TB Bloodlines apology

[vineyridge]

I've spent a happy Saturday doing bloodlines research, and I need to apologize about something that I've learned I have had the wrong opinion about and posted it here.

Northern Dancer is a fantastic sireline for sporthorses--but he needs to be tail male for it to work right, and only some of his sons shine for us. If he's anywhere else but the absolutely top line on a pedigree, he doesn't seem to be as useful. He was truly a sire of sires.

[vineyridge]

Well, if what I've learned from researching his European descendants is something to go by, he would need to be where you have Native Dancer. That's the tail male line. I've been doing the research on French Steeplechasers, and the last three pure TBs to win the big French timber chase are Northern Dancer tail male. That's a very long race with very big fences and a very big payoff.

I know the WB people don't think much of chasers for jumpers, but the jump is there and, I would argue, just needs to be developed.

[ThirdCharm]

I have a stallion who has Northern Dancer in the tail-male line (sire's sire's sire) and he is an awesome jumper, so I won't argue with ya!

Jennifer

[cyriz's mom]

Sea Accounts has ND in the tail male through Danzig and in the mare line through Nijinsky II (both great ND sons). And he can definitely jump.

I think some of the problem with ND can be size...a lot of the offspring were small. Since my guy is 16.3, he got size from someone else!

[vineyridge]

Tail Male means an unbroken line of Y chromosomes from son to father to grandfather and back through time.. It's always the very top line of any given pedigree. So if you have a male with the Eclipse sire line, your horse probably has the Eclipse Y chromosome, barring mutation.

Tail Female means an unbroken line of X chromosomes and mitochondria from dam to granddam back through time, and it is on the very bottom line of any given pedigree. Tail Female is usually considered more important than Tail Male, simply because all horses have an X chromosome from their mothers, while only males have a Y from their fathers.

We know more, though, about great sires because of the number of their descendants, so heritable traits are more likely to be identified when the quantity is greater.

But when you get a really great mare like Mumtaz Mahal, if she's bottom line on your horse you can be sure you have something really, really special.

Right now, we don't know if "the Jump" is inherited through the male or female line or both. Personally, I'm betting on both based on my TB research, but the WB people that I've seen talk about it seem to think it's more a male line thing.

[AdAblurr02]

Nice to have Northern Dancer tail male, and even nicer to have him up close in the pedigree!

http://www.pedigreequery.com/ad+ablurr

BTW, if anybody here comes across this guy's full brother, a big stunning chestnut named Somfas Pleasure - we bred him, sold him to a pro, and he was resold. Lost track of the horse, and would LOVE to know he's doing OK. Supposedly in California, but cannot confirm that.

Oh, and the family does produce JUMPERS :)

[Janet]

Tail Female means an unbroken line of X chromosomes and mitochondria from dam to granddam back through time, and it is on the very bottom line of any given pedigree. Tail Female is usually considered more important than Tail Male, simply because all horses have an X chromosome from their mothers, while only males have a Y from their fathers. Not quite. The mitochondria traces back in an unbroken line through the dam line. But you can't tell where the X chromasome came from. The X chromasome that a horse gets from its dam COULD be the one from the dam's dam. But it could equally well be the one form the damsire. Equal probability.

[EqTrainer]

Tee hee, that's no secret :)

[BelladonnaLily]

Very cool, my OTTB mare AND my yearling filly (out of my Buckpasser tail male mare) have Northern Dancer as a tail male. Learn something new every day :) I didn't recognize any tail females but I didn't think I would...I know so little about TB bloodlines.

[CuriosoJorge]

There are a gazillion Thoroughbreds with Northern Dancer as the tail male, particularly in Europe where if anything his bloodline is even more popular than it is here.

I'm not sure it's really a reliable indicator of sporthorse ability.

[vineyridge]

Yes, there are a gazillon TBs out there with Northern Dancer tail male, but I had earlier made an observation that I personally wouldn't look to him for sporthorses. Now, while he wouldn't necessarily be a first choice, he's not on a don't buy list. (Actually I do have a 2 yo who is tail male through Vice Regent, and of all the ND sons, he would not be my first choice for sport.)

[Silly Mommy]

That is why I bought this mare almost soley based on her pedigree.

I believe I just sold her, but I have 2 exceptional fillies out of her.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/off+track+firstcat

[Peggy]

Just to make sure I have this right--tail male doesn't have to be at the top of a certain generation, just on the top line? So, this (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/aldebaran13) would count?

And a question for Silly Mommy--I know you like the Vice Regents, but in looking at your mare's pedigree (tho not ND thru Vice Regent), I notice there's Secretariat on the bottom. Is this part of what you like as well (if you look at my horse's pedigree above, you'll see where that question comes from--and, yes, he can jump).

[CuriosoJorge]

SM, I would have bought that mare on pedigree, too, but it would have been in spite of the Danzig, not because of it. ;) Everything else, I love.

[LockeMeadows]

(Actually I do have a 2 yo who is tail male through Vice Regent, and of all the ND sons, he would not be my first choice for sport.)

Jake's sire is Vice Regent and boy can he jump. I've been pushing his owner to move up to the 3'6"s, as he's schooling 4' courses at home. He can lope the lines and is very round over the bigger fences. He also gets good ribbons in the model. I wish I had a barn full of these horses. They are smart, easy, and can handle the pressure of being on the road.

[Silly Mommy]

I agree CJ - the Danzig caused me to pause, but the rest.....

Now if she had Halo on the bottom, I would have run!:lol::lol::lol:

This mare is the sweetest thing, and her fillies are really fabulous -

the yearling -

http://wolfdenfarm.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/garyrl.jpg.w560h448.jpg

and this year's baby - her full sister -

http://members.tripod.com/sabrawolf_1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/lunasxwks.jpg.w560h448.jpg

and Peggy - it wasn't "just" the Secretarait, but the Tamerette (look up her progeny) who is by Tim Tam, Big Spruc (Steeplechacer), Dr. Fager, What Luck, and just about everything there...

[vineyridge]

SM, I'd have bought her too, just on the pedigree. From the photo she looks as if she is a beautiful mover.

Her Tail Female line is pretty amazing even very far back. She goes back to Maggie B B, and that's impressive. The females have been USA horses since 1841. I've been doing some poking around with really old lines in jumping horses (some of the Twist lines), and she's there through her son Panique. Maggie BB's granddam Magnolia is the foundation for family 4-m, and was once owned by Henry Clay of Lexington, KY.

Take a look at all the famous jumping lines that stem from Family 4. It's pretty amazing.
http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricDams/EngFoundationMares/Family4/Family4.html

[Equilibrium]

Well, if what I've learned from researching his European descendants is something to go by, he would need to be where you have Native Dancer. That's the tail male line. I've been doing the research on French Steeplechasers, and the last three pure TBs to win the big French timber chase are Northern Dancer tail male. That's a very long race with very big fences and a very big payoff.

I know the WB people don't think much of chasers for jumpers, but the jump is there and, I would argue, just needs to be developed.


Really just wanted to quote the last line of this message, but I'm not that bright!

I have a NH TB mare and recently posted her yearling filly on the Sporthorse board for a critique. Most people couldn't believe her size and substance for a yearling.

