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spirithorse
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:06 PM
In an archiac move, the dressage committee voted against allowing any form of bitless bridles in competition.

In clinical studies, it has been proven that the placement of the bit causes the horse to move its tongue for swallowing and this movement prohibits air from entering the lungs.

Also there is evidence that a bit places undue and unnatural constraints upon the neck and shoulder muscles of the horse, which causes the horse to not use it's back muscles correctly.

Loose, light, supple and unconstrained are words used to describe dressage, so why then does the FEI dressage committee force competitors to inflict the exact opposite upon their horses?

I ride without a bit and have done so since 1988, and I ride dressage with only ounces of contact pressure between my fingers and the reins, versus the pouunds of pressure being applied currently in the competition ring.

I do believe that dressage riders throughout this country should apply pressure to FEI to enforce the abuse rules they have in place and to enforce the mission statement placing the health and welfare of the horse at the highest.

Bogey2
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:12 PM
can you all wait a minute while I grab my beer and popcorn...be right back!:D

egontoast
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:13 PM
Bits are not cruel although like anything else they can be used incorrectly..

Do you still use chains on your horses' pasterns to make them pick up their legs over jumps? I looked but I don't see that photo any more on your website.

Tamara in TN
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:15 PM
can you all wait a minute while I grab my beer and popcorn...be right back!:D


get me a St Pauli Girl Dark and a Lemon squeeze...I've gotta go back to the hay barn but save me a seat !!!! :yes::yes:

Tamara in TN

Bogey2
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:16 PM
Will do Tamara....anyone else? eggy?:lol:

yaya
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:18 PM
In clinical studies, it has been proven that the placement of the bit causes the horse to move its tongue for swallowing and this movement prohibits air from entering the lungs.



Well, duuuuh! Horses move their tongues to swallow even without the bit in their mouth. So do you! You can't breathe and swallow at the same time.

This happens so the epiglottis can close so that SALIVA doesn't get in the lungs when swallowing. It is NORMAL and NATURAL.

Apparently YOU need to learn a little more about horse health.

egontoast
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:19 PM
oops my apologies . I was wrong. The photo of the good pastor and his kinder approach to riding is still up on the articles page

//http://www.supreme-cavalry.com/Press-SB-Articles.htm (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com/Press-SB-Articles.htm)

if that link doesn't work , look for the articles pages

Lancaster9
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:19 PM
I'm with y'all.... and I'll have extra butter on my popcorn please! wheeee!

jaimebaker
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:21 PM
Well, regardless of thinking bits are cruel or anything of the sort (I don't think they are cruel, but can be in the wrong hands (like anything)), I have a hard time wondering why they would NOT allow a bitless bridle???

yaya
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:23 PM
Maybe because the directives say the horse has to show "acceptance of the bit"?

Kinda hard to do if there isn't one.

Bogey2
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:24 PM
ya ya:yes:

ridgeback
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:27 PM
Well he's putting those horses in danger by jumping them, for two reasons clearly riding is not their first talent and the horses jump BAD!!! Don't worry about the FEI and bridles learn a little something about riding and correct form for both the horse and rider...Safety first!!!

Miss-O
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:29 PM
oops my apologies . I was wrong. The photo of the good pastor and his kinder approach to riding is still up on the articles page

//http://www.supreme-cavalry.com/Press-SB-Articles.htm (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com/Press-SB-Articles.htm)

if that link doesn't work , look for the articles pages

LOL that's great. Bits are cruel and abusive and chains aren't in any way shape or form. I don't know whether to use this smilie :lol: or this one :no:

papony
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:30 PM
Now I know that i am easily fooled buuuuut I just watched a bunch of horses fly around the track at Belmont last Saturday with bits in their mouths.....and i could swear they were breathing just fine. but then...what do I know.

Could someone please pass the popcorn?

Where's slc?....this is gonna be good.

egontoast
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:32 PM
Please note that the good reverend sells said bitless bridles.

I think George Morris might agree with you, rev. buck, and help with your cause. I urge you to send him a letter enclosing your jumping photo.

arnika
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:32 PM
Thank you yaya. That's exactly what I thought as soon as I read it!

Renae
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:36 PM
What a huckster!

mrsbwayne
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:38 PM
What's the difference between this bitless and dr. cooks? Or is there a difference? It kinda looks the same.

Sarina

Renae
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:49 PM
What's the difference between this bitless and dr. cooks? Or is there a difference? It kinda looks the same.

Sarina

Dr. Cook's is a style of bitless bridle that involves pressure over the poll just like a gag bridle. Just loked at this guy's site, same gadget. We can't use gag bridles in dressage, this is basically a western side-pull crossed with a gag bridle! I fail to see how vicing the horse's head in this gadget is so much nicer than a direct pressure snaffle bit that acts on 1 part of the horse's face, not its entire head.

mrsbwayne
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:51 PM
Doesn't this one do the same thing, or no? What am I missing?
Sarina

Ghazzu
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:55 PM
And here I was, expecting a rollkur thread...:lol::lol:

pintopiaffe
Jun. 12, 2007, 08:03 PM
Um, is it just me?

Horses don't breathe through their MOUTH. Hence the ping-pong-ball murder stuff.

So... Um...

Oh, nevermind. I've got steak tips and a great salad. Sadly I'm working so no adult beverages.

