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View Full Version : I found these stallions through Tamarack Hill site:



purplnurpl
Jun. 26, 2007, 01:35 PM
I was wisping through Denny's home site, actually looking at their working student program but of course my ADD landed me on the stallion page...

Check out Coolman.
OMG. Booms has done that to me on occasion and I end up gimping around for a week due to a pinched nerve/pulled muscle in my back or something. I can't imagine having to deal with that kind of back end over EVERY fence.

geez guys...
Anyone looking for a stallion for next year?
I love the face on Conquest. I like his fat cheeks. : )

http://www.fermebeaulieufarm.com/id35.htm

Happy eventing!

Kristen
http://s128.photobucket.com/albums/p189/xckaboom/?action=view&current=greenwood07009.jpg

Badger
Jun. 26, 2007, 02:25 PM
That is scope!

But I have a question: I looked at the fifth photo on Coolman's page and have to wonder...where does he stow his gear? He looks like a Coolgelding.

purplnurpl
Jun. 26, 2007, 02:37 PM
OMG. I didn't notice that the first time I looked at the pics.
very interesting indeedy.
maybe someone will chime in who knows the answer...like Denny.

Badger
Jun. 26, 2007, 02:53 PM
Maybe it was really, really, really, really cold that day?

purplnurpl
Jun. 26, 2007, 02:54 PM
my first thought was that maybe the warmed him up by taking him for a swim in the conditioning pool...the pool with no heater??

eventrider
Jun. 26, 2007, 10:06 PM
Funny you found these two....we have bred to them this year after Denny made me watch a video of them....they are both impressive and I can't wait to see how the babies are!

Christan

TB or not TB?
Jun. 26, 2007, 10:23 PM
Holy Zingbats! :eek::eek::eek: Maybe this TB thing is overrated...

denny
Jun. 27, 2007, 06:38 AM
I`m pretty sure that the elite event horse of the future will be a mix of breeds, bringing with that hereditary mix a corresponding mix of talents.
There are full tbs which are quiet, floaty movers at the trot, uphill at the canter, scopey and careful over the showjumps, etc, but finding one is tough, because they aren`t "purpose bred".
The average tb, and more so all the time, is bred to race very fast, at relatively short distances, at 2 and 3 years old. If you study the conditions books which come with your Blood Horse subscription, you will struggle to find races beyond 1 1/8th miles, and not many of those.
They are breeding little downhill bullets more than the old, classic Belmont type stayers.Eventing isn`t the only sport where stamina and endurance are waning qualities.
So big scopey jumper line warmbloods, which can also move beautifully, like Coolman and Conquest, seem good candidates to mix in with tb blood to create eventers for this new sport.
Make no mistake, it IS a new sport, not an evolution of old eventing.
But that`s what we`ve got, like it or not, and if you want to play the game, you need the right "equipment", and no piece of equipment is more crucial than your horse.
Except for "the heart on fire" of its rider!

BarbB
Jun. 27, 2007, 08:59 AM
There are full tbs which are quiet, floaty movers at the trot, uphill at the canter, scopey and careful over the showjumps, etc, but finding one is tough, because they aren`t "purpose bred".


I am lucky enough to have one of those. Everyone thinks he is a warmblood, but his heart is all TB. He is also 14 years old and I think when he is gone I will not likely find another.
Perhaps I will take up golf. :sigh:

ps
Coolman is very impressive

purplnurpl
Jun. 27, 2007, 09:34 AM
hence the reason mine arrived with no tattoo and no race training. : )
gatta love um!

I told the breeder he should breed sport horses instead of racers. lol.

I wish all the time that Booms were a stallion. But then again if he were, he would probably not be in my barn. ~

and luckily my heart comes with a mighty flame.
it is only the beginning. Many years to come.


but that Coolman. OMG.

denny
Jun. 27, 2007, 11:59 AM
Hey Purplnurpl,
If you think Coolman is impressive in photos, go see him in person. Last fall Michael Pollard and I were up there, and Carlo Zimmer jogged him for us in the driveway, sort of like the Rolex trot up. He has one of those walk strides like a panther, and his trot basically is gravity defying.
I said, "So, Michael, if you were at Badminton, and you saw THAT at the vet jog, what would you think?
Michael said, "I think I`d load up my horse and go home."
Those Quidam De Revel horses tend to be super scopey, I`ve been told, and this one moves like a big elastic band.
We bought 3 fillies and a young stallion by him, and Michael and Nathalie bought a colt, so we shall see.

purplnurpl
Jun. 27, 2007, 01:09 PM
"I'd load up my horse and go home."


that gave me a smashing lunch time laugh. : )

eventrider
Jun. 27, 2007, 02:06 PM
Denny,
I keep saying if something happens to my little mare, I will breed her to Coolman! Hopefully when she retires he will still be breeding.

Christan

eventer_mi
Jun. 27, 2007, 06:05 PM
You know, after looking through those photos (can't pull up the video, for some reason), the only thing I was thinking was, man, I don't think I could sit that jump! I think I would probably get tossed out of the saddle on the landing side each and every time.

Very impressive, but maybe a little too much jump for the average rider?

denny
Jun. 27, 2007, 06:29 PM
Christan, if you let anything happen to that little mare before you take her advanced, I will personally have you tarred and feathered, and dragged kicking and screaming through the show jumping arena at Rolex.

HiJumpGrrl
Jun. 27, 2007, 07:21 PM
Christan, if you let anything happen to that little mare before you take her advanced, I will personally have you tarred and feathered, and dragged kicking and screaming through the show jumping arena at Rolex.
:lol: Can I watch? My money's on Christan!

PS, that Coolman horse is a Freaky jumper. I might give up an appendage to ride one of them.

Gnep
Jun. 28, 2007, 12:46 AM
Denny,
whole New Game, did you change your breeding program, selection of mares and studs and what are you looking for or would if you are/were matching.
Which breeds/lines mixes would produce the horse that new eventing needs.

Do you think we will go the way of the western sports breeding ?

TallyhoFarms
Jun. 28, 2007, 01:15 AM
This one's for Denny...
Will your new stallion prospect, Skybreaker, breed next year as a 3yr old? I already have my Formula One baby (she's 3 weeks old tomorrow and I LOVE her!) but am curious to try for one more foal out of my older mare.
Meg

denny
Jun. 28, 2007, 07:37 AM
I had a conversation a couple of years ago with Mark Weissbecker that really got me thinking about breeding goals. He was talking about what a big difference that 4 extra inches of height, (from formerly 3 ft,11 inches, to now 4 ft, 3 inches) makes to a tired horse at Rolex on Sunday in show jumping.
Over the 29 years that encompassed my time at the advanced level, I only had the tiniest handful of horses that I could really count on to jump clean in stadium--King Oscar, Victor Dakin, York, For Pete`s Sake, maybe one or two others.
And that was at 3`11.
So over the years I`d go to jumper shows and watch horses lope over 5 feet, and, since they were French or Dutch or German, they also had big, bouyant trots, many of them.
So I begin to realize that I have a strong tb/Irish/English/NZ predudice, and that I am pretty blind, by conscious (or maybe unconscious choice) to anything that even smacks of the word warmblood.
So I decide not to be so self imposedly blind, and I decided to start to study warmblood lines, and learn more about that whole, huge segment of the sporthorse breeding industry that I`d been avoiding.
Which I proceeded to do, and since I`ve always been a pedigree fanatic, and can learn that stuff easily, because it interests me, I took it upon myself to become somewhat conversant with basically jumper lines.
I also became good friends with Bea and Carlo Zimmer, who moved from Luxembourg to Canada about ten years ago, and have a big jumper breeding operation there.
Watching those modern warmbloods move and jump was pretty eye opening, and although I still love the kinds of horses I`ve always had, I also appreciate the enormous physical gifts that "purpose bred" jumpers bring to the arena.
The question is the mix and match ratio, I suspect. So whether I`ll have a chance to get it right before they change the sport again remains to be seen, but it`s my guess that although some full tbs can still prevail in short format eventing, more likely some kinds of crosses will be the stars of the future.
What those crosses will be is the elusive and fascinating part to a breeder.

53
Jun. 28, 2007, 08:10 AM
So Denny, something that has been on my mind lately is the market for young cross bred horses...offspring of two nice parents, but not a youngster that can be registered or belong to any "group", other than to say "this young horse was bred to be an eventer".

Do you think the sport is taking a direction that will support breeding specifically for the young event horse?

So those of us with talented cross bred mares will have a market for youngsters who are bred to talented stallions with the traits we feel the sport is demanding?

Jaegermonster
Jun. 28, 2007, 08:33 AM
[QUOTE=denny;2526376]I`m pretty sure that the elite event horse of the future will be a mix of breeds, bringing with that hereditary mix a corresponding mix of talents.
There are full tbs which are quiet, floaty movers at the trot, uphill at the canter, scopey and careful over the showjumps, etc, but finding one is tough, because they aren`t "purpose bred".
/QUOTE]

I have one, too and of course it's by one of Denny's stallions!

Perfect Pony
Jun. 28, 2007, 10:23 AM
As absolutely stunning as that stallion is, I would be terrified to breed to him for fear I WOULD get a horse with that jump!

sm
Jun. 28, 2007, 11:24 AM
Watching those modern warmbloods move and jump was pretty eye opening, and although I still love the kinds of horses I`ve always had, I also appreciate the enormous physical gifts that "purpose bred" jumpers bring to the arena.
The question is the mix and match ratio, I suspect. So whether I`ll have a chance to get it right before they change the sport again remains to be seen...

I think you will have a chance to "get it right," the changes to the sport are predictable.

The FEI changes are not by accident. I don't think the euro registries are leaving the marketplace to chance over the next 10-50 years, it is big bucks and an extremely important export business. They are structuring events to match their horses' strengths and downplay weaknesses to dominate the international market. And they have the bloodline database to get the job done -- just think, what good would it do to require steeplechase since their database isn't overly strong there? The direction of any additonal changes to come are entirely predictable -- JMHO.

wannabegifted
Jun. 28, 2007, 11:30 AM
I hope so!! My mare is 7/8 TB and 1/8 ID... she cannot truely be registered for anything, but can be put in pre-mare books... I opted to NOT get her inspected or her colt by riverman.... He is my first attempt at marketing the "event-bred horse)

Long Shadow Farm
Jun. 28, 2007, 11:49 AM
I have to agree that Europe is going to lean on FEI and make the sport turn towards something that will fit their programs more. Our breed organizations over here are just not organized enough to have that much influence over the FEI. So I think we are going to have to suck it up and start playing the new game of Eventing and producing the new "type" of horse that will excel. That is one of the main reasons I leased a half Dutch half TB mare from a friend of mine to bred for the next couple of years. This year she is in foal to a really nice young TB stallion that I like, but I will be for sure breeding her to a warmblood next year. I think to be competive in 5 or 10 years from now, you are going to have to have more and more Warmblood movement and jump.... but I still feel that there will be the need of a touch of TB speed and spark.

Bobbi

sm
Jun. 28, 2007, 11:58 AM
I have to agree that Europe is going to lean on FEI and make the sport turn towards something that will fit their programs more. Our breed organizations over here are just not organized enough to have that much influence over the FEI. So I think we are going to have to suck it up and start playing the new game of Eventing and producing the new "type" of horse that will excel.

Well I'll suck half of it up :) and support the new game.