Yes the jump needs to be worked on, but if you watch chasing day in and day out, hard not to admire that you need to be able to jump no matter what. And even more amazing when they leave 3 strides out before a 4ft fence and never touch the brush. And brush is a nice way to describe sticks that will tear up your legs.

Oddly enough, my mare is void of all ND as most of the old NH horses were. Now we have a big infusion of ND based stallions covering NH mares, mostly to add speed to the pedigree. My mare is bred exactly the same as the 2006 English Grand National winner, Numbersixvalverde. You have to be able to jump to win that race no matter what anyone says.

Thanks for you research Viney.

Terri

[vineyridge]

TB Female Families

Back a very long time ago--I can't remember if it was the 1890's or the 1920's--there was a huge interest in the origins of the thoroughbred and what made them tick. Lots of things happened then. A man called Bruce Lowe created the concept of foundation mares and female families. He took all the winners of classic races from the beginning of records, looked at their pedigrees, added up all the winning tail female lines, and established a large number of different families based on what he thought were unique mares in the beginning. Family 1 had the most classic winners, and so forth, down to family 27 or so. (Turns out the early pedigrees aren't exactly correct, and some of the mares that he put as separate families may not have been. Reason we know this is because of mitochondrial DNA analysis, since the mitochondria pass unchanged from mother to daughter.)

The concept of female families has been used ever since, but more families have been defined . There's a colonial group of families, a polish one, a japanese one, a US one, even a half-bred one. More families have been added, and some of the older ones have been subdivided. In family 5, for instance, the family is subdivided from 5 to 5j.
http://bloodlines.net/TB/Families/FamilyNumbers.htm

The original theory was that great mares would reproduce themselves, and even if their daughters didn't perform, if they came from great mares who produced great performers, the daughter's offspring would be more likely to perform. Scientifically this has been given a basis in fact, since the mitochondria are the engines of the cells, where energy is produced, and the mitochondria come only from the dam.

It seems to me that if what one is looking for is "the jump", and if a particular female family produces a very large number of horses, both male and female, with the reputation of producing jumpers through its history (such as family 4) then knowing that would help in selecting a sire to complement that family based on what worked in the past. Perhaps using both a sire (female family 4) and a female family 4 dam would enhance the chance of reproducing the jump. Man O' War's dam, Mahubah was female family 4 top and bottom, and Man O' War is known to have produced many horses that are known for their jump.

Or you could look at the sires that we know produce jumpers or have jumped themselves, and find out what female families are involved. Then you could try putting the sire line back to that female family.

[sophab]

This is my sweet old mare...
http://www.pedigreequery.com/say+yes+first
She tail females to La Troienne, so that is family line 1? Her daughter drops La Troienne out of the 5 gen pedigree, but she would still stay in family line 1? http://www.pedigreequery.com/sweetsofistication
I don't pretend to know much about TB bloodlines...but I know they are nice horses. :)

[Sonic Boom]

Yes, there are a gazillon TBs out there with Northern Dancer tail male, but I had earlier made an observation that I personally wouldn't look to him for sporthorses. Now, while he wouldn't necessarily be a first choice, he's not on a don't buy list. (Actually I do have a 2 yo who is tail male through Vice Regent, and of all the ND sons, he would not be my first choice for sport.)

viney, I am curious, why would Vice Regent offspring not be your first choice for sport? I've got a 6yo OTTB by Deputy Minister, so he's my horse's grandsire. I don't actually know a lot about what DM and Vice Regent have produced for sport horses, so I'm curious.

FYI, my horse is athletic and friendly, but rather hot.

Thanks!

[denny]

Someone who is a genetics expert needs to chime in here about differentiating between genotype and phenotype.
I`ve had hundreds of tbs over the last 50 years, and of every bloodline you can think of. Some were spectacular jumpers, some ok, some were duds. Some were dead calm, some were too hot to handle.
It`s the INDIVIDUAL horse that either gets it done against all comers, or doesn`t get it done. Get a copy of the Blood Horse Stallion Register, and you`ll see the same horses in 80% of the pedigrees, No. Dancer, Mr P., Storm Cat, Bold Ruler, and in back of all of them, the 3 main sons of Nearco, Nasrullah, Nearctic, and Royal Charger.
Since so many horses all have the same bloodlines, in theory they all should have similar abilities, but they sure don`t, not in real life, down in the arena.
3 TBS out of 100 win one stakes race, so although pedigree is important in racing, too, it`s still the individual horse. How does it move, how agile and quick is it, how sound, how scopey over free jumps, and how careful, all these things are right up there with pedigree, and if we want good ones, we need to learn how to assess sheer athleticism, and then hope that athletic prowess is hitched to a good brain.
At least that`s what I`ve found, in sifting through hundreds of them.

[Janet]

To reinforce Denny's point, even full siblings (identical pedigree) can be VERY different in abilitry.

[drgfly75]

But when you get a really great mare like Mumtaz Mahal, if she's bottom line on your horse you can be sure you have something really, really special.

Vineyridge, I do not know much about this mare, after reading your post I went back and looked at my guy's lines. He has Mumtaz Mahal on the Dam's top....does that count? Sorry for my questions....I see that you've explained it several times......I'm trying to pick it all up....alas....confusing for me.;) Here's his pedigree....I would love to know what you think. Thanks!

http://www.pedigreequery.com/sinclair5

[abrant]

I agree with the comments about individuals...

Northern Dancer was an extremely popular sire of sires, so it's easy to say you can find him in the tail male line :)... he's in a lot of tail male lines.

I for one, don't believe that anything meaningful exists past the 1st or 2nd generation.

The thoroughbred stallion named Big Splash http://www.pedigreequery.com/big+splash is a much better than average sport horse sire. He has several sons and daughters representing him on the 'A' curcuit in Chicago right now.

Yes, he DOES have Northern Dancer in his tail male line.... but I don't think that's the secret!

Individuals are the secret ;) AND also proven progeny. Big Splash himself, other than being flashy, is NOT that impressive of an individual. He's small (15.2-3h) and not that great of a mover... but he can put size on his babies and they are good movers (better jumpers).

Genetics and breeding is a dark and scary place, there is no need to make it darker and scarier by searching deep into pedigrees.

When evaluating a stallion you have to first and foremost look at *what is he putting on the ground*... if you can't do that, look at him, if you can't do that, look at his parents, if you can't do that... stop evaluating him, you don't have enough information to do so!

When evaluating a sporthorse... look at them... if you like them, ride them... if you still like them... buy them and have a good time :)

~Adrienne

[Equilibrium]

Vineyridge,
You do an awful lot of pedigree anaylisis. Per your conversation above, let me know what you think of this mare. Annia Faustina. You shouldn't have trouble finding her as she hails from the female family #1. I beleive it's number one anyway. Also I had started this on the racing part of the board but no one really cares about breeding on the racing part of the board. Anyway, Annia is our newest mare to the racing broodmare band.

