve in Hawaii - feral pigs. They were destroying endangered habitat.

LexInVA

Jun. 28, 2007, 12:52 PM

Ah...I probably will be sorry that I asked, but what possible (distorted) rationalization does PETA state as their justification for euthanizing a healthy animal?

Thanks...err...I think! ;)

Their rationalization is that the animal is unwanted at the moment they kill it therefore it is better to send it to Heaven then allow it to continue living in Hell. Frankly, I see PETA as a terrorist organization much like Hamas or Al Qaeda though somewhat less violent most of the time. In fact they operate much like a terrorist organization in many ways if you examine how they carry out their activities and the compartmentalized structure of the group. Notice how nobody ever really goes after PETA in court when something violent or illegal happens because the members are "acting on their own." I think that says a lot about what they really are and what they are willing to do to achieve their goals.

REINRIDER

Jun. 28, 2007, 01:05 PM

Most around here also have id tags stamped on the tracking collar as well as the regular collar. As for the incident here in Courtland, another neighbor noticed the van stopping and witnessed the PETA pests remove the collar and throw it in the ditch. They also recognized the markings on the dog so they knew who it belonged to before making the call to the sherriff's office.

JSwan...can't tell you how much I began to hate the summertime!!!! Canned so many veggies I swore I'd never ever have another garder as long as there was a grocery store nearby! Not only did we have a gardern bigger than most folks yard, my mom was so much of the old school waste not, she even would go to the neighbors' gardens and pick theirs as well!!! She still can't stand to let stringbeans stay on the vine long after she has run out of jars!! I honestly used to cry every summer when school let out!

Not only was I the only girl in the family, but added to that, I was the only girl in the whole neighborhead! Boy did I get picked on! No such thing as non contact or flag football either!:lol: Can you say "TOMBOY?" :D:lol:
Wouldn't trade it for anything though! At least I can take care of myself.

x-rab

Jun. 28, 2007, 01:37 PM

As a person who picks up stray dogs all the time, I really appreciate finding any method of identifying owners. We have found and reunited owners' the following breeds: Corgi, St. Bernard, Schnouzer (sp, Little grey dog), several mutts, and one Staffordshire Terrier. The ST has gotten out again since we found him last Labor Day. He had a rabies tag last labor day, but not on the subsequent outing. Really nice dog too, I hope they put the rabies tag back on him.

The peaches reference is to going to the Farmer's Market in Forest Park, GA, and coming home and peeling peaches until the juice ran off my elbows. We snapped peas and strung beans for canning too. It does bring back memories.

RHdobes563

Jun. 28, 2007, 03:00 PM

[QUOTE=magnolia73;2527332]I'm also suprised that it is a felony to steal a dog. Normally felony v misdemeanor is based on value of items stolen.QUOTE]

RHdobes563

Jun. 28, 2007, 03:05 PM

I'm also suprised that it is a felony to steal a dog. Normally felony v misdemeanor is based on value of items stolen.

I met an older couple who were starting competitive obedience with their dogs. They used to do field trials with Labrador Retrievers. The wife once turned down an offer of $50,000 for her Field Trial Champion---offered to her by the person who didn't want to come in second---AGAIN---to her dog.

Yup, "huntin'" dogs CAN be pretty pricey, sometimes.

Lori

Jun. 28, 2007, 03:38 PM

I knew I hated PETA, but I had NO idea that they killed animals. :(

Badger

Jun. 28, 2007, 04:10 PM

I knew I hated PETA, but I had NO idea that they killed animals. :(

I've never had any respect for PETA, and I thought they didn't run any shelters: I had no idea they were taking in animals and not trying to help them at all. I always knew they were using people's affectiong for their pets as a fundraising hook, and I knew about the horribly misplaced campaigns that set lab animals free, etc., but I really had no idea they were in the business of directly euthanising so many animals.

Bluey

Jun. 28, 2007, 05:20 PM

gkittredge

Jun. 28, 2007, 09:31 PM

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/pressRelease_detail.cfm?id=202

Sums it all up.

gkittredge

Jun. 28, 2007, 09:36 PM

Quoted from
http://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/oid/21

PETA is not an animal welfare organization.
PETA spends less than one percent of its multi-million dollar budget actually helping animals. The group euthanized (killed) more than 1,900 animals in 2003 alone -- that's over 85 percent of the animals it received. In fact, from July 1998 through the end of 2003, PETA killed over 10,000 dogs, cats, and other "companion animals" at its Norfolk, Virginia headquarters. That's more than five animals every day. On its 2002 federal income-tax return, PETA claimed a $9,370 expense for a giant walk-in freezer, the kind most people use as a meat locker or for ice-cream storage. But animal-rights activists don't eat meat or dairy foods. So far, the group hasn't confirmed the obvious -- that it's using the appliance to store the bodies of its victims.

dawglover

Jun. 29, 2007, 11:18 AM

Apparently their freezer must be getting full. Last year a group of them was caught disposing euthanized animal carcasses in a supermarket dumpster.

Quoted from
http://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/oid/21

PETA is not an animal welfare organization.
PETA spends less than one percent of its multi-million dollar budget actually helping animals. The group euthanized (killed) more than 1,900 animals in 2003 alone -- that's over 85 percent of the animals it received. In fact, from July 1998 through the end of 2003, PETA killed over 10,000 dogs, cats, and other "companion animals" at its Norfolk, Virginia headquarters. That's more than five animals every day. On its 2002 federal income-tax return, PETA claimed a $9,370 expense for a giant walk-in freezer, the kind most people use as a meat locker or for ice-cream storage. But animal-rights activists don't eat meat or dairy foods. So far, the group hasn't confirmed the obvious -- that it's using the appliance to store the bodies of its victims.

Calamber

Jun. 29, 2007, 01:50 PM

J Swan

Jun. 29, 2007, 02:19 PM

There are still in a bit of hot water over that. The employees were found guilty of littering - a very minor offense. In Virginia, if you surrender an animal to a shelter (PETA falls under that term though they do not operate a shelter), the shelter is not obligated to put the animal up for adoption - EVEN IF IT SAYS IT WILL.

The employees, over a span of time, would go from vet clinic to vet clinic, and gather animals that the vets had treated but had no home. The surrender was done with complete reliance upon the employees statements that they would find them new homes. Otherwise, the animals would NOT have been turned over to them.

The animals were dead before they left the parking lot. They were immediately euthanized - and the animals saw it. The van was full of crates.

Anyway - they said they dumped the carcasses because it was hot and it started to stink. But they were not convicted of obtaining property under false pretenses as alleged - because as a "shelter", they had no duty to find the animals homes.

The DEA recently conducted a search of the PETA offices, because it is illegal for PETA employees to have access to or handle euthanasia drugs. Yet in the trial, testimony revealed, under oath, that employees handle and administer euthanasia drugs all the time - and no vet is there to supervise. Not even a vet tech.

They'll get away with it, of course. They get away with things that, if they were Muslims, would get them sent to Gitmo. Guess PETA has better lawyers!!

Apparently their freezer must be getting full. Last year a group of them was caught disposing euthanized animal carcasses in a supermarket dumpster.

LexInVA

Jun. 29, 2007, 02:42 PM

Does the term "domestic terrorism" come to mind? Killing pet animals and throwing a violent demonstration over killing feral pigs? Does not make sense right? Psychological profiling of the population and anything to justify their cultural premise that "man is the most evil of all animals". My question is how does Ingrid Newkirk stay out of jail?

She stays out of jail because she does not act directly. There have been theories about the relationship between PETA and ALF and various files on her over the years opened by the FBI because the general belief in certain circles is that PETA and ALF are one and the same with PETA being their public face and the ALF being their arms and legs. PETA isn't the only big animal rights group in this country that engages in assisting the groups you would consider violent with money and resources but they are the one that is usually attracting attention because they make no apologies about it.

Badger

Jun. 29, 2007, 02:46 PM

The employees, over a span of time, would go from vet clinic to vet clinic, and gather animals that the vets had treated but had no home. The surrender was done with complete reliance upon the employees statements that they would find them new homes. Otherwise, the animals would NOT have been turned over to them.

The animals were dead before they left the parking lot. They were immediately euthanized - and the animals saw it. The van was full of crates.

What do they have to gain by doing this? Seems like it would be easier not to even mess with these animals and I don't see how it furthers their "cause" in any way. What is the motivation, and there must be some, or they wouldn't bother.

LexInVA

Jun. 29, 2007, 02:56 PM

What do they have to gain by doing this? Seems like it would be easier not to even mess with these animals and I don't see how it furthers their "cause" in any way. What is the motivation, and there must be some, or they wouldn't bother.

They have nothing to gain other than to rile up their more rabid members who believes that any means justifies the end so they will give all of their money and resources to PETA schemes. PETA is NEVER EVER held accountable for any of their actions and PETA also covers their legal expenses when they get caught.

CanadianGolden

Jun. 29, 2007, 03:20 PM

For anyone who doesn't know, HSUS is a cover for PETA. Google it--they are affiliated. The good organization is the ASPCA. I will not support HSUS and I strongly discourage anyone else from doing so.

