DSHB classes

[Lafeyarabian]

I wasn't sure where to post this.

This past weekend I showed a 3 yr old colt in a DSHB class. I found it to be a little dissatifiying and hopefully this isn't sour grapes speaking. Before this colt I've never bothered to show in hand before- neither halter nor on the triangle. However, I think this colt is special, and I've been hanging on to him as a stallion prospect. So, I've been doing the DSHB thing to see what other people think of him. Anyway, this was our 2nd show of the year, and he doesn't have a lot of away from home experience. He was nervous, noisy, and fidgety but not horribly ill mannered. The show started with the mares and fillies and then went on to the stallions and colts. While waiting for our class I hung out and watched the show. In the arena, at the triangle apex, was the judge, a scribe, and a big name trainer/handler (I don't know why he was there) and then by the gait was a ring stewart and some other people. The trainer/handler had 2 flunkies handling horses for him in the various classes as he stood in the arena next to the judge telling them what to do. Finally, it's my class. I used a professional handler who handled my boy last year as well as this year. I decided not to run behind the horse with a whip as the result looks more like an arab halter class than a sporthorse class. My colt's walk was tense but the trot was really good especially since nobody was chasing him to get it. I was okay with his performance. Then the next horse went. It's a huge colt, and by colt I mean young stallion. The handler was one of the flunkies belonging to the trainer that had been hanging out with the judge all day. Another flunky was walking behind the horse with a whip. They went to the trot and this horse did 3 strides of "Ooooh I was really meant to be an arab halter horse trot" and then he breaks to a canter. The handler jerked on the horse, he stopped dead reared up, and then took off again at a canter (probably because of the other flunky that was still chasing him with a whip). Then they came to the corner, and the horse had the handler pressed into to the wall. The handler started wacking the horse in the head with the whip. They got out of the corner and the horse then just missed running over the ring steward. Can you guess which horse won?

I don't think that my horse should have won, and that isn't the point of this post. I don't, however, think the horse that won should have won either.

First, I don't know why the BNT was in the ring all day. Was he helping in some official capacity, and if so are there rules about his flunkies showing? It seems unfair to stand next to the judge all day and then get to give advice to your help.
Second, I hear lots of warmblood people speak negatively about arab horses and shows, but what these handlers did with this colt was certainly no better than what they criticize. They pushed this horse past the point where they could control him for 3 strides of trot!
Thirdly, the judge rewarded this by letting him win. There is a spot on the score sheet that talks about suitability and temperament. I don't think an out of control horse should have scored well enough to win.

It was very upsetting.

[fish]

Have you gone to any hunter breed shows? You may prefer the judging and procedures there.

[RP]

I have to agree with the OP. I've see it all the time. It seems that a lot of the judging is on the appearance of the horse, and less on the suitability for dressage. The more "developed" horses always seem to win, even if their movement and temperament are lacking. Just my experience.

It was good for you (OP) to get your young colt out and about. That's what I find DSHB shows good for.

[f4leggin]

I used to show my horses in these classes in southern california - I don't know if that's where you are - but generally, it was an unsatisfying experience. I thought it was too political. In Colorado, I have been much happier with my results, but it still is frustrating at times, because what we breed for (mature sport horses) doesn't always win as it grows and changes. My best offspring so far was a disaster in terms of confomation as a 1 yr old. I have a filly I have shown as a weanling, and a 1 yr old - this year I'll show her again as a 2 yr old. Instead of thinking of her scores, I have been using these shows as training and a way for me to spend "special" time with her. With that goal, the experience and money has been well worth it. I don't know how we will do this year, and of course hope it will be great (she won as a weanling, and lost consistantly as a 1 yr old)!

Jill

[hluing]

I am betting that the BNT is going for his/her license and was thier practice judging. However, I don't think you are supposed to do that AND have your own horses compete...but I may be wrong. As a scribe, I too have seen some odd things happen at these shows...but luckly it is not the norm. I have noticed a huge variation in the quality of judges and some really seem to have different taste then others. I think you have to go out there and see it as an experience or a training/exposure to new things for your horse.

[Hillside H Ranch]

In general I find the DSHB shows to be less political than the HB shows. But, I don't do either to win, I simply use them to get my horses used to the show environment. I have found that DSHB judges will look past a lot of bad behavior, simply chalking it up to young horse shenanigans. Often the horse can be a little "out of control" but if it has the big trot it is going to win. The thing I like about DSHB shows is that you can see your scores afterward and you know exactly what the judge liked and didn't like. The score sheets are weighted so that conformation, walk and trot are more important than the general impression, which is where any temperment issue would fall.
I wouldn't worry about it-I always say it doesn't really matter what they do in-hand; afterall we aren't breeding halter horses, we are (most of us) breeding riding horses and future perforance under saddle is what will matter.
Good for you for getting your boy out!