Terri

[denny]

If you look back 30-40 years ago to the USET jumper teams, the USA used lots of tbs, because that`s what we had freely and abundantly available.
The problem is, except for Frank Chapot, and the tiniest handful of others who tried to preserve some of the families, the tb lines that produced the good horses were allowed to dwindle away.
Think of Bonne Nuit,(and his various sons), Wait a Bit, that stallion of Mrs Randolph`s who sired Sympatico and Tong, (having a brain freeze about his name), and also Cormac and Hunter`s Moon 4th for eventing and chasing.
They are basically gone.
While in Europe they were breeding jumpers to jumpers, then back to jumpers, then again back to jumpers, so that those traits got "fixed" in the gene pool. So if you want a jumper, most people look to the European lines.
Why wouldn`t they? There`s an "oilpatch" saying, "Look for oil in a place where you`ve already found oil."
I think we could have done it 25-35 years ago, but we missed the chance. Having an AHSA with no database back then didn`t help matters, either. Not that the USEF has one now, the far sighted thinkers!

[vineyridge]

I think the percentage of American horses that trace back to Phalaris these days is now up to 85%. Phalaris is the tail mail line for Nearco through Pharos, Polynesian through Sickle, FairTrial through Fairway, and Pharamond. All of those great sires of sires were out of Chaucer (St. Simon) mares.

Seems to me that when you're looking to breed, you want to find horses that are good at what you want them to do or just generally good. Athletic, nice gaits, courage, willingness, trainability, the JUMP, conformation, soundness, temperament--have I left anything out?--, and those are the horses worth breeding. When you look at those horses' pedigrees, some lines will stand out for having produced others of what you are looking for. Turn-To comes to mind for our purposes.

Turn-To is by Royal Charger by Nearco, who is female family 4 (as is Man O' War). Royal Charger was Nasrullah's 3/4 sibling. Turn-To produced Best Turn, Hail To Reason, and Sir Gaylord. We all look for these sires in American pedigrees because they produced good, athletic horses that were deemed worthy of breeding on. Best Turn is particularly admired by eventers, I believe, although he was also the sire of Hand In Glove, an international GP jumper sire. I believe there is a consensus that Turn-To is a good thing in sporthorse pedigrees. And if one of his was deemed good enough to breed back back then, it probably was.

Race people find out if a stallion is going to be a good sire by the time the fourth crop comes along. Sporthorse people won't find out for much, much longer, so that by the time a stallion is identified as a sporthorse sire, he's older. So we HAVE to look at both the lines, to get the ones we want, and the individual, because most of us can't afford to breed directly to the great ones in their most productive years.

For a purely sporthorse sire, it will take maybe ten years before the real quality of his get becomes apparent, and the books are so much smaller that the quality and lines of the mare are even more important to keep the line going. By then a sporthorse sire is going to be in his teens, if he had a competitive career.

Then there are some female families that seem to produce what we want. Family 1, family 4, family 9, for certain. By linebreeding on female families and their subfamilies, we are trying to intensify heritable traits from lines that usually don't have nearly the performance records as the males, because so many were unraced. Besides, it's sort of a truism that the best performance mares don't often replicate themselves, but their siblings and half siblings often do produce superior performers.

So my theory is, for example, that you would take a Turn-To sire line sire and bred him to a Hoist The Flag sire line mare who is female family 4 and see what comes out. Or you can line breed in the fourth and fifth to individuals from those or other sport lines who were deemed worthy of having their lines kept alive. Or any of the other interesting theories that breeders have come up with over the centuries.

But all of this assumes the predicate that the equine is worth breeding on in the first place.

Every horse is worth an individual evaluation for use. Pedigree only comes in when you looking at the history of soundness and talent in the line. All pedigree does is reduce the risk, both in breeding and in performance.

[Silly Mommy]

Yak's sire Mandarin (JC - Baby Rebel) had what I was told was an "Obscure" pedigree. He had been my High Junior Jumper, top Conformation Hunter, and top AO Hunter (not in that order) and was cleaning up in the puddle-jumpers at the age of 26 with a 9 year old girl. I tried to find more related horses, but none of his siblings reproduced.

http://http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/baby+rebel

What I found out (through someone on this board), is that Mandarin's sire was a 17hand almost black stallion that only bred privately, and that every foal produced ended up doing upper level eventing and all jumped in EXTREMELY good and careful form. I think that is pretty neat.

[vineyridge]

Genotype versus phenotype

The problem is that a phenotype is less likely to pass itself on unless its offspring is linebred or inbred. I have my grandmother's left eyebrow, and my mother didn't. As the egg thread below has reminded me, during the production of sperm and eggs, the chromosomes can get all jumbled up (crossover), so a gene that isn't expressed in a child can be expressed in the grandchild.

That's why breeding is an art at the moment, not a science. I'd rather look for lines that consistently produce the traits and conformation I want rather than just the parents. And ones that. when bred together, consistently produce quality individuals.

I've been discussing some of this with a sporthorse breeding expert, and she has made me realize that WBs have been created in much the same way that the TB was created originally. Blood horses with the jump and conformation and courage on top of local mares. Certainly that's where the Irish and French sporthorses have come from. It's probable, if not certain, that there isn't a single warmblood line in existence that doesn't eventually trace back tail male to a TB.

If breeds can be created by using backbreeding, and it's been done, we can re-create the TB jumpers from lines that still exist. It will take generations and generations of dedicated breeders, and I'm not sure that the patience exists for such an endeavor.

There have been some really, really great breeders in the past who managed to start really powerful jumping lines--Mrs. Tippett is a prime example, and so was Mrs. Scott.

[vineyridge]

Silly Mommy, did you notice a horse in the damline named Elf? Elf was by Upas by Dollar, and guess who else was by Elf/Upas/Dollar. Bonne Cause, the dam of Bonne Nuit and Brave Bonnie, and Quarantaine, the dam of Battleship. Can't find a nicer line damside for jumping. Kendal appears in a lot of warmblood pedigrees, and Peter McCue is famous as a quarter horse foundation sire who was stripped of his TB pedigree by the Jockey Club, although they didn't strip his already registered descendants from the stud book.

[vineyridge]

Potentially, I would imagine it could be useful. First you'd want to determine what you want to pass on. Then you'd research the lines as best you can to find out which traits tend to be passed on with more regularity because those are the ancestors you'd want to replicate. Then you'd look at the TB's in the WB pedigree that you're considering for common ancestors and evaluate not only their WB descendants but their TB descendants as well for heritable traits. You may have to go back, way back, but you'll find, for example, that Bay Ronald is a foundation sire for WBs, and his TB get are also esteemed as progenitors of good sporthorses. So, it would seem to me, that if you've got a nice mare with several lines of Bay Ronald/Hampton you would want to look for a WB stallion with a performance record of doing what you want to do who also has several lines to Bay Ronald. That's after looking for conformation complements and temperament complements.

But because phenotypes are really only good for one generation unless the lines are linebred, you'd have to accept that the grandget might not get the improved conformation of the get, unless you, too, have linebred.

[vineyridge]

.