Equibrit
Jun. 12, 2007, 08:04 PM
I think we should just demand that cutting horses riders use dressage saddles. Maybe team ropers should be using exercise saddles!

melodiousaphony
Jun. 12, 2007, 08:06 PM
Personally, I wouldn't *mind* seeing bitless bridles in dressage, though they seem to go against some of the more basic dressage principles which were established without the consideration of such a thing. Rules and regulations would have to be reworked, standards established, etc.
However, I think that in allowing bitless bridles, wouldn't one have to also allow things like jumping hackamores? Those don't seem to encourage steady contact with the hands at all (I could be wrong, I've never actually used one, and I will admit that experience in that field would be necessary for a fair assessment). It would also seem that if you're going to allow a bitless bridle that works much like a gag does [on the poll] wouldn't you then have to allow actual gag bits? Doesn't seem fair otherwise?

slc2
Jun. 12, 2007, 08:09 PM
Not selling enough of your bitless bridles, eh Spirithorse? Business a little FLAT?


This has to go down in history along side the Magikal Gypsy Vanner thread.

dutchmike
Jun. 12, 2007, 08:12 PM
maybe we can use the chains to improve the lengtenings though:).

What a hypocrite btw the way he rides having a bit is that horse's last thing to worry about.
My advice learn to ride first before coming up with stupid remarks

Equibrit
Jun. 12, 2007, 08:12 PM
The equipment is not suitable for the discipline, and it is not likely that those responsible for defining the discipline would change their guidelines to accommodate some kooks. Why can't these wierdos just bugger off, invent their own "discipline" and leave well established and accepted practices alone.

The Majikal Bitless Treeless Shoeless Dressage Society.

Rusty Stirrup
Jun. 12, 2007, 08:26 PM
"The Majikal Bitless Treeless Shoeless Dressage Society".
You forgot to add:
"The NATURAL Majikal Bitless Treeless Shoeless Dressage Society".

Equibrit
Jun. 12, 2007, 08:26 PM
My Bad!

class
Jun. 12, 2007, 08:35 PM
"The Majikal Bitless Treeless Shoeless Dressage Society".
You forgot to add:
"The NATURAL Majikal Bitless Treeless Shoeless Dressage Society".

you forgot to add:
The CLASSICAL Natural Majikal Bitless Treeless Shoeless Dressage Society

mrsbwayne
Jun. 12, 2007, 08:37 PM
I was just looking on the site, one of them has a bit attached to it. Now I'm REALLY confused.
SW

flshgordon
Jun. 12, 2007, 08:45 PM
oops my apologies . I was wrong. The photo of the good pastor and his kinder approach to riding is still up on the articles page

//http://www.supreme-cavalry.com/Press-SB-Articles.htm (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com/Press-SB-Articles.htm)

if that link doesn't work , look for the articles pages

Someone please remind me that if my horse or I EVER look like that jumping, it will be time to retire (both me AND the horse!) and pick up a new hobby! :eek:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

To the OP: I urge you to send this to George Morris for comment in PH....can't wait to hear his opinions on the spirit bridle....:lol:

Coreene
Jun. 12, 2007, 08:46 PM
I neither smoke nor drink, but threads like this make me all warm and fuzzy for a good old fashioned Tom Collins and a Marlboro Light. :cool:

flshgordon
Jun. 12, 2007, 08:48 PM
MMMMMMMMMMMMMM....pass me a Tom Collins too!

JackSprats Mom
Jun. 12, 2007, 08:50 PM
you forgot to add:
The CLASSICAL Natural Majikal Bitless Treeless Shoeless Dressage Societ

Bah you got it all wrong its the 'Classical, Natural, Majikal Gypsy Vanner Bitless Barefoot (not shoeless!) Dressage Society' of which I would like to add with pride, I'm a member!

melodiousaphony
Jun. 12, 2007, 08:59 PM
If you're going to go "Treeless" just ride bareback.

I will say, it does do a good job of loosening up your upper leg/thigh/hip area to ride bareback *correctly* [read correctly as: horse going forward, coming through, rider not just letting legs go every which way, etc.].

~Freedom~
Jun. 12, 2007, 09:13 PM
Will do Tamara....anyone else? eggy?:lol:

Sh*t move over for me!:)

CDNJumperGirl
Jun. 12, 2007, 09:17 PM
Here for the show, just wait for me to get back with my popcorn!

~Freedom~
Jun. 12, 2007, 09:18 PM
Especially if posting on the wrong diagonal!

Hell not just -2 but at least -4 for this one.


Goes back quietly to the side to munch more popcorn.

QLD
Jun. 12, 2007, 09:20 PM
Who gave him his soap box back that's what I want to know.

This is like Deja Vous, except it really happened....like.....five years ago?

~Freedom~
Jun. 12, 2007, 09:24 PM
**Waves hand in the air**

What is he a reverend of ? :confused:


Rev. E. A. Buck
Equine Physiologist

kkj
Jun. 12, 2007, 09:32 PM
Spirithorse, not for dressage. Acceptance of the bit is a very important part of competitive dressage. I see a place for this thing for trail riding or jumpers or whatever but not dressage. I have ridden a few horses in hackamores that did not tolerate a bit well for whatever reason- arthritis in the jaw etc and I say whatever works. I don't think bits are cruel nor is this bitless thing. As long as it is used properly and with skill. Chains on the pasterns for jumping, that is archaic and much more likely to get a lot of people screaming abuse.