We do need to get more organized, work on our own bloodline database, and I look at the AQHA for excellence in creating a market niche and keeping the dollar flow inside the USA instead of financial dependence elsewhere. And AQHA also did great in creating a new FEI sport (reining), more kudos to them.

Yes, the warmbloods can be beautiful and totally gorgeous. But I'll be staying with the TBs, that's where my heart and soul is. Godwilling, we'll somehow find a way so USA sporthorse econonic strength will remain in the USA.

Perfect Pony
Jun. 28, 2007, 12:08 PM
you are going to have to have more and more Warmblood movement and jump.... but I still feel that there will be the need of a touch of TB speed and spark.

Don't forget that warmbloods are very often part TB. TBs were part of their foundation, and they continue to remain improvement sires to this day. When warmbloods get too much warmblood bloodlines and too heavy TBs are brought in the improve and refine.

If or when I breed my mare it will be to an approved TB or a WB with a lot of TB blood, she needs to improve her canter and fitness and needs an infusion of TB blood after being all Hanoverian for several generations. I would love to breed her to a TB like Coconut Grove - and the offspring while 1/2 TB would be a registered "pure" Hanoverian.

Carol Ames
Jun. 28, 2007, 02:16 PM
Don';t forget Fred: A Fine Romance, :yes:TB, reg, and approved :lol:Oldenburg Look for "Fred" on this board :lol:

frugalannie
Jun. 28, 2007, 05:28 PM
Denny, thank you for your thoughtful and concise comment on the pressure the changing requirements of eventing are exerting on breeding. Very interesting.

I must admit thatI've always loved TBs, but when breeding for sale have tended towards a warmblood cross (1/4 to 1/2). They are (in general) an easier ride for the adult amateur. Now, on the very small chance that I breed something really special, perhaps it can go up the ranks.

And I really, really wish that bloodlines came easily to me. I find them harder than quadratic equations!

not again
Jun. 28, 2007, 05:41 PM
Sarah Cousins had a win at Plantation Field on a homebred. Since she bred one of her event mares to our old eventing stallion to produce this individual, it is a thrill for everyone. It shows successful American breeding from proven performance lines. Go Sally!

eventrider
Jun. 28, 2007, 08:55 PM
Denny, that threat is enough to make me go advanced tomorrow. I am going to have to find a scheme to get in the ring at Rolex one way or another ;). You just need to hurry up and get back here!!!!


Christan

denny
Jun. 28, 2007, 09:07 PM
So Denny, something that has been on my mind lately is the market for young cross bred horses...offspring of two nice parents, but not a youngster that can be registered or belong to any "group", other than to say "this young horse was bred to be an eventer".

Do you think the sport is taking a direction that will support breeding specifically for the young event horse?

So those of us with talented cross bred mares will have a market for youngsters who are bred to talented stallions with the traits we feel the sport is demanding?

You know the old saying "You can`t ride papers." That said, I want my crossbred foals to be in some sort of registry, maybe The Performance Horse Registry, so people know what they are.
I think breed fanatics tend to have a blind eye toward horses that aren`t of their chosen breed, something I`ve personally tried to avoid.
I prefer to assess a horse`s worth based upon whether or not he can get it done on the field of combat. Others like specific breeds. Whatever flicks your Bic!

Gnep
Jun. 29, 2007, 12:34 AM
But for whom do we breed.
Nturally everybody wants to produce a rolex, but thats like playing Lotto, which breeding is anyhow.

But one more observation, watchin rolex and badminton and a bit of luhmuehlen, it was the smaller horse that just made those combination look easy, they just bounced through them, the larger guys and girls labored it looked very hard on them.

53
Jun. 29, 2007, 08:21 AM
For someone in my situation, one mare, at a boarding facility, I have to breed only for myself....will the foal(s) be for sale? It is likely that they will be for sale...but I have to entertain the possibility that the foal will stay with me. I am confident to start and train on my own, so I look at my own situation as an opportunity to breed a nicer horse than I could buy.

MTshowjumper
Jun. 29, 2007, 09:45 AM
But one more observation, watchin rolex and badminton and a bit of luhmuehlen, it was the smaller horse that just made those combination look easy, they just bounced through them, the larger guys and girls labored it looked very hard on them.

Good call. When I was a WS for a BNR a little over a year ago, Capt Mark Phillips came over for a team training session. He said that the kind of horse he was looking for to go to the next olympics was the small compact catty type.

kcooper
Jun. 29, 2007, 12:24 PM
My Oldenburg mare was bred yesterday to a TB stallion who is Oldenburg approved. She is a lovely mover and very good jumper but I have always wished she had a few more pure TB characteristics. She is out of a TB mare and has several TBs on her sires side as well, but her gallop could be better and she lacks that quick-footed, catlike jumping ability that so many TBs have. So this baby will be more than 3/4 TB yet will be registered Oldenburg. I plan to keep the baby, but you never know what is going to happen in life, and you gain a broader market with a registered horse. I also was very concerned about ending up with a really big horse. I like 'em most around 15'3" to 16". My mare is 16'1" so I did not want a large sire or one that tends to throw giants. We'll see how this mix blends!
I was also thinking seriously about one of the Welton stallions. They are almost all TB with a touch of RID. But I was a big nervous about doing that much "mixing." Maybe next time . . .

eventer_mi
Jun. 29, 2007, 03:04 PM
I would be one of those who DON'T breed for Rolex, or any other four star, for that matter.

Like 53, I would breed for myself. Of course, there is that possibility that I might have to sell the baby, but since I have only one mare, I would be breeding that baby for a nicer horse than I could afford - I know that breeding is buying on the payment plan instead of all up front, but it's more palatable to the hubby that way.

The vast majority of us do NOT want to ride at the four star level. The vast majority of us are aiming for a Prelim ceiling, tops. So, I would be breeding for that crowd, since there are a heck of a lot more buyers than at the four star level. Plus, if that horse has the temperment to pack around the average ammy at a hunter show, that expands your potential market even more.

RAR, I'm totally with you. I don't WANT to breed my mare to a horse with a jump like that, since I doubt I could ride the baby's jump! I'd far rather breed for temperment and rideability, since I'd be doing the training. I can admire a horse with a jump like that without wanting it for myself.

Anyway, I think my mare might have a date with Fred in the near future...

ZEBE
Jun. 29, 2007, 03:20 PM
Hi Denny,

Just finished having the vet do the 60 day ultrasound this afternoon- on our mare (Brown Betty) (vet has worked with you/your stallions in the past).. anyway everything looks GREAT at 60 days- We certainly hope to have a great event prospect! --Barbara/Oliver King

eventrider
Jun. 29, 2007, 04:38 PM
The problem that I see (and this is not directed at anyone on this board, as I don't know any of your horses) is that many amateur owners LOVE their mares and breed for "themselves" and are not critical enough of the quality mare they are breeding. No matter how nice the stallion is, crossed with a grade mare, the foal will not be of the highest quality. Then when things don't work out and the foal needs to be sold we have average horses on the market and being evented. Temperment is very important, but so is talent and soundness. I am not sure what the solution is to improve our breeding stock, but I think it needs to focus on the mares as well as the stallions. If we had an eventing type registry, we could have an inspection process and hopefully weed out the lesser quality mares. This would hopefully encourage sound breeding practices, which should be MOST important in a sport like eventing. I think this might touch on the safety issue we are looking at as well. Amateur riders especially should be mounted on safe, sane, scopey jumpers to get out of a mess without flipping if needed. Any thoughts?

Christan

Janet
Jun. 29, 2007, 04:51 PM
If we had an eventing type registry, we could have an inspection process and hopefully weed out the lesser quality mares. Are you proposing an inspection process based on actual eventing results? If not, what are you basing it on? Don't forget that Jack LeGoff himself said that Bally Core (gold medal winner) had "less than ideal" conformation.

Would your proposed inspection process have approved Teddy's dam?

Gnep
Jun. 29, 2007, 05:26 PM
Excelent point Janet,
but never the less it would be helpful to have something like a mare koerung or evaluation.

In Germany they have the Staats Praemien Stuten Test, were ridebility, workebility and exterior qualities are judged and evaluatet and one can do basicly the same considering the needs of, Dressage, Jumping and Eventing.
Does that mean that at altimes the quality is improved, No. But if gives the breeder markers to follow.
Naturally a Teddymom would have falen through, but I see Teddy, he defenetly needs a superman cape, as a very rare outcrop.

Denny, do you refuse mares ?

JER
Jun. 29, 2007, 06:29 PM
If we had an eventing type registry, we could have an inspection process and hopefully weed out the lesser quality mares. This would hopefully encourage sound breeding practices, which should be MOST important in a sport like eventing.

The quality of the mare is not nearly as important as the quality of her offspring.

It's tough -- hereditability runs, in theory, at 25%. You want to find those mares that produce desired traits most of the time. Whether or not the mare exhibits those traits herself is irrelevant in breeding.

Also, 'soundness' and 'quality' are not necessarily the same thing. You can have a perfectly conformed horse that doesn't work and then a whole family of horses who are not well put together but are as tough as nails. No easy answer for these things.

That Coolman stallion is gorgeous but I'm not sure I'd want to ride that jump over solid obstacles and tough combinations. A sunken road would be interesting, wouldn't it? I'm curious to see how his foals turn out.

denny
Jun. 29, 2007, 07:16 PM
What I find very encouraging is all this interest in American event horse breeding.
For years and years it didn`t seem to matter much in our sport, in America, at least, where the horses came from. Now more and more riders are beginning to equate pedigree and performance, which is what the Germans figured out years ago in dressage and show jumping, and is probably one of the reasons they have so totally dominated those disciplines for so long.
The problem with trying to compete with the Germans is that they are so analytical and methodical, and they don`t leave much to chance.
Has anyone noticed that since the inception of the short format they are also beating everyone in eventing, too? (Except for that extra circle in the Olympics, which wasn`t the fault of the horse!)
They breed purpose driven horses, and I think they "work backwards" in their breeding decisions.
By which I mean they say,"OK, so what kind of horse do we need in order to win in eventing? We need to be right up there in dressage. So what qualities must the horse bring to the arena? We need obedient, lovely moving, elastic and elevated movement."
Then they say (I`m guessing), "OK, so now what must we do to keep our lead after dressage? We have to go fast and clean, and finish sound. OK, so what kind of horse can both win the dressage, and stay on top after the 2nd day?
Then they figure that out.
Then they say, "OK, so what else must the horse possess to leave the jumps in the cups on Sunday?"
So then they add those genetic ingredients.
Now they are superbly well mounted, and they have a prodigious work ethic, so they kick major butt, including American butt.
We can bring the same focus to our breeding programs, and good for the USEA to have instituted the various young horse programs to help us along.
Now if our kids could just get that German work ethic----????? !!!!!!

Gnep
Jun. 29, 2007, 07:51 PM
If one Googles the apendix to the horses name FRH than one gets an idear of what Denny means, and than the results of those horses.
FRH = Verein zur Förderung des Reitsports auf hannoverschen Pferden

This is a organisation that promotes breeding programs, owns horses out of those breedinf programs and places the results of those breeding program into the proper hands.
Its just one step further than just breeding. If one looks at how many of those international top horses are owned by that organisation and are placed with top riders in Dressage, Jumping and Eventing than one gets it.

what always surprised me, that there was never a real national breeding Program and Organisation in this country for Dressage, Jumping and Eventing and that it always depended on the programs from abroad. That Despite the unusual amount of first class horses.

