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onthegrd
Jun. 10, 2007, 07:47 AM
Okay all what do you think? I got reprimmanded for using my stick 4 times at a fence! I went to an event in VA this weekend with my green 6 year old. We were coming to a drop and I just started tapping (not hitting!) with my stick just to encourage him along.
Next think I'm being called to the secretary stand!
Let me just say this. I am a card carrying member of Peta. I have been in animal rescue, welfare all my life. I support a dozen local and national humane organizations. I work/exist for the benefit of my dogs, cats and horse. My will is already set up so they are cared for. So, to have some snot nosed fence judge, who probably eats meat, owns an unspayed cat or dog, worse yet buys a purebred instead of rescuing from a kill-shelter, accuse me of abuse just burns.
It ain't eventing like it use to be.:cry:

JSwan
Jun. 10, 2007, 07:59 AM
I think that you're being a pretty bad sport about it.

You were accused of excessive use of the whip - and you admit you did it.

Then you try and justify it by saying that you are a better person than every one else.

If you really were a card carrying member of PeTa - you wouldn't be eventing anyway.

But you're right - eventing ain't what it used to be. It used to include sportsmanship.

yellowbritches
Jun. 10, 2007, 08:02 AM
Yikes. First off, the snot nosed judge spent their weekend day VOLUNTEERING so that you could get the chance to ride in an event. Most likely they were a friend or a family member of another rider who knows nothing about eventing and took the three hit maximum they heard about in the fence judge briefing to the letter of the law. They were doing their job, and while you were riding they way you needed to on the green horse, they may just not know that their is a difference between encouraging, forward riding, and beating the crap out of the horse. Life goes on, it was just one of those things.

What was the outcome of getting called to the secretary stand? A talk? Elimination? A fine?

enjoytheride
Jun. 10, 2007, 08:03 AM
Guys, TROLL.

Pandarus33
Jun. 10, 2007, 08:12 AM
The rules are THREE uses of the stick and can't be in front of the shoulder. You went to four. Whether it was just tapping or full-out wallop, you broke the rules. Good for the jump judge to report you and not let you get away with breaking the rules. Who do you think you are that the rules don't apply to you?

Your punishment should be volunteering for the next event, not riding. That's volunteering all day, not just a few hours- preferably in rotten weather conditions, too. Oh, and you get a boring jump- no water or dditch and it's way out in the woods or somewhere that you have little to no contact with anyone. Volunteers don't need to get crap like this from people like you. In fact, people like you are why some people no longer volunteer. Without volunteers, events shut down and many have already.

I've volunteered at every event for one facility and know exactly how much effort it takes to sit there for hours with no excitement whatsoever. I do it because I love and support the sport even though I haven't competed in six years and barely ride my own horse so that my students can use her experience.

Where'sMyWhite
Jun. 10, 2007, 08:14 AM
I have been one of those snot nosed judges, albeit one that does know something about horses and eventing... (let's see... last Saturday, first horse on course at 7:30am, last horse on course at about 4:44pm; 5 divisions with a 20 minute break between divisions to get to the next jump; horses starting every 2 minutes at the lower divisions, 3 minutes at the higher divisons; over 200 horses; "payment" was lunch brought out on the course... don't call me snot nosed).

Frankly, I don't even watch or count whip hits (actually most briefings I've been to don't even mention whip hits). But, before the the "hit" would show up on my radar screen, it would have to be more than a tap, for sure. I'm too busy watching the rider and the horse and the horse's feet to notice a tap with the whip. I'm really wondering what your definition of a tap with the whip is?

AppJumpr08
Jun. 10, 2007, 08:29 AM
Sorry troll, I'm all out of troll food... it fell out of my pockets yesterday when I flipped my horse during his weekly flipping session.

flutie1
Jun. 10, 2007, 09:21 AM
"... snot nosed fence judge,"

Any sympathy I may have had - and I emphasize MAY have had - flew out the window when you referred to a volunteer as "{snot nosed." Yep, eventing isn't what it used to be - and it's people like you who have made it worse.
Grow up.

onthegrd
Jun. 10, 2007, 09:52 AM
just to clear up. i didn't use the stick on the shoulder. used it behind my leg.
i totally appologize for the snot nose remark. i was angry in the moment. volunteers ( and i do my share) make the sport happen and are much appreciated.
i am letting it go, but things like this really make me stop and think whether it is time to move away from eventing.

deltawave
Jun. 10, 2007, 10:16 AM
If one is going to participate in the sport, one is expected to know the rules. The rules permit THREE taps, not FOUR. You violated a rule, and that is simply the end of it. Dragging in your personal beliefs really is beside the point and serves only to completely ruin your credibility and any hint of good sportsmanship.

Looked at another way, it indicates the fence judge was well-versed in the rules and did exactly what he/she was asked and expected to do. Why complain?

As to card-carrying member of PETA--doesn't riding a horse sort of violate their premises, much less "making" it jump? :uhoh: And if you wish to appeal to the sympathies of this meat-eating, purebred-owning fellow rider, well, you didn't. You're entitled to your viewpoints just as I am, but they don't excuse you from abiding by the same rule book as I do.

BarbB
Jun. 10, 2007, 10:45 AM
Gosh, DW, she is just venting. She has already apologised for the dig at the jump judge. She just wanted to blow off a little steam, and perhaps she was hoping that this would be a good place to do it. I guess not. She forgot to ask if the color of her whip matched her saddle pad well enough.

I thought it was a little over the top.
Especially the purebred dog comment. :rolleyes:

Eventer13
Jun. 10, 2007, 11:12 AM
As to card-carrying member of PETA--doesn't riding a horse sort of violate their premises, much less "making" it jump? :uhoh:

This surprised me too.. I'd think a Peta member, if they did ride, would just go on the trail or do natural horsemanship. Eventing, and racing, seem to be exactly what peta would love to ban. Since we eventers love to flip our horses and all.

pwynnnorman
Jun. 10, 2007, 11:18 AM
I think she's right that things have changed and also think that this points out how we have to accept (and encourage) judges, TDs, riders, organizers, whoever, to always, always err on the side of caution.

Rule in favor of the horse: the take-home message of eventing and public perception today.

Elghund2
Jun. 10, 2007, 12:09 PM
"i am letting it go, but things like this really make me stop and think whether it is time to move away from eventing."

That comment makes the apology pretty insincere. As others pointed out the jump judge knew the rules and enforced them. So there is no reason to complain.

Yesterday at Rubicon, a competitor was eliminated after four refusals. The judge flagged the rider told her she was eliminated and that she needed to walk off the course. The competitor asked if she could jump the jump anyway. The judge told her no and she jumped the jump anyway.

The jump judge asked me what she should do and I told her to call the TD.

The rules are there for a reason and getting pissy with the people that enforce them is flat out wrong.

CarrieK
Jun. 10, 2007, 01:59 PM
She just wanted to blow off a little steam, and perhaps she was hoping that this would be a good place to do it. I guess not.
Nah, you're wrong. This is the place to blow off steam.

However, this isn't the place for trotting out the morality resume to excuse a step over the line, as you can tell by all the responses.

jaimebaker
Jun. 10, 2007, 02:15 PM
"i am letting it go, but things like this really make me stop and think whether it is time to move away from eventing."

That comment makes the apology pretty insincere. As others pointed out the jump judge knew the rules and enforced them. So there is no reason to complain.

Yesterday at Rubicon, a competitor was eliminated after four refusals. The judge flagged the rider told her she was eliminated and that she needed to walk off the course. The competitor asked if she could jump the jump anyway. The judge told her no and she jumped the jump anyway.

The jump judge asked me what she should do and I told her to call the TD.

The rules are there for a reason and getting pissy with the people that enforce them is flat out wrong.



I know nothing about jumping so this is a question from sheer lack of knowledge. I understand the disrespect shown by her jumping anyway after the judge told her no. But as a competitor, would you not want to insist your horse jump to prove to him he can't get out of work by refusing?

Again, not wanting to get pounced on, I just seriously don't know:uhoh:

Ghazzu
Jun. 10, 2007, 02:28 PM
I know nothing about jumping so this is a question from sheer lack of knowledge. I understand the disrespect shown by her jumping anyway after the judge told her no. But as a competitor, would you not want to insist your horse jump to prove to him he can't get out of work by refusing?

Again, not wanting to get pounced on, I just seriously don't know:uhoh:

The rules specify that a competitor who is eliminated must leave the course immediately, at a walk, mounted or unmounted.
It's not entirely a question of "respect" for the fence judge, but of "respect" for the rules.

jaimebaker
Jun. 10, 2007, 02:30 PM
The rules specify that a competitor who is eliminated must leave the course immediately, at a walk, mounted or unmounted.
It's not entirely a question of "respect" for the fence judge, but of "respect" for the rules.

Ahhh, got ya! Thank you.

shea'smom
Jun. 10, 2007, 02:37 PM
isn't the three hit rule for after a stop? I did not think it applied to before a fence.

wabadou
Jun. 10, 2007, 02:51 PM
I know nothing about jumping so this is a question from sheer lack of knowledge. I understand the disrespect shown by her jumping anyway after the judge told her no. But as a competitor, would you not want to insist your horse jump to prove to him he can't get out of work by refusing?

Again, not wanting to get pounced on, I just seriously don't know:uhoh:

As a rider and a competitor, sure I'd want to make the horse jump the jump.
As a long time volunteer, being a jump judge and having the responsibility to keep up with riders coming through every 2 minutes and the possibility of one rider still trying to get over the fence without parting company with the horse when another is coming through, I definitely see it from the other side. I also see it from the side that the event officials have to be concerned with doing everything possible to ensure safety and order in a very high risk and potentially dangerous activity, as well as keeping up with many horses on course simultaneously and trying to keep things running smoothly. If a rider has had 3 refusals already not only due the rules clearly state that they are eliminated but with another horse is on the way, an already potentially dangerous situation is magnified. The officials really do have to draw the line and stand firm to keep order amidst the potential chaos. When things become disorderly and/or disorganized, who are the first to complain?

