Day 18 - No Baby.. Suggestions? UPDATE: 6/20

[KrazyTBMare]

Hey guys. I bred my mare on May 26th. Shes a madien, 12 yrs old, TB. We did all the cultures, brought her into heat with the shot, checked her folicle size, made sure the moon and the stars were aligned, and bred her. Gave her the shot to make her ovulate, and checked her 48 hrs after breeding to make sure she did not retain any fluid.

Vet came out yesterday. Day 18. Nothing. :( She said the mare will come back into heat 19-21 days later IF shes not pregnant, which she does not believe her to be.

So Im thinking.. well Ive read where they didnt show and then they were. But Im wondering if I should just go ahead and bring her back into heat and plan to breed her next week instead of waiting and seeing what shes going to do.

What are your experiences with this sort of situation? This is my first time breeding personally and Im learning a lot and my vet is an excellent repro vet. But Im wanting other stories and thoughts. Thanks!

BTW, we checked her the Friday before we bred her. She had a 35-36mm folicle and "real good edema" as the vet put it.

[Hillside H Ranch]

So, a lot of the things you are doing are good. I'm assuming that when you checked her 48 hours after breeding that she had indeed ovulated?
Personally, if it were my mare I would short cycle her and try again, instead of waiting for her to come in on her own. It will save you a little time, although not a lot since it is already 18 days post breeding. And, if your repro vet is very experienced it is unlikely that she would miss an 18 day pregnancy. Sometimes even when everything goes perfect you still don't get a pregnancy-one of the joys of breeding. I'm assuming also that the semen was good quality, etc. Did she get palp'd or ultrasounded right before breeding (it looks like she was checked on Friday and bred on Saturday)? I suppose it is possible that she ovulated before you bred her; that could certainly make a difference.
Best of luck!

[KrazyTBMare]

I gave her the shot to make her come into heat the Friday before the breeding, on May 18th. We checked her on Monday, and she was indeed in heat, but only had a 17mm folicle on the left and a smaller one on the right. Vet came back out on Friday to check her, the 25th. She ultrasounded her rectally and then also palpated her and checked her cervix (since shes maiden it was tight which is why we made sure to check after breeding for retained fluids). She had a 35-36mm folicle on the left and a slightly smaller one (30-32mm) on the right. Really good edema she said. She gave her the shot to make her ovulate 36-48 hours later (I believe thats the time frame she said). She came out Saturday afternoon, and bred her, aiming for the left folicle. Gave me a shot to give her 4 hours later to make her cervix contract to expell any unused fluid to prevent infection. However, 3 hours after breeding, I checked the mare, and she was expelling the fluid on her own but I still gave her the shot. Vet came out Monday and checked her for fluid and everything looked great. Waited the days and she came yesterday and said "Nothing."

I left a message with her last night to let her know that I was thinking that we should go ahead and bring her back in and plan to breed next weekend. Havent heard back from her (today is her day off) but my friend is going to their office today to get her kittens shots and shes going to talk to the vet tech and see if the vet is there and see what they think.

Vet did keep small amont of semen and took it with her to look at the mobility and everything. She said everything looked great. So who knows.

Let me ask this then:

If mare is about to come into heat, does it do any good to go ahead and give her the shot, or should we just check her folicle size and see when we should plan to breed? She has very obvious heats so I can def tell when she comes in, etc.

[shaft0463]

im sorry layla didnt take :(

granted this is my first year breeding my mare, and shes not a maiden, but we just let her cycle on her own, then gave her the shot to ensure she ovulated when the u/s said she was about to go. though her follicle was HUGE, somewhere in the 50's if i remember correctly. i must be lucky in that she took on one cover. i know everyone has different opinions, but the breeder i used prefers to let them cycle on their own.

if shes 18 days post, shouldnt she be showing signs of coming back into heat? that is, if she has a regular 21-day cycle. i know my mare goes about 4.5 weeks, though this year she started having silent heats.

[Fairview Horse Center]

By day 18, she should be in heat, and starting to build a follicle. I would wait. The vet may have missed a pregnancy.

[Hillside H Ranch]

So before the vet bred her on Saturday, did she check her for ovulation? It isn't impossible for the mare to ovulate on follicles around that size, even though most get larger follicles. If she had already ovulated, then it is possible that she was just bred too late. Also, you are probably giving her oxytocin to help expel fluid, and we generally start that 6 hours after breeding, instead of 4 hours. Not sure if that will hurt anything or not.
Hopefully it is just one of those crappy things that happen and she will settle on the next breeding.

[charger]

Personally, I would wait and let her cycle in on her own and follow things very closely with ultrasound. We currently have one at Day 18, seasoned broodmare, who notoriously cycles back in at around day 17-19. We are at Day 18 and at this time we cannot find a pregnancy, BUT, she has no follicle development. I am confident that the pregnancy is there, we just need a bit more time to find it because if she weren't pregnant, then she would definitely have follicle development beginning.

I am also a firm believer, especially in the first few years of breeding a mare, that the cycles need to be followed closely with ultrasound so that you can get a basic idea of their cycle length and follicle size at ovulation. This gives you a better feel for your timing.............although some mares can be unpredicatable each cycle, many of them have a basic size that they tend to ovulate on and this gives you a great baseline to work around on each cycle.

[7up]

Wait. The number one reason for mares not coming back into heat is pregnancy!

[shakeytails]

Wait. The number one reason for mares not coming back into heat is pregnancy!

Yup.

I have to also say that I'm not a fan of short-cycling or any other hormonal manipulation, nor having the vet palp any more than necessary. I think it does more harm than good, a feeling also shared by my vet (his favorite thing is repro work) and my trainer (who's bred hundreds of mares). I breed live cover without constant vet checks so I have only a guesstimate of where a mare is in her cycle, but nine times out of ten my mares "catch" on the first or second heat. I realize with shipped or frozen semen the stakes are higher, but I still think less is better.

[KrazyTBMare]

Thanks guys.

I started monitoring her heat cycles back in the middle of March and kept a diligent calendar of her physical showings as well as her attitude, so she was on a very constant 21ish day cycle. She also is very apparent while in heat, so we will see. Today is Day 19 and I did not notice any signs of heat. Vet said to wait out this weekend and see if she comes back in b/c she knows shes very regular with her cycles and its very easy to tell shes in. If I dont notice anything this weekend, she will come back out next week and check again.

Since we cultured her, she did check her folicle sizes prior to breeding. She went through 2 heat cycles before we brought her back in for the actual breeding. Each time we checked (about 4-5 days into the heat) she had a 35mm folicle on the left and about a 30 on the right each time. Same sizes she had the Friday before we bred.

Mare was kind of reluctant to let the vet get really far to her overies but she did finally get the left one on the screen the other day. It didnt show anything and she didnt show a black dot, which is apparently the embryo?