Vineyridge, I do not know much about this mare, after reading your post I went back and looked at my guy's lines. He has Mumtaz Mahal on the Dam's top....does that count? Sorry for my questions....I see that you've explained it several times......I'm trying to pick it all up....alas....confusing for me.;) Here's his pedigree....I would love to know what you think. Thanks!

http://www.pedigreequery.com/sinclair5

Any horse with Royal Charger, Mahmoud, or Nasrullah is going to have Mumtaz Mahal in the sire's damline. She was an incredible producer of horses that produced very athletic and courageous offspring. But in tale female (very bottom line of the pedigree,going from dam to dam) she passes more of her "specialness" on through the cell's engines, the mitochrondria which have their own DNA, the MtDNA.

[Waterwitch]

There was another thread that delved into the TB jumper realm, and I believe the outcome of much discussion was that the jumper as a type has evolved to the extent that even if we were able to recreate the TB jumping stars of the past, they would still not be comparable to today's selectively bred continental warmblood jumpers. I believe it is Tom who has suggested that TB's are "jump destroyers" in a statistical sense. There was a time where they ruled and yes they are the basis of almost all of the modern jumper lines, but the Ladykillers, Rantzaus, and Furiosos would probably not outjump a modern, purpose-bred showjumper in today's international arena, if I'm understanding the argument correctly.

[coriander]

It's interesting to me that you mention the Bay Ronald/Hampton line, as I'm looking at a 2 yo filly with Bay Ronald on her sire side (who's a Ramiro grandson), but also has several crosses to Bay Ronald on her dam's TB side, as well as many to St Simon, six to the Tetrarch, including 3 through Mumtaz Mahal (not that I've been looking a lot at pedigrees :lol:). I found the dam's TB breeding quite interesting, and fairly out of current fashion if you will. I'm suspecting this could be a little sporthorse when she grows up - am I dreaming?

[vineyridge]

There was another thread that delved into the TB jumper realm, and I believe the outcome of much discussion was that the jumper as a type has evolved to the extent that even if we were able to recreate the TB jumping stars of the past, they would still not be comparable to today's selectively bred continental warmblood jumpers. I believe it is Tom who has suggested that TB's are "jump destroyers" in a statistical sense. There was a time where they ruled and yes they are the basis of almost all of the modern jumper lines, but the Ladykillers, Rantzaus, and Furiosos would probably not outjump a modern, purpose-bred showjumper in today's international arena, if I'm understanding the argument correctly.

That's probably true, given the kind of courses that are being designed today. Horses for courses is always a consideration. When the WB people control course design, you're going to see courses that favor their horses' abilities. This same thing is happening in eventing right now.

The broadjump records and high jump records are still held by TBs, so the raw jump has to still be there. It's just that the courses demand a very submissive horse, and TBs don't excel at submission. I've also recently read an article that said the WB people are deliberately breeding for lighter, easier to ride horses with a great deal more blood, in part because more women are riding internationally. I believe I read that in the Ludger Beerbaum article cited in one of the other threads here.

And none of the TB stallions you mentioned were ever jumpers. Rantzau was a good race horse, but the other two were flops. They were bought and used for their pedigrees, conformation and movement, with pedigree first.

[drgfly75]

Any horse with Royal Charger, Mahmoud, or Nasrullah is going to have Mumtaz Mahal in the sire's damline. She was an incredible producer of horses that produced very athletic and courageous offspring. But in tale female (very bottom line of the pedigree,going from dam to dam) she passes more of her "specialness" on through the cell's engines, the mitochrondria which have their own DNA, the MtDNA.

AH HA! I finally get it, thanks! I must admit....I'm learning a lot from this thread.

[fargaloo]

I know nothing about sporthorse breeding, but I am a biology professor, so I am weighing in on the use of the terms phenotype and genotype. Phenotype is the expression of particular traits in an individual; it depends on many things including genotype, environment and the interaction between genotype and environment. By definition, a phenotype cannot be inherited from an ancestor or passed on to a descendent; a phenotype is unique to a particular individual.

[lunatic fringe]

Yes, in my limited way, Waterwitch and Viney, I was thinking along those lines. Our hunter mare has a line that was used in the Caletto I line of wbs. I believe they are known for their jumping ability. I was thinking that line might be a nice cross for our mare - she can jump well already - but I thought it might be interesting to see if we can improve more. I'd have to check my notes for the line and, alas, it wasn't tail male or female. Still, I think it's an interesting pedigree (JC - Megan's Song - sire Bold Navy). She is tail male War Relic.

[vineyridge]

Fargalou, what is the correct term for trying to replicate the outward expression of a particular horse? If phenotype is simply a synonym for the individual, then what about efforts to correct one parent's conformation flaw in the foal by breeding to a parent who expresses superior conformation on that particular trait? If you aren't breeding for phenotype, what do you call what you are breeding for?

[fargaloo]

Because phenotype is the complete suite of traits exhibited by an individual, I see what you mean about "breeding for phenotype" (rather than for genotype). The distinction between phenotype & genotype that I wanted to draw is related to heritability. Heritability is defined technically as the amount of phenotypic variation in a population that is attributable to genetic variation in a population. By convention, heritability varies between 0 and 1. For example, the heritability of "jumping ability" (if you could exactly quantify that) would be the amount of variation in jumping ability in all horses that can be attributed to differences in the alleles they carry. It's somewhat counterintuitive; I sometimes ask my students what is the heritaiblity of having five fingers. Most people answer that it is 100% heritable; in fact it is 0% (differences among people in the number of fingers is never due to differences in their genes). Line breeding or inbreeding can increase the probability of seeing a trait show up in the offspring by increasing homozygosity, and thus increasing the probability of expression of a trait. But the phenotype will only be "passed on" if there is high heritability of the trait.

[Waterwitch]

Phenotype is the visible expression of genotype. Since genes are the basic units of heredity, it follows that those genes that make up a horse's genotype may produce similar phenotypic elements when they are passed on to the progeny of a horse. In that way, phenotype can be said to be heritable. It is also correct that phenotype can be influenced by factors other than genotype such as uterine environment.

[denny]

Back in the 50s and 60s, tbs came off the US racetracks usually more sound than they do today, I think.
Here are the reasons I`ve heard that this was so.
1. Fewer chances for slow horses to earn a check, because:
2. There were fewer states depending on racing to fund various programs, so they didn`t need full cards to create more betting opportunity.
3.More intrinsic soundness in horses that were not bred and interbred solely for short distance 2 and 3 yr old speed.
Therefore: US riders could pick through large numbers of cheap tbs to find the rare super jumpers. Think Snowbound, Fleet Apple, Jacks or Better, Gone Flyin`, Untouchable, then later Touch of Class, Idle Dice, etc, etc.
They all went back to some similar horses, maybe Nearco, maybe Man O` War, but what tbs didn`t?
But except for a very few lines, mainly Bonne Nuit, there was NO CONSISTENCY.
Go look at those old jumper pedigrees if you don`t agree, and find true consistency if you can. Peter Birdsall studied and studied, and found it a real "reach" to make valid conclusions.
Why? Because we had such a flood of cheapies to sift through, it was cheaper and easier to sift than to breed.
I used to go to Lincoln Downs, Green Mtn, Suffolk, Finger Lakes, and look at nice big horses by the dozen for 300-900 dollars 35-45 years ago. They were next to free, no joke. Talk to some others from my era if you doubt me.
So the impetus to create a true breeding program in our country was not there, the way it was in Europe. When you look at the World Championship results in Show Jumping, or the Young Horse Jumper Championships in Belgium, you see Pilot, Quidam de Revel, Corrado, Concorde, Heartbreaker, the same concentrated jumper lines, and I`m no doubt forgetting some of the best ones, over and over and over. No tbs to speak of. We had our chance and we blew it.
Can we recreate true tb dynasties in jumping? Sure, if you are 20 years old and have a huge trust fund and want to spend the rest of your long lifetime struggling.
I`m a tb person through and through, but I think in terms of creating jumper dynasties, it`s stupid to buck reality, and reality is what you see when you study the pedigrees of the currently winning grand prix jumpers.

