Turning a Colt into a easy to handle stallion

[Bravestrom]

Just wanted to see if anyone had any tips or specific skills I should teach my young colt.
He is four weeks old and a real sweetheart - we want to keep him as a stallion so have already been working him in halter from the moment he was born, picking up his feet and working on general ground manners and leading. Lots of handling.

Do you handle his penis?

Just wondered if anyone had any other specific skills or tips that we should work on.

We have also introduced other horses to his paddock. He will eventually pasture with one of our gelding ponies - we want him to be comfortable around other horses as well. He will be shown.

[reinbowkisses]

Rub his belly and just slide your hand back to his genitals. Don't make a big deal out of it, just touch, make sure he doesn't kick, and be done. Do it whenever you think about it, just so he doesn't get goosey in that region. I've done that with my boys, and now at two years of age they don't bat at eye if you touch them in that area. I made a habit of checking to see if their testicles had decended.

Good luck. Just always remember that you are to control him, not the other way around. :D

[bingbingbing]

Good consistent handling is key.
What leads you to believe at 4 weeks of age he is stallion material?

[Tamara in TN]

Lots of handling.

Do you handle his penis?

Just wondered if anyone had any other specific skills or tips that we should work on.
.

my tips:

1. don't handle too much while at his mama's side...he will get away
with "cute" things you cannot tolerate later....it's just human nature to excuse the "cute" in animal babies....give him and you a break and
do enough to get the point across and save the real work til after weaning,when he's bigger and not so "cute" to you....

2. if you feel the urge to handle his noodle, by all means have at it but don't make any bigger fuss about it than his ear or elbow...

3. turn him out with others from day one...

4. expect age appropriate obediance from him...at every step...gelded,intact or no

5. never make him feel like he has to "fight" for his food...not from older geldings or other mares or anyone....always make meals (hay or grain) happy and relaxed and communal as much as possible

Tamara in TN

[Kelly G]

I agree that you only need to really worry about the basics at this age, the leading, general basic touching/handling, and the socialising. After weaning, I still wouldn't overdo the handling, but I'd set very definite guidelines with him as to what's okay and what's not, guidelines that you'll stick with for the rest of his days. That doesn't mean that you need to be mechanical and overly strict with a stallion, you can play with them as long as you use a lot of common sense, I grab our guy's muzzle or tousle his forelock, that sort of thing, and on the longe I'll occasionally pretend I'm going to chase him for a sec, and he loves it, knows it's a game and charges off on the circle tossing his head and feeling all clever. That sort of thing can be fine, but the crucial thing with stallions is that they never doubt who's in charge and what the boundaries are. You can have a bit of sensible fun with them, you can give them a cuddle, but at that moment when you say "No", it's No! If you say "Stand" it's Stand, that sort of thing. And, as long as they get their relaxation and fun time, and are treated fairly and consistently, they usually accept authority without fuss. The same rules can work just as well for a weanling as for a six year old, you just need to understand what their needs are at that particular age and level of training [ie. weanling need to have time to run and play, and have a short attention span, adult stallions need to show off a bit for the girls, etc], and they need to understand their boundaries and rules.
Kelly.:)

[classicsporthorses]

Whether he keeps his testicles or not, teach him all the manners he needs to know to be a solid citizen.

[chemteach]

What leads you to believe at 4 weeks of age he is stallion material?

That was the first thing I thought also.

[lauriep]

Me, too.

[Tamara in TN]

That was the first thing I thought also.

as maybe a sideline to the OP,I try to keep my colts as colts til they are two...even if they are to be geldings (and all of this years will be) ....I hate an effemininate (sp?) gelding in any breed....a good gelding to me should have had his "manly" characteristics before you cut him....and look like a stallion but behave as a gelding...nothing worse than "girly" geldings **....they nauseate me...:yes: esp if the breed type suggests that they look masculine....

Tamara in TN
** unless it's a "manly" mare

[GreekDressageQueen]

Don't be disappointed if your "baby" grows up to be too aggressive even if you do handle him correctly. I had planned to keep my colt a stallion and I was very strict with him. However, from day one he was bold, aggressive, and smart which proved to be too much to handle when he was 2. Nobody at my boarding stable wanted to handle him and when I was thinking about moving out of state, I had a very difficult time finding a place that would board a stallion. I handled him in a chiffney bit and he was turned out with other colts. He was very good and obedient for me, but I couldn't trust him with anyone else. Finally, my vet gave me some very good advice. He told me that I had a nice horse, but he wasn't perfect. Only perfect horses should be allowed to stay a stallion. In the end, a gelding would have a better life than a stallion because he will get turned out with other horses and be treated better by other people handling him (when I wasn't around). So I gelded him for my safety and for his long-term happiness. I will admit there have been several times I wish I hadn't gelded him, especially when I go to shows and people come and ask me if 1) he is for sale, 2) is he a stallion so they can breed to him, or 3) who is his father.

Whatever you do with your colt, he needs to have his winkie handled and cleaned. He should get used to that regardless. Don't EVER let him bite you, back up to you with his butt, or lean over in front of him (I know that sounds gross but I have seen several colts mount people this way). Make sure he respects your space and NEVER let him call out when you handle him. If he is going to be shown, he needs to keep his feelings to himself and that means when he whinnies or calls out - he needs to be punished. You don't want to have THAT obnoxious stallion at the show. If he drops his winkie when you ride or when you are just walking - you need to tap it with a whip until he pulls it back up. Stallions can be exhibitionists! Some of my advice may seem harsh, but I have owned stallions before and worked on an Arabian stud farm for 7 years. These suggestions come from what I did and what I witnessed.

I have also witnessed Quarter Horse stallions that are just the most passive, calm, and easy to handle stallions that never require harsh handling. Depending on the breed and temperament of your horse - your approach may be different.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Don't EVER let him bite you, back up to you with his butt, or lean over in front of him (I know that sounds gross but I have seen several colts mount people this way).

Make sure he respects your space and NEVER let him call out when you handle him. If he is going to be shown, he needs to keep his feelings to himself and that means when he whinnies or calls out - he needs to be punished. You don't want to have THAT obnoxious stallion at the show. If he drops his winkie when you ride or when you are just walking - you need to tap it with a whip until he pulls it back up. Stallions can be exhibitionists! Some of my advice may seem harsh, but I have owned stallions before and worked on an Arabian stud farm for 7 years. These suggestions come from what I did and what I witnessed.

My stallions always back up to me for a tail scritch, and I never have to worry about bending over :confused:

WRONG! NEVER punsih his penis. He is allowed to drop anytime he wants - period, as long as his behavior does not change. Severe punishment of stallions it the best way to turn them rank.

I demand nothing more of them than I would any horse.

[pwynnnorman]

I've developed two colts into mature stallions and one colt I hoped to use as a stallion into a great gelding. I think you need to handle them the same, correct but not exaggerated way you would handle any youngster. I do not agree with handling his penis any more than you would any other. I've never seen any evidence that NOT doing so makes the least bit of difference and I can imagine how doing to too much CAN cause issues.

I have found, on the other hand, that teaching voice commands, including vocal reprimands, as early and consistently as possible can be very, very useful in developing a young stallion. It is critical that you have something that can cut through the hormonal frenzy in a fast and sure way.

I also recommend breaking him to ride before using him for breeding and either never using him for natural cover so he never thinks its OK to breed a mare--and give him a chance, as a result, to lead a reasonably normal life without having to be isolated--OR decide to let him socialize with mares in his environment. If you do the latter, then you have to commit to it for the rest of his life as it woudl be cruel to let him get accustomed to some level of interaction with other horses only to rob him of that later.

I don't turn Kevvie out with anyone any more, but his stall has a window that looks into the broodmare's run-in shed and is next to a stall shared by alternatively by his brother and mother. He'll fight, mostly in play, with Colin, the "real" stallion of the barn (a gelding, but aggressive and possessive), but lose horses aren't at risk with him because he's accustomed to having all types of horses nearby--even close enough to bite over his stall half-door. The only problem--as was problematic with his (deceased) older brother--is that he has to have a mare nearby. If he doens't he goes ballastic and can seem to drop 50 pounds overnight. He becomes a perpetual motion machine (just like his Dad) when the mare routine is disrupted. He gets ulcers and stops eating and is just terrible to live with (although he always handles well--from the ground, that is).

Lastly, I'd also like to get you to consider, in the long run and for the happiness of your little fellow, investing in freezing his semen and gelding him eventually. Modern technology is rapidly getting to the point where we can have our cake and eat it, too, without forcing an animal to live a (potentially) frustrating, isolated life. I am praying that Kevvie will freeze well (his Dad didn't), so that he'll be a happy gelding AND continue to be a proud papa someday.

[Bravestrom]

Seems to be a lot of question as to why I want to keep him as a stallion - you would have to see him move.

Firstly I own a gelding that is the brother to his mother - If I could make this horse a stallion I would in an instant but I cant.

So I bought his full sister last year - she is a prize winning line horse - she is a commercial horse - clyde/hackney cross - a beautiful, athletic mare that can jump the moon like her brother, has incredible attitude and beautiful movement. I had her inspected and approved as a Canadian Sport horse foundation mare.

I bred her to a beautiful chsa swedish warmblood. My foal has straight legs and incredible uphill movement - he already canters uphill and floats at his trot - not to mention his chrome, an incredible neck and muscles all in the right places.- four white feet and a beautiful blaze. But what impresses me most is his attitude.

He already walks on a halter, we can pick up his feet, he comes when I call him and he has a presence that is commanding. He is so smart - at four weeks of age he already knows when mom eats he comes out of the stall - I start separation really yearly with my young ones so that mom can start back to work prior to weaning. He walks around the barn visiting the other horses and being handled. I have already added two other horses to his field - a filly and a nurse mare - no issues whatsoever - I regularly go out into the field to handle him and he always comes when I call.

My dream has always been to be able to breed draft crosses - while we will still see if he is the right one to be a stallion - so far it looks that way. He has exhibited the right attitude as far as I am concerned and has great conformation.

He was in the arena on his second day - cantering around his mother in circles - on the correct lead - did changes in direction and flying changes as he went - my jaw just dropped as I watched him.

When he canters in the field he is totally using his back end and jumps any bush he can - he even jumped over the hay elevator by accident - I almost had a heart attach.

[jaimebaker]

I agree with GreekDressageQueen. Don't get upset if your well-handled colt still turns into a monster. I had a bottle fed baby that my mother wanted to keep whole. Baby was great and, of course, being bottle fed had a little less respect for people than he would normally have but had great ground manners and had experienced all kinds of stuff at a very young age. However, at the ripe old age of 10 months, he lost his mind. I went out to feed one morning and he reared, struck at me, with teeth bared the whole time. When the idiot calmed down, I stuck my hands underneath him and felt his second testicle had dropped down. He became so violently dangerous that you couldn't have paid me enough money to keep him whole. He was a danger to anyone around him. Ground manners that he had went out the window. His nuts dropped and his brain went out his ass so to speak. He was gelded immediately. Knocked all of that jazz off. Of all the studs I have dealt with, he was one that threw me for a loop. I never had one do that before and maybe it was due to bottle-feeding in part. Don't know, don't care, testicles went bye-bye.


Plus, when you deal with a baby, you aren't dealing with the hormones and testosterone that you are with an adult. He WILL forget his manners. He WILL forget you are on the end of the rope. You just have to stay consistent.

I also agree that at 4 weeks, it's really hard to tell if you have stallion material. Horses change so much throughout the first year you just never know. And really, they need to be 2-3 before you can tell how they are going to be conformationally. At least, that's how I look at it.

Edit: You mention you want to keep him whole because of how he moves. As the horse grows, that movement will change. I have bought babies because they were great movers only to have it fall apart as they got older. Good luck!

[Sakura]

ConfOrmation

[jaimebaker]

ConfOrmation

Maybe he's 'confirming' he wants to be a stud:lol:

Not picking on you Prodomus, I got picked on for something similar in another thread.

[Equine Reproduction]

Make sure he respects your space and NEVER let him call out when you handle him.

While I agree with respecting your space, stallions "should" be allowed to call out when they are going to the breeding shed. Discouraging stallion like behavior at all times results in stallions that develop aberrant behavior. They need to be allowed to be boys, but at appropriate times.

If he is going to be shown, he needs to keep his feelings to himself and that means when he whinnies or calls out - he needs to be punished.

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! If he calls while being worked, it means he's distracted and not focused on you. Therefore, you need to redirect his attention. But punishing him for the behavior is unfair and quite frankly, abusive. Would you punish a mare or gelding for calling out? Of course not. You would attempt to regain their attention.

You don't want to have THAT obnoxious stallion at the show. If he drops his winkie when you ride or when you are just walking - you need to tap it with a whip until he pulls it back up. Stallions can be exhibitionists!

Oh for God's sake. I can't tell you how weary I get of hearing this kind of abuse from people. Hitting a stallion's penis with ANYTHING is abuse. Period. Plain and simple. If he drops at an inappropriate time, which is relatively common with young stallions, he's not focused on the task at hand. Redirect his attention. I've said it repeatedly in the past, ignore the penis and address the behavior.

Hitting a stallion's penis will result in a stallion that is reluctant to drop when being bred. We get to deal with those stallions way too often. Stallions are supposed to be breeding animals. If you're planning on keeping him a stallion to breed, then learn to handle them appropriately. Otherwise, do everyone a favor and geld him.

Some of my advice may seem harsh, but I have owned stallions before and worked on an Arabian stud farm for 7 years. These suggestions come from what I did and what I witnessed.

Just because it's what you have witnessed definitely doesn't mean it's appropriate or correct.

I have also witnessed Quarter Horse stallions that are just the most passive, calm, and easy to handle stallions that never require harsh handling. Depending on the breed and temperament of your horse - your approach may be different.

STallions are individuals and each should be treated as such. Some will have higher libidos than others, some will never be warm and fuzzy kind of guys. However, with that said, a stallion should be treated like any other horse with the same expectations. If your mare or gelding acts like an idiot and is screaming it's head off, you refocus the attention. Same goes for a stallion. If he drops at an inappropriate time, back him up. Keep your hands off of the penis.

I will say again, it's like dealing with a teenage boy. If your son is sitting on the front lawn watching the cheerleaders across the street practice and ends up with an erection, would you take out a whip and hit it? Of course not. You'd probably say, "come on, why don't we go take a bike ride or something". If however, he's sitting on the front lawn screaming at the girls to "Take your shirts off" and other such obnoxious behavior, you'd probably grab him by the ear and have a nice "Come to Jesus" conversation with him about appropriate behavior but you still wouldn't take out a whip and hit his penis with it. Eventually he'll learn to control the urges. Same goes with a stallion. Abuse has no place in handling any animal, but with a stallion even more so. They have an extreme sense of fairplay. Most mean, nasty stallions are NOT born, but are made through inproper handling.

One trainer I know says you're more than welcome to go ahead and take a whip and hit your stallion in the penis when he gets an erection BUT, when you do so, you have to promise that every time your husband or boyfriend gets an erection, you have to hit it with a wooden spoon. See how long "that" relationship lasts. Good point, eh?!

If you're planning on keeping your horse as a stallion, go work at a variety of stud farms and watch how they handle their animals. Remember that just becasue someone does something does NOT mean it's necessarily right or correct. I pick and choose the handling practices I see and use the ones that work and are fair.

With regards to handling your young colt's penis, ignore it. Would you handle it more if you were dealing with a gelding? Of course not. When it comes time to train him to the breeding mount, any facility that works with stallions and establishes good breeding practices, will make washing the penis part of the entire process. There's no need to have any kind of previous "training" as the boys figure out pretty darn fast what it's all about and what they must do to get from point "A" to point "B".

Hope that helps!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com
Check out our spring enrollment special!

[Bravestrom]

There - I have corrected the silly spelling mistake - hope you're happy - now your posts will look silly.

I found that a little insulting.

[baywithchrome2]

I'm by no means the stallion raiser, but I had to learn fast when the bay filly I was hoping for turned into grey stallion prospect :lol: Oh well, life is always a bunch of surprises. I've learned along the way and I've asked a lot of questions and read as much as I could.

A few things I can recommend that have worked wonders for my guy:

1) He has lived in a mixed herd from the moment he came home. The older horses have taught him things I never could. And he's all the happier for it. Nothing like a bitchy broodmare to keep the young-un in line!

2) I've not sheltered him from un-bred mares nor in-heat mares. They are stabled near him regardless of their cycles (although they are separated by fence backed up by hot wire on both sides). I might get flamed for this, but if he makes it as a stallion, he's going to be stabled next to mares at the show or meet in-heat mares face to face at the in-gate, walking to the show ring, etc. It's better to learn now that there is a time and a place for breeding.

3) Get him out and expose him to as much as you can.

4) And the best thing I've acknowledged and learned to say... I do not know everything and I don't want to ruin my colt. So, if I feel like there is a place when I'm stuck with our training, I seek professional help.

It's worked so far. Best of luck!

[Astraled]

I handle my Arabian stallion with a plain leather halter and lead. He is the perfect choice for a first time stallion owner. No whipping required. He also gets to go out with other horses and even lived with another stallion in past.

I agree with classicsporthorses; raise him right and worry about the stallion thing later. He'll give you a reason to cut him or a reason not to eventually :D.

[jaimebaker]

There - I have corrected the silly spelling mistake - hope you're happy - now your posts will look silly.

I found that a little insulting.

I didn't mean for my post to come off as insulting and apologize if it seemed like that. Even as a new poster, I have learned that some people are more concerned with grammar and spelling than they are of the actual post. I knew what you meant and didn't even pay attention to it when I read your post. I just figure the spelling/grammar nazi's get a bigger kick out of belittling a poster than they do giving advice. Whatever floats your boat;)


You have gotten some good advice here. And probably the best advice to take to heart is that each, individual horse is going to be different. You can't approach every horse with the same set of principles and think it's going to work every single time.

I am like Astraled, I have an Arab stallion that I spend more time working with out of halter than with one. And when he does have a halter on, it's just a normal nylon halter. When he was younger, he was a little piss ant and I tried the whole stud chain approach. He got very defiant very quickly. I had to learn a different approach. Not babying but not bullying either. Now, he has fantastic ground manners, is never fussy or hollering at mares and respects my space. Even around mares, he may talk and coo but he never forgets I'm on the end of the leadrope. He is pastured with a gelding and he rarely (knock on wood) gets into any trouble.

He has mares as close as 100 ft to him and he may give a friendly nicker, but no pacing fences, no acting stupid. And he has been bred before. I think the quickest way to make a stallion neurotic is keep them in a stall, don't let them be horses and only pull them out to breed. Just my own opinion though and certainly differs from others. If you let him be a horse and be with other horses you are certainly going to have a more well-rounded individual (again, my opinion).

[Bravestrom]

He will definitely be worked and I think that is very important - we are mainly into eventing but I also show dressage and one son is into the jumper world while the other events - so he will not just be a pretty boy in the field.

I think it is important for him to have good discipline as we intend to show him quite a bit.


We do work with our horses both on and off the halter - all of our horses can be lead by halter, by a leadshank around their neck and by a hand under their jaw.

The only time they usually wear a halter is for grooming and to be tacked up, farrier, clipping or trailering. Otherwise they are all halterless and come in and out of the barn for feedings without anything.

Even our yearling can be handled this way and the colt is already handled this way too.

[Sakura]

There - I have corrected the silly spelling mistake - hope you're happy - now your posts will look silly.

I found that a little insulting.

What is silly is that you want to breed horses and you don't know the difference between confirmation and conformation. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

[pintopiaffe]

I love Kathy's teenage boy analogy. There is appropriate 'reactionary' behaviour, and innapropriate behaviour.

My stallion is pretty wonderful. Or else he wouldn't still be a stallion. His sons seem to have inherited his laid back attitude, he has 2 stallion sons. It would be interesting for you to look at the sire and damlines of your colt and see how many stallions are around. It's interesting to me that some great sires have NO intact sons outside of the breeding shed. (i.e. showing, or just being used for things other than breeding.) Not that there can't be a first, and that an individual can't be the 'exception' to the rule, but it's interesting to start with knowing what the rule is.

The only thing useful (I think ;) ) I'll add is I agree 110% with turnout, particularly with experienced broodies. Though any horse who will let him be a horse, physically play etc., and still keep him inline is far more valuable than most human 'training.'

And to nip (pun acknowledged) any mouthiness in the bud IMMEDIATELY, no matter what the age. I've worked with quite a few stallions, all different breeds, from ponies to Ranch bred QH's, to Fjords & Iberians. The most ANNOYING and dangerous behaviour I've seen in any of them is biting and being mouthy. I simply hate it, and don't tolerate it.

My stallion has the best manners on the farm, period. If he wasn't, he'd be a GREAT gelding. But the only thing I consciously do differently with him, is be CONSCIOUSLY consistent and fair.