I think that there is room and real need to have programs like the FRH

Hihihi Denny your very last sentence made me grinn

eventrider
Jun. 29, 2007, 10:58 PM
I am not proposing that we model an eventing registry exactly after breed registries. I am sure it would take a colaboration of minds "in the know" to develope a standard to go by, including performance of the mare and offspring. And Janet, yes, Melody (Teddy's mom) would have slipped through the cracks, BUT....as I have ridden Teddy through Advanced myself and know his full siblings well, I do NOT think that the mare crossed with 99% of stallions out there would have produced another Teddy. We have yet to produce another Teddy using the SAME mare and stallion! My point is, there will be some special horses produced out of non-traditional lines, but the majority of horses will be quality. That will mean knowing lines and using them, looking at longevity (there will of course be TB lines that have proven their stamina in the racing world, etc.) and offspring production. Maybe the mares should be older before being presented, who knows.
NOw, I am sure Teddy himself would have been accepted in an eventing registry as he is a lovely jumper that reminds me of Coolman actually. And I think the interest in sport horse breeding is important and exciting. Coming from breeding show and working dogs, the pedigree lines are more important than the actual conformation/performance of the actual dog to be bred in many cases. When you have an established line, you know what TYPE of dog that line generally produces, and crosses well with. Therefore, you can breed a less than show quality dog with a good cross line, and often get a great show dog. And of course, out of a single litter, most are NOT top show quality. IF we knew our lines better, and what they crossed well with, we would have a real jump on what we produced. Quality breeding would in turn make the offspring more valuable and sellable at a young age, and that would encourage more and better breeders to put their time into the sport. When the horses are worth more, the professionals will be able to make a living and there will be money in our sport to encourage sponsors, more land, more events, etc. I don't think this is a bad thing. And for example, most Bull Terrier breeders I show with have a 1-2 year waitlist for even non-show quality puppies, because people know what they are getting. And they are priced at 2-3k per puppy. I don't think this is totally realistic in horses, but it would be nice to move in that direction!

Christan

GreekDressageQueen
Jun. 30, 2007, 12:20 AM
:eek:WOW:eek: - I have never seen a horse jump like that. Apparently, my young gelding did that to me over a stone wall at Greenwood in Weatherford - I think it was a Training level jump, but I don't really recall much as I was completely jumped out of the tack and landed a good 10 feet away.

The question(s) I have are - how can this horse physically sustain this style without causing overload damage to the front legs or twisting his back? This rocket launcher, spine cracking jump is athletic and impressive as heck, but I worry about the physical strain it might cause. Of course, I have never seen this stallion in person so maybe it looks and feels much different. Also, do you want this kind of jump on cross country? It would seem this style would not be helpful in tight distances, drops, bounces, or even jumping down hill. Anyway, just food for thought. I am not trying to disparage this beautiful stallion or say anything bad. I was just thinking these things as I scrolled through the pictures with my jaw dropping in awe! Kudos to this amazing jumper AND the brave riders that can stay on his back! :yes:

Hey Denny - what ever happened to a TB stallion you had named Reputed Testimony? I was going to breed my ISH mare to him or Mystic Replica in 1999. Sorry, Rep won out in the end, but I don' t see this stallion listed anymore. He was really nice looking.

omare
Jun. 30, 2007, 12:22 PM
my thought was where does all the extra bascule fit into the eventing cross-country...as an outsider it always seemed to me the cross-country encouraged, promoted, or required (?) horses to jump flat which would catch up with them in the staduim....very few if any eventer horse seem to jump with much bascule at that level (ok I did not see the germans rounds and it is in my very layman eyes so take with a pound of salt) .... but you can see the rails have to come down in stadium with the flat trajectory of the jumping form.... (Simple physics?)

Bravestrom
Jun. 30, 2007, 02:03 PM
I am going to add a whole different train of thought here.

We event clyde hackney crosses. We also breed them with warmbloods and I have a belgian/tb cross that has a foal by rio grande.

We have a mare that is 6 yrs old - she was backed at 5 yrs old and did entry her first season with a rider that did his first season of eventing. She won her first entry event this year, bumped up to pt - placed 9th in her first event and won the next one. She has yet to refuse a fence on the cross country course at an event.

It scares me to see so many riders on tbs that are pulling their riders around the course. I think a lot more riders should be looking at this cross as an event prospect - maybe not for the highest levels but for learning and attitude at the lower levels.

While we have yet to see how far up this horse can go - I have no doubt she can do training and possibly prelim, we are breeding her siblings to produce a new type of event horse because we need it. We prefer the larger bone/size of the crosses we have.

We have one clyde/hackney/swedish warmblood cross now on the ground - father was an eventer and I event the mother's brother. We also have a rio grande filly by our belgian/tb mare - she is a yearling and can already clear the paddock fence.

You see a lot of draft crosses at the lower levels - why is that - attitude - although ours have great jump too.

Just some food for thought - I don't want to get into the whole draft cross debate again.

sm
Jun. 30, 2007, 02:04 PM
Omare, speaking of jump: at the Athens Olympics there were only two horses in stadium jumping to jump clean. One was Amy Tryon's Poggio II, OTTB and ex-pack horse. I don't remember the other horse. Anyway, my point is few horses actually showed up in stadium and went clean.

So although we've been talking jump for a long time now, I'm wondering if the focus instead should be floaty gaits with suspension, with uphill build to facilitate that movement. Should help jump in theory, but more importantly the way points are weighed today to get the gold, it's the dressage score.

omare
Jun. 30, 2007, 03:49 PM
oops-I did forget about that that little thing called the dressage score!

purplnurpl
Jul. 2, 2007, 10:02 AM
My friend and I were talking just yesterday about Coolman's jumping technique.

Our questions:

1. Where is the market? Most horses are sold to amateurs as we are 80% or more of the market right?
That is definitely a jump that am amateur is most likely not going to be able to ride.

2. How will this horse stand up to the test of time? That kind of kick back has got to be hard on stifles, hocks, lower back. And the landing has got to be hard on front legs and shoulders. Great movement and jump is all find and dandy...but it means nothing if the soundness isn't there long term.

3. Who wants to ride that around Rolex? Ouch.

If these types of jumpers DO stay sound then they would ultimately be bred for FEI mount.

We had the Mexican eventing team come through Area V three years ago.
There were 3 or 4 riders I believe....and many many horses. The story with these horses was that the team researched eventing stallions and made horses SPECIFICALLY for the squad. They were between the ages of 6-8 and all terribly athletic looking. Like Rockets. Very impressive. I am guessing this is what many of the European teams do.

Seems as though in the US, pros wait for amateurs to come up with fantastic prospects and then Syndicates swoop in a swipe them out from under us.

I think if the US is going to be competitive we better start taking notes because we may be running out of horsepower in the few years to come.

I may get lashed for this comment but I'm going to put it out there:
Right now, the best thing we have going for us is a Pony.

Long Shadow Farm
Jul. 2, 2007, 10:15 AM
I have to admit that I am looking at breeding two different types of horses right now. One is suitable for me, ammy rider who wants to go Prelim and maybe dabble at Intermediate if I get brave enough. I want something quiet and trainable first, then good safe jumper, then good mover. Movement may win dressage tests, but I want to know that my neck is going to be saved by a scopey enough jumper who is super steady when I have my ammy moment and go oops. The second horse I am breeding is something I have now expectations to ride but will be super talented and much more suitable for the pro. I think this is one of the big problems we face because in the US our market is more geared towards an Ammy or YR horse (cause we all know that is where the bucks are) and not so much to the upper crust pro rides.

Bobbi

not again
Jul. 2, 2007, 10:16 AM
The first Kentucky Three Day winner was an American-bred horse named Aachen with Debby Hoyt aboard, by the imported Hanoverian stallion Abundance out of a tb polo pony mare of Knute Rhondum's and Dianna Marra. Aachen was also USCTA horse of the year that year. Point being, using the right warmblood stallions on American mares is historically successful. Abundance was a straghtforward ride with great talent and very smart. That certainly plays a part in any genetic package.

LLDM
Jul. 2, 2007, 11:23 AM
I think it is very wrong to assume that Teddy's dam would have fallen through the cracks. I had a mare who was Teddy's niece (a granddaughter of Teddy's sire, the original Theodore) who did quite well at a German Kuering. Although she was not registered, she scored quite well - despite some obvious flaws and was within one tenth of a point of two of my best mares of that registry. She was 1/4 TB (Theodore), 1/4 Hanoverian (Dirk) and 2/4s Appy! (no spots).

Although her pedigree was not officially (DNA verified) documented, she was evaluated on her merits as presented. Although her scores were worthy of main studbook status, her lack of documentation put her in the lowest studbook - however she and her offspring could have moved up in a variety of ways, including the quality of her offspring and her performance or her offspring's performance and/or inspection scores. I presented her to that particular registry because of those particular possibilities.

Each registry is unique in what they are breeding for and how they consider the various components which lead to their goals. Each breeder (hopefully) does the same. The weight given by each registry or individual to pedigree, previous offspring, competition results, specific evaluations of conformation, type, temperament, technique, style, work ethic, scope, speed, and the correctness, quality, and pureness of gaits is, by necessity, quite different according to the goals. Even so, Mother Nature, with her incessant drive toward genetic diversity, still has her say. Yes, breeding is a crap-shoot - but we load the dice as best we can. It helps a great deal over the long haul. The more information the better.

As for the Germans, well they are quite generous with their knowledge and information. It is not their fault we have not taken breeding specifically for the disciplines seriously in this country for more decades than I can count. We have failed to keep records of pedigree, performance and how they relate to one another. No name or number is sacred, so we can rarely even track the career of one horse with any certainty.

Until there is enough collective will to do so in this country, we will stay where we are - which includes our upper level riders going to Europe for horses. And I don't mean breeders, I mean riders, trainers and the orgs themselves.

Maybe eventing is the one discipline that will break this open. I hope so, because here I am! A Kuering system can be anything you want it to be as long as it is consistent and keeps impeccable records. Even if eventing continues to change, if the appropriate records are there with the relevant details, the goal of the program can change much more quickly to accommodate it. Not that this is what I want, just that it is possible.

I wish I could tell you what happened with my cross bred mare - unfortunately I lost her last year after a long battle with Colitis. I had waited to breed her pending her performance career - but alas, I ran out of time.

SCFarm

denny
Jul. 2, 2007, 12:33 PM
For those who think that Coolman`s jumping style is "too hard on himself" I`d say you have to watch him actually move and jump, not just judge from "moment in time" photos.
I agree his sheer scope is almost freaky, but what saves him is that every inch of him moves like an elastic band, so that there`s very little concussive effect.
Judging from photos is like those George Morris Practical Horseman commentaries where the best riders in the world can look awkward, and bad riders can look good, when photos alone are the criteria.
I like the other stallion, Conquest, too. If you study his pedigree next to Cavalier`s (world`s leading event horse sire, sire of Ben Along Time, etc, the similarity is striking)
Our mare by Dobel`s Cento had a colt by Beaulieu`s Conquest that`s down with our sport horse breeding partners, Michael and Nathalie Pollard, in Georgia, and I`ll try to get some photos of him up on our website.