[drgfly75]

I`m a tb person through and through, but I think in terms of creating jumper dynasties, it`s stupid to buck reality, and reality is what you see when you study the pedigrees of the currently winning grand prix jumpers.

I'm a TB person as well. I feel that what is winning in the grand prix jumpers due to a new "Fad". It's all what people are buying these days. IMO, not because they can jump faster, higher and wider.....but because it's something "new". (When I say new, I mean the last two decades) I remember in the early 80's when I really started seeing more WB's and people would brag because the horse was an "import". That still happens today. Yes, WB's are great as well, but I woudn't say better or worse the TBs. Again it all comes down to the individual. IMO, very few horses are athletic enough to do ANY top level sport, regardless of breed. I think it's sad that the TB has been temporarily fazed out but am certain that it is temporary. I wil continue to ride the TB, no matter what the trend.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

I'm a TB person as well. I feel that what is winning in the grand prix jumpers due to a new "Fad". It's all what people are buying these days. IMO, not because they can jump faster, higher and wider.....but because it's something "new". (When I say new, I mean the last two decades) I remember in the early 80's when I really started seeing more WB's and people would brag because the horse was an "import". That still happens today. Yes, WB's are great as well, but I woudn't say better or worse the TBs. Again it all comes down to the individual. IMO, very few horses are athletic enough to do ANY top level sport, regardless of breed. I think it's sad that the TB has been temporarily fazed out but am certain that it is temporary. I wil continue to ride the TB, no matter what the trend.

No offense, but that's a load of cobblers. The best riders in the world seek out the best horses in the world, because that is what wins. If you created a breed of super Sheltand ponies that could jump the moon then the Beerbaums, Pessoas of the world would be beating a track to your door to buy them. It has nothing to do with fads, it has everything to do with what wins.

Waterwitch summed it up perfectly a couple of pages back. The modern jumper bred WBs are the super horses of the jumping world. They have been selectively and scientifically bred to be that way. It is exactly like how the TB as a breed of racehorse was created, selective breeding for a purpose. There were probably people back in the late 1700's who were saying the same thing you are saying and complaining that all these new TBs descended from "foreign, imported Arabians" winning races was just a "fad" and native British horses were just as good, and that fashion was dictating other wise. That would obviously have been way wrong.

You'll find no greater fan of the TB in this world, as a racing nut, especially jump racing fanatic, that is the breed of horse that was my first love and always will be. But I have no problem in saying that all this talk about ehat happened the "TB showjumpers" is just sentimentality. Sure the best WBs have TB foundations, but the best TB racehorses descend from Arabs, nobody in their right mind would extrapolate from that that we should be racing Arabs in the Derby or Grand National. They are not the same thing.

You can't breed horses on sentimentality, or a stubborn clinging to a nostalgic ideal. There was a time when the Irish halfbred was the king of Showjumpers. Go back 40-50 years ago and you'll see that all the top riders were mounted on such horses, the d'Inzeos, David Broome, Harvey Smith, Nelson Pessoa. These horses were more often than not bred in a crapshoot fashion. I know, I come from generations of people that bred these horses. You took your Draught mare to the local blood stallion down the road, for no other reason than he was "down the road". Sometimes you got really lucky and your horse was sold on to become an Olympic champion, sometimes it went to the meat factory.
Meanwhile on the continent breeders were approaching breeding from a much more scientific angle. They kuered horses, stallion tested, sought out lines from other countries/registries. The Holsteiner poeple liked the way French horses jumped and imported the best. The Dutch picked and chose from French, Holsteiner and Hanoverian horses. They weeded out the chaff. Irish breeders resisted the introduction of the "foriegn" horse. We didn't need those, sure you can stick a decent TB on a draught mare and get a great horse. Well that wasn't the case anymore, they were left way behind. They only thing that has reversed that trend somewhat in recent years was the introduction of "foriegn" Selle Francais and Holsteiner blood.

Like Denny said, you could maybe created a super jumping TB if you had a trust fund and your whole life to commit to such an endeavor. But why would you? Why not do the smart thing and go tap into the SF, Holst, BWP, KWPN lines?

[drgfly75]

No offense, but that's a load of cobblers

You have your opinion and I have mine. Here are a few other opinions on the TBvs.WB topic:
http://www.hygain.com.au/News/TBsVsWarmbloods.htm

[drgfly75]

The best riders in the world seek out the best horses in the world, because that is what wins.

Tbs win to this day, however, trainers now see more money in WBs because that it what the clients "think" they need to win.

There was a time when the Irish halfbred was the king of Showjumpers. Go back 40-50 years ago and you'll see that all the top riders were mounted on such horses, the d'Inzeos, David Broome, Harvey Smith, Nelson Pessoa. These horses were more often than not bred in a crapshoot fashion. I know, I come from generations of people that bred these horses. You took your Draught mare to the local blood stallion down the road, for no other reason than he was "down the road". Sometimes you got really lucky and your horse was sold on to become an Olympic champion, sometimes it went to the meat factory.


Yes, another "fad"
Like Denny said, you could maybe created a super jumping TB if you had a trust fund and your whole life to commit to such an endeavor. But why would you? Why not do the smart thing and go tap into the SF, Holst, BWP, KWPN lines?
Because I don't want to take the easy way out and follow everyone else just because other people's opinion's of the TB have changed. I feel I have the same chances of winning on a TB as I do a WB. It comes down to talent which alot of TBs happen to have.

[denny]

I don`t think this has to be a war, or an either/or kind of thing. There are no doubt other Touch of Class tb talents out there, and if you can find one of them, you`re golden.
The problem is that it`s a very big haystack.
If you are trying to win stakes races and can spend whatever it takes, you go to the ultra elite tb yrlg auctions and buy the best individuals with pedigrees to match. They are right there laid out for your inspection.
If you are trying to do the same thing with tbs for jumping, there aren`t many roadmaps.
The specialty bred warmblood jumpers are a known quantity, and so those "roadmaps" already exist. That`s all we`re saying. Or at least that`s what I`m saying. Great if you can find one (a great tb jumper), but the odds are very tough.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Tbs win to this day,

Name all the TBs competing at the elite level on the international stage. The FEI and WFSHB keeps updated lists to make it easy for you to browse through, so you should have no problem naming them.

however, trainers now see more money in WBs because that it what the clients "think" they need to win.