[jaimebaker]

What is silly is that you want to breed horses and you don't know the difference between confirmation and conformation. :lol::lol::lol::lol:



Well, I know the difference and sometimes when I am typing I just misspell the freakin word. So what? Just cause she spelled a word wrong doesn't mean she doesn't know anything about horses. You need to get off your high horse.

[Bravestrom]

It was just a typo - here let me search all your posts to see if you have ever made a typo. Thanks for the education?????

[GreekDressageQueen]

Gee Whiz...does everyone here react to opinions like this? It seems like somebody needs to put their "big girl" pants on. I offered my opinion - take it or leave it. Personally, it sounds like some people reading this thread are totally against spanking and label everything that may be harsh as "abuse." Some people use more discipline than others and use other methods. I have my method and I offered it as a possible solution for the lady asking.

I have lived and ridden in Europe and in the U.S. for over twenty years and most top professionals treat their stallions according to their temperament, but they all would use firm tactics if the stallions called out at a show or dropped their penis during work. Personally, when I am riding my mare in the ring with a stallion, I appreciate the trainers who are good enough to control their stallion's natural instincts by making them behave properly. The breeding shed is one thing but the show ring is entirely different. Some trainers go so far as to use one halter for the breeding shed and a different halter for riding. The stallions soon pick up on the difference and act accordingly. However, the respect for knowing how to behave and when doesn't come from asking the horse in a "sweet voice" or "aligning their chakras." It comes from having respect for the handler and this is what I was trying to say in my original post.

There are mean and horrible people who abuse their horses, yes, it's a horrible reality. However, that doesn't mean that everybody who suggests a harsh method (or a harsher method than yours) is cruel. Some people would say riding a horse is cruel or making him live in a stall. It's all about perspective.

Frankly, how many people who raise colts or own geldings handle their horse's penis? I can't tell you how many geldings I know who react poorly to getting their sheath cleaned or their private parts handled because it wasn't handled. Have you seen how much a stallion's winkie is handled during collection or breeding? A lot. What's the big deal if you do handle the colt's penis more than normal? I am not suggesting anything gross, but touching the area, handling the testicles, and cleaning the opening area during a daily grooming session does not seem excessive or abnormal to me.

P.S. Ever since my gelding was a baby he would back up his butt to me for a nice scratch and I was happy to oblige. When he was a yearling (and still a stallion) one day for no apparent reason he started kicking at me as he backed up for a scratch. Luckily, I was able to get away before I got hurt and he got a big whooping for that. I never scratched his butt again until he was gelded and he returned to is sweet baby self. After that experience, I don't let babies back up to me for a scratch. I will scratch them from the side or during a grooming session while they are tied and under control. That is why I made that suggestion.

[Waterwitch]

I have lived and ridden in Europe and in the U.S. for over twenty years and most top professionals treat their stallions according to their temperament, but they all would use firm tactics if the stallions called out at a show or dropped their penis during work.

There have been a lot of positive changes in stallion management in the last 20 years, with the work of Sue McDonnell and others like Kathy and Jos who study and work with hundreds of stallions every year using methods that take into account species and gender specific behavior and learning. Correcting a stallion for an erection by striking the penis is wrong - period.

[Dazednconfused]

There have been a lot of positive changes in stallion management in the last 20 years, with the work of Sue McDonnell and others like Kathy and Jos who study and work with hundreds of stallions every year using methods that take into account species and gender specific behavior and learning. Correcting a stallion for an erection by striking the penis is wrong - period.

She didn't say hit or strike, as I recall, she said tap.

All the people you mentioned are very good at what they do - but it doesn't make their method right 100% of the time in all cases. Just like John Lyons, Beezie Madden, George Morris etc's methods are not right for every horse in every situation. I know most on this board seem to follow Equinerepro's posts/directions etc to the letter but that doesn't necessarily mean it is the only way or that their way is the best (even despite their extensive experience). I don't think anyone here should be sheep when it comes to their own personal dealings with horses ;)

Like that poster, I've known lots of very well adjusted stallions who have had the 'tap and command' method used who had absolutely nooooo problem when it came time for breeding. I prefer a more progressive method - I say "No talking" and shank the leadline a little bit - and if the stallion continues despite my way of refocusing we would move on to the tapping and "Put that away". NOT hitting or yelling or anything like that. Moderation, remember.

I would reprimand a mare or gelding for calling out, particularly so when it's excessive - it's a normal behavior for a horse, after all - but it's also not a good habit to let any sex of horse get into, especially show horses. My mare tends to scream a lot when she's in heat. I hate the noise and I dont' feel that it's necessary most of the time - so I give her a light shank and say "No!" - and I would say the same thing to the stallions I handle when not breeding "No talking!", though, instead. I also dislike it when she stops to squirt/wink/pee/flirt ( ;) ) so I try to discourage that behavior, primarily because I find it obnoxious and gross ;)

[Equine Reproduction]

I offered my opinion - take it or leave it.[ /QUOTE]

Yes, it "is" an opinion. I'll leave it. But unfortunately many who are NOT familiar with stallion behaviors will take it as good sound advice. It's not. And just becasue you have seen others use this method does NOT mean it is effective, fair or practical. There are other, much more sound methods of dealing with inappropriate behavior.

[QUOTE] I have lived and ridden in Europe and in the U.S. for over twenty years and most top professionals treat their stallions according to their temperament, but they all would use firm tactics if the stallions called out at a show or dropped their penis during work.

Yeah, well, I've also seen Arab halter horses shanked so hard that they had to ice pack their jaws to bring down the swelling. I've seen Tennessee Walkers "sored" to the point that they're almost crippled. I've seen jumper horses with nails put in their boots so that if they brush the pole it hurts. I've seen quarter horses that have had alcohol injected in their tail heads so they can't wring their tails. Are their training tactics appropriate? Do you condone them? Just because they are used, does NOT mean that they should be used.

Personally, when I am riding my mare in the ring with a stallion, I appreciate the trainers who are good enough to control their stallion's natural instincts by making them behave properly.

As noted in my previous post, deal with the behavior and ignore the erection. I am not condoning the handler that allows their stallion to behave like a raving lunatic. And anyone that has watched either Jos or I handle a stallion will tell you that they are expected to behave and behave appropriately - just like any mare or gelding. They are disciplined for inappropriate behavior. Bad manners, dangerous behavior, ignoring the handler, etc., will always get addressed. Stallions are no exception. They must walk beside us in an organized, disciplined, well behaved manner. If they're on the way to the breeding shed, they're allowed to express stallion behavior, e.g., calling, dropping, puffing up, strutting their stuff, etc., so long as everything they do does NOT endanger themselves, their handler or anyone else. The handler must ALWAYS be in control. Always.

The breeding shed is one thing but the show ring is entirely different. Some trainers go so far as to use one halter for the breeding shed and a different halter for riding. The stallions soon pick up on the difference and act accordingly. However, the respect for knowing how to behave and when doesn't come from asking the horse in a "sweet voice" or "aligning their chakras." It comes from having respect for the handler and this is what I was trying to say in my original post.

And you believe that striking the penis is going to develop respect? Nope. It will, however, in some stallions, create a very explosive reaction. They have an incredible sense of fair play and while some stallions will resign themselves to the abuse, others will wait for the opportunity to get even. And, with regards to having them respond to a "sweet voice", you'd be surprised. If it is expected and everything is done in that "sweet voice" the animal will respond accordingly. Yelling and screaming is not necessary, believe it or not.

However, that doesn't mean that everybody who suggests a harsh method (or a harsher method than yours) is cruel.

We have the unique perspective of having to deal with those stallions that have had their penises whipped because they "dropped" at an inappropriate time. I have offered here repeatedly, better methods of dealing with a stallion that drops. Your method is archaic and abusive. If someone offers you a better method of training, I would like to think that you're capable of thinking out of the box and recognizing that just possibly it "might" be a better way of approaching things. I know it's what we do. We spend a lot of time with some of the top horses in this country. We also are fortunate in being able to share ideas with some of the top repro people in the world, Sue McDonnell included. We discuss methods of dealing with specific problems and behaviors and are MORE than willing to try a new method if the old one isn't working. It's all part of trying to improve one's abilities, techniques and methods.

This forum is viewed by LOTS of breeders and lots of neophyte stallion owners. We recognize that there are a variety of opinions and methods of getting the job done and are willing to embrace them, if they are effective and not cruel. Cruelty has no place in handling horses of any gender.

Have you seen how much a stallion's winkie is handled during
collection or breeding? A lot.

Err...it's what we do for a living. We collect probably close to 500 stallions a year. Stallions are expected to stand quietly while being washed. Cow kicking, striking, biting, rearing, etc., is not tolerated. But throughout any of that, the penis is NOT hit. Ever.

What's the big deal if you do handle the colt's penis more than normal? I am not suggesting anything gross, but touching the area, handling the testicles, and cleaning the opening area during a daily grooming session does not seem excessive or abnormal to me.

I have no problem with anyone that feels that they need to acclimate an animal to being touched anywhere. It's all part of desensitizing. But, it doesn't need any more attention than the ears, face, etc.

As I stated before, deal with the behavior and ignore the penis. You will have a much better, well behaved, well adjusted stallion. Stallions that drop at inappropriate times are merely asked to back up until they lose the erection. They just aren't able to multi task. If you have a stallion that is able to whinny and scream, he's obviously not focused on the task at hand, so refocus that energy. If he's dropped, but doing everything that is being asked of him, is responding to your commands and requests, ignore it. It's not uncommon for young stallions and in time, they recognize that there's a time and a place for the behavior.

Unfortunately, we get way too many stallions that have had their penises abused in for remedial training. While we're usually eventually able to successfullly collect those stallions, they are never entirely normal in their behaviors and can be extremely defensive if anyone goes near their penis, and rightly so!! Think about what you are recommending the OP to do and then think about that stallion being brought into the breeding shed to be collected. How keen is that boy going to be when he sees someone coming towards his penis? Hitting the penis is never, ever, under any circumstance, appropriate.

Hope that helps!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com
Check out our spring enrollment special!

[chemteach]

Absolutly agree about the no hitting.

Back in the 80's, when mostly live cover was used, my stallion was taught to walk with me each morning from paddock to paddock to tease the mares. When I finished checking the mares in one paddock, I would cluck and we would go to the next paddock. He absolutely knew his job and was never a danger to me, himself, or the mares.

When it was time to breed, I used a different halter and shank. He listened and did not mount the mare until I gave him the command. I also listened to him as sometimes he was reluctant to mount a mare; I got him kicked once for not listening.

He was a great stallion to handle, siring over 200 foals while I owned him. One year we settled 64 out 65 outside mares, all live cover!

[Equine Reproduction]

She didn't say hit or strike, as I recall, she said tap.

All the people you mentioned are very good at what they do - but it doesn't make their method right 100% of the time in all cases. Just like John Lyons, Beezie Madden, George Morris etc's methods are not right for every horse in every situation. I know most on this board seem to follow Equinerepro's posts/directions etc to the letter but that doesn't necessarily mean it is the only way or that their way is the best (even despite their extensive experience). I don't think anyone here should be sheep when it comes to their own personal dealings with horses ;)

While I agree with you with regards to embracing a variety of methods, this is one where I am absolutely adamant. Penises are not meant to be hit - or tapped. Period. There are other methods of dealing with the behavior, as noted. And, I'm not suggesting that any one is the best way. However, tapping, hitting, whatever you want to call it is never appropriate.

Like that poster, I've known lots of very well adjusted stallions who have had the 'tap and command' method used who had absolutely nooooo problem when it came time for breeding.

And boy I can sure introduce you to more than a handful of stallions that are not well adjusted. To the point that they're dangerous to collect they are so defensive of their penis. Understandably. As there "are" better methods of addressing the problem, it's just unnecessary to resort to any kind of physical "reminder" to put it away. I'll back a stallion up across a field if he's dropped, telling him to "put it away", and ya know, they soon learn the command without the backing up <smile>.

I prefer a more progressive method - I say "No talking" and shank the leadline a little bit - and if the stallion continues despite my way of refocusing we would move on to the tapping and "Put that away". NOT hitting or yelling or anything like that. Moderation, remember.

I would suggest that there are better methods of refocusing. When dealing with really hot stallions that have difficulty staying focused and on task, we'll handle them with a lunge line rather than a lead rope or shank (all stallions at our facility are handled with a shank at all times - not all need it, but it's a safety net should things go wrong. You never know if the neighbor's mare is going to come trotting down teh driveway <rolling eyes>). If the youngster starts calling and can't refocus, he's pushed out and lunged. When he's regrouped and refocused, we'll bring him back in and proceed to what we were originally doing. A few times of being worked when he's lost focus and you'd be amazed at how quickly they figure things out. Backing up, as noted above works well. Changing directions works in some cases. And, we try to expose the boys to as much as we possibly can. Young stallions we LIKE trying to haul to shows and while they may not be competing, they learn to stand quietly and absorbing all the distractions at a show. Eventually, they recognize that there's nothing to be gained by acting like an idiot. They're still going to end up standing next to the trailer <smile>.

I would reprimand a mare or gelding for calling out, particularly so when it's excessive - it's a normal behavior for a horse, after all - but it's also not a good habit to let any sex of horse get into, especially show horses. My mare tends to scream a lot when she's in heat. I hate the noise and I dont' feel that it's necessary most of the time - so I give her a light shank and say "No!" - and I would say the same thing to the stallions I handle when not breeding "No talking!", though, instead. I also dislike it when she stops to squirt/wink/pee/flirt ( ;) ) so I try to discourage that behavior, primarily because I find it obnoxious and gross ;)

As noted, we expect stallions to behave as we would expect a mare or a gelding to behave. And, we would address the problems in the same manner. There are a variety of methods and training techniques available. Our's are not the only ones out there and we certainly encourage breeders to search far and wide for good effective methods. One thing we repeatedly encourage neophyte stallion owners to do is to go volunteer and work at a stallion station. Take what you learn there and apply the techniques you agree with, like and that work! If you don't like a particular method, don't use it!

Dr. Sue McDonnell also offers an incredible course on stallion behavior and management. We actually sponsor the course because she does offer some unique and good, logical, fair and appropriate methods for dealing with stallions. Anyone that is planning on standing a stallion would be well advised to attend the course. It's well worth the investment and would certainly circumvent some problems before they ever occur.

I love nothing more than watching a good, competent stallion handler that knows how to gain both the respect and to focus the stallion's attention. It's truly something to watch. But as we're on the other end of the spectrum, we also get to deal with a lot of stallions that have been handled inappropriately. More often than not, I marvel that some of these boys are as tolerant of some of the abuses they've received and the fact that they will ever trust someone enough to collect them. They are individuals and while some of them will tolerate some incredible abuses, others will become really, really dangerous animals. It's unnecessary.

Hope that helps to explain the position a bit better. Sorry, but hitting the penis is probably the one thing that makes my head do a full rotation <sigh>...It's a hot button with me.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com
Check out our spring enrollment special!

[Laurierace]

Please forgive the hijack. I am curious if there is ever a point where you know you are going to for sure have an easy to handle stallion. I am not referring to breeding, just the day to day handling. My colt is 16 months and is still a puppy dog. He has gotten a little nippy at times but is quickly corrected and that tends to be the end of it. We have caught him playing with his manhood on more than one occasion so I believe all the hormones are in place. Is it safe to assume that he will remain this temperment, or is there still a chance that he could bloom into a hormonal lunatic at some point?

[Dazednconfused]

While I agree with you with regards to embracing a variety of methods, this is one where I am absolutely adamant. Penises are not meant to be hit - or tapped. Period. There are other methods of dealing with the behavior, as noted. And, I'm not suggesting that any one is the best way. However, tapping, hitting, whatever you want to call it is never appropriate.

And boy I can sure introduce you to more than a handful of stallions that are not well adjusted. To the point that they're dangerous to collect they are so defensive of their penis. Understandably. As there "are" better methods of addressing the problem, it's just unnecessary to resort to any kind of physical "reminder" to put it away. I'll back a stallion up across a field if he's dropped, telling him to "put it away", and ya know, they soon learn the command without the backing up <smile>.



I would suggest that there are better methods of refocusing. When dealing with really hot stallions that have difficulty staying focused and on task, we'll handle them with a lunge line rather than a lead rope or shank (all stallions at our facility are handled with a shank at all times - not all need it, but it's a safety net should things go wrong. You never know if the neighbor's mare is going to come trotting down teh driveway <rolling eyes>). If the youngster starts calling and can't refocus, he's pushed out and lunged. When he's regrouped and refocused, we'll bring him back in and proceed to what we were originally doing. A few times of being worked when he's lost focus and you'd be amazed at how quickly they figure things out. Backing up, as noted above works well. Changing directions works in some cases. And, we try to expose the boys to as much as we possibly can. Young stallions we LIKE trying to haul to shows and while they may not be competing, they learn to stand quietly and absorbing all the distractions at a show. Eventually, they recognize that there's nothing to be gained by acting like an idiot. They're still going to end up standing next to the trailer <smile>.

I love nothing more than watching a good, competent stallion handler that knows how to gain both the respect and to focus the stallion's attention. It's truly something to watch. But as we're on the other end of the spectrum, we also get to deal with a lot of stallions that have been handled inappropriately. More often than not, I marvel that some of these boys are as tolerant of some of the abuses they've received and the fact that they will ever trust someone enough to collect them. They are individuals and while some of them will tolerate some incredible abuses, others will become really, really dangerous animals. It's unnecessary.

Hope that helps to explain the position a bit better. Sorry, but hitting the penis is probably the one thing that makes my head do a full rotation <sigh>...It's a hot button with me.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com
Check out our spring enrollment special!

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, I've had good experience with the methods I've been taught and it works for me and the stallions I handle, so I will continue to handle them in that manner. But thank you for the suggestions all the same. ;)

I don't find tapping to be abusive and neither do the stallions I've handled. Hitting is a different thing. Like I said, you are certainly entitled to your opinion on the matter (most being well-founded, no doubt) - but it's not the only way! There are never absolutes in horses, I've found :)

[pintopiaffe]

Laurierace...

In my experience, there IS a difference between a young stallion, a young stallion first starting to breed, and a mature stallion breeding.

Youth and exhuberance... fairly easy to correct. Youth and breeding, sometimes a very different horse than you knew before. Mature and breeding... it's interesting how they can change as they become secure in who they are and confident. Sometimes it's for the good, sometimes for the worse. I've had a couple who at 10 and 12 became slightly more difficult to handle (not difficult, just a little more difficult than they had been.) It's like they know what they want, they want it, and now they have the muscle and brains to back it up.

In my experience, with only a dozen or so stallions, the youthful-first-year breeding, and the mature stallion who has 'discovered himself' (midlife crisis? Executive priviledge? :lol: ) are the two that are the toughest.

If you can make it to five, then you're usually safe until 8,9 or 10...

Does that make any sense?

[Equine Reproduction]

Like I said, you are certainly entitled to your opinion on the matter (most being well-founded, no doubt) - but it's not the only way!

<smile>..Most assuredly - once upon a time, I was under the impression and had been taught that tapping the penis was "okay". Worked for several stallions I had worked with up to that point. Then came the one that went absolutely ballistic. So, had to re-evaluate my handling practices. And, that was at a time when I was doing very little breeding, so never saw any problems associated with the method. And I'm definitely not saying my way is the only way. It is why I noted other's such as Sue McDonnell.

There are never absolutes in horses, I've found :)

Ahhh, it's what keeps things interesting and why I always say there's sooooo much more to learn. I figure I haven't even touched the tip of the iceberg on what there is to know <smile>. We have had good success with the stallions we work with and fortunately have happy, well adjusted, sane stallions. We get shipped problem stallions and I'm always distressed to have to deal with them and am frustrated at what they've gone through so unnecessarily <sigh>. Hopefully, the information we share here will save some stallions and some owners from the school of hard knocks (no pun intended).

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com
Check out our spring enrollment special!

[bingbingbing]

It can be called tapping but hitting, smacking, beating a penis is IMO wrong and unneccesary. There are other ways to accomplish the same results much more fairly. Why not redirect the horse's attention instead of hitting him in such a delicate place?

Also, while stallions are expected to behave perfectly in company, many times it is the mare owner's at shows that you need to watch out for. I've seen mares in season running to stallions and squatting in front of them.

[Laurierace]

Laurierace...

In my experience, there IS a difference between a young stallion, a young stallion first starting to breed, and a mature stallion breeding.

Youth and exhuberance... fairly easy to correct. Youth and breeding, sometimes a very different horse than you knew before. Mature and breeding... it's interesting how they can change as they become secure in who they are and confident. Sometimes it's for the good, sometimes for the worse. I've had a couple who at 10 and 12 became slightly more difficult to handle (not difficult, just a little more difficult than they had been.) It's like they know what they want, they want it, and now they have the muscle and brains to back it up.

In my experience, with only a dozen or so stallions, the youthful-first-year breeding, and the mature stallion who has 'discovered himself' (midlife crisis? Executive priviledge? :lol: ) are the two that are the toughest.

