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View Full Version : Competition-legal remedy for a sore back? HELP!UPDATE - it wasn't her back..........



ESG
Jun. 16, 2007, 12:04 AM
So I take my training mare to her first recognized show this weekend. I school her this afternoon in the bridle I've used for the 7 months I've had her, in the saddle I've used for the 7 months I've had her. Both fit her beautifully yesterday, and she worked like a dream.

The problem - we get going, and she's working like her usual amenable self. At first. But the longer we go, the p!$$ier she gets. I get off and longe her for a few, thinking she's just got her knickers in a twist. She flags her tail and floats around the circle, but is a bit tight in her back. I check the saddle, and it's ridden up onto her withers, and I was basically sitting on her withers/spine - something that's NEVER happened before.

So, I rinse her down, cool her out, let her stretch and eat. I've got another saddle, and a half pad, that I can try before our classes tomorrow, but I'm really worried that she's tweaked something major because of this. Her withers are so sore that combing her mane out to braid it, made her flinch. And as my working student was leading her away (bless that girl - she's a gift from God!), I noticed that she wasn't keen on bringing her left hind up under her, and was walking unevenly. Just slightly, but I know this mare well enough that I could spot it. :(

Any suggestions as to how I can make her more comfortable, and still be "legal" would be greatly appreciated. :sigh:

ETA - other issues surfaced during the course of the weekend. We were horrific on Saturday morning (50+% at TL2), better in the afternoon after a bit change (58%, with a bolt and a spook in the mix), even better this morning (62+% with problems in both canter transitions) and horrific again this afternoon (50% with lots of canter problems, and an attitude). News as it happens, film at 11.........................:winkgrin:

Thanks to all who offered suggestions. :cool:

appychik
Jun. 16, 2007, 12:09 AM
Is B-L solution legal? I've never used it as I've always used Bute, up until like 12 hours before competition... otherwise some Yucca? I'm not entirely positive on what to suggest - except definately have the chiropracter/massage therapist take a look at her after the show.

Good luck and I hope all goes well. I hope you can at least salvage a ride or two... cause it does stink having to withdraw from a show and lose those entry fees and all.

Velvet
Jun. 16, 2007, 12:13 AM
I'd go the bute route, too. Just read the rules to make sure you have it right by weight, etc. :yes:

ESG
Jun. 16, 2007, 12:16 AM
I double checked the rules this afternoon, before leaving for the show. I figured since she's doing two tests tomorrow (I hope :rolleyes: ), and two tests Sunday, that she'd need a gram (1 gram per 1000 lbs is the legal dosage) Saturday night, and set up her feed accordingly. After this afternoon, I gave her that feed tonight, and will do the same tomorrow, if need be. I was thinking that there might be something topical I can do for her. Mineral ice? Liniment? Vodka? (just kidding) Or maybe, the vodka should be for me.......................:sigh:

inca
Jun. 16, 2007, 12:27 AM
I think the vodka for you is in order. Hope all goes well tomorrow.

mjhco
Jun. 16, 2007, 12:44 AM
Some form of Robaxin is legal. Can't remember if it is the injectable or oral.

Ryka
Jun. 16, 2007, 12:55 AM
ANY experienced competitor knows that you NEVER change tack, shoes, feed, ANYTHING prior to or during a competition. These issues are worked out during training WEEKS if not MONTHS before considering going to a show. If your training mare is suddenly THAT afflicted, she needs to see a vet immediantly. It is amazing how many excuses people come up with at the last minute.:no:

Peggy
Jun. 16, 2007, 01:18 AM
Robaxin is legal the night before, at least orally. You can use it w/bute.

egontoast
Jun. 16, 2007, 07:01 AM
There could be something else going on. It sux but I'd be ready to scratch on Saturday (depending on how she is) and later in the day try schooling her to see how she is before deciding about sunday. I would not use bute for something like that.

Then again, she may be just fine tomorrow ( oops today, I guess).

carolprudm
Jun. 16, 2007, 08:07 AM
I would see if you could get her a massage or a visit from a chiro.

Trixie's mom
Jun. 16, 2007, 08:58 AM
You can use Robaxin...it's just not that much. I second the bute idea.

Here's something you can do that provides temporary relief...

You will need, two towels (people size)
Hot water
Epsom salts
horse cooler

1. soak first towel in hot water, lay across back where horse is sore
2. sprinkle salts in a layer over sore areas, don't be stingy, be generous here
3. soak second towel in hot water, lay over first towel
4. lay cooler over towels to retain heat

leave horse in crossties for 20 minutes...repeat after each ride

finally...find a saddle fitter! :) Good luck

melodiousaphony
Jun. 16, 2007, 08:58 AM
Disclaimer: this is a bit harsh in tone, but this is a subject I feel very strongly about and have a fair amount of experience dealing with back sore horses.

If you were that sore, would you want to compete? Probably not, so why make your horse go through with it. Dressage is about a nice supple, comfortable, submissive horse working well from behind, etc., etc. None of this really can be done properly or fairly to the horse when their back is sore. Not to mention what could happen to you if the problem continues to get worse and suddenly you find yourself hurled off your horse because you refused to listen to her complaints.

Drugging is merely a way of covering something up UNLESS you know what the problem is and you are using medication to assist in, say, physical therapy for the horse. Example: a horse who has developed a very inverted way of going to compensate for a now resolved back injury may need Robaxin (methocarbamol) to relax some muscles and be comfortable when re-establishing muscles to allow them to go properly again. Medication should *NOT* be used just so some person can go off and win some ribbon that means absolutely nothing in the long run. There are no really good quick fixes when it comes to back injuries. Not to mention that drugs like bute (NSAIDs) should generally only be used under the recommendation of a vet given some of their risks re: colic treatment, etc. Yes, side effects usually require a long term course of bute, but I personally don't like to use these sorts of things just because. Heck, your mare could even have an ulcer, who knows.

Also, if your horse is THAT sore, trailering could make things worse. Consider how much work it is for a horse to stay standing in a trailer, especially if the unexpected happens and you have to turn quickly, brake fast, and so on.

Trixie's mom
Jun. 16, 2007, 09:16 AM
melodi....your post isn't harsh...just real. Obviously the OP intends to show so why not give advice on how the make the horse the as comfortable as possible? She has to live with her choices.

We all hope she will call the vet asap...to rule out ulcers, ovarian cysts, etc.

As an aside...if you are worried about ulcers, give 10 peppermint tums tablets or some maalox in a syringe right before the bute to protect the stomach. also, if you give the bute IV, it is still harsh on the stomach so give the tums as well.

saje
Jun. 16, 2007, 09:37 AM
I don't know, if I tweaked something in my back before a show, I'd probably take a handful of Ibuprofen, do some stretching, ask someone to massage the kinks maybe, do the ice/heat/ice route, and I'd at least try and ride.

I don't think that trying the same regime for the horse, and then doing a long gradual warmup to see how things feel is so bad. There's a difference between "a little stiff/NQR but functional" and out and out pain.

I certainly don't advocate showing at all costs no matter how sore a horse may be, but if we never rode a horse who was showing signs of stiffness or unevenness, there'd be an awful lot of wondeful, happy but older & arthritic horses headin' down the road.

ETA, that the wither soreness could be just skin inflammation from the saddle slipping up. It may go away as quickly as it came. Sort of like when you wear a bathing suit or a bra that doesn't fit quite right, and you get a chafed spot under your arm - it's horribly sensitive to touch for a day, and then it's fine if left alone. I hope that's all it is!

melodiousaphony
Jun. 16, 2007, 10:13 AM
I think what really concerns me about the OP's horse is the sudden nature of the pain. If she has the vet come out and clear the horse to go, than by all means go. But personally, if my back suddenly was REALLY bothering me, I'd need to get myself cleared by a professional before I'd go forward with competition (then again, I do have some budged discs in my lower back, so if I suddenly got whomped with pain, I'd be afraid I'd gone a bit too far and herniated one).

As for showing older, uneven horses, and so on, I find there to be a bit of a difference between that and showing a horse that suddenly demonstrates signs of soreness. My gelding has a tight back and requires a good warm up before dressage. I've had it checked out, I know how to manage it as it's just muscle tightness, and I am taking the steps on my end necessary to make sure he is a-okay to go. It's the checking out and the managing that is very important to me, not this oh-god-show-tomorrow-fix-it-now approach. There has to be a certain willingness to forfeit and though the OP may not be a die hard, screw the horse type, it's a type I've seen far too often (a friend of mine worked at a BNT's H/J barn, some of the regiments of drugs these horses were on just to compete was bothersome).
However, a little "NQR but functional" in a way that is new to a horse when we get to cross-country or stadium is completely unacceptable; it's barely acceptable when I get to the dressage ring. I know this is a dressage forum, but from the perspective of someone who goes at solid fences, if my horse has an unknown issue that he doesn't warm up out of, I'm not competing.

But what works for backs in my experience? I agree with a long warm up, starting on a long rein with lots of suppling exercises. Sore-No-More brace/liniment is also great as well as the tried and true Vetrolin.

Rival
Jun. 16, 2007, 12:39 PM
Accupuncture. I have seen some amazing results with it and it is drug free. Not sure about the rules on it though.

AllWeatherGal
Jun. 16, 2007, 06:08 PM
Accupuncture. I have seen some amazing results with it and it is drug free. Not sure about the rules on it though.


completely legal, as is chiropractic.

ESG ... how did it go? *fingers crossed*

snowyriver
Jun. 16, 2007, 10:05 PM
Robaxin is legal the night before, at least orally. You can use it w/bute.

I am comepeting this weekend and my horse is on 2.5 gr. robaxin (5 gr./1000lb. can be given twice daily) once daily and 1 gr. bute twice daliy. The robaxin can only be given for 5 days before competition and at least 6 hours before competition. I was drug tested for the first time today so, I hope my vet and I read rules correctly. My horse gets massages as well, which helps alot as well.

Here is the drug rules site:
http://www.usef.org/documents/drugsMeds/USEF_EquineDrugsMedicationsPamphlet.pdf

Good Luck!!

CAJumper
Jun. 17, 2007, 01:43 AM
Robaxin and banamine would be my choice. Check the rules to know how much to give for sure. And read the NSAID rules carefully depending on what you choose - you cannot mix bute and banamine for example.

chrissymack
Jun. 17, 2007, 11:07 AM
For future reference, perhaps a Thinline or Ultra thinline half pad could help make a difference. They are thin enough that if your saddle "does" fit correctly, they don't alter fit...but provide a huge amount of shock absorption, and prevent any saddle slippage (in your case, onto the withers).
Let us know how it went!

JRG
Jun. 17, 2007, 11:19 AM
Short term I would scratch, long term your horse's shape must be changing. Re-check saddle fit, it shouldn't ride up if it fits. May just be that with the increase in muscle the saddle has become too narrow and it is starting to affect your horses way of going. Or you have too much saddle pad under the saddle and thus making the saddle too tight.

criss
Jun. 17, 2007, 06:20 PM
Hope it went well!

For future reference, I just learned that Sore No More can be rubbed into a horse's back before tacking up. I don't know if it would be enough to help you, but it's worked for me in managing some weird heat buildup in my horse's back (seriously, this is the strangest thing--he gets a hot spot about the size of my hand right behind the saddle every time he's worked, and it's in the same spot even when he's longed with no tack on his back at all, but doesn't seem very painful, just a little sensitive). It makes my saddle pad a little yuckier than normal, but whatever.

J-Lu
Jun. 17, 2007, 07:49 PM
... but I'm really worried that she's tweaked something major because of this. Her withers are so sore that combing her mane out to braid it, made her flinch. And as my working student was leading her away (bless that girl - she's a gift from God!), I noticed that she wasn't keen on bringing her left hind up under her, and was walking unevenly. Just slightly, but I know this mare well enough that I could spot it. :(

You are worried that she tweaked something major and you are still planning on showing her after finding some way to mask her symptoms? How interesting.

Fortunately, her back didn't seem to be the issue this past weekend.

Bogey2
Jun. 17, 2007, 07:53 PM
I just learned that Sore No More can be rubbed into a horse's back before tacking up

be careful with any of the topical ointments. I had a boarder who's horse ended up with an oozing "burn" from the saddle rubbing on the spot where it was applied:eek:

J-Lu
Jun. 17, 2007, 10:07 PM
Hi ESG,

I noticed that you changed the title of your thread.

I watched your rides this past weekend and scribed for you as well. After watching you ride your horse in Training Level, I believe that you owe those FEI riders that you complained about in your recent thread entitled "There must have been a sale on Shadbellies..." an apology. Your rides did not fulfill the directives of training level, which was very much reflected in your scores and the spread between you and the leaders. I'm not sure how you feel qualified to complain about people riding 5-8 levels above you but getting the same scores as you.

And your horse's back did not look as problematic as other factors in your rides.

Apropos of the concurrent "railbird" thread, "keyboard birds", who can "talk the talk" should realize that the more judgemental they are, the more people will watch to see if they can "walk the walk". It's called accountability. We can't see each other's face here, but sometimes we can in "real life"...and we're still accountable for what we type here.

Dalfan
Jun. 17, 2007, 10:14 PM
Well..you've just got loads of class, don't you? Very tacky.:no:

Don't be surprised if someone points out your shortcomings as a rider. Do you ride? Show?

She obviously changed her title with an UPDATE. So your first dig that things didn't go well didn't get the reponse you were looking for? I think ESG posted her scores for all to see. Not good enough for you?

You were scribing? Possibly a note to show management about one of their scribes trying to embarrass a rider at their show is in order.

J-Lu
Jun. 17, 2007, 10:34 PM
Ahhh, Dalfan!

As my BFF (best friend forever), you likely already know that I don't ride and never show and looooooooove gossip! ;)

flshgordon
Jun. 17, 2007, 10:39 PM
I have to say that between you & Ryka, I'm not sure who I would say has less "Class" but overall, neither of you would fall anywhere near that title :rolleyes:

Seriously, there are some people in this town that should be ashamed to call themselves human beings. I'm pretty sure they know who they are...
Hi ESG,

I noticed that you changed the title of your thread.