I just got home from jump judging a morning of cross country at a major event and I got cursed at yesterday on cross country by a rider after I politely asked him to retire after his 3rd refusal. It's times like that, that make me seriously question why I am spending a 12 hour Saturday in the baking sun, sweating like a horse and fighting off insects not to mention times like yesterday when several of us have to cover 2 jumps with 1 person due to a shortage of volunteers. (Jeez, people, we can't even take a potty break without announcing to everyone on the radios WHY we need someone to come stand at our fence for a few minutes, cut us some slack...!!!)

Shortly after, a young lady walking the course smiled at me and thanked me for volunteering. It happens so seldom and when it does, it just makes my day.

Volunteering and "officiating" are often pretty thankless jobs . Next time you want to criticize an official or volunteer for one decision that doesn't sit well with you personally, please keep in mind the hundreds of decisions that they have to make each competition day to keep things running smoothly that are to your benefit.
And take a minute some day to randomly thank a volunteer, I promise you it will make their day :)

deltawave
Jun. 10, 2007, 03:28 PM
I certainly didn't mean to come down hard and nail anyone for venting, but the OP began with "what do you all think?". If she'd left it with the simple statement of facts I would have sympathized a whole lot more. Trotting out the superiority complex/PETA member thing was totally beside the point, IMO, and smacked of "holier than thou" and, well, I am just rubbing everyone the wrong way lately, I guess. :sigh: ;)

One can certainly disagree with and dislike the rules, but one is OBLIGATED to abide by them when one signs that entry form. I was brought up short by the "4 refusal" rule after JUST getting my green horse rolling a few weeks ago and yes, I wish I could've had "just one more try" because the wiggly, not-paying-attention stuff was done and I thought we could have had a good trip the rest of the way. But when they said "you're done" I smiled and said "thank you" because THOSE ARE THE RULES.

Sorry if I've offended. I'm so very tired of the implication that those of us who are not vegans are somehow not animal lovers and that those who ARE are morally superior.

Eventaholic
Jun. 10, 2007, 04:17 PM
As a vegeterian, animal fostering, pet adopting, voulintering at a free feral spay/neuter clinic, Jump Judge; I am rather offended by the OP's comments.

The rules are 3 smacks of the crop/whip/bat (of the appropriate length) per fence are allowed. The jump judge was simply following the rules established by the United States Eventing Assosciation- a group the OP is apparently (?) a member of. Rules which the OP agreed to upon entering this competition.

The rules are put in place for a reason, and the line must be drawn somewhere. This particular rule, in my understanding, is to prevent: any actual abuse of the horse, the horse/rider staying at the fence for too long, a horse who isn't really prepared for the level they're competing from completing the course in a potentialy dangerous fashion (similar reasoning to the new lesser refusals on course rule).

Alsoooo.... most of the time if you ask nicely the jump judge will walkie into the TD (or someone) and ask if you can continue the course. In the event the answer is no, it's not the jump judges fault. Don't shoot the messenger.

Janet
Jun. 10, 2007, 04:24 PM
I know nothing about jumping so this is a question from sheer lack of knowledge. I understand the disrespect shown by her jumping anyway after the judge told her no. But as a competitor, would you not want to insist your horse jump to prove to him he can't get out of work by refusing?

Again, not wanting to get pounced on, I just seriously don't know:uhoh:
Yes.

EVERYONE who gets elimianted (including me) WANTS to do another jump to make a point. But the rules say that you cannot jump another jump on the ocurse. You CAN go back to the warm up and jump a couple of jumps there.

pegasusmom
Jun. 10, 2007, 04:26 PM
"... snot nosed fence judge,"

Any sympathy I may have had - and I emphasize MAY have had - flew out the window when you referred to a volunteer as "{snot nosed." Yep, eventing isn't what it used to be - and it's people like you who have made it worse.
Grow up.


AMEN to that!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As a snot nosed organizer who spent the entire day today in the heat, rounding up snot nosed jump judges so morons like you could come out and play - please go away. And if you don't go away, please be VERY SURE that you are not welcome with that attitude at my events.

retreadeventer
Jun. 10, 2007, 04:31 PM
would you not want to insist your horse jump to prove to him he can't get out of work by refusing?

No. Not at a competition. ESPECIALLY after you have been told to leave. This also happened to me stewarding out on cross country at a starter event last weekend. I told a rider who had made five attempts at a jump NOT to go again (she was tearing up the approach and interfering with other riders on course with her behavior) and she took ANOTHER attempt after I said NO.

This is critical. You cannot run around a cross country course like it's your backyard schooling ring! It is the height of rudeness to the landowner, to the other riders before you and after you, and to the competition -- not to mention if it took you six times to get over the fence what on earth where you doing up there the previous five times?
Think of the math. Say there's 100 novice horses and riders that have to jump that jump. That's 200 impressions (100 on takeoff, 100 on landing) the footing in front and back of the jump takes. Now, say you stop twice. Say a couple of other people stop twice. Now we have 20 or 30 extra impressions. Someone makes five attempts at it -- now they have torn up the footing five times more than the landowner planned on. Do you get my point?
Every run you make at a jump you put miles on your horse. Why did he stop the first time? You weren't present? What makes the fifth or sixth time different? You've just exhausted your horse who is probably stopping because he hurts, or you lost his trust. Build trust, sound up the horse somewhere else - HOME is suggested!!! Whatever happened to *riding*? What would you want to hit a horse with the bat more than once for anyhow? Doesn't he listen to the bat? Why? Don't you know how to make him listen to your leg? HOME, HOME, Home, not at a competition!!! Gauugghhhh. Retread is shutting up now...oh my trainer side just erupts on threads like these! Troll alert!

JER
Jun. 10, 2007, 04:56 PM
The rules are 3 smacks of the crop/whip/bat (of the appropriate length) per fence are allowed.

Define "smack". :D

Basically, the rule is about 'touches' with the whip. But it's about quantity rather than quality so three tickles = three almighty wallops.

My friend (a tiny girl who weighed about 90 lbs at the time) got eliminated on this rule once under rather comic circumstances. It was a hot day, she was riding my wily old QH who loved water. He happily hopped into the water and decided it was a good time to cool his feet and have a drink. Knowing this horse as well as we did, it could have been a very long afternoon, especially if you made any kind of fuss about his unwillingness to move (then he really wasn't going anywhere). So she did what we usually did in those situations. She started tickling the top of his rump with the tip of the whip. Just lightly touching his skin with it, hoping he'd get annoyed enough to move. She got eliminated for 'excessive use of the whip' and then continued to tickle him until he agreed to leave the water. We had a good laugh (the whole crowd was laughing too) but she was in 1st place after dressage and thus very disappointed.

Just last week I saw a competitor hit her horse in front of the shoulder, quite clearly on the neck, repeatedly (before and after stops). She didn't get eliminated but that may have been because the judge was on the non-whip side of the horse. The rider seemed completely unaware of the rule.

As for venting, I think it has a beneficial domino effect. You vent, the moral police vent back, the people-who-are-tired-of-the-moral-police vent at them and eventually everybody gets it all out before they go back to work on Monday.

JSwan
Jun. 10, 2007, 05:33 PM
JER - I understand what you are saying - but the OP's post was more than venting frustration or confusion about rules. If it wasn't a troll, it was a mean spirited person exhibiting bad sportsmanship. If that's the way he/she acts at competitions - no wonder she was eliminated for excessive use of the whip.

I don't event anymore - but I still volunteer. It is so hard to get volunteers - and it's even harder to keep them when competitors think it's ok to spit on them. It costs a lot of time and money and effort to put on even an unrecognized schooling show - much less a recognized trial.

I've disagreed with a judge's perception of my dressage test - and I've even taken issue with where a jump judge was sitting (almost on the obstacle; causing every horse to refuse). But the whole "I'm better because I don't eat anything with a mother and stupid doo doo head jerk eliminated me" tells me the spoiled brat needs an attitude adjustment and a lesson in losing gracefully.

Then there's the whole PeTa member using a whip and eventing to begin with.... .which is..... odd.....

deltawave
Jun. 10, 2007, 05:53 PM
So define "in front of the shoulder". If I am galloping down to a scary big jump and Gwen is pulling or not focusing, I have always given her a light tap (I'm talking not enough to make your skin hurt if I did it on your bare leg) ON the shoulder, just in front of the saddle flap. It picks her up, makes her pay attention. Hitting her behind the leg FREAKS her out and upsets her like crazy...I have never once used a whip on her there, have never had to and don't want to. I certainly can get her attention in other ways, but this is quick and extremely effective. I also do it usually 100 feet in front of the jump...guess I had better look over the rule again, I certainly don't want to be violating anything with my old habit. I often joke that the "shoulder tap" is more for MY benefit--is there any rule against whacking ONESELF with the crop? :lol:

JSwan
Jun. 10, 2007, 06:09 PM
deltawave - this is one thing I really like about foxhunting. There is usually absolutely no problem with your horse wanting to go forward. :D

(Stopping, however, is another story)

I carry a crop for emergencies - but I've never had to use it except to swipe bees off or get a branch out of the way. I think if I used the crop on the shoulder, behind my leg, or anywhere else on his body - he'd set a land speed record.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I haven't reviewed rules in a while) - but isn't there a mechanism for appealing a ruling? Isn't that what a TD can do?




So define "in front of the shoulder". If I am galloping down to a scary big jump and Gwen is pulling or not focusing, I have always given her a light tap (I'm talking not enough to make your skin hurt if I did it on your bare leg) ON the shoulder, just in front of the saddle flap. It picks her up, makes her pay attention. Hitting her behind the leg FREAKS her out and upsets her like crazy...I have never once used a whip on her there, have never had to and don't want to. I certainly can get her attention in other ways, but this is quick and extremely effective. I also do it usually 100 feet in front of the jump...guess I had better look over the rule again, I certainly don't want to be violating anything with my old habit. I often joke that the "shoulder tap" is more for MY benefit--is there any rule against whacking ONESELF with the crop? :lol:

JER
Jun. 10, 2007, 06:30 PM
So define "in front of the shoulder".

In the case I referred to, the whip was at about 70 degrees to the shoulder, completely off the anatomical chart of that region. She was clearly hitting the neck. I don't think there was any abusive/nefarious intent -- it seemed like she was doing something out of habit, perhaps she didn't realize where her whip was really landing. This was BN, IIRC and it wasn't a pro on board.