[carolprudm]

who finds the term flunky offensive?
Assistant or associate perhaps?

[NoDQhere]

We have been showing in the DHSB classes and have found the Judging, for the most part, to be fair. These classes are about movement and "type" for Dressage, not a "manners" contest.

We just showed 4 horses at a USDF DSHB show. Two of those were 2 year old fillies, one very mature looking and one very immature. (she's not quite 2) The immature filly won everything and in fact was the Reserve Overall Champion of the whole show, right behind her sire. Their scores were quite close, not surprising as the daughter is a small feminine replica of her sire ;)

These shows are a GREAT opportunity to get youngsters out and gain valuable experience in the show ring.

[mbamissaz]

Is this a recognized show that you were at? My horse has shown in quite a few recognize DSHB classes and I can tell you that I've never seen a trainer "hang out and talk to" the judge all day...

Aside from that, a couple of things you mentioned stuck out to me...I don't think I've ever seen a handler go in and show a horse in one of these classes w/o an assistant (with the exception of perhaps the weanling class)...so I'm not sure what result you were hoping to accomplish by not assisting your handler.....

I've also never seen a handler "whacking a horse in the face with the whip" in the ring....EVER. I have seen a handler use the "handle" part of the whip to keep the horse straight....

Like another poster said...these classes aren't a "manner" contest....the judges could really care less about manners...they are interested in conformation and movement. Period. Just go watch Devon some time if you don't believe me.

[tempichange]

I showed my then young mare in these classes and I found that it wasn't the horse with the best manners or who could trot the most accurate triangle (this is what AA/JrYr Handler is for). They (the judges and the breeders) are quite serious about having the very best in the class, and will give scores accordingly.

These classes are judged on the potential of the horse as a dressage horse, not the manners, not accuracy, but POTENTIAL. Young horses will act up, and judges will dismiss this or if it gets truly outrageous, dissmiss them.

Was it wrong to thwack him in the head? I don't know I wasn't there and I most certainly wouldn't like being stuck between a wall and a young stallion in an excitable situation.

As for the trainer, s/he was probably earning her judge card and it is required that they spend time with the officials in a official capacity. It is perfectly legal for them to show their own horses in this class. Can't cite the rule off the top of my head, but it is legal.

[pintopiaffe]

I don't think I've ever seen a handler go in and show a horse in one of these classes w/o an assistant

I've never had a whip person. I handle my own horses. Perhaps that's why we just get Res.Ch. instead of Ch. Mature horse, but knowing the mare who beat us every time, I don't think so. ;)

That's about the only thing here I can comment on.

Well, plus, I'd be pretty dissapointed all the way around too, whether or not any of it is justifiable, I can understand your frustration and dissapointment.

[Hillside H Ranch]

Wanted to add that I handle my own horses and I don't ever use a whip assistant either. I find that for my horses it just makes them tense and less apt to concentrate on me. My horses move better when relaxed, not tense and hence I don't see the need for a handler. And I've had horses become the show champs, as well, so I don't think it hurts!
Mostly the other posts are correct-not a manners contest and sometimes it can even get a little scary!

[PineTreeFarm]

.

Was it wrong to thwack him in the head? I don't know I wasn't there and I most certainly wouldn't like being stuck between a wall and a young stallion in an excitable situation.

As for the trainer, s/he was probably earning her judge card and it is required that they spend time with the officials in a official capacity. It is perfectly legal for them to show their own horses in this class. Can't cite the rule off the top of my head, but it is legal.

The USEF rules state that "any striking of the horse’s head (on the poll and forward of the poll) with the whip shall be deemed excessive." So assuming that the show was USEF recognized a chat with the steward might have been in order. There are always emergencies that are dealt with outside of the rules so if the handler was in danger of being injured it might have been a judgement call.

Please cite the rule that says a learner judge can judge their own horses.
Regular judges can't judge their own horses so I'm curious about the logic.
Although it probably wouldn't make any difference as learner judge scores should not be used in the official results.

[Lafeyarabian]

The show was one of the USDF qualifiers.

I used the term flunky deliberately because it didn't seem very professional to stand next to the judge and then be able to shout advice. If the BNT didn't interact with them during the show then I would have felt better about calling them associates. Even if there is no rule against it that doesn'tmean there shouldn't be.

I get that the class is about movement and conformation first. I'm just not sure that with 3 strides of trot that his trot that his was the best.

As for whacking the horse in the head with the whip... I don't really have a problem with the way the HANDLER (see I didn't say flunky) reacted. If it was a choice between hitting the horse and being squashed I'd have hit the horse too. My point was more that if the horse was out of control enough to need to be whacked upside the head then maybe he should have been penalized more severely.

As for a whip assisstant, this is my 2nd year doing DSHB classes. I see some people use them and some don't. It's been my observation that when used calmness and control are often sacrificed for brilliance of gait. I don't want to sacrifice those things. My point in mentioning a whip assistant was that this horse didn't need one. In fact his behavior was probably compounded by having somebody chase him with a whip.