We are not talking adult ammies in the US here, we are talking the elite riders in the world. Rodrigo Pessoa doesn't ride Baloubet du Rouet because some trainer told him to buy him, he rides him because he is the finest jumper in the world. Same goes for all the elite riders. Do us a favour and take a look at the top 50 competitors in the OG and WEG and tell us how many are TBs. You are not seriously telling us those riders are so mounted because that's what some trainer told them to ride? They are the elite, they ride want they want and they want the best, which in 2007 will be a WB ninety nine times out of 100.

[omare]

A xx steeplechase stallion (Timolino) in Germany was recently approved by the holsteiner book ...But it is a small world as his 4th dam is Sailingon bred and raced by Marylander BF Christmas who owned her sire towson and grand sire Cornwall.

Cornwall was also the sire of Kluwall dam of Touch of CLass (Olympic gold) and Special Memories (FEI level GP jumper) and Cormwall was the sire of the good mare Home to Papa - a stakes winner over fences.

All this is remarkable in that Towson and Cornwall did not breed outside mares or many mares. But not an accident- BF Christmas was in partners with Abram Hewitt who B Frank raced Cornwall in partnership with and from whom he purchase his broodmares when Hewitt dispersed his breeding stock. Abram Hewitt is "the man" on bloodlines- a long time contributor to the bloodhorse magazine and a prolific writer on bloodlines.

I found a great article in the Maryland Horse with BFrank talking about the genuis of Abram Hewitt-it seems that genuis extended beyond the racing realm and has had an impact even in the sporthorse world.

It is difficult to preserve these bloodlines in the USA. We may have to look to Europe to do it for us.

[Freebird!]

Here's my Great-Grand-Son of Northern Dancer: http://www.pedigreequery.com/feeling+his+oats

Not only is - well, he's still a good mover, just goes a bit stiff now - he a 10+++ mover, but he could jump the moon as well. Honestly I have no doubt that had he not had so many soundness issues - he got cast in his stall when he was 9 and was fairly high maintenance after that - he could have done Grand Prix's, or at least the Mini Prix's. He was a push button to ride, trotted 4 ft fences with ease, and was gorgeous to boot. I could show him in the Jumpers in the AM, and the hunters that afternoon. The only bad part of having owned him, is now I am TOTALLY spoiled.

[drgfly75]

Name all the TBs competing at the elite level on the international stage. The FEI and WFSHB keeps updated lists to make it easy for you to browse through, so you should have no problem naming them.

You want to argue.....whatever.....I do not. I do not need your list.

Here's mine.

http://www.showjumpinghalloffame.net/inductees/sjhf_inductees.shtml

[PineTreeFarm]

You want to argue.....whatever.....I do not. I do not need your list.

Here's mine.

http://www.showjumpinghalloffame.net/inductees/sjhf_inductees.shtml

The problem is your list is mostly horses that competed 20 years ago or more.
I'm a TB fan, I've always done well with them but I have to realize that at the highest levels of show jumping times have changed.
This is not to say that they don't have a place in sport. They certainly do in eventing and if you look a little you'll find many TB hunters and jumpers at the amateur adult and childrens levels.

It would be nice to see the TB lines that do produce sporthorses be preserved and used in WB breeding.

I don't know if the three Alydar sons ( Aly dark, Alybrave, Alydarmer ) are being used in any programs or if their sporthorse offspring are just 'happy accidents'. Same for the Raja Baba horses.

[vineyridge]

And I submit that we are seeing horses for courses, when the courses are built for the jumpers that are now on the international scene. The pure fact is that showjumping became dressage over fences, and now Ludger Beerbaum says it's changing again. The rides change, the courses change, and the horses change.

On one thread here a while back when discussing horses for courses, someone mentioned that the reason the United States won its gold in 1984 with a TB team was because a United States course designer designed the course for TBs.

As an experiment, wouldn't it be interesting to have a similar course designed today and ask Eros to jump off against a similar aged and quality WB gelding? Make it best 3 of 5 over a week. How about Eros against Glasgow? Wouldn't be scientific, but it would be enlightening.

[vineyridge]

The problem is your list is mostly horses that competed 20 years ago or more.
I'm a TB fan, I've always done well with them but I have to realize that at the highest levels of show jumping times have changed.
This is not to say that they don't have a place in sport. They certainly do in eventing and if you look a little you'll find many TB hunters and jumpers at the amateur adult and childrens levels.

It would be nice to see the TB lines that do produce sporthorses be preserved and used in WB breeding.

I don't know if the three Alydar sons ( Aly dark, Alybrave, Alydarmer ) are being used in any programs or if their sporthorse offspring are just 'happy accidents'. Same for the Raja Baba horses.

But TBs still hold the record for highest jump and broadest jump, and the courses were much bigger in the past. If you remember, Jimmy Wofford said that he had jumped 7'2 (?) on a TB jumper at Pin Oaks in Houston back in the day.

So exactly what traits do purpose bred WB jumpers have that make them superior? Is it their temperament, their trainability, or simply the fact that a) they are more consistent as a group because of their genetics, and/or b) the courses are designed for their strong points? Because it is not the raw fact of their jumping, since individual TBs can and have jumped higher, faster, and wider.

[vineyridge]

This is my sweet old mare...
http://www.pedigreequery.com/say+yes+first
She tail females to La Troienne, so that is family line 1? Her daughter drops La Troienne out of the 5 gen pedigree, but she would still stay in family line 1? http://www.pedigreequery.com/sweetsofistication
I don't pretend to know much about TB bloodlines...but I know they are nice horses. :)

Once a mare is in tail female, she is there forever and carries her family with her.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

On one thread here a while back when discussing horses for courses, someone mentioned that the reason the United States won its gold in 1984 with a TB team was because a United States course designer designed the course for TBs.



Half the team was WBs, Abdullah (Trak), Calypso (KPWN).

[vineyridge]

It's interesting to me that you mention the Bay Ronald/Hampton line, as I'm looking at a 2 yo filly with Bay Ronald on her sire side (who's a Ramiro grandson), but also has several crosses to Bay Ronald on her dam's TB side, as well as many to St Simon, six to the Tetrarch, including 3 through Mumtaz Mahal (not that I've been looking a lot at pedigrees :lol:). I found the dam's TB breeding quite interesting, and fairly out of current fashion if you will. I'm suspecting this could be a little sporthorse when she grows up - am I dreaming?

Here's one thing you could do, since you wouldn't be taking the risk of breeding her. First thing is to decide what you want to do with her. After you meet her and decide that you really like her as an individual for those uses, you can do what some TB breeders do, which is make up a pedigree chart for her back to the 9th generation. It'll take a good bit of time doing pedigree research, but you will then be able to highlight duplicates. See how many different horses actually appear in each generation and what they have done in the way of performance and in the breeding shed. It's important to note duplicates where more than one descendant has done well in your chosen discipline. Then, if after all that, you find that not only is she linebred to nice, athletic horses on the TB side, but she's also linebred to TBs on the WB side, you've probably got a winner. I do put a LOT of faith in the expertise of WB organizations when it comes to the lines of TBs they have chosen for their mares.