If you can make it to five, then you're usually safe until 8,9 or 10...

Does that make any sense?

Thanks for the reply. I am not concerned with his behavior in the breeding shed, if he does make it to that point it will be someone else's problem. I always geld, but am keeping this one intact "just in case" he turns out to be the race horse he looks like he will be. The chances of him racing at that highest level and therefore being deserving of standing at stud are slim, but you can't put them back on....I have handled him since day one and will be the one who races him throughout his career, and am very hopeful that he will stay this easy to manage. If at any point he shows me that he is going to be a mediocre racehorse or starts being a pain in the ass, his boys will be the first to go. I was just hoping that the fact that we made it this far was a good sign.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Thank-you Kathy! There is NEVER a reason to hit, tap, a penis. You don't need to run over your kid with a car to teach them to not play in the street. Why would ANYONE, EVER want to teach a stallion to put their penis away when it is touched? ummmm, HELLO?!?! We are training them to LEAVE it OUT when touched.

[Laurierace]

Thank-you Kathy! There is NEVER a reason to hit, tap, a penis. You don't need to run over your kid with a car to teach them to not play in the street. Why would ANYONE, EVER want to teach a stallion to put their penis away when it is touched? ummmm, HELLO?!?! We are training them to LEAVE it OUT when touched.

I don't handle breeding stallions at all, but when I am working with a horse (intact or gelded) in the stall and they start hanging it out all over the place I stick my hand in the water bucket and flick some water droplets at it. They almost always put it away immediately but without any type of reaction like they were reprimanded. Is this ok in your book or should I just let them hang out?

[Fairview Horse Center]

Not ok in my book. Why is it a crime for a stallion to have a penis? If you hate the look of a penis that much, only be around mares. A penis is not committing a crime. Ignore the penis. If they are ACTING rude, deal with the behavior. There is absolutely NO reason why a stallion can't cool himself off, relax, etc. If a stallion is dropped and acting inappropriately, it is their brain that is the problem, so I would rather see a handler use a plastic bat to get the attention/punish the FRONT end - where the issue is coming from. The penis does not have a brain of it's own. You have to deal with where the signals are coming from.

[GreekDressageQueen]

Fairview Horse Center - it is obvious that you are knowledgeable about stallion handling and care. Nobody is attacking your methods, but it is just another method. Prodomus asked for advice/opinions on how to handle the colt and I believe we are providing her with options - Prodomus will make up her mind on how to handle the colt based on temperament and need. However, what is disconcerting to me as a Greenie on this Forum is your bullish tactics in discrediting me and elevating your method as the only true and correct one.

You claim my approach is antiquated and cruel. I recognize that many stallions have been abused in the past, but I still believe that tapping the penis when the stallion has dropped it at an inappropriate time is correct. I don't agree that it should be repeatedly whipped, hit, and or kicked. In my experience, I have only needed to tap it once or twice before the stallion figured it out. Every time my stallion (or the several I have trained) dropped, all I had to do was flick the lash of the whip and say "get it up" and he would do it without the need for physical contact. I have no problem with a horse's penis and the stallions I handled never had a problem breeding because of my method.

Nevertheless, when starting a young colt I believe it is advantageous to train him to understand the difference between breeding time, relaxing time, and riding time. He can drop and play with his penis all he wants on his own time and during breeding, but the one hour in the day when he is under saddle - those behaviors are not appropriate. Using the young boy analogy - would you allow your son to run around dangling his penis in public? What about at the swimming pool? Can he play with his penis during a soccer match? What is your problem with a little boy's penis? The point is - we all have behavioral boundaries and all males need to know when and how to use their penis at the right time. My stallions will always behave in public and I achieve that respect and discipline by tapping their penis under saddle or in-hand to teach them the difference.

Prodomus indicated in her post that this colt will be shown. My comments were geared towards helping her prepare the colt for the show environment. If teaching the stallion to refocus his energy by tapping the penis will make it safer for small children on ponies at a show or in an emergency situation, then I would support tapping over any other method. There are too many children, teenagers, and adults at shows to risk their safety.

I knew a Lusitano stallion that was so aggressive he would mount anything: people, ponies, geldings, etc. He became so out of control once that he broke away from the handler and ran behind a small Welsh pony gelding with a young rider on. The stallion savagely bit the young girl in the back several times until we could pull her off the pony. I can tell you (with absolutely no regrets) that the first thing we did to get the stallion's attention was to grab his penis. One person grabbed it and yanked it back while two handlers went for the bridle. I guess we were being cruel and horrible, but a young girl's life was at stake. I also know a lady who had her arm savagely ripped off by her stallion. The TB was her "baby" and he was a very good stallion until one day he just turned on her. He bit and pulled on her arm so bad, it was torn out of her shoulder as he lifted her up and down like a rag doll.

I guess my point is this: stallions are unpredictable, dangerous, and just as capable of doing cruel things to humans as we are to them. I, in no way, condone such training methods as soring, nerving, putting nails in boots or cavessons, etc... These are cruel - I totally agree. Nevertheless, this is a forum where we can express and discuss our opinions on training and offer advice. Neither I nor Fairview Horse Center are the single voices of reason nor are we unilaterally correct in our methods on handling stallions.

Prodomus - I hope you have received some helpful advice on how to handle your colt based on everybody's' observations and opinions. There is no one absolutely correct method. You will have to do what YOU feel is necessary, correct, and appropriate for yourself. Good luck.

[Kairoshorses]

I had an orphan TB/WB foal who was bottle fed for several weeks until we found a buckskin QH mare who'd lost her foal, and she served as a nurse mare (they were truly a funny sight in the pasture). He, too, had great ground manners, but a little less respect for humans (and horses--she let him do/get away with ANYTHING), but he led, tied, let us pick up his feet, etc. He was still a bit mouthy--no matter how much you hit, he'd try to sneak a bite in. I was planning to geld him, but most folks said to wait until he was between 1-2 years so that he'd have sufficient growth.

Then, at 11 months, the second testicle dropped, and he really did turn into a different horse. He tried to mount everything--including ME--and he drove his nurse mom crazy. He even got out and into the next pasture and tried to mount everything there (mostly retired horses!). He had the attention span of a flea (or an 8th grader--and I used to teach junior high, so I know!), and simply couldn't think. Period. I tried to "get his attention" when he was in the pasture with the retired horses, and NOTHING I did worked, I finally had to lead the mare he was currently mounting into his pasture, then scrape him off w/ the gate on the way out again!!!

All that is to say that hormones really are incredibly powerful, and they can change a horse/person's personality and ability to think/reason in an instant (and I can attest to it from the human side, having taught 8th grade, raising pre-teens, and going through peri-menopause!). Every horse is different, to be sure, and I agree with others who've said that consistency and letting them know when and where certain behaviors are acceptable is key. But some horses will simply be happier--and more productive--as geldings. I won't continue the analogy to 8th graders/teenagers, though......come to think of it.....hmmmm....!

[Bravestrom]

Firstly, I would like to thank everyone for the opinions - I think this has been great and really appreciate everyone taking the time to give their opinions.

I have printed out the pages and given them to my sons, husband and our barn manager as a perspective for all of them to keep in mind.

Secondly, I think this is exactly what the forum is for - the exchange of ideas, while it is unfortunate that some get upset, that is the nature of the beast when opinions are expressed.

There are some very interesting and thought provoking comments in here.

He has his first show in september and it will be interesting to see what happens. He is already quite different then our filly from last year - glad we had her first.

Both his testicles were dropped right away and he has already learned that biting is unacceptable and what no means. It is amazing though that he already knows that when certain people handle him he must behave while he tries to get away with things with others.

[Tamara in TN]

Is this ok in your book or should I just let them hang out?


let them hang....I have always considered it the mark of a content,relaxed stallion to flop it out and "play" with it on occasion....even them field kept with mares do it....it's just what they do....it means nothing deeper than noodle stretching

Tamara in TN

[Sonesta]

Equine-Reproduction wrote: Dr. Sue McDonnell also offers an incredible course on stallion behavior and management. We actually sponsor the course because she does offer some unique and good, logical, fair and appropriate methods for dealing with stallions. Anyone that is planning on standing a stallion would be well advised to attend the course. It's well worth the investment and would certainly circumvent some problems before they ever occur.

I can attest to this being a wonderful course and I highly recommend that ANYONE who works with a stallion of any age take the course. You will come away with some very good tools.

[jaimebaker]

I had an orphan TB/WB foal who was bottle fed for several weeks until we found a buckskin QH mare who'd lost her foal, and she served as a nurse mare (they were truly a funny sight in the pasture). He, too, had great ground manners, but a little less respect for humans (and horses--she let him do/get away with ANYTHING), but he led, tied, let us pick up his feet, etc. He was still a bit mouthy--no matter how much you hit, he'd try to sneak a bite in. I was planning to geld him, but most folks said to wait until he was between 1-2 years so that he'd have sufficient growth.

Then, at 11 months, the second testicle dropped, and he really did turn into a different horse. He tried to mount everything--including ME--and he drove his nurse mom crazy. He even got out and into the next pasture and tried to mount everything there (mostly retired horses!). He had the attention span of a flea (or an 8th grader--and I used to teach junior high, so I know!), and simply couldn't think. Period. I tried to "get his attention" when he was in the pasture with the retired horses, and NOTHING I did worked, I finally had to lead the mare he was currently mounting into his pasture, then scrape him off w/ the gate on the way out again!!!

All that is to say that hormones really are incredibly powerful, and they can change a horse/person's personality and ability to think/reason in an instant (and I can attest to it from the human side, having taught 8th grade, raising pre-teens, and going through peri-menopause!). Every horse is different, to be sure, and I agree with others who've said that consistency and letting them know when and where certain behaviors are acceptable is key. But some horses will simply be happier--and more productive--as geldings. I won't continue the analogy to 8th graders/teenagers, though......come to think of it.....hmmmm....!



Thank god I'm not the only one!!! I had totally forgotten, this horse also kept jumping a fence to get in with the neighbors horses. He didn't mount anybody.....well, I hope not. Maybe I should get mom to see if anything out there looks like a yearling:lol:

This colt slept all day. Loved taking naps in his stall. But when that 2nd testicle dropped, I swear, he'd hear the back door open and fly out of the barn at a charge with teeth bared. I mean, I slept in the stall with this guy the first week of his life. It was quite heartbreaking to watch him lose his mind and become so dangerous but I know a little bit more now, and know where I went wrong (I think). I had never bottle fed a horse before and didn't know quite what all I needed to do. The worst thing I did was remove him from the farm he was born on (where he had other horses around him) to an area where he was by himself and only around people. I never realized how much a mother really DOES put manners on a foal. Hindsight 20/20 and all that.

Oh yeah, and this gelding is STILL mouthy. You can swat at him all day long and he's still gonna try to sneak at you. I mean, all he associates humans with is food from being bottle fed. I have tried and tried to break him from it. He's not nearly as bad as he was but still.

[Chef Jade]

The penis does not have a brain of it's own. Aparently, you haven't met some of the men I've dated. :o:winkgrin:

[Fairview Horse Center]

Aparently, you haven't met some of the men I've dated. :o:winkgrin:

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[JoZ]

I've been reading this thread with great interest. I have a 2yo colt that I intend to keep as a stallion -- IF he makes it possible. So far I have not had any trouble handling him. He has bred two mares in the pasture (intentionally!), and I can go into the pasture and catch him even if he is moderately excited. If he were in full breeding stance I would just wait, at least for now. But I saw him last weekend with a cut leg and walked into the pasture, called him to me, haltered him and removed him (from mares in heat). Hosed down the leg and doctored it, turned him back out. When the mares were no longer in heat, he was put back with his young colt and gelding herd. No fence challenging, no rude behavior at all. I expect he will challenge me at some point and I am learning all I can to be able to address behavior changes.

Where could I find more about Dr. McDonnell's work and the course or class that she offers?

[Equine Reproduction]

Fairview Horse Center - it is obvious that you are knowledgeable about stallion handling and care. Nobody is attacking your methods, but it is just another method.

<smile>...It wasn't FHC that disagreed with your methods, it was me. So, I'll respond to your post.

Prodomus asked for advice/opinions on how to handle the colt and I believe we are providing her with options - Prodomus will make up her mind on how to handle the colt based on temperament and need. However, what is disconcerting to me as a Greenie on this Forum is your bullish tactics in discrediting me and elevating your method as the only true and correct one.

You are correct that the OP will make up her own mind what is appropriate and what is not. If someone disagreeing with your methods and telling you that they are antiquated and cruel is bullish, so be it. It's not the intent. I am however, explaining to you WHY your method is inappropriate. And as I stated, my method is not the only true and correct one. However, hitting or tapping the penis, regardless is inappropriate. Period. There are a variety of other methods for dealing with the behavior, mine not being the only one.

You claim my approach is antiquated and cruel. I recognize that many stallions have been abused in the past, but I still believe that tapping the penis when the stallion has dropped it at an inappropriate time is correct. I don't agree that it should be repeatedly whipped, hit, and or kicked. In my experience, I have only needed to tap it once or twice before the stallion figured it out. Every time my stallion (or the several I have trained) dropped, all I had to do was flick the lash of the whip and say "get it up" and he would do it without the need for physical contact. I have no problem with a horse's penis and the stallions I handled never had a problem breeding because of my method.

You are fortunate that none of the stallions you have handled were a problem due to your method. Stallions are individuals. Some will tolerate the treatment, others most emphatically will not. Some will just never drop at all when a human is anywhere in the picture and become problem breeders. Some will become extremely defensive of the penis and will cow kick, do everything in their power to move away from the handler, go FLYING off the breeding mount when a human moves in to direct the penis into the AV, etc. Not every stallion will exhibit such extreme behaviors but when you use your method of discipline, you won't know whether or not that particular stallion is the one that "will". People bring me those stallions to "re-train". It would be much easier if the method was never used in the first place. We work with literally 100's of stallions a year. I can, without a doubt, pick out every single stallion that has had his penis whipped to the extreme, or merely tapped when they drop. Reactions will vary depending on how severely the penis has been mishandled and depending on the individual stallion's temperament, but the behavior is very obvious.

Nevertheless, when starting a young colt I believe it is advantageous to train him to understand the difference between breeding time, relaxing time, and riding time.

Most definitely And no where in my postings have I said to the contrary. The ONLY place I disagree with you is your method of getting the stallion to pull up his penis.

Using the young boy analogy - would you allow your son to run around dangling his penis in public? What about at the swimming pool? Can he play with his penis during a soccer match? What is your problem with a little boy's penis?

I addressed that in my original post. So you're basically saying you think it would be okay to whip or tap your son's penis if you caught him playing with it in public? Of course not! Any psychologist would have a meltdown over that method of "refocusing" your son's behavior and I believe most people here would call you "Mommie Dearest" if that was the method you employed to deal with the infraction. You would have a discussion with the child about appropriate behavior. And, having the benefit and insight of having raised a son, there are times when one must address just such behavior! I can honestly say that I never resorted to any kind of physical contact in order to dissuade the child from what was appropriate and what wasn't. He's now a normal, healthy, well-adjusted adult that hopefully doesn't view his penis as something naughty or dirty and believe it or not, he doesn't pull it out in public, or in swimming pools! <smile> Please re-read my post. Deal with the BEHAVIOR. IGNORE the penis.

The point is - we all have behavioral boundaries and all males need to know when and how to use their penis at the right time. My stallions will always behave in public and I achieve that respect and discipline by tapping their penis under saddle or in-hand to teach them the difference.

You're missing my point. You can achieve the same behavior - respect and discipline and appropriate times to drop - WITHOUT physically punishing the penis. I have NEVER disagreed that there are behavioral boundaries. You seem to be under the impression that because I don't hit their penises, the stallions I handle are raving lunatics at shows. I can assure you that nothing is further from the truth. My own stallion competed successfully up to Preliminary level in the jumpers before being injured. I have a photograph of him standing quietly and very relaxed next to America 7 (Hap Hansen's mare) watching the competition. And this particular stallion has a phenomenal libido and really loved displaying his equipment. However, consistent training and refocusing when he became distracted was all that it ultimately took. He literally knows when he walks out of the stall if he's going to work or going to the breeding shed. When he stepped out the door of the stall, he would nicker. If no one growled at him, he knew he was going to the breeding shed and he would puff up, call, drop etc. ALL of which must be done in a safe, sane, organized manner - anything less was unacceptable just as it would be in any other horse. If he was going to work, the handler would growl at him and his entire attitude would relax and all noise would stop. That simple. They're incredibly perceptive animals if given the opportunity.

Prodomus indicated in her post that this colt will be shown. My comments were geared towards helping her prepare the colt for the show environment.

And you seem to believe that my comments were not. It's all well and good if your stallion keeps his penis up when he's being shown, but what's the point of having a stallion if you're unable to collect or breed him?

If teaching the stallion to refocus his energy by tapping the penis will make it safer for small children on ponies at a show or in an emergency situation, then I would support tapping over any other method. There are too many children, teenagers, and adults at shows to risk their safety.

<sigh>...you seem unable or unwilling to recognize that maybe, just maybe there "might" be a better, more humane and more effective method of addressing the problem. I could hand you a stallion that if you attempted to whip or tap his penis will not only make for an explosive situation, it will risk the safety of all parties involved in the area. He's "that" defensive of his penis. By tapping the penis, you're NOT refocusing the attention, you're actually putting all the emphasis on the penis.

I knew a Lusitano stallion that was so aggressive he would mount anything: people, ponies, geldings, etc. He became so out of control once that he broke away from the handler and ran behind a small Welsh pony gelding with a young rider on. The stallion savagely bit the young girl in the back several times until we could pull her off the pony. I can tell you (with absolutely no regrets) that the first thing we did to get the stallion's attention was to grab his penis. One person grabbed it and yanked it back while two handlers went for the bridle. I guess we were being cruel and horrible, but a young girl's life was at stake. I also know a lady who had her arm savagely ripped off by her stallion. The TB was her "baby" and he was a very good stallion until one day he just turned on her. He bit and pulled on her arm so bad, it was torn out of her shoulder as he lifted her up and down like a rag doll.

We all have horror stories to tell. However, grabbing a penis and abusing it will not correct the above behaviors. Good training will. I can point you to many, many stallions that are vicious and savage animals that will never drop, so your method wouldn't work in the first place. And, quite frankly, there are enough good quality stallions out there that are not vicious or savage that a stallion that behaved so inappropriately would lose his testicles. Most nasty stallions are made, not born. Your method of dealing with the penis is one method we see that "does" create resentful, fearful and defensive animals. My post in rebut of yours was specifically to allow the OP the opportunity to see a perspective from someone who "does" deal with a lot of stallions and sees the results of mishandling. And, grabbing, slapping, whipping and tapping the penis are not the only methods that result in aberrant, vicious or inappropriate behavior. However, it "is" one. A

I guess my point is this: stallions are unpredictable, dangerous, and just as capable of doing cruel things to humans as we are to them. I, in no way, condone such training methods as soring, nerving, putting nails in boots or cavessons, etc... These are cruel - I totally agree. Nevertheless, this is a forum where we can express and discuss our opinions on training and offer advice. Neither I nor Fairview Horse Center are the single voices of reason nor are we unilaterally correct in our methods on handling stallions.

Ahhh, but you see, that's exactly what I'm pointing out. We acknowledge that there are other methods of training that attain the same goal without the need for pain or abuse. I agree that this is an excellent forum for expressing opinions on training methods etc. And I most assuredly do not believe that my methods are the ONLY ones. Anyone that has ever attended our courses knows quite well that we embrace a variety of methods from a variety of handlers. There "are" other options available. However, hitting the penis is one thing that is, in our opinion, never, ever appropriate.

Hope that helps explain our position a bit better. Unfortunate that you believe that I'm being bullish because I disagree vehemently with your method. You appear to be just as convinced that your method is the correct one and are just as vehement and "bullish" in your support of it. It's an opinion. One of the reasons that I "do" post here and "do" offer advice is because we are in the unique position of handling many, many, MANY (did I say many?) more stallions than the average person will ever see in a lifetime, let alone in a year. It gives us a distinct advantage as we have the opportunity to realize that not every method works on every stallion and one's techniques and tactics must be adaptable. My goal is to assist breeders in developing a healthy, sane, happy and disciplined working relationship with their stallions that is based on fairness, kindness, respect and good training methods. Hitting, tapping - whatever you want to call it - the penis is one method that has no place in a good stallion handler's repetoire of training methods. It says to me that the handler has not been exposed to better, more effective methods.

Kathy ST.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com
Check out our spring enrollment special!

[Equine Reproduction]

Where could I find more about Dr. McDonnell's work and the course or class that she offers?

Contact the University of Pennsylvania, New Bolton Center. She is not a big woman, soft spoken and is extremely kind and gentle in her methods. It's a great course on learning how to handle stallions and she offers some interesting and great methods for dealing with problem stallions. I would recommend that anyone that plans on owning a stallion attend one of her courses. They are only offered a couple times a year and fill quickly.