I believe the shot we gave her was similar to oxytocin but it wasnt exactly that b/c I know the oxytocin is what women get to induce (or whatever it does but I know Ive heard of that before) and what she was giving her was similar to that but not called exactly that. It made her get very mild cramps to basically cause the cervix to contract and expell the unused fluids. No cramping like that shot that brings them into heat does. I felt so bad seeing her cramp and sweat. :(

Ill be watching Ms Thang like a hawk this weekend. My friend spoke to the Vet Tech today and she told her that my vet will be calling me tomorrow so we will see what she says. More than likely she will say to watch her and if she does come into heat, we can check her and see what size her folicles are and try to breed her without short cycling her on our own.

Thanks for the kind words and the information. Im learning as Im going.

Would you guys say its pretty common for a maiden to be more shy about showing shes pregnant or not? How often does it happen that they dont see anything at Day 18 but do further along?

[clint]

Thanks guys.

Would you guys say its pretty common for a maiden to be more shy about showing shes pregnant or not? How often does it happen that they dont see anything at Day 18 but do further along?

If a vet is ultrasounding for pregnancy, it doesn't really have anything to do with being shy; they either see the black blob or not.;) My maiden mares, heck, all my mares, are pretty subtle about showing any signs of pregnancy that early. Since I desperately want them to be pregnant, I spend time speculating about whether that dreamy look means they are, but I'm often wrong.:yes:

My vet has never missed a pregnancy at 18 days. I have so wanted him to be wrong, but alas, so far he is batting 100 %. I have them checked at 15 days, and he hasn't missed one of those, either.:no:

I know you feel like your mare is a total sure thing as far as predicting heat, but I have a mare I felt the same way about, and the last heat she had, the one she got in foal on, she didn't show anything until the day she ovulated. I know that because we were monitoring with ultrasound, fortunately. I can't recommend too highly monitoring the progress of the follicle and confirmation of ovulation when you are going to breed her.

[Fairview Horse Center]

It is Oxytocin that is used to contract the uterus to remove fluid post breeding - same drug that induces labor (horses too)

Your mare does NOT have to cramp from Lutalyse/Prostin. Dose information has been available for a VERY long time, and widely accepted for at LEAST 5 years. The correct dose is .2 ml (that is 2/10s of a cc) for 2 days in a row, NOT the archaic dose of 2 ml that is so painful to the mares. :( I actually usually only use a single dose of 1/4 ml, and it works the SAME as the old dose, to bring them in heat with NO cramping, NO sweating, MUCH kinder to our girls.

[shaft0463]

heres to hoping that the vet just missed the little black dot and youll find out soon that layla is pregnant :)

[ASBJumper]

One thing you can discuss with your vet is doing a lavage/uterine flush at 4-6 hours post-insemination. I did a ton of research earlier this year since my mare was bred on two good heats last year with fantastic semen, given oxytocin, checked 36 hours later, everything.. and no pregnancy. She has a 2A biopsy score and a clean culture/cytology. The only thing I haven't been asking the vet to do is a uterine lavage.

There have been studies done on groups of mares (found it on the net) and research seems to show that the mares being flushed 4-6 hours post-breeding (no earlier though!) had higher pregnancy rates than those that were not flushed.

It's one more thing you can do to try and help the process along. And if your mare got pregnant but lost the pregnancy before the 18-day check, then perhaps she might need Regumate.. worth checking into as well.

I am pulling out all the stops this year!! I WILL have my Balta 'Czar baby, dangit!! :D :p

[KrazyTBMare]

I thought Regumate was to keep them from having a heat... like birth control for us?? I totally dont know anything about that stuff b/c I LOVE my mare in heat. Shes the most relaxed, agreeable, lovable thing ever.

We are on Day 20 and NO HEAT. Normally by this time she will have some crusty fluid on her *area* and be really happy and relaxed. Shes actually kind of snarky, which is her normal self not in heat. So we will see.

Ill keep yall updated.

[dressage72]

Day 20 and no heat would DEFINITELY make me think pregnancy, but it's been a strange season hasn't it??!

Could I semi-invade this post only because it goes along with a few of the questions asked and answered here.

My mare was bred Friday June 1 at 8:30 pm 37mm "ish" follicle on the left side. We horn bred one does towards that left side and then did second dose right in the center because there were a few smaller ones on the right. Gave shot of HCG. Good edema.

Re-scanned her early Saturday afternoon and she had NOT ovulated yet! Semen wasn't available that day and we could only hope for the best. Follicle was around 35mm and seemed to be breaking down.

Scanned on Sunday June 3 and she did indeed ovulate already most likely that previous evening. So ok good bred 24 hours or less before ovulation. Edema gone.

Culture came back with small staph infection and we had her flushed on Monday June 4 gave shot of oxytocin that night, next morning and afternoon and stopped. Vet felt what she flushed out was nice and clean.

Soooo here we are at day 14 and we scanned her this morning and she couldn't see that cute little black dot! :( She didn't have edema in her uterus, thought everything looked good and had a few follicles on her left side (one was 34mm) which she said was the "after" ovulation follicles to help her hormones along if she indeed were pregnant. I "thought" I saw her winking during the exam, but...........????

So my ?'s are, could she still be pregnant? Is 14 days too early? Is that 34mm follicle really after ovulation follicle or the start of her new cycle?

This is SO darn hard! Her filly is just over a month and IF she had a foal heat it was completely silent and I missed it........or this cycle was her FIRST cycle since foaling.

Sorry to invade, I just felt it went with the going topic. I don't mean to be intrusive! ;)

Thanks in advance!

[KrazyTBMare]

Sharon,

No problem! Jump on in. Reading these answers really helps me learn as well.

UPDATE:

Day 21, no signs of heat. Shes still her snarky mare self (like she always is in her stall except while in heat!). She was certainly very opinionated when I rode yesterday, which again, she is not when she is in heat. Shes very relaxed and ho-hum while in heat so thats a good sign. No signs of fluid excretion or winking or any crusties on her *area*.

My vet is out of town Monday- Wednesday so I cant get her out to check her any sooner. Either way shes going to have to come out, to either check her to see if shes ready to breed again if shes in heat or check her to see if she sees the black dot if she doesnt show signs of heat.

ARGH! I now understand why everyone says that breeding can be VERY frusterating. This is def a time I wish they could talk! Or just take a pee test like us and see if shes pregnant. Can they test the blood like humans can and see if you are pregnant??? Anything other than ultrasound?

[shaft0463]

that makes me think of something i did when i decided to breed. i was in walmart, and in a rather stupid mood, and bought a pregnacy test, just to see if it would work. the problem was, it said it wasnt accurate until 5 days before your missed period, and the vet had already confirmed the pregnacy. so now i have a box of sealed pregnacy tests in my tack trunk and no use for them. ill mail them to you to try ;)

but i think they can do a blood test, the hormone they would be testing for is just not what a human pregnacy test would pick up.