GreekDressageQueen
Jul. 2, 2007, 04:08 PM
:):)
For those who think that Coolman`s jumping style is "too hard on himself" I`d say you have to watch him actually move and jump, not just judge from "moment in time" photos.
I agree his sheer scope is almost freaky, but what saves him is that every inch of him moves like an elastic band, so that there`s very little concussive effect.
Judging from photos is like those George Morris Practical Horseman commentaries where the best riders in the world can look awkward, and bad riders can look good, when photos alone are the criteria.:):)

You are absolutely right - we can't judge 100% based on a photo, but Coolman consistently jumps in this style, which is both hard for amateurs to ride and perhaps not stylistically appropriate for eventing. I don't think the pictures are misrepresenting those issues. As for being "too hard on himself" - I am sure he is very elastic and a beautiful mover, however, even elastic bands snap when too much pressure is applied over time. This horse may never have problems and as the stallion manager with potential customers on this BB - you want to dissuade any negative comments. I understand that, but we are not trying to be negative or nibby for no reason. :no: We are just commenting on what we see in the pictures. I may be a "nobody" compared to the Poulins, O'Conners, Woffords, etc...but I personally don't want a horse with this style nor would I want it passed on to my foals regardless of pedigree. An educational discussion on the benefits of one style over another would be interesting...especially as it applies to current market trends. :yes: Any takers?

sm
Jul. 2, 2007, 04:35 PM
An educational discussion on the benefits of one style over another would be interesting...especially as it applies to current market trends. :yes: Any takers?

Well, as long as we're discussing jumping ability, perhaps I can leave today's eventing sire's for a moment.

To separate the market trends from fact, I would want to hardcore jumping. So, I turn my attention to real jumps, namely the puissance wall. Take a look at both photos, it's like a x-c jump on steriods: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huaso_%28horse%29

Chilean Army Captain Alberto Larraguibel, set the high-jump world record on an ex-racer on February 5, 1949, by jumping 2.47 meters (8 ft. 1¼ in.), in Viña del Mar, Chile. It's one of the longest-running unbroken sport records in history (57 years as of 2006.)

Regarding **super-duper** breeding improvements today, where did everybody go? Puissance, anyone? Or are we really still looking at one friggin' army captian and one ex-race horse (with slight limp in the left hind from an old injury) 58 years later.

I believe suspension is in demand and is necessary in the dressage score, therefore mandatory to win today's marketed version of eventing. If you want to prove to me hyper-gaited suspension helps jump, set your frigging rails to 8 ft. 1- 3/4 in. and show me.

Long Shadow Farm
Jul. 2, 2007, 04:38 PM
I think many people would be suprised on how many horses actually have a higher "kick" over fences than the people think. I had a TB gelding that was very easy to ride over fences that in a few pictures that were snapped later than the cute knees up over the front would show that he had a "kick". Even Phillip Dutton commented on him once in a clinic that he was very neat and clean with his hind end. However, he never had a big jolt to it. I think it just shows a lot of scope that the horse has available. I wouldn't mind it actually as long as the form and flow of the horse over the actual fence was nice (which Coolman has from the videos that I have watched of him). Plus Coolman's pictures are taken from a Stadium/Showjumping were he is much more collected/compacted than most of the Eventers would be over cross country (jumping out of a much more forward stride), so I think some of that "kick" would not show up as much.

Bobbi

bornfreenowexpensive
Jul. 2, 2007, 04:39 PM
I loved the shots of Coolman. If he is very elastic...it probably isn't that hard to stay on or with. I find the horses who are jarring much tougher.

This year is the first year that I've bred a mare....fingers crossed she catches. I was shocked at how many choices I had...too many choices. In the end, I decided it was crap shoot anyway and picked a stallion who I think compliments the mare and was affordable for this first foal. I want to see what this mare produces. Half if not more is the quality of your mare.

I will be adding Coolman to my list to look at in the future!

denny
Jul. 2, 2007, 06:48 PM
I don`t own Coolman, and I don`t make one penny from any Coolman stud fees. Quite the contrary, if someone breeds to him, they don`t breed to mine.
I just like the horse, and his foals, enough so that I bought 3 fillies and a colt by him.
So, as I say, my primary criteria for worth is whether or not they can get it done on the field of combat. Time will tell if I`m right or wrong.
If you like a different horse, breed to that one and come beat me!
Although by the time these little babies are 5, I`ll be 70, so that might give you an edge!

buschkn
Jul. 2, 2007, 06:58 PM
You being 70 might get some people closer to you, but still won't give them an edge! Especially if you are riding something that jumps like Coolman! Just think of Walt. ;)

-Karina

denny
Jul. 2, 2007, 07:25 PM
Thanks, Karina. I know that, but I`m just trying to entice them to try!

Drvmb1ggl3
Jul. 2, 2007, 07:37 PM
Well, as long as we're discussing jumping ability, perhaps I can leave today's eventing sire's for a moment.

To separate the market trends from fact, I would want to hardcore jumping. So, I turn my attention to real jumps, namely the puissance wall. Take a look at both photos, it's like a x-c jump on steriods: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huaso_%28horse%29

Chilean Army Captain Alberto Larraguibel, set the high-jump world record on an ex-racer on February 5, 1949, by jumping 2.47 meters (8 ft. 1¼ in.), in Viña del Mar, Chile. It's one of the longest-running unbroken sport records in history (57 years as of 2006.)

Regarding **super-duper** breeding improvements today, where did everybody go? Puissance, anyone? Or are we really still looking at one friggin' army captian and one ex-race horse (with slight limp in the left hind from an old injury) 58 years later.

I believe suspension is in demand and is necessary in the dressage score, therefore mandatory to win today's marketed version of eventing. If you want to prove to me hyper-gaited suspension helps jump, set your frigging rails to 8 ft. 1- 3/4 in. and show me.

That's not a Puissance wall.

Puissance is a straight up and down wall, and taking nothing from Huaso's remarkable achievement, but jumping a Puissance wall is harder.
The world Puissance record is owned by a Franke Sloothaak's horse, Leonardo, at 7' 10½".

sm
Jul. 2, 2007, 08:28 PM
Thank you for the correction. You're right of course on the type of wall. I hope my trends-in-marketing point is still made though... I still think if they could they would break the record for height, over any type of jump. Silly of them not to after all.

Although maybe this is the wrong place on an eventing sire thread to discuss this, since the OP eventing stallions are beautiful.

eventrider
Jul. 2, 2007, 08:58 PM
Ok....I for one WANT a jump like Coolman's. I think that the comments on this board about NOT wanting to breed a great jump is a perfect example of why we have so many low quality horses going around lower levels out there. Please remember that the rider on that horse is fabulous and if you put an ammy on Coolman, that restricted his head, sat on his back over the fence, etc, how would he jump? Safely and cleanly, but probably without so much roatation. And, he is also being shown at slow speeds over stadium fences; make him gallop and train him to jump across wide fences at speed and it will be a different jump. I am looking to breed for a team horse; a Rolex winner, and he is my top choice. And Denny, please wait a little longer to compete these babies until I have my own and can even be in the same ballpark! It makes NO sense to me to say " I don't want to breed that much quality". Think of the whole picture here...the horse is as good as the rider in many situations, and if it has a good attitude, you will ride it fine...

Long Shadow Farm
Jul. 2, 2007, 10:07 PM
Ok....I for one WANT a jump like Coolman's. I think that the comments on this board about NOT wanting to breed a great jump is a perfect example of why we have so many low quality horses going around lower levels out there. Please remember that the rider on that horse is fabulous and if you put an ammy on Coolman, that restricted his head, sat on his back over the fence, etc, how would he jump? Safely and cleanly, but probably without so much roatation. And, he is also being shown at slow speeds over stadium fences; make him gallop and train him to jump across wide fences at speed and it will be a different jump. I am looking to breed for a team horse; a Rolex winner, and he is my top choice. And Denny, please wait a little longer to compete these babies until I have my own and can even be in the same ballpark! It makes NO sense to me to say " I don't want to breed that much quality". Think of the whole picture here...the horse is as good as the rider in many situations, and if it has a good attitude, you will ride it fine...

Kudos Eventrider and I totally agree!!!

Bobbi (who is hoping to get to breed a few of those really fancy babies next year!)

eventer_mi
Jul. 2, 2007, 10:29 PM
Ok....I for one WANT a jump like Coolman's. I think that the comments on this board about NOT wanting to breed a great jump is a perfect example of why we have so many low quality horses going around lower levels out there.

OK - just because I don't feel that I'm up to riding a horse with a jump like Coolman's, doesn't mean that I'm going to produce a "low quality horse". A horse doesn't have a to have a spectacular jump like that to be quality, or safe, for that matter. Like Denny said, one cannot judge a jump or rideability based on a single snapshot in time, but I have a Paint gelding who has a pretty darn nice jump with a nice snap to his hindend, and I can assure you that the average ammy wouldn't find his jump the easiest to stay with, either, and he's no Coolman.

If, and that's a BIG IF, I ever enter the breeding game, I would breed for the average ammy - something with BRAINS first, then a good, safe jump, and then good quality movement. When I'm in the market to buy a nice youngster again (and that's probably more likely to happen than me entering the breeding game), I would look for exactly the same qualities. There is a reason why the USEA has more people riding BN, Novice, and Training than going for the upper levels - because we're AMMYS. We want to have fun, and have a nice safe round, and hopefully be rewarded with a ribbon at the end of the day, and we don't have a ton of money to spend on a horse with a jump like Coolman's do play the game. So why not breed for the average ammy with the average budget? I'm not saying breed unsoundness or poor conformation, for Pete's sake! But there is absolutely nothing wrong with a good mover, with good brains, trainability, and a good, safe jump, and as far as I'm concerned, there aren't ENOUGH of these types of horses out there in a budget that fits me, the average adult rider who makes a lot of sacrifices to play this game.

Heck, if I had the talent, and the money, you bet I'd buy a nice horse - but I'd still be looking for rideability first, then a really honest (but doesn't have to be spectacular) jumper, and then a mover good enough to win over the judges in dressage - not so different than what I'm looking for now. So, I guess you can shoot me, since I'm toying around with the idea of breeding my nice, sane, good moving mare with a nice, safe, but not spectacular jump to a stallion with the same qualities, but hopefully a nicer mover ;^). And I don't think that the baby that will hopefully result will be a "low quality horse", either, and if that baby is ever for sale, it will hopefully go for a nice, reasonable price to another average ammy rider.

Off my soapbox, now.

purplnurpl
Jul. 3, 2007, 09:36 AM
There ya have it folks. Breeding for the market vs. breeding for the ULs is our issue.


So-a, not to change the subject or anything

what is going on with Formula One? When do we get to see him compete?

bornfreenowexpensive
Jul. 3, 2007, 11:52 AM
The other thing to consider is breeding for a Rolex horse and breeding for the ammy market are NOT mutually exclusive from one another. With today's technical courses, the horses MUST be rideable. A good mind and athletic horse is what most UL riders want. It is also what many ammy's want. You also want a horse that could succeed in more then one discipline because you really will not know if that young horse you bred wants to be an UL event horse until they have done a CCI* (at the earliest) and most of those horses will be at least 6 and more likely 7 or 8. That is the hard thing about producing an UL event horse....they need to have the right raw material (soundess, movement and jump)...AND they need to be put in the right hands for a number of years...and then they need the heart to want to do the sport.

denny
Jul. 3, 2007, 12:28 PM
In 1961 I had a summer job at The Green Mountain Stock Farm in Randolph, Vt, the famous "Lippitt" Morgan breeding farm.
Jack Esser was the farm manager, and he had previously been a black angus breeder as well. He was explaining to the kids that worked there some of his breeding theories, using baseball terms.
He said that it`s hard to hit a home run even when your goal is to hit a home run. He basically equated really top horses with home runs, and he said that our farm`s goal was to try for home runs, but that we should be glad if we got singles or doubles, basically just nice horses.
He explained this in rather technical terms which some geneticist on this board can amplify, something to the effect that everything in breeding "tries" to return to "average", or something like that.
So aim high, not just ok, was the gist of Jack`s message, and I`ve always remembered that.

bornfreenowexpensive
Jul. 3, 2007, 02:46 PM
So aim high, not just ok, was the gist of Jack`s message, and I`ve always remembered that.