Hope that helps!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com
Check out our spring enrollment special!

[Janeway]

<So you're basically saying you think it would be okay to whip or tap your son's penis if you caught him playing with it in public? Of course not! Any psychologist would have a meltdown over that method of "refocusing" your son's behavior and I believe most people here would call you "Mommie Dearest" if that was the method you employed to deal with the infraction.

I've been reading this thread with interest, and I just had to butt in on this one:

Kathy, That is not what she said at all. She was merely using your analogy back at you.

Its also rather disturbing to see GreekDressageRider being called cruel and lumped in with other horrible types of abuse like soring and spiking boots. That's a little harsh, don't you think? Y'all seem to be reacting as is she is advocating whacking the penis with a baseball bat, instead of lightly tapping with the floppy end of a dressage whip.

Whether I agree or disagree on this doens't matter, I just wanted to point out I think its rather harsh to call GreekRider cruel and antiquated and accuse her of abuse on what has otherwise been an educational thread.

[Fairview Horse Center]

It is no more appropriate to tap/smack a stallion's penis than it is to tap or smack a boy or man's penis for an errection. The PENIS is not doing ANYTHING wrong. The BRAIN needs correction.

Again, these are STALLIONS. We want them to TRUST that we will NOT hurt their penis. They MUST trust us and allow us to handle it.

If someone speeds in their car, you don't punish their gas pedal foot.

A stallion with a dropped penis is NOT doing anything wrong. I have seen stallions win classes with an errection. You just have to laugh. Sooner or later they will figure out that it is not comfortable to flap it around while working.

[Dazednconfused]

Kathy,

YOU seem to be the one that thinks your way is the only way and that tapping is abusive.

In your world, tapping is never ok, and that's fine. But it truly crosses the line to call someone else's method abuse, especially when it WORKS for them and it's not hurting the horse (yes, I know, all these stallions you've worked with have been beaten and so it never works :rolleyes: ). Your method would have not worked with several of the stallions I've dealt with, I can assure you.

Move on already...

[Equine Reproduction]

Kathy,

YOU seem to be the one that thinks your way is the only way and that tapping is abusive.

I said tapping is inappropriate. And, some people consider a good resounding whack a "tap". There are varying levels. Regardless, it is inappropriate and yes, I consider it abusive.

In your world, tapping is never ok, and that's fine.

Not just mine, I can assure you.

But it truly crosses the line to call someone else's method abuse, especially when it WORKS for them and it's not hurting the horse .

Matter of opinion, which is the point of this entire thread. And you're sure it's not hurting the horse? Soring works for what the Tennessee Walker industry is attempting when they want that "big lick". And you speak to any of the walker people that utilize the method and they'll assure you that they're not hurting the horse. There are many levels of "abuse".

(yes, I know, all these stallions you've worked with have been beaten and so it never works :rolleyes: ).

<sigh> You're not listening to what I'm saying. Not all the stallions I have worked with have been beaten, thankfully. I've seen all levels of methods used from a light tap, to squeezing the head of the penis, to taking a riding crop and beating the penis. Depends on the individual stallion in how they will react. Some could care less. You have made it clear you agree with the method so you're certainly not going to subscribe to it as being abusive.

Your method would have not worked with several of the stallions I've dealt with, I can assure you.

How do you know if you don't know what my method would be? I try different methods for different animals. If one method doesn't work, I try another. Sometimes it requires that one think out of the box and develop new methods of training and refocusing. Eventually, one will work. That's the point. There "is" more than one path to reach one's final goal. However the one I will never use, is physically punishing the penis. Period.

Move on already...

I'm merely responding the posts that are made and explaining my perspective. Unfortunate that you would prefer that I "move on". There is no malice in my posts. Just stating it the way I see it and what my experience has taught me. Darlyn made some very good points regarding behaviors and punishment. And, ultimately one must remember that each animal needs to be treated as an individual. But if you expect your stallion to be respectful of you, not fearful of you, behave appropriately at ALL times, including the arena and the breeding shed, then he should be handle with fairness and respect, as well.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com
Check out our spring enrollment special!

[GreekDressageQueen]

I don't have anything more educational to offer, but I will reply to Equine Reproduction concerning my young boy analogy. I, in absolutely no way, meant that we need to spank little boys' penises. Perhaps I forgot to mention that little boys speak and understand English and horses do not. I will try to tell my next stallion "to put it away please" in a nice voice and see if he responds like my little boy would. I was trying to imply that it is very natural for all little boys (human, horses, or otherwise) to play with their penises. However, we all place certain limits on our behaviors. Asking boys to keep their penises under wraps is a response to several posts that suggested we should let a stallion hang it all out whenever he wants - "noodle stretching" is what I think Tamara from TN called it? Quite funny actually. What we disagree is our method in asking a stallion to put it away.

I understand that there are several other ways and methods of dealing with stallions. I still prefer my method. If I ever run into a sensitive stallion that does not respond well to my method I will find another method to use. Are you more angry that your excessively long-winded and preachy posts have yet to change my opinion on what method I choose to use or are you more upset that we do not all agree with you? I agree with a previous post...move on already....

[Equine Reproduction]

I understand that there are several other ways and methods of dealing with stallions. I still prefer my method. If I ever run into a sensitive stallion that does not respond well to my method I will find another method to use. Are you more angry that your excessively long-winded and preachy posts have yet to change my opinion on what method I choose to use or are you more upset that we do not all agree with you? I agree with a previous post...move on already....

<smile>...Not angry. That takes wayyyyy too much energy. Unfortunate that you view the posts as angry and preachy rather than informative and helpful. It's also sad that you are unable to recognize that perhaps, just perhaps there might be other, more effective methods of accomplishing the same goal. I'd like to think that I keep an open mind and am willing to try new methods when introduced to them. God knows, technology and methods are always changing.

Additionally, I'm merely responding to your posts. I find it interesting that you and dazedandconfused feel that I should "move on" but continue to preach that your method is effective and a tried and true training technique, despite having evidence to the contrary. In any event, I've made my point, I have nothing further to add. Hopefully, the OP will not subscribe to your training methods. And, I would hope, for your animals' sake that you would re-evaluate your training methods.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com
Check out our spring enrollment special!

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=GreekDressageQueen;2509487]
Asking boys to keep their penises under wraps is a response to several posts that suggested we should let a stallion hang it all out whenever he wants - "noodle stretching" is what I think Tamara from TN called it? Quite funny actually. What we disagree is our method in asking a stallion to put it away.

QUOTE]

hey a feller has to get some air on that thing :lol: my stallions (and there have been a bunch here over the years and about 6 here now) will stand in the alleyway snoozing while I groom them and just "stretch that noodle"....

there won't be mare one for 1/2 mile or more to the fellers barn....it's not about "mating" it's about relaxing...and in a way I'm kinda flattered that they are comfortable enough around me to not worry about it...I don't worry and they don't worry....

Tamara in TN

[quicksilverponies]

Decided to add my two cents for what its worth. I truly feel that some colts - no matter how well they are handled - will be more difficult than others. I had two colts born last year for example: one is a purebred Welsh B and the other 3/4 Welsh and 1/4 TB. The purebred knew he was a stallion from about 2 months on and began to develop very studdy and inappropriate behavior as a yearling and was recently gelded. The other colt has been a puppy dog since day one and continues to be one. He is destined to be a large pony stallion if he develops the way he should - excellent pedigree, movement, conformation and attitude (so far). It is interesting that both boys were handled exactly the same way and were pastured together since weaning, but their behavior was totally different. My two older purebred stallions, Adagio and Rondo, are perfect gentlemen - turn out with geldings or bred mares and are easy to handle at all times. They are full brothers. I had a former purebred stallion (now a gelding) that was a little monster before gelding. He has wonderful manners now as a gelding:). I am a firm believer that certain bloodlines play a really big part in a stallion's behavior - not just the way they are handled. I will always ask about the behavior of both the dam and sire of any pony I consider to use in my breeding program for that reason.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Kathy,
YOU seem to be the one that thinks your way is the only way and that tapping is abusive.

Even if you don't want to call it abuse, punishing the foot of the speeding driver is stupid to say the least. You may get a stallion to put it away by tapping it, but it doesn't TEACH them anything other than humans hit their penis. The penis does not CAUSE the stallion behavior, it is the RESULT.

It just seems like some of you are too embarrassed by the sight of a penis, that they have to get rid of it. Natural body function. Penis phobia has no place in a stallion handler. Get a mare.

I, in absolutely no way, meant that we need to spank little boys' penises. Perhaps I forgot to mention that little boys speak and understand English and horses do not. I will try to tell my next stallion "to put it away please" in a nice voice and see if he responds like my little boy would. .

I HOPE we have other ways of communicating with a horse without just a whip. Backing, circling, longeing, turn on the haunches, all are great ways of getting a stallion to focus on his trainer. An erection is the RESULT of the focus leaving. Control the mind, the body will follow.

[faranch]

Forgive me, but as lurker who just now registered. Would not "tapping" a stallions penis cause pain. Why would causing pain be a correct way to teach a stallion anything. As a longtime stallionhandler and one who does it for living why would anyone want to do that?

Who out there would consider "tapping" a mare on her vulva when she is displaying estrus in the showring? No one. Why ? People would look at you strange and she would most likely target your head after a couple times. The stallion however dispays much more tolerance for the abuse we pile on his reproductive tract. Just because a penis is larger and easy to see it should not be a target. It has no brain cells and the average stallion drops it out about every 90 minutes for a small round of masturbation. It has been tested and proven that when this is prevented the stallion becomes stressed and frustrated and developes aberrant behavior ( see articles by Dr. Sue Madonnell, New Bolton Center UPenn. )

You do not ear a horse to teach it to like having it ears touched. You do not punish a horse for showing fear of a tarp. Instead you teach the horse that good behavior has a pleasant result. When a gelding puts his penis out do you hit it? No you just move him off and put him back to work. He is not showing poor sexual behavior, just a automatic reflex that is part of his genetic programming. The stallion is more than capable of learning what work is and what sex is. He also learns much faster when it relates to breeding.
Causing pain is abuse and until you can get a average human male with an erection to accept a " tap" instead a soft voice saying "not now dear" it will still be abuse.

Michelle
www.faranch.com

[buschkn]

I would just like to say that I definitely appreciate Kathy's time spent educating us on this forum with all her vast experience, since she sees and deals with way more stallions and various repro issues than probably most of us combined.

I have a new colt and am buying a second to raise with him. I appreciate all the tips, and we will be sure not to give them a tap when they stretch their noodles. :)

[catknsn]

I don't care if their penis is up or down, I expect the same good manners 100% of the time. I don't correct for dropping, but if you think you are going to call out and drag me across the aisle to say hi to a mare, you have another think coming, as our moms used to say.

From what I've seen, turnout with other horses is the #1 ingredient in making a colt a nice, well behaved stallion. The best stallions I've dealt with were ones that pasture bred. It wasn't a novelty to them to be around mares so they didn't act like frat boys at a strip club. You could put them in a 2 horse with a mare and you could trail ride with mares in heat. No problem.

The #2 ingredient in making a nice stallion is training them to ride. Nothing's worse than a beast that only gets out of its stall to mate. Of course it is going to be rank. They need to have jobs that do not involve sex. Even after their official performance career is over, I think it benefits them greatly to be ridden occasionally if not more often.

[GreekDressageQueen]

And, I would hope, for your animals' sake that you would re-evaluate your training methods.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com
Check out our spring enrollment special![/QUOTE]

I had no real problem with these posts until you added that comment and made it way too personal. I take great offense that YOU - some unknown person who could be lying for all we know about who and what you are - would dare say "that for my horses' sake" I re-evaluate my training methods! Are you suggesting that I abuse my horses?! My horses ADORE me and I am an incredibly respected horse person/trainer. Who the hell are you to suggest that my horses are anything but loved, respected, and treated with kindness? Because I do not agree with you about handling stallions under saddle - I deserve such judgment? You don't know me.

Your unprofessional and insensitive remarks discredit you both as a person and as a stallion handler. It's one thing to have an opinion and people will always disagree with that opinion, but it shows a great lack of character, manners, and education when you feel it is necessary to pass judgment and make personal accusations just to "win."

[eqeq]

ER and company,

Can you reference those threads about stallions reluctant to give up vocalizing in company? I'm on one now that can stay "on the aids" and "on task" outwardly, but can't let the chatter go. Have tried ignoring, more complex tasks, time, etc, but he's gotta show soon and I know it won't fly. Have exhausted my toolbox and looking for new ideas...

[Equine Reproduction]

I had no real problem with these posts until you added that comment and made it way too personal.

<sigh>...You take the post out of context. It is NOT an attack on you. I have no doubt that you love your horses. My post was meant as a suggestion that you look at other methods and re-evaulate your training methods and perhaps open your mind to the possibility that maybe, just maybe there were other methods that may accomplish your goal just as effectively. It was NOT a personal attack and it's unfortunate you took it that way.

I'm done with this thread. When it turns into a nasty, personal vendetta, it's time to let it go. There was absolutely nothing in my post that warranted your vitriolic response.

eqeq, IM me and I'll give you some suggestions on methods that may be helpful or start a different thread. This one is beating a dead horse - no pun intended.

Kathy ST.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com
Check out our spring enrollment special!

[Black Forest]

I had no real problem with these posts until you added that comment and made it way too personal. I take great offense that YOU - some unknown person who could be lying for all we know about who and what you are - ."

Excuse me - you do realise you are talking to a world reknown expert on breeding and stallion management, don't you?

No. Evidentally not. I'm in Germany (and anyone using the methods to advokate would be kicked out of every studfarm I have ever been to over here too) and even I know of Kathy.

Get a grip - will you!!??

[Tamara in TN]

Causing pain is abuse and until you can get a average human male with an erection to accept a " tap" instead a soft voice saying "not now dear" it will still be abuse.

Michelle
www.faranch.com

so wheeling and screaming...."it's not Thursday damnit...!! would be ok ?? :lol:

Tamara in TN

[Home Again Farm]

GDQ wrote to ER:I take great offense that YOU - some unknown person who could be lying for all we know about who and what you are - would dare say "that for my horses' sake" I re-evaluate my training methods!

Surely you jest. It is quite simple to discover who Kathy is. Also to know who Fairview is. Me, too, though I have no dog in this fight.

I will give you my own take on bbs. I tend to give more weight to opinions that come from identifiable folks with long records on the books regarding the subject at hand. Anonymous folks are — well — anonymous — and could be doing just what you wrote above — "lying for all we know about who and what you are." :confused:

[faranch]

so wheeling and screaming...."it's not Thursday damnit...!! would be ok ?? :lol:

Tamara in TN

Never. But again, you would not hit a mare in the genitals for wheeling and screaming, " It Thursday NOW damnit" why would you correct a stallion that way ?

Michelle
www.faranch.com

[Janeway]

<smile>...And, I would hope, for your animals' sake that you would re-evaluate your training methods.


and you don't call that personal? It is a definite dig at GreekRider insinuating that she is abusive to her horses. That is what has upset her.

I realize you and others are passionate about this, but surely you could have worded things in a more generic sense - I realize its not obvious to you having written it, but some of your posts were rather "preachey" in tone, and more specifically damning to GreekRider.

I expect you didn't intend it, but that is how it came across. :)

[Tamara in TN]

Never. But again, you would not hit a mare in the genitals for wheeling and screaming, " It Thursday NOW damnit" why would you correct a stallion that way ?

Michelle
www.faranch.com

I was talking about correcting my husband that way....it was a joke :)

Tamara in TN

[Fairview Horse Center]

It is a definite dig at GreekRider insinuating that she is abusive to her horses. That is what has upset her.

I realize you and others are passionate about this, but surely you could have worded things in a more generic sense - I realize its not obvious to you having written it, but some of your posts were rather "preachey" in tone, and more specifically damning to GreekRider.

I would not call Equine Reproduction's posts "preachy". They are VERY informative, and as one of the top professionals in the field in the US, with her husband holding similar credentials in both the US and Canada, her's is not a casual opinion. This is a well researched statement of facts. I would like to see others credentials that are offering advice here to new stallion owners.

When you see or hear of someone doing something to an animal that you know to be abuse, why should anyone be made to feel they are rude if they step up to the plate and politely suggest that they re-think what they are doing to their animals. THANK-YOU KATHY! It IS abuse, totally unnecessary, and does not even address the issue - BEHAVIOR.

[Dazednconfused]

Except it is not abuse. I truly resent the implication I abuse horses because my method is different from yours.

Nobody denies Kathy's knowledge of the subject of stallions & breeding. When it comes to training, however, there will always be clearly divergent methods of handling.

I think you need to get off your high horse and learn that not everyone handles horses in the same way you do - and it doesn't necessarily make it wrong - just different, and equally effective for some horses.

[Black Forest]

Except it is not abuse. I truly resent the implication I abuse horses because my method is different from yours.

Nobody denies Kathy's knowledge of the subject of stallions & breeding. When it comes to training, however, there will always be clearly divergent methods of handling.

I think you need to get off your high horse and learn that not everyone handles horses in the same way you do - and it doesn't necessarily make it wrong - just different, and equally effective for some horses.

Just as you quite rightly say that there are many methods and many are effective others have the right to consider something abusive that you consider perfectly acceptable. There are borderline things that one person thinks fine, some people cringe but accept and others find abusive.

If I ever caught anyone hitting my stallion's penis I sure as hell hope they get theirs out of the way pretty damn sharpish (provided they have one ;)) as the same fate may befall them and we'd soon see how they like it.

I am not sure where "a tap" falls on the scale of abuse - I just know that strangely I or those I really respect have never had to resort to something like that. Maybe I've been lucky? But my stallion was not born with perfect manners either, like every other horse he had to learn them. And if an amateur like me can cope without resporting to such measures then I'm sure in the majority of cases others can too.

[faranch]

I was talking about correcting my husband that way....it was a joke :)

Tamara in TN

Apology - I think that more than one of us has a spouse who is walking and talking with one eye and ear in our direction. Mine who is not completly fluent in english was most confused with why we would consider that with any species :eek: and relieved when he understood this was not something I would consider in equid or homo sapien.

Michelle
www.faranch.com

[Marieke]

(shakes head) I'm sorry I stumbled on this thread.

Working with a horse is a great gift. A gift of trust, respect, joy, and partnership. Working with a stallion multiply all of that.

How can a stallion as a horse trust it's handler when he gets whacked in the penis? Frankly, a mistrusting horse will defend itself and charge, that is the nature of the beast. He will be sub missive, till he feels cornered, then he snaps. ANd who wins that fight? the 1200 lbs or the 150 lbs?

Honestly, if you think you need to control a stallion by 'tapping' the penis, I think you are afraid of them. You might not want to admit it, but I think you are. Because if you are not afraid, why do you feel the need to dominate by questionable methods? And if you don't think it is questionable, it is, and that is an understatement. I don't think you'll find reputable stallion stations or universities that will support this method. There are a lot of well behaved stallions that were trained without this 'tapping'.

Do I find this abuse? Most certainly. Abuse in my book is inflicting unnecessary pain. I can get my horse to pick up his feet while jumping through training, or putting sharp things in his boots. I can keep my stallion focussed through training, or tapping his penis. You can disagree with me, that is just fine. The person that puts sharp objects in also disagrees with me, doesn't mean he doesn't feed his horses, or doesn't care for them.

Why o why is 'noodle stretching' (you are my hero Tamara) such a problem to begin with? Very rarely is this actually a sign of breeding, most of the time it is just relaxing. Mine 'stretch' all the time, usually half asleep on the cross ties. Why is that such an issue?

Where o where is my old 'stud management' book, written by some English man, many moons ago. In that book he said something of the extend that unless you respect the stallion, you will not get the respect.

Just as a curiosity. How many people does it take to collect these stallions? I think Darlyn collects by herself, I know I do most of the time. I have somebody watching in case I need unexpected help (usually with the mare as a matter of fact)

Anyways, you do your thing, I will do mine. In the end I only have the resposibility to my horses. If you think I'm unprofessional because I'm calling to the plate this abusive method, then go right ahead. I'm proud to speak for that.

[faranch]

Except it is not abuse. I truly resent the implication I abuse horses because my method is different from yours.
...I think you need to get off your high horse and learn that not everyone handles horses in the same way you do - and it doesn't necessarily make it wrong - just different, and equally effective for some horses.

In the dark ages - A tight check rein was expected. A stack in a TWH was accepted. A stallion brush was a training tool. Tobacco was used to worm horses, arsenic gave them a shiny coat. Barefoot and pregnant was applied to woman not mares and trepanning was the only form of brain surgery. Each of these has been determined to be outdated and not appropriate anymore. At one time they were considered normal and accepted methods of behavior.