[clint]

You can use a blood test on a mare to check for pregnancy, but not until they are 100 days or so. I don't think it is a wildly popular way to check pregnancy, as it is more expensive than a palpation, which is what is used at that point.

[KrazyTBMare]

Ah. Not as easy as running to the store and buying a pee test, eh? LOL End of Day 21 and no signs. Will keep a diligent eye.

[mistyjewell]

So, your vet is out of town, and your mare could possible be in heat? (or I should say if she's not pregnant, she would be in heat) so there's no way you could breed her on this heat cycle if she wasn't pregnant? I would have another vet out to check her, or you're going to have to wait 5 days after she ovulates (if a vet can check her in time) to short cycle her again, and then wait usually another 5 days to breed. Even if she's not showing signs, I would have someone out if that's where she's at to find out what's going on.

[teacher]

Three years ago, my vet did not like the look or shape of the black dot on the ultrasound picture, and so he was not convinced that it was a pregnancy, or at least not a viable pregnancy.


Everybody does, however, like the look and the shape of the big dark bay two year-old colt!:lol:


(The vet was finally convinced after getting a second opinion by a vet he considers an expert in repro work!)

[krfarms]

welcome to the "joy of breeding" It does not make any difference how many times you have bred a mare, or how many you have bred over the years. At any time they can pretty much do as they want!!! lol. I have had mares that took every time, then one year took 3 cycles - no luck, changed stallions, bingo, Twins almost every time she is bred...I have had her bred pre ovulation (many days) and post ovulation and she has taken, and I have hit her perfectly and no dice. This is why raising babies without owning your own stallion, and relying on a vet for palpations, ultrasounds etc, requires either deed pockets or insanity!! I fall in the extremely insane category!!

Next week. Trying to breed mare 1. held her foal for 383 days, then ovulated on day 7..thus missed her, mare 2, missed her last month, ordered semen this month and she was not quite progressing as fast as I had hoped (38 and 35) but bred her anyway. Day 14 is Wed..Keep the fingers crossed!!!

[KrazyTBMare]

Well if she comes into heat this weekend, wouldnt she be at that "point" like Thursday or Friday?

Todays Sunday, Day 22, and I went to check her, and she was peeing, so I couldnt tell if the stuff on her *area* was from her being in heat or just from her urine. Of course she was winking, but she always winks a lot after she pees. She is very sure to not get any urine on herself or her tail. She flips it up and folds its over her back and then stands there for a few mins after she finishes to drip dry. LOL Then she hobbles past the pile before she walks off.

ANYWAYS.

Day 22, no signs. Do you think I should call another vet to check her out? What if she is in heat and is ready to breed? I dont really know any of the other vets in the area and wouldnt it be kinda weird and.. I dont know the word, but to have another vet do the work? Ive been using this vet personally for 5+ years on my mare and have known her for 10+ years b/c she has always been the vet at my boarding barn and various trainers, etc. Shes the best known and personally in my opinion best vet in our area. So Im not sure what to do?

She told me she prefers to short cycle them b/c then you have it down to a pretty good science when they are in heat, when they are ovulating (or you give them the shot to make them ovulate) so you run a better chance of getting the mare in foal. Ive been in contact with the stallion owner. He is available until June 21st which is Thursday.. ARGH. My vet said she will be checking her messages while shes out of town so I can call her tomorrow and leave her one asking her to call me and see if she thinks I should get another person out to ultrasound her and see whats going on so I will know if I need to order semen on Wednesday to breed Thursday when shes home.

Whew. Yes. Joys of breeding. Right! ;)

[ljshorses]

Well if she comes into heat this weekend, wouldnt she be at that "point" like Thursday or Friday?

Todays Sunday, Day 22, and I went to check her, and she was peeing, so I couldnt tell if the stuff on her *area* was from her being in heat or just from her urine. Of course she was winking, but she always winks a lot after she pees. She is very sure to not get any urine on herself or her tail. She flips it up and folds its over her back and then stands there for a few mins after she finishes to drip dry. LOL Then she hobbles past the pile before she walks off.

ANYWAYS.

Day 22, no signs. Do you think I should call another vet to check her out? What if she is in heat and is ready to breed? I dont really know any of the other vets in the area and wouldnt it be kinda weird and.. I dont know the word, but to have another vet do the work? Ive been using this vet personally for 5+ years on my mare and have known her for 10+ years b/c she has always been the vet at my boarding barn and various trainers, etc. Shes the best known and personally in my opinion best vet in our area. So Im not sure what to do?

She told me she prefers to short cycle them b/c then you have it down to a pretty good science when they are in heat, when they are ovulating (or you give them the shot to make them ovulate) so you run a better chance of getting the mare in foal. Ive been in contact with the stallion owner. He is available until June 21st which is Thursday.. ARGH. My vet said she will be checking her messages while shes out of town so I can call her tomorrow and leave her one asking her to call me and see if she thinks I should get another person out to ultrasound her and see whats going on so I will know if I need to order semen on Wednesday to breed Thursday when shes home.

Whew. Yes. Joys of breeding. Right! ;)

Well if yesterday was day 22 and mares have a 21 day cycle then she ovulated Saturday. Looks like you would have to short cycle her this Friday and then check her on Monday. She (depending on how she reacts to the prostaglandin) could be ready to breed as early as Monday or as late as the following Thursday. Some mares typically have an immature follicle "hanging" around (got a few like this) and when they gey prostaglandin they are ready to breed very quickly. So we ultrasound 3 days following prostaglandin so as not to lose a cycle.

[Treasmare2]

I would wait a little bit. It is my understanding that short cycling can get rid of a pregnancy. I am currently in the same situation....didn't see a baby and this is day 20. So I am looking for signs of heat since the mare is very very clear about those things and not short cycling. I am also trying to decide if that was my one crack/kick at the can or if I want to give it another spin. Ahhh decisions. Now if th emare just doesn't come into heat then all will seem right in my world.:)

[L&L]

Mares don't always have text book 21 day cycles so she may just have a delayed heat by a day or two, but I would definitely be scanning her again prior to PG-ing her as she could be pregnant.

Pregancies are easily missed no matter what vets tell you and have had several mares tell me they were pregant by their reaction when teased, despite the vet insisting that "he never misses a pregnancy" Undetected preganacies are quite common and a good equine reproduction specialist will openly admit that they are easily missed. Scan again and wait is my advice.

Day 18 from ovulation/insemination it could also be that the mare has already ovulated if she had a shorter cycle than 21 days so should also be checking for CL presence of a recent ovulation.