[fish]

IMO, one of the biggest problems with the DSHB classes is that the classes often turn out to be not about "movement and conformation first," but "movement-- meaning brilliant trot-- first"-- with the young horses' relaxation, manners, etc., often being tossed out the window in order to produce a few steps of "brilliance." This is why I started showing my young horses in the hunter breed shows instead, and suggested that you might like to consider this alternative way to get your young horse out where he can be seen. I'm sure there are downsides to these shows, too, but at least they don't include any tendency to "get a little scary" as a result of handler-induced explosions from the horses.

[tempichange]

IMO, one of the biggest problems with the DSHB classes is that the classes often turn out to be not about "movement and conformation first," but "movement-- meaning brilliant trot-- first"-- with the young horses' relaxation, manners, etc., often being tossed out the window in order to produce a few steps of "brilliance." This is why I started showing my young horses in the hunter breed shows instead, and suggested that you might like to consider this alternative way to get your young horse out where he can be seen. I'm sure there are downsides to these shows, too, but at least they don't include any tendency to "get a little scary" as a result of handler-induced explosions from the horses.

No, you have to deal with the political beast that is hunters. Personally, I'd rather take them to a DSHB classes, that way you at least get feedback and an honest answer. I'd wait until material to really expect something.

[Fairview Horse Center]

With the DSHB classes, it may be the horse that shows the fiery brilliance ends up Champion, but you can do VERY well with a nice horse, good conformation, nice elastic walk & trot. I know, as I have been doing it for years. Not a single time has one of my horses been "up" at a show, although not for lack of trying. ;) They are just TOO easy going. They place well because they are a complete package. Someday I would really LOVE to get that big championship, but with the quieter brains I breed, that may just never happen. That is ok, as they have exceeded my dreams inhand, and are wonderful athletic partners under saddle.

[fish]

No, you have to deal with the political beast that is hunters. Personally, I'd rather take them to a DSHB classes, that way you at least get feedback and an honest answer. I'd wait until material to really expect something.

To each his own. My major concern when I take a baby out is much less about who gets what color ribbon than the kind of experience my horse has, and giving him/her the best possible opportunity to be seen by others behaving quietly and well. The oral feedback I receive from fellow horsepeople at the hunter shows more than compensates for the absence of written remarks by judges and I've generally found the entire atmosphere more congenial-- perhaps because I've not found it difficult to remain oblivious/indifferent to whatever "politics" may be in the air. I remember being taught in Poly Sci that "as soon as you've got two people on a bus, you've got politics," so I've never expected horse shows (even DSHB ones) to be without them.

[Oldenburg Mom]

(pssssst. Ask Ms. FHC how her mare did in class 23.)

[Fairview Horse Center]

:lol::lol::lol: Ok, not hot enough for the Championship, but I am perfectly happy with my class win. ;) AND thanks to OM for checking on my sweet girl when my boy had a last minute hot date with the phantom. :winkgrin:

[Oldenburg Mom]

I am so proud of so many people--and that includes you, FHC!!!! Your girl is LOVELY! And the competition at the show was TOUGH. I know someone who received as 79--without receiving a ribbon!!! HOLY SMOKES! :eek:

[sporthorsefilly]

OMOM you forgot to mention the nice yearling filly who got a 79.7 and won her class ;(

[Oldenburg Mom]

I don't mention names ...

[MagicRoseFarm]

With the DSHB classes, it may be the horse that shows the fiery brilliance ends up Champion, but you can do VERY well with a nice horse, good conformation, nice elastic walk & trot. I know, as I have been doing it for years. Not a single time has one of my horses been "up" at a show, although not for lack of trying. ;) They are just TOO easy going. They place well because they are a complete package. Someday I would really LOVE to get that big championship, but with the quieter brains I breed, that may just never happen. That is ok, as they have exceeded my dreams inhand, and are wonderful athletic partners under saddle.

I totally agree with Daryl ( and FIsh ) on this one.... as proof you can do well:
Last year we qualified for the East Coast Championships with two of our homebreds. While we placed 8th and 9th, I was very happy with this. These two were ( possibly the only two ):
American bred, by stallions that physically stand in the US( not frozen),one a fourth generation of our mare program.
The other from an American bred mare we purchased who had more than 10 foals for us, many who became FEI horses.

They are easy to live with and handle, and both have great futures in OUR MARKET, way past the DSHB classes...

[sporthorsefilly]

Once again, this thread has taken a different turn from the OPs statement.