I watched your rides this past weekend and scribed for you as well. After watching you ride your horse in Training Level, I believe that you owe those FEI riders that you complained about in your recent thread entitled "There must have been a sale on Shadbellies..." an apology. Your rides did not fulfill the directives of training level, which was very much reflected in your scores and the spread between you and the leaders. I'm not sure how you feel qualified to complain about people riding 5-8 levels above you but getting the same scores as you.

And your horse's back did not look as problematic as other factors in your rides.

Apropos of the concurrent "railbird" thread, "keyboard birds", who can "talk the talk" should realize that the more judgemental they are, the more people will watch to see if they can "walk the walk". It's called accountability. We can't see each other's face here, but sometimes we can in "real life"...and we're still accountable for what we type here.

Sonesta
Jun. 17, 2007, 11:49 PM
Wow. Lots of nastiness here. I saw Beth this morning and first thing out of her mouth was a very honest "Yikes. We sucked yesterday. I hope we are better today." And this was the horse's first dressage show FCS! Give the girl a break and STFU unless you have never had a bad ride on a green horse.

HorseShopping
Jun. 18, 2007, 12:52 AM
Taken out of context, J-Lu's comments seem very rude. However, in light of ESG's very tacky and uncalled for post regarding fellow professional riders after last show, I think the saying "you reap what you sow" is very apropros.

I don't understand how it is okay for ESG to rake riders over the coals for less than stellar rides (at FEI, no less) and basically say they had no business showing their horse at that level. But, she gets a free pass for totalling sucking at training level. Maybe some observers felt that she should have started the horse off at lower stress schooling shows instead of doing a recognized show at this point. (Just like she felt the FEI riders should have been showing 3rd level.) That just illustrates the point that many others tried to make to her in her very unprofessional thread - we ALL have bad days in the show ring and it's not very nice to post public, disparaging comments about it. Hope this has been a lesson learned.

I don't think a single mention of her terrible rides would have been made if she had not felt the need to publicly ridicule other riders after the previous show. I agree that she owes the FEI riders she publicly called out an apology. Not quite so easy to ride down that centerline, is it?

DukesMom
Jun. 18, 2007, 12:55 AM
WOW! Profanities not necessary!:no: What is that skit on SNL??? Simmer down naw, simmer down....... Remember that one??:lol:

All I can say is ESG brought this upon herself and made her bed so now she must lay in it. (The whole steaming stinky pile of it.) You cannot blame people for getting upset with her after she so pubicly offended them. What is the saying, You reap what you sow???

As much as it pains me to say it, I have got to give the girl credit for showing up after offending so many of her fellow neighbors and competitors. I was amazed at how many people were talking about it and I don't think there were many there who did not know what she wrote on here about the last show. There was an ample amount of finger pointing and whispering when she walked by and even some copies of what she posted here on COTH about the last show hung in the bathroom, bulletin board and god knows where else. Someone had some balls!:yes: But in a way I guess it is no different then what she posted on here about them. It's all public right?

She did score as poorly (and even worse) as the FEI riders she ranted about but at least she is able to explain on here what happened and her thoughts on her rides, a luxury the poor other riders she dissed did not have. Hopefully she, and others, will in the future find a more tactful way to discuss things and prevent any further up roars and hurt feelings. Nastyness takes the fun out of it and defeats the purpose of the sport. One must remember that most of us do this for a hobby.

Crappy ride at the end of the day or good I still hug my horse, appologize for my short comings and make a huge effort to be better the next day. It is amazing what those two simple words will erase. Get the hint?;)

Ryka
Jun. 18, 2007, 01:44 AM
I would have to say ESG set the tone of classlessness. ESG does not take responsibility for her actions. Through the very clustered bunch that is the region 9 grapevine (and what has been posted here), ESG owes the riders and trainers of Texas a formal and public apology, a sincere one at that. I won't be holding my breath though. ESG perhaps you should spend less time jacking your jaw and making excuses, and more time truly training the horse(s) your client(s) are trusting and paying you to do. Scoring 3 50% at TRAINING LEVEL would suggest schooling shows and clinics are more appropriate at this time, but kudos for dusting off your balls and attempting to put up or shut up by showing, perhaps a sliver of dignity can be reclaimed. I really hope you have seen the error of your ways.

AllWeatherGal
Jun. 18, 2007, 02:32 AM
Whoever said Texas was a good horsey place to move must not live in this region.

Jeepers, ladies! Whatever happened to "treat others as you'd like to be treated"?

That means ... not as you think someone else deserves, but as you would LIKE to be treated yourself?

Lead by example, and so on.

Hazelnut
Jun. 18, 2007, 08:00 AM
Jeepers, ladies! Whatever happened to "treat others as you'd like to be treated"?

That means ... not as you think someone else deserves, but as you would LIKE to be treated yourself?

Lead by example, and so on.

Amen, ugliness is never appropriate.
Choose your road wisely, it is difficult to return to the fork...

egontoast
Jun. 18, 2007, 11:22 AM
I watched your rides this past weekend and scribed for you as well. After watching you ride your horse in Training Level, I believe that you owe those FEI riders that you complained about in your recent thread entitled "There must have been a sale on Shadbellies..." an apology. Your rides did not fulfill the directives of training level, which was very much reflected in your scores and the spread between you and the leaders. I'm not sure how you feel qualified to complain about people riding 5-8 levels above you but getting the same scores as you.

And your horse's back did not look as problematic as other factors in your rides.



I guess I am old fashioned but I believe when you scribe you are under the same 'umbrella' with the judge and ought to exercise the same discretion and professionalism about the rides as should be expected from the judge. Maybe scribes ought to be required to sign something to that effect.

Otherwise this sort of thing tends to reflect on the judge as well. Also, if a scribe is this outspoken here you have to wonder what was said in the tent.

Teesmom
Jun. 18, 2007, 11:35 AM
WHOA!!!! Had to finally chime in when you start knocking us Texas women. We are a fine group of dressage ladies!! Helpful and supportive of each other. Those that posted from Texas against ESG are rallying for their friends and competitors. I am sure you would all do the same if you were so rudely criticized. To publicly belittle anyone who is out there and trying hard is unconscionable. Remember the bible speaking of throwing the first stone? Until you can prove you’ve ridden at their level, you have no right….. And isn’t that what this whole forum is about, helping each other with words of advice and being supportive? And by the way remember ESG got all her gossip because she was scribing. For Pete’s sake, is that not somewhat hallowed ground?!!! ESG, I doubt the scribe of your rides this weekend was snickering behind your back irregardless of the low scores. Shame on you.

And to all my other fine Texas friends, Ride On !!

STF
Jun. 18, 2007, 11:53 AM
I am sad to think this turned into a bashing fest! And you wonder why so many people HATE showing and HATE dealing with public. THIS is why!!!

I stated before, I dont agree with the Shadbelly thread ESG started way back when either. I am overly disgusted with the nastiness of anyone and everyone who has something snarky and nasty to say about ANYTHING other than their own rides and self.

I hope the next time you who are being so ugly are showing a green horse, a young horse or a horse new to the show ring - and have a bad ride that you remember this and I hope the railbirds also rip you apart as well.

egontoast
Jun. 18, 2007, 11:53 AM
And by the way remember ESG got all her gossip because she was scribing.

Then she was wrong too. JMHO.

STF
Jun. 18, 2007, 11:55 AM
Agree Egon!
ESG was in the wrong on her Shabelly thread too and she knew that. She gave her opinion of rides and should not have.
But everyone should treat each other as they would like to be treated and stop this mess overall! Im sick of the nastiness of the #%^$%^$% sport some days!

inca
Jun. 18, 2007, 12:06 PM
I agree this kind of stuff is why I don't like showing. I am truly scared to debut my horse at 2nd level because I *KNOW* we are going to have a rough go the first time. We do fine in practice but under the pressure of a show is a totally different thing. And the only way to get better is to do it. But, threads like the shadbelly thread make me cringe. I would die (not literally) if someone posted something so public and critical about my feeble attempt at showing. I have tried to learn to not take it so seriously and laugh about the things that go wrong at shows. But, having strangers hash over your less than stellar performance is not something I look forward to.

I am just hoping I am enough of a nobody that no one will care one little bit if I embarrass myself with a 50%! LOL

STF
Jun. 18, 2007, 12:42 PM
No shit Inca!
Everytime I read crap like this I wonder why I want to even be in the industry! The nasty, catty, bullshit gets old. Its never gona end, I know this, but it seems to get getting worse and worse over the years.
So many people stay out of the ring due to this type of reactions. If people would concentrate on theirself and making their own horses and rides better maybe they would not have so much time to rip others apart.

I talked to ESG yesterday and when she told me about her rides, I knew.. I knew..... Id wake up this am to see her ripped apart on Coth. At least that is predictable in the sport - that the nastybirds will prevail.

Ryka
Jun. 18, 2007, 01:55 PM
ESG brought this on her self. I guarantee you if she'd of not started her shadbelly thread NONE of this would be going on. People are INSULTED and they should be, what ESG said was rude, malicious, and tasteless. SHE is the type of person that makes people not want to show... and she's proved them right with her shadbelly thread. Yes, the thread died, but the feelings and memories are still kicking. It's like rollkur threads, they get locked, deleted, people stop posting on it, but their minds and feelings towards rollkur have not changed.

I dare say if ESG publicly apologized somehow, and agreed that she was wrong and truly sorry for her actions she might be forgiven by her fellow riders and professionals. Until that happens, I don't think people's opinions and feelings about her will change.

The reaction she has received is not to be unexpected. You talk bullsh*t, you get sh*t.

AllWeatherGal
Jun. 18, 2007, 02:09 PM
I guess I am old fashioned but I believe when you scribe you are under the same 'umbrella' with the judge and ought to exercise the same discretion and professionalism about the rides as should be expected from the judge. Maybe scribes ought to be required to sign something to that effect.

Otherwise this sort of thing tends to reflect on the judge as well. Also, if a scribe is this outspoken here you have to wonder what was said in the tent.

I completely agree with you on this one, too. Egg. If you scribe for a ride, I think the only appropriate comments are appreciative and supportive. If you can't say something nice, say nothing.

Probably strictly speaking you should say nothing at all.

AllWeatherGal
Jun. 18, 2007, 02:15 PM
WHOA!!!! Had to finally chime in when you start knocking us Texas women. We are a fine group of dressage ladies!! Helpful and supportive of each other. Those that posted from Texas against ESG are rallying for their friends and competitors. I am sure you would all do the same if you were so rudely criticized. To publicly belittle anyone who is out there and trying hard is unconscionable. Remember the bible speaking of throwing the first stone? Until you can prove you’ve ridden at their level, you have no right….. And isn’t that what this whole forum is about, helping each other with words of advice and being supportive? And by the way remember ESG got all her gossip because she was scribing. For Pete’s sake, is that not somewhat hallowed ground?!!! ESG, I doubt the scribe of your rides this weekend was snickering behind your back irregardless of the low scores. Shame on you.

And to all my other fine Texas friends, Ride On !!

While the Good Book may have said something about throwing the first stone, why is that a more important instruction than turning the other cheek? Because it suits you in the moment.

I'm hard pressed to agree with your logic, as well, that if you HAVE ridden a level then it's okay to criticize a rider.

How about if you're being PAID by the rider to judge, coach, or train, you have a legitimate place to criticize ... the rest of us should spend more time on our own issues.

And FWIW, I'm quite aware that the less than gracious posters on this thread are not all from Texas and the ones from Texas do not represent every rider in the state.

The fact that "what comes around, goes around" is the Universe's plan and to see someone get her comeuppance is human. This does not mean we should not strive to behave better than that.

mp
Jun. 18, 2007, 02:20 PM
At least that is predictable in the sport - that the nastybirds will prevail.

There's something else that's predictable: When you show a sore horse, you're not likely to do well.

I don't know what the "other issues" were, but I was somewhat aghast that anyone, much less a pro, would come on a public board and ask about bute-ing up a sore horse to get her into the ring. Is this common practice among dressage trainers? This was training level, for heaven's sake. I was hoping I'd left most of that crap behind when I quit going to breed shows.

STF
Jun. 18, 2007, 02:24 PM
ESG brought this on her self. I guarantee you if she'd of not started her shadbelly thread NONE of this would be going on. People are INSULTED and they should be, what ESG said was rude, malicious, and tasteless. SHE is the type of person that makes people not want to show... and she's proved them right with her shadbelly thread. Yes, the thread died, but the feelings and memories are still kicking. It's like rollkur threads, they get locked, deleted, people stop posting on it, but their minds and feelings towards rollkur have not changed.

I dare say if ESG publicly apologized somehow, and agreed that she was wrong and truly sorry for her actions she might be forgiven by her fellow riders and professionals. Until that happens, I don't think people's opinions and feelings about her will change.

The reaction she has received is not to be unexpected. You talk bullsh*t, you get sh*t.

I dont agree with the shadbelly thread, I have said before. BUT...... there is a part of being a "bigger and better person" by not going to the level of hate and nasty. Class would have been to say..... "Sorry for your bad luck, good luck next time" and leave it like that.

STF
Jun. 18, 2007, 02:27 PM
There's something else that's predictable: When you show a sore horse, you're not likely to do well.

I don't know what the "other issues" were, but I was somewhat aghast that anyone, much less a pro, would come on a public board and ask about bute-ing up a sore horse to get her into the ring. Is this common practice among dressage trainers? This was training level, for heaven's sake. I was hoping I'd left most of that crap behind when I quit going to breed shows.

I cant anwser that, but it would be nice to see more postive outcomes of shows and people who support and promote the sport, than hinder it. Im sure there are tons of riders here that ride but dont show that read this thread. This type of ugly nonsense only hinders our sport overall, more than any one person trying to "make a point" to ESG.