Always good advice..for many things. I do like Coolman. I had also been thinking hard about breeding to his half brother Quite Easy (same sire). Both look like they have great hind ends over the fences. Guess their sire is producing some darn good jumpers!

JER
Jul. 3, 2007, 03:16 PM
He explained this in rather technical terms which some geneticist on this board can amplify, something to the effect that everything in breeding "tries" to return to "average", or something like that.

This is the statistical phenomenon known as 'reversion to the mean' or 'regression to the mean'. An extreme event -- in this case the production of a CCI**** horse -- is likely to be followed by a less extreme event -- in this case a more average horse.

In human genetics, studies have shown that 'geniuses' (this presumably did not include the Apple version) do not usually have children who are geniuses. Their children fall closer to the mean in terms of intelligence. That said, there are 6 Nobel Prize-winning fathers and sons and 1 Nobel Prize-winning mother-father-daughter (the Curies).

But eventing ability is truly multifactorial and it's also not about extremes. Event horses don't have to jump 7' puissance walls or do one-tempi changes or piaffe/passage or cover 100 miles. We're looking for good all-rounders, not one-dimensional freaks.

FairWeather
Jul. 3, 2007, 03:36 PM
Ok....I for one WANT a jump like Coolman's. I think that the comments on this board about NOT wanting to breed a great jump is a perfect example of why we have so many low quality horses going around lower levels out there.

Waaaaaiiiittt a minute. First, who is defining what a great jump is? We're seeing one moment in time, where a horse has its legs kicked out quite exaggerated. To me it seems like a freak of nature, but who is right, me or you? Saying that this is the reason that there are "so many low quality horses" out there is a bit of a leap, don't you think? Are there that many "low quality" horses out there? Who is defining what is "low quality"?
Aren't most people competing doing so in the lower levels?
Just because you are breeding for a team horse, does not mean that everybody else needs to, nor should they feel bad for doing so.

eventrider
Jul. 3, 2007, 10:35 PM
Kim,

I think we are on the same page here, without you knowing it. I have seen your horse go around and I think he is a fabulous jumper and a quality horse. If you could breed him 1000 times over we would have a base of great ammy horses!
Secondly, I have seen Coolman in action, other than a snapshot and he is a great jumper. However, this does not mean that his jump is any harder to sit than any other horse any of us are riding. You don't know till you sit on it. There is nothing saying anyone on here couldn't sit that jump necessarily.

Also, Fairweather.....I am not saying that if you don't breed to Coolman you are breeding a low quality horse. All I am saying is that breeding with the attitude that you don't want to produce the best you can because you are afraid you can't ride it is not beneficial for anyone. And yes, I do believe that there are low quality horses aout there eventing with Ammy's...I see them just about every weekend at events I go to. Are all of the low level horses "low quality"?...of course not and that is not what I said at all. The majority of them are nice safe horses. But there are the horses you see in warm up and go," I'm glad I am not sitting on that one." You cannot tell me you don't see low quality horses in the business you are in. I think people are reading into what I am posting here and taking things personally. Again, if you breed you should strive for the highest quality possible, whatever you deem that to be. And to me, even one rider on an unsafe horse is too many!

I may never ride on a team, or go around Rolex, but if I ever breed it will be stiving for the best I can produce. This is whether it totes a kid around Pony Club or wins Rolex. I want to strive to improve the sport and the horses we use. Period.
Again, I hope no one is misconstruing my point, or taking things personally because I am talking hypotheticals here.

FairWeather
Jul. 4, 2007, 08:10 AM
Also, Fairweather....."" All I am saying is that breeding with the attitude that you don't want to produce the best you can because you are afraid you can't ride it is not beneficial for anyone. And yes, I do believe that there are low quality horses aout there eventing with Ammy's...I see them just about every weekend at events I go to. Are all of the low level horses "low quality"?...of course not and that is not what I said at all. The majority of them are nice safe horses. But there are the horses you see in warm up and go," I'm glad I am not sitting on that one."


Again, I hope no one is misconstruing my point, or taking things personally because I am talking hypotheticals here.

Dang. Had an entire reply typed out and it got eaten! Boooo! The gist of my message was that I understand your points, however you are basing your thoughts on several things that I find to be creative leaps. First, of course there are low-quality horses out there, but again who is defining low-quality? I think I'm defining it as poor conformation and inability to stand up soundness-wise, and you might be defining it as something else. Second, you are pointing out that there are low-quality horses at events, but you seem to be assuming that these horses were purpose-bred for the sport, which in most cases is not true. I hope that you do realize your post read exactly this way: "I am not saying that if you don't breed to Coolman you are breeding a low quality horse." Not trying to snark here, just defending the fact that one persons definition of excellence does not necessarily mimic yours, or Dennys. FWIW, in seeing thousands and thousands of horses at the track, i've seen approximately 6 that I would consider reproducable--for any discipline. This based purely on conformation, and without passing my talents and brains requirements :D. The Beaulieu stallions ARE lovely, they are something I would consider breeding to in the future, (but man alive, can we do something about the website, eeek!) But i can certainly understand why someone would turn toward something else even if they were breeding for an UL horse if they did not want that specific style jump--it IS extreme, and who is to say extreme is excellent?
You cannot tell me you don't see low quality horses in the business you are in. I think people are reading into what I am posting here and taking things personally. Again, if you breed you should strive for the highest quality possible, whatever you deem that to be. And to me, even one rider on an unsafe horse is too many! Hee Hee I think "Business" is a stretch ;). I think i'm having a problem with the phrase "low quality" because 1) it hasn't been defined and 2) a "low quality" horse for eventing might make the perfect hunter (or whatever). Lets leave that term alone and use something like "unfortunate" or "inappropriate". Do I see these types? Everyday, of course. But these horses that i'm seeing weren't bred for eventing, so to use it in an example doesn't work necessarily well. I also see the effect of poor breeding decisions every day not only through bad conformation but bad brains. It becomes especially clear when you have to euthanize yet another one because it couldn't hold up to the stresses of its job.
I may never ride on a team, or go around Rolex, but if I ever breed it will be stiving for the best I can produce. This is whether it totes a kid around Pony Club or wins Rolex. I want to strive to improve the sport and the horses we use. Period. Amen! We are most certainly on the same page here, I simply objected to the idea that Coolman is the answer to all things Upper Level ;)

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl
Jul. 4, 2007, 02:58 PM
I suspect eventrider is using "low quality" to describe the perfectly sane horses with appalling jump form who make it over the jumps so the poor ammy thinks, "great ammy event horse" when all knowledgable bystanders are thinking "ack! Heaven help that rider when they miss - the horse dosn't have an ounce of talent to spare"

Sure , the horses she is referring to probably weren't purpose bred - how many event horses are? But since we're talking about breeding, it sure opens the door in my mind for folks to think, "well my horse is sane, and doesn't jump me out of the tack, so I'll breed to that sane packer down the road and we'll be golden."

I don't know anything about Coolman's sanity, and I'll stop projecting about eventriders thoughts now :lol:, but it seems reasonable to me to encourage people to aim for more talent than they think they'll need... Lord knows I appreciate every ounce of talent I can have looking after me!:winkgrin:

eventrider
Jul. 4, 2007, 06:17 PM
Jeannette, you took the thoughts out of my head! I guess I should define "low quality" as best I can......I am looking at safety and scope of the jump, and the ability to get out of tight spots when the rider misses or royally messes up (which we all will do eventually)! I am also NOT advocating only Coolman, nor saying if you don't breed to him you will get a gross horse...I am just saying in my opinion you should strive to breed the best you can with whatever mare and stallion you choose.
To me this means picking a suitable cross that will improve the two horses. This does not mean breeding all mares to the same stallion because he has an extravagant jump. The ONLY this I objected to on this thread was people stating that they were not looking for the best out there because they wanted to produce something for an ammy.....these SHOULD be the best out there. Fairweather....I am not saying that these horses at events were purpose bred at all. My first advanced horse was from Beulah Park, my second was from Hialeah, my third was Theodore O'Connor ( we all know his breeding). Now I have a horse bred to steeplechase but never got there! Everything else has been of the track. But....I want all of them to be safe scopey jumpers that are rideable and sane. And IF we are going to breed, which we don't HAVE to do, I want to produce the best thing possible, whatever cross that might be. Oh, and any sport that jumps needs to be safe be it hunters, eventing, ponies, etc.....whether they are downhill or choppy movers. I could be wrong but I think we are all on the same page, we just don't realize it yet.....

denny
Jul. 4, 2007, 06:49 PM
My father had a Latin saying that he used to haul out whenever my brother and I would argue, which was basically a perpetual state for many years.
It was "De gustibus non disputandum est", which means "There`s no disputing someone`s taste." If I like lobster and you like steak, we are both right, and neither is wrong.
Same thing with horses, and how they move and how they jump. I`ll get on a horse I`ve never sat on before, and it will be like putting on a comfortable pair of old gloves. Others I can ride for months, and it just isn`t "there" for me.
So ride and breed what feels right TO YOU. All this arguing about which is better or worse has easy answers. One is the PRIVATE answer. What feels right for YOU on a daily basis?
The other is a more PUBLIC answer. Whose horse can win in open competition?
The two answers may or may not be compatible with one another, so are you buying/breeding for yourself, or are you buying/breeding to sell on for a profit?
You may also find that as the years and decades slide by that your tastes change. The 16.3 "attack machine" that made your blood tingle at 25 may scare the holy living hell out of you 30 years later.

FairWeather
Jul. 4, 2007, 08:56 PM
I could be wrong but I think we are all on the same page, we just don't realize it yet.....Oh I think we most definitely are (and said so ;) ) but perhaps the delivery was lacking a little bit? ;) :D


Sure , the horses she is referring to probably weren't purpose bred - how many event horses are?Mostly my point, however well hidden ;)


but it seems reasonable to me to encourage people to aim for more talent than they think they'll need
Does anybody breed for mediocrity? Geeze, I hope not. Of course one persons version of excellence is different than another (said so eloquently by Denny previously). More often than not I think "you'd BREED that?" when hearing about peoples plans. My tastes are my own, albeit quite picky, perhaps not as picky as someone elses. Tis a funny cycle.

vineyridge
Jul. 4, 2007, 09:19 PM
I apologize in advance if this post doesn't make a lot sense, because my thoughts on these subjects aren't particularly well organized.

1) New heights at stadium shouldn't be an issue for old line TBs from English, French, and the the Antipodes breeding. In the US, before TBs went to precocious bullets that can't go over a mile comfortably, open hunters in AHSA shows were shown up to 4'9". Height over a course is not something that TBs have had trouble with historically.