As someone who has shown 4 years in DSHB, I find some ethical concerns. For example, announcing the breeding of a horse for the judge to hear. Now, I have to say, that if the sire is (hypothetical) World Dressage Champion 2005 out of mare by World Dressage Champion 2003...I do believe that this carries more weight, than an equal horse who is by Nice hunter Stallion out of nice mare by unknown stallion. Just my opinion. This breeding announcing is NOT done in either dog shows or cat shows! Also didn't hear it in hunter shows (years ago...not sure of now).

I also have a problem with handlers who jerk, and jerk and jerk on a youngster, until the poor horse is so hysterical that it can't relax. Not exactly what you want a young horse to remember about showing!

Then there is the "follower"...so who follows you in the ridden dressage classes?

This isn't sour grapes, as both my girls won a class this past week...but it is an observation and my opinion. The OP "wonders" about certain protocols...and sometimes, I do too! Sadly, asking about "things" often gets you more grief than you had before you asked :-)

Speaking of Arabs...there was a lovely Polish Arab Stallion there, I cautiously approached the owners with "he appears to have some Arab blood" fearing that he might well be a "german sport horse" and I might insult them. Fortunately, we had a good laugh over it :)

[Cold Spring Farm]

Speaking of Arabs...there was a lovely Polish Arab Stallion there, I cautiously approached the owners with "he appears to have some Arab blood" fearing that he might well be a "german sport horse" and I might insult them. Fortunately, we had a good laugh over it :)


That was my friend's lovely young stallion...pure Polish...and just a charming fellow ! Didn'tcha just love his face!!

[MagicRoseFarm]

For example, announcing the breeding of a horse for the judge to hear. Now, I have to say, that if the sire is (hypothetical) World Dressage Champion 2005 out of mare by World Dressage Champion 2003...I do believe that this carries more weight, than an equal horse who is by Nice hunter Stallion out of nice mare by unknown stallion. Just my opinion. This breeding announcing is NOT done in either dog shows or cat shows! Also didn't hear it in hunter shows (years ago...not sure of now).


I showed five horses at this show, and BOTH judges asked the breeding on ONE..,our Welsh / Hanoverian stallion Hot Shot MRF. and I think that was only to determine if he was the proper size for his type... The announcement of breed is for the educational benefit of the spectators, I am pretty sure the judges seldom hear it, as they are involved in their job.

WHAT did frustrate me though as an exhibitor, was one judge scored one of my horses the same across the board with a certain number, then gave .4 LOWER score on the general impression score... THAT one I will never get... escpecially since this horse showed well with good manners.

[ahf]

Then there is the "follower"...so who follows you in the ridden dressage classes?

No one follows you in a ridden dressage class. Because your leg and seat are your driving aids, up to the hand. Same principle. A handler really has no driving aid - hence the whip handler.

When done correctly, and judiciously (and I didn't see a lot of that at this show in question) it works. But since these horses are handed off to the handler at the last minute, the handler and the assistant handler have all of 5 minutes to ascertain the needed amount of pressure and distance.

[MagicRoseFarm]

Then there is the "follower"...so who follows you in the ridden dressage classes?


I prefer to send my own assistant( or myself) into the ring with the whip, as we work with the horses at home and can provide what is best for the individual.

[lorik]

As for the BNT in the ring shouting orders to the handlers, unless the judge had told him to, I would consider that to be unauthorized assistance. There is a rule that went into effect 12/1/06 that says the Unauthorized assistance by individuals outside the competition ring is not permitted. Now, this person was 'technically' in the competition ring, but.....

[sporthorsefilly]

Cold Spring Farm, yes, I loved the face and especially the eye of that lovely Polish Arabian Stallion. Such an intelligent look!

As for "driving aids," I can understand to a degree. However, I do recall someone getting into the ring last August, standing in the corner and cracking the whip to motivate the horse...at which point the handler nearly was run over! To me a horse without its own desire to move forward, would not be a pleasant mount, especially in dressage. But then they do this in Europe so it must be the thing to do!

Judges do hear the announcements, they also ask, as Magic Rose pointed out.

[MagicRoseFarm]

Judges do hear the announcements, they also ask, as Magic Rose pointed out.

After this statement, I think it wise to expand upon my prior post. The judges did ask about our stallion Hot Shot this past week. I would have also , had I been the judge, since he was so much smaller than most other entries (as the only sport pony type in the entire competition).

Judges almost always ask age on the younger prospects to determine maturity and developement for the age. A February yearling would be much more developed than a July yearling. A judge who asks information necessary can give a more accurate assessment of the individual he is judging.

In the 20+ years I have been showing DSHB classes, I have felt that the judges are generally very professional ( although there are exceptions like possibly the OP case). I appreciate their pleasantness, as I think it demonstrates a genuine interest in the horses ( rather than indiscretion) . Unlike competing in some other breeding disciplines, I think DSHB is fairly user friendly, and should remain that way.

I very much appreciate the breeding being announced for my own educational purposes ( when I have time to spectate) and think it is an absolute necessity for the future of ALL sport. In other disciplines, everyone is BEGGING to have breeding announced/printed ... yet there are sour grapes about it in a breeding discipline...