Some need to look beyond their own noses and see what else is there they are hurting........

STF
Jun. 18, 2007, 02:29 PM
While the Good Book may have said something about throwing the first stone, why is that a more important instruction than turning the other cheek? Because it suits you in the moment.

I'm hard pressed to agree with your logic, as well, that if you HAVE ridden a level then it's okay to criticize a rider.

How about if you're being PAID by the rider to judge, coach, or train, you have a legitimate place to criticize ... the rest of us should spend more time on our own issues.

And FWIW, I'm quite aware that the less than gracious posters on this thread are not all from Texas and the ones from Texas do not represent every rider in the state.

The fact that "what comes around, goes around" is the Universe's plan and to see someone get her comeuppance is human. This does not mean we should not strive to behave better than that.

I dont think anybody has the right to judge another human being (yes, even ESG on her now and then rants). Each need to live and let live and leave each other the %^$ alone! :(

mp
Jun. 18, 2007, 03:00 PM
I cant anwser that, but it would be nice to see more postive outcomes of shows and people who support and promote the sport, than hinder it. Im sure there are tons of riders here that ride but dont show that read this thread. This type of ugly nonsense only hinders our sport overall, more than any one person trying to "make a point" to ESG.

Some need to look beyond their own noses and see what else is there they are hurting........

Let me put this more bluntly. I think it's sad that people feel the need to put others down. And I'm very sorry for people who are hurt by remarks like that.

For myself, I don't give a crap what ESG, snarky railbirds or anyone else thinks of my riding. If someone wants to snicker, make snide remarks out loud, or scribe and then post snotty remarks on the internet about it, that's his or her character issue.

What I think really sucks is bute-ing up a horse for a show, especially if you don't know why he's sore. I would be mad as hell if a trainer did that to my horse.

It is pretty much de rigeur in some circles for Arabian showing. I had to make it clear to anyone who worked with my horses that "better living through chemistry" did not apply where they were concerned. (And, yes, I've had to scratch and was out $700 in show fees because of it.) Is this more or less common in the dressage world? I'm hoping less ...

Anyone?

PaulaM
Jun. 18, 2007, 03:20 PM
I don't know about rules in the US, however, up here in Canada, The following sentence appears under the rules for Scribes:

"Marks and remarks made in the Judge's booth are to remain confidential and are not to be discussed by the scribe with anyone."
Section E Dressage, Chapter 2 Paragraph 2.13

Not making a dig at anyone, but I was always under the impression that a scribe really doesn't get all that much time to actually observe any tests, with the comments that are being made and needing to be written on the tests.

Liz
Jun. 18, 2007, 03:40 PM
Look, I am a big believer in you reep what you sow. If you are the type who really tries to be positive, I think that most people respond in like manner. If you are snarkey and negative most people respond in like manner.

I am sorry for ESG's public tar and feathering. I was sorry she felt the need to do the same thing awhile back in her shadbelly post. Everyone has bad rides and I know, in a way, she brought this on herself but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I can't help but think that someone posting the shadbelly thread in the bathroom at the show was just wrong. I was critical of ESG in her shadbelly thread and I think this thread is in just as poor taste. Those of you going on and on about ESG are just as bad, if not worse.

Ryka
Jun. 18, 2007, 03:58 PM
My problem with ESG is that she does not take responsibility for her words and actions. I think she is a coward for not stepping up and admitting she was wrong. I think she started this thread to make excuses for poor scores on a horse she says she's had for 7 months. I'm sorry but if I had my horse in full training for 7 months with a so called professional, they best not be scoring 50's at training level.

MarJ
Jun. 18, 2007, 03:59 PM
ESG, after some persuading from my fellow dressage riders I read the "Shadbelly" post and then made it a point to watch you ride this past weekend and then saw your post on here.

You post that you want a competition legal remedy for a sore back so I scream to you "Get your horses back up!" at the top of my lungs!

You updated to say that it was not her back but if she was twitching when you combed out her mane and looked a little short behind it probably WAS her back. Also the bolting in your rides reflects back pain as well as her head tossing and pissieness. After 7 months of training I would have hoped she would have developed more rider carrying muscles, she had a dippy back and a large tummy, lacked swing, reach to the bit and any king of hind end engagement. After 7 months of riding her like that I can see how the saddle would now ride up, dig into her shoulder blades and make her withers sore. I am not trying to be nasty, you asked for a solution.

Also, those of you who are bringing up the "Confidentiality Card" towards scribes, no one said anything out of line or spoke a word of what the judge said so I can only assume you are directing those comments to ESG about her shadbellie post after she stated that some riders got 1's, etc. As ESG has stated scores are public and two 50%'s show that she indeed did not fulfill the directives for the test. It doesn't take sitting next to the judge to figure that out or even watching the rides for yourself.

If it was my horse I would put her neck down and get the hind legs up under her. She needs to swing her hind legs to where they effect/use the back muscles. You are a bit short in height so make sure to sit as tall as you can and use your core muscles to stabilize your torso in your posting and sitting trot so you can help the hind legs and back swing up under you. She dose appear to have the sort of trot the sucks you down and you must resist the urge and ask her to come up to you. Hope this helps! She looks like a nice mare!
MJ

flshgordon
Jun. 18, 2007, 04:16 PM
Apparently several of you have forgotten that in the original topic, NO names were mentioned, NO specific scores were given and no one was singled out by ESG. NO WHERE did she say every FEI rider at the show sucked, but of course some of you got your nose stepped on because you think she "might have" been talking about an acquaintance of yours.

While I think everyone agrees (including myself) that the original topic was off-color in its presentation, she still was not wrong about at least some of the rides and anyone can look up the scores between the first two shows of the year here and see the OBVIOUS difference. Some riders were surely overfaced at that show (or else everyone in the area just had a bad day all at the same time). I just don't get what is wrong with someone pointing that out? Several of us remarked in other divisions at another show that the scores were lower than traditionally in this area but not roughly TEN TO FIFTEEN PERCENT lower.

Those of you on a personal witchunt are just flat out of line and about 1 million times more immature than that which you so vehemently snipe about. This didn't need to become personal because ESG didnt make it personal. I'll say again, some of you should be more than ashamed (that word doesn't even cut it) for the BS you engaged in this weekend.

Lastly, ANY rider FEI or otherwise that didn't like what she had to say had the opportunity to come here and defend him/herself if they were all that bothered by it. NO ONE did, in spite of all the pot-stirring a couple of you tried. So apparently it matters more to those of you with an ax to grind than to those she may or may not have been talking about.

inca
Jun. 18, 2007, 04:43 PM
How about we break out the wine and chocolate?

I'll have a glass of moscato and a nice lady godiva truffle (okay, maybe 2 or 3 truffles!)

Anyone else?!

STF
Jun. 18, 2007, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by STF http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2508446#post2508446)
I cant anwser that, but it would be nice to see more postive outcomes of shows and people who support and promote the sport, than hinder it. Im sure there are tons of riders here that ride but dont show that read this thread. This type of ugly nonsense only hinders our sport overall, more than any one person trying to "make a point" to ESG.

Some need to look beyond their own noses and see what else is there they are hurting........

Let me put this more bluntly. I think it's sad that people feel the need to put others down. And I'm very sorry for people who are hurt by remarks like that.

For myself, I don't give a crap what ESG, snarky railbirds or anyone else thinks of my riding. If someone wants to snicker, make snide remarks out loud, or scribe and then post snotty remarks on the internet about it, that's his or her character issue.

What I think really sucks is bute-ing up a horse for a show, especially if you don't know why he's sore. I would be mad as hell if a trainer did that to my horse.

It is pretty much de rigeur in some circles for Arabian showing. I had to make it clear to anyone who worked with my horses that "better living through chemistry" did not apply where they were concerned. (And, yes, I've had to scratch and was out $700 in show fees because of it.) Is this more or less common in the dressage world? I'm hoping less ...

Anyone?
__________________


I think it depends on the situation. If it were a trainer on a client horse who was a ribbon chaser then the owner of the horse may push the rider to do so. But each situation could be different.
Personally, my horse comes first. But I dont reply on this sport to make my living either as some trainer do and need that check from a client.


My problem with ESG is that she does not take responsibility for her words and actions. I think she is a coward for not stepping up and admitting she was wrong. I think she started this thread to make excuses for poor scores on a horse she says she's had for 7 months. I'm sorry but if I had my horse in full training for 7 months with a so called professional, they best not be scoring 50's at training level.

Ryka, your a bitter person toward ESG. We can ALL see your hate for her and that is fine and dandy, but really........WHO CARES except a few of you who recently joined just to ESG bash!!! WHO cares if she scores a 40...... a 30 or even gets eliminated. Its all about an opinion and everyone has one these days. ESG gave her opinion of the show when she scribed. She did not mention names, etc. She GAVE AN OPINION! Who gives a shit about an opinion? Not me, says the big blonde Swede! :lol:

All of you that keep bitching and bitching and ummmm, bitching some more, are doing nothing more than what your pissed off at her for. What makes you any better to judge and slam her? Are you doing anything different than what you *gasp* accuse her of being, what did you call.....unclassy?? Really, this is really being hypocritical, if it ever was one.




I was talking to someone who was at the Houston show last weekend and they commented on how some trainer and riders just walk around with their head down, not talking, not engaging in coversations.
AND YA WONDER WHY??? LMAO READ THIS CRAP ON THIS THREAD! Who would want to even say hello to anyone, someone might mistake it and take it for something it was not and become the next antichrist for the alias behind the keyboards to rip apart.

Carry on.........

STF
Jun. 18, 2007, 04:59 PM
How about we break out the wine and chocolate?

I'll have a glass of moscato and a nice lady godiva truffle (okay, maybe 2 or 3 truffles!)

Anyone else?!


No kidding, bring on the wine. Lots of it! I swear at the next show, Im gona offer free wine to all participants and mandatory for railbirds!

mp
Jun. 18, 2007, 05:15 PM
I think it depends on the situation. If it were a trainer on a client horse who was a ribbon chaser then the owner of the horse may push the rider to do so. But each situation could be different.
Personally, my horse comes first. But I dont reply on this sport to make my living either as some trainer do and need that check from a client.
.

Thanks, STF. I completely understand about pros who need to keep the owner happy and the horse in their barn. That happens in the breed world, too.

What floored me about breed showing was the number of people with horses in big show barns who routinely got big vet bills for unspecified drugs that were were given to their horses -- without their prior approval or knowledge. :eek:

I had a horse with a big-name trainer for about 6 months. We had a discussion beforehand about expectations. As in, if you drug (or ginger) my horse, I'll come down there and do the same to you. He laughed and said "Whatever you say. It's your horse and you're paying the bills."

STF
Jun. 18, 2007, 05:25 PM
Thats sad, but not uncommon. I love our horses and want them to last as long as possible. Its not about the ribbons after you get to a certain age and stage of life (my opinion), it becomes more of the relationship and goals you set for with yourself and your horse.
But..... again, Im not a youngster anymore.

melodiousaphony
Jun. 18, 2007, 05:44 PM
Its not about the ribbons after you get to a certain age and stage of life (my opinion), it becomes more of the relationship and goals you set for with yourself and your horse.

I really wanted to start taking my gelding to some dressage shows (schooling, not rated) to get feedback as I work on our dressage as it pertains to our eventing career. For me, it is about improving my relationship with him and our communication; shows are a way to gain feedback as it pertains to "correctness" and so on from the point of view of someone who can see the whole picture and has an educated eye.

Knowing I'm at risk of being snarked by scribes while riding is not going to help my nerves at all. Nor is it going to really encourage me to peruse schooling dressage beyond at home and at HT, which is sad as I think it is an important relationship building tool. :no: I shouldn't have to go into the ring with the knowledge that I'm under not just a critical eye, but a snarky eye, of those who are there to help me in bettering my riding.

Coreene
Jun. 18, 2007, 05:48 PM
Oh my!

MarJ
Jun. 18, 2007, 05:49 PM
ESG has a lot of friends (well, the same 4 or 5 anyway) on here that love to defend her and stick up for her. Perhaps she herself would like to chime in and stick up for herself for once and take responsibility for HER actions. Or better yet she could take the higher road and squeek out a painless I'm Sorry and end all of this right here and right now....... if you all are really that sick of reading about it.

Here I'll help. Let's type it together I - ' - M - S - O - R - R - Y. See no blood loss or heart failure!:lol: Or possibly she likes all the publicity??? I hadn't a clue who she was until this but I won't soon forget!

If SHE herself wants this to end then SHE is going to have to make an effort to mend her ways.

And Uh, hum, might I add.....How is it OK for her to crap on people and not expect to get it in return? Suck it up, take it like a woman and lose the double standard.

Pommederue
Jun. 18, 2007, 05:50 PM
ESG, it's the pot calling the kettle black. Why does she keep posting these threads and then leaving you to clean up her mess? STF, you must be a very good friend.

Ryka
Jun. 18, 2007, 05:51 PM
I'm not bitter towards ESG, but I think she needs to take responsibility for her actions. I would expect that of ANYONE.

SillyHorse
Jun. 18, 2007, 05:53 PM
IKnowing I'm at risk of being snarked by scribes while riding is not going to help my nerves at all. Nor is it going to really encourage me to peruse schooling dressage beyond at home and at HT, which is sad as I think it is an important relationship building tool. :no: I shouldn't have to go into the ring with the knowledge that I'm under not just a critical eye, but a snarky eye, of those who are there to help me in bettering my riding.
Why should you care what a scribe is thinking? Forget the scribes! Most are too busy listening, writing, and learning to be forming opinions about you. The ones who are more interested in snarking than learning aren't worth worrying about.

Don't those of you attacking ESF (and now STF) understand that ESG did not attack anyone personally. She made an observation and gave voice to her opinion. Maybe it was ill conceived, but it was just an observation and an opinion. She must have been correct, judging by how up in arms people are.