[charger]

We let two vets check our mare that went to Day 18 with NO sign of pregnancy, BUT no follicle development. Both vets found nothing and I was sure she was pregnant, we just hadn't found it. Sure enough, Day 22 finally showed what we wanted and her measurements were on the money. Why it didn't show until then we don't know, but we do get to know our mares and this mare was not acting normal if she were to be coming back into season..........remember,these horses don't read the same book that we do.

[KrazyTBMare]

Thanks for your experiences guys. It really helps.

I spoke to the vet that is on call for my vet. She said she would wait and see what happens. If I dont see signs of heat, it could be one of two things:

1 - Shes pregnant! Yay

2 - Shes not pregnant and she hasnt come into heat yet (she used a term for this but I cant remember it) and we will have to short cycle to rebreed.

My vet didnt say she "never" misses the black dot, she just said she usually doesnt. But she didnt say "Shes NOT pregnant" she just said she doesnt see anything and to wait and see what the mare does over the next few days and she will check her Thursday.

I was more worried that if she is going to come into heat, she would more than likely be ready to breed on like Thursday, and the stallion is going to a show and is leaving Thursday so I would have to order semen Wednesday, but I dont want to do that without knowing its the right time. Blah!

So I just got home from work. Im about to head out there and check on her again. I left a message with my regular vet and she should hopefully call me back by tomorrow. She told me she would check her messages and wants to keep communicating so we can all be on the same page.

Also, on call vet said that if you have a mare who is predictable and shows very obvious signs when estrogen is in her system (IE: heat) that its not very likely that they will just suddenly change how they display while in heat. So that its more than likely that she isnt going to come in, and either be pregnant or have that instance when she doesnt come in but isnt in foal either.

So basically this is really confusing and stressful! ;) Tell me that cute little fuzzy baby will be all worth it in the end! ;)

Ill update as I learn more. Thanks again everyone!! :D

[KrazyTBMare]

BTW, Im new to this so dont laugh...

WHERE does the folicle form? My vet showed me her left ovary when she checked her on Day 18 and checked whatever other places she checks, and while she didnt see the black dot, she did not see any edema or folicles. So I wasnt sure exactly what she was looking at or looking for. LOL

[ljshorses]

BTW, Im new to this so dont laugh...

WHERE does the folicle form? My vet showed me her left ovary when she checked her on Day 18 and checked whatever other places she checks, and while she didnt see the black dot, she did not see any edema or folicles. So I wasnt sure exactly what she was looking at or looking for. LOL


Yes it's true not all mares follow a 21 day cycle, but if anything she would be shortening up which many mares do when we get deep into the summer. If my repro vet checked one of my mares at Day 18 and saw no follicle and no edema I would also be asking what's the cervix like? If the cervix is also tight then there is a good chance she is infoal and it was missed (we had this happen this year with a fantastic repro vet we have used for many years). Missed pregnancies ocurr all the time. I had a mare checked today at Day 14. She couldn't find a pregnancy, but the cervix was tight and there was no edema and there was a 52mm follicle. The follicle in this case means nothing, mares can have follicles present throughout their pregnancy (we have a few here that do just that every year and even tease all year, very frustrating). So in my case the follicle is not a breedable follicle, the mare is not yet in heat and since the cervix is tight with no edema as yet present she will recheck on Wed at Day 16.

Not sure what you are referring to though about the thing that makes them not come back into heat??? The only thing I can think of where that happens is if they were pregnant and slipped the pregnancy following endrometrial cups being formed. If that were the case, short cycling her may not work anyway and unfortunately the season may be lost altogether (have had that happen).

[mistyjewell]

My biggets conern with this, if the mare is not pregnant, you're going to have no idea when she ovulated, since you're vet can't come out and check her during the time she would be ovulating. I agree that giving PG can terminate a pregnancy, so I would have the vet out to check her again reguardless. You need to know, and by day 28 you should have another ultrasound done anyway to check for the heartbeat. Most stallion owners require that in their contracts.

If it had been me, I would have had the mare checked 2 days later (day 20 in your case) to check for pregnancy and follicle development, and would have had the vet out every 2-3 days to check if your determined to get her in foal. Knowing when the mare ovulates and how she progresses the follicle is important for managing your breeding, and gets you to learn how to manage breeding her more in the future. I know that's expensive, but since you live in Fla, I'd want to make sure she's either pregnant or not, and try and breed her earlier rather then later, since it's hot down there. While I hope she is pregannt, and she missed the embryo, if she didn't, by her not being out and checking, you probably missed breeding on this heat cycle.

[KrazyTBMare]

Thanks guys. I thought I saw some crusties on her but I couldnt tell if it was from sweat or her coming into heat. I went to school tonight and my friend came out to ride her gelding. She said she didnt see any excretions or crusties and she was acting snarky to my friend.

ljs, When she examined her at Day 18, she went in rectally. I dont think you can see the cervix rectally right? Im not sure about the missed cycle thing. As I said, I really dont care for that particular vet. She just comes off odd to me and I dont get a good vibe from her so Lord knows what she was talking about.

misty, The contract said 30-60-90 days to check for pregnancy. I would have had her out to check her a few days later but as I said, shes out of town. Its still not incredibly late in the season, so if I do have to rebreed, she feels that we can bring her back in by shortcycling her. I havent heard from her (vet) yet but I guess really Id rather WAIT and have her check her and see if shes in foal and if not, short cycle and try again. I dont want to mess with her if she is magically in foal. ;) Prior to breeding her, the vet came out Mon, Wed, and Fri to see how she was progressing and ovulating so we knew when to breed, etc. She also gave her that shot that makes them ovulate in like 36-48 hrs, I believe was the timeframe. She gave that to her on Friday before the Sat breeding.

I just got home from school so I still have to go out and clean stalls so Ill check on her and see if I notice any signs of heat. And of course Ill update as I find out more stuff! :)

[Valentina_32926]

Sometimes the mare tries to "hide" the baby (black dot) from the vet - my mare did that the second pregnancy. Luckily the vet saw it for a split second before it disappeared so we knew she was pregnant.

[SueL]

Sometimes the mare tries to "hide" the baby (black dot) from the vet - my mare did that the second pregnancy. Luckily the vet saw it for a split second before it disappeared so we knew she was pregnant.

A mare can't try to "hide" a pregnancy. What happens is when you ultrasound
early in a pregnancy the embryo has not yet implanted and moves around in
the uterine fluids. It is possible to thus "miss" an early pregnancy by even the
best repro vet.

Proper protocol in the OP's mare's case would have been to come back around days 20-24 to see if she could find a pregnancy.

Cervical tone is assessed by rectal palpation. It is a good indication of an ongoing early pregnancy.

This is going to come across as a nit but so be it. To the OP - if you want to breed for gawd's sake use the correct terms. It is not her "area" it is her external genitalia or vulva. They are not "crusties" but are discharges (and they can indicate pathology so beware) It is not "the shot" but HCG or human chondroidogrophic hormone. Believe me, if you can speak to your vet using real words rather than little kid terminology you will get a chance to learn a whole lot more about the whole process.