[sporthorsefilly]

I agree with Magic Rose that the judges are interested and especially with youngsters, questions asked may verify what the judge is seeing at that time.

I don't agree with the value of announcing the breeding. The breeding is printed in the catalog, for everyone to look over, when they have time. For those who make their living off breeding it is of course wonderful to have their horses announced as the sire or dam etc.

With MRFs Pony Stallion, I understand the judge asking and being interested in a Pony. I'm not certain that "all" sports are asking for breeding to be announced. The Dog Fancy definitely does not, nor does the cat fancy, where I spent 30 years!

Politics is present in "showing." IMHO limiting the information announced, as to breed; age; breeder and owner would be prudent.

[maple_brook]

Considering many of the horses have a brand on their bum, the judge can usually tell what 'breed' they are, with or without the announcers help. So, I don't see a problem with announcing the sire/dam.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Many shows do not put breeding information in their programs. They may announce it later at the awards, but unless each placing horse re-demonstrates its gaits & conformation stance, that does nothing to educate the spectators about the result of the cross. PLUS, most people do not make sure they have a program and follow the breeding even if it is in there.

Breed shows are to educate, and evaluate breeding.

Politics are not avoided just by not announcing. Handlers can come with shirts that advertise their farm/association, plus, many horses are well known before ever getting to a show.

[sporthorsefilly]

All breed shows are meant to educate, both the spectators and the exhibitors. Agree that brands tell the breed. Breed shows are always extremely popular with breeders, and the concept isn't new!

Google provided that:

the oldest Horse show in the US: Upperville dates to 1853
The oldest Dog Show England: 1853; Birmingham held 1860; Crufts 1886
The oldest Cat Show: 1887 also in England

All of these shows, show case breeds, and breeders.

NONE announce the sire or dam.

Personally, if I see a horse that I particularly like, I will ask the breeding.

I agree with FairView that politics can't be eliminated.

[MagicRoseFarm]

A dog show and DSHB do not compare, Period. If you want to evaluate pet or lap dogs, go to a dog show.


If you must compare it, compare it to a hound show, a group of dogs of several breeds, and of the same or similar type, showing potential for a VERY SPECIFIC JOB. Bloodlines are VERY important there as well. The only spectators you see at these are interested in hunting and breeding hounds.

Like DSHB you would go broke selling tickets to spectators. The audience is very specific.

Dressage Sport Horse Breeding is very specific.
From the scoresheet -
PURPOSE : to evaluate potential, suitability, and qualities as a dressage sport horse (performance horse or breeding stock)

Serious breeders at these shows are too busy (with their own stock competing) to go find a program and dig when they see an individual that peaks their interest, BUT they stilll want to be educated. A DSHB program is evening reading material.

As a breeder, I appreciate the announcement of owner and breeder but until it pays, it is not as important as the individual horse itself AND the bloodlines. I want to evaluate that particular horse in front of me, with as much information as possible, at the moment.

This country is SOO big ( limiting the possibility to see many breeding options in one place at one time) and there are sooo many choices. DSHB shows are sooo small in the big picture, that it would be a huge disservice to the already disadvantaged breeder to NOT provide this information.

Other disciplines are now recognizing the importance and changing to include bloodline information, as it becomes more readily available to them with current technology.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Personally, if I see a horse that I particularly like, I will ask the breeding.

That is the big difference to me as a breeder. I am much less concerned with what worked, than I am with what did not. I can always find good examples of a bloodline, or a cross. I want to know what I do NOT like, and the lineage crosses that make me go :no: or :confused:.

I have MANY times heard a horse announced, and scurried (I would say "ran", but not possible) :winkgrin: to get a better view.

Finding a stalliion to me has never been about finding a stallion that impresses me. - MANY do That is an exciting way to breed as a gambler. I am not much of a gambler. For me, it is more a proccess of elimination. Knowing what I didn't like helps narrow the field, and improves my odds of success.

[patch work farm]

I think there is definite education value in announcing the sire/dam. For instance, there were at least 3 Royal Prince fillies in the yearling class, from what I saw, each of them were very different from the others. When the judge asked about the dam side of my filly, it gave him different perspective from the one out of the Contucci mare (which Trish, I liked a lot!). Mine is actually all Prince Thatch as far as I am concerned (having had a PT filly previously, I can recognize what he gave her, long legs-not much bone, longer pasterns, "the PT ears"). This filly really does not look at all like her UNCLE Gold Luck except her color/chrome. It also helps me as a breeder to identify what I might hope to gain from a particular breeding.

My vet was here last night to check pregnancies and we discussed my two full brothers, the newest addition being much more refined/prettier than his yearling sibling. Even when breeding the same combination you get changes year to year so I think it is important to know what sire/dam combination you are looking at.