LexInVA

Jun. 29, 2007, 03:35 PM

For anyone who doesn't know, HSUS is a cover for PETA. Google it--they are affiliated. The good organization is the ASPCA. I will not support HSUS and I strongly discourage anyone else from doing so.

Be careful. HSUS seems to have quite a bit of support from equestrians. Why that is, I will never understand as they are not involved in any actual "humane society" programs but they take in almost four times as much money as PETA does per year so the propaganda machine must be working well.

J Swan

Jun. 29, 2007, 05:04 PM

I guess they see it as some sort of public service. It's a high visibility thing in the VA/NC area they work in. You see the PETA van, and you think oh now nice - they are finding the animals homes.

I think what your looking at is the faces of the organization. One face for each demographic. The average PETA donor also donates to their local animal shelter, the majority of donors are women, and they have a LOT of high dollar donors, as well as foundations, charitable trusts, and other vehicles as a source of extremely large donations. They present a certain face to those donors - that of a more moderate, mainstream, animal loving organization.

To another demographic, that of the disaffected youth, they present a more militant face. This is the PETA of the ALF connection, the PETA that has convicted arsonists teaching college students how to build bombs, etc. The militant arm.

Then there is the institutional demographic. That which presents a certain face to places of learning. To those, they present themselves as humane educators, animal lovers, again, pretty mainstream. So they, as a charity, get into classrooms - starting in kindergarten, and offer "education".

This education is pretty benign - there are little things like making sure your dog has water and shelter. That's what they give to school boards as examples of their "humane education."

What makes it into the classroom is comic books called "Your Mommy Is A Murderer" - that one is for elementary school kids - it is a woman knifing a screaming rabbit.

There are coloring books with screaming cows - screaming because a farmer is going to give them a shot. Same type of thing with chicken - bloody knives, bloody chickens, screaming animals, etc.

Stickers are given out to children (young children) promoting a vegan diet.

It's the type of marketing that is very attractive to kids - cute animals, coloring books, stickers, etc. But all with the PETA message - Meat is Murder. Some stickers and comics encourage them to resist the authority of teachers and parents.

The whole educational stuff goes from kindergarten through college.

Oddly enough - this marketing to kids is something Big Tobacco got into a lot of trouble for!

Parents do get upset when their kids bring home the PETA materials - but too often the school has a humane education requirement - and the parents are powerless to stop the school from promoting the PETA message.

For folks with kids that attend schools that have such a requirement, you may want to ask that 4-H be the venue for such information. 4-H has a proven record of providing good education regarding animals, home life, and being a decent citizen.

If any of y'all want to double check me on this information - just Google it. It's absolutely crazy. I met with my state Senator and provided the PETA materials to him - and with his help - Virginia did not institute humane education last session. But the legislation will be up again in the next session.

This doesn't bode well for hunting. HSUS is taking the hunting issue state by state, and species by species. It's a very effective strategy, as it serves to divide sportsmen (for example, why should foxhunters be concerned about or pay attention to dove hunting in Michigan?), and since HSUS et al can outspend the entire sporting community - all they have to do is throw money at any issue until we are defeated.

As a segment of the population, hunters and anglers comprise a very small part of our citizenry - even though the money they give towards conservation and preservation of wildlife is far more than the average American - still we're depicted as destroyers of the natural world.

Strange but true. HSUS is now the largest animal rights group in the US. A lot of former PETA employees work there now. Many donors still think HSUS is the same thing as the local humane society, and PETA is a good group of animal lovers.

Many folks on this very BB are vociferous supporters of one or both groups. And I just don't get it. Eventers aren't safe either. Neither are endurance riders, dressage, or any western discipline. Beats me why they still give money.....

What do they have to gain by doing this? Seems like it would be easier not to even mess with these animals and I don't see how it furthers their "cause" in any way. What is the motivation, and there must be some, or they wouldn't bother.

Bluey

Jun. 29, 2007, 05:19 PM

---"Many folks on this very BB are vociferous supporters of one or both groups. And I just don't get it. Eventers aren't safe either. Neither are endurance riders, dressage, or any western discipline. Beats me why they still give money....."---

Maybe because of the way the horse slaughter issue was presented?;)

IveGotRhythm

Jun. 29, 2007, 06:45 PM

Guess PETA has better lawyers!!

Several years ago (before they outsourced the IT dept.) my husband worked for IAMS. He had to wade through PETA protesters on a regualar basis. Between that and the fact that I worked for our local (NOT affiliated with the HSUS) humane society which somehow recieved PETA propaganda-I mean newsletters- I learned an awful lot about PETA.

Although it's been too long for me to recall the actual numbers, what I remember learning the most was this : PETA is about making money, period. Those protesters my husband had to wade through were flown in, put up in hotels, and PAID to break laws and get arrested to ensure that they made the papers-- PUBLICITY. There were lawyers waiting in those paid hotels to1) post bond, 2)defend protesters, and 3) KEEPS THEIR NAME IN THE PAPERS. After all, there is always a chance that someone doesn't bother to read the whole story and is shocked enough by what PETA ALLEGES that IAMS is doing (in this particular case they had contracted a food testing firm that did not follow IAMS regulations and had already been terminated) to make a big fat donation.

The other thing (and these are the exact numbers that I can't remember) was that what PETA spent yearly on legal fees could, if spent on spay/neuter clinics, wipe out our national dog/cat overpopulation problem.

And that's just the money from legal fees. What could the money they spend on publicity do for horses?!?!?

citydog

Jun. 29, 2007, 06:46 PM

Strange but true. HSUS is now the largest animal rights group in the US. A lot of former PETA employees work there now. Many donors still think HSUS is the same thing as the local humane society, and PETA is a good group of animal lovers.

Many folks on this very BB are vociferous supporters of one or both groups. And I just don't get it. Eventers aren't safe either. Neither are endurance riders, dressage, or any western discipline. Beats me why they still give money.....

Or submit photos... http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=104019

Bluey

Jun. 29, 2007, 07:33 PM

---"Or submit photos... http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...d.php?t=104019"---

Does that read that the COTH moderator Erin is writing a book on horse care for the HSUS?:eek: :eek: :eek:

I am not sure I understand that, since the HSUS doesn't generally has anything like that.
Where would they sell it?:confused: :confused: :confused:

Guess that the PR firm they hire now is more creative than the old one used to be.
With last time they rendered taxes, in 2004, declaring donations of 119.9 millions, I guess that they can pay to publish what they want.;)

citydog

Jun. 29, 2007, 07:53 PM

Does that read that the COTH moderator Erin is writing a book on horse care for the HSUS?:eek: :eek: :eek:

It appears so.

I am not sure I understand that, since the HSUS doesn't generally has anything like that.
Where would they sell it?:confused: :confused: :confused:

Au contraire. (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/103-7414724-4052649?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=humane+society+united+states&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go) At every major bookstore. :no:

gkittredge

Jun. 29, 2007, 08:22 PM

The Humane Society of the United States Euthanasia Training Manual by Rebecca H. Rhoades (Spiral-bound - Sep 1, 2002)
Buy new: $19.95 6 Used & new from $17.25
Get it by Tuesday, Jul 3, if you order in the next 68 hours and 55 minutes.
Eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping.

Straight from Amazon.

I wonder if the HSUS uses the PETA vans?

Good to know anyone can get training on the use of the blue juice. I will sleep better at night.

CanadianGolden

Jun. 29, 2007, 08:26 PM

Thanks guys. Spread the word about HSUS. I mentioned it on UDBB (can we not say that acronym?) and they literally said "bullshit". Heads in the sand...

J Swan

Jun. 29, 2007, 09:22 PM

When the PETA employees in the dumpster fiasco were arrested - there were HSUS manuals in the back of the van.

I know we all have to make a living, and I hold no personal animosity towards Erin. But I'm disappointed. Very disappointed. And I'm very disappointed that she's posting on COTH for photos - a publication devoted to the very horse sports HSUS would like to see banned.

Canadian Golden - I'm not surprised. Even my rabidly AR oriented mom refused to believe anything I said about HSUS until she saw for herself during Katrina.

The Humane Society of the United States Euthanasia Training Manual by Rebecca H. Rhoades (Spiral-bound - Sep 1, 2002)
Buy new: $19.95 6 Used & new from $17.25
Get it by Tuesday, Jul 3, if you order in the next 68 hours and 55 minutes.
Eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping.

Straight from Amazon.

I wonder if the HSUS uses the PETA vans?

Good to know anyone can get training on the use of the blue juice. I will sleep better at night.

glitterless

Jun. 30, 2007, 05:20 AM

I didn't realize that HSUS and PETA were affiliated. Scary.

I know that we're talking apples and oranges here, but what about the SPCAs in Canada, specifically the OSPCA (Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals)? I know that my local Humane Society is part of the OSPCA. Does this mean that the OSPCA (who, IMO are not much better than PETA) and HS are affiliated with PETA? Anyone have any idea?

Just curious. I don't support any of these groups, but my local HS is the only form of animal control in my area. We've had to call them on occasion, but if they're affiliated with PETA I would much rather deal with things on my own.