Dalfan
Jun. 18, 2007, 05:54 PM
It just seems that a select few (two in fact) have taken it upon themselves to avenge their friends, trainers, fellow riders, that ESG MIGHT have been talking about. No names were mentioned if I recall.

Probably even put the old shadbelly thread up in the restrooms/barns as well.

You two , I take it, won't be riding/showing any time soon will you? If I were closer, I'd definitely come watch you with vid in hand.

I do hope, J-Lu, someone passes a note regarding your behavior to the proper management personnel for consideration as a scribe.

Dalfan
Jun. 18, 2007, 05:57 PM
MarJ; Are you one of the riders ESG spoke about in the shadbelly thread? An acquaintance/friend?

melodiousaphony
Jun. 18, 2007, 05:57 PM
Why should you care what a scribe is thinking? Forget the scribes! Most are too busy listening, writing, and learning to be forming opinions about you. The ones who are more interested in snarking than learning aren't worth worrying about.

'Cause I worry about *everything* (reflected in the comments that go something like "capable pair but..." on my tests). It also saddens me to see part of that "DQ" attitude so often joked about by people outside the discipline being displayed. I know there are "bad apples" in every bunch, but the jumping down throats by both sides reflects really poorly on the attitudes of people in the dressage community. I'd be more apt (and was) to get on someone's care about drugging to do something like a Training Level dressage test when you don't know what the problem is than drudge up an argument about a totally different thread, especially when it comes down to bashing a test a rider was obviously nervous about riding in the first place (whether or not she picked apart someone else's).

slc2
Jun. 18, 2007, 06:01 PM
I don't show horses that are off. I scratch them. And I think ESG shouldn't be surprised if she gets ragged on just as she did, for posting a busy show schedule and asking which medication to use on this busy horse and keep him going and legal. I think that stinks. If the horse is off enough for you to be able to see, don't show it. ESPECIALLY if yo udon't know why the horse is lame. I don't care if some medications are legal, compared to the international drug rules, our national drug program for show horses is like a camp for addicts. I don't give meds just cause the rules allow it. If the judge disqualifies you, that will follow you a lot longer than you like, too.

At the same time, I don't like to see people judging someone as 'well, I didn't like your post on FEI riders that stink that yo umade a few weeks ago, so I'm gonna rag on you for a while just on general principles'.

I think that's absolute rubbish, to keep ragging on someone for something they said in the past. It's small and childish. Move on. Besides, the next post is plenty to rag on. Try to focus on that.

MarJ
Jun. 18, 2007, 06:06 PM
MarJ; Are you one of the riders ESG spoke about in the shadbelly thread? An acquaintance/friend?


:no:

SillyHorse
Jun. 18, 2007, 06:08 PM
'Cause I worry about *everything* (reflected in the comments that go something like "capable pair but..." on my tests).
You know, all you can do is go in there and ride, and afterwards pay attention to the part that follows the "but..." (and be pleased that the judge thinks you're a capable pair ;) ).

Tamara in TN
Jun. 18, 2007, 06:12 PM
Knowing I'm at risk of being snarked by scribes while riding is not going to help my nerves at all. Nor is it going to really encourage me to peruse schooling dressage beyond at home and at HT, which is sad as I think it is an important relationship building tool. :no: I shouldn't have to go into the ring with the knowledge that I'm under not just a critical eye, but a snarky eye, of those who are there to help me in bettering my riding.

First off let me say,take your horse and ride him....:yes::yes: it is why you got him

to the general readership of this thread an open question....knowing in advance my moderate dis-interest in dressagyy as a "sport" other than to know my friends do well and seem to like it....could you answer a question for me ???

given the quoted above and understanding that judges write comments for the riders to ponder and wail about later...;) are they really there to help you ride better ??? would they say..."heavy on forehand" or would they say "if you'd lighten your hands and sit up for gods sakes your animal would do better for you and be less heavy on the forehand""

they must be limited somehow,to what they see, but are they allowed to make the suggestions as to how to "better " the animal...or is it universally accepted that everyine knows how to fix a "heavy forehand" ???? or does one break out a bevy of things to "fix" "heavy on the forehand" and try again in a month ????

looking forward to the thoughts

Tamara in TN

Dalfan
Jun. 18, 2007, 06:15 PM
MarJ; Not a friend/acq/rider - then since you just joined and zeroed in on this thread - you must know and not like her, correct?

Dalfan
Jun. 18, 2007, 06:19 PM
They are there to judge horse and rider, for the specific test ridden in front of them, movement by movement and overall performance. Not there to "train" your horse/rider for you. If they see "on the forehand", they are not required/likely to tell you how to get him off the forehand.

Sonesta
Jun. 18, 2007, 06:20 PM
Dressage judges are not allowed to make any comment that would seem like "instruction" or "teaching" of the rider. It's not the judge's job. They are to report what they see wrong with the horse or rider but not allowed to tell them how to fix it. That's up to the rider and their trainer.

Ryka
Jun. 18, 2007, 06:27 PM
It just seems that a select few (two in fact) have taken it upon themselves to avenge their friends, trainers, fellow riders, that ESG MIGHT have been talking about. No names were mentioned if I recall.

Probably even put the old shadbelly thread up in the restrooms/barns as well.

You two , I take it, won't be riding/showing any time soon will you? If I were closer, I'd definitely come watch you with vid in hand.

I do hope, J-Lu, someone passes a note regarding your behavior to the proper management personnel for consideration as a scribe.

If you are counting me in that two person count you need not bother. I'm not a region 9 resident, but I had some contact me through this board and Texas riders are deeply insulted an apparent nobody bitches about their scores at fei levels when ESG can't even get a w/t/c test down on a horse she's had for many months.

melodiousaphony
Jun. 18, 2007, 06:28 PM
Tamara - I do ride my horse, 5-6 days a week, take lessons, etc.

As for dressage tests improving my riding: I find it helpful to know what, in particular, I am making mistakes big enough to appear say, three or four times in my test so I can make sure I keep them in mind when I ride my next test. I do NOT expect a judge to tell me how to fix those problems. In some cases, I know how to fix said problem but I loose a little bit of focus when I step between those good ol' chains and start going down center line. It's helpful in formulating a mental check list in order of importance. Obviously, forward (for me) is up at the top. If I have that mentioned a few times, I know that I probably grew too nervous and probably held him back a bit/didn't encourage him forward enough. Basically: I like to know what the gaps are between my schooling vs. in a dressage ring. It helps point out what isn't necessarily as solid as I think it is when I'm schooling.

I don't show at a very high level. For me, it's all training, competition or not, recognized or not. If I did not think that way and only cared about ribbons, I would have quit riding a long time ago. Thankfully, thinking this way and improving what needs improving has moved me into the ribbons, etc.

MarJ
Jun. 18, 2007, 06:32 PM
MarJ; Not a friend/acq/rider - then since you just joined and zeroed in on this thread - you must know and not like her, correct?

Read my posts and I think you'll answer your own question. It is not a matter of liking or disliking, just commenting on what I have read and seen for myself. Horse has a sore back and ESG was worried about it so I gave my opinion. People are up in arms over the so called ESG bashing so I gave a solution for that too.

Why do you have such a problem with it/me? Do YOU know her? Have YOU seen her ride?

Tamara in TN
Jun. 18, 2007, 06:39 PM
Tamara - I do ride my horse, 5-6 days a week, take lessons, etc.
.

I meant in front of others at this show you want to go to...ignore snippy people from all sides and enjoy your horse;)

Tamara in TN

Dalfan
Jun. 18, 2007, 06:45 PM
If you are counting me in that two person count you need not bother. I'm not a region 9 resident, but I had some contact me through this board and Texas riders are deeply insulted an apparent nobody bitches about their scores at fei levels when ESG can't even get a w/t/c test down on a horse she's had for many months.

I was and am. So these people who contacted you - couldn't they have come on this board and talked to her themselves? Seems kind of strange that they would lobby you to address the issue.

And I don't remember ESG saying ALL texas riders were showing at a level they shouldn't be. And no names were mentioned.

Just seems that you have an axe to grind.

Tamara in TN
Jun. 18, 2007, 06:59 PM
Dressage judges are not allowed to make any comment that would seem like "instruction" or "teaching" of the rider. It's not the judge's job. They are to report what they see wrong with the horse or rider but not allowed to tell them how to fix it. That's up to the rider and their trainer.

so then to carry the thought one level farther (or deeper :lol::lol:) ???? the judge will tell them what's wrong....they go back to the trainers and say "His Honor" :winkgrin: said "<this>" and then the trainers fix it...ok


should the trainer not have known before hand what the judge would say ? see that's where the whole dressage thing loses me...at that point....

Tamara in TN

Dalfan
Jun. 18, 2007, 07:02 PM
Horse has a sore back and ESG was worried about it so I gave my opinion. People are up in arms over the so called ESG bashing so I gave a solution for that too.

Addressing the subject of her initial post, ie, sore back, whether or not to ride or give medication is fair game.

But what J-lu did was classless. Bringing up her performance at a show, JUST to "get back" at her for a previous post is nasty. I don't recall her asking the railbirds for a critique of her riding.


Why do you have such a problem with it/me? Do YOU know her? Have YOU seen her ride?

I don't. No. No. Your motives/intentions seem less than pure, IMHO.

mp
Jun. 18, 2007, 07:06 PM
so then to carry the thought one level farther (or deeper :lol::lol:) ???? the judge will tell them what's wrong....they go back to the trainers and say "His Honor" :winkgrin: said "<this>" and then the trainers fix it...ok


should the trainer not have known before hand what the judge would say ? see that's where the whole dressage thing loses me...at that point....

Tamara in TN

Speaking for myself, I have never seen anything on the scores or comments that I (or my instructor) was surprised to see. I have a pretty good idea of what our strengths and weaknesses are.

And "knowing" what you're supposed to do and actually "doing" it in the ring are two very different things. ;)

STF
Jun. 18, 2007, 07:08 PM
Seems like ESG posted two really moronic threads recently and STF comes here and defends her like a child.

STF, "who cares?" Most people don't but when it's posted in a public forum in a such a derogatory manner by ESG, many people on this board do care and were offended. Now for ESG, it's the pot calling the kettle black. Why does she keep posting these threads and then leaving you to clean up her mess? STF, you must be a very good friend.


I tell ESG when I think she is wrong. Trust me. We are on a very blunt type of friendship. She can always count on me to tell her to pull her head out of her a** as well as to tell her when I think she is wrong. I told her I was not happy about the Shadbelly thread and such then too. I dont take up for people in general, but I take up for things I think are right. I dont always agree with ESG, what she posts or the blunt/crude way she can do things, but at least I know one thing when she says things is she tell things like she sees them and you dont have to wonder what she is saying behind your back as a lot of others in this industry do.
I honestly would rather have a friend like ESG and not have the type that act all nice and friendly to your face only to talk horrible things behind your back.

STF
Jun. 18, 2007, 07:14 PM
If you are counting me in that two person count you need not bother. I'm not a region 9 resident, but I had some contact me through this board and Texas riders are deeply insulted an apparent nobody bitches about their scores at fei levels when ESG can't even get a w/t/c test down on a horse she's had for many months.

Each ride down the center line is a different one... thank God! :yes:

Ryka
Jun. 18, 2007, 07:17 PM
I'm not stopping anyone from doing anything. Just conversation about the other thread and how they agreed with my P.O.V.

I've already stated my issue with ESG, she won't own up to her actions and I think it is cowardly.

STF
Jun. 18, 2007, 07:22 PM
I've already stated my issue with ESG, she won't own up to her actions and I think it is cowardly.

Giving ones opinion (just as many give opinions on rides at WEG, ROLEX, etc) is nothing wrong. Discussing rides and such is not wrong. We can sit here all day and talk about how we felt about Anky or Lisa W's rides, but if someone says in overall genreal opinion that the upper level rides at a certain rated show was lacking, then she is a coward? A coward would be someone coming on with a fake name and slamming someone. At least Beth has her name and farm name listed to her opinions. Far from a cowardly move there.

So whats the difference in discussing some big CDI ride, than a local show rides?
None.... really! Thank goodness the big pros dont get on here and cry everytime they get their feelings hurt due to someone giving a opinion of their ride! :lol: Poor Anky would be busy all freakin day :lol: and not be able to ride! :lol: :lol:

Ok, how is this! -
ESG, your a raving bitch who cant ride and your underwear are to tight!

Does that make you feel better Ryka?

MarJ
Jun. 18, 2007, 07:41 PM
Addressing the subject of her initial post, ie, sore back, whether or not to ride or give medication is fair game.

But what J-lu did was classless. Bringing up her performance at a show, JUST to "get back" at her for a previous post is nasty. I don't recall her asking the railbirds for a critique of her riding.



I don't. No. No. Your motives/intentions seem less than pure, IMHO.

Then please address J-Lu and not me next time. I saw the horse go and gave my HO just like you are here. I didn't/don't attack you for sticking up for her even though I think she is wrong on many accounts for what she has said on here and is only getting back what she shoveled out. Again IMHO.

You can't say you wouldn't at least be a little interested to see if her "bark was as big as her bite" after what she posted about FEI riders in her area, mainly the GP riders. I am sure you too would have had a gander givin the opportunity just to see what all the hub bub was about.

To touch on another post where someone stated that no names were mentioned in the "Shadbelly" post.....there were only a handful of GP rides and some one posted the link to the scores, which were posted on the HDS website, so how was one not to know who she was talking about rider and area wise? So yes she did in a way name names. She also cited specific scores. 1's......

Also, can someone please tell me where J-Lu said anything out of line scribe wise? She did not post comments the judge made. She just let ESG know that she was her scribe. Getting a 50% (well,two of them) shows that you did not meet the requirements for the level plain and simple. The judge didn't tell her that.

STF
Jun. 18, 2007, 07:52 PM
MarJ -
We get the picture, you hate her. You HATE ESG! Fine!