It is true that horses cannot talk. However a female of the species can signal they are not ready for reproduction with a ear or leg movement and a male can ask "please" at 50 paces if he may approach with his nose. Since we can talk and have a couple more brain cells we should be able to learn a way to communicate the same data without risking damage to the one part of his body we paid so much money for and we cannot do without. I do not believe you will find a equine reproduction expert who would support the premise of using the penis as a corrective aid,without adding in the second sentence " people who do that, pay my house payment"

It is not training to "tap" a penis it is ignorance of the risk to the stallions mind and body and ignorance of the future risk to the stallion handler down the road who did not know that swinging a crop idley will trigger a fear from the past and cause that stallion to savage a human.

It is not a personal attack to call this abuse. It CAN CAUSE physical and mental trauma and if one person can learn from this thread then one stallion might live a longer and happier life.

Michelle
www.faranch.com

[bootstraps]

Gee Whiz...does everyone here react to opinions like this? It seems like somebody needs to put their "big girl" pants on.

LOL this statement made by a total unknown, who's only joined the masses a whole 3 days prior...followed by this:

I have lived and ridden in Europe and in the U.S. for over twenty years...

*giggles* This is a gimmick right? At least have the sensibility to lurk more!

Obviously you haven't noticed, but Kathy not only has the knowledge and the experience, but she has the good will to come here and share it so everyone might benefit. She doesn't need to "put her big girl pants on"...she's busy working in them, which I'm sorry to say I've yet to learn exactly what it is you do? Or better yet, who you are?

Kathy is a wealth of knowledge. She's also a business woman. It wouldn't be in her interest to be anything but accomodating. Thankfully that doesn't stop her from voicing what she feels is in-appropriate and the most effective in this line of work. She runs an effective, successfull business. She stands behind her knowledge, is never boastful (and is infact usually very humble) and is eager to help (even though she certainly has no obligation to do so). Implying she generalizes all of her past experiences being at their very worst is ridiculous. *overdramatic eyeroll*

No but seriously...Lurk more!

[cyriz's mom]

Wow, some interesting posts on this thread...some in a good way and some just leave me speechless.

First, GreekDQ, wow, talk about being out of line! Just because you're new to the board, that's no excuse to make the comment about EqRep...and how do we know who she is. For starters, her website and company name are her signature line. Hell, her NAME is in her signature. You're posting anonymously.

And secondly, I would guess that of all the thousand's of people who post on COTH, Kathy is personally known (liked and admired, too, btw) by more other posters than just about anyone else. I may not have written that very clearly (it's getting late), but you get my meaning...hundreds of COTH posters have met her IRL. Literally thousands (she's told me the number, but I forget it, but well over 3,000) have attended one of her and Jos's short courses held across North America over the last few years. She and Jos both spend hours DAILY on the internet and on the phone helping people with all kinds of repro issues (stallions and mares) for FREE. They are respected enough, that their courses are accredited for continuing education credits in a number of states.

Personally, I have had the priviledge (yes, priviledge) to work with her this year a couple of times a week. I drive 200 miles round trip two - three times a week to learn from her. I can't begin to tell you how much I've learned and how much I know I still have to learn. My stallion is happier now that he's ground collecting, his semen is better than it's ever been (and it's always been very good) and I have a higher pregnancy rate AI'ing my own mares than my vet did last year. And I have seen first hand the effects of mishandling on stallions. She had one stallion in for retraining...a very cute QH, who could no longer be collected. The first time we worked with him, it became very clear very quickly...He's a talker (okay, actually a screamer...very loud!!) and whoever had collected him in the past had very clearly whacked him upside the head every time he hollered (mind you he only did this when he knew it was breeding time, he was quiet the rest of the time). So he associated breeding with getting whacked upside the head and didn't want to drop. Within a couple weeks time, we had convinced him that he wasn't going to get hit, that he could talk to the girls and that breeding was a pleasant experience. I can't imagine what a mess he would have been had he been "tapped" on the penis.

To give you the benefit of the doubt here as I for one have not earthly idea who you are or what your credentials are, there are many trainers and/or stallion owners who are not involved in the actual breeding of their stallions and who don't know/realize how some actions/training methods that "work" for show situations create problems in the breeding shed. Quite frankly, standing a stallion in North America is hard on a good day. Add into the mix, a stallion that is difficult in the breeding shed due to "show" training methods and it would seldom be worth the headache to the stallion and the people trying to manage the stallion's breeding career.

I think most of the posters on this thread are stallion owners who are involved not only in their boy's show career, but actively involved in their breeding careers. It gives us a much different perspective than those only involved in showing a stallion. Perhaps that is where the disconnect in the thread is? One can only hope so.

As for my personal feelings about tapping a penis, I agree with all those others who have said address the cause, not the reaction. Stallions truly have a strong sense of fairplay and I know with my guy, if he feels that I've over corrected him for something, he is very offended...and lets me know it. Whether it abuse or not, there are many BETTER ways to handle the issue, IF it NEEDS to be handled. I, too, am also of the mindset of what's the big deal anyway. If he's dropped and standing quietly or otherwise behaving, I could care less if he's bouncing it off his belly. They are a lot smarter than most people give them credit. As long as the HUMANS are consistent with them and their expectations, they figure out the routine quickly and they know if it's breeding time or working time. It didn't take my guy any time at all to figure out how ground collecting worked...he knows EXACTLY what the routine is and at this point, I could collect him alone...he doesn't even need to see a mare, he's a happy camper when he sees the AV! LOL

To Laurie, we got Cyriz as a 3 y.o. Sooooo many people told me that his sweet disposition would change once he started being collected, and then again when we started live covering him. I was very nervous and fully prepared to geld him if he became an idiot. Well, he's 8 now! And I would say that he's perhaps a bit more into his "springtime job", he is still very easy and in fact, a couple weeks ago I hauled him in a two horse side-by-side with a mare who started peeing as she was loaded. After the initial excitement (and who could blame him! LOL), they were fine for a total of 4 hours in the trailer together. I'm guessing that your boy will be okay and won't change much while you're racing him. Good luck with him!

To the OP, you've been given some great insights and people have shared a lot of their personal experience with you. Honestly, he's far too young to have any idea what his personality (let alone his talent and conformation) will be as he matures. Treat him like a horse, be consistent, be fair and hope for the best, but know that some colts become demons when the hormones hit (as has been shared). One piece of great advice I got when Cyriz first came to us, was "treat him like a horse, but never forget he's a stallion." That has served me well, so I pass it on to you.

[GreekDressageQueen]

Isn't this a public forum for horse enthusiasts? I guess I missed the part that I could only express opinions every one else likes and I had to be a certain type of person, with a certain number of postings, with a certain number of credentials to even have an opinion. If that's the case then most of us posting on this forum need to pack it up.

If you want a forum only for "professionals" by "professionals" perhaps you should take it somewhere else. It's unfair to everyone else for you to control what can and can not be discussed and by whom on this forum. :no: There are several people posting here such as children, mothers, fathers, trainers, grandparents, novices, AND professionals - all of our voices are important and our experiences MATTER. Even a 12 year old who might have witnessed something or experienced a training moment has the right to share on this forum without fear of being attacked.

Knowledge is not created nor can it be shared with others when some people attempt to control the flow of information or use their reputation to stifle other viewpoints. Let people decide for themselves if information on this forum is good or bad without personally attacking the person who tries to participate. Nor should anyone here dictate whether a person should be participating at all. Isn't that going just a little too far?

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=GreekDressageQueen;2512682]Isn't this a public forum for horse enthusiasts? Even a 12 year old who might have witnessed something or experienced a training moment has the right to share on this forum without fear of being attacked.
QUOTE]

one of the downsides to "free speech" is that others also have "free speech"...and what ever I post here is open to rebuke,reproof and correction from anyone else....no matter how right or wrong I am ;) and I know this in advance....

if Kathy tells me I'm full of crap, I should think as to "why" she has said this....if she has the habit of being a wankerhead I can dismiss this and go on....if she does not and she corrects me...maybe I should study on this and then dismiss it :winkgrin: I do not take it personally as so many here will/can/have done/do...

you stumbled on a "hot" spot of hers and she has admitted such....her job daily is to manage stallions that could kill her if there is an action that has caused this danger for her in her daily job and she can speak out about it then she should....

as another kind poster mentioned the breeding of a horse and the showing of a horse are maybe two things....I have no interest in showing (I leave that to my friends) so what I say about stallions maybe has no point in the showrings....so then dismiss it....it does not hurt my feelings ;)

Tamara in TN

[bootstraps]

Isn't this a public forum for horse enthusiasts? I guess I missed the part that I could only express opinions every one else likes and I had to be a certain type of person, with a certain number of postings, with a certain number of credentials to even have an opinion. If that's the case then most of us posting on this forum need to pack it up.


You're absolutely correct. No, this is not a forum meant soley for the use of "professionals". But in my opinion you made it personal with you'r coy little jabs about "big girl pants" and the like.

She attempts to keep things as far from personal as possible. Opinions are just that. Opinions. I'm amused that you whine about her making things personal (which she didn't) and then turn around and throw your little fists on the ground like a junior highschooler by replying with your juvenile little jabs about her professionalism, her post being preachy and long winded, and by further implying SHE'S the no name here. Do you have something to prove? Or are you just overly defensive?

It would appear you're more angry that *you've* got someone who not only disagrees with you, but gives a reason as to why. She never implied you abuse your horses. Give me a break and stop reading into things. You keep dropping your credentials and getting snotty about the form of advice you've been given... that's fine. Act like one, you're calling HER unpfrofessional?! LOL.

As I already stated. This forum is open and available to people of all walks. You can be new, old, one of the top in the industry, or completely inexperienced. Kathy tells it like it is. She's not here to step on your toes but she certainly won't hold back the YEARS of experience HANDLING stallions she has. Personally, if I was her, I'd not waste another iota of my energy on responding to you.

[camohn]

I can attest to this being a wonderful course and I highly recommend that ANYONE who works with a stallion of any age take the course. You will come away with some very good tools.
I took it and interestingly the way we were handling Boomer (as my first and to date only stallion) was already just as she taught. Not so much that I was a stallion whiz as to me it was part common sense (just treat the horse like any other horse...no better no worse) and partly our barn setup demanded it. He lived in a barn with mares (as the course teaches better fertility w/ mare exposure) because it is the only barn we have. He had to learn to behave with mares sharing the cross ties 15 feet down the aisle because it is the only barn we have. His pasture was right next to the broodmare pasture with only a hotwire on top. The critters sent a lot on time nicely talking to each other over the fence so I got brave and decided to turn him out with the preggo mares so he could have real friends. He got mildly smacked around and put in his place, everyone settled down and was happy so he lived out with the preggo mares thereafter.He was a very well adjusted stallion.....which I put down to half nature and half his "normal horse" environment. Spring of his 2 YO year was a bit interesting. When he got riled up on the ties when a mare went by he got his chest smacked to back up and I yelled "no..not for you" at him. HE very quickly learned to settle down if I just said "not for you". It had excellent carryover other places too. He went to group clinics with mares in the ring a few times. If he got snorty and puffed up all I had to do was tell him "not for you" and he deflated. So all in all he and I survived "my first stallion" successfully. OF course we miss him with his early death..but the experience was a good one. If the right colt comes along someday I will probably have another stallion and do everything exactly the same.

[coriander]

I've lost patience with the persecuted victim behavior in this thread, and can no longer keep my mouth shut. So here goes.

I don't have credentials in my signature, so those of you who disagree may simply dismiss my opinion: "tapping"/hitting or in any way punishing a stallion on the penis is abuse. It may well cause problems breeding if he gets defensive; some will be much more tolerant than others. It may also create other behavioral issues.

I will offer this caution to those of you who claim to tap without any problems. The day may come when you "tap" the wrong stallion, or the right stallion has lost his sense of humor about "tapping" - and you may find that you have created a monster. You could be very badly injured. Just so you know you're risking yourself with this "training" method as well. Don't say we didn't warn you.

[buschkn]

Again, I am happy to read all the information on this thread. It applies to me now that I have a colt that I intend to leave entire until he either proves his worth or lack thereof. :) And I am happy to hear of other methods to redirect his attention when the hormones come in rather than "tapping" such a sensitive area.

I think GDQ needs to relax and maybe open her mind a little. But from what I have seen thus far that seems unlikely. I am grateful that so many of you on here are willing to share your experiences with us neophytes.

As a funny aside, my boyfriend is very good with the horses but just started really being around them when we started dating 2y ago. When I told him that as Cass grows up we should never "tap" his penis to get him to retract it, he said "I don't even want to touch it, why would I smack it?" Still a little squemish. :) Just like a man to be afraid of another man's "noodle". ;)

[Sonesta]

Amen, Coriander! Well said.

[Ghazzu]

[

As I stated before, deal with the behavior and ignore the penis.

Just so.
As John Hasler says on rec.eq, "punish the behavior, not the body part" (and he's not speaking specifically about this issue.)

[Ghazzu]

YOU - some unknown person who could be lying for all we know about who and what you are -



I can vouch for her.
She's real, she's *extremely* knowledgeable, and, in this matter, IMNSHO, she's *right*.

[rcloisonne]

What Kathy has written is absolutely correct and I very, very much appreciated reading what she wrote! I have owned a stallion who was "tapped" with the end of a nylon lead by a trainer who was adamant a stallion should never drop in the presence of humans.

I was a new owner at the time with no stallion experience. If fact, I had very little experience with horses period. My stallion, a 5 yo at the time, was boarded at a trainer's show barn and was there for training under saddle. This trainer had owned, bred, trained and successfully shown Arabians for most of his life.

One evening I was hand grazing my guy since he was rarely allowed outside which I didn't like. But as a new, inexperienced owner I listened to what I was told by more experienced folk. I'd wait for times when nobody was around because I had it drilled into me that stallions were very dangerous, unpredicable creatures!

Anyway, the stallion was grazing peacefully at the end of the lead (he was always, always a good boy for me). At some point he dropped and his penis was just hanging, not getting aroused or anything. The trainer came over and grabbed the lead from me and "womped" the horse's penis several times and shouted, "never, EVER, let a stallion drop around you!!! EVER!".

I was shocked to say the least and even though a newbie, I felt strongly his act was abusive. I asked him how would he like it if someone did that to him? He said he wasn't a horse and that I was a fool to think you could treat horses and people the same. There was just enough truth to that statement to make me doubt myself. However, we moved.

My stallion was eventually gelded. Not because he wasn't worthy or hard to handle (even for a beginner) but because I couldn't find a humane (IMO) boarding situation for him within daily driving distance. A place where womping and shanking of stallions weren't SOP. Many years later, this horse still refused to drop in front of anyone and required a vet and several cc's of IV ace to do a good cleaning.

So yes, the "tap" method does work but it DOES have serious potential consequences. If this horse had been kept intact and used for breeding, I have no doubt at all he would have been one of the problem guys Kathy mentioned.

[bootstraps]

I just want to clear up that I did not mean to insinuate by my posts that people who don't have fancy signatures and big names to back up their opinions and knowledge should keep to themselves...there are plenty of knowledgable horse people who do nothing more then go for a pleasure ride every now and then. Everyone can learn something from everyone...

[Dazednconfused]

What Kathy has written is absolutely correct and I very, very much appreciated reading what she wrote! I have owned a stallion who was "tapped" with the end of a nylon lead by a trainer who was adamant a stallion should never drop in the presence of humans.

I was a new owner at the time with no stallion experience. If fact, I had very little experience with horses period. My stallion, a 5 yo at the time, was boarded at a trainer's show barn and was there for training under saddle. This trainer had owned, bred, trained and successfully shown Arabians for most of his life.

One evening I was hand grazing my guy since he was rarely allowed outside which I didn't like. But as a new, inexperienced owner I listened to what I was told by more experienced folk. I'd wait for times when nobody was around because I had it drilled into me that stallions were very dangerous, unpredicable creatures!

Anyway, the stallion was grazing peacefully at the end of the lead (he was always, always a good boy for me). At some point he dropped and his penis was just hanging, not getting aroused or anything. The trainer came over and grabbed the lead from me and "womped" the horse's penis several times and shouted, "never, EVER, let a stallion drop around you!!! EVER!".

I was shocked to say the least and even though a newbie, I felt strongly his act was abusive. I asked him how would he like it if someone did that to him? He said he wasn't a horse and that I was a fool to think you could treat horses and people the same. There was just enough truth to that statement to make me doubt myself. However, we moved.

My stallion was eventually gelded. Not because he wasn't worthy or hard to handle (even for a beginner) but because I couldn't find a humane (IMO) boarding situation for him within daily driving distance. A place where womping and shanking of stallions weren't SOP. Many years later, this horse still refused to drop in front of anyone and required a vet and several cc's of IV ace to do a good cleaning.

So yes, the "tap" method does work but it DOES have serious potential consequences. If this horse had been kept intact and used for breeding, I have no doubt at all he would have been one of the problem guys Kathy mentioned.

I agree that is abuse. But that's hitting, beating, "whomping" as you put it. Not tapping. Furthermore, they ARE allowed to drop when going to the breeding shed and they ARE able to learn the difference IME.

I suppose people here would also call me abusive when I slap the muzzle of a horse that bites - actually Fairview said she does this herself on babies that learn to bite (I believe she said it on the "Naughty Foals" thread). Whatever happened to dealing with the behavior and not the part committing the act? :winkgrin::lol: Funny how things change.

The first way to turn someone off, and close their mind - is to insult them and call them abusive. That's a stiff accusation over one very small part of handling that differs. And especially stiff considering none of you have ever seen her handle a stallion, dealt with a stallion she's handled for breeding, or anything else along those lines. You could not POSSIBLY determine if a person was abusive from things posted so far.

I don't blame GDQ for getting upset when she was called abusive. I would and did too. Nobody is holding a knife to your throat to use a particular method, right? I'd hope that the rest of you are smart enough not to take everything someone says as gospel anyway - GDQ or Equinereproduction. Nobody denies the latter person is exceptionally experienced in the handling of breeding stallions - one of the most knowledgeable people on the subject on the board. But there are other people who have worked with many stallions too, have not had bad experiences with the methods they've been taught. I don't worship the alter of ANYONE here, not drinking the kool aide, sorry!

[Ghazzu]

I suppose people here would also call me abusive when I slap the muzzle of a horse that bites - actually Fairview said she does this herself on babies that learn to bite (I believe she said it on the "Naughty Foals" thread). Whatever happened to dealing with the behavior and not the part committing the act? :winkgrin::lol: Funny how things change.


No inconsistency on my part.
I don't smack nippers on the head, either, and discussion on that was the first time I saw the rec.eq quote I referenced earlier.

[Dazednconfused]

That may be, Ghazzu, but there are a legion of people who do (Including FHC who I was referring to where you quoted me). My now three year old gelding went through a nippy stage as most do and he is a well-adjusted, happy horse that doesn't bite, isn't headshy and I really and truly doubt considers me an abuser. I'm sure horses you've dealt with are probably the same way. Different method, different day, different horse. Whatever floats your boat and accomplishes the task! ;)

[Fairview Horse Center]

When a horse bites, they ARE doing something wrong, and the herd will discipline the front end (muzzle, head, neck, etc) of the offensive horse in whatever area they can get to.

I don't know of any mare that when approached by a stallion, and she is not ready to breed, attacks the penis.

When a horse drops, he is not doing ANYTHING wrong. A penis is not offensive, and if it is offensive to a person, they should not own/deal with a stallion or gelding. No Hunter, Dressage, or Combined Training Judges will score ANY less for a horse that is dropped. Heck, Liberty Gold was Grand Champion at Devon, fully dropped and erect in the Championship class with 3 LOVELY ladies. ;) Not a person smacked or tapped him either. He stayed focused, was well behaved, and did his job.

If you don't like the looks of a penis, grow up, or get a mare.

On that note, I am still waiting for the answer of if you would smack or "tap" a mare's vulva if she winks or teases when you are not breeding her. Well?

[bootstraps]

I suppose people here would also call me abusive when I slap the muzzle of a horse that bites - actually Fairview said she does this herself on babies that learn to bite (I believe she said it on the "Naughty Foals" thread). Whatever happened to dealing with the behavior and not the part committing the act? :winkgrin::lol: Funny how things change.

I guess I don't see how slapping a horses muzzle can in anyway be compared whatsoever to "tapping" a stallions penis with a whip...not in the least.

[Tory Relic]

[quote]

one of the downsides to "free speech" is that others also have "free speech"...and what ever I post here is open to rebuke,reproof and correction from anyone else....no matter how right or wrong I am ;) and I know this in advance....

if Kathy tells me I'm full of crap, I should think as to "why" she has said this....if she has the habit of being a wankerhead I can dismiss this and go on....if she does not and she corrects me...maybe I should study on this and then dismiss it :winkgrin: I do not take it personally as so many here will/can/have done/do...

you stumbled on a "hot" spot of hers and she has admitted such....her job daily is to manage stallions that could kill her if there is an action that has caused this danger for her in her daily job and she can speak out about it then she should....

as another kind poster mentioned the breeding of a horse and the showing of a horse are maybe two things....I have no interest in showing (I leave that to my friends) so what I say about stallions maybe has no point in the showrings....so then dismiss it....it does not hurt my feelings ;)

Tamara in TN

Great post, Tamara.