2) I'll say it again and again, that the issue in all horse sports today is horses for courses. The designers and their clients determine what talents horses need to be successful over their courses. The new dressage style XC courses and stadium courses favor horses with WB type miinds and adjustability but, as I think most people would agree, are pushing safety limits to the hilt.

3)MUSCLE FIBERS-- Different horses have differing proportions of different types of muscle fibers and that makes a big difference in performance.
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/75/4/1758 Thoroughbreds seem to have a rather unique hybrid type of short twitch muscle that allows for performance both in sprints and at distance. Apparently the shift from aerobic muscle to anaerobic muscles is finished at about two minutes of exertional duration, and after that the animal is running anaerobically.

Showjumping is primarily done aerobically; according to Tufts, dressage and XC are anaerobic disciplines. Because of the peculiar type of hybrid muscle fiber that is found in TBs, they can do both short burst and longer term endurance like work where other breeds cannot. I would seriously doubt if a jumping bred line of WBs would ever have have XC capacity--it's bred to fatigue out after about 90 seconds of intense activity. For a horse to be able to do XC competently, it HAS to have the right kind of muscle fibers, and those fibers have to be bred for. You just aren't going to find XC horses that aren't primarily TBs--unless XC becomes incredibly short.

4) Conformation--some of the most productive sires have not had great conformation themselves. Wild Risk, a TB who was very successful at both racing and jump racing, and went to sire horses in the pedigrees of lots of very successful eventers, was club footed on his off fore and had rather straight shoulders, although that last does seem to correlate with better than average jumping ability. He's tail male to Biko and linebred in Custom Made. There are lots of factors to consider in breeding decisions for performance horses other than just conformation.

5) BLUP and scientific animal breeding. How many in the US horse industry are using this common computer technique for breeding decisions? If not, why not? It requires some organization, but the PHR, if used, could serve that function for US breeders.

Denny, because of the nature of XC, the TB is NOT going to be completely supplanted by WBs. WBs simply don't have the genetics to be all rounders, where their muscle fibers, heart, and wind are concerned. If you breed for SJ, you'll lose XC. It's as simple as that right now.

eventer_mi
Jul. 4, 2007, 10:46 PM
Secondly, I have seen Coolman in action, other than a snapshot and he is a great jumper. However, this does not mean that his jump is any harder to sit than any other horse any of us are riding.

Good point - I have had some people on this board comment on my Paint's jump, and how they wouldn't like to ride it because of what they saw with a snapshot in time (something about being difficult to ride) and the truth is, he's very, very easy to sit over a jump because he's so even. I would hope that Coolman's jump would be something like that.


I may never ride on a team, or go around Rolex, but if I ever breed it will be stiving for the best I can produce.


You're right, and I guess we're on the same page here, because I would never, ever breed my mare to the stallion down the road because his stud fee is cheap, or he's readily available. I would definitely strive to breed to the best I could afford, in an effort to produce the best foal, for me or for someone else to ride. I guess I just took offense at the "poor quality" statement, because it wasn't well-defined until now. I, like Fairweather, define poor quality as poor conformation, poor jump, poor mover, poor mind, etc. However, I would definitely breed my mare to what I think I would enjoy to ride, and that may or may not be Coolman (in fact, I've got my eyes on Fred for a possible boyfriend to my mare). So, I apologize at taking quick offense, and now I understand what you are trying to say, and I agree with you wholeheartedly.

sm
Jul. 6, 2007, 01:01 PM
3)MUSCLE FIBERS-- Different horses have differing proportions of different types of muscle fibers and that makes a big difference in performance. http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/75/4/1758 Thoroughbreds seem to have a rather unique hybrid type of short twitch muscle that allows for performance both in sprints and at distance. Apparently the shift from aerobic muscle to anaerobic muscles is finished at about two minutes of exertional duration, and after that the animal is running anaerobically. .

Sarah Ralston, who holds up quite well to academic scrutiny, puts the shift at less than three minutes, so this is very close. http://esc.rutgers.edu/publications/factsheets_nutrition/FS934.htm

Interestingly regarding quote below, Ralston puts dressage in long-term, aerobic performance. Work is primarily aerobic when lasts for more than one hour. Since Olympic riders warm up for Dressage for one hour before the 7-9 minute test, this qualifies. See her first para under the headline, "Feeding During Long-Term, Aerobic Performances (Endurance, Dressage, Horse Shows) " http://esc.rutgers.edu/publications/factsheets_nutrition/FS934.htm


Showjumping is primarily done aerobically; according to Tufts, dressage and XC are anaerobic disciplines. Because of the peculiar type of hybrid muscle fiber that is found in TBs, they can do both short burst and longer term endurance like work where other breeds cannot. I would seriously doubt if a jumping bred line of WBs would ever have have XC capacity--it's bred to fatigue out after about 90 seconds of intense activity. For a horse to be able to do XC competently, it HAS to have the right kind of muscle fibers, and those fibers have to be bred for. You just aren't going to find XC horses that aren't primarily TBs--unless XC becomes incredibly short.

Denny, because of the nature of XC, the TB is NOT going to be completely supplanted by WBs. WBs simply don't have the genetics to be all rounders, where their muscle fibers, heart, and wind are concerned. If you breed for SJ, you'll lose XC. It's as simple as that right now.

I agree with the paragraph immediately above, I believe in my heart of hearts the euro breeders already figured this one out. Hence the FEI course and points adjustments. As I already noted earlier in the last Olympics, only 2 horses went clean in SJ. One was Poggio II, USA-bred OTTB with Amy Tryon. I don't know that the other was even a WB, could have been another TB or Selle Francais. WBs did a bang up job in dressage however.

sm
Jul. 6, 2007, 01:17 PM
I forgot to mention, although I agree with vineyridge and the role of muscle fibers, Ralston's article is interesting in how diet enhances performance because Glucose and glycogen can be the major sources of energy used...

http://esc.rutgers.edu/publications/factsheets_nutrition/FS934.htm

vineyridge
Jul. 6, 2007, 03:01 PM
Looks like I got my aerobic (endurance) and anaerobic (sprint) backwards. Sorry about that.

There have been muscle fiber studies on Andalusians that show they, as well as Arabians, have a comparatively high proportion of Type I (endurance) muscle fibers. Thoroughbreds also have a fair proportion of Type I fibers.

http://www.tufts.edu/vet/sports/quarter.html This is a very interesting article on how energy and muscle works for those of us who aren't scientists.

TB or not TB?
Jul. 6, 2007, 06:26 PM
I just wanted to say that this is one of the most informative threads I've read in a good long while. Thanks to everyone who's participated and shared their knowledge!

Also, for the record, I'm still a TB gal through and through. I don't know what came over me. For shame! :no: Coolman does have a nice jump, though. ;)

vineyridge
Jul. 6, 2007, 08:22 PM
BTW, if any of you start googling the scientific literature online about muscle fibers, the nomenclature has changed since the Tufts article was published.

The muscle fibers that they call Type IIb are now called Type IIx in equines, and there is at least one hybrid Type that is Type IIxa. Some of the literature is confusing if you don't know that the names have changed.

vineyridge
Jul. 6, 2007, 10:31 PM
And of course, losing steeplechase and roads and tracks, which would favor horses with more Type I and Type IIa fibers, is one reason the WBs are such a threat these days.

TB or not TB?
Jul. 6, 2007, 10:53 PM
Some of the literature is confusing if you don't know that the names have changed.

Even though now I know the names have changed, it's still confusing. :D I see "sciency" words and my mind goes blank. Still I will muddle through it because I do find it fascinating.

Thank you Viney and sm for posting links!

GreekDressageQueen
Jul. 7, 2007, 11:38 AM
Yes - I too find this thread fascinating - thanks for all the info! However, I have a question...I understand the difference between the fibers and aerobic respiration, but if we continue to infuse TB blood into warmblood breeding then won't the resulting offspring have both fibers? Or are the two mutually exclusive?

Isn't the best event horse a mixture of both types of fibers? That is what I see in Teddy O'Conner - a mixture of several breeds (and fibers) to maximize performance.

vineyridge
Jul. 7, 2007, 01:00 PM
Yes - I too find this thread fascinating - thanks for all the info! However, I have a question...I understand the difference between the fibers and aerobic respiration, but if we continue to infuse TB blood into warmblood breeding then won't the resulting offspring have both fibers? Or are the two mutually exclusive?

Isn't the best event horse a mixture of both types of fibers? That is what I see in Teddy O'Conner - a mixture of several breeds (and fibers) to maximize performance.

The answer to the question about crossbreeding TBs and WBs would be yes, but...

There was a Hanoverian breeder who specialized in event horses. Horses from his farm have done extremely well in top level eventing recently. One of his is 31/32 TB, and another one is 7/8 TB. I think Andreas Dibowski is riding one internationally and Ingrid Klimke has another. His horses are branded Hanoverian because he started with a Hanoverian mare and always bred to Hanoverian approved TB stallions. But the fact on the ground is that his horses are mostly TB.

As Tom Reed says over on the Breeding Board, breeding a purpose bred Showjumper to a TB destroys the jump for at least one generation, and I'd argue that it would destroy the TBs' speciality of all roundness as well. The foal would not be as good as either of its parents in either direction. We can speculate that the reason is Because the TB muscle fibers are not ideally suited to anaerobic (speed and power) exercise, and only after the "changeover" during exercise to aerobic will the TB excel. So nobody breeding warmbloods wants FI hybrids, and the next breeding five years later will be aimed at a particular discipline--show jumping, eventing, or dressage. A showjumper will breed to a horse that has a higher proportion of anaerobic fibers, a dressage person will look for Type I fibers, and an eventer will breed back for TB fibers.

So over time, the TB has to be put back into the mix to keep the horses from getting heavy--either towards dressage/draft--or towards the pure showjumping heavy horse--which is very like a non-racing Quarter Horse.

There has been some scientific literature on the hybrid muscle fibers--the Type IIxa--and whether they can be converted into one or the other by work. According to one article I've read, they can be utilized either way in work, but not actually converted.

Given the things that I've read and the practicalities of horse breeding for specialities, the WBs will tend toward being scientifically bred for the fibers that allow them to specialize, so over time they won't all become a mixture where one is as good as another.

sm
Jul. 7, 2007, 02:37 PM
We can speculate that the reason is Because the TB muscle fibers are not ideally suited to anaerobic (speed and power) exercise... A showjumper will breed to a horse that has a higher proportion of anaerobic fibers...

Referencing Ralston again, her working definition of short-term, anaerobic performance is that in which the horse is asked to expend maximal anaerobic effort for LESS THAN THREE MINUTES. This includes thoroughbred and quarterhorse flat-racing and rodeo/gymkhana speed events (barrel racing, pole bending, calf roping, etc.).

So why aren't the TB muscle fibers, as well as powerful build of hindquarters, not ideally suited to anaerobic (speed and power) exercise? Mainly TBs need to get their racing (speed and power) done in UNDER TWO MINUTES. Longer distances a hair over two minutes, like the 1-1/2 mile Belmont leg of the Triple Crown. Horses there are still under Ralston's definition of "expending maximal effort less than three minutes."

Which would explain why the FEI high jump record is still held by an OTTB, Huaso.

vineyridge
Jul. 7, 2007, 02:40 PM
There is no doubt that a TB could theoretically compete on an equal basis with a purpose bred WB if it had a high preponderance of Type IIb muscle fibers, but why bother? You'd lose XC. I'd be more interested to see if an AQHA could be bred up to showjump, since they are already aimed in the right direction.