Laurierace
Jun. 12, 2007, 09:47 PM
Please note that the good reverend sells said bitless bridles.

I think George Morris might agree with you, rev. buck, and help with your cause. I urge you to send him a letter enclosing your jumping photo.

If only I had a drink in hand that remark might have caused my first true keyboard spew!

nhwr
Jun. 12, 2007, 09:48 PM
I haven't been here much lately, but I just have to respond

1) The FEI will never allow a bitless bridle in competition. Nor should they. No bit, no acceptance of bit. No acceptance of said bit, no dressage.

2) Coreene, if you have quit imbibing, lunch at Pascal's won't have the same appeal :winkgrin:

3)QLD , it is deja vu :yes:

I just made some killer guacamole, poured a big ole Carte Blanca with a lime wedge into a frosty mug.

Anyone want some? :)

sweet2lula
Jun. 12, 2007, 09:57 PM
:eek::lol::lol::lol::lol::eek: This is the funniest thread I've seen in a long time. Someone has to call Anky... Do you think she can "Rolkur" bitless?? Now I'm having a giggle fit. Damn it. :winkgrin:

Ghazzu
Jun. 12, 2007, 10:15 PM
"Thy saddle shall be the seat of prayers to me. And though fly without any wings, and conquer without any sword." - Qur'an


FYI, this is *not* from al Qur'an.

FEIwannabe
Jun. 12, 2007, 10:24 PM
Any popcorn left?
I don't seem to have missed too much.

Equa
Jun. 12, 2007, 10:27 PM
Isn't Rev. E.R. Buck the son of the famous troll-baiter Rev. R. S. Buckemoff, and he is surely also brother-in-law of the founder of the Classical Natural Treeless Bitless Shameless Barefoot Knickerless (or is that Nicholas?) society - Rev E. M. Upp?

dutchmike
Jun. 12, 2007, 10:28 PM
It looks like the rev. has left the building:D

pintopiaffe
Jun. 12, 2007, 10:39 PM
OK, but wait,

No, really.

Horses can't BREATHE through their MOUTH... so... the ENTIRE premise...

Nevermind again. I can't imbibe. Just not as much fun without the Tom Collins.

WindsongEq
Jun. 12, 2007, 11:29 PM
oops my apologies . I was wrong. The photo of the good pastor and his kinder approach to riding is still up on the articles page

//http://www.supreme-cavalry.com/Press-SB-Articles.htm (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com/Press-SB-Articles.htm)

if that link doesn't work , look for the articles pages
I think it is funny Rev Buck has a problem with a bit, but no problem using a martingale.... Umm doesn't that device restrict the natural ocillation of the horse's neck? Wait, I think he has a girth attached to his saddle, doesn't that restrict how much oxygen is able to fill the horse's LUNGS??? Scoot over on the couch and share the popcorn!! (I brought some blended margaritas with me)

Picasso
Jun. 12, 2007, 11:48 PM
So...is this the part where we point out the reason saddles have trees?

just askin'


(I've got some nachos and a pretty decent merlot, can I come sit on the couch? I am just developing my dressage skills on my Majikal Gypsy Vanner, oh damn, he's a Paint. Sorry about that...no wonder its been so difficult....)

silvia
Jun. 12, 2007, 11:54 PM
Well, duuuuh! Horses move their tongues to swallow even without the bit in their mouth. So do you! You can't breathe and swallow at the same time.

This happens so the epiglottis can close so that SALIVA doesn't get in the lungs when swallowing. It is NORMAL and NATURAL.

Apparently YOU need to learn a little more about horse health.

Horses don't breathe through their mouth.

edit: should have finished reading the thread before posting :)

meteormabes
Jun. 12, 2007, 11:58 PM
Well he's putting those horses in danger by jumping them, for two reasons clearly riding is not their first talent and the horses jump BAD!!! Don't worry about the FEI and bridles learn a little something about riding and correct form for both the horse and rider...Safety first!!!

I am in complete agreeance here!!! the rider is lucky he didn't fall off.

Given that acceptance of the bit is a key component of the collective scores there is no chance in h*ll of the FEI allowing bitless bridles!!! Rather riders need to learn to be forgiving with their hands and use the correct bit for their horse depending on the horses mouth structure and how responsive the horse is in the mouth! Bitless bridles will ruin the classical art of dressage, because with out a bit it is very difficult to contain impulsion and generate energy and elevation??? you can't, all that power will just go out the front door, thus you will have a running horse on the forehand!!!

Bitless bridles have no place in dressage...learn to select the right bit for starters then learn how to use it correctly with quiet, still and soft hands!!!!

Where's my beer and popcorn??? would be good!!!

Ghazzu
Jun. 13, 2007, 12:38 AM
Minor point--even though horses don't breathe through their mouths, they still don't breathe and swallow at the same time.
No one does.

wishes4horses
Jun. 13, 2007, 01:06 AM
Aaaw, what kind of troll just leaves before the train even gets rolling? Here I saw three pages and thought there'd be a good flame war by now. :no: Oh well.

lstevenson
Jun. 13, 2007, 01:12 AM
Maybe because the directives say the horse has to show "acceptance of the bit"?

Kinda hard to do if there isn't one.