I mostly lurk over here. I don't breed, don't have a stallion, but who knows tomorrow may change that. So I try to let people here educate me. I am thankful for the ones who know what they are doing and do it as a matter of course that are willing to come here and share that knowledge. Just like with general horse care, I would adjust anything I learn to suit my horse's personality and my circumstances.

I do breed Chihuahuas. My male Chi's "put it up" on command. They are not allowed to "hang it out" in the house. I didn't have to whack their willy to get them to do that.

I probably would be less concerned about a stallion letting it all hang out, but if I were, I'd definitely go with the redirect their attention method.

[goodpony]

While I agree with respecting your space, stallions "should" be allowed to call out when they are going to the breeding shed. Discouraging stallion like behavior at all times results in stallions that develop aberrant behavior. They need to be allowed to be boys, but at appropriate times.



ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! If he calls while being worked, it means he's distracted and not focused on you. Therefore, you need to redirect his attention. But punishing him for the behavior is unfair and quite frankly, abusive. Would you punish a mare or gelding for calling out? Of course not. You would attempt to regain their attention.



Oh for God's sake. I can't tell you how weary I get of hearing this kind of abuse from people. Hitting a stallion's penis with ANYTHING is abuse. Period. Plain and simple. If he drops at an inappropriate time, which is relatively common with young stallions, he's not focused on the task at hand. Redirect his attention. I've said it repeatedly in the past, ignore the penis and address the behavior.

Hitting a stallion's penis will result in a stallion that is reluctant to drop when being bred. We get to deal with those stallions way too often. Stallions are supposed to be breeding animals. If you're planning on keeping him a stallion to breed, then learn to handle them appropriately. Otherwise, do everyone a favor and geld him.



Just because it's what you have witnessed definitely doesn't mean it's appropriate or correct.



STallions are individuals and each should be treated as such. Some will have higher libidos than others, some will never be warm and fuzzy kind of guys. However, with that said, a stallion should be treated like any other horse with the same expectations. If your mare or gelding acts like an idiot and is screaming it's head off, you refocus the attention. Same goes for a stallion. If he drops at an inappropriate time, back him up. Keep your hands off of the penis.

I will say again, it's like dealing with a teenage boy. If your son is sitting on the front lawn watching the cheerleaders across the street practice and ends up with an erection, would you take out a whip and hit it? Of course not. You'd probably say, "come on, why don't we go take a bike ride or something". If however, he's sitting on the front lawn screaming at the girls to "Take your shirts off" and other such obnoxious behavior, you'd probably grab him by the ear and have a nice "Come to Jesus" conversation with him about appropriate behavior but you still wouldn't take out a whip and hit his penis with it. Eventually he'll learn to control the urges. Same goes with a stallion. Abuse has no place in handling any animal, but with a stallion even more so. They have an extreme sense of fairplay. Most mean, nasty stallions are NOT born, but are made through inproper handling.

One trainer I know says you're more than welcome to go ahead and take a whip and hit your stallion in the penis when he gets an erection BUT, when you do so, you have to promise that every time your husband or boyfriend gets an erection, you have to hit it with a wooden spoon. See how long "that" relationship lasts. Good point, eh?!

If you're planning on keeping your horse as a stallion, go work at a variety of stud farms and watch how they handle their animals. Remember that just becasue someone does something does NOT mean it's necessarily right or correct. I pick and choose the handling practices I see and use the ones that work and are fair.

With regards to handling your young colt's penis, ignore it. Would you handle it more if you were dealing with a gelding? Of course not. When it comes time to train him to the breeding mount, any facility that works with stallions and establishes good breeding practices, will make washing the penis part of the entire process. There's no need to have any kind of previous "training" as the boys figure out pretty darn fast what it's all about and what they must do to get from point "A" to point "B".

Hope that helps!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com
Check out our spring enrollment special!


Hi Kathy,
I just wanted to say how much I enjoy reading your posts and wanted to say I do practice and agree with nearly all that you've written. I have two pony stallions and work hard to ensure their happyness and produce solid citizens of them both (both on and off the farm). Thank you so much for sharing your ideas and experiences here in this forum.

[ljshorses]

I must say I was shocked when I read this thread!!!

First, I don't stand a stallion but have a teaser and he never has his penis whacked, tapped, rubbed, twisted, shoved, yanked....or any other thing anyone could possibly think of doing with a penis, lol. He was bred this year to a pony mare and his temperament has not changed one bit, but then his handling hasn't either. I haved owned him since he was 2yo and he is a 4yo now. He has a pasture friend that is a mini donkey and she is a girl and lets him know when he's out of line. He shares fencelines with mares, geldings, foals etc... I have stood stallions way in the past and they were all treated the same as well. But, I do know of some that their hormones are too overwhelming and yes they then are dangerous and in my opinion should be gelded, plain and simple. Trust me, you will know which stallions these are and there will not be a question about it.


The only thing I may disagree with is how to redirect their focus. I think this really depends on the individual and that goes for stallions, mares geldings etc... Some need a stronger hand but hurting genitals should not be used as punishment for bad behavior. When my boy gets mouthy when it's not teasing or breeding time he is reprimanded just as my mares and geldings are. Usually just changing my voice tone to (I am told my "mean" voice can be intimidating, at least that's what my husband says,lol)a much firmer angry voice is all that is needed, sometimes using a chain shank or a smack on the neck is needed. As for swinging penises in stallions and geldings, well if they are in-hand just backing them up a few steps quickly usually does the trick...while under saddle, reversing or talking to them actually can do the trick, again just redirecting the focus in a way that works best for you and your boy which doesn't require an all out penis attack works best. But I agree that horses screaming at shows is annoying and can be disruptive to others and it is best to teach them that at certain times in their lives it's not acceptable to scream their heads off.

As I tell my kids "there is a time and place for everything" and if it's not an appropiate time or place then the behavior needs to be addressed. Adressing it though does not mean abuse. Firmness and fairness is important.

[class]

I suppose people here would also call me abusive when I slap the muzzle of a horse that bites - actually Fairview said she does this herself on babies that learn to bite (I believe she said it on the "Naughty Foals" thread). Whatever happened to dealing with the behavior and not the part committing the act? :winkgrin::lol: Funny how things change.

nah, you've got it all wrong. when a horse bites you, you should tap him on his TEETH with a whip. and if he kicks you, try tapping just his hoof with a whip. :rolleyes: see how idiotic the whole idea is?

i fully condone that if a stallion ever actually attempts to inflict bodily harm on you WITH his penis, then you can tap his penis as a correction. but why would you be tapping on his penis simply because he is not paying attention to you? it makes no sense.

what should i do when my gelding isn't paying attention to me but he has no penis to hit? should i poke him in the eye to get him to pay attention to me? maybe when he pricks his ears at something more interesting than me i should tap his ears with a whip?

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

Well, I certainly hope that your gelding still has a penis. Without it, he might be at a slight disadvantage.

That aside, and all of this ridiculous advice about punishing penises (and it really is NO DIFFERENT than punishing a 2 year old child in the same manner for touching himself inappropriately in public), when my boyfriend came home from work today, this thread was open on my laptop. He had a very concerned look on his face before I asked what was wrong. Rather than explain away the crazies here who actually think it appropriate to "TAP" (haha, nice term) a stallions genitals when he becomes MENTALLY distracted, I told him I brought my whip over from the states in May, so he'd better watch out. I think he's quite confused now :c).

[class]

true, true. my gelding still actually does have a penis. but it is such a hassle to try to stick the end of whip up his sheath and try to tap it, i was wondering if the eye-poking could work similarly to the penis tapping in his case.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

I do briefly want to add that while I have no problem when either of my geldings drops in front of me or around people, it IS sometimes an issue when dealing with random drug tests at rated shows. An otherwise alert gelding with an exposed, flacid penis raises red flags with the testers (meaning not a relaxed, leg cocked, eyes half shut horse). I am only putting in my 2 cents having heard this from one who regularly collects urine/blood for USEF drug tests. That being said, if you're willing to subject your horse to drug tests (which you should be if you're at USEF sanctioned shows), the penis is a non-issue. And this would most likely not be such a concern on a stallion.

[Kelly G]

Okay, so I see this has very much turned into one of THOSE threads :yes:. I stopped reading this thread at page 4, so don't know how much I've missed out on since, but the first thing I have to say is that if we women have a chat with the guys we know we just might find out that unlike the scrotum, apparently the penis of human males is not particularly sensitive, except at the tip, so I'd imagine the same would probably apply to stallions? Next, sorry but I really have to disagree with the analogy that you shouldn't reprimand [or rather, bring attention to] the actual offending area in this sort of instance, because I personally believe that's exactly what you should do with any animal who doesn't understand english [or german, dutch or flemish] fluently. If a horse goes to kick I'll lightly tap the leg and say "no", if it goes to nip I'll lightly tap the side of the muzzle and say "no", if it swishes the tail out of agitation I'll lightly tap the tail and say "no", and so on. I believe personally that reprimanding [bringing attention to] any area other than the offending one simply isn't specific enough, and isn't as clearly understood by the horse. BUT, having said that, that unless we're talking extremes of bad behaviour, such as a deliberate and viscious bite, I'm definitely only talking a light touch/tap the offending area. The actual punnishment is the verbal command/mannerism that comes along with the touch/tap, the touch/tap simply being a way of bringing the horse's attention to exactly what spot it is that's in some way offending. Now, I hope I've been clear enough about what I mean by a light touch/tap, ie something rather akin to a firm momentary touch? As to the notion of how bad or otherwise this is to do with a stallion's penis, well if a stallion of mine were getting a little preoccupied with his genitals and getting a tad full of himself [as opposed to letting the ol guy hang out while relaxing], my first resort would be to redirect the stallion's attention back onto the subject at hand, whatever that may be, rather than a "bad penis" approach. But, having said that, if one had a stallion who was hell bent of dropping for all the wrong reasons at all the wrong times I honestly can't see that it would do too much harm to use a "touch/tap" the penis and say "no" technique to bring the stallion's attention to that part of their anatomy and saying this is inappropriate at this time, just like doing the same with the leg that's going to kick or the mouth that's trying to graze at the wrong moment, and I do feel that doing so would be no more abuse than touching the afformentioned leg or muzzle the same way. In fact, twenty years ago, that was definitely the only common way of dealing with the problem here in Aus, and when I took my stockhorse stallion to the Royal show back then and he decided to let it all hang out [which he'd never tried to do at a show before], a friend did actually lightly tap it to tell him to put it away. He immediately did, and it certainly didn't have a negative effect on his behaviour or his masculinity thereafter. Perspective, I think, though, and care taken in how it's done. If it's issued like a punnishment, it's got potential risk, but if issued like a "hey, see this, now's not the time for it to be out" it's a training tool, like any other.
Kelly.:)

[Equine Reproduction]

...the first thing I have to say is that if we women have a chat with the guys we know we just might find out that unlike the scrotum, apparently the penis of human males is not particularly sensitive, except at the tip, so I'd imagine the same would probably apply to stallions?

No. While the glans of the penis on the stallion are extremely sensitive, as in the human male, there are other portions that are extremely sensitive, as well - the preputial ridge, for example. And, like most things, there are individual variations. Some stallions are much more sensitive than others and will require varying degree of stimulation in order to ejaculate.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com
Check out our spring enrollment special!

[Dazednconfused]

Okay, so I see this has very much turned into one of THOSE threads :yes:. I stopped reading this thread at page 4, so don't know how much I've missed out on since, but the first thing I have to say is that if we women have a chat with the guys we know we just might find out that unlike the scrotum, apparently the penis of human males is not particularly sensitive, except at the tip, so I'd imagine the same would probably apply to stallions? Next, sorry but I really have to disagree with the analogy that you shouldn't reprimand [or rather, bring attention to] the actual offending area in this sort of instance, because I personally believe that's exactly what you should do with any animal who doesn't understand english [or german, dutch or flemish] fluently. If a horse goes to kick I'll lightly tap the leg and say "no", if it goes to nip I'll lightly tap the side of the muzzle and say "no", if it swishes the tail out of agitation I'll lightly tap the tail and say "no", and so on. I believe personally that reprimanding [bringing attention to] any area other than the offending one simply isn't specific enough, and isn't as clearly understood by the horse. BUT, having said that, that unless we're talking extremes of bad behaviour, such as a deliberate and viscious bite, I'm definitely only talking a light touch/tap the offending area. The actual punnishment is the verbal command/mannerism that comes along with the touch/tap, the touch/tap simply being a way of bringing the horse's attention to exactly what spot it is that's in some way offending. Now, I hope I've been clear enough about what I mean by a light touch/tap, ie something rather akin to a firm momentary touch? As to the notion of how bad or otherwise this is to do with a stallion's penis, well if a stallion of mine were getting a little preoccupied with his genitals and getting a tad full of himself [as opposed to letting the ol guy hang out while relaxing], my first resort would be to redirect the stallion's attention back onto the subject at hand, whatever that may be, rather than a "bad penis" approach. But, having said that, if one had a stallion who was hell bent of dropping for all the wrong reasons at all the wrong times I honestly can't see that it would do too much harm to use a "touch/tap" the penis and say "no" technique to bring the stallion's attention to that part of their anatomy and saying this is inappropriate at this time, just like doing the same with the leg that's going to kick or the mouth that's trying to graze at the wrong moment, and I do feel that doing so would be no more abuse than touching the afformentioned leg or muzzle the same way. In fact, twenty years ago, that was definitely the only common way of dealing with the problem here in Aus, and when I took my stockhorse stallion to the Royal show back then and he decided to let it all hang out [which he'd never tried to do at a show before], a friend did actually lightly tap it to tell him to put it away. He immediately did, and it certainly didn't have a negative effect on his behaviour or his masculinity thereafter. Perspective, I think, though, and care taken in how it's done. If it's issued like a punnishment, it's got potential risk, but if issued like a "hey, see this, now's not the time for it to be out" it's a training tool, like any other.
Kelly.:)

I completely and totally agree with you. Very well said.

[Waterwitch]

if one had a stallion who was hell bent of dropping for all the wrong reasons at all the wrong times I honestly can't see that it would do too much harm to use a "touch/tap" the penis and say "no" technique to bring the stallion's attention to that part of their anatomy and saying this is inappropriate at this time, just like doing the same with the leg that's going to kick or the mouth that's trying to graze at the wrong moment, and I do feel that doing so would be no more abuse than touching the afformentioned leg or muzzle the same way.

The problem with this approach is that dropping/erection is a physiological response, not an intentional action. That is why you must deal with the brain, not the penis. To do otherwise is illogical.

[Sonesta]

I have just informed my husband that his "member" will get a nice tap the next time it "drops" at any time other than when I okay it. He was not pleased. I think I will definitely pay for that comment.

[GreekDressageQueen]

I completely and totally agree with you. Very well said.
Ditto.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

This is plain funny at this point. These are ANIMALS! Not people! They don't make the complex connections within their brain that you "tappers" expect them to make in ABUSING your horse's genitals! Tapping/swatting/whopping/spitting at an erection doesn't make the horse think, "Gee, maybe I shouldn't have an erection right at this moment", it makes the horse associate breeding behavior with pain. As much as you'd all like to think your equines are the einsteins of the 4 legged world, the truth of the matter is that they aren't. I don't care who's offended by me saying this "tapping" nonsense is abuse- I'm offended that someone in their right mind would think it OKAY to use such antiquated and CRUEL practices to teach a horse anything. So go on tapping, I'll go on calling it cruelty to animals. Slapping anything on the genitals as a form of punishment sounds like torture. And that's exactly what it is.

[Kelly G]

You're right FFTEH, this is nonsense! I understand exactly what Kathy's concern is with this, that fine line that so easily [and I dare say, maybe even so often?] gets crossed, which could obviously seriously mess with a stallion's natural urge to breed. But, to say a stallion can't be taught carefully and systematically NOT to drop at inappropriate times [by a touch/tap and say "no" technique] and to freely drop at appropriate times [using praise, etc] is nonsensical. Obviously though, because of the nature of the area in question, it's something that would certainly need enormous care when teaching so as not to mess with the stallion's instincts, which would not only be cruel, but would also pretty much defeat the purpose of keeping a stallion entire in the first place.

The reason I felt like I needed to say something when I read this post is because here we are again, calling people things like abusive for something without even knowing exactly what it is they're doing. I wonder how many of us have tapped a friend on the shoulder when we come up behind them, to let them know we're there? Or, if we're in a noisy place, tapped their wrist to ask about the time? I'd imagine most of us have , I have, and I certainly don't feel particularly abusive when I do it :no:. Before we go name calling, why on earth can't we first ASK what someone means by the word TAP, before assuming the worst, just out of polite common curtesy? Because, frankly it's more than a little out of line to throw words like abuse around without first knowing what's being described. If people are actually hitting their stallion's penis, then no doubt that's pretty dodgy [As I'd mentioned, though, penises can apparently be largely insensitive. I remember two years ago when Cortes was sent to a supposedly good trainer to bring him back into work, and one of that trainer's training techniques was to hit his penis whenever he dropped, which was not just unacceptable to me, but completely ineffective on Cortes, who rather liked it. For that and a lot of other reasons, the trainer was a jerk, and I'd never uses him again], but if what's being described is tapping in the real sense rather than hitting, as a cue rather than a punishment, well in the wrong hands it could no doubt be a pretty ineffective training tool, but to call that abuse would be a gross exaderation.

Kelly.:)

[Bravestrom]

Just going to try to change the tone on this a bit - since I started this thread.

My blacksmith came to the barn today and I always get him to look at the youngsters as soon as possible - He has a great eye and I like to make sure that there is nothing he wants to work on prior to the usual 3 month first visit.

His jaw dropped when he saw the foal.

Firstly - we brought the colt out of the field on a halter - walking beside our barn girl with absolute grace and manners. Took him outside of the field from mom - mom just stood in the field munching away and he just relished all the attention.

Stood like a pro for the farrier - didn't neigh, didn't get upset - he is just 5 weeks old - almost.

Farrier said that this is an outstanding colt - his legs are perfect and he is built totally uphill. He said he has never seen such a beautiful, intelligent foal with such great chrome. The foal stood still while he lifted up his feet and didn't try to nip or anything. He was a perfect gentleman.

I know you will all say - yeah but he is only five weeks old. Well I say ha!!

I own this baby's uncle and he is the reason we have this baby - I bought the sister for that reason. This is an intelligent foal that loves people - I know time will still tell. He has learned that biting is not acceptable - not that he won't do it again sometimes but he does know - I work with him about an hour each day in total - when mom eats dinner he is separated from her - He is lead around and to and from the field twice a day. I go out to the field and call him - he comes running - I can play with his nose, touch him every where, including his penis - and he is very accepting.

I have a yearling that was trimmed today too - while she still has the occasional foot pull, for the most part she stands very well - I spend a lot of time hands on with our horses and the training is very consistent - I think that is very important.

Anyway - just wanted to lighten this up a bit.

[Kelly G]

prodomus, don't you think it's time you posted some pics of your little boy for us all to see :winkgrin:??? I, for one, am getting pretty darn curious about what a lovely baby he sounds like. Seriously, by the way, I love the sound of the general way you're handling he and your other youngsters. Sounds like a lovely basis so start from.
Kelly.:)

[Bravestrom]

I have only first pictures - I have to take some new ones - you may see him - his name is prospect's bravestrom on a page I have with some of my other horses.

THe first horse shown is the uncle. Bravestrom is only one day old in that picture.

www.hotelfun4kids.com/horses.htm

He looks so different already.

I will see if I can post a couple more shortly.

[GreekDressageQueen]

BEAUTIFUL Horses! :yes::yes::yes:

[Kelly G]

He does look really lovely. I actually remember seeing the photo of you on his uncle on another thread a while back, and thinking how much I liked the look of his uncle. I can see why you'd be so excited about this little guy's prospects, with that cross.
Kelly.:)

[Sandra6500]

I'm jumping in sort of late here and will admit that I stopped reading about mid page 5.

I would guess that people are arguing so passionately about this subject since its fairly important and getting into a bit of a "danger zone". Everyone is welcome to an opinion and can certainly give it, unfortunately unlike the training forum where bad advice might get a bad score on your dressage test mishandling a stallion can get you killed.

I do not own not have I owned a stallion but I have handled plenty and currently deal with 6 of them on the TB farm where I help out. I can tell you that without a doubt that at least two of those stallions wouldn't take kindly to having their penis even lightly tapped. These horses wouldn't offer to take you out they WOULD take you out. I would be a thin coating of human on the ground.