I'm really more disturbed by riders who seem to think that it's ok to dig your spurs into the horse's sides all the time. "Leg" and "spur" aren't the same thing. Far worse horsemanship than four taps with the whip, at least IMO. Does this qualify as a vent?

CamsMom
Jun. 10, 2007, 07:10 PM
After volunteering the last two days at an event, I have to wonder at the OP's definition of a "tap". At the briefing all the volunteers attended before the event started, we were specifically instructed on what constituted abuse of the horse. We were instructed that the crop could not be used in front of the shoulder, more than 3 times at one jump (before the jump, not after), and you could not cross your arm over and hit on the opposite side of the horse. Yesterday there were three riders that were "talked" to by the TD for horse abuse. Today there was a rider that didn't start smacking her horse until AFTER he jumped the jump...and he was screaming obscenitites at the same time. If the horse completed the jump, shouldn't she have been praising instead of beating? If that had been my daughter, I would have yanked her out of the saddle so fast she wouldn't have known what was happening.

Why do I volunteer? Because 99 percent of the people are wonderful and grateful for the help. I also volunteer because I love the sport and I'm not capable of competing (besides being over the hill, I'm terrified of falling). The most important reason is because I get to spend more time with my daughter, who is a competitor. What kind of example is being set for the up and coming riders if they see this kind of behavior? If you're upset by a ruling, take it up with the TD, and don't take it out on the volunteer. We're only following the guidelines we were given.

Sannois
Jun. 10, 2007, 07:18 PM
is being truthful or not, I really dont get that rule. I can see wacking behind the leg or on the butt hard with over hand strokes, thats excessive use. But the bats I have carried and what I have seen most eventers carry are wide with big poppers on them, flat pieces of jeather at the end and its not more than a tap on the shoulder that you can do anyway holding it in your hand alond with your rein. :confused:

canterlope
Jun. 10, 2007, 07:37 PM
Okay guys, let's get the whip rule correct. As an aid to go forward, the rider may use the whip as many times as necessary as long as it does not break the skin, leave a make, lands in front of the shoulder, or is used overhand. It is only after the horse has committed a disobedience that the "three hit" rule comes into play.

While I don't agree with the way the OP "vented" against the jump judge, the jump judge was incorrect in the application of the whip rule.

JSwan
Jun. 10, 2007, 07:45 PM
canterlope - you seem to know the actual rule - now from what I remember the competitor could appeal to a TD, then the Ground Jury.

I could be completely wrong - but if you know the answer could you share it? Because I could have sworn that it was so.

eventer_mi
Jun. 10, 2007, 07:48 PM
While I don't agree with the way the OP "vented" against the jump judge, the jump judge was incorrect in the application of the whip rule.

Too true. At Lumber River today, I watched a competitor whack her horse, hard, behind the leg FOUR times after a refusal. I questioned it because of the "three hit rule" (not to anybody in particular, just musing to myself), and just figured that it was because it was at the BN level, it was excused.

I don't remember how many times I had to slap Sam with the crop (probably three? four?) going into the top water jump, because he was getting squirrely, but I was okay with that because it wasn't in response to a committed disobedience - it was because I felt him sucking back. No problems, got him in, and nobody said anything about it.

These things happen - sometimes IN your favor, sometimes AGAINST. I remember a show where the competitor completely skirted the water jump by leaping the corner, but she went between the flags, so she was still okay. Today, I thought I had checked my final results and was okay with them, and then went home, logged in, and noticed that I had received time faults for excessive speed - huh? I thought I was 7 seconds over the optimum time? But since the time for contesting scores was over, there was nothing I could do.

I agree with canterlope - KNOW THE RULES. That way, the OP could have contested the ruling within the 30 minute time period allowed, and none of this would have happened.

flyingchange
Jun. 10, 2007, 07:49 PM
I don't think she got eliminated. Just an oral spanking. pun intended. sorry, couldn't resist.

Elghund2
Jun. 10, 2007, 08:34 PM
"3. WHIP. The use of the whip must be for a good reason, at an appropriate time, in the
right place, and with appropriate severity.
a. Reason—the whip must only be used either as an aid to encourage the horse forward,
or as a reprimand. It must never be used to vent a rider’s temper. Such use is
always excessive.
b. Time—As an aid, the only appropriate time is when a horse is reluctant to go forward
under normal aids of the seat and legs. As a reprimand, the only appropriate time
is immediately after a horse has been disobedient, e.g. napping or refusing. The whip
should not be used after elimination. The whip should not be used after a horse has
jumped the last fence on a course.
c. Place—As an aid to go forward, the whip may be used down the shoulder or behind
the rider’s leg. As a reprimand, it must only be used behind the rider’s leg. It must
never be used overhand, e.g. a whip in the right hand being used on the left flank. The
use of a whip on a horse’s head, neck, etc., is always excessive use.
d. Severity—As a reprimand only, a horse may be hit hard. However, it should never
be hit more than three times for any one incident. If a horse is marked by the whip, e.g.
the skin is broken, its use is excessive."

That above is the exact rule cut and pasted from the rule book. The judge was right . More than three times with the whip is considered abuse regardless of time, location or intent.

This is exactly how every TD has explained it at any event in which I was a judge.

sunhawk
Jun. 10, 2007, 08:41 PM
Omigawd, I hope the OP doesn't use tack made from dead animal hides!!:eek:

deltawave
Jun. 10, 2007, 09:05 PM
Thank you for posting that. My shoulder tap appears to be legal. ;)

shea'smom
Jun. 10, 2007, 09:57 PM
Well, from reading the rule, I don't get where it says that the three hits can be at any time? Whose is to say when it even involves the fence then.
I still think it is three after a disobediance (sp?)

deltawave
Jun. 10, 2007, 10:12 PM
The OP never explicitly said whether the crop use was related to a refusal/disobedience, did she?

shea'smom
Jun. 10, 2007, 10:23 PM
She said she was approaching a drop.
I'd say this rule needs clarifying.

Beam Me Up
Jun. 11, 2007, 12:02 AM
I think it's written vaguely.

I got E for whip use nowhere near a fence (I thought I was encouraging to go forward, but maybe it was seen as a reprimand).

Was trying to go through a fenceline to get from one field on x-c to another, horse stalled out, reared, tried to spin and run for home. Anyway, unlike a refusal it was a rather long and drawn out incident (20 sec of rearing, backing?) and on my 4th smack I was E by fence judge of fence I had just jumped. I guess I wasn't thinking of the rule in a non-jumping context, but I did understand that the whole thing was a single incident.

TD tore me a new one too--went on about how people like me are ruining the sport, shouldn't be riding, etc. It sucked, but I did break the rule and deserved the E.

pegasusmom
Jun. 11, 2007, 06:39 AM
Too true. At Lumber River today, I watched a competitor whack her horse, hard, behind the leg FOUR times after a refusal. I questioned it because of the "three hit rule" (not to anybody in particular, just musing to myself), and just figured that it was because it was at the BN level, it was excused.



I believe, because this was BN, the competitor was warned.

canterlope
Jun. 11, 2007, 06:54 AM
"3. WHIP. The use of the whip must be for a good reason, at an appropriate time, in the
right place, and with appropriate severity.
a. Reason—the whip must only be used either as an aid to encourage the horse forward,
or as a reprimand. It must never be used to vent a rider’s temper. Such use is
always excessive.
b. Time—As an aid, the only appropriate time is when a horse is reluctant to go forward
under normal aids of the seat and legs. As a reprimand, the only appropriate time
is immediately after a horse has been disobedient, e.g. napping or refusing. The whip
should not be used after elimination. The whip should not be used after a horse has
jumped the last fence on a course.
c. Place—As an aid to go forward, the whip may be used down the shoulder or behind
the rider’s leg. As a reprimand, it must only be used behind the rider’s leg. It must
never be used overhand, e.g. a whip in the right hand being used on the left flank. The
use of a whip on a horse’s head, neck, etc., is always excessive use.
d. Severity—As a reprimand only, a horse may be hit hard. However, it should never
be hit more than three times for any one incident. If a horse is marked by the whip, e.g.
the skin is broken, its use is excessive."

That above is the exact rule cut and pasted from the rule book. The judge was right . More than three times with the whip is considered abuse regardless of time, location or intent.

This is exactly how every TD has explained it at any event in which I was a judge.Elghund2, please read paragraph d. very carefully. It begins with the words, "As a reprimand only..." It does not talk about using the whip "as an aid". Therefore, the "never be hit more than three times for any one incident" does not apply to using the whip "as an aid", rather only when it is used "as a reprimand".

Janet
Jun. 11, 2007, 07:05 AM
I think d. could/should be reworded to be clearer.

The "never more than 3 times" only applies to "reprimands". But the next sentence, which says that if "the skin is broken, its use is excessive" is intended, I think, to apply to both "reinforcement of the aids" and "aid to go forward".

Elghund2
Jun. 11, 2007, 07:17 AM
Canterlope, note that all sections of the whip rule make reference to reprimand. That does not mean that they only apply to a reprimand. I read the rule as the force that is applied to a reprimand may be forcefall as long as it does not leave a mark or break the skin. However, the three hits I read as being applicable to all uses of the whip.

In the Severity section, it just happens to lead with reprimand. At every trial I have judged, the TD has ALWAYS said three hits max without qualification. If you do not think the rule is not clear then talk to the governing body.

If someone goes to the whip four times when I am judging there will be a call to the TD and note on the score sheet. I won't disqualify them on the course but I will talk to the TD about it and let them make the decision.

I personally believe that if you have to go to the whip that often then you haven't done the training necessary to compete. Just my opinion.

shea'smom
Jun. 11, 2007, 07:18 AM
Beam me up, I do not think you should have been Eliminated. That TD was wrong, too, to talk to you like that.
Dumb rule. no body knows how it is supposed to work.
I don't know what the answer is. We went how long with no rule? Before, anyone could talk to the TD about a competitor who seemed abusive.
:confused::confused:

Gnep
Jun. 11, 2007, 07:26 AM
so that means ( skin is broken ) one can not tatoo once horse any more.

what if the skin tears ?

Is tearing ok ?

and if does one have to change the side on which one uses the whip ?

this is all so very technical.

what is the jump judge does not have a snot nose, does the snot ( with big buggers ) have to run down both sides of the face or is one side good enough and does one have to offer the snot nose jj a paper towel to clean up ?