This sums it up right here. :yes:

What a joke. Hackamores and bitless bridles are no less severe than a bit. They just work differently, using very sensitive pressure points on the horse's head.

Sabine
Jun. 13, 2007, 02:40 AM
Oh how wonderful that all can unite behind the bitless bridle....someone volunteer for a barefoot thread...?? comeon- never saw that much unity amongst us...it's almost boring- and I just got in....:(

Lancaster9
Jun. 13, 2007, 04:52 AM
How does the saying go - the enemy of my enemy is my friend? Kinda makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside to see such harmony on the COTH dressage board of all places! All that popcorn wasted, but perhaps there's hope for planet earth after all. (Put this down to it being too early in the morning but I just had an absurd vision of all the usual COTH suspects joining hands in a rousing chorus of 'I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing...'). What's happening to the world???! :confused:

belambi
Jun. 13, 2007, 05:17 AM
holly cr@p..... please americans.. someone who makes president Bush look sane!!

http://commonman.info/

Chains on legs donot tie in well with this quote
'Rev. Buck's creation and passion for freedom for horses'

and why did the us gov steal the patent of the bitless bridle?

Ponyclubrocks
Jun. 13, 2007, 09:32 AM
Wow, thanks ….
I’ve been sitting here in and excruciatingly boring meeting and surreptitiously reading the BB struggling not to burst out laughing….thanks for saving my sanity with this insanity….
:lol:

HighFlyinBey++
Jun. 13, 2007, 09:48 AM
and why did the us gov steal the patent of the bitless bridle?

Is that what they stole? Here I was thinking he'd invented the Pasta Pot...

slc2
Jun. 13, 2007, 09:53 AM
i would never put a bitless bridle on my horse, they are far too harsh.

pophorse
Jun. 13, 2007, 10:10 AM
wow this gentleman is certainly a character!
have you read his bio?
Posts like his are great fun!:lol:
I think he should be careful, it seems like a thinly veiled attempt at advertising his "wonder" bridle.....:no:
By the way I second the motion to submit the jumping photo for Mr. Morris' critique!

Pony Fixer
Jun. 13, 2007, 10:15 AM
How did I miss THIS???

Of course, it's AM, I just had a cracked tooth fixed last night, so no popcorn, no beer.

Yet.

See ya tonite!

yaya
Jun. 13, 2007, 10:25 AM
Horses don't breathe through their mouth.

edit: should have finished reading the thread before posting :)


I NEVER said horses breathe through their mouths. Horses are obligate nose-breathers.

But in order to swallow, they must move their tongues and close the epiglottis so that saliva goes down the esophagus, not the trachea. This happens with or without a bit in the mouth. The bit does not cause the tongue movement, and of course air can't get into the lungs when the epiglottis is closed - that's the point, to close off the lungs so saliva, food, whatever, goes down the "correct pipe".

Try it yourself - you must stop breathing in order to swallow. Doesn't mean you are breathing through your mouth.

Kimberlee
Jun. 13, 2007, 10:36 AM
I find it interesting that he doesn't condone bits as they are harsh, but then on his website he shows where his bridle is now accepted by the Kentucky Racing board.

If you are against bits, wouldn't you be against horse racing?

angel
Jun. 13, 2007, 12:12 PM
I think that what was meant to be said was that because the bit is being used today in such a fashion that excess salivation is produced, the horse has a need to swallow more often which means the airway is closed off more often than otherwise.

A bitless bridle is no more severe than the fashion in which bits are used by many riders today. The horses are pulled to a faxsimilee of contact, rather than stretched to the contact. They are ridden overbent, which again in turn, makes swallowing more difficult as the throat is already restricted then. While the horse is a nose-breather, the airway from the back of the nose to the lungs is the throat. Any restriction to the throat, also restricts the degree of air that can reach the lungs. So now you have the twin problems of a more restricted throat area, plus the greater frequency of needing to close it off so the horse can swallow.

While I would never choose to show in a bitless bridle, I think that if a horse has a medical reason, it should be permited. There are horses who have had serious mouth/tongue injuries who cannot be ridden in a bit. The true demonstration of the intention of the "acceptance of the bit" can really be determined by a judge who knows what the resulting reflex of the horse should be when stretching correctly. Apparently, that is lost on many judges, however, as there seems to be no longer a punishment for overbent horses in the shows.

monstrpony
Jun. 13, 2007, 12:58 PM
If you are against bits, wouldn't you be against horse racing?

Only if you're also against money.

Glad to find a good cause for the left-over margaritas in the freezer that my weekend house guests didn't finish.

Tiki
Jun. 13, 2007, 03:06 PM
As noted, what does he think the epiglottis is for?

A bit is cruel, but it's OK to crank your horse's head down with a martingale?

The 'new' jumping style as presented by this 'horseman' is to overjump your horse, with your heels up, your hands and reins in your crotch and a scared look on the face of your horse - who is hanging his legs - over a what? 18" - 2' jump?

I found on the home page that he called that jump "Supreme Performance
through Supreme Freedom" WTF???????

caffeinated
Jun. 13, 2007, 03:32 PM
What's the difference between this bitless and dr. cooks? Or is there a difference? It kinda looks the same.

Sarina

DUH! It's right there in the FAQ (http://www.bitlessspiritbridle.com/FAQ.htm)!!!

this one is more "efficient!!!" because... because... um, help me out here people...