CanadianGolden

Jun. 30, 2007, 05:46 AM

I think if it's an SPCA, you're okay. The problem is specifically the group "HSUS". Some of the shelters in the US are called Humane Societies, but I don't think that necessarily means they are under HSUS.

YankeeLawyer

Jun. 30, 2007, 06:09 AM

I haven't read the other replies, but based on that newsclip they are going to have a hard time prosecuting a felony on those facts, as they are not going to have enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt this woman had the requisite intent to steal this dog.

Dogs should NOT ever be roaming around off the leash and off the owners' property (which BTW IS against the law in the State of Virginia). They can get hit by cars and/or cause car accidents as people swerve to avoid them, bite children/joggers, attack other people's animals, etc. I love dogs but it is orresponsible to let them stray, and if that happens inadvertently I don't think people should be anything but grateful that someone found them and picked them up to return them.

Now, if in fact this woman had no intent to return this dog, that clearly had an owner, that is a problem, to say the least.

J Swan

Jun. 30, 2007, 06:31 AM

YankeeLawyer - you should read my posts for the full story. This is about hunting dogs - not pets.

You are incorrect about the leash law requirement in Virginia. These are hunting dogs - hunting dogs are exempt from at large and leash laws - when they are hunting. This collar removed was a tracking collar - and the hound was otherwise identified. The tracking collar would have permitted the owner to locate the dog.

Not only that - this disappearance was one among a pattern of disappearances of hunting dogs- in which collars were found on the side of the road, and in bodies of water.

I too doubt that the PETA employee will be found guilty. They have very very very good lawyers.

As far as Katrina - you can search on this BB for the posts - but HSUS was begging for money for crates on their website - and employees were throwing brand new crates into dumpsters and refusing to give them to rescues. The AG in LA is investigating HSUS's fundraising regarding Katrina.

My mother's rescue was among those that HSUS not only refused - but they saw with their own eyes HSUS incompetence.

I haven't read the other replies, but based on that newsclip they are going to have a hard time prosecuting a felony on those facts, as they are not going to have enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt this woman had the requisite intent to steal this dog.

Dogs should NOT ever be roaming around off the leash and off the owners' property (which BTW IS against the law in the State of Virginia). They can get hit by cars and/or cause car accidents as people swerve to avoid them, bite children/joggers, attack other people's animals, etc. I love dogs but it is orresponsible to let them stray, and if that happens inadvertently I don't think people should be anything but grateful that someone found them and picked them up to return them.

Now, if in fact this woman had no intent to return this dog, that clearly had an owner, that is a problem, to say the least.

Huntertwo

Jun. 30, 2007, 09:17 AM

For example, they have been known to monitor shelters with no-kill policies to see if they are in need of workers and they will send a member who is trained in euthanasia to work there and kill animals on the sly.

Do you really know this for a fact? And what is your source?

Or any of the statistics posted by others? Where is your source for all this information and the numbers of animals destroyed by PETA?

And personally a pet dog or any dogs (hunting) should not be allowed to roam at night. To do what? Run down and kill wild animals? Harass and kill livestock or pets?

Did anyone actually witness her taking off the hunting collar or is this a hysterical Witch hunt?

As far as the HSUS being affiliated with PETA - Wouldn't they also be against people having pets? If so, why did they ask for information on Horse care?

I don't donate to PETA, but have learned a lot what goes on behind the scenes from their web site.
They are the group who video taped the workers at the KFC factory kicking around live chickens for kicks, and the abuse that goes on behind the scenes at circuses.
And much much more.

And if a Moderator wants to help gather information for the HSUS, I don't think she needs J Swans "Go ahead" to do so. Get over yourself already.

Equibrit

Jun. 30, 2007, 09:53 AM

I might be a bit dim here - but - what is PETA/HSUS's motivation/justification for killing animals?

Lori

Jun. 30, 2007, 12:15 PM

Dogs should NOT ever be roaming around off the leash and off the owners' property (which BTW IS against the law in the State of Virginia).

Leash laws are local NOT statewide in VA. I know this for a fact because Rappahannock County has no leash law. It is considered rural. Hunting dogs are exempt from leash laws in most areas, too.
The county refers to the state law if there is a problem, of deeming an animal dangerous or destructive. That is what they had to do when I had a problem a few years back with an ex neighbors nasty dogs.

cholmberg

Jun. 30, 2007, 12:48 PM

I might be a bit dim here - but - what is PETA/HSUS's motivation/justification for killing animals?

Because of their beliefs. Peta mostly. They do not believe animals should be 'subservient' to humans, that they have the same rights as you. Peta kills animals because according to their beliefs and principles the animals are better off dead than being pets. For them animals should be appreciated from a distance and only in their wild state. Keeping them in captivity, no matter how well taken care of is cruelty, much less eating them.
Direct from their website:

"People who support animal rights believe that animals are not ours to use for food, clothing, entertainment, experimentation, or any other purpose and that animals deserve consideration of their best interests regardless of whether they are cute, useful to humans, or endangered and regardless of whether any human cares about them at all."

and even better:

"As PETA founder Ingrid Newkirk has said, “When it comes to pain, love, joy, loneliness, and fear, a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy. Each one values his or her life and fights the knife.”

Equibrit

Jun. 30, 2007, 02:26 PM

http://www.nokillnow.com/PETAIngridNewkirkResign.htm

What a nasty piece of work! One would assume that if animals have the same rights as humans then she condones the killing of people also?

J Swan

Jun. 30, 2007, 03:57 PM

Uh Huntertwo - I don't need to "get over myself". Erin can do whatever the heck she wants to do - and I'm free to disapprove. And you're free to disapprove of my disapproval.

If you had read the posts for content, you'd know that some hunters hunt at NIGHT. It's called - oddly enough - NIGHT hunting. Get it?

So yes, there is a perfectly legal, ethical and appropriate reason for hunting dogs to be out at night, to come home in the morning hours. If they don't for some reason - some folks put tracking collars on the hounds - so they can locate them.

Ever thought that's because they are responsible hunters?

I'm not quite sure why you're posting here - if you are opposed to hunting with dogs, that makes sense, I guess - though I'd think you'd actually want to read up on the subject so you'd be able to discuss the matter intelligently.

Oh by the way - these hunting dogs don't chase livestock. If they did - a landowner would be perfectly within his rights to shoot the hound. The hound owner knows that, and won't keep a hound that chases livestock.

Hunting with dogs is a legal activity conducted in rural areas that has gone on for hundreds of years. Nowadays hunters can take advantage of technology to ensure they can find a tardy or errant hound. No one has the right to detain that hound and remove the only means the owner has of finding it.

Not you, not me, and not PETA.

Whether or not the state can prove the employees intended to abscond with the hound; I don't know. Perhaps the discarded collar was properly preserved as evidence, and the PETA employees fingerprints were found on the collar. I guess we'll find out.

It's nice that you think PETA is great for their videotapes - too bad they didn't videotape killing all the kittens and puppies and dogs and cats in the back of their van that hot day. How do you feel about PETA knowing that they told folks they would find homes for pets and then killing them right in front of each other and dumping the bodies in a shopping center dumpster? I guess you'll chalk it up to another "witch hunt"?

Puhleeze. I've seen PETA in action. There is nothing ethical about them.

CanadianGolden

Jun. 30, 2007, 04:08 PM

As far as the HSUS being affiliated with PETA - Wouldn't they also be against people having pets? If so, why did they ask for information on Horse care?

HSUS is a *cover* for PETA. They may do things that appear to be consistent with being a real shelter organization, but they are just as insane. The new legislation (spaying and neutering early, requiring animals to be licensed) is just the start of them slowly controlling dog ownership until they ban it entirely. Hopefully that won't happen.

Here is just one site that mention's PETA/HSUS affiliation
http://www.arbreptiles.com/extremists.shtml

And here is a link to the google search.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=Fe4&q=HSUS+PETA&btnG=Search

Blueshadow

Jun. 30, 2007, 04:19 PM

Sorry guys, but NOTHING in these links demonstrates AFFILIATION of PETA and HSUS, or that HSUS is a "cover" for PETA. Show me THAT, show me evidence of AFFILIATION.

Huntertwo

Jun. 30, 2007, 04:27 PM

CanadianGolden

Jun. 30, 2007, 04:38 PM

Um, hello, I answered your question already. They are a COVER (in caps since you missed it the first time). They might do things consistent with being a legit organization, such as asking for information on horse care but they are slowly working to ban ownership. About, let's see, 224,000 sites seem to agree with the first site. I didn't look through all of them, but I bet that if I reviewed HSUS's records, I'd find some agreement.

Blueshadow

Jun. 30, 2007, 04:41 PM

I think you need to define a "COVER".

J Swan

Jun. 30, 2007, 04:45 PM

I haven't asserted that.

I think there may be the perception of true affiliation because of employees to go from nonprofit to nonprofit.

For example, a person interested in animal rights careers might start out at PETA, then look for a job at HSUS or vice versa.

I worked in environmental nonprofits - and this was pretty common. Actually - it was pretty common for fundraisers to go from nonprofit to nonprofit as well - they weren't usually so focused on staying within a particular type of nonprofit.