Dalfan & I both said we did not agree with the tone ESG used in the shadbelly thread. Were just saying ENOUGH! Gosh, we get the point! ESG ride was horrible, she is a shitty trainer and worthles to the equine world per some of your comments and observations.
Now, can we move on??? There are other people to rip apart, talk bad about and try to ruin over the internet isnt there?

MarJ
Jun. 18, 2007, 07:57 PM
MarJ -
We get the picture, you hate her. You HATE ESG! Fine!

Dalfan & I both said we did not agree with the tone ESG used in the shadbelly thread. Were just saying ENOUGH! Gosh, we get the point! ESG ride was horrible, she is a shitty trainer and worthles to the equine world per some of your comments and observations.
Now, can we move on??? There are other people to rip apart, talk bad about and try to ruin over the internet isnt there?

I NEVER said I hated her, I don't even know her. She commented on the rides at the last show and I am commenting on hers. How is that any different?

I think you are taking all of this a bit to personally. Again, I say, if ESG wants this crap to stop she has the power to do it.

STF
Jun. 18, 2007, 08:05 PM
Personally, no......
Im just bored and its to hot to do anything outside without dying from the heat.
Im very much for minding my own and doing my own thing. Even when someone messes up, I tell them good job. Im not one to judge anymore. 5 yrs ago, I was a raving bitch......... I can admit it! Now, Ive changed, life has changed me and I realized each ride down that centerline is a different ride and different day..... Life goes on.
And Im sure Beths ride would have been in the 70s if her damn red leather thong would not have been riding up her butt! Really....... its very uncomfortable to have happen!

Ryka
Jun. 18, 2007, 08:20 PM
Giving ones opinion (just as many give opinions on rides at WEG, ROLEX, etc) is nothing wrong. Discussing rides and such is not wrong. We can sit here all day and talk about how we felt about Anky or Lisa W's rides, but if someone says in overall genreal opinion that the upper level rides at a certain rated show was lacking, then she is a coward? A coward would be someone coming on with a fake name and slamming someone. At least Beth has her name and farm name listed to her opinions. Far from a cowardly move there.

So whats the difference in discussing some big CDI ride, than a local show rides?
None.... really! Thank goodness the big pros dont get on here and cry everytime they get their feelings hurt due to someone giving a opinion of their ride! :lol: Poor Anky would be busy all freakin day :lol: and not be able to ride! :lol: :lol:

Ok, how is this! -
ESG, your a raving bitch who cant ride and your underwear are to tight!

Does that make you feel better Ryka?

I never said ESG is a bitch, and some people like their undies tight=D

Oh and I dare say ESG hasn't already been successful at ruining herself all on her own. In my humble opinion.

MarJ
Jun. 18, 2007, 08:41 PM
Seems to me like Dalfan and STF are the main two posters who keep this thread going. If you want it to stop then you two need to stop posting. Most would not have posted again had you two not kept defending her and kept dragging this out. If ESG is so up in arms over this as much as you two are I am sure she would have done something about it by now.

Yes, Dalfan and STF you two did not like her tone or what she said in her shadbelly post we get the picture. But the damage is done and a bigger person would have appologized a loooooooong time ago. Heck, if she had I would have never have read the OP about the last show, watched her ride or commented on here.

She is a big girl and can speak for herself and only she has the means to end this.

So, ESG care to end this?

Dalfan
Jun. 18, 2007, 08:52 PM
Seems to me like Dalfan and STF are the main two posters who keep this thread going. If you want it to stop then you two need to stop posting.

Suffice it to say, I wouldn't have been posting if you and J-Lu did not come to this thread and start posting about her ride.

MarJ; You are the newbie that just had to be talked into reading and participating on this thread. All your posts are on this thread. Don't you think that is a little...peculiar? Unless, of course, you have a bone to pick as well.

If you want me to stop posting, stop including my name in your posts. You are, afterall, directing questions/statements at me - should I not respond?

Dressage-ryder
Jun. 18, 2007, 09:51 PM
Ok, I have no dog in this fight.. Just want to say that first.I also never sugar coat anything, so here it goes.
I think that this is so silly... Someone posted about how bad the FEI rides were at a show.. and yes, 50% is bad, if you the riders are offended by that than get better scores. Anyone who thinks 50% is good.. Yikes for the future of dressage!!! I think its important to talk about our current FEI riders,not single anyone out, but as a whole...They will be the ones representing the US for Pan Am, World Cup, Olym. etc.Isn't Anky the topic of much harsh talk? Does she come on here and pick on everyone who questions her? If the quality of our FEI riders is poor, something should be done and discussed, maybe more training programs?Clinics?
No names we mentioned in the shadbelly thread, just overall observation. This is much different, you are picking on someone because her opinion.If this was anyone else you all would be saying " Chalk it up to a bad ride". Why are some of you so offended about her post? She made post about how poor the riding was for the FEI level at a show, The scores confirm her comments.. Why is everyone in a huff? Stop taking it so personally, she didn't call you all out by name. This just makes dressage look bad.

Why do you keep wanting her to say sorry? Because she made a true statement? Gosh, I am the first to say.. " that ride sucked" and my trainer is the second to say " that ride sucked" if things don't go as planned. Get real, if your rides were bad they were bad...Be big enough to admit that you have some work to do. Don't keep begging for an "I'm Sorry" from someone who had an opinion, it looks desperate.I have always found the best thing to shut someone up is to not give them anything to talk about! I bet if some of those %50 riders get %63+ next time it will be enough self satisfaction that some silly post on a BB wont matter.

I feel sorry for those who got their feelings hurt on the other thread, but again, no names were mentioned there. On this thread its like a gang mentality trying to get even..and its quite ugly. :) Have a good night!

Bogey2
Jun. 18, 2007, 09:54 PM
I'm running out of popcorn these days

Liz
Jun. 18, 2007, 10:05 PM
Bogey - maybe we can derail this train wreck.

Today I saw a Parelli instructer practicing rollkur while quoting Anky.

Anyone see anything more controversial than that?

Dressage-ryder
Jun. 18, 2007, 10:08 PM
:) Wow Liz! Did you get pics/Video? I bet you could get the thread with most replies if you have proof of this trainer!

Liz
Jun. 18, 2007, 10:15 PM
You know I did not get her name but after the rollkur demonstration, during the lecture portion, she was discussing why Arabs and Quarter horses can't do dressage.

She was also able to point out the many simmilarities between western pleasure and upper level dressage.

STF
Jun. 18, 2007, 11:35 PM
I love Linda P. She is my hero!!!

Eq3nStar
Jun. 19, 2007, 12:19 AM
Bogey - maybe we can derail this train wreck.

Today I saw a Parelli instructer practicing rollkur while quoting Anky.

Anyone see anything more controversial than that?

C'mon- you can do better than that- The Parelli instructor was practicing rollkur in a BAERFOOT horse while quoting Anky who was disparaging alfalfa! :lol:

Liz
Jun. 19, 2007, 12:32 AM
At the same time she was saying that dressage riders do not know how to appreciate western riding.

inca
Jun. 19, 2007, 12:36 AM
Were there majikal gypsy vanners involved somehow?

Sonesta
Jun. 19, 2007, 12:37 AM
Were there majikal gypsy vanners involved somehow?

I think Anky's newest Grand Prix horse is a MGV!

JackSprats Mom
Jun. 19, 2007, 12:42 AM
OMG :eek::eek::eek:

All I can say is THANK GOD the dressage shows I go to don't have folks like this...you know, we're actually NICE to each other and supportive (supportive in that we share the beer :D).

Y'all need to stop worrying about what others are doing and pay attention to what you do.

Liz
Jun. 19, 2007, 12:50 AM
In reference to the gypsy vanners (as brought up by inca)....according to my western loving, alfalfa eating, shoeless, rollkur using, Anky worshiping, Arabian and quarter horse hating, Parelli instruster (that I saw today)....there is no such thing as a gypsy vanner. They are like unicorns and appaloosa's that can do dressage...a figment of your imagination.

STF
Jun. 19, 2007, 01:13 AM
I want a Gyspy Vanner, so I can take my small curcuit riding, X Floridian, now Texas fat self to shows on!
:(
How come Anky gets all the REAL fun!

Sabine
Jun. 19, 2007, 01:41 AM
C'mon- you can do better than that- The Parelli instructor was practicing rollkur in a BAERFOOT horse while quoting Anky who was disparaging alfalfa! :lol:

you forgot to add- on a treeless saddle - with a shoeless horse- and of course- never forget- a bitless bridle...YEAH!

slc2
Jun. 19, 2007, 10:28 AM
Ryka, I'm not sure your posts here are a whole lot better than the one griping about FEI scores. I'd rank them about the same in out and out MIAOWNESS.

ESG may be a lot of things, but cowardly isn't one of them.

She is just as opinionated as most horse people are - which is EXTREMELY opinionated. This is just a matter of people ganging up on her here on a bulletin board - the cheerleader mentality turned to the Jaws III mentality.

I doubt there is one among you who hasn't had a lame horse and said, maybe I can just squeeze this out if I do such and such. There are many posts here each year with people stating such and plenty of videos with lame horses on them labeled, 'I need to get ready for a show, how should I hold my reins?' when the horse is practically three legged lame. And I see enough lame horses at shows to know that SOMEONE out there is showing them.

So if you are going to get all high and mighty about it, keep in mind, we all make mistakes with our horses. And ESG isn't the only one who ever complained about FEI riders scores.

In fact, just about every time I go to a show, I hear people, some of whom post here quite frequently, loudly bitching about how badly so and so rides - then they come here and piously say they would never do such a thing. We even have people here who think it's BETTER to talk behind the rider's back or whisper. How's that for cowardly.

Why, I recally going to a show a few years ago with a couple of COH regulars who were so vocal in their snotty remarks about the riders that it was mortifying, and they're sounding pretty pious on this thread. I wonder how that could be. So while you're casting stones, lob a couple in your own direction :lol:

Liz
Jun. 19, 2007, 11:05 AM
Lets follow this thread on the controversial path it is taking us. We are talking about Anky, rollkur, barefoot horses, alfalfa, bitless bridles, treeless saddles, western pleasure (and our inability to appreciate it), and the mythical beasts Gypsy Vanners...Unicorns...and Appaloosa's that do dressage.


Oh, not to forget...another myth...the Texan showing a GV in Florida. That is like a modern Fairey tale.

Ryka
Jun. 19, 2007, 11:06 AM
Reading all the responses and hearing the "well don’t sugar coat it", "well don't single out certain levels, at a certain show, with only X amount of riders." I figured out quite quickly by pulling up the ride times and comparing them to ESG's comments on her shadbelly thread just exactly who she might be talking of. Using people's initials when those are the only initials in that class-- quite obvious.

I really could care less if I'm any better, different, just alike, etc. to ESG. What I do care about is the fact that as a scribe you are trusted to keep your mouth shut about comments and INDIVIDUAL SCORES given by the judge to a rider, ESG failed to keep quiet. ESG is also pretty much calling kettle black... she complained that upper-level riders were getting WORSE, and that they shouldn't be scoring 50's at that level. IMHO a professional trainer who's had a horse in training for 7 months can't do better at TRAINING LEVEL? Basics for crying out loud!!

Then she comes on here and asks for quick fixes on a supposed ailment of a horse she's showing, and to me seemed like an excuse for rides she knew just might be bad... Why? Any number of reasons, but from what she described it sounds like SHE might be over-facing the horse. "Hello kettle, this is pot."

If ESG thinks Texas dressage is viewed so poorly, and scores are so low... she needs to help improve the situation if she wants to change, not add to the so called problem at hand.

You're right she's not cowardly, she's hypocritical.

mp
Jun. 19, 2007, 11:08 AM
I doubt there is one among you who hasn't had a lame horse and said, maybe I can just squeeze this out if I do such and such. There are many posts here each year with people stating such and plenty of videos with lame horses on them labeled, 'I need to get ready for a show, how should I hold my reins?' when the horse is practically three legged lame. And I see enough lame horses at shows to know that SOMEONE out there is showing them.

So if you are going to get all high and mighty about it, keep in mind, we all make mistakes with our horses. And ESG isn't the only one who ever complained about FEI riders scores.

In fact, just about every time I go to a show, I hear people, some of whom post here quite frequently, loudly bitching about how badly so and so rides - then they come here and piously say they would never do such a thing. We even have people here who think it's BETTER to talk behind the rider's back or whisper. How's that for cowardly.

Why, I recally going to a show a few years ago with a couple of COH regulars who were so vocal in their snotty remarks about the riders that it was mortifying, and they're sounding pretty pious on this thread. I wonder how that could be. So while you're casting stones, lob a couple in your own direction :lol:

Oh good, things were starting to settle down and here come the pronouncements.

Since you asked, no, I have never tried to squeeze a ride out of or show a sore or lame horse. I've forfeited substantial fees and a lot of training time and dollars for scratching them. And I've been without a horse to ride, even though I have several. Not fun. But if I don't feel good, I don't show or ride. I don't think my horses should have to either.

Yes, I've seen lame horses at shows. That proves there are a lot of clueless people in the world.

Yes, I've watched riders at shows (not just dressage shows) and at the barn and sometimes comment about it to someone else. Not often, but it does happen. What I don't do is post my comments on BBs where the riders will likely see them. Is that cowardly? No, I don't think so. I prefer to get along with people, even if I think their riding stinks. And, when it comes to horses, I avoid giving unasked for advice. If asked, I'd tell them what I thought.

And will those now pious COTHers who have attended shows with slc and made snotty comments please stand up? it's OK, you can post under an alter if you want.

SillyHorse
Jun. 19, 2007, 11:37 AM
I would guess that show occurred in slc's fantasy world.

SGray
Jun. 19, 2007, 11:41 AM
"I noticed that she wasn't keen on bringing her left hind up under her, and was walking unevenly. Just slightly, but I know this mare well enough that I could spot it."

you told us - "not her back" - what did you find? - an abcess?

egontoast
Jun. 19, 2007, 11:52 AM
Since you asked, no, I have never tried to squeeze a ride out of or show a sore or lame horse.