[vineyridge]

Back in the 50s and 60s, tbs came off the US racetracks usually more sound than they do today, I think.
Here are the reasons I`ve heard that this was so.
1. Fewer chances for slow horses to earn a check, because:
2. There were fewer states depending on racing to fund various programs, so they didn`t need full cards to create more betting opportunity.
3.More intrinsic soundness in horses that were not bred and interbred solely for short distance 2 and 3 yr old speed.
Therefore: US riders could pick through large numbers of cheap tbs to find the rare super jumpers. Think Snowbound, Fleet Apple, Jacks or Better, Gone Flyin`, Untouchable, then later Touch of Class, Idle Dice, etc, etc.
They all went back to some similar horses, maybe Nearco, maybe Man O` War, but what tbs didn`t?
But except for a very few lines, mainly Bonne Nuit, there was NO CONSISTENCY.
Go look at those old jumper pedigrees if you don`t agree, and find true consistency if you can. Peter Birdsall studied and studied, and found it a real "reach" to make valid conclusions.
Why? Because we had such a flood of cheapies to sift through, it was cheaper and easier to sift than to breed.
I used to go to Lincoln Downs, Green Mtn, Suffolk, Finger Lakes, and look at nice big horses by the dozen for 300-900 dollars 35-45 years ago. They were next to free, no joke. Talk to some others from my era if you doubt me.
So the impetus to create a true breeding program in our country was not there, the way it was in Europe. When you look at the World Championship results in Show Jumping, or the Young Horse Jumper Championships in Belgium, you see Pilot, Quidam de Revel, Corrado, Concorde, Heartbreaker, the same concentrated jumper lines, and I`m no doubt forgetting some of the best ones, over and over and over. No tbs to speak of. We had our chance and we blew it.
Can we recreate true tb dynasties in jumping? Sure, if you are 20 years old and have a huge trust fund and want to spend the rest of your long lifetime struggling.
I`m a tb person through and through, but I think in terms of creating jumper dynasties, it`s stupid to buck reality, and reality is what you see when you study the pedigrees of the currently winning grand prix jumpers.

Denny, the Foundation Quarter Horse people are attempting to "take back" their breed from too much TB. They've made a big splash, sponsored lots of events, and are being rather successful with their additional registry for foundation bred horses. If they can do it, we can do it. All it requires is will, determination, and sponsorship. The JC was going to do this for us with the PHR, and somehow (not naming names) the sporthorse people woudn't support it, and the AHSA/USEF has put it on the very back shelf.

Could we work through the PHR? It's already there with even some software. :D

[vineyridge]

Half the team was WBs, Abdullah (Trak), Calypso (KPWN).

Agree, but they were trained on American style courses with American trainers, who were used to "blood" horses.

[Peggy]

Agree, but they were trained on American style courses with American trainers, who were used to "blood" horses.And Calpyso (pedigree (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/calypso13)) was at least half TB (possible >1/2 is based on the Selle Francais on the dam side; his sire was a TB). Abdullah's pedigree (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/abdullah) does look TK thru and thru, but he wasn't exactly a heavy horse (nor was Calypso, IIRC).

[alliekat]

Would love to see what you think of my mares pedigree. I know very little about what to look for but I can tell you she sure loves to jump!!! She is bred this to a WB stallion and I am hoping for a jumper for my daughter. My only big thing I would change is that she is 15.3.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/yoyaa

This is a pic when I started her.
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/worthashotfarm/album/576460762378957047/photo/294928804088684083/4

This is her now
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/worthashotfarm/photo/294928804358278021/6

[omare]

I thought it interesting that at the last WEG, three out of four finalist were out of 1/2 xx dams.... (I think)...Pialotta, Authnetic, Shutterfly and all ridden by women. (You could see the xx up close and right there on the results as it listed the breeding.)

(Apparently Cumano has a bit of xx blood but it is from further back and perhaps-correspondingly- not as apparent in his appearance.)

[Waterwitch]

So exactly what traits do purpose bred WB jumpers have that make them superior? Is it their temperament, their trainability, or simply the fact that a) they are more consistent as a group because of their genetics, and/or b) the courses are designed for their strong points? Because it is not the raw fact of their jumping, since individual TBs can and have jumped higher, faster, and wider.

Perhaps since the height/width records are held for individual fences, part of what makes the modern WB jumper different is that he/she is better able to repeat this effort over an entire course?

I think most of it is in the biomechanics - the breeders have built a better catapult. Not just powerful gaskins and hindquarters but the right angles and strength to vault the front end quickly off the ground, and the ability to "sit" to improve maneuverability between fences.

[vineyridge]

Butterfly Flip, Malin Baryard's mare is out of a TB mare.

In one of the interviews on The Horse with a French breeder, he is quoted as saying there is a French prejudice against using TBs because they have no BLUP values established.

Could someone please explain BLUP to me in words of one syllable? In fact, could someone list and explain the different jumping indexes used by the various WB societies? How are they created, and how would an individual's index number be determined?

Edited to say I googled and found this article, which is seems to answer most of my BLUP questions.
http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/93/6/456.pdf
More BLUP, but this time horse:
http://www.swbzone.com/blupindex.html
http://www.icelandichorse.is/blup.htm
http://www.hanoverian.com/ludwigherit.html
Maybe Sporthorse TBs need some BLUPing.

[sm]

I agree with below quote. Especially with the WBs looking more and more like TBs with each passing year. What's winning is 7/8ths TB, 15/16th TB. The heavy WB of 30 years ago does not even exist -- the WB of today looks so much like a TB.

Then we change the FEI tests to reward the WB attributes (or lack of attributes, depending on your point of view).

We were aslesp at the wheel when it came to breeding and keeping a database. But to blame the TB as not good enough today, that is not a mistake I will ever make. Amoung my sins when I go to the hereafter, disrepecting the TB will not be one of them.


I'm a TB person as well. I feel that what is winning in the grand prix jumpers due to a new "Fad". It's all what people are buying these days. IMO, not because they can jump faster, higher and wider.....but because it's something "new". (When I say new, I mean the last two decades) I remember in the early 80's when I really started seeing more WB's and people would brag because the horse was an "import". That still happens today. Yes, WB's are great as well, but I woudn't say better or worse the TBs. Again it all comes down to the individual. IMO, very few horses are athletic enough to do ANY top level sport, regardless of breed. I think it's sad that the TB has been temporarily fazed out but am certain that it is temporary. I wil continue to ride the TB, no matter what the trend.

[sm]

Vineyridge, you’re light years ahead of me. I heard Storm Cat horses can jump extremely well, did you find this to be true? I hope my question isn’t too basic, LOL.



Northern Dancer is a fantastic sireline for sporthorses--but he needs to be tail male for it to work right, and only some of his sons shine for us. If he's anywhere else but the absolutely top line on a pedigree, he doesn't seem to be as useful. He was truly a sire of sires.

I've been doing the research on French Steeplechasers, and the last three pure TBs to win the big French timber chase are Northern Dancer tail male. That's a very long race with very big fences and a very big payoff.

I know the WB people don't think much of chasers for jumpers, but the jump is there and, I would argue, just needs to be developed.

[abrant]

I used to go to Lincoln Downs, Green Mtn, Suffolk, Finger Lakes, and look at nice big horses by the dozen for 300-900 dollars 35-45 years ago. They were next to free, no joke. Talk to some others from my era if you doubt me.