I don't think I have ever seen a Rosenthal foal I didn't like, but I find it extremely interesting to see differences from the dam lines. If it wasn't announced and I didn't have a program handy, how would I know the bloodlines otherwise?

[sporthorsefilly]

MagicRose...a Crufts Dog show there are ALL dogs, not just lap dogs, but gun dogs, hounds etc. I was not talking about specialty shows.

Please tell me why a judge who is evaluating an individual on the merit it is SEEING, needs to know the breeding????

That is the point I am making.

Yes, breeders need to know the breeding: where the ears, temperment, bone, etc is coming from...but the judge shouldn't need to hear the breeding to evaluate the individual in front of him/her.

Come on now Fairview, I have seen you run :-)

Although I am new to horse breeding, and do it as a hobby, not a job, I am very serious. I bred top winning cats for 30 years, I take things like heart problems, leg faults and life expectancy, extremely seriously. The first thing I look at is how long the parents, grand parents, etc lived. Health problems? I am not into breeding to the "fashionable names." I do my own thing :) :)

[maple_brook]

I really don't think the judge pays any attention to what is going on over the loud speaker. And I highly doubt he is taking notes on what bloodlines are being mentioned, not do I think the judge really cares. The announcements are for the spectators.

I have scribed for DSHB shows and also recently took the Judges Seminar that NEDA held with Hilda Gurney. And things move very fast in the ring, you are writing final comments on the previous competitors score sheet while the next competitor is on the way in. You really don't have time to stop and listen to the announcer, let only think, 'Oh, by Weltmeyer, 2 extra points!' or 'Oh, by JoeSmoo, yawn'. It just doesn't happen.

As someone else mentioned, if politics is going to play a role, the Farm shirts worn by handlers is a bigger clue in than bloodlines over the loud speaker. But I seriously doubt that factors in to any of the judges thoughts.

Considering we as breeders are trying to educate our riders about the importance of bloodlines, I can't even phathom why we would want to silence that information at a breed show.

[lorik]

As the secretary or manager for several DSHB shows, I have had the opportunity to ask many judges about the announcement of bloodlines. Most tell me that they don't even listen to the announcer. They're too busy finishing the score sheets for the last horse to listen to the bloodlines of the next.

I feel it's important for anyone watching the horses go to know the bloodlines. It's true that not all of the shows publish the sire/dam/dam's sire in the program. It depends on the software used and the ability to extract the desired information. I will continue to ask the announcer to give bloodlines wherever possible for the sake of education.

[PineTreeFarm]

As the secretary or manager for several DSHB shows, I have had the opportunity to ask many judges about the announcement of bloodlines. Most tell me that they don't even listen to the announcer. They're too busy finishing the score sheets for the last horse to listen to the bloodlines of the next.

I feel it's important for anyone watching the horses go to know the bloodlines. It's true that not all of the shows publish the sire/dam/dam's sire in the program. It depends on the software used and the ability to extract the desired information. I will continue to ask the announcer to give bloodlines wherever possible for the sake of education.

USEF rules are as follows:
Note that the rule mentions 'when pinned', not during the class.
While the rule as written doesn't prohibit announcements during the class I wonder what the intent is.

3. When possible, the announcement of awards will include the breeding of the horses pinned: sire, dam, dam’s sire; as well as the name of the owner and the breeder.

[sporthorsefilly]

Thanks PTF, for that rule.

The DSHB shows are: "operated in accordance with the current rules of the USA Equestrian, of which body they are Dressage Member competitions, rated N." As stated on the first page of the catalog.

Announcing the sire, dam and grandsire of a competing horse may then well be a violation of USEF rules. Imagine that!

[lorik]

Announcing the breeding is NOT against the rules. The rule, as stated, is the suggestion of USEF to announce "when possible" the breeding during awards ceremonies. It does not state that announcing the breeding can not be done during the class. There is no such rule. If one feels that strongly that we can't trust our judges not to be swayed by the announcement of bloodlines, then maybe one should petition USEF for a rule change.

[PineTreeFarm]

Announcing the breeding is NOT against the rules. The rule, as stated, is the suggestion of USEF to announce "when possible" the breeding during awards ceremonies. It does not state that announcing the breeding can not be done during the class. There is no such rule. If one feels that strongly that we can't trust our judges not to be swayed by the announcement of bloodlines, then maybe one should petition USEF for a rule change.

Lorik are you making the above statement in the role of a show secretary or as steward?

[lorik]

PTF,
I guess I'm speaking as a show secretary and manager that has been announcing breeding for years even when Janine Malone (the walking rule book) has been the Technical Delegate. If it were, indeed, against the rules, Janine would have stopped it long ago. :)

[arnika]

I was under the impression that the announcing rule was to encourage the announcing of bloodlines at shows, not to restrict it to the placings only. If there is anyone who could clarify the underlying intent, please let us know.

[PineTreeFarm]

PTF,
I guess I'm speaking as a show secretary and manager that has been announcing breeding for years even when Janine Malone (the walking rule book) has been the Technical Delegate. If it were, indeed, against the rules, Janine would have stopped it long ago. :)

I'm sure you are aware that a show secretary has no business interpreting the rules, that's the stewards job.
Sometimes things are just accepted because they have been going on for years and then when they are questioned it turns out that there is a problem.
I didn't say the rules prohibited the announcements. I did say I wondered what the intent was, particularly as the rule goes so far as to mention an appropriate time to make an announcement. If it did not say 'announcement of awards' then it would be clear that the timing doesn't make any difference but somebody at USEF thought 'announcement of awards' needed to be in the rule.
Question should be directed to USEF or a show steward.

[maple_brook]

:no: I'm baffled to say the least. Why would anyone be so afraid of announcing bloodlines? :confused: I read that rule as arnika did...that is was meant to encourage the announcement of bloodlines, NOT to limit it to a certain time frame. If the intent was to limit it, there would have been a few more words added.

PTF...I would suggest that you volunteer as a scribe sometime at a DSHB show. It is a very educational and enlightening experience. And afterwards, I'm fairly sure you will agree that the judge really doesn't have time to pay attention to what is going on over the loud speaker. I would bet they are so focused that they don't even hear it.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Not announcing the bloodlines would be the same as stopping announcers from announcing a horse's name, rider's name, owner, etc. It is definitely not as political as saying now we have Lendon Gray, or Robert Dover riding XYZ. How about "next to go in the freestyle is Blue Hors Matine"? Or, whoops, some of these guys are clearly recognizable, so maybe they should have to wear disguises? ;)

Next time Liberty Gold shows up at Devon, maybe he should have to have an Appy pattern sprayed on his butt. :cool: and Popeye K should clearly have to have those socks painted black. :D

[lorik]

I'm sure you are aware that a show secretary has no business interpreting the rules, that's the stewards job.


Yes, it is the technical delegate's job to interpret the rules, but it's my job as manager to be sure that the shows I run stay within the rules. If not, both the show and I personally can be fined by USEF. I can not find a rule anywhere in the rulebook that prohibits the announcing of bloodlines either in the general rules (pertaining to all competitions) or within the discipline specific rules.

[BBowen]

As a newbie to the DSHB classes (showing and spectating), I like to hear the breed information. I know that there are politics involved in anything you do these days. I may be naive, but anything that is judged by someone else is not objective. What one person likes, another does not. We all have to live with that. It is one (or two) person's opinion on that day. I know that for breeders, that opinion can have a huge impact on marketing your young horses. But frankly, I would want to have the breeding announced for my own education and to know more about horses I like for the future. Yes, I can go back and look at the program, but I might not be able to pinpoint a horse of interest.

I was at a hunter/jumper show this past weekend and watched the breeding classes. All they gave was the number, the name of the horse, and who was showing it. I'm not even sure they announced the owner. The judge then placed them in order and that was it. No announcement at all about breeding or breeders. It would have been nice to know, but I was not inclined to go ask each handler about their horses.

[sporthorsefilly]

Fairview nice humorous comeback!

It really isn't a matter of "fear."

This past week a judge actually asked me about the breeding of my horse upon listening to the announcement! So occasionally they do hear it!

It isn't about how to interprete a rule.

It is about fairness, and about advertising!

For example, if we stated the breeding of all the horses that won at Morven, here on COTH, Erin would put a lock on the thread...why, because it is bragging and advertising!

No other type of "breed show" allows the announcement of the breeding of an individual...which is why I asked the question! USEF says you can announce the breeding when pinning the class...some interprete that as it is OK ALL the time. Yes, that should be clarified with the USEF.

Yes, judges get to know certain horses, people, t-shirts, etc that is just a given. Announcing the breeding is advertising and I bet there isn't a stallion owner out there that doesn't like to hear the name of his/her stallion or mare announced on the loud speaker.

[sporthorsefilly]

I was at a hunter/jumper show this past weekend and watched the breeding classes. All they gave was the number, the name of the horse, and who was showing it. I'm not even sure they announced the owner. The judge then placed them in order and that was it. No announcement at all about breeding or breeders. It would have been nice to know, but I was not inclined to go ask each handler about their horses.

This is actually the fairest way for a competition to be held, and it IS the way all other animal breed competitions are held.

Horse Competitions are not for the spectator, but for the exhibitor. If you really like a specific horse, then you find out about it. That isn't difficult.

[lorik]

Horse Competitions are not for the spectator, but for the exhibitor.

This is a good point. The way I see it (in most cases anyway) the exhibitor is usually a breeder and it benefits them to have the announcing done.