So many unanwsered questions, mind buggerling

canterlope
Jun. 11, 2007, 07:29 AM
I think d. could/should be reworded to be clearer.

The "never more than 3 times" only applies to "reprimands". But the next sentence, which says that if "the skin is broken, its use is excessive" is intended, I think, to apply to both "reinforcement of the aids" and "aid to go forward".Janet, because that first sentence of paragraph d. says a horse may only be hit hard when using the whip as a reprimand, it makes it illegal to hit the horse hard when using the whip as an aid. As a result, regardless of whether the skin is broken or not, if it is concluded that a rider is hitting the horse hard while using the whip as an aid, then that use of the whip should be deemed excessive.

canterlope
Jun. 11, 2007, 07:47 AM
Canterlope, note that all sections of the whip rule make reference to reprimand. That does not mean that they only apply to a reprimand. I read the rule as the force that is applied to a reprimand may be forcefall as long as it does not leave a mark or break the skin. However, the three hits I read as being applicable to all uses of the whip.

In the Severity section, it just happens to lead with reprimand. At every trial I have judged, the TD has ALWAYS said three hits max without qualification. If you do not think the rule is not clear then talk to the governing body.

If someone goes to the whip four times when I am judging there will be a call to the TD and note on the score sheet. I won't disqualify them on the course but I will talk to the TD about it and let them make the decision.

I personally believe that if you have to go to the whip that often then you haven't done the training necessary to compete. Just my opinion.Elghund2, I don't wish to appear snotty, but as a TD and a member of the committee that writes the rules for Eventing, I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about with regards to this particular rule. Paragraph d. includes the word "only" for the reason being it applied to using the whip as a reprimand solely. That the TDs where you have judged have not made a distinction between the two different uses of the whip does not negate this fact.

I would be more than happy to go talk to the governing body, but then I would be talking to myself and people would definitely conclude that I'm crazier then they first believed. :winkgrin:

bambam
Jun. 11, 2007, 08:57 AM
But canterlope, I think the salient point in Elghund2's post (or one of them) is that she is receiving instructions as a jump judge that it is 3 hits period. I have received the same instructions as a jump judge from the TD.
So if that is incorrect somebody needs to be clarifying this rule to the TDs.
I always thought it was 3 hits per incident- whether the incident was reprimanding a refusal or as a forward aid because they were sucking back approaching a jump. It sounds like I am wrong but it also seems as if not all TDs are on the same page on this.

GreystoneKC
Jun. 11, 2007, 09:12 AM
QUOTE:

*****canterlope
Not just your ordinary fruit*****
Premium Member Join Date: Jan. 1, 2001
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*****If the Number 2 pencil is so popular, why is it still number 2? *****

ENDQUOTE:


OK... I KNOW I have seen you post before, but I've obviously never noticed this!!!!! Seriously, thank you for giving me my hearty laugh of the week! I am so glad I kept reading through this thread until I read you're little comments! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

canterlope
Jun. 11, 2007, 09:38 AM
I always thought it was 3 hits per incident- whether the incident was reprimanding a refusal or as a forward aid because they were sucking back approaching a jump. It sounds like I am wrong but it also seems as if not all TDs are on the same page on this.bambam, most definitely all of the TDs are not on the same page. Nor are the dressage judges, course designers, etc. This is the subjective, human factor, of our sport that can't be regulated by rules. The best we can hope for is that our officials strive to keep up with the rules and interpret them consistently at a particular event even if the rules are not interpreted consistently from event to event.

FWIW, I have competed/officiated at seven events so far this year. At four of them, I've been involved in situations where an official either wasn't aware of a rule change or mis-interpreted a rule. None of this was due to any evil intent on anyone's part, but rather because our rules do change quite often and may be interpreted in many different ways. This is why it is so important that competitors read the rule book, ask questions if they don't understand a rule before they compete, and not be afraid to make an inquiry when it appears that a rule is being incorrectly applied.

deltawave
Jun. 11, 2007, 09:42 AM
I also think paragraph "d" is a little confusing. :uhoh:

I get the "as a reprimand only" bit, but the way I read it, the "only" refers to hitting the horse hard. As in, you can only hit the horse hard as a reprimand for disobedience, not as a forward aid. The term "incident" IMPLIES disobedience or reprimand, but is cantering down to a maximum Weldon's Wall and tapping the horse to get it thinking forward "an incident"?

The whole "never hit more than 3 times" thing seems distinct from the hitting hard bit.

Janet
Jun. 11, 2007, 09:44 AM
Janet, because that first sentence of paragraph d. says a horse may only be hit hard when using the whip as a reprimand, it makes it illegal to hit the horse hard when using the whip as an aid. As a result, regardless of whether the skin is broken or not, if it is concluded that a rider is hitting the horse hard while using the whip as an aid, then that use of the whip should be deemed excessive.

_I_ know what it means, because I've been to the annual meetings where it has been discussed.

But Elgund's interpretation is not an unreasonable one if all you are working from is the written word. It is incorrect, but not unreasonable. And I think it could be "fixed" with a little rewording.

BarbB
Jun. 11, 2007, 10:13 AM
If the intent of the rule is that the 3 hits applies only to a reprimand, then the rule needs to be re-written.
If I am understanding the explanation from the people who have access to the intent.

The rule, as written, if you don't try to interpret it or read anything into it or apply it to life, or make it read the way you think it should be, just read the words...says that the 3 hit limit is per incident.

I watched a prelim rider get eliminated on course for hitting her horse four times as he reluctantly trotted into a big drop. She was clearly telling him to go forward, I don't think anyone thought the force was excessive, but she wacked him four times and the whistle blew.

If the way a rule is being interpreted and the way it was intended don't match, the simple fix is to rewrite it.
And I am not assuming that this is simple logistically....but if you have to know the right people and go to the right meetings to know the right interpretation of the rule, then it needs to be fixed.

bambam
Jun. 11, 2007, 10:37 AM
bambam, most definitely all of the TDs are not on the same page. Nor are the dressage judges, course designers, etc. This is the subjective, human factor, of our sport that can't be regulated by rules. The best we can hope for is that our officials strive to keep up with the rules and interpret them consistently at a particular event even if the rules are not interpreted consistently from event to event.

FWIW, I have competed/officiated at seven events so far this year. At four of them, I've been involved in situations where an official either wasn't aware of a rule change or mis-interpreted a rule. None of this was due to any evil intent on anyone's part, but rather because our rules do change quite often and may be interpreted in many different ways. This is why it is so important that competitors read the rule book, ask questions if they don't understand a rule before they compete, and not be afraid to make an inquiry when it appears that a rule is being incorrectly applied.
??? If the rule means 3 hits only as a reprimand then this has nothing to do with "subjective human factor" of the sport- the call as to whether it was as a forward aid or a reprimand is arguably subjective but not the issue of when the 3 hit rule applies. So the subjective human factor doesn't really apply to what I am talking about- if as you say, there is one correct interpretation according to USEA, then this needs to be communicated to the TDs and the competitors.
And if the issue is that the rules are so ambiguously written that they are subject to different legitimate interpretations, then simply saying as long as the rule is consistently applied at a given event it is okay even if it varies from event to event is simply not a sufficient answer IMVHO. I don't mean this directed at you or the other officials and committee members as I know you all work hard for this sport we love but this seems to me something that can relatively easily be fixed with the next round of rule changes- just make the wording clearer.
I have read the rules and I, along with at least 3 TDs believed it to be 3 hits period. If this is wrong or not what the rules committee mean, then it is wrong and the TDs need to know this and communicate it to competitors.

canterlope
Jun. 11, 2007, 10:59 AM
Canterlope, note that all sections of the whip rule make reference to reprimand. That does not mean that they only apply to a reprimand.Elghund2, using this type of reasoning, then the reverse should be true and everything that applies to using the whip as an aid should apply to using it as a reprimand. This would then make it perfectly fine for me to reprimand my horse by hitting it hard on the shoulder. This is not the case because when a rule is very specifically written, as is the whip rule, and gives very specific guidance as to how each incident that falls within its confines is to be handled, it is incorrect to apply the guidance for one incident to an different incident that has separately listed guidance.

Elghund2
Jun. 11, 2007, 11:28 AM
Elghund2, using this type of reasoning, then the reverse should be true and everything that applies to using the whip as an aid should apply to using it as a reprimand. This would then make it perfectly fine for me to reprimand my horse by hitting it hard on the shoulder. This is not the case because when a rule is very specifically written, as is the whip rule, and gives very specific guidance as to how each incident that falls within its confines is to be handled, it is incorrect to apply the guidance for one incident to an different incident that has separately listed guidance.

Based upon the comments on this thread and the way TD's are explaining the rule at briefings, the rule is not clear or specific. Obviously a piss-poor job was done by the rules committee in drafting this one. It falls into the Alice In Wonderland approach to rules - "I don't always say what I mean, but I mean what I say".

JAM
Jun. 11, 2007, 11:34 AM
It is a horribly worded rule (though it is not alone among the rules in that respect). While I understand Canterlope's point that the first sentence talks about reprimand, the use of "however" and "never" in the following sentence suggests that the 3 hit rule applies to both reprimand and encouragement (and the rule also suggests that a horse can't be hit "hard" for encouragement). If TDs cannot even agree on what this rule means (not to mention the confusion on this thread on the part of seemingly intelligent people), then it seems unfair to blame competitors for not reading and understanding the rules. If the intent of the rule is so clear, why not just change the rule at the next available opportunity and issue uniform instructions to TDs in the interim to communicate to jump judges and other officials (e.g., "when used as a reprimand, the whip should never be used more than three times for any one incident; when used as encouragement, ....").

bornfreenowexpensive
Jun. 11, 2007, 12:44 PM
NOT that my opinion counts for anything....but I am a lawyer who makes a living interpreting contracts and statutes.

While I do think that the rule is open to reasonable interpretation...and could be drafted more clearly....I read the "However" as modifying the previous sentence which clearly relates to the use of the whip as a form of reprimand. The previous sentence said that when used as a reprimand, the horse may be hit hard. The "however" may only hit three times seems to relate directly to the permissive behavior of hitting the horse hard in connection with a reprimand. And with that, I would say that the "3 Hit" rule ONLY applies when the whip is used to reprimand a horse not as a form of encouragement. This would be my interpretation....but I can see the other interpretations as well.