No. Absolutely not. Have you done this, slc?

Eq3nStar
Jun. 19, 2007, 12:14 PM
Lets follow this thread on the controversial path it is taking us.

:sigh: I guess it was too much to hope for :winkgrin:
ETA- so then WHY do I keep coming back??? It's like a car accident- I can't help staring! :eek:

Pommederue
Jun. 19, 2007, 12:33 PM
quote=Ryka;2510300

Then she comes on here and asks for quick fixes on a supposed ailment of a horse she's showing, and to me seemed like an excuse for rides she knew just might be bad... Why? Any number of reasons, but from what she described it sounds like SHE might be over-facing the horse. "Hello kettle, this is pot."

If ESG thinks Texas dressage is viewed so poorly, and scores are so low... she needs to help improve the situation if she wants to change, not add to the so called problem at hand.

You're right she's not cowardly, she's hypocritical.Totally agree.

And no, I have NEVER tried to squeeze a ride out of a lame horse...not even a horse with a swollen leg.

slc2
Jun. 19, 2007, 12:51 PM
Neither have I. If a horse was even 'I dunno...something not quite....right' I would be, 'Ok, time to scratch'. What I do at a show simply is not so important that I need to take risks with my horse. Maybe I will work a lame horse someday, maybe when I have to get the diptheria serum to Nome or something for the children. But for a horse show? Come on. In the grand scheme of things,, a horse show is just not that important, and neither is whether I ride in it or not, or get some silly club medal or award. Not compared to my horse's health. I don't think anyone's goals are more important than caring for their animal.

I didn't mean everyone does, what I meant was we all make mistakes.

I came from a world in which trainer's first trip at the show was to stroll around and see if the drug testing people were present at the show, then a couple horses would be scratched depending on the results of that hunt, and if the drug testers weren't there, the horses would get a needle before their amateur owners climbed on. ALOT of people do this, and a LOT of people come out of barns where this is ok. I've been at barns where going to a show meant packing an EXTREMELY extensive pack of medicines, and where horses were aced just to pull their danged manes, for heaven's sake. Think I'm making it up? Dream on.

I did see all these things, and I decided to do differently. Not everyone has yet. Regardless, people make mistakes, all of us. I don't think we need to keep quiet if someone is doing too much with a horse that's off, I think we should say something, but just keep in mind...everyone makes mistakes...everyone learns.

fiona
Jun. 19, 2007, 01:52 PM
I would guess that show occurred in slc's fantasy world.

Whoa!!! just what are you implying there missy?!!!
slc is not from the real world? You mean she's like one of those people in those internet worlds that is actually made up?
Wow!!! that is waaaayyy freaky.

who is it that types all the stuff then?

STF
Jun. 19, 2007, 01:52 PM
DAMN SLC!! You have 15,572 posts?????
How did you get that many and that is with your new login, not the old orginal slc!?!

STF
Jun. 19, 2007, 01:53 PM
Whoa!!! just what are you implying there missy?!!!
slc is not from the real world? You mean she's like one of those people in those internet worlds that is actually made up?
Wow!!! that is waaaayyy freaky.

who is it that types all the stuff then?


No, she is from Mars. They have their own dressage assn, ya know. They were little green shadbellys and ride lame horses. Its a well known trait there too.

HRSPWR
Jun. 19, 2007, 02:01 PM
When you propose to advertise yourself as a professional, you assume the higher responsibility level for your words, your practice and behaviors. You are placing yourself in the position of being an authority on your professional area and credited with that expertise (until you DIS credit yourself). You have to be VERY careful what you say about another professional (professional courtesy) and what opinions you offer, esp in writing and public! That is why you don't often see or hear a respected professional wielding words wildly! Or offering UNSOLICITED opinions. It is professional SUICIDE! People have very long memories and it is a VERY small world. Which is why most professionals in any area reserve their advice and comments to those who request, seek, contract and pay for them. Rarely do people value what is free, anyway. While being a scribe is not a "legal" thing, there is an expectation of courtesy and verbal caution. Dressage is an old, traditional art and hopefully respect and courtesy are cornerstones of that tradition. If one points the finger, one may get the finger pointed back. Don't start a tempest and you won't get pulled into one. I think ESG should show her professionalism and apologize for the manner in which she spoke originally, be more honest in her self evaluation and more careful with her words in the future. I think this thread should end the INSTANT she apologizes. I think everyone can learn a valuable lesson here- nobody is perfect, and words are very powerful. Use your words to encourage and celebrate how very lucky we all are to love our beautiful horses and have the privelege to own and be owned by them. As to the use of medication or potential shortcuts for a suddenly sore horse, was the horse properly conditioned for what was asked? Reiner Klimke has a very good book with recommendations for conditioning exercises to gymnasicize a horse in preparation for showing. Good luck to everyone. Use your arena mirrors and look at improving YOURSELF. It will keep you so busy, you won't have time or reason to worry about someone else!

retrofit
Jun. 19, 2007, 02:49 PM
^^ Best post yet. ^^

STF
Jun. 19, 2007, 02:58 PM
So when each of you get on here, and give an opinion of another person ride........ Stephan Peters, Anky, Leslie Morse, Lisa Wilcox, etc, etc, etc....... give an opinion of thier ride - that makes you a bad person??

ESG did not mention names at least, but she is the antichrist for giving her opinion, yet gave her opinion from her OWN login and not some lurking/alias.

EVERYONE has a right to an opinion. She does not need to apologize for having an opinion. She did not attack anyone one person directly, it was an overall statement if you go back and read the thread.

Seems there are a bit to many thin skinned people out there. Who cares what others think? If the rest of you are that consumed with ESG and what she thinks, you should be more concerned about what the rest of the rail birds are saying!!! Get a grip!

I hate to tell you but every time one of us go in the ring, some jackass is over there having a field day with negative and nasty things, the only thing different is it did not get posted on a BB, just spread all over the bleachers for the others to hear! *rolling eyes*

Pony Fixer
Jun. 19, 2007, 03:25 PM
I may be wrong, but I saw the original ESG shadbelly post as a general "FEI rides are not what they used to be" with a group of horses/riders she had seen and maybe scribed for for several years. That could be a trend, or everyone had a bad day at the same time. She apologized, IIRC.

So now she had the bad day. Is it a trend? Is she a bad rider/trainer? Who knows? Who cares? I think just because one has a bad day, or if indeed, one is a bad trainer, you can still comment your opinion of what you see around you.

I am not doing a great job at second level. When the planets align, my horse and I are low 60s. Far more commonly this season (our first at 2nd level, and believe me we were not dregs at Tr or 1st), we do not have it all together, and it is easy to get a 55%. I'm talking I have *never* scored below 60% previously and now I'm scratching and clawing for a high 50s. Do I suck? Maybe. Is the transition to 2nd level harder than anticipated. Definitely. Does this mean I can't make a comment like I did in another thread about the better quality in the 5 and 6 yo tests this year. Sure. Does anyone care about my comment (anyone that "matters")? Probably not. Does that mean I shouldn't comment? Nope, I have my right to an opinion. If you don't like it, ignore it, or give your opposing opinion so we can have an adult debate.

But don't attack people. That's just common.

slc2
Jun. 19, 2007, 03:25 PM
i'm paying it forward...so you're saying this is RIGHT, that this is OK, that this is GOOD? BECAUSE EVERYONE DOES IT? OH---MY---GOD!!!

:lol:

HRSPWR
Jun. 19, 2007, 03:33 PM
Dear STF- let it go!

Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But nobody is entitled to hurt others. When you say something and find you have offended someone, should you not apologize for hurting them, even if unintended? If I accidentally ran over you with a shopping cart in the grocery, would I not be expected to apologize and not blame you for being there, too? Common courtesy and think before you speak is all I'm suggesting to anyone. The only reason I can think of for the heated nature of several postings is the fact the OP (ESG) states she is a trainer, therefore and authority and was privy to the judges confidential statements which were alluded to in her OP. It is not difficult to look up names and rides at a show that is particularly mentioned, therefore ESG's comments were not of general and anonomous natures. That is why I think those competitors and others were offended. When we post our opinions, they should be kept non-personal so as not to deliberately injure if avoidable. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones is an old, but true adage. Can we not support each other in the pursuit of our passion? That is not to say that we should not be honest, just be kind.

Pony Fixer
Jun. 19, 2007, 09:12 PM
i'm paying it forward...so you're saying this is RIGHT, that this is OK, that this is GOOD? BECAUSE EVERYONE DOES IT? OH---MY---GOD!!!

:lol:

Are you referring to me?

...

And since anyone who wanted to know who these people ESG were had to look it up, doesn't that make you complicit? If it didn't matter, why would you look it up?

I'm not saying that she was right. I'm saying who cares, anyway. And while it isn't right for her to slam others, it is also not right for everyone to slam her. Mistakes were made, move on.

Pommederue
Jun. 19, 2007, 11:29 PM
I'm saying who cares, anyway.Pony Fixer and STF, we get it. YOU DON'T CARE!! Fine. But several intelligent people here do care and have written so. Get over it. Let it go. We care. It was personal. Can anyone say, "no class?"

Adamantane
Jun. 19, 2007, 11:56 PM
Bogey - maybe we can derail this train wreck.

Today I saw a Parelli instructer practicing rollkur while quoting Anky.

Anyone see anything more controversial than that?

Yes, the truly embarrassing reactions :o on the part of some members of this forum after ESG has the crust brazenly to post the irresponsible, unprofessional, bug-eyed, incendiary view that she believes the judgment of the PP acolyte seemed questionable.

Even worse, that without so much as first even attempting to seek the imprimatur of the clandestine Thought Police Clique, ESG unapologetically would post it.

The COTH server will overload keeping up with the fracas. :eek:


Those who don't admit their lack of utter certainty by sometimes asking for help, are those of whom the hard questions should be asked. Poor souls are either already perfect and thus past need for further education, or they are totally oblivious. :sadsmile:

Over time reality has many means remorselessly to test both extremes. Sometimes even in right out there in public. :yes:

Pommederue
Jun. 20, 2007, 12:25 AM
Thanks for your post Adamantane. I had to go to merriam-webster.com several times.

STF
Jun. 20, 2007, 12:31 AM
But several intelligent people

Oh, I see. I must fall in that group! Thanks, I was confused! :lol:

Madam Cleo
Jun. 20, 2007, 12:42 AM
I really could care less if I'm any better, different, just alike, etc. to ESG. What I do care about is the fact that as a scribe you are trusted to keep your mouth shut about comments and INDIVIDUAL SCORES given by the judge to a rider, ESG failed to keep quiet.

OMG ESG, you will be having the problemes now. You failed to keep quiet :rolleyes: Do you know how many opportunities are closed to you now? You won't have a chance as the emperor's wardrobe designer. You have no chance of working for Dick Cheney. And AG Gonzales, he won't look at your resume either. Rumor has it that Cardinal Mahoney in LA needs assistance. But recent court decisions aren't looking so good there either.

Maybe you'd better stick to dressage :yes:

Bonne chance, cherie :winkgrin:

Adamantane
Jun. 20, 2007, 12:50 AM
Thanks for your post Adamantane. I had to go to merriam-webster.com several times.

Sorry.:lol: We had a birthday party earlier tonight. (Not mine.:() When I have more than two glasses of wine, I get more wound up verbally. (I'll be back to my usual one syllable words, two word sentences and three sentence paragraphs tomorrow.:lol:)

siegi b.
Jun. 20, 2007, 09:23 AM
PUI ....... posting under the influence. Tsk, tsk, tsk...
No wonder it didn't make much sense. :-)

SillyHorse
Jun. 20, 2007, 09:51 AM
This, as a reminder, is ESG's original post:

...I've never before seen so many people wearing them that shouldn't be, as I did today. :rolleyes:

So, another USDF show today (and yesterday). I scribed this morning and early afternoon, for a wonderful judge. Started with GP and PSG this morning, followed by FEI freestyles and the odd I1 or I2 ride.

It wasn't pretty. :no:

Why, oh why, do people overface themselves and their horses? There were horses showing GP that would have been perfectly at home at 2nd/3rd. I won't go into the scores, except to say they were reflective of the rides. But, damn! I know why Texas dressage is viewed the way it is by the rest of the country.

A little later, Dalfan pretty much asked ESG to divulge what the judge had written or said:

I'm curious if the judges made any comments on the tests regarding her thoughts on the level they should be at, or not.

To which ESG replied, skirting the issue quite well:

And, Dalfan, I don't know whether or not the judges are allowed to make comments as you suggest. Certainly there were some observations made to me (and, to the other scribes, I'm sure) as to a particular horse/rider's fitness for a particular level of competition, but none of my judge's ever made it to paper. I'm thinking that they're not supposed to do anything but judge what's presented to them - period.

Personal? Divulging things a scribe should not divulge? I don't see it. ESG stated her opinion, did not name names or divulge scores, or even name the show. Some people responded in a reasonable manner:


The real tragedy is that a lot of the people don't leave the state and go to some big, good shows, elsewhere in the country to find out what it really can and should look like. It happens everywhere in the country, for a while. Then some brave souls go away and start to see what really competitive dressage looks like as you get to the higher levels, and they reset their expectations. Another thing that helps is going somewhere else and getting some lessons on trained FEI horses. That makes the most lasting impression.

and

I blame the judges (because I'm not one. lol!). But really, if a tempi change is crap, and the judges would actually SCORE it as crap (that's what - a 2? Yeah, pretty sure in the directives, 2=crap), maybe people would get the message. It's easy to convince yourself to move up if you consistently get low 60's. I think it would be harder if you actually saw a well deserved 40 once in awhile. Of course, you'd have to pay those judges big bucks to make it worth their time, because we know they'd never be invited back again.

It was a perfectly reasonable, rational discussion until the pros who assumed they were the ones who had the lousy rides jumped in all offended. That's when it turned ugly. ESG did not make it personal. The pros did.