It's more efficient because it's a magickal space-age material that has unique heat conduction properties that allow the electrical energy from your hands to move all the way to the horse's head with no diminishment in power!!!! Sounds good, think I'll buy one...

Anselcat
Jun. 13, 2007, 03:59 PM
From FAQ:
Yes, the Spirit Bridle stops a horse. It is so efficient that it is recognized for horse racing. To stop a horse who is trying to run off, the rider needs only to shake the head and then hold.
Whaa... shake my head? Then hold what? My breath?
(another example of the importance of grammar)

And I never realized jockeys are trying to STOP racehorses

Bronte
Jun. 13, 2007, 04:19 PM
From FAQ:
Yes, the Spirit Bridle stops a horse. It is so efficient that it is recognized for horse racing. To stop a horse who is trying to run off, the rider needs only to shake the head and then hold.
Whaa... shake my head? Then hold what? My breath?
(another example of the importance of grammar)

And I never realized jockeys are trying to STOP racehorses

Okay, I was smirking, but now I am cracking up.......... And I have cracked ribs and it hurts. Time to self medicate, whiskey if you please!:winkgrin:

Eq3nStar
Jun. 13, 2007, 05:09 PM
Quote from his bio: "The third design came because Buck found out that the rein connections outside the headstall created a dead space where the rider had no contact with the horse, which could and did result in the horse being able to momentarily getting out of control." :eek::lol: Gee, giving his clearly superior riding skills... :rolleyes:

appychik
Jun. 13, 2007, 05:38 PM
I agree with most of you who've posted. I don't think that the USDF (or any dressage regulations for that matter) would allow a bitless bridle. The point of dressage is to, among other things, have a horse that is on the bit and accepting of contact. It's that what we're working so hard towards?

On the other side of things, I have worked my horse occassionally in a hackmore. True, usually we are out trail riding or what not, but I can still get some good response from the hack. IMO, it's a good idea to change things up from time to time - least it works for my horse. If I'm always using the same bit, he tends to think when we're out galloping, he can always "gallop" around the arena when we're practice our test. So, therefore, I have different tack for our different training sessions. (Not sure if that made any sense).

But, joining everyone else, I love popcorn - with extra butter and some salt. And a cherry coke please :D

melodiousaphony
Jun. 13, 2007, 07:30 PM
A bitless bridle is no more severe than the fashion in which bits are used by many riders today. The horses are pulled to a faxsimilee of contact, rather than stretched to the contact. They are ridden overbent, which again in turn, makes swallowing more difficult as the throat is already restricted then. While the horse is a nose-breather, the airway from the back of the nose to the lungs is the throat. Any restriction to the throat, also restricts the degree of air that can reach the lungs. So now you have the twin problems of a more restricted throat area, plus the greater frequency of needing to close it off so the horse can swallow.

Thank you for writing a thoughtful reply in this thread. With everyone going and getting food, I was wondering how the discussion worth watching/reading would progress!

It makes sense that bitless bridles not be allowed in FEI competition given the premise of dressage, I agree. I just wonder if there is a bitless system that could be used appropriately for dressage. One where there could be a light contact _somewhere_ for a horse to submit too and maintain. The one developed by the OP, as I'm not sure how crossing two lines that tighten under a horse's jaw is any "kinder" than putting metal in its mouth; seems worse actually.

[On another topic, I am trying to figure out where my sig. line is _actually_ from, as I like the premise. Who'd of thought that Google would lie ;)].

JSwan
Jun. 13, 2007, 08:49 PM
Seems odd that the FEI isn't concerned about the health of horses - considering the Amy Tryon case.

Maybe the folks who decided the bitless bridle was a no go didn't get the memo about Amy.

I don't think chains on pasterns are a good idea - I prefer to use thumbtacks on the poles, and sharp spurs. That really wakes 'em up. :rolleyes:

Half Halt
Jun. 13, 2007, 09:03 PM
After reading all this I'm concerned when I work my horse in the double tomarrow, he will drop dead due to lack of air!

slc2
Jun. 14, 2007, 12:05 PM
Hasn't he yet? According to the wisdom, it should suffocate him outright. Please keep us posted.

no, i feel the bitless bridles are extremely harsh. for gentle, i prefer a bit.

this is like saying it's 'gentle' to use a wire in the horse's mouth instead of a bit. it's so little and thin, it can't do much, right?

luvs2ride79
Jun. 14, 2007, 12:12 PM
oops my apologies . I was wrong. The photo of the good pastor and his kinder approach to riding is still up on the articles page

//http://www.supreme-cavalry.com/Press-SB-Articles.htm (http://www.supreme-cavalry.com/Press-SB-Articles.htm)

if that link doesn't work , look for the articles pages

Ugh, this guys drives me batty! And, excuse me, but what is NATURAL about jumping with a running martingale?, bit or no bit!? It seems our good doctor-reverened-deacon-brother is the personification of "oxymoron"...

And you know, I really do like bitless bridles. I have a REAL one, made by Dr Cook, http://www.bitlessbridle.com I use it for trail riding and hacking, though I still use my "cruel" bit for training and showing :winkgrin:.

luvs2ride79
Jun. 14, 2007, 12:22 PM
Dr. Cook's is a style of bitless bridle that involves pressure over the poll just like a gag bridle. Just loked at this guy's site, same gadget. We can't use gag bridles in dressage, this is basically a western side-pull crossed with a gag bridle! I fail to see how vicing the horse's head in this gadget is so much nicer than a direct pressure snaffle bit that acts on 1 part of the horse's face, not its entire head.