Sue

[patch work farm]

You're in a tough position because you could abort a possible fetus if you give her a shot now, I know plenty of people that have done so-even with their vet's reccommendation. [I would shoot myself if I ever did that since we work so hard to get them pregnant]

I recently had my vet check a 13 day pregnancy (my feeling was, he had to be here anyway and was there a huge difference in 12 hours??). He found the pregancy immediately and said it was large for 13 days (already at 16 cm). I imagine there may be times when they are difficult to find, luckily that is one area that has not been an issue for my mares.

Just for the record, they typically do the ultrasound through the rectum since you asked about that.

[KrazyTBMare]

Thanks for the info guys.

Sue, I do speak to my vet using adult language. Excuse me for not being able to remember all the acronymns that she said to me, and not being sure if you call a mares opening a vulva or vagina, so I simply called it her area, which it is. There are PLUNTY of things that people use other terms to describe things. "The Shot" in human terms is the depo shot for birth control. There are far many words for a womans and mans private parts, instead of penis and vagina. And *gasp* I also call my TB a "pony". Im sure you didnt walk into the equine world, breeding or not, and know every single clinical term. I appreciate you taking the time to inform me of the technical terms, but maybe next time you could use a little different tone and combination of words to make it sound less snarky? ;)

I checked her again today. She didnt have any discharge and she was acting snarky like she usually does. My vets vet tech called me today and gave me a # to call of another vet in the area that my vet trusts and recommends to check her via ultra sound. Im waiting on a call back. Hopefully she can get out tomorrow (asking for a lot, I know) and see if shes indeed pregnant or in heat, and if she is in heat, see what her follicles look like and let me know if I need to order semen or not. So stay tuned for further follow ups. :)

[SueL]

Thanks for the info guys.

Sue, I do speak to my vet using adult language. Excuse me for not being able to remember all the acronymns that she said to me, and not being sure if you call a mares opening a vulva or vagina, so I simply called it her area, which it is. There are PLUNTY of things that people use other terms to describe things. "The Shot" in human terms is the depo shot for birth control. There are far many words for a womans and mans private parts, instead of penis and vagina. And *gasp* I also call my TB a "pony". Im sure you didnt walk into the equine world, breeding or not, and know every single clinical term. I appreciate you taking the time to inform me of the technical terms, but maybe next time you could use a little different tone and combination of words to make it sound less snarky? ;)

I checked her again today. She didnt have any discharge and she was acting snarky like she usually does. My vets vet tech called me today and gave me a # to call of another vet in the area that my vet trusts and recommends to check her via ultra sound. Im waiting on a call back. Hopefully she can get out tomorrow (asking for a lot, I know) and see if shes indeed pregnant or in heat, and if she is in heat, see what her follicles look like and let me know if I need to order semen or not. So stay tuned for further follow ups. :)

Ok, get you now. We all forget terminology.

The shot, as we always used it, was HCG, not depo-provera.

I hope she is in foal and the embryo was floating just out of reach
of the ultrasound. That can happen in early detection of pregnancies.

If not, talk to your vet about following up breeding with uterine
lavage. That really helps expel fluid post-AI and sets up a
suitable environment for embryonic implantation which is
a primary problem with many mares even if they have
good biopsies/conformation. If she retains fluid or edema
it just won't implant in a horn and bingo, no pregnancy.

Good luck! Hope she is cheerfully (or snarkily :)) in foal
right now.

Sue

[arnika]

By the by SueL, hCG is Human chorionic gonadotropin.:winkgrin:

[mistyjewell]

There's also a good chance the shot you gave was protaglandin (pg) which does the same thing as HCG, but isn't the same, lol.

Just keep in mind, that if she's not pregnant, chances are VERY good she's not in heat anymore. You're way past the normal 21 day cycle (21 days from ovulation to ovulation) so chances are good she's in the middle of her cycle anyway. At this time of year mare's tend to go shorter, not longer in their cycle.

[KrazyTBMare]

Thanks again guys.

Sue, Im hoping that as well. I have it scheduled for another vet to come out tomorrow. Ive called the stallion owner to let her know in case the vet tells me that its time to order semen, shes ready. About the uterine lavage... I dont know what she called it, but she gave me a shot to give her approx 4 hours after insemination to make her expell any unused semen/fluid to prevent any fluid retention and/or infection. Is that what a uterine lavage is? I checked on my mare about 2-2.5 hours after insemination, and she was winking and discharging a good bit of clear, gooey liquid, in globs before I even gave her the shot. Vet came out 48 hours after insemination to make sure she didnt retain any fluid and all was going well.

misty, Ive called my vet, on call vet, another vet who used to work with my vet, and now this last vet who is coming for the ultra sound Wednesday. All agreed that if this mare is very apparent while in heat that its unlikely that she would drastically change her habits (IE act differently while in heat). And she certainly has NOT been in heat thus far. So thats why Im a little confused.

At least tomorrow I SHOULD have my questions answered. We'll see.


As always.. Ill keep it updated! :)

[shaft0463]

the shot you gave her was oxytocin. its the same hormone that causes contractions during birth (in horses and people). a lavage is when they come out the day following breeding and flush the uterus with saline solution to remove any residue from the semen. my vet also left some antibiotic in the uterus to ensure that my mare hadnt picked anythign up during breeding, as she had a "dirty" culture that was cleaned up right before she was bred. we wanted to play it safe, just in case.

a lavage leaves the uterus clean and free of fluid so that an embryo has a better chance of implanting.

[KrazyTBMare]

Ah I see. Similar to a douche I guess. My mare had a clean culture prior to breeding and the reason she gave her the oxytocin she said was b/c her cervix was tighter than shed like (maiden and all) and she wanted to make sure there wasnt any fluid retained to cause infection, etc.

I hope to have a lot more answers by tomorrow and if not, DEF by Thursday when my vet gets back in town and we can really have a one-on-one and see whats going on. :)

[KrazyTBMare]

Day 25:

So the other vet came out this morning. She palpated her and said that her uterus was soft and pliable. Her cervix was toned.

Heres her notes for my vet:

Right side had like a 23mm and multi small follicles. Left side had a 32-33mm and MSF (multi). No embryonic resicle (reading this off a paper she wrote.. so bare with me!) Estrus edema - minimal not great - just starting? Uterus doesnt have wagon wheel look yet but uterus has no tone and some edema.

She said she had no CL (GL?) which is when they ovulate it looks like a blood clot sort of. She didnt have that so she said she hadnt ovulated yet. Said the follicles can grow 2-3mm a day so feels that by Thurs or Fri we should be good to rebreed. She also printed out the ultrasound photos of her uterus and follicles for my vet which was nice. Shes a really nice vet so its good to have a good vet to call upon in case mine isnt available.