I don't know why anyone would risk creating a dangerous stallion. Treatment like some people describe might not create a dangerous stallion but if it does you are in a world of trouble. Having handled some truly dangerous stallions I can tell you its no fun at all.

Some stallions might tolerate and even respond to that sort of treatment, some might "only" have it affect them in the breeding shed... But stallion handling gone wrong is an ugly ugly thing. Not everyone has the best judgement when handling these horses.

[GreekDressageQueen]

I find it very interesting that there is a thread on the Horse Care discussion group talking about putting marbles in a mare's uterus and stapling mare's ears to keep their heat cycles (or whatever the reason for it) manageable. It has not received the same attention as "tapping" a stallion's penis nor are these practices considered "abuse." :confused:

[Fairview Horse Center]

Inserting a marble just makes the mare's body stop cycling like she is pregnant - not abusive at all. Stapling an ear to me is just horrible.

[philosoraptor]

stapling mare's ears to keep their heat cycles (or whatever the reason for it) manageable. It has not received the same attention as "tapping" a stallion's penis nor are these practices considered "abuse."

Where is the ear stapling thread?

I did see the marble thread. It's not abusive because it's not punishment. Now if you threw marbles at her head every time she winked, THAT would be abuse. :D

[Fairview Horse Center]

I am still waiting to see if the people that punish a stallion's penis also punish a mare's vulva by tapping that with a whip for teasing.

[faranch]

I find it very interesting that there is a thread on the Horse Care discussion group talking about putting marbles in a mare's uterus and stapling mare's ears to keep their heat cycles (or whatever the reason for it) manageable. It has not received the same attention as "tapping" a stallion's penis nor are these practices considered "abuse." :confused:

I do believe that if you inserted a marble into the penis or stapled it, it would be considered abuse, allthough it would decrease the possibility of him dropping while you were around.

Michelle, www.faranch.com (awwc)


PS. I too await the repsonse from the mare tapping crowd

[GreekDressageQueen]

Where is the ear stapling thread?:D

It is in the marble thread - someone responded to the OP that her vet stapled her mare's ears instead of using a marble or Regumate.

[bootstraps]

I find it very interesting that there is a thread on the Horse Care discussion group talking about putting marbles in a mare's uterus and stapling mare's ears to keep their heat cycles (or whatever the reason for it) manageable. It has not received the same attention as "tapping" a stallion's penis nor are these practices considered "abuse." :confused:

I guess it's just your bad luck that you've posted in a forum dedicated to the sole purpose of reproduction...I can't imagine why people who're generally interested in this topic would hang out primarily in a forum with "Breeding" in it's title.

I will admit however, that I've become more and more amused at the goings on in this thread. Good thing you've got at least a moderately comperable offensive topic to distract the masses from your spotlight...eh?

I guess I've been meaning to ask throughout this whole thread...

Is "tapping" his penis meant to "refocus" him? Or is meant to be uncomfortable? I just asked a guy I know. He says "There's nothing about "nicely tapping" that refocuses HIS thoughts.." Good lord. It's either meant to be nice or it's meant to hurt.

I don't see why there's such a hullabaloo about using other methods to refocus...oh but on with the marbles!

[Beezer]

No. While the glans of the penis on the stallion are extremely sensitive, as in the human male, there are other portions that are extremely sensitive, as well - the preputial ridge, for example.

Good lord. I soooooooooo need to get my eyes checked. I read that as prenuptial and wondered: Since when did a stallion need one of those?? :lol: :eek: :lol:

Don't own a stallion. Never have, never want to. But eons ago, my trainer had a stud and used the "punish the peepee" approach. Thanks to the reasoned statements of Kathy and others here, I can certainly see why that would be an incorrect and harmful approach.

THANKS for educating this mare owner!! :yes: Do I still need to sign the prenup?? :confused:

[carnivalhill]

Just wondering, in my newbie way, what type of mare would be a good cross for a Clyde/Hackney/Swedish warmblood? What could one expect to produce, and with what degree of reliability? Seems like there is already quite a bit in the mix, what would/should you add, and to what end?

[~Freedom~]

Just wondering, in my newbie way, what type of mare would be a good cross for a Clyde/Hackney/Swedish warmblood? What could one expect to produce, and with what degree of reliability? Seems like there is already quite a bit in the mix, what would/should you add, and to what end?


A Shetland/foxtrotter/TB/arab would do just nicely.:lol:

[Bravestrom]

while that is off topic - as most of this thread has gone haywire anyway from what I originally asked and has become a penis obsessed thread, that is a question for a mare owner to decide once he develops and you see what his strengths are.

My thoughts on it would be that - already knowing what his father is like and his mother and uncle - their calmness, intelligence and ease to handle as well as bone and jumping ability as well as movement- and lord knows, I like a lot of bone, I would think that tbs would be ideal choices to breed him too - but that is jmo. Do you know that a hackney horse holds the world record for jumping height?

I do plan to breed him to a couple of my mares in the future as well.

I am into breeding draft crosses and if you search you will find a very long thread on why I am doing this and pros and cons. I don't want to draw this into this thread as it is well argued in the other but since you asked.

and to freedom - when you do that breeding - put the saddle on backwards.

[clint]

A Shetland/foxtrotter/TB/arab would do just nicely.:lol:

Or a majikal gypsy vanner.:D

[caffeinated]

hmph, you all are missing the boat, it's all about the Georgian Grandes.

[Astraled]

Prodomus, you are a very nice and patient person. I hope your baby turns out be everything you wanted.

[rainechyldes]

Just wondering, in my newbie way, what type of mare would be a good cross for a Clyde/Hackney/Swedish warmblood? What could one expect to produce, and with what degree of reliability? Seems like there is already quite a bit in the mix, what would/should you add, and to what end?

I have no idea, since I can't for the life of me even figure out why this colt isn't booked for the gelding shed. We have enough grade horses around already, why bring more into the mix?

[Bravestrom]

You are right - you don't have any idea - not every horse has to be a purebred and frankly I find most full bloods have attributes that I greatly dislike.

Every horse is a grade if you want to look at it closely - its just that the same type of grade is bred over and over again to produce like qualities. I know I am going to hear about this one but since you don't know the horses we have, haven't worked with them and don't do what we do with them you don't have any idea.

Not everyone has to follow everyone elses beaten path. Maybe I am looking for something that will prove to be awesome - you don't know - and in any event I have never been one to follow the norm.

If I wanted to I could definitely breed hanos or any of the other warmbloods - but I don't want that.

We have carefully chosen these particular clyde/hackney crosses and carefully chosen the warmbloods we breed them to for specific reasoning. I am not going to get into it here because I am starting to fume - I only asked about stallion handling tips - not what you thought of my colt's breeding.

[rainechyldes]

Reitted to remove the post, cuz I've decided it's not really all that important who breeds what anymore. Have at er and enjoy.

[Bravestrom]

I reiterate - I just asked for tips on handling a stallion - not what anyone thought of my colt or what we have going here.

Again, you haven't seen or handled any of our horses and you don't know.

And as a matter of fact there is a market for draft crosses - there is even a move to have them registered and an association for that. Aussies are also really interested in draft crosses.

But now I am going off topic and have already hashed this out in another forum topic - plus I am getting frustrated with this.

Please - just tips on handling - that is all I asked for.

[Sandra6500]

I only asked about stallion handling tips - not what you thought of my colt's breeding.

I guess she's telling you to handle him for the vet to be gelded. But I suppose you're right... one can never have enough unpapered grade horses around.

[Ghazzu]

Every horse is a grade if you want to look at it closely - its just that the same type of grade is bred over and over again to produce like qualities.

Bingo. You said it yourself.
The key concept is the ability to predict roughly what the resulting offspring will be like.

[class]

If I wanted to I could definitely breed hanos or any of the other warmbloods - but I don't want that.

of course you don't. what, with all that pesky inspection stuff and registration stuff, all of the "breed standard" hullabaloo - what a hassle.

[GreekDressageQueen]

As the proud owner of two Irish Draught/TB crosses myself - I like draft crosses and think it is an excellent option for people who can't afford/don't like/won't pay for the fancy warmbloods. I think the price of warmbloods in the States has become absolutely ridiculous - $10,000-$15,000 for a baby! :eek: -so there needs to be another option for every day people.

I am particularly interested in the addition of the hackney blood in Prodomus' horses. I have never seen that before but I imagine the hackney (as opposed to using Arab blood) lightens the draft influence and provides better movement with a sounder mind. I would like to learn more about that breeding philosophy. :yes:

In the end, I don't care if the horse is papered or not as long as they can perform. My mare is imported from Ireland and she is papered with the British Horse Society, but not with the Irish Horse Board. The "officials" couldn't confirm her dam line so she only received breeding stock papers. But she was a Grade B showjumper so what do I care if there were no papers? I bought her for the jump, not the paper and she proved herself quite worthy regardless. In my opinion, having papers is useful when trying to sell a horse for more money than he/she is worth or to people who are too inexperienced to know good horse flesh when they see it. :)

[CuriosoJorge]

I am particularly interested in the addition of the hackney blood in Prodomus' horses. I have never seen that before but I imagine the hackney (as opposed to using Arab blood) lightens the draft influence and provides better movement with a sounder mind. I would like to learn more about that breeding philosophy. :yes:

Have you ever actually SEEN a hackney show horse or pony? They are cute little devils, but devils they are. I wouldn't infuse hackney blood into ANYTHING with the goal of improving the temperament.

[Tamara in TN]

Have you ever actually SEEN a hackney show horse or pony? They are cute little devils, but devils they are. I wouldn't infuse hackney blood into ANYTHING with the goal of improving the temperament.

I was told the same things about Welsh and got them anyway....Hackneys are still common here...they are not coma quiet but far from Devils

Tamara in TN

[Bravestrom]

These are bred with hackney horse - not hackney pony - that is comparing apples and oranges - anyway they are also crossed with clydes and until you have dealt with these crosses you don't know. In addition - the hackney horses that are the fathers of these crosses are north american champions.

Getting off topic again.

By the way - the colt will be registered - a registered Canadian Sport Horse as his mother - clyde/hackney - is approved as a foundation mare under csha and the father is a csha registered stallion as well as swedish warm blood.

I forgot to mention that

[Bravestrom]

These are bred with hackney horse - not hackney pony - that is comparing apples and oranges - anyway they are also crossed with clydes and until you have dealt with these crosses you don't know. In addition - the hackney horses that are the fathers of these crosses are north american champions.

Getting off topic again.

By the way - the colt will be registered - a registered Canadian Sport Horse as his mother - clyde/hackney - is approved as a foundation mare under csha and the father is a csha registered stallion as well as swedish warm blood.

I forgot to mention that

I have met the stallion and he is a very well mannered stallion - the hackney horse - some people work them up to a state when they show but it doesn't mean they are always like that. I actually had a hackney pony as a child and he was pretty calm too.

[Waterwitch]

I've seen some pretty nice Hackney Horse crosses. Also, wasn't John Williams' 4* event horse Carrick mostly TB with a dash of Clyde/Hackney Horse?

[Bravestrom]

They are really becoming popular - particularly in eventing, dressage and fox hunting.

Many of my horse's siblings and cousins are now doing this. My son events a mare as well and I have another 4 yr old currently under training - she is a sale project but is coming along so nicely we may just keep her.

[Kelly G]

Gee, this is a pompous world in which we live! Promodus, as someone else said, you've truly been as patient as a saint throughout this thread. Re the training of your little guy, a good thing to keep in mind as he matures, I think, is to make sure you always balance out the degree of freedom you choose to give him with an equivalent degree of discipline, the more freedom he's allowed, the more discipline he needs. So, when it's freedom time, let him play, and really allow him to be a horse, but when play time's up and it's work time, it's work time, and he should be respectful and polite. Colts and stallions adapt to that way of training beautifully, they have a huge appreciation of fairness and are happy to accept you as the alpha and be respectful if treated with understanding and fairness. With the cross you've opted to breed, rather than simply choosing and sticking with a particular pure breed, done well I think it has the potential to be a really exciting cross and I applaud you for doing it. Apart from the fact that clever crosses have produced some really outstanding competition horses over the years, the careful infusion of the right outside blood has obviously also been responsible for helping to steadily improve many breeds as well.
Kelly.:)

[TXDressur]

My stallions always back up to me for a tail scritch, and I never have to worry about bending over :confused:

WRONG! NEVER punsih his penis. He is allowed to drop anytime he wants - period, as long as his behavior does not change. Severe punishment of stallions it the best way to turn them rank.

I demand nothing more of them than I would any horse.




I agree, you shouldn't punish weiner dangling... I know of 3 stallions in particular from 2 different trainers that used to literally slap the crap or KICK their stallions in training when they weiner dangled. Really NICE stallions, excellent pedigrees, wonderful personalities, etc. However, these 3 stallions stopped breeding. They had learned if they extended they'd be punished, so they ignored the mares presented to them to cover. Owners were very angry and upset-- finally vet suggested Viagra until the stallions got their drives back. It worked but it was expensive, and cruel treatment from the trainers.

[Dazednconfused]

I agree, you shouldn't punish weiner dangling... I know of 3 stallions in particular from 2 different trainers that used to literally slap the crap or KICK their stallions in training when they weiner dangled. Really NICE stallions, excellent pedigrees, wonderful personalities, etc. However, these 3 stallions stopped breeding. They had learned if they extended they'd be punished, so they ignored the mares presented to them to cover. Owners were very angry and upset-- finally vet suggested Viagra until the stallions got their drives back. It worked but it was expensive, and cruel treatment from the trainers.

That I would never do and I don't think any sensible human being would condone :no::(

[TXDressur]

The Viagra or the punishing the stallions by kicking and slapping their penises for dangling??? I don't condone either, but not my horses so I didn't really have much say in it... makes me angry that people think it's okay to treat animals like that :no:

[Ladybug Hill]

I think the colt in question is very cute. The OP sounds like a good horse person. Hope that everything works out for her.

I hope that most readers here will value Kathy's contributions. People have and would pay money to get the kind of advice she gives out here. Her advice may come across very adamantly, but she is probably a huge advocate for proper stallion training due to having to deal with so many manmade behavior problems in stallions. It is hard not to be animated on the subject when you have seen the consistent results of incorrect training. With the number of horses that she has worked with, how can anyone argue with this knowledge. Most evidence presented here is just anecdotal because of the smaller numbers of stallions handled by these people (1-20). Kathy is nearly a research project in herself with the sheer quantitiy she has handled.

I certainly have learned quite a bit from this thread. And it has confirmed the stuff that I have learned over the last 30 years. I have handled some dangerous stallions myself and would hope that anyone raising/training a stallion would follow the sound advice of a true expert like Kathy in order to prevent the possible creation of more dangerous stallions. It is so unfair to the horse and so very dangerous for the handlers.

[siegi b.]

I whole-heartedly agree with Kathy and Darlyn on this thread..... Having owned a stallion and having had that stallion mishandled with the "tapping method", I know what problems that can create in the breeding shed.

I'm sure there is some kind of psychological explanation as to why it bothers some people so to see the stallion's penis. Just because you have a hang-up about genitals doesn't mean that horses share your view! Animals don't have prude parents that teach them to always cover up and so they let it hang out on occasion. It doesn't mean that they will rape you right then and there and it's certainly not offensive to any of the other horses, so get over it.

A well-producing stallion is happy and - on occasion - exuberant without hurting his handler. What's so wrong with that? I strongly suggest for people that have a problem with that to get professional treatment for their own psychological hang-ups and not project their problems onto their boys.

[Bravestrom]

I was discussing this thread the other day with my husband - particularly the penis tapping issue - which I would never do and never heard of before.

He came up with a different perspective - while I am sure it feels good to the stallion to let it hang out - he also suggested that when it is hot hanging it out may help to cool down.

wonder if there is any relation to hot weather and hanging it out more - be interesting to see if someone else has an opinion on that.

[Equine Reproduction]

wonder if there is any relation to hot weather and hanging it out more - be interesting to see if someone else has an opinion on that.

Nope. The testicles will raise and lower according to ambient temperature to keep things "cool" so to speak. It can be quite remarkable just how low things can go!!! But, with regards to the penis, a happy, healthy, well adjusted stallion will actually masturbate, on average, every 90 minutes - rain or shine, sleet or hail, hot or cold - every 90 minutes <smile>.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com/courses
Only five days left of our spring enrollment special!

[lauriep]

So there really ISN'T any difference between man and stallion!! :) LOL!!

[juliab]

Nope. The testicles will raise and lower according to ambient temperature to keep things "cool" so to speak. It can be quite remarkable just how low things can go!!! But, with regards to the penis, a happy, healthy, well adjusted stallion will actually masturbate, on average, every 90 minutes - rain or shine, sleet or hail, hot or cold - every 90 minutes <smile>.

Well, it is nice to know that I have a "happy, healthy, well adjusted" boy because I seem to find him doing this quite often :) Never had to "tap" his penis. We use a stud chain to go to and from turnout and 9 days out of 10, we don't need it. On that 10th day, I'm very happy the chain is there! Nothing awful, but he might try and run around me or rear a little and the chain quickly reminds him to remember his manners.

I wanted to ask about using Vicks on a stallion, so that he can't smell mares as much. Does it work? Is it a cruel thing to do?

[Equine Reproduction]

Well, it is nice to know that I have a "happy, healthy, well adjusted" boy because I seem to find him doing this quite often :) Never had to "tap" his penis. We use a stud chain to go to and from turnout and 9 days out of 10, we don't need it. On that 10th day, I'm very happy the chain is there! Nothing awful, but he might try and run around me or rear a little and the chain quickly reminds him to remember his manners.

I wanted to ask about using Vicks on a stallion, so that he can't smell mares as much. Does it work? Is it a cruel thing to do?

Yup. We recommend that no matter HOW well behaved your stallion is, you always have a stud chain on him. You don't have to "use" it, but if things go badly, you have something to fall back upon. Most stallions will never need it, but if a mare gets loose or a child inadvertently rides up with their little pony mare giving that come hither look, you have a little additional control.

With regards to the Vicks..while it can help a little with some stallions that are "distracted", the boys really aren't that basic <smile>. Wish they were. Good, basic training will get you through those moments. It's not cruel, it's just not going to stop a stallion that's a raging hormone.

Hope that helps.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com
4 days left of our spring enrollment special!

[Fairview Horse Center]

Vicks. I have always had it in the show supplies, but have never even tried to use it. The only time I have WANTED to use it was when I had to transport both Nevada, and one of my mares in heat to a repro center, an hour away. I was in a small 2 horse trailer. I just couldn't see making the round trip twice in the same day, so I loaded them up. All was ok as long as I was moving, but when going thru the city, and stopped at lights/traffic, I could hear the talking going on, and feel the trailer shifting. :eek: So I just gave myself lots of room, and drifted and tapped the brakes :lol: I was by myself, so the thought of the vicks was tempted, but we had to collect Nevada as soon as we arrived, and I had to get it to the airport, so I didn't want to take a chance on the smell stopping him from doing his job. :cool: It was a bit of an interesting trip - one better done in my younger days.

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=Equine Reproduction;2523775] But, with regards to the penis, a happy, healthy, well adjusted stallion will actually masturbate, on average, every 90 minutes - rain or shine, sleet or hail, hot or cold - every 90 minutes <smile>.
QUOTE]


and one and two and work and streeeeetch....and one and two and bump that belly everybody !!!:lol:

Tamara in TN
new computer network card and we are good to go !

[Ghazzu]

So there really ISN'T any difference between man and stallion!! :) LOL!!

Yes there is.
Stallions are far more easily trained and handled.

[lauriep]

Ghazzu, you are BAAAAD!

The horse show community has been using Vicks for as long as I can remember (and that is pretty long) and it seems to work pretty well. There is nothing cruel about it, IMO. For a walking hormone, probably not, but for a little extra help with one who might be mildly interested at a horse show, it is helpful.

[ahf]

Tamara.....it....ahhh..(ahem)....isn't Thursday yet.

[Tamara in TN]

Tamara.....it....ahhh..(ahem)....isn't Thursday yet.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: ;)

you slay me....that was too funny!!

Tamara in TN

[Equine Reproduction]

Yes there is.
Stallions are far more easily trained and handled.

That's 'cause you're not doooinggg it right! (said JUST like my teenager)<handing Ghazzu the riding crop>.

and one and two and work and streeeeetch....and one and two and bump that belly everybody !!!

Tamara, I don't know how "your" anatomy works, but uh..that's a physical impossibility for at least 1/2 the population...at least I really, really hope it is. And ahf is right...You've still got a couple days until Thursday. Sheesh!

This thread has gone so wrong in so many ways...

Kathy St.Martin

[Tamara in TN]

Tamara, I don't know how "your" anatomy works, but uh..that's a physical impossibility for at least 1/2 the population...at least I really, really hope it is. And ahf is right...You've still got a couple days until Thursday. Sheesh!

Kathy St.Martin

just talking the stallions thru a few quick noodle stretches :lol:

Tamara in TN

[coriander]

This thread has gone so wrong in so many ways...