Not to sound like a young brat, but isn't 300-900 35-45 years ago A LOT more money now... like inflation and such? :)

According this website: http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

"What cost $300 in 1967 would cost $1800.82 in 2006."
"What cost $900 in 1967 would cost $5402.47 in 2006."

I think if you went to any track with that kind of money for an OTTB you would find some VERY nice horses!

I guess the point I would like to make is that people are willing to spend $25k on a WB prospect, but only want to spend $1,500 on the OTTB (oh yes, I've dealt with LOTS of these people). Why expect to find the same quality?

~Adrienne

[sm]

I was at Schartlesville PA a month or so ago at a TB auction and they were going for half of nothing: $600 and $900. Of course, a couple others went for $39,000...

[vineyridge]

Perhaps since the height/width records are held for individual fences, part of what makes the modern WB jumper different is that he/she is better able to repeat this effort over an entire course?

I think most of it is in the biomechanics - the breeders have built a better catapult. Not just powerful gaskins and hindquarters but the right angles and strength to vault the front end quickly off the ground, and the ability to "sit" to improve maneuverability between fences.

If this is the case, then wouldn't analysis of conformation angles, muscle attachments, type of muscle, length and ratio of bones give something to go on when evaluating TBs for jumping ability? In the article I cited on the US Hanoverian site, it is stated that jumping is the most heritable characteristic. If one had hard numbers to look for in TBs, then one could use BLUP indexes on them as well. In the vast population of TBs worldwide, and there really are far more of them than just about any other breed, there have to be ones that are built to jump and will pass that on to 40% of their descendants. South America would be one place to look, as would the more eastern parts of Europe, NH horses in GB and Ire, and France, Australia, NZ and South Africa. Oops, that's everywhere but the US. Most Americans, though, who are going to import for sport will spend their importing costs on pre-made WBs, not hopeful TBs.

If you could take the TB gallop and compress it into springs....

TBs do have their unique T2 muscle fibers. Does anyone know if the jumping WBs like Holsteiners have inherited those?

[abrant]

I was at Schartlesville PA a month or so ago at a TB auction and they were going for half of nothing: $600 and $900. Of course, a couple others went for $39,000...

And I think if you find a horse with the quality you desire for that much you should buy it and be very happy. (I am very happy with my pony that cost $275).

However, if you are ONLY looking at $600-900 thoroughbreds (and a lot of people will *not* pay more than that for an OTTB) then you don't have much business saying that they're not as nice as warmbloods :)

My pony is not at ALL comparible with that is being bred by the best pony breeders out there... but I wouldn't expect one of them to give me a pony for $275 either ;)

Expectations for thoroughbreds are high, but prices are in the toilet (unless they are the color of the month).

My point being, there are still NICE thoroughbreds out there, and you will still find them cheaper than your average warmblood. However, the majority of the buyers want something for nothing when looking at thoroughbreds and they are bound to be disappointed.

~Adrienne

[vineyridge]

I just found this about muscle fibers on the Tufts Vet School website:

So, What Happens During Exercise in the Quarterhorse versus Thoroughbred?

Your Quarterhorse is about to begin running the barrels. He starts to gallop - what powers him? When a horse starts to gallop, he needs an immediate source of energy. This energy is found in the very small amounts of stored ATP and a molecule called phosphocreatine. However, these supplies are quickly exhausted (within seconds).
Your Quarterhorse's powerful, predominately Type IIb muscles, have by now started the process of producing energy by anaerobic glycolysis. This process is in at its peak within 60 seconds - with the job that your horse is doing now, this is all the energy that he needs. Because your Quarterhorse has a high proportion of fast-twitch muscles that are meant to move into gear quickly and anaerobically, and produce great strength and power, he is innately suited for many of his jobs, such as the quarter-run, barrel-racing, and calf-roping. However, these muscles can't sustain this process for more than a half a mile, so your quarterhorse can't keep up the pace over a longer distance.
Imagine a different scenario - your Thoroughbred racehorse is in the starting gates, facing a mile and a half course, instead of several hundred yards of sprinting. What happens? Well, he starts the same way that the Quarterhorse did under full throttle! But now, he must sustain his effort for longer than is possible with anaerobic glycolysis.
The Thoroughbred, by birth, has a higher proportion of slow twitch, oxidative, Type I and Type IIa muscles. Within one minute, the slower, but more efficient process of aerobic glycolysis has begun to supplement his efforts. Although aerobic glycolysis is much more efficient, it is not as fast a method of producing energy, so at this point, the pace starts to slow. Although the thoroughbred still keeps up an amazing speed over the last 3/4s of the race, he is physically incapable, no matter what his training regimen, of completing the entire race at a sprint.
Now, to stretch your mind a little further, imagine an Arab competing in a 100 mile endurance race. He needs more energy than even aerobic glycolysis can afford, but he doesn't need the powerful, short-term speed of the quarterhorse, or even the pace that the Thoroughbred can maintain for a mile to a mile and a half. Instead, he needs to be steady and sure for a truly impressive distance.
The endurance horse needs a fuel that is in plentiful supply, but he doesn't need instant delivery of fuel - and this is found in the form of oxidation of fats. This process is slow, but extremely efficient. Even in a fit, muscular looking horse, there are enough body stores of fat to last for a very long time. Thus, the endurance horse will rely primarily on his Type I muscles to (relatively) slowly but very steadily power him through his grueling task.
http://www.tufts.edu/vet/vet_common/images/sports/quarter/figure4.jpg
http://www.tufts.edu/vet/vet_common/images/temp1/uparrow.gif (http://www.tufts.edu/vet/sports/quarter.html#gotop)
Summary

Different breeds are intrinsically suited to the type of work that they do. They are not limited by their will, or their desire, but rather by their physiological make-up, which is breed -determined (i.e. genetic) to a large extent.
Appropriate training can bring each type of horse to its peak level of fitness, but will not change the type of muscle that the horse has by birth. A good example of how this poses a dilemma is the difficulties in training for 3-Day Eventing, which requires a horse to perform aerobic (cross-country, dressage) and anaerobic (jumping) exercises. These horses that can do it all are truly impressive.
Despite the limitations imposed by nature, training can enable each horse to use his muscular strength, power, speed, and endurance to its fullest effect.So maybe sprint bred TBs would be better for jumpers, since they would have more fast twitch muscle fibers and be better at anaerobic disciplines.

I found THIS article, which is fascinating, because it seems to indicate that in a Dutch WB study of foals, IIb muscle fibers were not found. But after more research, it seems that IIb fibers in horses are really IIx or a hybrid IIxa.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10999667&dopt=Abstract

There are lots of good scientific studies on equine muscle fibers that can be found on the Web.

[imapepper]

How far back do some of these names matter? If I click on the 4th line of my mare's pedigree, I can find a bunch of these influential horses in her pedigree but it's pretty remote.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/blazing+k+jet

Her tail male is Damasus lines...which really probably have the sporthorse influence coming from the female line (Kerala, My Babu, Djebal, etc.)

Just curious on how far back it really counts to go for sporthorse breeding.

Vineyridge? Opinions?