That said....perhaps a clear 3 hits at any time rule would be much easier to enforce. Also, how do you judge what is a "hard" hit? So when I smack my horse behind my leg coming into a drop or jump into water as a form of re-enforcing my leg to make them go, a judge might think I hit them too hard...how do you define hard?

But folks...drafting rules (and contracts) is extremely difficult. Something that at the time drafted seems clear enough, when you apply it to a fact situation some time later, often doesn't seem as clear. It happens all the time in my line of work....often we are happy with the drafting of a provision, and someone not close to the drafting reads it and interprets it in a manner we never intended or even thought of.

If the rule is being applied inconsistently, then it should be re-drafted....but don't insult the original drafters....at the time drafted, it probably seemed pretty darn clear.

Sannois
Jun. 11, 2007, 01:23 PM
Okay guys, let's get the whip rule correct. As an aid to go forward, the rider may use the whip as many times as necessary as long as it does not break the skin, leave a make, lands in front of the shoulder, or is used overhand. It is only after the horse has committed a disobedience that the "three hit" rule comes into play.

While I don't agree with the way the OP "vented" against the jump judge, the jump judge was incorrect in the application of the whip rule.

Where exactly do they mean by in front of the shoulder? Would you not have to be hitting the chest and what purpose would that serve?? :confused:

His Greyness
Jun. 11, 2007, 01:40 PM
One thing that this thread re-inforces, in my opinion, is that Eventing Rules are FAR TOO COMPLICATED. Given that the average fence judge is a willing but not very horsey VOLUNTEER, expecting them to report on infractions that take several hours study per rule to understand is completely unrealistic.

I understand that the Rules Committee is also made up of volunteers but it seems to be oblivious to implementation issues. The average fence judge briefing takes less than half an hour and has to cover "What to do in case of a fall or accident" as well as the latest aberration in the rules. I know experienced volunteers are out there but, as the appeals for volunteers on this forum show, they are not easy to come by. If the basics of the rules fence judges must report on can't be explained in fifteen minutes then the rules should be simplified or thrown out.

When I am sitting on the judges stand in some volunteer role as scribe, scorer, timer or announcer and I am the only one with an up-to-date rule book who has read it, THERE IS A PROBLEM. If paid "officials" can't keep up with the rule changes how do you expect a poor volunteer fence judge to do so?

I have another volunteer role as an environmental regulator in the town I live in. I see "rampant rule creep" in that context as well. The solution to any problem is always seen as another rule or regulation or expansion of the same.

I would rewrite the whip rule as follows:

"At the discretion of the Ground Jury a competitor may be penalized for use of the whip more than three times in any one incident."

Then the paid officials can sort out what happened and the volunteer fence judge only has to count up to three.

bludini
Jun. 11, 2007, 01:46 PM
NOT that my opinion counts for anything....but I am a lawyer who makes a living interpretating contracts and statutes....



heehee... that's funny.

bornfreenowexpensive
Jun. 11, 2007, 01:52 PM
heehee... that's funny.


That's what I get for not having spell check and responding without having had enough coffee this morning!!!:lol:


But I agree....I prefer to keep it simple stupid and reduce the rules that jump judges need to know and apply.

sm
Jun. 11, 2007, 02:04 PM
to the OP: Don't you think you should be more concerned about WHY your horse kept refusing? Figure out if it was anything you did wrong with your weight/seat/hands or what you can fix moving forward so the young horse isn't freaked out.

Just doesn't sound like good sportsmanship on your part...

Risk-Averse Rider
Jun. 11, 2007, 02:25 PM
what is the jump judge does not have a snot nose, does the snot ( with big buggers ) have to run down both sides of the face or is one side good enough and does one have to offer the snot nose jj a paper towel to clean up ?If one does offer the jump judge a paper towel to clean up, be sure to hand it to the jump judge using the hand on the same side as the jump judge, lest you be penalized for overhand use of a paper towel, which is excessive, and is therefore abuse.

(Not to mention likely to spook your horse, especially if it is before 8:00 am.)

BarnField
Jun. 11, 2007, 02:27 PM
Where exactly do they mean by in front of the shoulder? Would you not have to be hitting the chest and what purpose would that serve?? :confused:


Sannois, they do not want a horse to be hit on the head with a whip. That would be bad.

Risk-Averse Rider
Jun. 11, 2007, 02:29 PM
Reading through all this discussion makes me wonder...

How long does "an incident" last?

*If* we assume that the 3-hit rule applies across the board (and I realize that it may or may not apply, but let's assume for the sake of argument that it does), how long do you have to wait between sets of 3?

You're coming to a fence/obstacle that you feel that you're going to need to encourage your horse to get through/over. Beginner Novice water, for example. 5 strides out, "tap-tap-tap" behind the leg. How soon can you "tap-tap-tap" again without getting busted?

Risk-Averse Rider
Jun. 11, 2007, 02:32 PM
Sannois, they do not want a horse to be hit on the head with a whip. That would be bad.And you have to be careful even in hitting the shoulder. A junior rider from our barn was trying to tap her mare on the shoulder once, and the mare flung her head around in such a way that the girl ended up connecting with the mare's neck. The jump judge reported it, and the TD came down on her like a ton of bricks.

Speedy
Jun. 11, 2007, 02:43 PM
Like the courts say of obscenity, you know it when you see it. As a volunteer and as a rider, I've seen people that I would report for this and people I wouldn't. Despite what folks say about the ambiguity in the written rule, it is really, really clear to me when I see a violation...and my experience is that people tend to be more cautious than they should be about reporting this, not less. I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the person who made the report, particularly since this is intended to safeguard the horse.

sidepasser
Jun. 11, 2007, 06:51 PM
The whole 3 hits/whaps/taps whatever you want to call it..is vague, but I would take it literally and think it means if I reprimand my horse with 3 taps with the whip in a single incident..I'm ok. If I do a 4th..I'm outta there..

I sort of interpret things literally..as most volunteers at a show (and I used to volunteer quite a bit) are given basic instructions..and that's that. We aren't expected to "read between the lines" or "contemplate what the rule could mean"..that is up to others so an appeal would be in order if the OP thinks the elimination was wrong.

In my humble opinion, it it took more than 3 whaps with the whip and my horse wasn't interested in going, I would do more schooling and address it at home or with a trainer.

lxt
Jun. 11, 2007, 07:38 PM
I know of one incident where somebody was spoken to for using the whip in front of the shoulder - they hit the horse over the head three times after a third refusal. This is the kind of thing that particular rule is trying to address.

wabadou
Jun. 11, 2007, 07:55 PM
Where exactly do they mean by in front of the shoulder? Would you not have to be hitting the chest and what purpose would that serve?? :confused:


Sannois,
As a jump judge, most recently I had to talk to the TD about someone who had 3 refusals ( not even dirty, just gradually running out and the rider doing nothing) . After I told the rider very politely that he would have to retire, he yanked the horse around, dug his spurs into the horse and yanked and sawed as the horse tried to go forward. He then took his bat and smacked the horse, hard, on the upper side of the neck and sawed and yanked as the horse tried to get away.
Another time recently, I was jump judging a small ditch on Novice. The rider was obviously very apprehensive about the ditch as she was watching the ditch (eyes down) and shoving her hands up the horses neck and yelling. The horse put his eyes down, too, and very gradually stopped...3 times. As this girl turned to leave, she had no crop so she leaned forward, took her gloved hand and hit the horse repeatedly across the upper side of the head around the eyes and ears. It was hard enough that the horse was trying to spin and throw his head up to avoid the "smacks".
Both of those would be considered "in front of the shoulder" and even though it was her hand and not a whip on the 2nd, it was loud enough to make me turn around and I still talked to the TD and she talked to the girl.

eventer_mi
Jun. 11, 2007, 10:43 PM
I believe, because this was BN, the competitor was warned.

Aha, that makes sense. It wasn't excessive, but I definitely counted four hits. Thanks for clearing that up for me!

canterlope
Jun. 12, 2007, 06:04 AM
Reading through all this discussion makes me wonder...

How long does "an incident" last?

*If* we assume that the 3-hit rule applies across the board (and I realize that it may or may not apply, but let's assume for the sake of argument that it does), how long do you have to wait between sets of 3?

You're coming to a fence/obstacle that you feel that you're going to need to encourage your horse to get through/over. Beginner Novice water, for example. 5 strides out, "tap-tap-tap" behind the leg. How soon can you "tap-tap-tap" again without getting busted?R-AR, by asking this question, you just hit the nail on the head in terms of the thinking needed to reason through the whip rule, determine the intent of the rule, and decide whether or not it is logical to apply the three hit limit to use of the whip as an aid.

Another very important question to ask is would it be possible to regulate the three hit limit if it applied to using the whip as an aid to go forward? As an example, Fence 3 on the BN course at the Carolina Horse Park is positioned at the top of an uphill approach. After it, you go slightly downhill, turn to the left, enter the woods, and Fence 4 is about ten strides further downhill. The two fences are fairly close together, but because of the terrain and woods, the jumps judges at each fence can not see the horse and rider the entire time they are between the two obstacles.

Let's say a horse jumps Fence 3, but starts to back off making the turn into the woods. The rider taps the horse twice, the horse goes into the woods, but is still reluctant to go forward. The rider taps the horse twice again, the horse goes forward, and jumps Fence 4. Is this one "incident"? It certainly would be reasonable to say that it was. If so, would it be possible for either one of the jump judges to regulate it?

Given the track, it would be possible for the jump judge at Fence 3 to see the first and second taps, but not the third and fourth. Meanwhile, it would be possible for the jump judge at Fence 4 to see the third and fourth taps, but not the first and second. The only way it would be possible to determine that the rider exceeded the three hit rule would be if both jump judges called in on their radios each time the rider taps his horse. Since it is not standard operation procedure to call in every time a rider taps his horse with the whip, the only answer to the question of would it be possible to regulate the three hit rule if it applied to using the whip as an aid to go forward is no. As a result, it is not logical to apply the three hit rule to use of the whip as an aid.