Adamantane
Jun. 20, 2007, 09:56 AM
PUI ....... posting under the influence. Tsk, tsk, tsk...
No wonder it didn't make much sense. :-)

OK, back to the short words. :D (No hangover, btw.:) That only happens after the point I no longer can clearly say what I've written.;))

Siegi, it does make sense.:yes: Maybe you just don't agree with my point or much care for sarcasm?

Dalfan
Jun. 20, 2007, 09:58 AM
It was a perfectly reasonable, rational discussion until the pros who assumed they were the ones who had the lousy rides jumped in all offended.

I don't even think it was the pros who did it. Sounds more like their friends/students/acquaintances/barnmates who came on here and let everyone know who/where it was ESG was talking about.

SillyHorse
Jun. 20, 2007, 10:04 AM
You may be correct; I don't know any of the people involved in this circus. (Thank goodness.)

STF
Jun. 20, 2007, 11:12 AM
It was a perfectly reasonable, rational discussion until the pros who assumed they were the ones who had the lousy rides jumped in all offended. That's when it turned ugly. ESG did not make it personal. The pros did.

I dont think it was the pro's either. Most of the pro's know each day is a different ride and everyone is entitled to their opinion. If one is really secure with their riding and their abilities, opinions only make one laugh.
:lol:

Ponyclubrocks
Jun. 20, 2007, 11:13 AM
I am caught up in "As the Shadbelly Turns"...all I can say folks is thanks for the entertainment....:winkgrin:

STF
Jun. 20, 2007, 11:14 AM
But its kinda like the soap operas where the guy gets killed 4 times and STILL is found alive, again and again........
Getting old!

Tamara in TN
Jun. 20, 2007, 11:47 AM
But its kinda like the soap operas where the guy gets killed 4 times and STILL is found alive, again and again........
Getting old!


or like "Dark Shadows" where he was a vampire and lurked for centuries....:winkgrin: gosh I miss that show

Tamara in TN

fiona
Jun. 20, 2007, 12:24 PM
Siegi, it does make sense.

I'm with Siegi on that one, none of this thread makes sense.

Adamantane
Jun. 20, 2007, 01:03 PM
I'm with Siegi on that one, none of this thread makes sense.

In the bigger scheme of things, true, very little of this thread after the first few posts does make any sense.

Unless it was squelched by the moderators -- I haven't checked back -- there is this AM yet another new thread, the point of which seemed to be gratuitous abuse and ridicule of the OP on this and the Shadbelly thread. The children were running amok in Golding's Lord of the Flies, too, until adults finally showed up.:yes:

Pony Fixer
Jun. 20, 2007, 01:04 PM
Pony Fixer and STF, we get it. YOU DON'T CARE!! Fine. But several intelligent people here do care and have written so. Get over it. Let it go. We care. It was personal. Can anyone say, "no class?"

Oh, get off your high horse.

Ask yourself, and all your intelligent righteous indignation, WHY you care?

If you reread the post (or the snippets that SillyHorse reposted) you will see it was NOT personal. If you are going to jump on ESG's post or her opinions, do it to rebut said opinions, but let's leave the slamming out of it.

Pony Fixer
Jun. 20, 2007, 01:09 PM
I don't understand this either. :confused: That's why I, myself, am solely responsible for my horses. I don't board them, and I don't send them to trainers. They are far too valuable and precious to allow them to be handled in a manner I don't feel comfortable with. If a trainer drugged my horse to get them in the show ring, they would be fired, and my horse would be on the trailer coming home.

Yes, I will take ibuprofen for a back ache and ride anyway, but the difference is that I *know* what my problem is, and I *know* if I'm comfortable. If I'm not, I quit. But with horses, we just can't know that for certain. They could be in terrible pain and unable to convey the point.

Uh, again, we don't know if ESG actually DID anything for the horse that was "not quite right". And we don't know what it eventually turned out to be, either. She was asking for opinions and advice on the matter, which I doubt will happen again.

Why do we hold our equine athletes to this impossible standard that they should be drug free at all times AND 100% sound? They work hard, they accumulate damage (sometimes small). I take drugs to ease my aches and pains, why should we deny that luxury to our horses that tote our fat a$$es around?

And before anyone jumps on my case, I don't mean you just drug your horse willy nilly just for a piece of sateen ribbon. I mean just what I said--I don't expect my horse to be 100% comfortable 100% of the time, and I help him accordingly.

edited to add

And yes I know the FEI has a strong no drugs of any kind policy. I am not sure it is always in the best interest of the horse to have this policy, but I know why it exists (to prevent abuses).

Dressage-ryder
Jun. 20, 2007, 01:34 PM
To those who feel its important to have ESG say sorry and are so offended.. Do YOU think that scores of %50 are ok? You are aware that they scores are posted for public viewing, so why are you in a huff? Because someone saw bad riding and called it out?? Jeezzz...

HRSPWR
Jun. 20, 2007, 02:40 PM
Since this idiotic thread just will not die, I am curious.... Has anyone who has posted or read this or the related threads ever been to ESG's barn, taken lessons from her, watched any previous rides of hers, talked with any of her current or former students, or had much knowledge about her? Is this whole thing a fluke or is there some longstanding issue? Seems to have developed a life of its own! I never heard of ESG before, but I doubt she will be forgotten soon. Is there really some OTHER underlying issue?? She doesn't seem to post any more.

STF
Jun. 20, 2007, 02:48 PM
Since this idiotic thread just will not die, I am curious.... Has anyone who has posted or read this or the related threads ever been to ESG's barn
YES


taken lessons from her
NO

watched any previous rides of hers
YES

talked with any of her current or former students
YES


or had much knowledge about her?
MORE THAN MOST

Is this whole thing a fluke or is there some longstanding issue?
SHE EXPRESSED HER OPINION, PISSED THE WORLD OFF AND NOW THE DOG FIGHT WONT STOP. NO BIGGIE OTHER THAN PANTIES THAT ARE STUCK IN A WAD.


Seems to have developed a life of its own! I never heard of ESG before, but I doubt she will be forgotten soon. Is there really some OTHER underlying issue?? She doesn't seem to post any more.

WHY WOULD SHE? THE DOGS ARE JUST SITTING AROUND WAITING TO ATTACK. THEY CANT EVEN JUSTIFY WHY THEY ARE ATTACKING HER. GIVING AN OPINION OF A RIDE IS A CRIME, YA KNOW! EVEN IF YOU DONT MENTION THE NAMES OF THE RIDERS



:cool:

flshgordon
Jun. 20, 2007, 03:19 PM
Since this idiotic thread just will not die, I am curious.... Has anyone who has posted or read this or the related threads ever been to ESG's barn----yes

taken lessons from her---yes

watched any previous rides of hers---yes

talked with any of her current or former students or had much knowledge about her? ---yes

Is this whole thing a fluke or is there some longstanding issue? ---Not sure of what you mean by "outstanding issue" but I would say no. Some who think they know exactly which riders she referred to got all defensive and then it turned into a 'bash ESG' fest.


x

SGray
Jun. 20, 2007, 04:40 PM
who was the photographer at the show?

fiona
Jun. 20, 2007, 04:55 PM
Please! Just stop with this.
No one in is EVER going to go to Texas or invite anyone from Texas or admit to knowing someone that once went there even by accident ever ever again.
Plus you are so going to get sold Majikal Gypsy Vanners and you'll all deserve them.

SGray
Jun. 20, 2007, 05:29 PM
ummm - was hoping to see pics of Portia's new darlin' boy - he who WON Training 2 with a 72.5!

JerseyGirlEQ
Jun. 21, 2007, 12:29 PM
I'm sure by posting this I am putting myself out there but I do beleive a thread that I posted last summer was cruely ripped apart by some posters on this particular subject. I can't remember who said what anymore, but I do remember having some rather negative comments from some of the posters here. Now I wouldn't be so bothered by the comments but I find it a bit ironic that I was critisized so badly when my horse became back sore at the show after one class, I unsaddled, scratch my further classes and headed home. Now what I do not understand was why I was treated so badly for my decision to show my sound, healthy horse until he became sore at the event but it is some how okay to take your previously sore horse to a show on pain medication? I think some people are lacking some consistancy in what they are preaching.

To the other drama unfolding here, I think it is terrible for a scribe to come to a public forum and make such snide remarks about a competitiors ride. I didn't read the Shadbelly thread fully, but what I read I didn't see riders being named and their scores given but rather just a general statement. This thread ESG was singleld out and her scores ridiculed. That was going way beyond, and maybe an apology should be made for that.

I'm beginning to see the nastiness of dressage both locally (from experience) and abroad (from here) and I have to say i'm rather disappointed in the whole scene. :(

monstrpony
Jun. 21, 2007, 12:48 PM
I'm sure by posting this I am putting myself out there but I do beleive a thread that I posted last summer was cruely ripped apart by some posters on this particular subject. I can't remember who said what anymore, but I do remember having some rather negative comments from some of the posters here. Now I wouldn't be so bothered by the comments but I find it a bit ironic that I was critisized so badly when my horse became back sore at the show after one class, I unsaddled, scratch my further classes and headed home. Now what I do not understand was why I was treated so badly for my decision to show my sound, healthy horse until he became sore at the event but it is some how okay to take your previously sore horse to a show on pain medication? I think some people are lacking some consistancy in what they are preaching.

To the other drama unfolding here, I think it is terrible for a scribe to come to a public forum and make such snide remarks about a competitiors ride. I didn't read the Shadbelly thread fully, but what I read I didn't see riders being named and their scores given but rather just a general statement. This thread ESG was singleld out and her scores ridiculed. That was going way beyond, and maybe an apology should be made for that.

I'm beginning to see the nastiness of dressage both locally (from experience) and abroad (from here) and I have to say i'm rather disappointed in the whole scene. :(

They SAY that "dressage" is a French word meaning "training", but that, too, is a myth. In fact, dressage is the art of finding fault with all sides of any situation, at the drop of a hat. This involves the skill of being able to criticize, on a moment's notice, thus insuring that no one is ever right. Those that place themselves in a position of being so criticized are simply revealing their relatively novice status in the "sport".

So, it's not "nastiness" per se, it's just exercising and skill development within the standards and scale of the "sport".

It's also the reason that many of us have gone back to riding western, the evils of WP be damned; lesser of two evils and like that ;).

merrygoround
Jun. 21, 2007, 01:02 PM
Back to the OP #1.

If your horse is sore enough to be uneven you need a diagnosis, BEFORE you medicate, if you have any sense, or plans for the future of that horse.

It seems the poorly timed comments on the tests from the scribe, were her own opinions as a spectator (even though she was scribing), not quotes from the judge. Scores themselves are public information.

I know neither of the opponents in this interminable discussion, which I admit to scanning to see if there was any common sense in sight. Nope!!! :no:

Have a good day, all! :yes:

Ryka
Jun. 21, 2007, 01:15 PM
Scores themselves are public information.

Yes, over-all scores are public, but not individual scores for each movement of the test. ESG said that many 1's were handed out, and she mentioned intials of riders names... not hard to figure out who they are if those are the only initials of riders in the FEI classes.

JerseyGirlEQ
Jun. 21, 2007, 02:27 PM
They SAY that "dressage" is a French word meaning "training", but that, too, is a myth. In fact, dressage is the art of finding fault with all sides of any situation, at the drop of a hat. This involves the skill of being able to criticize, on a moment's notice, thus insuring that no one is ever right. Those that place themselves in a position of being so criticized are simply revealing their relatively novice status in the "sport".

So, it's not "nastiness" per se, it's just exercising and skill development within the standards and scale of the "sport".

It's also the reason that many of us have gone back to riding western, the evils of WP be damned; lesser of two evils and like that ;).

:lol: Oh I see now. See I've just been reading the wrong definition all along. Boy I feel silly! :winkgrin:

STF
Jun. 21, 2007, 02:31 PM
Yes, over-all scores are public, but not individual scores for each movement of the test. ESG said that many 1's were handed out, and she mentioned intials of riders names... not hard to figure out who they are if those are the only initials of riders in the FEI classes.


WHERE?? She only made one comment on intials and that was of a good ride that a trainer friend of mine made, that happened to be an impressive pretty ride at that!! LJ was the only one mentioned in initals that I can find on any threads and it was a postive comment! So, please point to me where???

Ghazzu
Jun. 21, 2007, 02:54 PM
And yes I know the FEI has a strong no drugs of any kind policy. I am not sure it is always in the best interest of the horse to have this policy, but I know why it exists (to prevent abuses).

If only it did.
Seems sometimes that a major effect is to push the limits on creative (read: non-testable) pharmacology.

mazu
Jun. 21, 2007, 02:55 PM
WHERE?? She only made one comment on intials and that was of a good ride that a trainer friend of mine made, that happened to be an impressive pretty ride at that!! LJ was the only one mentioned in initals that I can find on any threads and it was a postive comment! So, please point to me where???

Jumping in here, while ESG may not have slammed anyone by name/initials in the shadbelly thread, she did throw in a couple gems which go a long way towards explaining why her performance this past weekend was so noteworthy:


What happened to bringing the horses up the levels and being competent (or <gasp!> expert!) at the level one is showing?


But don't ASS-u-me that just because I'm sitting and writing down the judges' comments on other FEI riders, doesn't mean that I can't do the job myself.


And, let me see if I understand you: if a "fellow professional" performs poorly at a given level, no one's allowed to say anything? Sorry, but no. These are the people who are training others. If they aren't doing it right, what does it say about what they're teaching their students/horses? Let's face it - horse training isn't brain surgery. The basics are,......well, pretty basic.

Basic, indeed! I think the term for this is "schadenfreude." Nothing is happening here except people attempting to hold ESG to the same standard she holds others -- and actually, she fails at achieving even a much, much lower standard (as well as demonstrating rather questionable horsemanship).

slc2
Jun. 21, 2007, 03:02 PM
What irritates me the most about all this is you people don't seem to be able to separate different posts out whenn you discuss. You are all all about 'i hated another post you made, so i'm going to trash you on this post'.