The argument is that you spread the pressure out over more area, and you need less pressure. My mare seems to really like hers (the Dr Cooks bridle) even when I put young kids and beginners on her that hang all over the bridle. If she was in a bit, she would toss her head, and possibly the rider, lol. She has a very sensitive mouth, and I like to keep it that way, hence the bitless for those who aren't the best riders.

spirithorse
Jun. 14, 2007, 12:25 PM
Wow, what a rucus I have caused...

As for the chains...they are used exremely sparingly on any horse who does not pick up the front feet...not for jumping...only schooling...

The martingale has an actual function in which it teaches the horse to keep its poll down...and is actually loose...and will not interfere with a horse's ability to jump...

The Cook bridle is my "original" 1988 design with operational flaws...

The Spirit Bridle 'DOES NOT' act like a gag bridle...primarily because the greatest percentage of contact is at the poll through the reins and there is not a constriction around the nose band...

Horses who have no bit in the mouth actually rarely move the tongue, so there is little to no interference with air flow...that is why the State of Kentucky approved it for racing.

caffeinated
Jun. 14, 2007, 12:30 PM
Heh. I looked up your profile and found that when I looked for your posts, every single one that came up came from a locked thread.

Coincidence?

And, um, a little birdie told me that gag bits work on *gasp* poll pressure, which is what makes them so different from snaffles. Amazing.

And I don't get how someone concerned with being natural and nice to horses would use ankle chains and running martingales "to get the poll down"

Does not compute. Perhaps I need to have some more coffee, to wake up the grey cells.

How's the presidential campaign going, anyway?

egontoast
Jun. 14, 2007, 12:33 PM
As for the chains...they are used exremely sparingly on any horse who does not pick up the front feet...not for jumping...only schooling...

The martingale has an actual function in which it teaches the horse to keep its poll down...and is actually loose...and will not interfere with a horse's ability to jump...

The Cook bridle is my "original" 1988 design with operational flaws...




The photo on your website shows you jumping your grey horse with chains on the fetlocks and with a martingale so would you like to revise that statement? Please get some professional help in all matters equestrian and psychologicAL.


Google finds your legal action against Dr Cook and the US gov't which was dismissed I think. Is there a court decision which supports your allegations? Please link.

Ghazzu
Jun. 14, 2007, 12:36 PM
Wow, what a rucus I have caused...

As for the chains...they are used exremely sparingly on any horse who does not pick up the front feet...not for jumping...only schooling...


And yet the photo shows a horse jumping in chains...



The martingale has an actual function in which it teaches the horse to keep its poll down...and is actually loose...and will not interfere with a horse's ability to jump...


Unlike the rider's deathgrip...

slc2
Jun. 14, 2007, 01:22 PM
it's nice to get away from my volunteer work from time to time, yet still feel like i'm close to it. the spirit bridle website allows me to do that. thanks, dr buck.

Dirigo
Jun. 14, 2007, 01:37 PM
Yikes, I just saw this thread
only read the first page, but already cracking up laughing.
THANK GOD the FEI didn't approve bitless dressage... just asking about It could make us the laughing stock of the world.
"Kudos to the FEI"

now please, someone hand me some popcorn and a beer please *grins and gets comfortable *

Darth Dirigo
one of the founders of the EDRF

petitefilly
Jun. 14, 2007, 01:53 PM
Oh-fiddle faddle. Why worry about the bit, when you throw away the whole bridle and be bridle-less? I see a future in doing dressage like Lynn Plam on old Rugged Lark (may he rest in peace), everyone thinks it's great. Alas, it would put we mere mortals at a stalemate, crap, how would be able to put all those bling browbands to use? I mean-golly-bridle-less-bitless-dressage would be downright *inhibiting*.

Dirigo
Jun. 14, 2007, 01:57 PM
Hay, why not saddle less, shoe less, grain less as well?
I think I'm onto something here ... *wink*

caffeinated
Jun. 14, 2007, 01:57 PM
Oh-fiddle faddle. Why worry about the bit, when you throw away the whole bridle and be bridle-less? I see a future in doing dressage like Lynn Plam on old Rugged Lark (may he rest in peace), everyone thinks it's great. Alas, it would put we mere mortals at a stalemate, crap, how would be able to put all those bling browbands to use? I mean-golly-bridle-less-bitless-dressage would be downright *inhibiting*.

I think we should take it a step further and show in the nude.

Dirigo
Jun. 14, 2007, 02:00 PM
LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!

CAJumper
Jun. 14, 2007, 02:21 PM
As for the chains...they are used exremely sparingly on any horse who does not pick up the front feet...not for jumping...only schooling...

:eek: Ummm...the photo shows the horse jumping with CHAINS AROUND ITS FEET??? :eek: Besides, there's no way the horse could possibly pick up its legs over that tiny fence with the rider jumping up its neck and catching it in the mouth...errrr...nose.


The martingale has an actual function in which it teaches the horse to keep its poll down

Ummm...no it doesn't (and I use one...but that's not what it's for!).


...and is actually loose

...no, it actually isn't. It's really, really tightly adjusted.


...and will not interfere with a horse's ability to jump...

When it's improperly adjusted, such as in that photo, it will.