Hannahsmom
Jun. 12, 2007, 08:01 AM
I agree 100% with His Greyness' post above. This is getting way too complicated for those of us who are trying to do the right thing and volunteer but can't devote study time during my work week to rule nuances and interpretations. I let the TD guide me at the briefing and pretty much leave it at that. Yes, I've read the rules, I compete. But rules like the whip rule seem pretty vague. I get the whole 'in front of the shoulder thing', and the obvious abuse thing, but when it gets into nuances, I just write it down on the score sheet and let the TD deal with it. If that makes me a bad jump judge, well then I guess I'd better quit volunteering. I get enough hassle at my paying job.

annikak
Jun. 12, 2007, 09:29 AM
I am a rule governed person. All the way. So, that 3 hit thing? I think HARD about it. Perhaps too hard!:lol:
Was at an event last summer on my homebred guy. We were approaching the drop, I thought everything *might* be okay- never know with him. Hit the top- SCREECH! There was a serious need to look. Well, I kind of know him, knew that this was probably not going to work, but tried again. Smack, Smack Smack (I am told my smacks don't mean much...) counted them, thought, okay- fair and done!

Jump Judge said, "Don't you want to get him down?"
I said "but I used up my chances!"
She said "Don't you HATE that? You are already emiminated, if you want to keep trying, go right ahead- I'll let you know when someone is coming."
So, I have it another go, smack smack this time, and being the opinionated beast he can be, he has now decided that no Frigging WAY! is he doing this- I must be crazy!
I turned to walk off, knowing that banks were in our future, and she said-
"I'd have KILLED him!"

With us both laughing, I headed back towards the barn.

I, of course, have been told by a very famous dressage judge as I left the ring...
"He was blowing you totally off- He made ME mad and I wanted to wack him!" He still was 2nd after the division finished!;)

magnolia73
Jun. 12, 2007, 09:43 AM
Maybe the jump judge was a vegan who avoids all animal products including leather and brake fluid and glue. You never know.

Now go back to your bridge, learn to count.....

LLDM
Jun. 12, 2007, 09:45 AM
Quick question - Are there a set of "official" published guidelines for jump judges?

I read the rule - and I think it is clear enough for competitors. Of course I am sure if any of it is not crystal we could all just err on the side of caution. ;) But for jump judges, who may not have the proper context (non-horsey, non-eventer types) some better, clearer guidelines for interpretation would likely be well recieved.

If there IS such a thing for jump judges, please ignore this post (with the exception of telling me where to find said document).

SCFarm

Dr. Doolittle
Jun. 12, 2007, 09:52 AM
On this topic, my husband (who has jump judged several times, is well-versed in the rules, and a good "rule follower" :)), was jump judging multiple BN divisions at Difficult Run last month--afterwards, he told me "I saw *numerous* riders hit their horses more than 3 times" (he was stationed at a somewhat spooky jump), "and every time I saw that, I called it in on the walkie-talkie--but they didn't eliminate anyone because of it"...(It's possible that some riders were talked to about it, but no "official action" was taken...)

I'm thinking that this rule is sometimes enforced more "in the spirit of the law" than "in the letter of the law"...

flyingchange
Jun. 12, 2007, 10:10 AM
I do think it needs to be re-written to get rid of the ambiguity. Before canterlope clarified it, I thought you were only allowed 3 smacks/taps/whatever at any time, whether you were punishing or "persuading."

On a sidenote - I really, really, REALLY wish that the rules committee would decide on one set of rules and "go with them" instead of constantly changing and nitpicking with them every year, and making them more and more complicated (ie, now different levels have different rules in terms of number of stops allowed ...).

msghook
Jun. 12, 2007, 10:57 AM
O.K. you guys. Canterlope has it right; the rest of you are reading the rule with varying degrees of competence. She is also doing a very good job of explaning things, so please listen and think about what she says. When you read the rule, pay attention to how it is organized by sections, and how the sections relate to each other. If she asks me to, I will post a learned treatise on the subject, but it just bore you silly :-)

I will withhold comment on the OP, except to say that Deltawave and I agree.

Malcolm

JAM
Jun. 12, 2007, 12:03 PM
Don't doubt for a second that Canterlope has it right, and so now the select people who have been following this thread know the correct interpretation of this rule. The problem is that USEA-licensed TDs as well as we peons are also reading the rule and instructing jump judges with varying degrees of competence. Is it really that hard to officially clarify the rule so that TDs, jump judges, and competitors all know how to correctly apply it? If even TDs are not all getting it right, then something is wrong and needs to be fixed.

fergie
Jun. 12, 2007, 12:30 PM
What ever happened to turning your toes out and really kicking, you know, using your leg to go forward, instead or relying on the whip? Sounds like someone is a little embarassed to me.....

holmes
Jun. 12, 2007, 01:19 PM
In polo I am really pleased a lot of your umpires are on top of calling the excessive use of whip rule - I have been on both sides, an umpire calling it, and a rider having it called out on me. It is too easy to get carried away when we are competing......

Invested1
Jun. 12, 2007, 01:43 PM
So, to have some snot nosed fence judge, who probably eats meat, owns an unspayed cat or dog, worse yet buys a purebred instead of rescuing from a kill-shelter, accuse me of abuse just burns.

I'm more curious of how you feel the things you mentioned here constitute abuse.... :rolleyes:

hightech
Jun. 12, 2007, 03:56 PM
so if your horse needed a hit for the fence-- why didn't you give him a hard "one" instead of a million little taps??? then you'd have gotten the job done and been within the rules. rules and rules and you can't break them- period! and be nice to jump judges-- volunteers MAKE our sport!!!

SPLAT
Jun. 12, 2007, 04:19 PM
I am a "snot nosed" jump judge -
I eat meat,
I own purebred animals, let's see: an Aussie I rescued thru Second time around and a TB off the track - However they both have purebred papers (oh the shame)
They are all fixed so I guess, I hope I get a "non-abuse" point there
I don't belong to PETA


At least now I know I need to bring a hankie when I jump judge.
check list: - chair, sunscreen, hat, hankie for snot, .....

**note to self, don't compete until beastie is ready for level without refusal issues.**

mbarrett
Jun. 12, 2007, 04:37 PM
A person like Onthegrd really makes me think twice about jump judging EVER again.

Why, why, why would I put myself through HOURS of sitting in the hot sun, bugs, rain, wind, cold, LONG hikes to the john, (fill in the blank _____) watching endless horses jump a fence and disappear down the path to have someone criticize me for VOLUNTEERING!

Usually I get very little in the way of a thank you from anyone but the organizers. I get lunch, if I'm lucky. Riders, parents, trainers, grooms don't bend over backwards to say "thank you." I do it because I enjoy the sport and I like to help out.

If this person is not grateful to ALL the people who help to run an event, I don't want to do it. I've got tons of better things to do.

Hopefully, this person thoughts about jump judges is an exception, rather than the rule. But if not, shame on you Onthegrd. We jump judges are trying to help the sport because we love the sport. Don't blame me because you don't know the rules!

Get over it. We do not serve you and you alone. Go home, go cross-country schooling in an isolated place where no one cares if you hit your horse 2 times or 20 times.

Good bye.

Eq3nStar
Jun. 13, 2007, 12:00 AM
:lol: SPLAT's "note to self..." iced tea shooting out of my nose!! :lol:

canterlope
Jun. 13, 2007, 06:25 AM
Don't doubt for a second that Canterlope has it right, and so now the select people who have been following this thread know the correct interpretation of this rule. The problem is that USEA-licensed TDs as well as we peons are also reading the rule and instructing jump judges with varying degrees of competence. Is it really that hard to officially clarify the rule so that TDs, jump judges, and competitors all know how to correctly apply it? If even TDs are not all getting it right, then something is wrong and needs to be fixed.JAM, I have no doubt that msghook is already working on a plan to clarify the rule with the licensed officials. Both the USEF and the USEA publish licensed officials newsletters which routinely include clarifications like this. It is a sure bet that both of them will contain a clarification in their next publications. I have already raised the issue on the Licensed Officials Yahoo Group, so the word is getting out to members of that group.

Getting the word out to the competitors is a little trickier. I'm sure msghook will look into running a clarification in the next Eventing News magazine, but there are no guarantees that the competitors will read it (just as there are no guarantees that the officials will read the clarification in the organizer newsletters). One of the best ways to disseminate this clarification is through face-to-face contact with the officials, jump judges, competitors, etc. This is where the readers of this thread can really make a difference. If we all "talk it up" when the opportunity to do so presents itself, the word will get out. In the past when I've conducted jump judge briefings, I have always made a point to note the different acceptable uses of a whip. In the future, I will also discuss this with my fellow officials to make sure we are all on the same page with regards to this particular rule.

JAM
Jun. 13, 2007, 07:58 AM
Canterlope -- very glad to hear it. This seems like one of the relatively easier problems to fix, and it's welcome news that good progress is being made.

4footluv
Jun. 13, 2007, 08:04 AM
:)well I disagree with the original attitude (though she has apologized) I do agree with her frustrations. I don't think she meant to be so insulting. She is obviously concerned about the ambiguity of this rule.
Do we really want to be out on xc (especially on a greenie) worrying about whether or not we have used our stick too many times?
I have used my stick in a tapping fashion (by no means hard) before a looky fence just to encourage a young horse to keep moving on. That way hopefully it just continues forward to the fence and you never have to use your stick hard! Just my 2 cents worth!

west5
Jun. 13, 2007, 08:12 AM
:)
I have used my stick in a tapping fashion (by no means hard) before a looky fence just to encourage a young horse to keep moving on. That way hopefully it just continues forward to the fence and you never have to use your stick hard! Just my 2 cents worth!

According to Canterlope this would be ok as the horse has not had a disobedience. Correct?! :confused:

I think the problem with this rule lies in the fact that I feel it would be smart to print out this whole thread to have on my person at an event. Then if I ever had to object to a jump judges ruling I would have back up!

As the horses I ride usually view the crop as that "fly mover scratcher thing" and my dressage whip as "the extra long fly mover scratcher thing that can reach my ears" hopefully it shouldn't be a problem.:lol:

Heart River
Jun. 13, 2007, 09:25 AM
**note to self, don't compete until beastie is ready for level without refusal issues.**[/QUOTE]

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

asterix
Jun. 13, 2007, 09:30 AM
One suggestion for giving this issue more visibility at events -- if you are jump judging, and it does NOT come up in the briefing, raise your hand and ask about it.