So perhaps there is the perception of affiliation because so many PETA employees have gone on to better paying and higher profile careers at HSUS.

That's just a guess based on my own experience in philanthropy. It's also common for nonprofits that share common interests to work together on certain projects, share information, have board members in common, have high dollar donors in common - so in that sense there may be an "affiliation" but an informal one. The big nonprofits become a bit homogenized - employees go back and forth - there is a lot of overlap in mission, donors, and interest. They'll even strategize on high profile issues.

Hope that helps. I know that PETA and PCRM are truly connected - but I'd hesitate to say that PETA and HSUS have any formal affiliation. Of course- since HSUS is merging with so many other animal rights groups - perhaps PETA will one day become part of HSUS. Anything is possible.

edited to add - HSUS puts out a lot of books because they make money on them. It doesn't matter if they want eventing or hunting banned or not - because if they can make money on selling a book on horse care - they'll do it. It's just a good business decision.

Sorry guys, but NOTHING in these links demonstrates AFFILIATION of PETA and HSUS, or that HSUS is a "cover" for PETA. Show me THAT, show me evidence of AFFILIATION.

CanadianGolden

Jun. 30, 2007, 04:51 PM

Blueshadow

Jun. 30, 2007, 04:53 PM

JSwan, that is exactly my reading of the link posted, thanks.

And I did notice that the "switch" employees cited moved from PETA to HSUS. Of course, one could infer infiltration of HSUS by more extreme members. Or, one could infer that those employees now desired employment in a less extreme organization. Or one could infer that they wanted to earn more money...

Anyway, I WILL be curious to see how long the HSUS can maintain its opposition to legitimate sports, and its promotion of veganism, while sustaining its mainstream base. I see Microsoft came under substantial pressure to cease its support of HSUS due to the HSUS's increasingly anti-hunting stance...

J Swan

Jun. 30, 2007, 05:06 PM

Having worked at nonprofits - I can say that they probably just wanted more money and better benefits. Hey - we all have to make a living, right?

I hope that HSUS will return to a more mainstream organization; one that I can resume supporting. But with new leadership comes change; and the changes at HSUS are disturbing. There is no difference between PETA and HSUS except HSUS has more money.

Sorry to drift from the original topic - but frankly I'm surprised that horse owners aren't more cognizant of what these groups are trying to accomplish. Perhaps it's that they think dressage is safe, or trail riding is safe (insert name of sport they're not focusing on) so they don't care?

Dunno. But in the case of the PETA employee - that person wasn't a Good Samaritan picking up a stray dog. That was an intentional act - and I hope the Court arrives at the same conclusion. We'll see.

rcloisonne

Jun. 30, 2007, 05:08 PM

HSUS is a *cover* for PETA. They may do things that appear to be consistent with being a real shelter organization, but they are just as insane. The new legislation (spaying and neutering early, requiring animals to be licensed) is just the start of them slowly controlling dog ownership until they ban it entirely. Hopefully that won't happen.
And just how/why are early spay/neuter programs insane? It ain't the PETA and HSUS folk breeding gazillions of unwanted animals every year. Those are coming from irresponsible owners.

In my state, a law was past last year making it illegal to own a fertile feline. Breeders are required to apply for a breeder's licence which entitles the state to inspect their premises to ensure the animals are being properly cared for and to eliminate/reduce those horrible "collector" stories. What's wrong with that? Dogs are already required to be licenced and vaccinated for rabies.

Shelters are over run and untold numbers of animals are being euthanized everyday because there's not enough room or adoptive homes. And why is it the tax payers' responsibility to pay for it anyway? The "stay the course" mentality, with everyone doing as they please (including dropping off multiple unwanted litters at the pound regularly), clearly ain't working. But let's demonize PETA/HSUS for coming up with a solution. :rolleyes:

J Swan

Jun. 30, 2007, 05:33 PM

I don't think anyone believes that it is ok to abuse or maltreat animals. I'm not demonizing PETA or HSUS - they do that quite well all by themselves.

And since neither operate any shelters or spay neuter programs - PETA even blocked efforts to start spay/neuter programs in the Virginia Beach area - I hardly think they are worthy of praise.

I don't think it's ok for people to shove their philosophies down my throat. If I want to foxhunt, who are you to say I can't? I'm perfectly capable of taking care of hounds and horses, and be a good sportsman, without HSUS or PETA hovering over me. If I want to event - who are you to tell me I can't? Who died and left you in charge? Or HSUS? Or PETA? We've been able to govern ourselves without being subjected to their tender mercies.

If I want to eat meat - who are you or HSUS or PETA to tell me I can't?

The problem with those groups is that they want to be in charge. They want to make my ethical choices for me - and if I don't like it - they'll sue or break my windows or threaten me.

No thanks - I trust you to take care of your animals responsibly and ethically - and if you don't - there is a mechanism within our judicial system to address your transgressions. I ask the same of you.

Any organization that espouses the principle "gone in one generation" - means - no pets.

Blueshadow

Jun. 30, 2007, 05:54 PM

I am a frustrated, but partially continuing supporter of HSUS. (Not of PETA. I'm opposed to terrorism.) I agree with some of their stances (really, policies). I disagree with others. I can't see how they can sustain the mainstream support that they still do have with the changes that have been made, especially those in the last 5 years. I actively support those stances that I can - writing to my representatives, etc. I also write to, and post blogs on the website of, HSUS, regarding aspects of legislation that they support, and which I am concerned about. They have never published or acknowledged a single one! To be published there, you either need to be an out and out supporter, or a complete anti animal welfare maniac... that is my conclusion.

We're off topic, sorry. I have a funny story about Wayne Pacelle, but I'll save it for a more appropriate thread...

I'm hoping for a conviction in this case.

J Swan

Jun. 30, 2007, 06:14 PM

Blueshadow - I understand what you are saying. It is indeed, frustrating.

I'll hope for a conviction too - and also hope that HSUS goes back to what it used to be.

Bluey

Jun. 30, 2007, 06:25 PM

I have posted links to an article or two with facts of how HSUS and PETA are connected and what their ultimate goals are.

Every time people here won't acknowledge the facts in the articles, but go on the attack about where the articles come from and that of course they then are wrong.

Well, sorry, they are not wrong, just those FOR those groups don't like to hear the truths.

Don't let the emotions those animal rights activists are so good at raising in you with their rethoric and wild stories cloud your judgement.
Read them for content and then, with what you already know, come to your own conclusions.

The bottom line is that by supporting those kinds of animal right activists at all today, if they are successful, we may not have any horses, or any other animals, to care for in the future.

Once you have BOTH sides of these stories, then you may choose well, now informed, not inflamed:

http://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/oid/136

http://www.consumerfreedom.com/news_detail.cfm/headline/2088

glitterless

Jun. 30, 2007, 11:25 PM

They are the group who video taped the workers at the KFC factory kicking around live chickens for kicks,

Sorry, I've gotta stop you right there. What exactly is a KFC factory? What is YOUR source? KFC buys their chicken from a variety of suppliers. I know that my local KFC buys their chicken from Maple Lodge Farms. Much of the chicken that we buy in our grocery stores come from the same places that supply KFC. I am not aware of KFC's chicken factories. They FRY chicken, they don't raise and slaughter them!

CarrieK

Jul. 1, 2007, 07:36 AM

You know, we raised chickens when I was a kid. I whacked them with the bamboo rake when they came after me. I'm sure I kicked a few in my time.
I guess I'm gonna rot...

Sorry for straying from the topic, but my conscience--oh, who'm I kidding? Conscience, schmonscience! I hate chickens and I'm sure I'd kick at one out of pure spite and meanness for all those dew claws that scratched me up.

Teach

Jul. 1, 2007, 10:11 AM

Oh by the way - these hunting dogs don't chase livestock. If they did - a landowner would be perfectly within his rights to shoot the hound. The hound owner knows that, and won't keep a hound that chases livestock.

I will say that in my experience, this is true of responsible hunters. I can distinctly remember (from when I was only about 6-7 years old) a situation where my pony was chased & being "run" in his turnout by a pair of hunting dogs. We called the guy we thought was the owner (lived up the street), but they turned out not to be his. He not only came out to our place in the dark to catch & remove someone else's hounds (with the intention of tracking back the owner & giving him hell about the situation), but informed my parents that if we ever had his hounds at our place, we could just shoot 'em, or he would come do it for us--he didn't want to any part of a hound that would run stock. It always struck me as being very responsible (in a slightly crude way, I guess) that he was perpared to do that if he needed to, instead of allowing his dogs to continue to be a major problem & scourge of the countryside while protesting "Oh, my darlings wouldn't do that!" (I'm looking at you, chicken-rabbit-&-baby-lamb-killing trio of housepets from the new development. Oh, wait--no I'm not, because after (actually, during) the 2nd lamb attack, we employed the 3 S's ourselves!)