Wow. :no:

MyReality
Jun. 14, 2007, 02:40 PM
Most interestingly, I was at a horse show, where a gentleman is demonstrating the bitless birdle. The horse reared and flipped over. Now this mare has issues, so I don't mean to say bitless bridle caused her problem. But definitely, it is not kinder or less severe than a bit.

ania
Jun. 14, 2007, 02:45 PM
I think we should take it a step further and show in the nude.

How many would prefer that to wearing white breeches??
A show of hands please? :D

hitchinmygetalong
Jun. 14, 2007, 03:00 PM
Wow, what a rucus I have caused...

As for the chains...they are used exremely sparingly on any horse who does not pick up the front feet...not for jumping...only schooling...

The martingale has an actual function in which it teaches the horse to keep its poll down...and is actually loose...and will not interfere with a horse's ability to jump...



Well, the photo on your website of the grey jumping wearing chains and the martingale shows it is neither picking up its front feet NOR lowering its poll, so I guess you can just toss those training "techniques".

If you have that much faith in your product, for crying out loud show it WORKING as you say it does. Until then, well, I'll stick with my french link loose ring, thank you very much.

Grintle Sunshine
Jun. 14, 2007, 03:04 PM
Did anyone see the horse jumping on this page? :eek:

http://www.supreme-cavalry.com/

Livie
Jun. 14, 2007, 03:10 PM
The funniest thing about the animation of the grey jumping on the enter page is it's not from the same sequence. The jump standards go from about to topple over to perfectly straight. I wonder how many tries it took to get the series of pics?

Guyot
Jun. 14, 2007, 03:21 PM
Something funny about that photo sequence...the left standard is leaning over in the first two clips but is perfectly straight in the third! Seems there could have been some "artistic" licence?

I'm not saying that I know anything about whats going on here, as there is obviously a history!:lol:

But it appears to me at first glance that these are race people trying to understand performance horses, and not getting it. The jumping photo of the grey horse with chains is being ridden in a race saddle...and jockeys ride on their toes, soooo...I'm confused all the way round. :confused:

Guyot
Jun. 14, 2007, 03:31 PM
I just went and scanned the text for that page...they are offering PT work and training for their clients! As there are NO Equine PT degrees available in this country, the USA, and to do PT work you have to have a degree and soon a masters! They are illegally representing themselves! The only two countries that I know of that offer Equine Physical Therapy are England and Australia. So unless they went there and have their degree to back up their advertising what they are saying is not possible!

Grintle Sunshine
Jun. 14, 2007, 03:36 PM
The martingale has an actual function in which it teaches the horse to keep its poll down...and is actually loose...and will not interfere with a horse's ability to jump...



A running martingale is not a tool to teach a horse to keep it's poll down. FYI, the rings on the martingale should be able to reach one hand's width from the top of the horses crest. Yours are adjusted way too short.

To get flexion at the poll, you might try using.........a bit! :lol:

JSwan
Jun. 14, 2007, 03:45 PM
How 'bout brain less?

For the OP -regarding running martingales - I'm not quite sure you got that right. I wasn't taught that - but hey - I admit to not being any sort of expert.

However, I was taught that a horse is more likely to pick his feet up over a jump if you're not leaning on his shoulders and hauling his nose to his chest - bit or no bit. You may want to work on fixing that instead of using pastern chains.

But hey - that's just me.


Hay, why not saddle less, shoe less, grain less as well?
I think I'm onto something here ... *wink*

Lancaster9
Jun. 14, 2007, 03:52 PM
I think we should take it a step further and show in the nude.
:lol::lol::lol::lol:
Is that what they call Au-Naturale Horsemanship?! In the interest of the rider's welfare I think we should ban white breeches. Perhaps we should approach the FEI on this?

Ilex
Jun. 14, 2007, 04:08 PM
I just went and scanned the text for that page...they are offering PT work and training for their clients! As there are NO Equine PT degrees available in this country, the USA, and to do PT work you have to have a degree and soon a masters! They are illegally representing themselves! The only two countries that I know of that offer Equine Physical Therapy are England and Australia. So unless they went there and have their degree to back up their advertising what they are saying is not possible!

Sorry to hijack this thread.......BUT.........

Could a person go to the UK....get an Equine PT Degree....and set up shop in the USA. What governing body would they be licensed though in the USA?

Thanks...Tami

dressage is for lovers
Jun. 14, 2007, 04:33 PM
I like how he has a "Sponsors" page with NO sponsors.

kaluha2
Jun. 14, 2007, 04:49 PM
I do hope this finally puts all the nonsense about dressage in a bitless bridle to rest for crying out loud.

Your hero is an idiot.

Equibrit
Jun. 14, 2007, 08:06 PM
A political idiot (http://commonman.info/)



Wow, what a rucus I have caused...



Well - no. Actually more a target of derision and general hilarity.

But - you will maintain your "Majikal" happiness if you are oblivious to the difference.

FEIwannabe
Jun. 14, 2007, 08:35 PM
How many would prefer that to wearing white breeches??
A show of hands please? :DWell, for me the color on my legs would be about the same :eek:

Pony Fixer
Jun. 14, 2007, 08:36 PM
BTW, as luck would have it, I am NOT a common man.

Coup De Des
Jun. 15, 2007, 05:00 AM
Did I miss it?