I've done this several times when the briefing left out something that I KNEW the less experienced people wouldn't already know. By playing the newbie, I can gently nudge the TD to cover something critical (like how a hold on course works, or what to do when you have a rider circling the drain at your fence and another one bearing down -- lots of times this is not covered unless I "ask" about it).

Jleegriffith
Jun. 13, 2007, 10:42 AM
I take offense to the don't compete if you have refusal isses. How else do you get over the issues if you don't go out to see where you are at? I once got a lecture on to much use of my whip at the fairhill starter trial.

My young horse has issues with ditches and earlier in the season we got the big E at the FH recognized. I did some schooling and he was getting much better but he sometimes has a pony brain and although 99% of the time he will jump anything when he doesn't want to he is very disrespectful and will buck/rear and kick out. I use my stick to keep him going forward but not in an abusive way.

At the starter trial. We approached trakener and I tapped him on the shoulder to let him know pay attention. He did a slam on the brakes. I used the stick once and turned away and got a good gallop. The second time he acted like he was going but at last minute applied the brakes. I turned away and galloped off again giving him a few good smacks to let him know forward is the only option and I can be the bigger b**ch here so go ahead and try me. I was not thinking about how many but I didn't feel it was excessive or hard smacks. I smacked him behind the saddle. It does not work for him to stand in front of the fence and apply the stick but rather to apply the stick to reaffirm the forward aids as I gallop away from the fence. On the third approach he was thinking forward and gave me a nice jump.

Upon finishing the course someone came over to give me a lecture and they were very nasty toward me basically saying I would have been eliminated if it was a recognized competition and there was no place for using your whip more than three time.

I disagree with that because to me starter trials are meant for schooling. I would never harm my horse but this horse needs the rules outlined more than most horses. If I wouldn't have laid down the law he likely would have just blown me off and I would have had to let him go home not without finishing the course. I hate to be riding greenies thinking about whether the jump judge thinks I hit my horse one to many times. She said she counted four times that I hit him and wasn't once enough? Well truthfully..no. Once was not enough for this horse when he was in his ignorant stage. He needed to know I was the boss. Since then we have not had any issues and he has learned forward is the right answer.

I do understand the rules but it would be nice if people could identify abusive. I see people using the whip regardless of whether the horse is going or not and that seems silly to me. Why give them three smacks on the approach when they are not even backing off? I find that more abusive that spanking a horse when they refuse.

Speedy
Jun. 13, 2007, 10:51 AM
I do understand the rules but it would be nice if people could identify abusive.

OK, what you've described - unless I misunderstood - is that you are using the stick to discipline your horse after turning away from the fence. Honestly, that IS abusive in my book. You have less than 3 seconds after a disobedience to reprimand your horse - after that time, the reprimand is meaningless, as the horse is not able to make the same type of connection that you are between cause and effect. By the time you do what you've described, your horse was thinking WTF, and it's no small wonder that you would have recurring problems. Sorry, but you asked.

The point of this type of rule is NOT that we can't go to events until everything is perfect, thus avoiding refusals completely, but rather to ensure that we address them properly when they occur, when we have adrenaline pumping through us and are not quite able to think as clearly as we might in a less stressful environment.

Dr. Doolittle
Jun. 13, 2007, 11:03 AM
Ok, another question: does "3 smacks per" equal 3 smacks allowed *total* per jump??

IOW, if the horse refuses once, you smack it twice (as a reprimand), turn it around, then re-present--at which point it's sticky on the approach, and you smack it two more times to get it thinking "forward", does that then constitute "4 smacks, i.e. abuse of whip?"

Jleegriffith
Jun. 13, 2007, 11:41 AM
[quote=Speedy;2497644]OK, what you've described - unless I misunderstood - is that you are using the stick to discipline your horse after turning away from the fence. Honestly, that IS abusive in my book. You have less than 3 seconds after a disobedience to reprimand your horse - after that time, the reprimand is meaningless, as the horse is not able to make the same type of connection that you are between cause and effect. By the time you do what you've described, your horse was thinking WTF, and it's no small wonder that you would have recurring problems. Sorry, but you asked.

I am using the whip to reinforce forward. Every horse is different and sure I wouldn't do this on most horses but this particular horse would get so behind the leg when he decided he was not going to jump a jump. I was not using the whip because of the refusal it was for the fact that when I turned away from the fence to canter a circle and reapproach he was being nappy and bucking. I do not have recurring problems but did have a horse who thought he was boss.

This very method of turning away from the fence and getting a good gallop to reinforce forward thinking was something suggest in a clinic I took. I was skeptical at first because I too normally smack the horse for the refusal but that made this horse worse. When he was made to gallop forward he figured out refusing was more work.

fergie
Jun. 13, 2007, 01:19 PM
Everyone has forgotten how to kick .....

Heart River
Jun. 13, 2007, 03:18 PM
[QUOTE=Jleegriffith;2497611]I take offense to the don't compete if you have refusal isses. How else do you get over the issues if you don't go out to see where you are at? I once got a lecture on to much use of my whip at the fairhill starter trial.


When did competition start being to "see where you are at"? You go to a competition to compete. It's based on the assumption that you've trained your horse adequately (and he has adequate skills) to do the task at hand. I'd be incredibly not interested in volunteering my time so that you can try to do something you haven't been able to accomplish yet, and then watch you beat the crap out of him because your hopefulness wasn't rewarded by a magical improvement in ability.

Face it - "where you are at" is that you can't get your horse over the obstacle without beating on him. Which means you're not ready for this level of competition.

moonriverfarm
Jun. 13, 2007, 03:23 PM
Yes, by all means move away from eventing to another discipline where you are looked kindly upon for "beating " your horse. What class you have.:lol:

hb
Jun. 13, 2007, 03:32 PM
Three smacks is not abuse but four smacks (not consecutive, one was on the shoulder before the first attempt at jump to encourage forward, one was after the first refusal, the other two were after the second refusal to get the horse going forward in a gallop, the jump judge said 4 smacks total at that fence) are "beating the crap" out of a horse?

Smacking a resistant horse with the whip to reinforce forward movement is not acceptable?

Taking your horse to an unrecognized event to see if the improvements shown while schooling are still evident in a competition atmosphere is not appropriate?


Where is that fruitbat...

SPLAT
Jun. 13, 2007, 04:06 PM
Heart River - I so agree!!

All of my comments apply to recognized HT because schooling, clinics and starter shows are exactly where you go to see where you are at.

Last couple of months - I've had ditch problems: Turns out I lean forward and look down thus scaring beastie because if I look down, hmmm must be something in that ditch - yikes -

This showed up at a rec. competition in the form of 20 penalties in xc.... so no more shows until: I could look up, keep my shoulders back, and convince beastie to leap over the ditch and I had a strategy to deal with a refusal.

I think a recognized competition is not the place to school known refusal issues. Unknown.... well that's a whole 'nother story...

Heart River
Jun. 13, 2007, 04:25 PM
Three smacks is not abuse but four smacks (not consecutive, one was on the shoulder before the first attempt at jump to encourage forward, one was after the first refusal, the other two were after the second refusal to get the horse going forward in a gallop, the jump judge said 4 smacks total at that fence) are "beating the crap" out of a horse?

Smacking a resistant horse with the whip to reinforce forward movement is not acceptable?

Taking your horse to an unrecognized event to see if the improvements shown while schooling are still evident in a competition atmosphere is not appropriate?


Where is that fruitbat...

I'm over here. Go ahead and call them "smacks," if it makes you feel better. I'm cracked up by "resistant" and "disobedient," too. Put your fingers in your ears and sing along with me:"tra la la la la, it has NOTHING to do with my riding, it's my RESISTANT HORSE'S fault, I'm not listening to you mean old snot-nosed jump judge."

deltawave
Jun. 13, 2007, 04:27 PM
Part of "riding" is "using the aids". The whip is (last time I checked) an aid. Nothing wrong with using it, for pity's sake, if the situation demands.

EnviroGA
Jun. 13, 2007, 04:35 PM
I eat meat :)
I own a purebred dog that I rescued from a shelter :)
I purchased a purebred dog from a responsible breeder as my Search and Rescue dog :)
I support animal rescues, but I don't support PETA :)
I have great respect for volunteers of all types including "snot-nosed" or dried mucus ones at Events :)
I respect other persons and rules set forth :)
I think the proper sport to change to would be the beating of a dead horse :)

(And apparently, I'm a smiley addict)

BarnBrat
Jun. 13, 2007, 05:34 PM
Jlee clearly stated that she was at a starter trial in her first post and clarified that she was using the whip as an aid to forward in her second post. Even if she had smacked her horse four times consecutively behind her leg it was legal. (I think the title of this thread should be changed to 'You can smack your horse as many times as you want so long as it is used as an aid to go forward and not as a reprimand. So everyone grasps the concept. ;))

Now, from an observers viewpoint it could be argued that the smacks were a reprimand for either stopping at the fence (which goes back to what qualifies as an 'incident' and when does it end) or for being 'bucky and nappy' (however bucking in the manner described is only a refusal to move forward, so the use of the whip as an aid is warrented). Had she used her whip after turning her horse toward the fence and presenting again it could not have been an issue.

Maybe an incident should be defined as 'after a disobediance and ending when the horse is turned toward and presented to the obstacle again.' Of course this leaves out the person who is almost jumped out of the tack and regains their seating and then wails on the horse. But in that case the use of the whip would clearly be as a reprimand and not as an aid to move forward.

I think my head hurts. :lol: And the bottom line is next to impossible to make a rule that encompasses ever situation. :)

JSwan
Jun. 13, 2007, 06:25 PM
I think it was the Dalai Lama that said:

"Know the rules, so that you may break them effectively."