I have left a message with my vet. I spoke to her this morning and told her this other vet was coming. So shes going to call me this afternoon.

I went ahead and called the stallion owner and gave her a heads up. In her email and on the phone she made it sound like I HAD to order today and HAD to collect today. But she said she could get him collected tomorrow and have it to me by Friday for a Friday breeding. Going off what the vet said today and my own vets words on her preference on breeding conditions, I felt that would be the move my vet would want to make, so right now we are set up for Friday breeding. She said she can do a "counter to counter" deal where she sends it via the airport and I pick it up at the airport Thursday if I need to do that and just call her and let her know what my vet says.

So poo. Shes not pregnant. But Im glad that I went ahead and got someone out to check her and HOPEFULLY she will take on this turn. Im going to speak to my vet about the uterine lavage and any other things we can do to try to make this work.

So we shall see!

[Fairview Horse Center]

With her delay in coming back in, I would bet she was pregnant, and you were dealing with an EED. Will cross my fingers for her to hold the next time.

[KrazyTBMare]

EED? Whats that? Is your reply in response to my latest update or to the first post? sorry! :)

[mistyjewell]

EED I'm guessing is early embryonic death. Suggesting your mare did get pregnant, but something was wrong either with her not being able to maintain the pregnancy, or there was something genetically wrong with the embryo. And before you freak out, this isn't uncommon, and happens in people and horses more common then you would think.

She suggested that since the mare delayed her heat, chances are she was pregnant, and the hormones secreted as such, but she lost the pregnacncy early so is only now coming back into heat.

[KrazyTBMare]

Oh ok. I understand. So is it a good sign at least to think she DID get pregnant but it terminated? Or what? My vet is coming out Thursday morning to check her herself and allow us to talk. Sperm as of now is still coming Friday. We'll see how it goes.

BTW, when I got home from work today and from school this evening, while she wasnt winking (only does that in some heats) she was very relaxed and happy and wanting attention, which she only does in heat. So Im hoping the stars are aligning and this will work this time around!

Wish us luck!!!

[alliekat]

Good Luck with your mare. I hope all goes well and will keep my fingers crossed.
I am ultrasoundind my mare on the 28th to see if she took. Good Luck!!!

[KrazyTBMare]

So MY vet came this afternoon. I was at work but she called me to let me know what was going on.

Now her left follicle is a 36mm, which is bigger than it was last time, but she said she really didnt have enoguh edema and her cervix was still tight and it hadnt dropped to the bottom of her vagina, so basically shes not ready yet. She hasnt ovulated, she just feels that shes taking her sweet time to come back into a full heat b/c normally her cervix does relax and she has really good edema.

I called the SO to see if they had already collected, which they had and it was already on its way. So I called my vet back and we decided to go ahead and have her come back early Saturday morning and check her and if she was ready, go ahead and use the semen. I just have to keep it in my fridge until then. Vet and SO said it will be ok until then.

So lets HOPE that she forms some edema and her cervix relaxes and shes ready to go Saturday. She said that shed give her the shot of HCG on Saturday if shes ready.

More updates to follow in a few days.

[shaft0463]

good luck with her getting in foal! did you talk to your vet about a lavage the day after insemination?

with all the threads on losing babies and mares not getting in foal, im now paranoid that lucy is going to lose hers, even though there was a strong heartbeat at 31 days. so be prepared for a nerve-racking 11 months!

[desilu]

Good luck! Got our fingers crossed the timing is right and the swimmers are strong.

[KrazyTBMare]

I was at work when she called me so I didnt have a lot of time to talk details. Im going to ask her about it Saturday morning when she comes out. Im just hoping shes ready to be bred Saturday!

Thakns for the well wishes. You know Ill keep it updated! ;)

[daisyduke]

what a roller coaster ride. I went through this last year trying to get my mare pregnant. We started in May and finished with no pregnancy by August. It was time consuming, heart breaking and very expensive. The short cycling, trips to the vet, calls to the stallion owner, so many tests and procedures it made my head spin. I swore I would not do it again. Fast forward to this year, I had her bred, she took first time and we just had our 45 day pregnancy check. Yay. We didn't do anything different this year but apparently it was her time and she's cooperating. Good Luck!

[KrazyTBMare]

Thanks!

The semen came this morning. I was heading off to work so I put the box in the fridge, via SO instructions, and asked my step dad to take the syringe out 2.5 hours later and put them back in the fridge without the box..

Im going to ask my vet about something I read on here... using one tube to aim at the left follicle, and the other to just put in the middle. Can that help increase your chances?

Everyone cross your fingers shes ready to go tomorrow.

I checked her last night and it was the first time this heat she actually had a moist vulva with some slight discharge. So Im hoping this is it.

[Fairview Horse Center]

The semen came this morning. I was heading off to work so I put the box in the fridge, via SO instructions, and asked my step dad to take the syringe out 2.5 hours later and put them back in the fridge without the box. Turns out this time they sent 2 syringes.

OK, I am confussed. Why take them out of the box? The box insulates them from changes in temps. Your refrigerator may be too cold for the semen. Everyone keeps them at different levels of coldness. If it is, you can kill all of the sperm. Since the SO has not tested her stallion's semen in your refrigerator at the current temp, there is no way of knowing if that is ok, or not.

Im going to ask my vet about something I read on here... using one tube to aim at the left follicle, and the other to just put in the middle. Can that help increase your chances?

Deep horn insemination on the side of the ovulation can increase chances of a pregnancy but it takes a skilled vet.

Now her left follicle is a 36mm, which is bigger than it was last time, but she said she really didnt have enoguh edema and her cervix was still tight and it hadnt dropped to the bottom of her vagina, so basically shes not ready yet. She hasnt ovulated, she just feels that shes taking her sweet time to come back into a full heat b/c normally her cervix does relax and she has really good edema.

So lets HOPE that she forms some edema and her cervix relaxes and shes ready to go Saturday. She said that shed give her the shot of hCG on Saturday if shes ready..

Edema actually peaks 36 hours prior to ovulation, and goes away when they are close to ovulating. Also, the cervix is not the best indicator of readiness. With a 36mm follicle, it should respond to the HcG. Did her follicle feel like it was softening? That would be a better indicator of if she was close to ovulation.

[mistyjewell]

Doing a deep horn insemination with fresh cooled is almst pointless unless the semen is of really poor quality. This is usually only done with frozen semen. It is much tougher to do, and can irritate the uterus, with fresh cooled you have a much larger volume then with frozen, so again, no point.

It also sounds like you want to use both at once, again, not a good idea. It would introduce too much fluid into the mare, and could realy irritate her. There's no point.