While I see your point in thinking that it shouldn't be done, I'm just trying to explain my resoning behind why I think it should. This is most likely an issue that we will forever disagree upon, but the discussion has been fun.:)

[sporthorsefilly]

I didn't say the rules prohibited the announcements. I did say I wondered what the intent was, particularly as the rule goes so far as to mention an appropriate time to make an announcement. If it did not say 'announcement of awards' then it would be clear that the timing doesn't make any difference but somebody at USEF thought 'announcement of awards' needed to be in the rule.
Question should be directed to USEF or a show steward.

Rules are made to insure fairness in a competition. The USEF should be addressed as to the interpretation of the rule and whether the announcement in DSHB shows is in violation of the rule OR whether the rule doesn't apply to DSHB shows.

Lorik, if the only people who show in DSHB shows are the breeders of the horses they are showing, then you are limiting those shows. DSHB shows shouldn't be "only for breeders" as you leave out or perhaps discourage the person who just might become interested enough to become a breeder.

[PineTreeFarm]

PTF...I would suggest that you volunteer as a scribe sometime at a DSHB show. It is a very educational and enlightening experience. And afterwards, I'm fairly sure you will agree that the judge really doesn't have time to pay attention to what is going on over the loud speaker. I would bet they are so focused that they don't even hear it.

I've been to enough of them to know what goes on. Being a scribe wouldn't enlighten me. However, if you want to volunteer to be gate person at a HB show then I might take you up on the scribe thing. LOL

[Dazednconfused]

No other type of "breed show" allows the announcement of the breeding of an individual...which is why I asked the question! USEF says you can announce the breeding when pinning the class...some interprete that as it is OK ALL the time. Yes, that should be clarified with the USEF.

Not true. Pedigrees are announced in breeding classes at Arabian shows (regionals & nationals, and Scottsdale). I believe AQHA does it at their world show, too.

[lorik]

Lorik, if the only people who show in DSHB shows are the breeders of the horses they are showing, then you are limiting those shows. DSHB shows shouldn't be "only for breeders" as you leave out or perhaps discourage the person who just might become interested enough to become a breeder.

I didn't say that breeders were the only people showing horses in DSHB shows. What I said was that it is usually the case.

[maple_brook]

I've been to enough of them to know what goes on. Being a scribe wouldn't enlighten me. However, if you want to volunteer to be gate person at a HB show then I might take you up on the scribe thing. LOL

I've been a gate steward before...back ages ago when I used to ride hunters. But if I have an questions about how things are handled at the gate, I'll be sure to let you know. ;)

I don't run a show, so I wasn't trying to dig up volunteers, I was simply pointing out that if you scribed you would get a chance to see just how busy the judge and scribe are. When I have scribed, horse A is walking out while the judge is dictating final comments and reviewing the information and then signing the score sheet. Horse B is usually stood up or at least halfway in the ring before you get a moment to look up, check their bridle number and confirm that the correct score sheet is about to be used.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy that the judge maybe hearing the breeding of a horse is going to effect the score. I think Fairview really hit the nail on the head with her joke about competitors and famous horses having to compete in disguise. I think Liberty Gold would look cute dressed up as an appy. I don't do the hunter breeding thing, but I have heard that if you don't have a professional handler, don't bother and I have also heard that many times placings depend on who is holding the end of the lead rope. Whether this is true or not, who knows. But I'm more apt to believe that the politics of who is in the ring are going to play more into it then who the sire/dam are. Seriously with the use of frozen, half the sires don't even live on this continent. How would politics play into that?

Now if the judge owned the sire of some of the horses, well then yes, there could definitely be a conflict of interest. But I would bet the judge knows those horses and doesn't need to hear an announcement for that. I would suspect there is probably a rule against this anyway.

I guess I just think the benefits of providing further information and education out weigh any possible politics.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I SHOULD be one that does not want the breeding announced. My youngsters are by my domestically bred, unlicensed stallions, and out of mares I bred, sometimes 3rd generation. If politics were involved, and the judge WAS influenced by the announcements, I would not have a chance to compete with imported frozen/Hilltop/Iron Spring Imported, out of imported SPS mares.

And then we get to the handlers from BNF. Although I have used several big name handlers, my best Devon placings have been with my best friend handling, or one of my kids.

[siegi b.]

I'm definitely FOR announcing pedigree information at breed shows.

One of the biggest problems in this country is the lack of education regarding what bloodlines produce what type of horse. It doesn't matter whether it's a domestically bred or imported horse, or a jumper, hunter, or dressage type.

Breeding is about KNOWING bloodlines and what they produce, so I think it's mandatory to have that information announced and available at breed shows.

[NoDQhere]

I agree with Siegi, the breeding SHOULD be announced. I don't think it influences the Judges either. It is very nice to hear the sire, dam and dam sire and the breeder.

I also don't think the "fire breathing dragon" has the advantage. The horse that stays straight and really moves "like a dressage horse" will win the DSHB classes.