Also the proportion of the types of muscle makes a huge difference in quality of performance. So even though you're still running a TB anaerobically, it still won't be as efficient as a purpose bred WB for a speciality. There are, of course, exceptions to every rule, and Lord knows, TBs have proved over and over again that they have scope and power. It's just that the courses don't favor the TB strengths these days.

I sort of foresee a time when top level horses will all have biopsies done on their butt muscles, and only those with a favorable ratio of the different types for its discipline will be aimed to **** competitions.

sm
Jul. 7, 2007, 04:39 PM
There is no doubt that a TB could theoretically compete on an equal basis with a purpose bred WB if it had a high preponderance of Type IIb muscle fibers, but why bother? You'd lose XC.

Well, yes and no. The sheer numbers of TBs put on the ground each year vs the WBs on the ground --- there's plenty of TBs to do both/all and still be a TB. And then one could get bloodline/discipline specific after that. What we don't have plenty of database... Well, that's not entirely true either. Atleast there are no "unknowns" in the JC bloodlines and there's an already excellent reference for genetic soundness.

Hey, wait a minute. We already lost XC :) what's left is a joke.


It's just that the courses don't favor the TB strengths these days.

Bring it on, the WBs are still ending up 3/4 or more TB. So glad to know they think that's "winning." And dumbing down the courses is "winning." It's actually funny if you think about it.


I'd be more interested to see if an AQHA could be bred up to showjump, since they are already aimed in the right direction.

I'd like that too. And the QHs could do completely nicely in dressage and be extremely competitive at the regional level, I'd really like to see that happen. The sheer massive political power/strength of the AQHA doing business with the FEI: it's a good thing.

TB or not TB?
Jul. 7, 2007, 04:51 PM
Hey, wait a minute. We already lost XC :) what's left is a joke.

Bring it on, the WBs are still ending up 3/4 or more TB. So glad to know they think that's "winning." And dumbing down the courses is "winning." It's actually funny if you think about it.

I like you! :yes::D

GreekDressageQueen
Jul. 7, 2007, 05:02 PM
Given the things that I've read and the practicalities of horse breeding for specialities, the WBs will tend toward being scientifically bred for the fibers that allow them to specialize, so over time they won't all become a mixture where one is as good as another.

Thank you so much for this information! I haven't been this captivated or learned something this important in a long time. This is the reason why I started visiting the COTH forums. Is there anywhere I can read up on this info - websites, books, other forums?

I only breed horses for myself but I have an Irish Draught/TB mare - first generation F1 as you stated above. She was a fantastic jumper - she reached Grade B status in England before I bought her. However, she was still too heavy (drafty) and tired quickly. I bred her to a TB - Mystic Replica (by Babamist) to get an event horse. My gelding (second generation) is still heavy (lots of bone and muscling) - more heavy than you would imagine for a F2 generation, but he NEVER tires. Hardly breaks a sweat either. He is equally talented as a dressage horse due to his natural balance and collection and can go for miles and miles out in the field. I was doing a horse trials clinic once and we were on course for at least 6 hours. He was the only horse that finished dry and ready to do the whole thing again. My back and his back were quite sore the next day, but that was it.

So - according to your theory - since I bred my mare back to a TB I "specialized" for TB fibers - right? Does his outward appearance - heavy bone and muscling - affect the type of fibers? Or in scientific words - does the phenotype (appearance of the horse on the outside) exhibit what fibers the horse possesses genetically? Can you tell by just looking at the horse?

Also, when buying a dressage horse let's say - you don't want to see a TB in the first line of generation, but in the second or third. And if you are buying a show-jumper or eventer - you must have a TB in the first few generations?

arnika
Jul. 7, 2007, 06:00 PM
by sm:
And the QHs could do completely nicely in dressage and be extremely competitive at the regional level, I'd really like to see that happen. The sheer massive political power/strength of the AQHA doing business with the FEI: it's a good thing.

You know, I had never thought of it that way but perhaps the thought of the FEI having to deal with a large non-european organization has some bearing on their not allowing QHs to be bred/approved in the registries(after all, the JC doesn't worry or care about what is done with TBs that are not bred for racing so the FEI do not have to deal with them). I've always been under the impression that it has to do with conformation and HYPP issues. Of course, since they usually judge by the individual animal and not the whole breed I have wondered why the registries were so deadset against QHs.

Drvmb1ggl3
Jul. 7, 2007, 06:42 PM
Bring it on, the WBs are still ending up 3/4 or more TB. So glad to know they think that's "winning." And dumbing down the courses is "winning." It's actually funny if you think about it.


The sporthorses that excelled at the upper end of eventing in the past are no different than those now. They were generally not TBs, but with copious amounts of blood, 75% or better.
It is no different now than it was then, the recipe is more or less the same, the only difference is you are more likely to see instances now where the blood is not on top, which was invariably how it was done in the past.

Why the underlying hatred in your posts towards anything non-TB, esp WBs? It's practically seething through the monitor.
Horse sports are not breed specific, all that matters is that you breed a good one, the breed itself is irrelevant.

vineyridge
Jul. 7, 2007, 10:33 PM
Just a couple more thoughts which have been percolating for a while.

I've read somewhere, and given what we are learning about muscles it makes good sense, that TBs with HIGH dosage indexes will probably make better show jumpers than those with lower or middle ones. This is because dosage shows what the sprint tendency in a particular horse's breeding is likely to be, going back some four generations. Now there are basically two types of sprinting TBs--the ones that look like QHs, and the ones that don't. Mumtaz Mahal, who was one of the most influential TB mares of all time, was known as the "Flying Filly" because she was so danged fast over 6f, but she didn't look anything like a QH. (There's a very nice portrait of her in racing trim on the TB Heritage site here:
http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/MumtazMahal.htm She was not bred for stamina, and didn't have any. Many of her descendants also lacked stamina, and the success of her lines may be why short sprints predominate so much today. OTOH, her descendants are the TB lines that so many of us look for in sporthorses. So jumping ability does seem to correlate with sprinting where she and her descendants are concerned and not to correlate necessarily with appearance.

The short coupled, short backed QH type sprinting TBs with huge engines ought to be able to jump prodigiously, but the fact is that they don't seem to have been the type that's been successful. It may be that there is some disadvantage in having a TB mix of muscles fibers on a very heavy body if showjumping is the goal.

There's another body of TBs that jump great heights and run long distances and those are the timber horses. Their races are very long, especially in France, and the jumps are taken at speed and are up to 5 feet or more. These horses typically have very LOW dosage indexes, which are sometimes even negative and demonstrate four generations of breeding for stamina. I personally believe that timber horses, which, alas, in both the US and UK are usually geldings, are the basis for good event horses. In France, which is the epicenter of chasing these days, and in the UK, unlike the US, a horse doesn't have to be pure bred TB to compete in the big chases. Selle Francais have won the major French timber race--their equivalent of the British Grand National at Aintree and something like 3 1/2 to 4 miles long--quite often in the past ten or twenty years. The French seem to be onto something with the modern Selle Francais, which can do damn near anything except maybe dressage, and my guess is that temperamentally they aren't well suited to dressage.

What does this have to do with anything? Well, I'm becoming more enamored daily of the French lines of stamina/jumping TBs, and today, oddly enough, many, many French pedigrees will show Northern Dancer tail male, and Mill Reef (Never Bend), both North American horses. Those lines are still here, but they have to be diligently searched for among the refuse of all the sprinter lines, like Mr. P, if you're looking for both power and endurance. If you put a Northern Dancer on top of a very low dosage mare from one of the Mumtaz Mahal lines or the French lines (Dollar, Ksar, etc), you will very likely end up with a horse that can both jump and go distance. And there are the other Mumtaz Mahal lines that we know work for us like Nasrullah and Royal Charger and Mahmoud, etc, even though they are far back. It's possible to use linebreeding to concentrate heritable traits, and there is a newish tool out there for animal breeders called BLUP (google it) It's a continuously moving index of heritable characteristics in sires, dams and offspring, and is almost universally used in Western European sport horse breeding.

vineyridge
Jul. 7, 2007, 10:41 PM
The easiest way to get into this stuff (God bless the Internet) is to just start googling and find the abstracts and actual scientific studies of current research.

BTW, sm, Sarah Ralston is a member of CoTH and posts when Rutgers is looking for homes for their experimental horses.

Drvmb1ggl3
Jul. 8, 2007, 01:18 AM
Viney, the race you refer to is the Grande Steeple-chase de Paris (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqK0V2ZLtqI) and the horse that won it this year is a tail male g-grandson of Mr P, with ND on the bottom.
Go figure.

PS, there is no such thing as Timber racing in Europe, just chasing and hurdling, with the occasional X-country race (http://play.www.atr.servecast.net/ppv/atr/frameset.asp?va=PUN_2007_04_26_02_1450).

vineyridge
Jul. 8, 2007, 08:44 AM
I think the reason event horses usually have some non-TB in their breeding is for bone and trainability. But anything that is less than 3/4, and ideally more, is probably not going to do as well. Exceptions are always out there, naturally.

Drum, as you know, in the US, we distinguish between timber horses and hurdlers. As you say, in Europe they have chasers and hurdlers. Just on theory, hurdlers would be a less attractive choice than timber horses because their jump is much different. Whether that's a training difference or something else is another question. In Europe, they breed for jump racing, and I don't know if they breed for the distinction . Here most jump racers are just a by product of flat racing. In France, there are far more intact chasers than in the UK/Ireland or here, so theoretically it should be easier to find French lines of TBs that already have "the jump".

The Hanoverians seem to have decided that jumping ability is the most heritable quality that a parent can pass on--in the neighborhood of a 40% likelihood. There's an interesting article on the AHA website about that.

Anyone who wants to look into muscle fibers will find this abstract very interesting.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1467936

And this one is just plain wonderful:
http://www.uco.es/grupos/cyted/RIVERO4_505_512.pdf

This one on lactate production is worth reading:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1764192

Here's a Dutch study of their warmbloods that is complete and very interesting:
http://www.jhc.org/cgi/content/full/51/9/1207

Drvmb1ggl3
Jul. 8, 2007, 11:15 AM
The "jump", as you call it, isn't expected to come from the top side, as most NH stallions never saw a jump in their lives, being by and large horses that were fair enough middle distance horses (10-14f), but not good enough or sexy enough breeding for flat racing, or they are accomplished stayers (14f+). The occasional French entire that one sees is almost invariably a hurdler (a la Roselier).
The philosophy is that any horse can be taught to hurdle, the jumps are fairly small, only 3f 6in. The most important thing for a hurdler is speed, as the races are generally shorter, only 2m to 2½m. For chasing you do need a horse with some jumping ability, but it doesn't have to be pretty, just effective enough to stay on their feet and efficient enough to not lose ground or waste energy. Once again, the fences aren't huge, around 4'6" sometimes up to 5', so you would expect that a lot of TBs would jump that without falling on top of themselves, as would most any sporthorse or WB, but the sporthorse won't have the stamina and closing speed you'd want (unless it's one of those French AQPS or SFs, that are almost all TB anyway). For example, watch some races with the reigning king in chasing these days, Kauto Star, he can be a very dodgy jumper. Not the kind of horse I would take into a ring for a round of showjumping, he'd have poles down all over. But he stays on his feet when racing, enough to rack up over $3.5m in earnings.