What you do when you have 2 doses of fresh cooled (actually more nromal with fresh cooled) is that you breed with one dose, and then check to see if the mare has ovulated the next day. If she hasn't ovulated you can use the second dose. Usually it's better to give a day off inbetween (again, b/c breeding irritates the mare, and can cause an inflammatory reaction) but this year I bred 2 days in a row, but then used shots of oxytocin starting 4 hours post insemination (with the second dose) an hour apart for 3 doses, and then the next day she had ovulated but retained some fluid (not hugly uncommon breeding 2 days in a row) so we had to lavage her and give some antibiotics, and 17 days later she was pregnant.

[YankeeLawyer]

With two doses you can do the timed insemination protocol -- the mare is inseminated with 1 dose pre-ovulation, and 1 dose post-ovulation, with a certain number of hours b/w each insemination and the ovulation. The idea is that the mare hopefully will ovulate in that window of time.

[KrazyTBMare]

Ah ok. Now I understand about the 2 doses. I know I had read about using both doses, but I wasnt sure of the time frame, thats why I was going to ask my vet.

Im not the one who had the idea to put the semen in the fridge out of the box. I have no experience with this and just follow the suggestion of the SO. We dont keep our fridge extermely cold. I unfortunately dont have a thermometer to tell you the exact temp. Should I put them back in the box? I was just doing what she said.

Ill ask my vet about the seperated insemination.

She said her follicle was still pretty toned and she didnt feel she was ready Friday. She also said at this time of year their follicles can get into the 40mm range and even though her follicle was big enough for the hcg that she didnt feel it was the right time to breed yet.

Guess we will find out in about 12 hours?

[clint]

I'm kind of surprised that your vet didn't give HCG tonight. If you still have a firm 40mm, and aging semen, you may well have the spermies die of old age before your mare is ready to breed doing it the old fashioned way. Example: my mare had about a 40 mm follicle early on a Thursday morning. I ordered semen, and received it on Friday. Thursday night I gave HCG. Friday afternoon the follicle was about a 45, still firm, and we bred. We bred again on Saturday on a softening 48. Clearly the HCG didn't perform quite according to the books, but we are hopeful we will get a pregnancy out of it, as it was superb semen. I doubt we would be hopeful without having given it to her.

It will be helpful for you next year if you have notes from this year, recording such things as the approximate size of follicle your mare will ovulate.

I must say, I was frankly astonished that anyone told you to remove the sperm syringes and store them unprotected. I take the entire box/equitainer and put it in the fridge when it is warm outside, but I don't ever open, touch, or otherwise disturb the contents. According to my therio, the less handling, the better. If your vet brings a microscope, it will be useful information for you and the SO to have her warm the semen and look at it. Seeing living swimmers is a great feeling. :)

[KrazyTBMare]

I went ahead and put them back in the box and back in the fridge. The cooling pack in the box is colder than the fridge so I dont think the fridge was too cold to kill them.

[KrazyTBMare]

As the World Turns...


Vet came out this morning. Checked her and still didnt see any real edema. Her follicle was still large and starting to get slightly softer but it was still considered toned.

She went in with a speculum *sp* vaginally to look at her cervix. She said it had more color and was slightly softer. She could barely get 1 finger in on Thursday and today she got 1 1/2 (barely).

But when she looked at the sperm under the microscope, she said maybe 10% were alive. So now Im frusterated b/c it looks like that was what could have killed them (obviously we will never know absolutely what killed them).

Vet said that if everything was perfect with her edema and everything, she wouldnt have a problem with the sperm. But with her not being quite right, she didnt feel comfortable and feared her getting an infection.

So shes coming out first thing Monday morning to check her. Hopefully she'll be ready and we can get the sperm sent counter-to-counter and breed. If not, wait, and short cycle her again.

Im not sure how to approach this with the SO though. I certainly dont want to blame her instructions 100% for the sperms death however, based on what I have been told, that is the likely culprit. But really, I know that *I* am the one who ordered it, and Im the one with the mare, she just sends it when I order it. Since she wasnt ready Friday, like we planned, we ended up keeping the sperm an extra day, but also, I was informed that the sperm would last until Saturday. Oh well, chalk it up to the joys of breeding, right? ;)

[Home Again Farm]

I am amazed that there were instructions to remove the semen from the box.

Also amazed that your vet didn't give hcg Friday. If that had been done and the mare inseminated as soon as the semen arrived you'd have a great chance for a pregnancy. decent quality shipped fresh semen lasts a long time in a mare. Also edema peaks well before ovulation. The mare may have had good edema and may be almost ready to ovulate now.

I hope things work out for you.

[KrazyTBMare]

She uses Ovuplan instead of HcG. She said that Ovuplan is a newer drug and she prefers to use it over HcG b/c some mares have antiboties to HcG and not Ovuplan. She also said that what she gives to expell the fluid isnt oxytocin like I said earlier in the post, though everyone was telling me it was what she gave. Its another newer drug that starts with a P (sorry I cant remember the name off the top of my head) but is similar to oxytocin.

She said she didnt want to give her the Ovuplan Thursday b/c she was not showing any signs of being in the right condition to breed (no edema, very very tight and firm cervix that had no color) and felt that we wouldnt get a pregnancy. She said that should would have given my mare HcG IV today if everything was right, and WOULD have bred her this afternoon if the sperm was alive. She had everything ready and we were going to breed until she looked under the microscope and saw that 90% were already dead. She also said it was more than likely taking the sperm out of the box that killed them. But again, thats a "more than likely" but no one can be 100% sure.

[mistyjewell]

Does your vet breed a lot? I just have a feeling that she isn't being as helpful as she could be, especially with the expense of breeding. Somethinsg you're saying just aren't fitting with what a good repro vet would suggest or do.

Was she ultrasounding the follicles? If they are over 35mm you can use HcG/PG/ovulplant and they should ovulate within 48 hours. How did she check the color of the cervix? Did she actually look? Also, while follicle firmness/softness is an indication, it's not 100% and can change quickly.

It just sucks because you're having to have the vet out there a lot, and it's not being very successful, now you might have to pay for another collection and shipping fee with the stallion, again costing you more money, and you're missing breeding cycles.

Also, someone mentioned the timed breeding, and breeding pre and post ovulation. That's used for frozen, not with fresh. My vet won't put fresh cooled in a mare after she's ovulated if you already had one does in her fresh. There's no need to put that extra fluid in her if you don't need to.

[shaft0463]

Can you have your vet contact the SO and explain that only 10% were alive? Sounds like the news might be better coming from a vet.

I'm so glad i opted for live cover, even if it did suck having my mare gone that long. One cover, job is done.

[Fairview Horse Center]

When your vet found the 36 on Thursday, if he had given hCG OR ovuplant then, the follicle would have been ready to ovulate sometime on Saturday. hCG works a bit faster, so probably early Sat. When the semen arrived on Friday, if you had put it in the mare, I agree, an excellent chance of a pregnancy. It was good timing, and a good follicle that the DRUG would have pushed your mare's readiness along. THAT is what it does.

Now you are hoping to delay the ovulation, and a single dose of P & E has been pretty successful at doing that.

The drug that works similar to oxytocin is prostin - same stuff you give to get them to com in heat. Prostin does make the mare;s uterus contract longer. There is a concern that it may interfere with the forming of a CL though. I would not give it after ovulation.

BTW, there is no magic in the freezer packs for the disposable shippers. Instead of putting the semen into the refrigerator that may give the sperm cold shock from being too cold, I have just swapped off the freezer pack for another - even a couple of those small blue lunch box freezer gel packs. Be careful to not allow them to touch the syringes. Some people even say a bag of frozen peas works nicely, :winkgrin: although it won't stay cold as long. :cool:

[dressage72]

I'm sorry you are going through all of this, but your vet has my head SPINNING! No offense....seriously, but does she know what she is doing?!?! :eek:

Not giving HCG was her first mistake, by saying she didn't have good edema was her second mistake (mare should have edema 36 or so hours PRIOR to ovulation!) if she didn't see a lot of edema she should take that as signs that she was pretty ready to ovulate and the HCG or whatever she is using will make a 36mm or larger follicle ready to go! Third mistake was even though your mare sounded ready to go, she chose not to inseminate with only 10% still alive. Well, after all that money for collection fees and VET fees I would have taken my chances with that 10% because it only takes ONE sperm!

It just sounds like she is not really "experienced" enough in my general view of all that your posting about to really get this mare pregnant.

On TOP of everything else...........do NOT have her horn breed your mare if she is having this much trouble figuring everything else out. JMHO!

Good luck!

[KrazyTBMare]

Since Im not well versed in all this breeding stuff, please dont take my 2nd hand account of the events to form an opinion of my vet. Shes a damn good vet and excellent in repro and highly experienced in it. I wouldnt want any other vet in our area working with my mare. I may forget a few words here or there or some details as Im trying to remember as much I can with something I know nothing about (along with studying for school and trying not to mix up info).

Yes, she used a speculum (basically a sterile, rod looking thing) and stuck it in her vagina and used a flash light to look down at her cervix, much like an OBGyn does when she uses her tools to look at a womans cervix.

She just called me back and said that under her larger microscope that the sperm did not look any better, even after having a chance to warm up. So instead of risking it causing an infection and wasting the whole season, we are waiting to see what she looks like Monday and if its not right, wait, short cycle, and try again.

Its hard for me to try to convey the exact conversation and all the details. You guys are far more experienced with this than I am. So I may be leaving out some things I dont realize to make you guys question her, but please, no bashing her. Lets keep that on a professional level.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Why was your vet evaluating sperm when it was not warmed up?

The % of motile sperm has nothing to do with whether it is a good breeding dose. It is all in the numbers. If you have 2 to 3 billion sperm, and it is 10% progressive, you would still have a very good chance of a pregnancy. OTOH, if you have 100 million at 70%, not so good.

We are reading the signs to evaluate a vet's skills in equine reproduction, and I am trying to be VERY professional. All of these questions being asked are questions that you have to aks yourself, just how wrong you got it? Did she say the follicle was a 2.6, not a 3.6? If so, not ready. If you DID correctly say that the follicle was a 3.6 on Thursday, then to not give the hCG or Ovuplant says CLEARLY that the vet may be experienced in repro, but not up to date on information, and not what I would call good at it.

WAY too many things not right, begining with it is ok to just put the semen syringes in the fridge by themselves. That is NOT ok, and should send you a CLEAR message that YOU need to get up to speed, if you are going to continue to use a vet that is not. Please don't get defensive. We are trying to help YOU get up to speed, so you can know the right answers, to be able to poke/suggest/insist your vet along to do the right things.

Currently you have a vet not up to date, a stallion owner not up to date, etc. NOT looking good for a pregnancy or especially your pocket book.

[Fairview Horse Center]

BTW, the biggest single reason for poor motility in semen is improper warming and evaluating.

[mistyjewell]

Please realize we aren't bashing your vet, we are trying to help you. To many of us, who know a lot about breeding and have been doing it for years, but the information you are giving us is pretty much is leaving us baffled. Thats why we were asking the questions we did, and made the suggestions we did.

Maybe it's not a big deal for you, but I know in my case that I can't afford to throw away breeding cycles and pay for useless vet call fees, which is what it sounds like to us from your post.

Personally, I have no idea why your vet would say 10% progressibly motile sperm would give the mare an infection. When a mare is bred, only one sperm fertilizes and egg, the rest die anyway, so to the mare 10% or 60% doesn't matter, you just have a better chance with 60%. But it still only takes one. I have known vets that got mares pregnant with that, but it requires careful management of the mare and her cycle and good timing on insemination.

I just know that a lot of us would be very frustrated if the things going on with your vet would go on with mine, and I would want to find another one. But that's just me. If you're happy with her, and think she's doing an adaquate job, and there is more going on then what you tell us, then great. But it seems to me that you are throwing away a lot of money on trying to breed your mare, and I know I would be livid if I had to continously wait on my vet like that. I would have bred my mare on Friday with the first dose, mare's make a much better incubator then the containers do, and barring that, I would have still tried to breed her on Sat. It's just frustrating to hear about these things from you, and try and help you and educate you so you can talk to your vet and hopefully get your mare pregannt with as little problems as possible.

[KrazyTBMare]

I do appreciate your help guys, I just know that there are people who read these forums who know her and I dont want anyone twisting words around and telling her Im making her look bad, etc. B/c thats really not the case. Not once have I mentioned any names or specifics, but the internet is a big world, ya know? And the horse one is a small one.

Anyways.

I do think those are all viable questions and when I see my vet, Ill ask for clarification regarding if the HcG or Ovuplan are meant to make her ovulate, why does the cervix have to do X,Y,Z and is edema is a sign of ovulation, why must we have it if we are giving her a shot to make her ovulate.

Thanks again for all help.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I do think those are all viable questions and when I see my vet, Ill ask for clarification regarding if the HcG or Ovuplan are meant to make her ovulate, why does the cervix have to do X,Y,Z and is edema is a sign of ovulation, why must we have it if we are giving her a shot to make her ovulate.

:yes: As the hCG pushes her to progress, it pushes ALL of her body functions along with it to "readiness".

Reality is that a vet has to do so many things, it is hard to stay up to date on all of it. Many vets really appreciate their clients that find new information, and politely, and respectfully help them discover ways to make them a better vet. We can point them in the right direction, so they can quickly do a bit of research to update their skills. I don't expect my vet to know everything. I expect them to listen, to see if what I am saying makes sense, and go back to their computers to verify, or correct.