Jleegriffith
Jun. 13, 2007, 07:32 PM
Well I guess a few select posters must have perfect horses that do not ever refuse jumps or act nappy. Sorry if I tend to ride an endless stream of green horses who are mostly ottb's or horses other's chose to give up on b/c they have some sort of issue. These type happen to be my favorite as I find proper riding and setting boundaries can do wonders:D I find that young horses tend to go through stages and at times you have to be assertive that you are the boss. If anyone slows down to read for comprehension I said it was a starter trial. I had schooled before the starter trial. I felt like I was ready and would not have taken him if I wasn't. Yes, you can go schooling but the boogey fences may or not be a problem in schooling. In the context of an actual course a horse might refuse a jump or get behind your leg for many reasons. I think this happens to the best of riders as I have seen many of the top riders riding their young horses and having issues. You see people using the stick in the air to emphasize forward is that abuse? How about using the stick on landing b/c a horse is stalling in the air? When a horse refuses b/c don't understand the question I don't normally punish them b/c I don't think that helps. I can understand how they might not have figured out he question but he knew the question and had successfully jumped it just the week prior so that isn't the case. This horse just thought he could quit when he wanted to. At home and at schoolings he was lovely..so only way to test it is to try it out at a starter trial. I take plenty of lessons with the best of the best and make sure I am riding properly and dealing with the issues correctly. I was told my several people he was a challenging horse with a pony brain and thought he could get out of work. When you made him work he got pissed and you had to push through it.

Perhaps this is why their is the quote don't go into battle without your weapons? Why most top clinicans request you come wearing a martingale, spurs and a whip. I would never beat my horse but all horses need different methods of discipline. I kick pretty well but sometimes you have to back it up if the kick isn't working. You kick and get no response..kick again? What is your next step? I guess nobody thinks a horse should be smacked more than once? It's okay for them to disrespect the rider and buck and kick out when rider uses the leg and asks them to go forward? Wow, I must be one horrible person but my horses are respectful and they will go forward. Without forward you have nothing else and you will have a horse that refuses.

It's easy to make generalized statements about incidents. My horse is a different horse this year. We just did plantation (starter trial) last weekend to make sure the issues were gone. He had a blast and was totally forward and we ended up 4th in a tough division with clean jumping. He's 6yrs old. He has learned I am the boss. Leg means forward. Whip means forward. If he throws a fit I won't give up. Sometimes horses need tough love and it's not always pretty.

arnika
Jun. 13, 2007, 07:48 PM
Jleegriffith, nicely said. I agree with every word.

I've ridden sweet horses that do everything you asked the first time. I've ridden youngsters who sometimes didn't understand what I was asking and sometimes just flat out didn't want to do what I was asking. I've also ridden tough horses that needed retraining that they had to listen and react properly when asked. All require a different type of ride but most importantly, all required learning at some point that they must behave for safety's sake. Both mine and theirs.

The whip is an appropriate aid just as much as your weight, seat and legs.

Sobriska
Jun. 13, 2007, 08:53 PM
I won't say that using the whip to get the horse to go forward is abuse.
But, if you have a horse that is refusing, nappy, bucking and needing to be shown who is boss, perhaps he needs a new job? Or a serious look into why he does not want to/or is not able to do what you are asking?

bornfreenowexpensive
Jun. 13, 2007, 09:15 PM
I won't say that using the whip to get the horse to go forward is abuse.
But, if you have a horse that is refusing, nappy, bucking and needing to be shown who is boss, perhaps he needs a new job? Or a serious look into why he does not want to/or is not able to do what you are asking?


I know the horse and watched Jlee work through his issues. He is now doing extremely well. He was a nappy obnoxious pony and a tough ride....it was a stage made worse by having a bad start before Jlee got him. While Jlee had issues with ditches I believe that it had more to do with him picking that point to battle with her and not because he was afraid of ditches. He now jumps them fine but he had to learn to respect his rider and to go forward when kicked...and Jlee had to learn about riding this particular horse (as we all do when working with green horses). This came through TRAINING. Yes a few battles when jumping and lots of dressage work and lots of postitive confidence boosting jumping experiences as well. Part of training a horse may require public training at shows. You do what you can at home but horses know when they are in a show situation and the smart bratty ones will try and take advantage of the situation until they learn now matter what, you are going to keep riding and training even if it is at an event....and that is where the lower cost starter events can be a real advantage.


Yes....there comes a point when you have to really decide does this horse want this job. But not all of us ride made horses and not all green horses are easy...and you have to give those tougher horses a little more time to see if they are going to work out....sometimes they do...and sometimes they don't....but I find it nice when someone takes the time to try and work through the issues of a tougher green horse....otherwise some of those horses end up with fates far worse then having their butt spanked a few times.

Dr. Doolittle
Jun. 13, 2007, 09:51 PM
I just wanted to say in response to the posts by jlee and bornfree...Touche'! ;)

These are excellent (and salient) points, and I don't know many of us who have been around horses for awhile (riding, training, competing) and who can't relate to what they say--training takes time, repeated exposures to new experiences, and constant reminders to the horse as to what its job is (incuding positive *as well as* negative reinforcement, wherever and whenever necessary!), as well as flexibility...smart and experienced trainers know that every horse is different; some need *more* mileage (or "persuasion", or "assertive riding")--some need less. The bottom line is that if over a "reasonable period of time" it proves NOT to be a positive experience for either horse or rider, than maybe the training or career should be re-evaluated...However, in the case of most horses, patient, methodical training (including timely corrections when they don't do as asked--when they KNOW how to do as asked, and are not confused/afraid) will set the horse on the right path--at which point the corrections won't *need* to be more than a "reminder tap or two". :D (Or a little more leg, or voice :))

Until you reach that point, a horse who is "giving you the middle finger" in order to test you needs to have that attitude addressed ASAP, or the testing will never end! ;)

Jleegriffith
Jun. 13, 2007, 10:04 PM
Sobriska- I totally agree with you. Some horses are just telling you they don't want to do the job and you need to know when it's time to throw in the towel. I have had those types and made those decisions. He was totally brave to everything and it never was an issue of not wanting to jump or not liking eventing. He just thought giving me the middle finger was a fun thing to do. I double checked all the main culprits for misbehavior first before getting the reality of he's just being an a** which my trainers all confirmed.

BF-thanks for backing me up. You got to witness many of his interesting antics and were very encouraging at times..other times I knew you probably though he was a waste of my time and I would have agreed:D

Shows were always really tough because I feared he would have an attack of pony and I would have to deal with it. I probably did offend some people who thought wow she's really getting after him or he shouldn't be here. Heck he bucked for 2hrs straight during a lucinda green clinic..I wanted to crawl under a rock but she gave me some of the best advice of anyone including the advice to get inside his pony brain and make him realize bad=more work. Every single time he started his brat behavior I galloped him. Second day of the clinic he was a different animal.

I guess that is why I try not to judge anyone because we all have our struggles and you don't know what a particular person's past is and why they might be using their whip. I know abuse when I see it but I thankfully haven't seen a lot of it. I can tell you if I had hit this horse in the wrong way he would have made me pay. It was tactfully done..if there is such a thing as having to discipline a naughty boy who is bucking and kicking out in the middle of cross country when you are trying to approach a jump in a forward manner:lol:

At my last event, I had at least three people come up and comment who was my new horse..nope the same one but he has really changed both physically and mentally. I bet he could have went down a very bad path in life if I hadn't taken a shot at him.

Whisper
Jun. 13, 2007, 11:35 PM
I had something quite similar come up the first time I jump judged. The briefing didn't really cover the whip rule in much depth, though I had read it (and interpreted the "incident" as meaning you could only use it 3 times in a row, then needed to wait a bit before using it again). A girl on a pony came cantering in to the Elementary fence. He might have been a little sucked back, but didn't break to a trot, run out, or otherwise disobey. She hit him three times before the fence, fairly hard, but not enough so that any harm seemed likely (I have a hearing loss, and it sounded quite loud), then after he landed, hit him at the same intensity 4 or 5 more times in a row. I wasn't sure, since it was a schooling show, if they wanted me to eliminate her or if they wanted to warn her, so I noted it down on the score sheet and discussed it with the organizers when I brought in my score sheet. They decided to eliminate her, and said they would discuss it with her and her trainer, specifically saying it was better that it happen at an unrecognized show than at a recognized show, so it wouldn't go on her record for excessive use of the whip. Since the pony didn't actually stop, and she wasn't hitting hard enough to leave marks or do any actual damage, and all of the strikes were behind the girth, I guess she should have been allowed to place after all?

bornfreenowexpensive
Jun. 14, 2007, 07:43 AM
BF-thanks for backing me up. You got to witness many of his interesting antics and were very encouraging at times..other times I knew you probably though he was a waste of my time and I would have agreed:D




Never thought he was a waste of your time....he was always obviously a talented horse/pony. And when I saw his antics at the ditch in your lesson, I knew that he could get past it with the right rides. Not sure I would have put up with him....but then again, I put up with my own boy's rearing antics and now people don't believe me when I tell them he had a nasty rear as a young horse (both on the ground and under saddle). Again, I ruled out the pain route and addressed the issue with training....now he is quite a nice horse as well. You hate to have to address some of those things in public but it happens....and a good horseman never stops training.

A whip used correctly (NOT in anger) and with the right timing is an important training aid (one needed when they ignore your leg). If I felt the need from a training perspective to use it in an event.....the fact that I might be "E" wouldn't factor into my decision since I'm there to ride and train my horse....One event is just one event when what I am hoping to accomplish is to train a horse that has a lifetime of successful events. That is often the biggest difference among competitors....one novice or training level event is NOT my destination point.....so I view all events at that level as a type of schooling (although some end up being more "schooling" then others, most are fun, smooth and postive experiences for the horse since the homework and ground work has been done first).

danosaur
Jun. 15, 2007, 12:11 PM
worse yet buys a purebred instead of rescuing from a kill-shelter,

well, I guess me and my purebred oldenburg are downright sinners, hm?

myboyludy
Jun. 16, 2007, 07:53 PM
I am both a "snort nossed fence judge" and a rider... also a show jump steward and dressage scribe... but thats besides the point. it is your fault for not knowing the 3 hit rule.. and you shouldnt go to your stick like that anyway.. its leg to fence not stick to fence.. im glad that the judge called it out. not enough people are being called out on things and they are getting sloppy... im sorry that you feel cheated but if i did something like that i would expect to be called out as well

galwaybay
Jun. 18, 2007, 12:27 AM
Pardon me I cannot reply to this post as am stuffed from my surf & turf dinner which I enjoyed after my purchase of several purebred dogs and cats which I will not neuter or spayed because I am a snot-nosed meat eating jump judge. A ridiculous diatribe on the OP's part