So NH breeders are not breeding for a jump in the same way that sporthorse breeders do with showjumpers, who are a lot more scientific in their approach. I believe NH bred TBs are a great source for breeding eventers (where do you think all those ISHs, SHSGB, NZSHs come from?), but not so much for showjumpers.

Btw, Timber racing is a different kettle of fish, being a uniquely American sport. There is no timber racing in Europe. Of all the jump racing codes that is the one where a horse jumps the most like a showjumper.

Loki
Jul. 8, 2007, 10:18 PM
I had a lovely Quidame gelding that I showed for a client in the jumpers. Same walk like a panther and scopey scopey for a 16 h horse. Even for showjumpers I am loving the Warmblood TB crosses. I have 5 Irish Tb cross gedings in my barn now that are fantastic. Lots of power with a little blood!

frugalannie
Jul. 9, 2007, 07:32 AM
Great discussion, but I must have missed something. What does NH stand for?

denny
Jul. 9, 2007, 07:56 AM
This whole process is like that old story, "Stone Soup", where you put in a little bit of this, then a little bit of that, and see how it tastes, adding various ingredients until you get it just right.
The problem, of course, is that doing the mix and match thing with horses takes so long, and is further skewed by the expertise, or lack thereof, of the riders/trainers who bring on the foals.
But it`s a fascinating exercise to those who like the whole breeding part of the horse world.
Pure competitors, by and large, at least most of the ones here in America I ask about their horse`s pedigree, seem not to know or care what they sit on as long as it wins, and until that changes, I don`t think we`ll have as much success as the Irish, the Germans, the Dutch, the French, etc, who seem to be more "up on the breeding thing."
I also think even strong disagreement about what mix and match pedigree ingredients make the right "soup" is a good thing. That`s what open competition out there at the events is designed to test.

Badger
Jul. 9, 2007, 09:25 AM
Great discussion, but I must have missed something. What does NH stand for?

NH is for National Hunt, as in jump racers instead of flat racers.

Thanks for posting the link to the TB Heritage site, Vineyridge, to the TB jumping sires pages. I played around there this weekend. I was surprised to find out that every single horse in our 8-horse barn, from OTTB to draft-crosses to warmblood crosses, goes back tail-male to the Darley Arabian.

You also mentioned the Never Bend line. I picked up an OTTB a couple years ago who is by Loup Sauvage (3yo of the year in France and aged horse of Europe as a 4yo), that is tail male to Never Bend via Riverman. He's now standing at an Irish stud and marketed to point-to-pointers: "Riverman has proven himself across all levels and his jumping success from the stock he sired in France makes Loup Sauvage a great source to put speed into some older jumping families" (http://www.scarvagh.com/horses/stallions/loup%5Fsauvage/)

My boy raced unsuccessfully in Iowa, but is working out as a hunt and event horse: http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php?query_type=check&search_bar=horse&h=artyme&g=5&inbred=Standard&x2=n

vineyridge
Jul. 9, 2007, 10:41 AM
There's no doubt in my mind that Americans could breed horses far more scientifically than we are now for the various disciplines.

Someone should fund a study that would do deep biopsies of the two gluteus muscles of such retired horses as Custom Made and Gilt Edge and active ones like Winsome Adante and Windfall, run monoclonal antibody counts on the individual muscle fibers and use the results to evaluate the **** potential of oncoming event horses. Maybe it could be done at the end of Rolex one year, and all the active horses would give a muscle sample.

One of the things that I think is fascinating is that conditioning probably can't change the types of muscle fibers but it can increase the number of mitochondria, which do the actual conversion to usable energy.

And we could be BLUPing like all the WB registries are doing. BLUP stands for something like Baseline Linear Updated Progression and is a computerized breeding package that starts with index numbers and constantly updates them as the animals and their descendants compete.

Until we get an association devoted to breeding competitive AMERICAN horses for all disciplines, we're going to be reliant on the European registries that do do advanced breeding methodologies (and change the disciplines to favor their horses. ;))

There's a well respected sporthorse breeding authority who is of the opinion that if one were to trace back the pedigrees of all the WB lines that are still active, one would find a TB tail male in every one.

sm
Jul. 9, 2007, 01:33 PM
The short coupled, short backed QH type sprinting TBs with huge engines ought to be able to jump prodigiously, but the fact is that they don't seem to have been the type that's been successful. It may be that there is some disadvantage in having a TB mix of muscles fibers on a very heavy body if showjumping is the goal.

Short back just seems lacking in aerodynamics... problematic way before we get to the part about muscle fibers. Medium back fine, and I consider many sprinters to have medium backs. Maybe I should think about this and get the right words together.

Vineyridge, am looking forward to reading your linked articles on #101. Amazing stuff to read, I have some catching up to do.

vineyridge
Jul. 9, 2007, 04:07 PM
Just found this abstract of a French study using gallop racers and show jumpers. But since it's French, we don't know if the gallop racers were thoroughbreds or Other than Pure Blood (AQPS). The difference in fast fibers between the gallop racers and the show jumpers is a bit significant, but the racers actually have MORE. The study does show a significant difference in performance capability, though.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=10659270&dopt=Abstract

GreekDressageQueen
Jul. 9, 2007, 05:22 PM
One of the things that I think is fascinating is that conditioning probably can't change the types of muscle fibers but it can increase the number of mitochondria, which do the actual conversion to usable energy.

Isn't mitochondria the female inherited DNA? With all this talk of stallions and male lines, it seems the key is still in the mare. Didn't researchers find in the "Secretariat broodmare phenomena" that speed was passed down through his daughters?

vineyridge
Jul. 10, 2007, 09:58 AM
The mtDNA does come from through the tail female (bottom pedigree) line. That's why I referenced Mumtaz Mahal. If you can find a mare tail female to Lady Josephine, you've really got something. There's another TB mare, about 1850, that should be on everyone's watch list, and that's the British Pocahontas. There's a great American Pocahontas, too, but the British one was superlative.

We, sporthorse people, do NOT put enough emphasis on mare lines, but that's mostly because it's so much harder to find performance records on unraced mares. The Secretariat effect is probably from an X chromosome sex-linked characteristic like the postulated "large heart" gene.

Since mares don't produce the get quantity of performance tested stallions, getting a great performance mare to reproduce herself is more of a crapshoot. So you'd go to her full and half siblings and look at their records, both in sport and in the breeding shed. That's one reason why the TB sales catalogs focus so heavily on the four generations of dams. :yes:

sm
Jul. 10, 2007, 10:52 AM
There's no doubt in my mind that Americans could breed horses far more scientifically than we are now for the various disciplines.

Someone should fund a study....

Maybe the USEA committee that is working on the FEH (Future Event Horse) can take this idea to PHR/USEF. Right now the FEH specs are virtually the same as the Dressage Sport Horse requirements, although that is expected to change at some point. The federal gov’t funds programs by issuing grants…

Also helpful to document conformation with video. This isn’t a beauty contest regarding conformation, it would be nice to know the conformation and movement on horses that actually win. Interesting to see what marketing stereotypes would be broken: once again, separating fact from marketing hype.


Until we get an association devoted to breeding competitive AMERICAN horses for all disciplines, we're going to be reliant on the European registries that do do advanced breeding methodologies (and change the disciplines to favor their horses. ;))


Is PHR working on anything remotely like this? Not that USEA couldn't do it for FEH alone. Obviously better if all sporthorse markets are done at once by USEF/PHR, but at least USEA could get the blessings and support of USEF/PHR and start somewhere...

sm
Jul. 10, 2007, 11:13 AM
do deep biopsies of the two gluteus muscles of such retired horses as Custom Made and Gilt Edge and active ones like Winsome Adante and Windfall, run monoclonal antibody counts on the individual muscle fibers and use the results to evaluate the **** potential of oncoming event horses. Maybe it could be done at the end of Rolex one year, and all the active horses would give a muscle sample.

How invasive is this procedure? What's the recovery time...

vineyridge
Jul. 10, 2007, 05:50 PM
How invasive is this procedure? What's the recovery time...

Darned if I know. There does seem to be an internationally accepted protocol for studies of this kind, which is always under review and modification as more is learned.

I'm thinking if the psysiologists can determine what they need to know from the fibers of rat diaphragms, it can't take too much to count in horses. It's probably some sort of hollow needle jab all the way to the sacral arch in the pelvis. Just guessing, though. A scientist type might actually know. :)

denny
Jul. 10, 2007, 06:21 PM
In terms of adding raw jumping ability to the event horse mix, it`s interesting to note that 2 days ago Beezie Madden and Authentic won the Grand Prix of Aachen, which to a show jumper is like one of us winning Badminton.
Authentic is a grandson of Quidam de Revel, and Beaulieu`s Coolman, the stallion discussed earlier here,(which started this long thread) is a son of Quidam de Revel.
In the 2006 WBFSH rankings of 2335 grand prix jumpers, Authentic was ranked second, and another Quidam de Revel offspring, Quibell, was ranked 3rd.
I suspect that sheer, raw jumping talent will be increasingly critical in the event horse of the future if this new short format continues, and I don`t really see how to stop that trend.

sm
Jul. 10, 2007, 06:45 PM
Authentic is a grandson of Quidam de Revel, and Beaulieu`s Coolman, the stallion discussed earlier here,(which started this long thread) is a son of Quidam de Revel.

And here's Authentic's blood, with a heavy emphasis on the Selle Francais http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/authentic3


I suspect that sheer, raw jumping talent will be increasingly critical in the event horse of the future if this new short format continues, and I don`t really see how to stop that trend.

The french are working around the short format and restructured it, can we pick up on that here under the auspices of USEA http://www.aso-equitation.com/2007/us/complet.html ? Maybe not the entire USEA if it's too dicey to experiment with -- a TB breed org could hold the event under auspices of USEA (of course event would be open to all registries).

The french event is sponsored by R.I.D.E. (Rencontres Internationales des Disciplines Equestres) http://www.aso-equitation.com/2007/us/organisation.html

My source on this: see another thread here called, "French Eventing - A New Format?"

Sarah Ralston
Jul. 13, 2007, 02:36 PM
[QUOTE=sm;2545051]Sarah Ralston, who holds up quite well to academic scrutiny, puts the shift at less than three minutes, so this is very close. http://esc.rutgers.edu/publications/factsheets_nutrition/FS934.htm

Interestingly regarding quote below, Ralston puts dressage in long-term, aerobic performance. Work is primarily aerobic when lasts for more than one hour. Since Olympic riders warm up for Dressage for one hour before the 7-9 minute test, this qualifies. See her first para under the headline, "Feeding During Long-Term, Aerobic Performances (Endurance, Dressage, Horse Shows) " http://esc.rutgers.edu/publications/factsheets_nutrition/FS934.htm

I wrote that a long time ago. I have since come to appreciate that especially many of the Grand Prix movements in Dressage are probably executed anaerobically. But the lower level dressage horses are definitely, IMHO, "endurance" candidates!
I really wish the dressage community would fund research like is frequently done at the 3-day events (Dr. Carey Williams has done studies the past two years at the Jersey Fresh). Event horses are, to my mind, the real elite, needing both aerobic endurance and anaerobic speed/power for those awesome jumps! To get at the aerobic/Anaerobic question would be easy with the use of the on-board heart rate monitors whose records can be downloaded...