I will also say that we have several friends who are fairly high up in Farm Bureau, & the FB not only will tell you all about the connections between HSUS & PETA, but actively discussed it at their last nat. meeting & are working to counter their influence.

gkittredge

Jul. 1, 2007, 07:22 PM

Whoa Teach,

I don’t know what state you are in, but in New Hampshire and Vermont, landowners are NOT allowed to shoot any dog chasing livestock. The only person who can legally dispatch an animal for such an infraction is the Game Warden. Furthermore should a landowner choose to take the law into their own hands and raise a gun, the owner of said dog is perfectly within their right to sue the landowner.

I know this may sound wrong, but there is a common misconception that a landowner can kill a dog chasing livestock. The landowner may call the Game Warden, but MAY NOT shoot the dog.

Should you require, I am happy to provide you the statutes. They are also is the VT and NH hunting rules and regulations.

J Swan

Jul. 1, 2007, 08:32 PM

Why on earth is there such a law? How odd!

Lordy - if a dog was running my livestock and they were about to go through a fence into a road - I'm getting my rifle - not waiting for hours for a Game Warden to show up. The Game Warden isn't going to help me pay the vet bills or judgment against me when my livestock kills some motorist.

I'm glad I live in Virginia!!

NRB

Jul. 1, 2007, 08:58 PM

Whoa Teach,
I don’t know what state you are in, but in New Hampshire and Vermont, landowners are NOT allowed to shoot any dog chasing livestock. .

Well here in Va a landowner is allowed to shoot any dog chasing thieir livestock. I found this in the Va state Code, website is:http://leg1.state.va.us/000/src.htm in case anyone else would like to research Va law. 2nd sentance, "any person"

§ 3.1-796.116. Dogs killing, injuring or chasing livestock or poultry.

It shall be the duty of any animal control officer or other officer who may find a dog in the act of killing or injuring livestock or poultry to kill such dog forthwith whether such dog bears a tag or not. Any person finding a dog committing any of the depredations mentioned in this section shall have the right to kill such dog on sight as shall any owner of livestock or his agent finding a dog chasing livestock on land utilized by the livestock when the circumstances show that such chasing is harmful to the livestock. Any court shall have the power to order the animal control officer or other officer to kill any dog known to be a confirmed livestock or poultry killer, and any dog killing poultry for the third time shall be considered a confirmed poultry killer. The court, through its contempt powers, may compel the owner, custodian, or harborer of the dog to produce the dog.

Any animal control officer who has reason to believe that any dog is killing livestock or poultry shall be empowered to seize such dog solely for the purpose of examining such dog in order to determine whether it committed any of the depredations mentioned herein. Any animal control officer or other person who has reason to believe that any dog is killing livestock, or committing any of the depredations mentioned in this section, shall apply to a magistrate of the county, city or town wherein such dog may be, who shall issue a warrant requiring the owner or custodian, if known, to appear before a general district court at a time and place named therein, at which time evidence shall be heard. If it shall appear that the dog is a livestock killer, or has committed any of the depredations mentioned in this section, the district court shall order that the dog be (i) killed immediately by the animal control officer or other officer designated by the court or (ii) removed to another state which does not border on the Commonwealth and prohibited from returning to the Commonwealth. Any dog ordered removed from the Commonwealth which is later found in the Commonwealth shall be ordered by a court to be killed immediately.

(1984, c. 492, § 29-213.85; 1985, c. 385; 1987, c. 488; 1990, c. 222; 1993, c. 977; 1998, c. 817.)

glitterless

Jul. 1, 2007, 10:54 PM

gkittredge, do you actually WAIT for the authorities to catch or destroy a dog that's endangering your livestock? As a livestock owner, I believe that you have the right to protect your animals. I would challenge any such law. Your animals could be dead or injured by the time the warden showed up; unless he's your next door neighbour.

yellow-horse

Jul. 2, 2007, 11:03 AM

well i'll repeat what i said earlier, you can ususally tell when a dog is hunting, i don't mind them at all, they are just passing through, they sometimes pass through my pasture or in front of my kennels but they keep going, they are not easily distracted from what they are intent on doing, which is continuing the hunt, however i'd quess at least about once a month there are a couple of dogs that just make a nuisence of themselves, running around in the pasture, standing at the kennel barking at my hounds, i've never shot one, it would take a whole lot of nuisence for me to shoot a dog, but i have called a/c or the owner if i can coax it over to me, and then i stick it in the little temp kennel so it stops running around
i'll tellyou the most damage done here by a stray animal was a farm pig that got loose when the guy down the raod was trying to load some livestock to take to market, terrorized my horses and goats ran down my fence to get in the pasture then ran downt he fence again to get out of the pasture, that animal i would have shot

NRB

Jul. 2, 2007, 11:51 AM

Veering back to the topic at hand...sort of......We have had several hunting dogs loose on the property where I board my horse. None of them have ever been a nusience. They never once bothered the horses. Their owner came as soon as we called them to pick up the dog. On several occasions we have had a neighboors pet dog chase the horses, biting at their feet and hocks. I myself had to pull the dog out of the paddock; he kept lunging after my horse as I was hauling him off, he was clueless to my presence as he was just having too much fun chasing the horses. That dog is a potential danger, should he ever bite a horse or chase one through a fence. To be clear that dog is NOT a hunting dog, not a hunting breed of dog. He's just a pet who needs to be contained.

summerhorse

Jul. 2, 2007, 01:19 PM

Here's an example. Both groups have stated the same goal. While I agree that it does not demonstrate affiliation, it does demonstrate that HSUS is just as dangeous to animal owners as PETA is.

http://saveourdogs.net/animalrights.html

Here are some quotes from leaders/affiliates of animal rights groups. They sound pretty scary to me. http://www.naiaonline.org/articles/archives/animalrightsquote.htm

I love this one:

"In a perfect world, we would not keep animals for our benefit, including pets," Tom Regan, emeritus professor of philosophy at North Carolina State University and author of "Empty Cages" - speaking at University of Wisconsin-Madison campus, March 3, 2004

OK, I'm the one who has to get up and go to work every day even with a disability I could be sitting home for, I'm the one who drives ancient cars, lives in an ancient tiny house, wears clothes to rags, have 5 pairs of shoes, eat cheap frozen dinner while the cats have science diet, and have no money left after paying all of their vet bills.

now WHO is benefitting? I'd say it was at least mutual!!!

rcloisonne

Jul. 2, 2007, 02:17 PM

I love this one:

"In a perfect world, we would not keep animals for our benefit, including pets," Tom Regan, emeritus professor of philosophy at North Carolina State University and author of "Empty Cages" - speaking at University of Wisconsin-Madison campus, March 3, 2004

OK, I'm the one who has to get up and go to work every day even with a disability I could be sitting home for, I'm the one who drives ancient cars, lives in an ancient tiny house, wears clothes to rags, have 5 pairs of shoes, eat cheap frozen dinner while the cats have science diet, and have no money left after paying all of their vet bills.

now WHO is benefitting? I'd say it was at least mutual!!!
If everyone where like you, there would be no need for PETA/HSUS/SPCA. Sadly, this is not the case. Far to many people are users - of each other and other animals. Take a look at the thread on what is considered an acceptable fate for hunting dogs past their prime. Just "shoot 'em" is the consensus. This, after years of loyal service to their "masters". :no:

Personally, I agree with Dr. Regan. We, as a species, are not smart enough, moral enough, nor ethical enough to lord over every sentient species we find "useful" on this planet.

Trakehner

Jul. 2, 2007, 02:29 PM

"If everyone where like you, there would be no need for PETA/HSUS/SPCA."

There is no valid use or need of Peta or Hsus...both support animal terrorism, forget that people's lives are more important than animals lives (a la' Newkirk's "a rat is a dog is a boy")...so screwed up they call people who care about kids more than a rat "specists".

Sorry, stupid and some fairly screwed up minds and belief systems answering the calls of "cute puppy" and "cute kitty" in the propoganda ads for a terror group.

Neither Peta or Hsus care about animals..they care about raising money...neither group rescues animals or provides shelter...peta kills em for money and the hsus raises money from the non-thinking "feelers" out there.

xeroxchick

Jul. 2, 2007, 02:38 PM

Personally, I agree with Dr. Regan. We, as a species, are not smart enough, moral enough, nor ethical enough to lord over every sentient species we find "useful" on this planet.

The question beggs to be asked: Why on earth are you participationg on a forum for horse sports? If you do agre with Dr. Regan, you would have nothing to do with activities or discussions about horse ownership, care or riding. I smell a troll. A PETA troll.

J Swan

Jul. 2, 2007, 05:43 PM

Caring for an animals welfare was not a concept discovered by HSUS or PETA - though they would have you believe otherwise.

As far as shooting an old hound - exactly what on earth is wrong with it? I'll tell you what people don't like about it - it's an emotional reaction - not based on any facts at all.

Most folks put an old hound down with a needle these days anyway - if the hound knows the vet and the vet will come out to the kennel - it's not too stressful.

It makes YOU feel better to take your dog to the vet to be put down. Your pet may have gone to the vet for years - several times a year - so though it's stressful, going bye bye in the car with their momma and getting petted by lot of people is still a lot of fun for the little guy. His world is one of lots of humans petting him, tossing toys, lots of being inside with noise and lights and tv's, going in the car, etc.

That is not the life of a foxhound. A foxhounds life is defined by the pack. He/She is part of a pack - and to be separated from that pack for any reason is something to be feared and dreaded. The hound is cared for by just a few people - who care for him or her very well. Those people, the huntsman in particular are the only people to really be trusted by the hound. If the hound is injured or ill, the person who does most, if not all the care - is the huntsman or a whip - the vet is used only if very necessary. The hound looks to the huntsman for guidance, for approval, and to the pack for everything else.

The hound is always with the pack. They sleep together, eat together, care for each other, fight, console each other, clean each others scrapes, protect each other - their existence is completely defined by the pack. Never ever would they want to leave it - they don't want to be touched by strangers, they only trust a few people. They are incredible animals.

And you are telling me that it is cruel for a huntsman or other trusted person to take an old hound on a little walk and put it down where it feels safe and comfortable and loved? Non vets are not permitted to handle euthanasia drugs.

It is better to tear that hound away from the pack, bring it to an office full of bright lights, funny smells, people they don't know, and have a stranger stick it with a needle? Exactly what is humane about that - from the HOUNDS perspective?

The important thing is what is best for the HOUND - not a human's delicate sensibilities. Whatever is best for the hound should be done. And I'd rather a hound go for a short walk with a trusted human than go through the stress of a vet's office.

If you agree with Dr. Regan - exactly why do you own a horse and participate on this BB? Are you somehow the only person moral enough to own a horse?

And which set of morals are you following? Because morals also depend on cultural, philosophical and religious background and beliefs. Or are you going to say that your set of morals are also better than everyone elses?

Bah - give me a break. If you're a supporter of PETA or HSUS - and you own livestock or pets - you're a hypocrite.

gkittredge

Jul. 2, 2007, 10:01 PM

Gang,

I understand your points. If a dog is actively taking down your livestock you will want to respond with force. I get it. If I saw a dog with its jaws around the neck of my horse or one of my hounds, you bet I would most likely respond with force. But what I am talking about is a different and perhaps I did not elaborate closely enough.

Most PETA folk and other “tree-huggers” will see a hound traipsing through a pasture or in the woods and automatically think “hey it is chasing livestock, deer or another furry woodland creature. – where is my gun?” In this instance you do not have the right to shoot the dog. All too often I take the hounds through the woods only to come upon some yahoo with a rifle in one hand and a Budweiser in the other. These people scare me. I will also be the first to admit that there has been an occasion where my hounds have chased (NOT KILLED) a deer. It takes some time to pull them off of it. Here in VT and NH you cannot hunt a deer with a hound. For some reason deer are fiercely protected up here. I know you can hunt deer with hounds in other states, but not New England. So if the hunter out there watched my hound accidently chase a deer he/she may think it is their right to dispatch my hound. It is not.

If my dog took down a lamb or a calf I would be hard pressed to argue with someone wanting to protect their livestock. It is still illegal, but I can see the point. I just worry about who has the right to make that decision. What defines chasing livestock? Being in the same pasture is not chasing, but to some it may be. I worry about the lack of explicit detail in the law. I hate to see a hound get shot because someone had a vague interpretation of the law.

I remember a story fifteen years ago that a PETA type group went to a kennel in Canada and killed the entire pack of hounds because they were hunting hounds. I guess the logic was kill the hounds that kill the woodland creatures. Not sure if I understand the logic, but then again I am not a terrorist. I just don’t like a law that could legitimize anyone dispatching a dog because they *think* it is chasing livestock.

As for waiting for a Game Warden – yea, right. Let me get that passed through Congress first.

Sorry for straying off-topic.

cholmberg

Jul. 2, 2007, 11:25 PM

I think the law is pretty explicit, for MS it says: "The owner, or the immediate family, employee or agent of the owner, of any poultry or livestock, including cattle, horses, mules, jacks, jennets, sheep, goats and hogs, may kill any dog in the act of chasing or killing any such poultry or livestock, and any such person shall not be liable therefor to the owner of the dog."

It says -in the act of chasing or killing-. I've never seen or heard of anyone getting trigger happy and killing a dog that wasn't being a nusiance. I wouldn't kill a dog just for showing up on my property. . although if it's tearing stuff up or trying to get into the garbage or posturing at me. . .I will do something the dog finds unpleasant but isn't really harmful to discourage it from coming back. If it persists and I can catch it. . off to the pound it goes. If it threatens my children, it's chances get a lot slimmer. I don't deal with owners. All it does is create conflict, if the dog is persistently running at large, the owner knows it and doesn't care or even thinks it's their God Given Right to allow their dog to roam loose. I think the three S's is a good policy. And I've not seen a well trained hunting dog run livestock, although I did have a serious problem with a neighbor and their totally untrained 'coon' dogs that chased everything on my place (except raccoons) and attacked my dog/niece while they were walking (leashed) on my land. That was a very ugly confrontation, the same people's bassett had dug into my chicken coop and killed twelve of fifteen pullets before I caught her. I locked her in my garage and told him he'd have to pay for those chickens before he'd get that dog back. He denied his dog did it, said the birds must have 'run off' since he couldn't deny the dog was in the henhouse, she'd dug in, but could not get back out (I guess the chickens used the transporter to 'run off' out of the fenced chicken yard). Yeah. I picked up a basket and went out and filled it with little legs and wings and knocked on his door and presented it too him. He wrote me a check and I gave him his dog back. I wouldn't have killed her, even though I would have been within my rights to do so, but I was plenty angry, and didn't think I was asking too much for him to pay for what his dog had killed. But it caused very bad neighborly relations.

I think there is FAR more danger of stupid, clueless dog owners who let Fido run loose than there is of trigger happy livestock owners killing hunting dogs that are doing 'nothing'. As soon as a dog draws a bead on one of my animals and starts loping or running towards them, that is -chasing-. Frankly I worry more about the idiot hunters who shoot first, see what it was later. ...killing all manner of creatures including horses, cows, goats, dogs and people. We can't get through a season without someone on the coast having their horse or cow get shot by hunters who 'thought it was a deer'. I'll never forget hearing about the girl in the hot pink wind cheater on a gray horse, in an arena and nearly got killed because the hunter 'thought it was a deer' . . yeah, guess that brown saddle could have fooled anyone.

As for Peta and HSUS, they are just too scary for words. The whole thing totally baffles and terrifies me.

magnolia73

Jul. 3, 2007, 08:20 AM

there would be no need for PETA/HSUS/SPCA.

These organizations could bring to light serious issues. There are some animals treated very cruelly in this world. A hound set loose to kill a bunny then put to sleep with a gun when he can't hunt is pretty much not the problem. The problem is the conditions in which we raise food animals. I think we need an organization that can rationally raise these issues and lobby for humane treatment of these animals.... and make it easier for the people who raise animals in humane and sustainable ways to stay competitive in the market place.

PETA, HSUS, and many rescue organizations are little more than arrogant, self important people who like to tell others how to live. If it were not animals, they'd find some other thing to pontificate about. I do think some of these people really do feel for the animals, but a whole lot more just like to hear themselves prattle on.

I do think that people who lead "rural lifestyles"- hunters, farmers, ranchers would be wise to educate the public on what they do and why. JSwans info on how hunting dogs live as a pack was very educational. I've learned a lot about raising food animals from various farmers and ranchers who practice (IMO) humane methods - sometimes its hard to kill the pig, and other times the animals personality is such that you can't wait to make bacon. As people become removed from these lifestyles they just don't know and are apt to buy into slickly marketed information. I know Cass and Natalie who I buy eggs from and raise hogs are good people because I talk to them, and can go see their farm. I met a pack of hounds up in Virginia and saw the pride the master took in them and the level of comfort in their surroundings. I think this kind of outreach really will neutralize the effects that PETA and HSUS can have. Because they lie. And they get away with it because the people they lie about are silent.

yellow-horse

Jul. 3, 2007, 08:44 AM

J Swan, i agree with you about how to care for a pack of hounds, i have a small group, only 3 black and tans, my other dogs are other breeds. the house dogs go to the vet, the hounds get treated by me or by the vet who makes house calls, i would never think of taking one hound out of the pack to go to a vet, if one absolutely had to go in to a vet, i would have to take all of them,luckily there are only 3
the only time these hounds went to a vet was to be neutered when they were pups, otherwise they are treated at home and i would not take one to be euthanized, i would have the vet who makes house calls do it or have my neighbor shoot it
the other thing is if you live in a place long enough you do get to know the other folks around who have dogs, who the hunters are, who has what, most of the problem i've had with loose hounds have been the ones abandoned, the ones with collars or id on them are dogs that are wanted back by their owners, the poor hounds that for some reason are abandoned are on their own probably for the 1st time in their lives, it's very sad, a hound will break your heart sometimes

J Swan

Jul. 3, 2007, 10:05 AM

I think that often these opinions about hounds are formed because people don't have enough contact with hunting dogs to understand the pack dynamic.

Let me emphasize that I am no expert on hunting dogs, and only hunt my little Beagle for fun. There are others lurking or posting that know more about hounds and hunting than I ever will. I've just had more caffeine - and type really fast. I drink espresso by the mug. zing!

I guess it's kind of an urban perception - though I don't mean that as an epithet. That and taking everything an animal rights group says as gospel. I'd encourage people to find out for themselves - go to a trial, or go out with a footpack. Learn about hounds from a different perspective.

Listening to a hunter talk about his dogs is funny - often it's this big burly he-man type talking about his dogs the way a new mother gushes over her firstborn. If you're not quick enough - they'll corner you and show you puppy pictures and tell tall stories. Get a few of them together - and it's practically a hen party - all clucking over their dawgs. In the meantime - those dawgs are laying beside them or close by in their kennel - snoozing after a long day doing what the Good Lord made them for.

I have experienced true joy when seeing a hound, that I've walked during the summer, seen grow and mature, out hunting with the pack. What a wonderful sight - and sound. The color of the sky, the changing leaves, the smell of a fox, and the sound of a hound speaking on a line. Even the horses seem to know - they know the horn, the hounds - they know what's going to happen and for a moment - just a moment - I've felt myself part of Nature. Not an observer, not on the outside looking in or on the fringe - but actually a link in a chain that extends back thousands of years. yeah - sound silly - but there it is.

If you want to see a happy, well adjusted, healthy, fit dog - farm dogs or hunting dogs - in general - fit the bill. No dog Prozac, no skin allergies, no obesity, no self-mutilation, no living in crates all day, no nervous disorders - they only thing bad about 'em is that they usually smell to high heaven (which they love but makes my eyes water)

Just like there are good and bad pet owners, there are good and bad hunting dog owners. I think that groups like PETA and HSUS would serve animals better if they focused on helping animals in true need - those that are starved, beaten, neglected and alone. True altruism.

Sandy M

Jul. 3, 2007, 10:24 AM

I might be a bit dim here - but - what is PETA/HSUS's motivation/justification for killing animals?

I haven't read to the end, so maybe someone has responded to this, but basically, PETA doesn't believe animals should be kept as pets/slaves (?!?)/servants, etc. Their ideal is a world where all animals are either wild or... um....dead. They don't care about animal WELFARE, but animal "rights" - and appear to identify that right as the right to not be "owned." Better dead than "enslaved."

Turn your horse loose in the wild. If he starves, then he wasn't meant to survive. Dog shows are demeaning. Horse shows are demeaning. Racing/eventing/dressage are cruel, etc.

Hoofprince in Mud

Jul. 3, 2007, 04:30 PM

Turn your horse loose in the wild. If he starves, then he wasn't meant to survive. Dog shows are demeaning. Horse shows are demeaning. Racing/eventing/dressage are cruel, etc.

The grey thing turned himself loose the other day. The first thing he did was come down to the house, and stand looking in the window at the cartoons the kids were watching. Didn't seem to want to leave the property and become a "wild" horse.

I guess he'd give the peta and hsus people piles.

Teach

Jul. 3, 2007, 08:16 PM

In-ter-est-ing. Our grey thing turned HIMself loose yesterday, too. In his case, he screamed at the top of his lungs like he'd seen a spider 'till I came to rescue him & tuck him into his lovely stall, I mean grim, confining, dismal cell.

Sorry, peta/hsus--no takers here!

xeroxchick

Jul. 4, 2007, 11:33 AM

Domestication - well, it works both ways, doesn't it? Some theorize that dogs actually attached themselves to US, that they chose to follow and live with hunter/gatherer groups. In "Near a Thousand Tables" the author muses that if some alien looked at the earth from far away, he would think that corn and wheat had dominated and enslaved humans.

CarrieK

Jul. 4, 2007, 09:39 PM

Not meaning to hijack this thread, but the timing of this article in relation to the side-discussions here is too funny:
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/reviewofbooks_article/3517

J Swan

Jul. 5, 2007, 05:54 AM

That is too funny! My mother is visiting her sister in PA, and reported that my niece was horrified to find out that the hen she'd been playing with was killed by the rooster. Pecked and spurred to death. Chicken murder!!

I asked my mom if they ate the hen and she said no - they had to have a funeral for the hen because my niece had named it.

Never name it if you're going to eat it. That's the rule.

equusus

Jul. 5, 2007, 08:52 AM

"If you love something, set it free.
If it comes back to you, it's hungrey."

Inspired by my first horse....:D

april

xeroxchick

Jul. 5, 2007, 09:26 AM

Not meaning to hijack this thread, but the timing of this article in relation to the side-discussions here is too funny:
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/reviewofbooks_article/3517

Thanks for the link - interesting review and site.

I, for one, stopped eating "free range" chicken when I discovered that one of their favorite things to eat is puppy poo poo. Made cage cleaning time a snap when walking puppies, though.

wateryglen

Jul. 7, 2007, 01:53 PM

Wow there's been some very wise & learned folks contributing to this interesting thread. I especially liked JSwans description of a foxhounds life as a pack animal. Those of us who've seen them separated from their packs know how sad/lost they are.

But I also think there's a whole lotta folks in southern Va. that are NOT good hound owners/hunters. They don't hunt legitimately, don't take care of their hounds, and the dogs are dispensible. They give the good hunters a bad name just like bad horse owners/bad foxhunts ruin the sport for many of us. We can't generalize but my personal thoughts are that there ARE more of the redneck owned, chained to a tree somewhere, hungry.thin hounds down that way than you might think. Not surprised PETA did it down there. Don't condone it for sure. Just not surprised. I grew up in Tidewater. First hubby from central Virginny. I have been night hunting also.

Guin

Jul. 7, 2007, 07:14 PM

PETA are terrorists. I equate them with bioterrorists who break into labs and steal Anthrax, or blow up buses in bazaars. They are using "animal rights" to further their own sick agenda.

MistyBlue

Jul. 8, 2007, 07:10 AM

GKittredge; it is indeed legal for NH residents to shoot a dog harassing or chasing livestock or humans...and their law also covers humans both riding and walking, this is current dog control laws in NH:

466:28 Killing Dogs Legalized.

Any person may kill a dog that suddenly assaults the person while such person is peaceably walking or riding without the enclosure of its owner or keeper; and any person may kill a dog that is found out of the enclosure or immediate care of its owner or keeper worrying, wounding, or killing sheep, lambs, fowl, or other domestic animals.

Same in Vermont:

-- Added 1993, No. 213 (Adj. Sess.), § 2, eff. June 15, 1994; amended 2003, No. 42, § 2, eff. May 27, 2003.
§ 3545. Right to kill domestic pets or wolf-hybrids generally
(a) A person may kill a domestic pet or wolf-hybrid that suddenly assaults him or her or when necessary to discontinue an attack upon the person or another person provided that the attack or assault does not occur while the domestic pet or wolf-hybrid is restrained, within an enclosure containing the domestic pet or wolf-hybrid, or on the premises of the owner.
(b) A domestic pet or wolf-hybrid found wounding, killing or worrying another domestic pet or wolf-hybrid, a domestic animal or fowl may be killed when the attendant circumstances are such that the killing is reasonably necessary to prevent injury to the animal or fowl which is the subject of the attack. (Amended 1977, No. 215 (Adj. Sess.), § 1, eff. April 12, 1978; 1979, No. 92 (Adj. Sess.), § 1, eff. Feb. 28, 1980; 1993, No. 213 (Adj. Sess.), § 3, eff. June 15, 1994.)

Unfortunately VT allows wolf hybrids still...something I'd like to see changed soon.

As for PETA....they're nucking futs. The whole kit and caboodle of them. I'd like to see how many of them (officers in the organization) are from backgrounds other than suburban or urban and have actually dealt with or grown up with domesticated animals other than apartment pets.
I've seen them in action a handful of times over my lifetime...I have yet to see, meet or even hear/read about a single sane one that has a clue about real life.
Seriously...look at the only celebrities they're able to get to promote them:
Pamela Anderson, the late Anna Nicole Smith, Pharrel Williams, etc.
Not exactly the roster for Mensa.
Hell, not even a roster for the "I Can Tie My Own Shoes" organization. :rolleyes:

Bluey

Jul. 8, 2007, 11:22 AM

---"As for PETA....they're nucking futs. The whole kit and caboodle of them. I'd like to see how many of them (officers in the organization) are from backgrounds other than suburban or urban and have actually dealt with or grown up with domesticated animals other than apartment pets.
I've seen them in action a handful of times over my lifetime...I have yet to see, meet or even hear/read about a single sane one that has a clue about real life.
Seriously...look at the only celebrities they're able to get to promote them:
Pamela Anderson, the late Anna Nicole Smith, Pharrel Williams, etc.
Not exactly the roster for Mensa.
Hell, not even a roster for the "I Can Tie My Own Shoes" organization."---

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It would be funny, if it was not so sad.:(

I agree, except for one little detail, that Mensa's membership standards are not about how "normal" people are. Plenty of nuts there too.:yes:

I think that picking a loose dog up and taking it's collar off and discarding it should be easily prosecutable as stealing.:D

J Swan

Jul. 8, 2007, 11:28 AM

Mr. JSwan is a member of Mensa - and I thought that was pretty cool until we started getting the newsletters.

Uh - those folks ain't so smart.

Mr. JSwan agrees; he says he's just a good test taker and that's how he got in. I happen to think he is a super genius though.

---"As for PETA....they're nucking futs. The whole kit and caboodle of them. I'd like to see how many of them (officers in the organization) are from backgrounds other than suburban or urban and have actually dealt with or grown up with domesticated animals other than apartment pets.
I've seen them in action a handful of times over my lifetime...I have yet to see, meet or even hear/read about a single sane one that has a clue about real life.
Seriously...look at the only celebrities they're able to get to promote them:
Pamela Anderson, the late Anna Nicole Smith, Pharrel Williams, etc.
Not exactly the roster for Mensa.
Hell, not even a roster for the "I Can Tie My Own Shoes" organization."---

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It would be funny, if it was not so sad.:(

I agree, except for one little detail, that Mensa's membership standards are not about how "normal" people are. Plenty of nuts there too.:yes:

I think that picking a loose dog up and taking it's collar off and discarding it should be easily prosecutable as stealing.:D

citydog

Jul. 8, 2007, 01:15 PM

GKittredge; it is indeed legal for NH residents to shoot a dog harassing or chasing livestock or humans...and their law also covers humans both riding and walking, this is current dog control laws in NH:

Same in Vermont:

Yup. You can even get $5.00 for it: § 3749. Bounty on dog killing or worrying sheep

Selectmen may offer a bounty of $5.00 for anyone killing a dog caught in the act of killing or worrying sheep.

The dog officer in my town (in which your pack hunts, GKittredge) told me, when I asked him about what exactly I should/could do when loose dogs went after my sheep, "You are entitled to do what you gotta do."

grandprixjump

Jul. 8, 2007, 08:07 PM

LexInVA

Jul. 8, 2007, 08:38 PM

There are a lot of organizations that started for a good cause and then the WRONG people got control..

PETA
HSUS
Most Unions
Congress _ what would Washington think today
ACLU - Takes the rights away from 1000+ to make 1 happy

and there are TONS more

You know what they say about 1 million lawyers at the bottom of the Atlantic

A GOOD START

PETA was started by the same people who run it now. Definitely no corruption of ideals there since their goals and methods are the same as they were when they were started.

teacher

Jul. 8, 2007, 08:52 PM

LexInVA

Jul. 8, 2007, 09:20 PM

This thread has been an eye-opening education. I had no idea that PETA and HSUS did such awful things. So I guess that is the problem---not enough of us know what they do and what they stand for. How can we get the word out and put a stop to this?

The only thing you can do against them is to do what you can to keep money out of their accounts by convincing people you know not to donate to them. Equestrians only donate to HSUS because of their favorable opinion of horse owners and their stance on horse slaughter. PETA hates equestrians with a passion so you would do well to remind anyone you know who has horses of that if they are thinking about donating money. Without funding from the general public, only the most rabid devotees will be left in their ranks, and they are the ones you have to watch out for to begin with because they will use ANY MEANS to accomplish what they set out to do.

Bluey

Jul. 8, 2007, 09:52 PM

PETA was started by the same people who run it now. Definitely no corruption of ideals there since their goals and methods are the same as they were when they were started.

I know one charter member of PETA that quit them when they became so extremists, many years ago and if I remember well told me was not the only one that left.

Hoofprince in Mud

Jul. 9, 2007, 12:49 AM

I received a begging letter from Castleton Ranch Horse Rescue Inc. At the foot of their letter was printed: "Proud Members American Humane Society, . . ."

Umm, no thanks.

flea

Jul. 9, 2007, 10:08 AM

I donated a little to the HSUS during Katrina and now they won't leave me alone. (That was before I knew more) When I went for training at the local ASPCA/Humane Society center, they were very specific that the were not affiliated with the national organization which provided no money for rescue centers etc. and the national org. did not have any rescue sites, spaying neutering, anything. Strictly a political organization. Odd that they keep their name. I haven't been back...I help out at the local pound who tries very hard to maintain these animals in good atmosphere and tries very hard to rehome them. Local 4H groups etc. come to exercise and play with them. They advertise and go to the local fairs etc to promote adopting the animals. They have a nice play area for the animals. My question is...what are your thoughts on the ASPCA?

glitterless

Jul. 26, 2007, 05:06 AM

Thanks for the link - interesting review and site.

I, for one, stopped eating "free range" chicken when I discovered that one of their favorite things to eat is puppy poo poo. Made cage cleaning time a snap when walking puppies, though.

Yep. You should see the little critters that our layers eat. A bat once disappeared in seconds in the chicken enclosure. Gross.

J Swan

Jul. 26, 2007, 05:19 AM

If you think chickens are bad - you've never read stories about people falling in pig pens.

I have a pet Duroc who is the nicest thing in the world - really sweet. But my 6 year old niece is NOT allowed to be alone with him.

Nature red in tooth and claw, as the saying goes. It ain't Disney, that's for sure!

Brookes

Aug. 8, 2007, 04:55 PM

J. Swan, you all (you especially) have made my day with your stories of life where you are. What a wonderful existence you all seem to enjoy. Hunting dogs, horses, the good country life. I'm so jealous. Stuck in the city. oh well.

As for PETA, may they all rot in hell over a slow burning fire. They truly are nothing more than a bunch of terrorists.

I admit it I have a couple of fur coats. Ranched not trapped. I am very cautious as to where and when I expose them to the public. Last Christmas we went to dinner to a very expensive restaurant in Healdsburg for their holiday dinner. Everyone dressed to the nines, the other two ladies in our group also wore furs. However one of the furs was faux. We all left in a group and were standing on the porch waiting for the boys to fetch the cars.

We were accosted by a young woman who started to scream at us for being murdering butchers. We were very shocked to say the least. Well the twit turned to the two of us wearing real fur and said "as least you have enough brains and compassion to wear faux". Yup that would be us you twit. My friend then told her that her fur was faux, the girl called her a liar and proceeded to attempt to grab her coat. She got clocked with a lovely black beaded evening bag. (mine!) I told her that if she continued to attempt to assault my friend that I would personally dial 911 and have her arrested. Her response . . . . . . "my friends at PETA will have me out of jail in an hour".

The boys showed up, the manager showed up, and the police showed up and the young woman was asked to leave immediately and to not ever come there again. We were asked if she touched us and she told the police that I had assaulted her. Well I sorta kinda did whack the psycho with my wittle bitty purse. I told the officer that she was grabbing for my friend and that I knocked her hand away. He was happy with that and she was escorted off the grounds.

These would be the same fools that raided the mink farm up north and set all the little minkeys free. Little did they realize that minks are extremely territorial and viscious little critters. Well after they all tore each other's throats out a good portion of the rest were run over on the nearby highway. Yup that's saving the day!

It appears that they take action with little consideration for the result. They have released dogs from crates at bench shows here at the Cow Palace. Causing I believe it was one dog to be killed in traffic. This was a few years ago. Security has been beefed up since then and the dogs that are crated are watched very closely.

Nothing they do seems logical to me. With all that money they bring in they could be doing some real good out there. They are in no way protecting animals.

J Swan

Aug. 8, 2007, 06:17 PM

If you are ever in Virginia, you must stop by and visit my little ghetto farm. Peanut just came in from visiting the neighbors (they grill a lot and save her a steak - the darn hound eats better than I do.) Too hot to chase bunnies.

I trained the 3 year old to tie and stand for a bath today. This proved to be easier than I thought - I should hire myself out as a Monty/Parelli type trainer. I could call myself, The Amazing Monterelli.

Livestock came in overheated this am - 3 year old Perch cross was looking a little bad - so I said - the heck with the well water - he's getting a cold bath.

Hooked him up - forgetting I'd been too lazy to train him to tie. (Hey - it's a 100 degrees outside - my brain was fried). Turn on the hose - forgetting that he doesn't like cold water on his back.

Hit him with the water - horse pulls back on the tie. Looks confused for a second and then stands there quietly. I hose him down - he shakes like a dog and sighs. Untie him - put him in his stall in front of his fan. Horse goes to sleep.

Ta da! (sound of Monterelli groupies clapping and swooning)

Actually I'm lucky he's such a sensible horse - he had every right to stomp me into a greasy spot.

Spent the afternoon chasing a mean pygmy goat and cleaning an abscess. Ug. Goat abscesses.

I'm supposed to be legging up the hunt horse. Said horse makes his sad face and scrunches closer to his fan.

Filled the pig pool with cold water. Stuck my head out of the barn this evening and the damn pig is in the water trough - NOT the pig pool. He's just sitting on his butt looking like a little kid waiting for mommy to wash his back.

So I went out there with a cup and poured cold water on his back and asked him about his day. Yup - I'm a sucker. I love that pig.

Sure. Come visit. I'll put you to work. My next project is chickens. Get this - I'm going to raise them and EAT them - PETA can kiss my fat butt.
Maybe I'll make pillows out of their feathers and send them to PETA as a Christmas gift. evil snicker.....:D