Can't you guys like...get a grip?

I'm sure that all of you have NEVER said ANYTHING ANYONE EVER disagreed with or disliked.

Can't you like DROP IT? THese vendettas against people are just - they're soo damned childish. Like you all are still in grade school cliques picking on the girl who farted in science class 3 years ago.

Can't you like - grow up, any of you? OK, so you didn't like her post before - je***, move on.

Ok, so she had a sore horse at a show. And none of you would EVER have a sore horse at a show. OK, so she said something stupid - can't you like - get OVER IT?

On to the topic at hand.

The class probably did not run all day and involves a rather small group of people.

It's probably very obvious who is being referred to, even initials are not needed.

I think ESG's complaining about how a bunch of fei riders rode poorly isn't really the greatest move, and it's not classy for a scribe to say anything about a class she scribed for.

However, comments like this can be made. But they need to be more specific as to what's wrong, and more general as to who is doing them wrong. Don't refer to a specific show.

The myth so many of you want to perpetuate is that you learn something by being mean to people. Don't kid yourself. You don't learn anything by being mean to people. You are just being mean to people, and that's all you're doing.

I think it is more sporstmanlike to say, 'to me, many show horses these days seem to be ridden by people with a seat that lacks suppleness, and this may cause them to stiffen up across the topline. Do other people see this too? It really bothers me when I see this'

....and to avoid someone coming back and saying you can't comment because you got such and such a score at a lower level test, say, 'I struggle with these things myself, and feel they're important for me to work on too. I don't feel riders at a higher level should show at that level if they haven't made their seat more supple. Do you agree?'

THAT would be a discussion. We have very, very few actual discussions here.

But see, this whole discussion is based on a somewhat sad misconception.

And I get embarrassed every time I hear someone say something like this - embarrassed for them - very much so.

The idea behind ALL these critiques of FEI riders is that you work on your seat at training level, and you ATTAIN, and you never work on it again. You just sort of work on it for a little while, ,and poof, it's perfect, and sufficient for all levels and horses to follow.

What a load of nonsense.

it doesn't work that way.

You remake yourself, you learn to ride, all over again, at every level. That seat you had at training level - sure, you can now ride training level. But you move up to second level - now your horse has more impulsion, more motion, more power and more activity. You have to learn to sit BETTER. It becomes more of a challenge to coordinate your aids and time them and KEEP all that power going in the right direction. All of a sudden, you have to improve your seat MORE.

And you go to third level,, and holy ****, all of a sudden, now your seat isn't adequate for THAT, and you have to reinvent yourself AGAIN.

And at fourth level.

And at PSG.

And at I1

And at I2

And at GP.

And at GPS.

and now you aren't ON the 20 yr old schoolmaster. Now someone gives you a youngster that is TEN TIMES that horse, and now you START ALL OVER AGAIN, and the seat you had for the 20 yr old schoolmaster is no good any more and what you thought was foreward wasn't any more forward than a chicken has teeth, and you REINVENT YOURSELF AGAIN.....

and it just goes on and on and on and you just keep climbing up the ladder, inching your way up.

And if people didn't go to shows until they were riding the best horse in the world at grand prix, there would be no horse shows, and people would have no way to measure their progress.

that's where i differ with all of you who think a show is a place where YOU go to be entertained, and to see riding that pleases you and your unrealistic standards.

a horse show is where people learn the most, struggle the most and embarrass themselves the most. they don't go there to entertain YOU or to try to measure up to YOUR standards.

they go to develop as riders.

so please. try to develop a heart.

i used to love to go to a show with a friend of mine who would sit there and urge every competitor on, and clap when each person finished and yell, yeah, good job, and mean it and look over at me and say, 'isn't that great', and mean it, she was actually kicking, clucking and making half halts, and having a great old time helping people on. and she was NOT ignorant. she probably knew more about dressage than all of us put together, and she LOVED seeing people try and LOVED seeing them try their best. why can't you people go to a show and enjoy it, and cheer people on? why? why can't you?.

PEOPLE DO THE BEST THEY CAN. THEY ARE OUT THERE TRYING TO LEARN. LET THEM LEARN.

eponacelt
Jun. 21, 2007, 03:16 PM
SLC - While I'll admit to not having read all the way thorugh this train wreck, I want to applaud your post. Thank you. Thank you thank you thank you.

Can we frame that post and make it the first thing people see when they come on the dressage forum?:D

Pony Fixer
Jun. 21, 2007, 03:25 PM
here I am, agreeing with slc, and not even using capitals in homage.

That was the first novella in some time that I actually fully read, rather than skimmed, and agree with as well.

I think this is what many of us have been trying to say.

Auventera Two
Jun. 21, 2007, 04:18 PM
I think all the nonsense about ESG being a bad rider and bad trainer is nothing but nasty personal attacks. Of course she had a bad ride - her darned horse was in pain! What do you expect?!? I wouldn't expect scores in the 70s when the horse is so sore you can't even brush his mane without flinching.

I don't think it's at all fair to issue any judgement on her riding or training skills based on a bad ride on a sore horse.

The conclusion I think you "can" draw is that she displayed poor judgement in the decision to medicate and show a lame horse. Obviously this is WHY you don't show a lame horse - because nobody wins. Nobody looks good. Not you - not the horse - not your stable name. I have a laminitic horse that is managed with diet and exercise, but ocassionally she gets a little too much of something and gets sore on the fronts. It would be silly for me to attempt taking her on a distance ride with sore feet. Who would benefit? I would look like a dork that doesn't know my horse is lame, and the horse would look terrible too. Nobody wins. There's absolutely no advantage. So I think it was probably just a poor decision on ESG's part (and possibly the horse owner's part) to show a lame horse. But whatever - it's done. Doesn't matter now. All that matters is that the horse comes sound again and training continues either with ESG or with another trainer.

I would be willing to give ESG the benefit of doubt that on a sound horse, she probably can do a very nice job. If not, she wouldn't be able to keep a stable open doing this for a living. But I think the real problem was in the decision to medicate and show a lame horse. That's a decision that I personally would not be ok with if the horse belonged to me. The horse would be coming home immediately if a trainer drugged and showed my lame horse. But ultimately it's this horse owner's decision. The owner knows all the facts, and can weigh all the pros and cons acccordingly.

And I do agree with slc on the level of nastiness here. It's terrible. When I go to shows (whether it be horse, car, fish, or rabbit), I always clap for the other competitors, offer congratulations, ask about their car, fish, horse, rabbit, etc., make a compliment, etc. This is supposed to be your HOBBY for the love of Jesus!!! HOBBY!!! HOBB-Y. HOBBY.

People make fun of me all the time on these forums because I'm not a competitor. I don't have a zillion trophies and world champions to my name. Because you know why? Horses are supposed to be FUN. I used to fight and kick and scream on these forums over every little thing, but I finally figured out that it just doesn't matter. Who cares? Why fight with people you don't know living thousands of miles away from you that don't have any bearing on your personal life whatsoever?

I think this thread has been educational for me though because it just drives home the point that showing a horse no matter what to get the ribbons is just not worth it. The health of your reputation and your animal is far greater in importance.

GreekDressageQueen
Jun. 21, 2007, 04:32 PM
Just an interesting note to add...my friend took her seasoned 4th level horse to New Mexico for a dressage show. The horse came off the trailer very sore in his left hind leg. I believe they scratched the horse from the competition but the trainer rode him around the grounds. We all thought he might have pulled something during the trip - the horse is 17 and it was a 7 hour drive the day before. When they got home the owner had the vet check him out thoroughly. I thought he might need Adequan to ease any arthritic pains or some time off. Turns out the horse has EPM and needs thousands of dollars in medication and at least 3 months off. :no:

I would never give my horse bute before or during the show because I feel it lacks sportsmanship (although I know plenty of people who do it and wish they would get busted) but I will give my horse bute if he is sore on any other occasion. If my horse developed a sore back or a sore anything, I would give him a few grams of bute and give him several days off. If he was more than "just sore" or "off" I would go straight to the vet.

However, I find that most horses would be happier and do their job better if people gave them more time off. I try to ride all my guys 3 days on/1 day off and they will often have a long stretch of vacation anywhere from 2-5 days a month. My youngest developed some soreness in his leg so I turned him out on my friend's big ranch for a month. I brought him back to the training barn today and he hasn't felt better or been happier - no bute or fancy drugs necessary! :)

GreekDressageQueen
Jun. 21, 2007, 04:36 PM
Oops...one more thing. I happen to know a VERY accomplished dressage trainer in California who gives her horses HORMONES! Apparently, she learned this in Europe somewhere and according to her "all the big trainers do it." I have no idea why, how, or what - I think it might be estrogen? - but it's supposed to make them stronger and more able to work in collection. :eek:

Has anyone heard of this before?

Eq3nStar
Jun. 21, 2007, 04:44 PM
Oops...one more thing. I happen to know a VERY accomplished dressage trainer in California who gives her horses HORMONES! Apparently, she learned this in Europe somewhere and according to her "all the big trainers do it." I have no idea why, how, or what - I think it might be estrogen? - but it's supposed to make them stronger and more able to work in collection. :eek:

Has anyone heard of this before?

Why don't you start a new thread so we can let this one DIE :sleepy:

merrygoround
Jun. 21, 2007, 05:07 PM
Yes, over-all scores are public, but not individual scores for each movement of the test. ESG said that many 1's were handed out, and she mentioned intials of riders names... not hard to figure out who they are if those are the only initials of riders in the FEI classes.

Back to a problem of lack of that uncommon thing, common sesnse, and a lack of ethics.

dutchmike
Jun. 21, 2007, 05:17 PM
if you going to dope up your horse atleast use the good stuff. It might break your horse completely and forever but hell who cares atleast you can show that weekend. A little shot of toma... and a 3 legged horse will move like he has 4 legs ;)

slc2
Jun. 21, 2007, 05:23 PM
and the whole thing would be avoided if EVERYONE, NOT JUST ESG, talked more about supporting fellow riders than trashing them - that goes for the people trashing ESG, too - Ryka!

ps, re hormones, they aren't estrogen. they are synthetic compounds that influence the animal much as testosterone would, and cause muscles to develop. they can have their place in some medical uses, but are over-used and can have side effects.

it is not extremely rare, but not EVERYONE does it - that's incorrect.

and by the way, people, being a competitor does NOT mean being dishonest or ruining a horse. there is nothing about going to a horse show, no matter what level, that makes all people misuse their horses.

it is quite possible to compete, and compete alot, and not ever do anything bad to a horse.

in fact, there are a number of people i really respect who do all of the following and compete and compete at a high level:

1. retire horses who are showing signs of having physical problems instead of pushing them along
2. use medications only with a vet's approval and only to treat injuries, not to enhance or prolong the horse's work
3. strategically plan the horse's showings to give him a MINIMUM number of miles over his whole career
4. make specific goals, and meet them, rather than showing and showing and showing
5. choose appropriate animals for the job in mind, instead of flogging an unsuited horse beyond his capacity
6. diligently get horses fit for their work, and keep them that way
7. never drill or over work horses
8. make every effort, in every bit of schooling they do, to avoid even 1-2 extra steps, having to repeat things, even going around the ring one time to 'think about it', and make their schooling incredibly economical, efficient and compact
9. are incredibly hard on themselves, and put a lot of pressure on themselves to make sure they get the best of help so to minimize the amount of mistakes they make, so the horses are less stressed and their schooling takes less effort
10. make every effort to be sure their stabling, turnout, bedding, trailer shoeing and everything else helps the horse.

back yard trail riders do NOT have a monopoly on taking good care of horses or caring about them!

Dalfan
Jun. 21, 2007, 05:25 PM
ESG said that many 1's were handed out, and she mentioned intials of riders names... not hard to figure out who they are if those are the only initials of riders in the FEI classes.

I'm not able to find this post where ESG mentioned initials of riders. Can you provide it, please.

dutchmike
Jun. 21, 2007, 05:32 PM
and the whole thing would be avoided if EVERYONE, NOT JUST ESG, talked more about supporting fellow riders than trashing them - that goes for the people trashing ESG, too - Ryka!

ps, re hormones, they aren't estrogen. they are synthetic compounds that influence the animal much as testosterone would, and cause muscles to develop. they can have their place in some medical uses, but are over-used and can have side effects.

it is not extremely rare, but not EVERYONE does it - that's incorrect.

and by the way, people, being a competitor does NOT mean being dishonest or ruining a horse. there is nothing about going to a horse show, no matter what level, that makes all people misuse their horses.

it is quite possible to compete, and compete alot, and not ever do anything bad to a horse.

in fact, there are a number of people i really respect who do all of the following and compete and compete at a high level:

1. retire horses who are showing signs of having physical problems instead of pushing them along
2. use medications only with a vet's approval and only to treat injuries, not to enhance or prolong the horse's work
3. strategically plan the horse's showings to give him a MINIMUM number of miles over his whole career
4. make specific goals, and meet them, rather than showing and showing and showing
5. choose appropriate animals for the job in mind, instead of flogging an unsuited horse beyond his capacity
6. diligently get horses fit for their work, and keep them that way
7. never drill or over work horses
8. make every effort, in every bit of schooling they do, to avoid even 1-2 extra steps, having to repeat things, even going around the ring one time to 'think about it', and make their schooling incredibly economical, efficient and compact
9. are incredibly hard on themselves, and put a lot of pressure on themselves to make sure they get the best of help so to minimize the amount of mistakes they make, so the horses are less stressed and their schooling takes less effort
10. make every effort to be sure their stabling, turnout, bedding, trailer shoeing and everything else helps the horse.

back yard trail riders do NOT have a monopoly on taking good care of horses or caring about them!

Rubbish ,we who compete or train horses to compete really are a recreation of the devil and we really don't care about horses at all. We just want ribbons that cost a dollar even if it means breaking down a horse that is worth thousands:D