At least we've rediscovered our sense of humor about it though. :lol:

[Equine Reproduction]

At least we've rediscovered our sense of humor about it though. :lol:

...Look what I do for a living! I can assure you, I've NEVER lost mine <said with a totally, straight face - honest!>

Kathy St.Martin

[GreekDressageQueen]

I whole-heartedly agree with Kathy and Darlyn on this thread..... Having owned a stallion and having had that stallion mishandled with the "tapping method", I know what problems that can create in the breeding shed.

I'm sure there is some kind of psychological explanation as to why it bothers some people so to see the stallion's penis. Just because you have a hang-up about genitals doesn't mean that horses share your view! Animals don't have prude parents that teach them to always cover up and so they let it hang out on occasion. It doesn't mean that they will rape you right then and there and it's certainly not offensive to any of the other horses, so get over it.

A well-producing stallion is happy and - on occasion - exuberant without hurting his handler. What's so wrong with that? I strongly suggest for people that have a problem with that to get professional treatment for their own psychological hang-ups and not project their problems onto their boys.

:eek: Are you kidding me?!? None of us who approve of the "tapping" method have a problem with penises and neither do we need to seek psychiatric help. The problem with most animal owners - horse people included - is we tend to apply too many human characteristics and sensibilities to horses when we should just treat them like horses. Every person on this forum must have the nicest, most well-behaved stallions in the world that never need anything more than a chain, which can and does cause small fractures and sores to the lower chin area if used excessively or for long periods of time. What if the stallion got away from you and stepped on the lead rope causing the chain to tighten very quickly? This would surely cause damage to the skin or mandible - HORSE ABUSERS!!!!! I expect the people on this forum to use dental floss and cotton to control their stallions.

Most of the stallions I have been around never had a problem with the tapping method and sure as heck didn't have a problem breeding mares. Again, I must qualify that tapping is only used when the horses are under saddle or working in hand AND by tap I mean it is with a soft flicker of the end of the dressage whip - mosquito bites would cause more pain! Yes, when I ride or work a stallion I do not want their penis out at any time. I do not have a "problem" with the penis and the stallions can hang out all they want on their own time. My time - penis is up. Breeding time - penis is down. Maybe the horses that can't handle tapping are too sensitive (dare I say stupid?) to understand the difference OR are not used for competition as most of the stallions I have worked with are.

Then again, I am not a vet. Oh...wait a minute...Kathy and Darlyn are not vets either, at least I don't see DVM or even Ph.D title in their name tag. Mmmmm...so we shouldn't take what anyone and everyone says as gospel truth nor should we attack the metal faculties of individuals who do not wish to "drink the Kool-aid."

I have had several people email me off this board in support of the tapping method but too afraid to voice their opinions in case the lepers on this forum attack them. That is truly sad in my opinion. :cry: This is supposed to be an open forum for discussion and instead some of you have turned it into a lynching mob. So we all don't agree - get over it, but don't post ridiculous things like "get professional treatment for their own psychological hang-ups." :no:

[siegi b.]

Lepers???
Metal faculties??? Wow!
Lynching mob???

Hmmmm, and here I thought this was a horse forum?

[Ghazzu]

Every person on this forum must have the nicest, most well-behaved stallions in the world that never need anything more than a chain, which can and does cause small fractures and sores to the lower chin area if used excessively or for long periods of time.

You are mistakenly assuming that people are using a chain under the chin.
Not me.
Nor anyone I deal with.
(As for using a chain at all, my late stallion didn't need one, and the first few times he was collected we had to dispense with it, as he would not perform while it was over his nose. After he got a little more self confidence, he was ok with it.)



Then again, I am not a vet. Oh...wait a minute...Kathy and Darlyn are not vets either, at least I don't see DVM or even Ph.D title in their name tag. Mmmmm...so we shouldn't take what anyone and everyone says as gospel truth nor should we attack the metal faculties of individuals who do not wish to "drink the Kool-aid."
Would it make you any happier if I told you that I have a piece of parchment naming me as a DVM and I think they're right?

[Fairview Horse Center]

Yes, when I ride or work a stallion I do not want their penis out at any time. I do not have a "problem" with the penis and the stallions can hang out all they want on their own time. My time - penis is up.

GDQ, WHY do you object to seeing a horse's penis? What is WRONG with the way it looks to you? When your horses are standing being groomed, do you not let them relax a leg? What is different to you about a penis? Do you just find it so ugly you can't bear to see it? Is it embarrassing to you? Do you tap a gelding's penis too?

Once again, do you tap a mare's vulva with a whip if she is winking or teasing? I am really waiting for this answer, because it seems like you object to any male type behavior, but not to a mare's behavior.

BTW, I never put a chain under a chin.

[GreekDressageQueen]

GDQ, WHY do you object to seeing a horse's penis? What is WRONG with the way it looks to you?

Oh Please...this is ridiculous. I never let my ex-racehorse stick his tongue out either while under saddle - I guess I hate the sight of tongues too.

As for the mare in heat "winking vulva" comment - your argument is logically inconsistent - whatever answer I might give does not negate or prove that tapping a stallion's penis is necessarily wrong or right.

[Equine Reproduction]

... which can and does cause small fractures and sores to the lower chin area if used excessively or for long periods of time.

Actually, the chain should go over the nose. And, the halter should be well fitting so as to avoid the halter and/or the chain slipping or cutting into the horse or the horse's eye. And, the chain should be adjusted so that no excess chain is hanging loose as if things get "exciting", that loose bit of chain could inadvertently swing and accidently hit the stallion in the face and/or eye. Stallions tend to be lighter up front and more inclined to go up. Using a chain under the jaw, even lightly, can encourage a horse to rear. And there are other options. A Chiffney bit, as used in the TB industry, is preferred by some. But, given the choice of a stallion getting away from me and possibly injuring the child that shows up with her pony mare...well, I'm afraid I'd take the risk of injury. Safety first.

Then again, I am not a vet. Oh...wait a minute...Kathy and Darlyn are not vets either, at least I don't see DVM or even Ph.D title in their name tag. Mmmmm...so we shouldn't take what anyone and everyone says as gospel truth nor should we attack the metal faculties of individuals who do not wish to "drink the Kool-aid."

<smile>...No, I'm not a vet - don't wanna work that hard and my hat is off to the vets out there. Their job is often a thankless one. However, we do teach vets. Most of our courses are approved for CE credits and I believe most of the vets that have attended our courses are quite happy with the information provided. But then, ask Ghazzu. She "is" a vet and I believe, if she is who I think she is, she was satisfied with the information we presented. I haven't shown up out of the blue, but have been around for quite some time and, I believe, have earned the respect I have garnered through the years by not just talking the talk, but actually walking the walk. Anyone here can contact me via email, telephone, snail mail, private message, whatever - and many do. The information I provide is not gospel...just an option to be taken for what it is worth. I really don't want to be taken "that" seriously. Geez...couldn't imagine THAT responsibility, although I "have" been accused of being "preachy" :(.

Our goal is in helping breeders, veterinarians, reproduction specialists, and ultimately, the horse. We try to stay on top of all the latest research, techniques, pharmacueticals, etc. and try to present the information in an easy to understand, easy to find, easy to access manner. It's a service and other than the short courses, a free one. The website is entirely free, to the point it doesn't even have pop-ups on it! It "is" a passion. And along the way, we actually absorb some of the information, although my brain is leaking worse and worse with each passing year <sigh>.

Additionally and FWIW, since you seem concerned about my lack of credentials (sorry Darlyn, you're on your own for that one <smile>), our website is the largest of its kind in the world. It receives over 9,000 unique hits a day (as opposed to page hits). It is listed in the top million websites in the world. It is also utilized by breeders, veternarians, reproduction specialists, and veterinary universities all over the world as a resource. We are fortunate in having some of the top theriogenologists and repro people in the world as consultants, as well as friends. When we write a new article for the website, we are fortunate in knowing whom (or is it who?) to call that is the expert in that particular field and/or area of research and have access to those individuals. I "was" accepted to veterinary school many, many, many (did I say many???) years ago, but recognized that I really didn't want to go to school for 7, 8 or 9 years to learn a little bit about a lot of things - most vets will tell you that their real education begins when they get out of school (I know mine did). I wanted to learn a LOT about one thing - Equine Reproduction! Ah well...so I'm not a vet <smile>. But I "do" know a few! Does that count? And am very, very fortunate to have some excellent ones to call as friends - (and I LOVE the ol' curmudgeon's cut to the chase, no nonesense approach of saying it like it is).

I also don't think that a "title" entitles anyone to respect - that has to be earned. I would like to think that if someone offered me an alternative perspective that is diametrically oppositive of what I have been shown or taught, that I would recognize the possibility that there "may" be another way. I can thank the likes of Sue McDonnell (who isn't a vet), Paul Loomis (who isn't a vet), Ed Squires (who isn't a vet), just to name a few, for different ways of attaining the same goals more expeditiously, more safely, more economically and more successfully! I could list off a bunch of other names of "uncredentialed" people that I have learned from over the years that many of you may or may not have heard of, but what's the point? Ultimately, knowledge is power and the more you have, the better your ability in making better judgment calls (or judgement for you non-Americans). So if you believe that someone must have a string of letters after their name to be a credible source of information...well...good luck to you. You will miss out on a lot of really, really knowledgeable people in life.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com
Only 4 days left of our spring enrollment special!

[Fairview Horse Center]

Nope, Kathy, I surely can't climb up that mountain of your experience, but like you say, it IS a passion. I actually got into breeding because I LOVE to learn. Stable & horse management has been an incredible passion of mine for over 30 years. I am not a great rider, trainer, or show person. I have based myself on the horse, and it IS why I chose the name HORSE Center. I "use" my breeding to learn, and to visualize. I took chances with my horses purely because I wanted to SEE and LEARN from the relationships. Including turning my 2 stallions out together for a while. It is SO much about learning to me, and stepping into the breeding part of horses was just a direction I chose as there is so much to learn.

The more I learn, the more I know I don't know. That said, I do know things that are wrong, or hurtful.

No, I am not a vet, but I also have helped to educate quite a few, although not formally.

[Tamara in TN]

You are mistakenly assuming that people are using a chain under the chin.
Not me.
Nor anyone I deal with.
Would it make you any happier if I told you that I have a piece of parchment naming me as a DVM and I think they're right?

I have only seen it used in halter horse folks....arab and QH....and one nasty nasty man who ran it over the poll and down back under the chin....he disgusted me and still does 16 plus years later...

and here I thought you was a "self proclaimed" vet ;)

Tamara in TN

[juliab]

Now I'm confused (I am quite often unfortunately, now that I am in my dotage :) ). I thread the chain through the ring under the chin and then over the nose to the other side to make sort of a circle all the way around. I then attach the lead rope. I know my vet once showed me a way where you thread through under the chin and then over the nose and then clip to the side of the halter up near the throat latch. Sorry, not very clear descriptions, but I hope you'all know what I mean. I've found that with this method though (even with a very well fitting halter) that it tends to push the halter off to the side it you need to shank at all, and there is more risk of the chain or halter getting into the horse's eye on that side. My trainer showed me the other method which seems to work better for my guy. He has a bit of a tongue fetish so I guess his habits would be doubly offensive to some! He loves you to hold his tongue and will poke it out every time someone comes by. If I play with his tongue for a few seconds and then give him exactly two of his favorite cookies, he'll stand quietly for me to thread the chain over his nose. Yes, he is spoiled :)

[Kelly G]

I'm curious now, too. Here in Aus, there are a few ways I see chains used regularly, the first is that some show halters only have leather over the nose with a ring either side through which you're s'posed to thread a chain. The chain would go through one ring on the side of the halter, under the nose, through the other ring, then back to the lead where it would click on, forming a loop of chain under the jaw, half of which if you pull tightens under there. The second way they're used follows the same principle but uses the two rings of the bit instead. A third chain is short with a hook either side and clips to either ring of the bit, and you attach a lead to the chain itself. That one doesn't tighten at all, just equalizes the pressure on the two sides of the bit when you pull on it. Finally, chains are attached to halter or bit ring, over nose, and back through halter or bit ring on the other side. There seems to be plenty of use of all of these methods here, especially in led classes with stallions or youngsters. So, I'm curious now, are all of these same techniques used OS, too, or just the last of them? Must admit, by the way, I really, really hate chains that put pressure, either over or under the nose, wish they never needed to be used, 'cos I think they're just awful, but I know with some horses you just need to use at least something along those lines.
Kelly.:)

[HC]

Well, I have vred and raised 2 colts to become now 4 and 3 year old stallions which I have bred. From day one, I was told to treat them just like geldings and they will act like geldings. If you treat them differently they will become different. I have taken both of mine to dressage at devon as 2 and 3 year olds, and they learned to deal with being in the mare barn. An experienced breeder told me once that you don't want to mess with their face and yank on their chains much. that is what pisses them off. If you need to repremand them (as I am sure you will), repremand them in the belly but not near their penis. It will shut them up right away. As 2 year olds, they were both broke and had no issues. Then when they turned 2 1/2 I had to seperate them from the geldings and they started being turned out alone. They didn't like it at first, but as long as they saw other horses they were fine. When they were 3 I sent them to a cowboy in NY to be broke after they learned how to breed. That cowboy was amazing. He rode those stallions in the ring with mares that were in heat tied to the walls. My stallions learned when it's riding time and when it's breeding time.
They are both very easy to work with and perfect gentleman around the barn with kids, mares and many dogs :) Good luck with your stallion prospect.

www.hcbreeding.com

[Fairview Horse Center]

Mostly what I find in the US, the chain goes thru the ring on the left side of the halter, across the nose - usually wrapping one around the leather nose piece, out thru the ring on the right side of the halter, and attaching up to the higher ring on that side. If a short chain, it is just attached to the right lower ring. If I am expecting to have to increase the severity of the set-up, I don't wrap, but then you have to be extra careful.

When I see the set-up that goes under the chin, attaching back to itself, is usally for classes like in hand Arabians, when you want that realy elevated head.

The chain under causes the horse to throw it's head up. It is also MUCH more severe. When I use a chain, I don't want to exaggerate the head up, "I'm King of the WORLD!!!", stance. If I needed to increase the severety, I would go with a lip chain.

[Ghazzu]

Most of our courses are approved for CE credits and I believe most of the vets that have attended our courses are quite happy with the information provided. But then, ask Ghazzu. She "is" a vet and I believe, if she is who I think she is, she was satisfied with the information we presented.

I suspect you do know who I am, and you are correct in thinking I found your course to be a wonderful refresher on some topics, and an update/new angle on others. (I no longer fear frozen semen!:D)

Part of the reason I attended was for my own education, the other was to see whether the course was something I would be comfortable recommending to people-- and I do.

[Ghazzu]

and here I thought you was a "self proclaimed" vet ;)

Tamara in TN

Only on the wreck :D

[coriander]

I'm not a vet, and I don't even play one on TV (just occasionally on my own horses :) ). I don't use a chain under the chin, nor does anyone I work with; it's over the nose, and if it's for a severe problem - it's a lip chain.

I have observed that most stallions. IME, are much more easily trained than most men. BTW, Kathy, it's "whom to call" - I am a self-proclaimed grammar geek.

For those of you who think tapping a penis is fine, I give up. I can't even hazard a guess whether you're offended by the sight of a horse penis, envious of it (:eek:) or frightened by it. But, in my opinion, your absolute insistence on prohibiting its appearance/display during "your time" borders on the obsessive. And I do believe it's abuse, but I can't save the world.

Don't come crying to us when you "tap" one too many times, or find the wrong horse to tap and you get killed. We tried to tell you.

I have, sadly, lost my sense of humor, and hope Tamara will provide some comic relief. Isn't it getting close to Thursday, after all?

[siegi b.]

Coriander..... the voice of reason! Thank you for your post...

[Equine Reproduction]

I have observed that most stallions. IME, are much more easily trained than most men. BTW, Kathy, it's "whom to call" - I am a self-proclaimed grammar geek.

Whew. Glad I got it right <grin>. Now if I could only get affect/effect, e.g./i.e., and a multitude of other little terms right. Ah well...I'm an Okie now, so I don't have to be grammatically correct. 'cept I'm married to an Englishman who has FINALLY agreed to the fact that "I" don't speak English, and he doesn't speak "American" <grin>. It's an uneasy truce, but I was really getting tired of his correcting my spelling and my having to correct his! There are several words on the website that...well...are just wrong!!! So for those of you that think enrollment should be spelled with two "L's", I agree!!! But try and tell that to an Englishman <banging head repeatedly on keyboard>.

I have, sadly, lost my sense of humor, and hope Tamara will provide some comic relief. Isn't it getting close to Thursday, after all?

I just have this vision of Tamara's significant other jumping up and down like a Jack Russell Terrier on Thursday morning. But I'm just curious as to why Thursday??? No..no...don't answer that Tamara. PLEASE don't answer that.

Ghazzu, I'm just plain slow. It wasn't until this thread that I actually figured out who you were <smile>.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com/courses
Only three days left of our spring enrollment special!

[erinwillow]

Well, as we seem to have been blessed by the colt fairy. . . .we have had colt foals now two years in a row ;) handling them really shouldn't be fear inducing. Honestly, we treat them like herd members and work with them everyday--and I mean EVERY day. Always touching, rubbing (not really focusing on his thingy--just in general :-) leading, correcting. . . etc. Our yearling colt has receintly kind of "grown into" himself and tried some silly stuff with us. . .a little jerky on the lead, etc.. But some firm and consistent handling wiht PLENTY of reward when he does the right thing have brought him around wonderfully well. So, at one he is still a colt and NOT a pain :-)

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=Equine Reproduction;2528374] But I'm just curious as to why Thursday??? No..no...don't answer that Tamara. PLEASE don't answer that.


well Thursday is the day before payday...a girls gotta make that "new furniture" money some how :D:lol::lol:

Tamara in TN
where a $50 on the dresser speaks volumes:yes:

[RHdobes563]

Now if I could only get affect/effect, e.g./i.e., and a multitude of other little terms right.

For affect/effect, think "Action", "a" in "a"ffect for "action" (verb). "Effect" is the noun.

I've had problems with stationary/stationery. The last "a" in the first reminds me to "stAy."

I have a weird mind like that.

[ambar]

well Thursday is the day before payday...a girls gotta make that "new furniture" money some how :D:lol::lol:

Tamara in TN
where a $50 on the dresser speaks volumes:yes:


I guess it's just as well we're in Sport Horse Breeding :eek: :D

[Tamara in TN]

I guess it's just as well we're in Sport Horse Breeding :eek: :D

it's all about the love here at SHB :winkgrin:

Tamara in TN

[Equine Reproduction]

it's all about the love here at SHB :winkgrin:

Tamara in TN

Whew! I'm relieved to hear that it's not about - ahem - the sport :winkgrin: Speaking of sport, where the heck are you in Tennessee? I could have you check up on Jos to see if he is indeed working <smile>...He's heading for Shelbyville next week and then on to Memphis.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com/courses
Only ONE day left of our spring enrollment special!

[Sonesta]

Ah, kewl! Setting up a regiment of spies to keep Jos in line.

Poor sweet guy.

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=Equine Reproduction;2530850]Whew! I'm relieved to hear that it's not about - ahem - the sport :winkgrin: Speaking of sport, where the heck are you in Tennessee? I could have you check up on Jos to see if he is indeed working <smile>...He's heading for Shelbyville next week and then on to Memphis.
QUOTE]

I am in the mountains to the North between Cookeville and Knoxville....40 min from the KY border...I can be waayyy S of ATL before I can be in Shelbyville.... or nearly to Cincinnatti :lol:

Tamara in TN

[Rainbow Farm Unltd.]

Not ok in my book. Why is it a crime for a stallion to have a penis? If you hate the look of a penis that much, only be around mares. A penis is not committing a crime. Ignore the penis. If they are ACTING rude, deal with the behavior. There is absolutely NO reason why a stallion can't cool himself off, relax, etc. If a stallion is dropped and acting inappropriately, it is their brain that is the problem, so I would rather see a handler use a plastic bat to get the attention/punish the FRONT end - where the issue is coming from. The penis does not have a brain of it's own. You have to deal with where the signals are coming from.

Absolutely!!!! It is unfair, and it is abusive in my opinion. If you punish the penis, you will wind up with a stallion who is shy, or difficult or won't breed due to fear. Period. Keep his mind occupied, do something else that's work, that he doesn't much like, like working him in circles in hand, backing up, etc. Change the focus, offer consequences of work.

And I know this wasn't the original topic, but I just had to voice my enormous opposition to whacking penises or even touching them in anger. It looks like you've had plenty of excellent advice for handling your youngsters. There's a super video called "Showing Your Sport Horse In Hand" that has lots of great lessons for youngsters, and is mostly about kindly getting them to lead easily, respect your space, and go happily forward with you. You can get it from USDF.org at the Store in the Videos.