.............aw shucks.

Bogey2
Jun. 15, 2007, 07:14 PM
well, if we go braless, bitless and pantyless and we will certainly improve the t.v. coverage of our sport!


As for the chains...they are used exremely sparingly on any horse who does not pick up the front feet...not for jumping...only schooling
not for jumping...only schooling. Schooling over a jump is not the same as jumping?

What the Buck are you saying?

Candle
Jun. 15, 2007, 07:42 PM
Dear Mr. Reverend Buck U.,
Thank you ever so much for this thread. I was in quite a foul mood earlier when I, completely by chance, happened to open this thread. I feel that it was the Lord's work that put me on the Dressage board in the first place, since I do not normally read it. Obviously, some directive from above led me to your website.

I was going to go out and try to do some retail therapy to help cheer myself up, but you have provided the best free entertainment I have seen in days. I have to admit, you are in close competition with the Expert Horsewoman for being the funniest thing I've seen in weeks, but you had me laughing so hard I had tears running down my face at your double and triple talk, senseless explanations, and truly priceless pictures.

Candle
Jun. 15, 2007, 07:45 PM
I vote that the FEI make panties mandatory for all nude international competitions. We could bling our underwear while skyrocketing our sponsorship and viewing audience. Those beer-commercial-jumping-on-bed-nude-girls ain't got NOTHING on bra-less sitting extended trot across the diagonal :eek: :yes: I think we're on to something here. It sounds less painful than stuffing myself into white breeches at least :yes:

Coreene
Jun. 15, 2007, 08:01 PM
Dear Mr. Reverend Buck U.:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Tamara in TN
Jun. 15, 2007, 08:31 PM
Those beer-commercial-jumping-on-bed-nude-girls ain't got NOTHING on bra-less sitting extended trot across the diagonal :eek: :yes: I think we're on to something here. It sounds less painful than stuffing myself into white breeches at least :yes:

I'd prefer a brawy,ripped ab,dark headed male dancer type, down the LONG side in a DEEP,SITTING,FULL CONTACT,BUCK NEEKID TROT .......:yes::yes:

(((oh lord...I just flustered myself just talking about it...I'm gonna have find chair and some smelling salts) :lol::lol:

Tamara in TN

Guyot
Jun. 15, 2007, 08:43 PM
You can get a PT degree in another country but you are bound by the PT rules in this country. Basically you have to have a PT degree for humans here then you get your Equine/Canine Masters in PT. Since there are no guidelines for Equine/Canine you are bound by the human PT laws. For example, a PT cannot work on your horse if you do not have a diagnosis from a vet, etc.




Sorry to hijack this thread.......BUT.........

Could a person go to the UK....get an Equine PT Degree....and set up shop in the USA. What governing body would they be licensed though in the USA?

Thanks...Tami

Candle
Jun. 16, 2007, 06:43 AM
I'd prefer a brawy,ripped ab,dark headed male dancer type, down the LONG side in a DEEP,SITTING,FULL CONTACT,BUCK NEEKID TROT .......:yes::yes:

(((oh lord...I just flustered myself just talking about it...I'm gonna have find chair and some smelling salts) :lol::lol:

Tamara in TN

:lol::lol::lol: I'm not going to share how I'd divide the classes up. It would give in-hand classes a whole new meaning :winkgrin:

Tamara in TN
Jun. 16, 2007, 09:43 AM
:lol::lol::lol: I'm not going to share how I'd divide the classes up. It would give in-hand classes a whole new meaning :winkgrin:


AAAAAAAACCCCCCKKKK !!!!!!!!!! oh my.... but where would one hang the ribbons ???? :lol::lol::lol::eek::eek:

Tamara in TN

Brady'smom
Jun. 16, 2007, 12:24 PM
****SQUEEEEEEEEEAL*****!!!!

Too buck-in funny!!!

looseringsnaffle
Jun. 16, 2007, 07:37 PM
How many would prefer that to wearing white breeches??
A show of hands please? :D

...only if there's collective marks for Bouncing. :lol:



However, I was taught that a horse is more likely to pick his feet up over a jump if you're not leaning on his shoulders and hauling his nose to his chest - bit or no bit. You may want to work on fixing that instead of using pastern chains. [my own emphasis added]

But that would be so CRUEL!

NoDQhere
Jun. 16, 2007, 07:38 PM
AAAAAAAACCCCCCKKKK !!!!!!!!!! oh my.... but where would one hang the ribbons ???? :lol::lol::lol::eek::eek:

Tamara in TN

Where indeed????????:eek::eek::eek::eek:

EasyStreet
Jun. 16, 2007, 11:16 PM
Dear Mr. Reverend Buck U.,
Thank you ever so much for this thread. I was in quite a foul mood earlier when I, completely by chance, happened to open this thread. I feel that it was the Lord's work that put me on the Dressage board in the first place, since I do not normally read it. Obviously, some directive from above led me to your website.

I was going to go out and try to do some retail therapy to help cheer myself up, but you have provided the best free entertainment I have seen in days. I have to admit, you are in close competition with the Expert Horsewoman for being the funniest thing I've seen in weeks, but you had me laughing so hard I had tears running down my face at your double and triple talk, senseless explanations, and truly priceless pictures.

Bravo Candle,:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: And those pastern chains are right up there with those who put CARPET TACKS on their jump poles1:eek::eek::eek: