Why not TB's? [Archive] - Chronicle Forums

Thomas_1

Jun. 10, 2007, 04:45 AM

When I competed fei singles, pairs and tandems it was with hot bloods. An anglo/arab and a t/b. I also drove a team of them at National level. At that time I was the only person to so do. To my certain knowledge there's another 3 folks now compete fei level with them. I don't personally know of anyone at the lower levels though.

I train people to drive at all levels and up to high level competition standard. I've only ever had 2 other people drive my hot blood pair what I would call really successfully and they're top teams drivers and I mean TOP. I've had other fei pairs drivers 'have a go' with them and they've been fine walking about and doing dressage but they've 'bottled out' and given me the reins and said I was mad for driving them cross country and cones and they've dessimated cones courses in the process.

I am going to tell you "why not" but first of all I must declare that if I could only own one horse that it would most probably be a Thoroughbred, or maybe a pure bred Arab or if I could cheat then perhaps roll them up into an Anglo Arab.

I must also declare a long standing and inherited passion for the breed. My ancestors (and namesake) were responsible for importing Darley Arabian into the UK in the 18th century and of course it was that horse (and 2 other stallions) that led to the development of the Thoroughly Blood Bred horse - which in turn got shortened to become the Thoroughbred. My father, grandfather and great grandfather all trained point-to-pointers and steeplechasers and I've done the same.

So the purpose of this posting is to discuss their conformation and type and I guess to open up the opportunity to have a debate about its qualities and why its so good at what it does and also why there's a lot that aren't that good at all.

The t/b is the fastest horse over its distances in the world and its the most expensive of all breeds and as such forms the basis of the multi-million racing industry. Its the supreme equine athlete.

Despite many efforts, no-one has been able to develop a faster breed over the distance and there's been nothing at all done in the past 100 years to improve the t/b itself - racing times have not become faster, in the same way as human athletes. Records are rarely broken.

It took about 200 years to develop this breed and maximise its potential as a superb racehorse.

There was most definitely a certain amount of luck in its early development and including diarised occasion of Darley Arabian escaping and serving a farmer's mare! However she was a useful sort and the resultant foal was a cracker.

It was the development of the t/b that led to the real understanding of the part that selective breeding played in producing a purpose bred horse.

In the context of conformation and purpose the T/B is testament to the fact that this is critical and its not chance that the t/b is the fastest breed. Early development meant that they all had to prove themselves on the track and breeding aims were purely focussed on speed.

Up to the early 1800's race distances ranged from 4 to 12 miles and weights carried were up to 170 lbs! And horses earned their places in the finals by running a series of heats. So this meant that the horses had to be mature and endowed with tremendous courage and stamina. They only stood to about 14.2.

Then distances shortened and so the type was changed. They didn't need to be so tough and so were given more warmth and food as well as selected differently to breed and gradually they became taller and faster and in the 19th century their height increased by 6 inches to an average of 16 hands and speeds increased. By the 1850's they'd already reached their zenith for speed and type and there's been little change since then.

So its been developed into several types:

As a flat racehorse and at their best as 3 year olds over 1 - 1 3/4 miles. Known as "classic" distances.

Then there's sprints - 5 - 7 furlongs. Best suited to horses that mature early and have great speed but little stamina

Races that test stamina are for later maturing stayers. Those are more angular and leggy than the compact sprinters with their powerful quarters. Consequently there are 3 categories of flat race t/b: the sprinter, the classic or middle distance horse and the stayer.

Then there's the fourth category - and my personal favourite - those who also jump. They race in steeple chase also known as point to point or national hunt - so called because originally it was cross country races by gentlemen from one village church (steeple or point) to another and the horses were always hunted too to prove their fitness and ability to qualify for their race. Or there's the final category: hurdle racing. (often used as an early proving and training ground for steeple chasers)

These ones must have stamina, toughness and boldness and an ability to jump exceptionally well at speed.

t/b's are purpose bred for each of the disciplines and hence its why they vary so much in type and temperament and to a minor degree in conformation. There are distinct different requirements for each category.

Of course t/b's are often used for other disciplines: and hunting and eventing and jumping and dressage spring to mind. It goes without saying that a purpose bred and trained steeple chase horse is highly likely to make a good eventer and cross country jumper but its less likely to make an exceptional purist dressage horse. For the latter substance and a good temperament so the horse can work in harmony with the rider are required and its difficult to breed those criteria into a t/b because the major criterion for breeders for 300 years has been speed so they can beat other horses. So consequently they're often bred most successfully with other breeds of calmer and more robust horses to produce a horse for sport rather than for racing. Of course if your passion is classic horse trials or 3 day eventing, then a t/b of quality steeplechase type is going to be in the frame because they will generally out perform at the cross country phase, should be high end in show jumping element and if they're competing with other t/b's they'll do fine at dressage. However if there are the likes of Dutch Warm Bloods, they're going to out perform at the dressage phase and lumber round the cross country course. All things being equal in relation to training and riding skill that is.

Then when it comes to driving - it depends what sort of driving you want to do and what you are like as a driver. Arabs and T/B's are quick and sharp - and I just know that someone is likely to post and tell me their's is the quietest and best behaved in the world, but if it is, then that's different to quick and sharp and if its not those 2 things, then its not well-bred and true to type and purpose.

Personally I've never had more of a problem with a t/b doing the likes of spooking and being stupid than with a lot of other breeds, but they're quick and when they do act its quick. They're quick to learn and that is bad and good and you tend to have to do everything spot on right with them. Trust me you don't get away with things with a t/b. Everyone who's owned them in number knows that you HAVE to always handle them properly and the day you don't, they have accidents or cause you to or even to have a close shave. They're just not forgiving of error, slowness, incompetence, sloppy technique. So when it comes to a carriage horse, you wouldn't get away with harnessing a T/B up without heading it, without have good experienced people to help you, without REALLY good, quick and precise rein handling. Without approaching 'obstacles' correctly and accurately. And at the risk of being contentious with having your reins as if you were a rider - and incidentally the 2 other people I know that drive them fei also don't drive rein in each hand.

With my welsh section D's, warmbloods, friesians, Lipezzaners indeed all the other traditional carriage horses you've time to think, give a command, wait for it, and then the horse acts. T/B's go as you think and the VERY second you put the command on. I joke about my others and often say "come left" and add "any time today" but I tell you something, now I'm getting older and my reaction time is a little slower, I'd rather drive them any day of the week. Its more 'pleasurable' and I don't have to have my wits about me every second.

I used a hot blood pair because they competed with each other and I used that so that they absolutely blew other competitors away over cross country and cones and could produce decent dressage tests compared to other competitors. But same as in ridden work, they don't have the flashy, showy higher knee action with good forward movement at trot and its that which tends to mark a good carriage horse.

Would I recommend a T/B for a driving horse. NO WAY.

rcloisonne

Jun. 10, 2007, 05:33 AM

Marvelous, informative post, Thomas! As an Arab fancier, try as I might, I can't disagree with a thing. :)

RidesAHaflinger

Jun. 10, 2007, 06:50 AM

This should be required reading for all newcomers who are wondering if their <insert breed of choice> would make a good driving horse. It's not simply a matter of whether or not your horse is suited to driving. You also need to carefully consider where you are in terms of your own temperament, age, goals, reaction times, etc. The paragraph below sums this up very well. I took up driving 5 years ago at the age of 48, after a lifetime of riding. I can tell you that with all the novice errors I've made along the way and the unexpected misadventures that seem to weave themselves into the fabric of my days, I probably wouldn't be here to tell the tale if I were driving anything other than my very forgiving, laid-back and purpose-bred Haflingers. As it is, I can honestly say I go out expecting to have fun every day with my horses. I contrast that with people I see who are ashen-faced and looking very nervouse when they set out for a drive and I'm glad I'm not in their shoes. It's supposed to be fun, isn't it? :yes: My horses aren't going to set the world on fire with speed and agility but at my age and driving experience level, that's perfectly OK with me. Be realistic and honest about evaluating your horse AND yourself and you'll have a perfectly wonderful time with driving.

With my welsh section D's, warmbloods, friesians, Lipezzaners indeed all the other traditional carriage horses you've time to think, give a command, wait for it, and then the horse acts. T/B's go as you think and the VERY second you put the command on. I joke about my others and often say "come left" and add "any time today" but I tell you something, now I'm getting older and my reaction time is a little slower, I'd rather drive them any day of the week.

pricestory

Jun. 10, 2007, 07:04 AM

In this area, we have 2 X-ADS presidents who drive TB. Barbie Black drives a single and Lyle Peterson drives a pair. Althought Barbies guy can do a great dressage, cones, and marathon, he is an internal worrier and she does well to keep him composed to show how nice he is. Lyle's pair can be very nice or very scarey.
Neither makes me want to get in the box with them.

Big Belgian

Jun. 10, 2007, 07:31 AM

Many people who poo-poo the TB breed don't have the mind to train or live with them. They definitely can be quick to react, and often times are two steps ahead of the trainer when being worked with. Some can be very opinionated and you had best find a way during training sessions to improvise work arounds so they believe what you want them to do is THEIR idea.

Of course, each horse is an individual and it might take a few false starts to find a TB that works well as a driving horse. Our driving club has a couple who not only drive a 4 in hand of TBs, they also double duty as their hunt horses too. Not bad for hot cha cha TBs!

Thomas_1

Jun. 10, 2007, 07:43 AM

I can tell you that with all the novice errors I've made along the way and the unexpected misadventures that seem to weave themselves into the fabric of my days, I probably wouldn't be here to tell the tale if I were driving anything other than my very forgiving, laid-back and purpose-bred Haflingers. As it is, I can honestly say I go out expecting to have fun every day with my horses. I contrast that with people I see who are ashen-faced and looking very nervouse when they set out for a drive and I'm glad I'm not in their shoes. It's supposed to be fun, isn't it? My horses aren't going to set the world on fire with speed and agility but at my age and driving experience level, that's perfectly OK with me. Be realistic and honest about evaluating your horse AND yourself and you'll have a perfectly wonderful time with driving. SOOOOOOOO true and an absolutely profound piece of rock solid advice based on what is clearly real and relevent experience.

Althought Barbies guy can do a great dressage, cones, and marathon, he is an internal worrier and she does well to keep him composed to show how nice he is. Lyle's pair can be very nice or very scarey.
Neither makes me want to get in the box with them. I can entirely relate and I always feel that driving my hot bloods is a resonsibility and a challenge and exciting. You're always on the edge of brilliance or disaster. Driving 'proper' driving horses is a pleasure and enjoyable and fun and if I choose to, I can make it exciting and challenging.

All my driving horses are ride and drive and so all do ridden work of different sorts too. My t/b's have either evented or raced over jumps

And since posting I've had my wife find this old photo and scan it to show just how much fun you (I :eek:) can have with them .... or to put it another way .... how much trouble you can get in to.

Who on earth had the stupid idea to make a marathon hazard just the same as a hurdling fence! :no::eek: As you can see though, from the nonchalant look, I'm not a person who panics!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/Driving/disasterwithahurdle0010.jpg

Renae

Jun. 10, 2007, 07:47 AM

Poor horse, he looks very confused, like he's wondering why the rest of you didn't jump with him :sadsmile:

Thomas_1

Jun. 10, 2007, 08:05 AM

Rennae,

In actual fact that is exactly what we said at the time. He actually tried to race the horse next to him and that VERY nearly went over the jump with him. It was a miracle (though some said - really quick thinking and good rein handling etc) that I managed to stop the wheelers going too!

Renae

Jun. 10, 2007, 09:03 AM

Ugh, that would have been quite a wreck if the team would have jumped and the front wheels of the carriage stopped abrupt at the obstacle. I'm glad everything turn out for the better!

Tamara in TN

Jun. 10, 2007, 09:03 AM

Who on earth had the stupid idea to make a marathon hazard just the same as a hurdling fence! :no::eek: As you can see though, from the nonchalant look, I'm not a person who panics!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/Driving/disasterwithahurdle0010.jpg

oh !!!!!!!!!!!! that pic made me laugh til I cried....the whole team is standing there wondering patiently why they are standing in the water....and the cause of it all not the least bit concerned :lol::lol: broke horses are a wonderful thing....

Tamara in TN

Thomas_1

Jun. 10, 2007, 09:56 AM

I'm convinced that the wheeler that you can see has turned to his partner and is saying "And that's another fine mess he got us in. "

And at least the miscreant has the decency to look vaguely ashamed!

Though as you can tell by their general disposition and ears, none are troubled at all! Just another everday occurrence driving t/b's!!!

Auventera Two

Jun. 10, 2007, 10:54 AM

In the Arabian world there's a saying that I think holds true for TBs as well: To train a horse, you must be 10% smarter than the horse. And with Arabs, fewer people qualify. ;)

I grew up with TBs and TB/WB crosses. They are fantastic, intelligent, highly trainable horses.

We have a western trainer here who says that the only horse he will not even touch is a TB. He says there ain't a single of them that deserves the oxygen they consume to stay alive. And not surprisingly, this is also the same trainer who ruined a WB mare I know, and tried to ruin my Arab, but I stopped that party right fast. ;)

Anyway - I love John Lyons. JL gives an interesting little story at his clinics that says this: Imagine you are a school teacher and you go to a parent and tell the parent, "I'm a great teacher. In fact, I'm a fantastic teacher. But I can't do a thing with your kid. Your kid is stubborn, dumb, bull headed, and worthless. If I were you, I'd just try to give that kid away to somebody else and get a GOOD kid. Bring that GOOD kid back to me and I'll gladly teach him for you."

And so we do this with our HORSES, who essentially are like children. They have to be taught, molded, socialized, cared for, and reared much in the same way you do a child. But yet we allow our trainers to talk about our horses this way. And we talk about the horses this way ourselves. And we think it's acceptable.

A good trainer NEVER transfers blame to the poor dumb animal. NEVER. A good trainer always recognizes his/her own shortcomings, downfalls, failures, and then tries and tries again until they get it right. A good trainer, just like a good school teacher, doesn't put the blame off on someone else but instead objectively approaches the situation and makes changes accordingly so that success CAN be reached.

I've worked with Arabs, TBs, WBs, TWHs, a Saddlebred, two Lipizzaners, QHs, an Akhal Teke, and various ponies, and I've never met a horse yet that I considered to be difficult, useless, or a waste of time. I used to exercise a pure Impressive bred QH gelding for a woman that everyone was afraid of because he was too big, too dominant, and too hot. I did some lessons on him, took him for trail rides, jumped him, and generally just had a blast! I didn't try to assign blame for his challenges, but just looked for more creative ways to address them.

Tamara in TN

Jun. 10, 2007, 10:56 AM

Though as you can tell by their general disposition and ears, none are troubled at all! Just another everday occurrence driving t/b's!!!

right right :yes::yes: they are saying....

"Well....the Boss is waiting for something....I guess??? ....<shrug>....who knows with him??" :lol:

just a great photo....thank you for it

Tamara in TN

hitchinmygetalong

Jun. 10, 2007, 11:02 AM

What an absolutely marvelous thread. Thank you, Thomas!

Christa P

Jun. 10, 2007, 11:44 AM

I had a TB (Chesnut mare even :lol:) that I drove. Before I got her she raced for 3 years and did some time in a show hunter barn, then I trained her for eventing and trail riding before she was trained to drive at 9. I remember the trainer that hooked the first time commenting driving her was like trying to turn a wet noodle. He was used to Morgans and she was long and supple with a nice long neck.

Her reaction the first time she was hooked (after extensive ground work) was to try to run backwards about 4 steps, got a look of "that doesn't work", kicked the cart ONCE with ONE hind foot, got the same look, and then drove off like she had been driving for years. I went on to show her in Pleasure and Combined driving and she even went in a few parades. Her last few shows she did turn into a smart aleck. She would warm up beautiful and then as soon as I took her in the ring she would go into giraffe mode :(.

I will agree that TBs are NOT the best choice for driving horses. I currently drive a pair of POA cross ponies and when I do want another driving horse it will probably be a STB, though I LOVE TBs I would only try driving another one if it had proven itself in other ways that it would be a good driving horse :yes:.

Christa P

Thomas_1

Jun. 10, 2007, 11:46 AM

I've worked with Arabs, TBs, WBs, TWHs, a Saddlebred, two Lipizzaners, QHs, an Akhal Teke, and various ponies, and I've never met a horse yet that I considered to be difficult, useless, or a waste of time. Interesting take. So are you saying the trainer is wrong for not wanting to take T/B'S as driving horses?

You also made much mention of John Lyons. I'm not really aware of his work, so perhaps you could help me, which hot blood driving horses has he trained?

And how would you train the hot bloods to drive and how did you find them? Or are you talking about riding horses and things in general??

Thomas_1

Jun. 10, 2007, 11:49 AM

I currently drive a pair of POA cross ponies
Christa P Christa,

Please help me..... What's a POA cross pony??

Tamara in TN

Jun. 10, 2007, 12:05 PM

Christa,

Please help me..... What's a POA cross pony??

Ponies of the Americas....Knapstruber/appaloosa/british spotted ponies marked,western type ponies and

in the beginning....:D they were mainly crossed on welsh A's and quarter horses...now they are almost totally midget QH's

Tamara in TN

Auventera Two

Jun. 10, 2007, 12:30 PM

Interesting take. So are you saying the trainer is wrong for not wanting to take T/B'S as driving horses?

And how would you train the hot bloods to drive and how did you find them? Or are you talking about riding horses and things in general??

A trainer can accept whatever they want. I don't think it's "right" or "wrong." But a trainer is wrong when they blame the horse because it's a __________ (fill in the blank.) To make a blanket statement that all TBs are junk shows how inept the trainer is. People have preferences of course, but just because I "prefer" Arabians doesn't mean that __________ (fill in the blank) are worthless.

I trained my mother's TBs to long line and ground drive. We never had a cart so they were never hitched. I was commenting in general regarding TBs, their personalities and trainability. It's a red flag to me when a trainer blames a horse based upon breed.

Renae

Jun. 10, 2007, 12:52 PM

Christa,

Please help me..... What's a POA cross pony??

The orginal POAs (Pony of Americas) were Shetland Pony/Appaloosa crosses. They also have some Quarter Horse, Arabian and Welsh Pony added in. They are to be western-type ponies with Appaloosa marking and a little more refined head like an Arab or pretty Welsh Pony. http://www.poac.org/breed/history.htm

Christa P

Jun. 10, 2007, 12:53 PM

POA = Pony of the Americas, basicly a pony sized appaloosa.

My gelding was a rescue and doesn't have any papers, but he would meet the breed standard. The mare is by the gelding (we rescued him as a 3 yr old stallion and bred him to 1 mare) and also has the POA coloring. She is out of a draft pony mare that she had been bred for weight pulling contests.

Both ponies are 12H and they are well matched, though not perfect.

Christa

RidesAHaflinger

Jun. 10, 2007, 12:55 PM

Christa P

Jun. 10, 2007, 12:59 PM

Renae

Jun. 10, 2007, 01:03 PM

Here we go again. :eek: Auventura Two, no one made any such comment about TB's here and I don't believe any of the drivers on this forum *would* make any such comment. I've owned three TB x's in my life and they were talented horses. I would not have chosen to drive any of them, given the 3 individual horses concerned, but they surely weren't junk to me. Cool your jets a bit and read what people are saying. Some breeds of horses are better suited to certain jobs than other breeds of horses. That statement in no way impugns the integrity or value of any breed of horses.

I was just going to say the same thing. You have a breed that for over a century has been bred for running and in a smaller part running and jumping. You hae other breeds that for over a century have been bred for driving. In general, if you were to pick joe blow horse from the Thoroughbred breed and Joe Blow horse from a driving breed which one is more likely to make the safe driving horse for the amateur hobbyist? The horse from the breed bred to be suitable for driving. Of course there are examples of the opposite in each case, but in general the reason why you see Standardbreds, Saddlebreds, Hackneys, Friesians, Welsh Cobs, Morgans, Dutch Harness Horses, Gelderlanders, Cleveland Bays, Kladrubers, Lipizzans, Haflingers, Fjords and the like in harness is these are breeds that have been selectivey bred for work in harness or as dual purpose horses for quite some time. No one has said you can't drive a Thoroughbred, but you don't see as many of them proportionatly doing work in harness compared to the proportion in the general population because they have not been selectively bred to be the type of horse as a whole that is suitable for the work.

War Admiral

Jun. 10, 2007, 01:23 PM

I must say that I do disagree with driving trainers who flat-out refuse to take ANY TB and claim they are too dangerous to drive. I think that's breed prejudice pure and simple. As any trainer *should* know, you have got to evaluate each horse as an individual, regardless of its breed. I can think of QH (Penny being the classic example) that would be way more dangerous to drive than my TB. :D There are exceptions to every rule.

Funny story in this regard though - a BNDT who had refused to take Avery on the "he's a TB" grounds subsequently showed up at the in-gate of a pleasure show at the same time we did. While the Friesian cross (I think it was, or Canadien cross or something "more suitable" like that) that he was training fussed and fumed, Avery did what every sensible ex "A" Circuit horse does when it gets sent to the in-gate too early: he took the opportunity to catch a snooze. :D As my TB dozed off while the BNDT and 2 grooms attempted to keep their horse's 4 feet on the ground, the BNDT, quite to his credit I thought, burst out laughing and said "Wow. Yeah. Those Thoroughbreds. They're WAY too hot to drive!" :D The punchline is that the "more suitable" horse ended up washing out of driving after a brief 2-year career (of which I could tell much more, but won't). The "unsuitable TB" is still happily taking beginners for little drives 5 years later.

I've never had anything else but TBs (and one ASB early on) and trained my current TB to drive after he had had a long successful career as an amateur jumper. Several things worked in my favor from day one:

1. Temperament and attitude. HRH Avery did not want to retire and he wanted a job. With TBs, so much of whether they will be successful or not depends on their attitude and whether they "take to" their new job or not. Avery did take to it. He is preternaturally bright (and I say this as a 40+-year owner/trainer of Smart TBs - I don't like stupid so I don't buy stupid, but I've only had one other as bright as this guy) and he loffs to learn new things and show off what he knows. He's also a big, relaxed, phlegmatic Oirish Harse with a boatload more common sense than those w/ more typically "American" pedigrees.

2. He had no inherent conformational issues that would preclude driving him - other than the shark-fin withers, which I still think would cause him problems with harness saddle fit if we were doing anything strenous like combined driving. Conformation IMO is the biggest problem anyone who wants to drive a TB is going to have. The horse must have a very strong and very well-conformed back end. If you look at the available CANTER TBs, I honestly see maybe 1-2 per *year* that have conformation that looks as if it would be up to the job. And *then* you've got to find the one with the right temperament - so you could be looking for quite a while...

3. He had been *very* well trained in his flatwork already, and had never been wrecked by bad riding, so no need to do anything remedial in that regard. He already knew his lateral work and so on, so it was really just a matter of teaching him "yes, you DO need to do that with the cart, too."

4. During the groundwork phase, I left absolutely NO stone unturned in my quest to make sure he completely understood his brief before I ever hitched him up. I've already said that he was never trained to go on roads or trails, so I spent 3 years ground-driving him out there until he learned what was expected. Another of the "holes" in his training that concerned me most was making DAMN sure he understood that jump posts are now for driving between, not jumping over. I had every intention of ending up with a horse who...

...is clearly plotting and planning how to jump these verticals, all right (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/goonrgrrl/avery/Avery_Nancy_ArenaHazards.jpg)... :D

So Avery and I invented a sport we called "Xtreme Ground Driving" specifically for this purpose. :D He was, in effect, ground driving arena hazards at walk, trot and canter for 8 months before he ever even *saw* a cart. Most pro trainers cannot afford to take this kind of time over a horse. If they cannot, or don't want to be bothered, then they probably should not try messing with TBs. ;) Thomas is quite correct that when training them, you have got to sweat the details, and you've got one shot to get it right. If you scare them, they will not forgive. And they are very quick - although in fairness I think most hotbloods are. You must pay attention every single second you drive them. But then again, you should be doing that anyway...

My mileage is very much the same as Big Belgian's, esp. as to TBs being 2 steps ahead of you. There were lots of times while training Avery that I would run to my driving trainer or CD-L for help/advice only to find during the next schooling session that Avery had already worked out how to fix whatever issue we'd been having, and was ready to move on.

Hitching him for the first time was the biggest non-event in the history of the planet. Does this horse look stressed, worried or confused to you? (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/goonrgrrl/avery/avery_first_drive.jpg) I was prepared for fireworks and had 2 big strong guys heading him with longe lines, an ASB trainer in the box seat, and me at his head for consolation. He looked at me like "What are YOU so worried about? Did you seriously think I didn't see this coming 3-4 *weeks* ago?" Hitched him up and told him "walk, Avery" and, somewhat cautiously, away we went. Not a spook, not an instant's panic or worry. The ASB trainer was fascinated watching him work out How To Pull A Cart - said she'd never seen a horse TRY that hard to learn a new job, and that she could actually *see* him thinking things through and trying to learn how to handle things like soft spots in the arena footing.

So... In the final analysis, I believe TBs are perfectly driveable (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/goonrgrrl/avery/averyrtbend_sm.jpg) IF you find the right one in terms of temperament, brains and conformation, and IF you then take the time to train it properly.

Auventera Two

Jun. 10, 2007, 01:27 PM

I was commenting on Post #1 in which a trainer was referenced who outright refuses TBs simply on the pretense that they are TBs. And also we have a local trainer that does the same. I never said anyone HERE ever said any such thing. Sheesh people, read for comprehension.

In some cases a particular person might have one horse - a TB - and they want to drive. So go for it if you want to. Who cares that it's a TB, and TBs don't typically drive. People ride dressage on their cow ponies, and jump their Drafts. If that's all you have and want to make a go of it, then do it. Don't let someone tell you that you CAN'T based only on the idea that your horse is a TB (or whatever.) If you're not competitive against stronger competition, then oh well. But have fun doing what you're doing.

Auventera Two

Jun. 10, 2007, 01:29 PM

I've been working with a trainer that will not accept a TB on his farm let alone train one. He said he has tried in the past and they are not worth the time and money. Also, he feels that they can never be reliable as far as safety.

THIS is the comment to which I was referring. THIS particular trainer feels all TBs are junk. I happen to disagree.

War Admiral

Jun. 10, 2007, 01:33 PM

THIS is the comment to which I was referring. THIS particular trainer feels all TBs are junk. I happen to disagree.

And I'm with ya, Auventura.

RidesAHaflinger

Jun. 10, 2007, 01:44 PM

I stand corrected. Sorry I missed that! However, I did go back to read the first post more carefully and this is what I get from it: The OP said the trainer had tried training TB's to drive in the past and that it hadn't worked out for him. We don't know how many TB's he attempted to train and what the problems and outcomes were with each. The trainer might have had a string of experiences that led him to reach his conclusion. He is quoted as saying they were not worth the time and money to train and not reliable as far as safety. Those statements might be very true within his experience as a trainer. His actual position on the issue might be a far cry from labeling all TB's as "junk." We just don't know. For whatever reasons he came to his conclusion, he's within his rights to work with the horses he chooses to, just as the OP is within her rights to keep shopping for a trainer who will work with her horse.

She was commenting on a PARTICULAR Trainer (See post 1 in the thread) that refused to take on ANY TB to train for driving saying they were all useless. She was not making a general statement.

I agree, most TBs should not be driving, but THIS Trainer would not even evaluate ANY TB.

Christa

Trakehner

Jun. 10, 2007, 04:48 PM

TBs are lovely horses...and my preferred breed for hunters, both in the ring and chasing after the beasts.

I've also a friend who drives a 4-in-hand of nothing but chestnut TBs. One of his reasons...he can always find a chestnut TB that'll match what he's got in his team. He's got a field full of em' in fact.

TBs are wonderful guys...just not for the ill-trained or sloppy "passenger"...you ride a TB.

Thomas_1

Jun. 10, 2007, 04:50 PM

A trainer can accept whatever they want. I don't think it's "right" or "wrong." But a trainer is wrong when they blame the horse because it's a __________ (fill in the blank.) To make a blanket statement that all TBs are junk shows how inept the trainer is. People have preferences of course, but just because I "prefer" Arabians doesn't mean that __________ (fill in the blank) are worthless.

I trained my mother's TBs to long line and ground drive. We never had a cart so they were never hitched. I was commenting in general regarding TBs, their personalities and trainability. It's a red flag to me when a trainer blames a horse based upon breed.

So let me get this right:

basically your claimed experience is minimal but you have never trained a horse to drive, you don't know how to ground drive or is it long line
and you've never driven a harness horse.

But you've figured that a trainer whohas tried in the past and they are not worth the time and money. Also, he feels that they can never be reliable as far as safety is wrong. :confused:
In some cases a particular person might have one horse - a TB - and they want to drive. So go for it if you want to. Who cares that it's a TB, and TBs don't typically drive. And furthermore despite your lack of driving experience and driving training you have such forthright views mmm. Most interesting.
THIS particular trainer feels all TBs are junk. I happen to disagree Then you say the trainer thinks all T/B's are junk :no::confused: Where did you manage to read that? Suggest you might want to follow your own advice :yes:

Sheesh people, read for comprehension.

Or do you now have it in your mind that I think all T/B's are junk because of what I said about T/B's NOT generally making good driving horses?

Interesting take. You have opinions, I have knowledge and experience. There's a difference.

Gestalt

Jun. 10, 2007, 05:29 PM

Thank you everyone for your views. While it's great to purchase a horse that's bred for a specific task, many horses in the USA do not meet that requirement. We have a lot of horses that come from racing backgrounds that are then retrained to be useable (and loved) by ammy-owners.

The horse I took to the trainer is my Standardbred. He is doing fine and because I trust him, I enjoy him. I have another horse that the trainer said we can start when I'm ready. However he has flat refused to even consider the TB. I'm not holding this against him. As a person making his living from horses he has decided to accept into training the ones that he 'understands' and can get the best results from. I was just wondering if people that were already driving saw a huge problem with the TB's.

There were some very scary horses at the CDE's I've attended (as a volunteer) this past summer. And these horses are bred for driving. Several Morgans and a Fresian. Borderline crazy in my book.

My TB doesn't need to learn to drive. Right now his forte is standing in the pasture looking really pretty. And doing it well. :winkgrin:

Thank you again for your opinions and pictures!

Wellspotted

Jun. 10, 2007, 05:35 PM

Are most "Cleveland Bays" used in driving nowadays actually CBxTBs instead of pure CBs?

Thomas_1

Jun. 10, 2007, 05:41 PM

Are most "Cleveland Bays" used in driving nowadays actually CBxTBs instead of pure CBs? Not sure what you mean or which ones specifically you've seen or are thinking about?

But there's plenty of purebred Cleveland Bays driven and there's also t/b cross and not just with C/B. I've got a mass of t/b crossed with connemara and irish draft and cleveland bay and friesian

Thomas_1

Jun. 10, 2007, 05:42 PM

Ponies of the Americas....Knapstruber/appaloosa/british spotted ponies marked,western type ponies and

in the beginning....:D they were mainly crossed on welsh A's and quarter horses...now they are almost totally midget QH's
Tamara in TN thank you. I think that is what I'd call a "bitsa" :winkgrin:

War Admiral

Jun. 10, 2007, 08:01 PM

Not to derail the thread, but I'm kinda surprised Thomas didn't mention that back in the old days there was far more of a tradition of driving TBs than there is now.

George IV as Prince of Wales and his gentlemen friends used to do the equivalent of "drag racing" with fours of TBs hitched to a road coach. They would race them from post to post along the coaching roads. I don't mean all at once - they would go one at a time, and time it.

As an Arsenal FC fan, I was doing research on a project and in a passing conversation w/ the AFC librarian, discovered that back when Arsenal FC was based at an actual military facility called Dial Square Arsenal, while the enlisted men were starting a football team, the officers were starting one of the first ever tandem driving societies in GB. According to notes and journals the librarian was kind enough to dig out and quote for me, it was apparently considered quite sporting indeed among the young officers to drive a tandem of TBs. :yes: So it was definitely done, no question about it - but then as now it was not necessarily for the faint of heart! :D

Again, I agree w/ Auventura on the point that if you try to rush a TB, you're going to end up with a dangerous TB. This holds true no matter what discipline you are retraining it for. You need to break the data up into smaller chunks sometimes and let them process it more slowly.

Another point to be considered is that much though I loff my TBs, I'll be the first to admit that they are slow developers in the emotional sense and can act very immature for rather longer than other breeds. This is why, for my personal riding/retraining horses, I tend to look for older ones who are coming off the track at age 10 or 11. (Avery was 16 when I started him driving.) An older TB can quite often be the most sensible horse in any barn, but it does take them WAY longer to get to that point!

I also agree re sport horse bloodlines. Turn-To, for example (who features heavily in Avery's pedigree :D), is revered in sport horse circles, but many racing people this side of the pond have never even heard of him! If nothing else, owning and training Avery has convinced me of the validity of the Turn-To/Ribot cross both for racing AND sport (cf. Barbaro - Avery being much older has it at grandsire level). Dynaformer always was a stallion who was straight up my alley - but the problem is going to be finding cheap Dynaformers to make sport horses out of, now that he's the flavor of the week in racing! :D

Tamara in TN

Jun. 10, 2007, 08:07 PM

Not to derail the thread, but I'm kinda surprised Thomas didn't mention that back in the old days there was far more of a tradition of driving TBs than there is now.

! :D

there were more TB's driven in the old days but even in the old books it says that (paraphrased) "too much needless stopping annoys a high couraged horse"

Thomas will correct me but I have always thought that was referring to TB horses (Thomas ???)

also a cold blooded,heavy horse would lug against the hands and tire a coachman....and they also made allowances and recommendations for different horses for different terrains...hilly county used one sort of horse and long dead stretches used another and stop and go traffic used another... :yes:

Tamara in TN

Tamara in TN

Jun. 10, 2007, 08:09 PM

thank you. I think that is what I'd call a "bitsa" :winkgrin:

"bitsa" this and "bitsa" that ??? :winkgrin: I actually rode a 13.2 tri color leopard stallion to a southern Regional championship in the early 1990's...however, as with more minor minor breeds here,I was the only one in the class :lol::lol::lol:

Tamara in TN

War Admiral

Jun. 10, 2007, 08:16 PM

there were more TB's driven in the old days but even in the old books it says that (paraphrased) "too much needless stopping annoys a high couraged horse"

Sounds like the author knew his TBs all right. But the key word there is "needless". Avery is irked beyond belief if I stop to yap (unless of course he thinks there might be a cookie or better yet a Co-Cola in it for him :cool:), but if it's a stop to fix a piece of equipment or even just to take my jacket off or light a cig, he lodges no objections whatsoever and those feet stay PUT.

What I loff the most about driving Avery is those quick reflexes. I've told the story before about us at a pleasure show when my SO put the lamps in their brackets incorrectly and very loose. We went trotting briskly over a bump in the road and one lamp went FLYING into the air. Avery hit the brakes before I could even say "whoa" and before the lamp even started its way downward. I was ever so impressed. And was able to catch and save the lamp! :yes:

Renae

Jun. 10, 2007, 08:22 PM

I would have to say tough that the Thoroughbred of the late 18th century was a far different animal than the Throughbred of today. In the late 19th century when the National Saddle Horse Breeder's Association was being formed (now the American Saddlebred Horse Association) the criteria for entry into the studbook was the ability to perform the saddle gaits (smooth 4 beat gaits such as the slow gait and rack) and there wer straight Jockey Club Throughbreds that enetered the first few volumes of the Saddlebred book because they could rack. How many Thoroughbreds today possess the natural ability to rack? Just point that out to show how the breed has been honed for the #1 thing it has been bred for.

War Admiral

Jun. 10, 2007, 08:43 PM

No offense whatsoever, Renae, but can you quote me a source on the rackin' TBs?? I'm not saying it ain't so, but I've sure never heard of one. Name me some names.

Messenger and his son Mambrino were both full TBs (and foundation sires of both the STB and ASB) but they - and most of the other full TBs I've seen in ASB pedigrees - were known for their exceptional *trotting* capability, not racking.

I'll grant you that *surviving pictures* of Denmark (full TB) make him look a lot different than the TBs of now, but then so do pics of his ancestor Sir Archy, who was a brilliant race horse and most certainly didn't have a rack anywhere on him! :D We all know horse portraiture was grossly inaccurate for centuries. One of Avery's ancestors is the Royal Family's great race horse Persimmon, and I can show you any number of pics/prints of him that don't even look like they're the same horse, although they all purport to be!

I'm digging around right now in the back pages of Edna May's King's pedigree and I'm seeing bunches of familiar TB names (Diomed, Matchem, Herod, blah blah blah), none of whom racked so far as I am aware.

EDIT: OK, I may have to take this back, b/c if memory serves, I've seen references hinting that Old Potomac (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/old+potomac) - full TB who was also a foundation sire of the TWH - may have racked or at least had *some* kind of 4-beat gait on him.

Renae

Jun. 10, 2007, 09:08 PM

The Galloways and Hobbies were pacers as they said it at the time, and Arabians have always had the ability to do the easy saddle gaits, although in the west we have selctively bred them to be a trotting breed. So the foundation of the Thoroughbred was well able to perform easy gaits. Volume I of the National Saddle Horse Breeder's Association Stud Book (sorry I don't have a copy, kind of a rare expensive book) has 1081 entries, of them:
Thoroughbred...................................... .........3
Thoroughbred Blood 50%.............................50
Thoroughbred Blood 25%............................296
Thoroughbred Blood 12.5%.........................343
Thoroughbred Blood 6.25%.........................152
Thoroughbred Blood 3%...............................36
Uncertain......................................... ..........201

But my point was the Thourghbred of old Henry the VI's day would have been a much different horse than todays' animal. Hackney Horses would have been a new fangled thing (Old Shales was foaled in 1755) and the fine driving horse of the time in England was the Yorkshire Coach Horse, the result of crossing Thoroughbreds on Cleveland Bays.

War Admiral

Jun. 10, 2007, 09:59 PM

Well, but how different does this pic of the racing-fit Diomed (http://www.walkerswest.com/images/foundation/Diomed.jpg) (full TB, 1777, and again a foundation sire of ASB and TWH) look from the racing-fit Secretariat (http://horseracing.miningco.com/library/postcard/secretariat.jpg) (TB, 1970)? :D

It's sad, but the horse portraits of the time were sooooooooo inaccurate we're just never going to know for sure. They are in fact so inaccurate that it's quite possible to use them to bolster any and every debating point under the sun! Including yours - and mine. ;)

I am kinda curious - if you don't mind my asking - why you seem to be against driving TBs. I can think of plenty of ASBs who are much hotter than my preferred *type* of TB, and plenty that I wouldn't dream of sitting behind. (Those of us in these parts have NOT forgotten the late Found Treasure's brief "experiments" in Roadster and Fine Harness, if we can put it that way... They made Thomas' pic above look like the Low Slow Route!!) Seems to me that as a supporter of another breed that has a "crazy psychopath" reputation, you should be playing for Team TB here! :)

Gestalt

Jun. 10, 2007, 10:13 PM

Oh I can look at pics of racing TB's all day long, even inaccurate ones. :)

Some very good discussion happening here, I think the history of horse breeds is absolutely fascinating!

Back on track though. I guess I just don't think TB's are so hyper or skittish as compared to some of the horses I've seen already driving. I mean, have you guys seen horses that are wired for take-off before the start of the marathon? Yikes, they look like race horses warming up at the gate! Perhaps the difference is that even though the horses are frothying at the mouth and stepping on anybody around them, they are capable of 'whoaing', sort of and maybe a TB is not.

Dunno, maybe someday I'll send him to a trainer just "to see". Thanks all.

War Admiral

Jun. 10, 2007, 10:22 PM

Oh I can look at pics of racing TB's all day long, even inaccurate ones. :)

Back on track though. I guess I just don't think TB's are so hyper or skittish as compared to some of the horses I've seen already driving....

It just depends on the individual horse. Can you tell us any more about your boy - age, experience, training level, etc.?? We may be able to come up with some trainer names for you.

maybe they are capable of 'whoaing', sort of and maybe a TB is not.

I have (please God) never been bolted with in harness other than by a Hackney pony in the breed show ring when I was 10, but I've been bolted with by the best of several breeds under saddle, and I have to opine that I actually think a TB is easier to stop than any other breed. Here is why. When other breeds bolt, they bolt b/c they are truly genuinely scared to death, and they keep running b/c they are truly genuinely scared to death. A TB, OTOH, at *some* point during the bolting process, eventually stops running out of fear and starts running for FUN, b/c he loffs it and that's what TBs do. That is the point at which you can usually stop a TB without too much difficulty.

Just my experience though.

Thomas_1

Jun. 11, 2007, 03:14 AM

Not to derail the thread, but I'm kinda surprised Thomas didn't mention that back in the old days there was far more of a tradition of driving TBs than there is now.
:D Ah so glad you reminded me. :D:yes:

I've got some fantastic quotes in some of my old books about why and in what circumstances they were used and why they went to the warmblood types and they're going to be perfect quotes for this posting and to illustrate the point the OP's trainer was most likely making.

I'll trawl them out for you.

Though I notice that Tamara has already found one that I do recall.

I've got to say I'm always somewhat gob-smacked at some of the responses when there's a posting along the lines of "why can't shires be a race horse", "can my shetland event", "why not T/B's to drive", "want to do high level dressage with my arab but they're prejudiced"

In my mind some of the replies show a fundamental lack of understanding about selective breeding and what breeding true to type actually is and what its for.

If someone says that a thoroughbred will NEVER in a month of Sundays reach the epitomy of perfection required by say a classical horse in dressage (or insert what discipline you fancy) it doesn't mean that T/B's are junk or rubbish or they've not been trained right or the person is 'prejudiced' or needs to try harder, get out more, get more experience whatever. Consider they might just understand selective breeding principles and aims and objectives alongwith having an understanding of the conformation, temperament and ability of that breed.

It simply means that its hardly surprising and clearly the centuries of purpose breeding for temperament, type, form and function actually paid off!

The T/B was bred for something different and out performs all other breeds at the thing they were bred for. So go figure........ the centuries of selective breeding actually worked.

Personally I can't begin to understand why we can't appreciate the huge diversity in modern species of equus and why some haven't got their heads round the fact that selective breeding is the process of producing individuals of a given phenotype that will outperform anything that hasn't been bred to purpose for the job it (the phenotype) is being bred for.

I declared at the start an 'inherited' lifelong passion and enthusiam for T/B's and Arabs AND I've even been stupid enough (and successful) at driving them at the top level. But I'll tell you straight - NEVER and I mean NEVER EVER EVER EVER would I teach someone to drive with one or put one to harness for a novice driver or recommend them as a good driving horse or do such as a wedding with them for paying customers.

And I hasten to add that when my oldest daughter got married we used one of my fei t/b's which was also her eventing horse and I drove him there and she drove her husband away put to in an original Victoria. But the wedding had so many real horse people and real driving people there and real t/b experts and trainers, that you could smell the horse sh** a mile away. It was in enclosed private grounds and no one would have cared if said t/b did something wappy or took exception to things happening. Though got to say that Tracey's new husband looked a little terrified when Duke broke into a canter going across the lawns.

Thomas_1

Jun. 11, 2007, 03:26 AM

But my point was the Thourghbred of old Henry the VI's day would have been a much different horse than todays' animal. . There were no thoroughbreds during the time of Henry VI.

As I said in my earlier posting the Thoroughly blood bred horse was developed in England and from the following stallions with their dates: Byerley Turk (1680-1696), Darley Arabian (1700-1733) and the Godolphin Arabian (1724-1753). The name later changed to Thoroughbred.

There's been horse racing in England from before then and some of the horses used prior were in turn used to breed into those stallions but they weren't thoroughbreds. It was in fact during the reign of Charles II that racing first went to on a track and at first between just 2 horses

And so you can get your time scales. Charles II - 1630 to 1688 and Henry VI - 1421 - 1457

Thomas_1

Jun. 11, 2007, 04:09 AM

I have (please God) never been bolted with in harness other than by a Hackney pony in the breed show ring when I was 10, but I've been bolted with by the best of several breeds under saddle, and I have to opine that I actually think a TB is easier to stop than any other breed. Here is why. When other breeds bolt, they bolt b/c they are truly genuinely scared to death, and they keep running b/c they are truly genuinely scared to death. A TB, OTOH, at *some* point during the bolting process, eventually stops running out of fear and starts running for FUN, b/c he loffs it and that's what TBs do. That is the point at which you can usually stop a TB without too much difficulty.

Just my experience though. Got to say that I don't recognise your description or experience as being bolting at all.

I've had 4 'true' bolters in decades of working with virtually nothing but green or spoilt riding and driving horses.

I've had a few that were close to being runaways though.

There is a difference between a horse spooking and scooting away for a few strides across or down to the other end of the arena, or an ex-racehorse who takes hold of the reins and goes for a bit of a run because he got excited and enjoys the run or tired of the rider making him lean on the bit and a horse who bolts.

There are two kinds of bolting:

The kind where the horse completely loses its mental capabilities to 'think' AND DOES NOT REGAIN THEM FOR SOME TIME. The horse is literally in a panic and running for it's life and sometimes this horse will run itself right into obstacles immediately in its path because it does not 'see' them in the panic. You're not going to stop this horse until he runs out of gas or comes to his senses.

The second kind is the 'clever' horse that does it because he's not happy with what's currently going on. This is a horse that's used bolting to get rid out of the situation its in and is fully aware of what's going on. This horse often likes to include bucking as they're galloping off with all their might. This kind you can stop, if you can stay astride or aboard long enough have the riding/driving skill.

Originally Posted by Gestalt maybe they are capable of 'whoaing', sort of and maybe a TB is not. IME a t/b transitions down the paces absolutely no differently to any other horse and using no different signals or commands. That IMO would not be a consideration at all when thinking about driving one. There's a mass of things that would be, but not that.

Renae

Jun. 11, 2007, 06:40 AM

There were no thoroughbreds during the time of Henry VI.

As I said in my earlier posting the Thoroughly blood bred horse was developed in England and from the following stallions with their dates: Byerley Turk (1680-1696), Darley Arabian (1700-1733) and the Godolphin Arabian (1724-1753). The name later changed to Thoroughbred.

There's been horse racing in England from before then and some of the horses used prior were in turn used to breed into those stallions but they weren't thoroughbreds. It was in fact during the reign of Charles II that racing first went to on a track and at first between just 2 horses

And so you can get your time scales. Charles II - 1630 to 1688 and Henry VI - 1421 - 1457

Ugh, sorry, have no idea why I typed Henry VI, there, was thinking of George IV, no idea where Henry VI came from :dead:

Renae

Jun. 11, 2007, 06:46 AM

I am kinda curious - if you don't mind my asking - why you seem to be against driving TBs. I can think of plenty of ASBs who are much hotter than my preferred *type* of TB, and plenty that I wouldn't dream of sitting behind. (Those of us in these parts have NOT forgotten the late Found Treasure's brief "experiments" in Roadster and Fine Harness, if we can put it that way... They made Thomas' pic above look like the Low Slow Route!!) Seems to me that as a supporter of another breed that has a "crazy psychopath" reputation, you should be playing for Team TB here! :)

I'm not against any horses as driving horses, go ahead do whatever you want. The OP asked "Are driving TB's the exception rather than the rule?", and yes, they are. There might be some nice ones driving, but the number 1 light driving breed for road or pleasure use in America I would have to put my money on the Standardbred and secondly the Saddlebred, the 2 breeds most popular with the Amish and Mennonite folk. These are the folk that use their horses every day and those are the two most popular breeds with them because they are affordable reliable road horses.

War Admiral

Jun. 11, 2007, 06:52 AM

The kind where the horse completely loses its mental capabilities to 'think' AND DOES NOT REGAIN THEM FOR SOME TIME. The horse is literally in a panic and running for it's life and sometimes this horse will run itself right into obstacles immediately in its path because it does not 'see' them in the panic. You're not going to stop this horse until he runs out of gas or comes to his senses.

That's the kind of bolting I'm talking about. I guess what I'm trying to say and did not express well is that my experience has been that the TB comes back to its senses more quickly. Mind you now, "quickly" in the context of the incident I'm remembering was like... three *minutes*... so yes we're talking about a serious bolt.

I would definitely loff to read the TB quotes some time when you've a chance to type them out, Thomas!

I guess we'll find out about TBs and weddings some time this fall, as I will be using Avery for the BM's wedding. :D Like yours, it will be on a private farm with loads of horse people about - and being me, you best believe he will have loads of despooking sessions with confetti and veils and whatnot beforehand! :D I suspect, however, that my biggest problem on the day will be how to stop him trying to eat the wedding cake once he is unhitched. :D

You'll have to come meet the Old Professor some time when you're next in the States. I think you will find him quick and responsive, but very very kind and sensible. He's not by any means the only TB driving lesson horse in America, either - my trainer had one as well when I started, though I feel certain that mare has retired by now. (And BTW I don't actually teach formally - but he has given "pony rides" under close supervision and taught people the rudiments a few times, and will do so again.)

Mind you - I'm not claiming for a minute that all TBs are like this. I got very, very lucky indeed when I bid this horse in at the feedlot for $600, and I have always freely acknowledged that.

Auventera Two

Jun. 11, 2007, 08:06 AM

War Admiral - Good luck with Avery at the wedding!! I'm sure he'll be fine! :) My 7/8 TB mare carried an East Indian groom to his wedding when she was 3 years old. She was even on the news! :D She did fantastic. Never a spook one. The pictures I have are just great. There are about 500 people dancing and playing moraccas (spelling?), everybody is dressed in brightly colored robes and gowns, there is a band, and the groom is carrying this giant ceramic egg, while riding the horse. The news crews were everywhere, photographer's flash going nuts, and people throwing streamers and rice. The horse was covered in this giant tapestry type blanket with fresh flowers braided in her mane. The poor thing was BARELY started under saddle, but she had such a calm disposition and was always solid as a rock. Of corse there was a handler leading at the horse's head. I do really enjoy TB sporthorses. We never found ours to be spooky or crazy in the least. Breeding has a lot to do with it, and so does handling/training.

As with Arabians, I strongly believe that many people just plain "handle them incorrectly" because they are unacccustomed or uneducated, to the ways of hot bloods. I handle my Arab differently than I do my foundation bred QH, because the personalities are very very different. A reactive, hot blooded horse requires a handler who understands that personality type and can work with it, not against it. No, you don't handle them with kid gloves and walk on egg shells, but you do have to recognize the fact that they are sensitive. I could groom my QH with a metal wire brush if I wanted and she wouldn't notice. If I touch the Arab (or any of my mother's TBs) with a brush stiffer than limp spaghetti, you end up with one seriously pissed off, cranky horse. When I ask for a foot for hoof picking, I touch the Arab's shoulder and she snaps her leg up like she just got bit by a snake. With the QH, you could practically winch her leg up with a construction crane and she'd just sleep.

Not all QHs are that docile and not all Arabs (or TBs) are that reactive, but when you meet an individual who "is" then you have to respect their emotions and dispositions appropriately.

War Admiral

Jun. 11, 2007, 08:12 AM

If someone says that a thoroughbred will NEVER in a month of Sundays reach the epitomy of perfection required by say a classical horse in dressage (or insert what discipline you fancy) it doesn't mean that T/B's are junk or rubbish or they've not been trained right or the person is 'prejudiced' or needs to try harder, get out more, get more experience whatever. Consider they might just understand selective breeding principles and aims and objectives alongwith having an understanding of the conformation, temperament and ability of that breed.

Haha, no, I'm afraid it would only lead me to think that the person saying it has never studied the career of Podhajsky - probably the greatest classical dressage master who ever lived - and who competed nothing BUT full TBs to Olympic level until he took over the SRS. :winkgrin:

And in our own generation (in case Renae is planning to argue that the *type* has changed), there's also this fine gentleman (http://www.usdf.org/images/HOF/KeenHildaGurney.jpg)! :)

Tamara in TN

Jun. 11, 2007, 08:38 AM

Sounds like the author knew his TBs all right. But the key word there is "needless". Avery is irked beyond belief if I stop to yap (unless of course he thinks there might be a cookie or better yet a Co-Cola in it for him :cool:), :yes:

I think the author meant more along the lines of going 40 feet and stopping to collect or gain control or micro mange the animal REALLY annoyed these sorts of horses....

when I ride my own "high couraged horses" out early in their riding lives,I don't ask them to do much stopping or harassing in the first mile or two....now I may be in two point above a "start of the ride" kinky knotty trot :lol: but I'm not dropping the aids on him and demanding he do half passes or circles because he's "not listening" as so many folks are bad to do

let them stretch out and catch some excitement and wind in their lungs..riding or driving with us should be fun for them also...they may be our slaves but they are not drones....

I'll ride 7 or more miles every ride and they already learned "whoa" from the first day as I have a 10,000 sq foot barn w/indoor attached...but I hate riding in there past a week or so under saddle....ring riding bleech....

and they do mostly manage to walk the first mile out....but again....it's not about annoying the horse into doing what you want...if you wait just a bit...he will come around to you...obediance must be happily given or it dies not far past the next deep breath:yes: as they learn the drill and the drill NEVER changes they are content and this is any breed....

anyway....these old driving horses would not have been suited for the stop and go of Taxi services or market deliveries....nor would they have been great in the welsh hills...but traveling the long darks at a trot for 14 miles or so....sure....

Tamara in TN

War Admiral

Jun. 11, 2007, 09:05 AM

Again - depends on the horse and depends on how it is trained. Hell, I can set an entire cones course with Avery carrying the cones in the cart and me scrambling out every x feet to set them. In fact, I usually do, since I don't own a truck! :D As long as Avery understands that there is a *purpose* to the halt, I get "Ah. I see. We are setting a cones course. How may I be of assistance to you?" It's only when I stop to pointlessly yap for more than about 3 minutes that I get the heavy sighs, the rolling eyes, the snorts of disgust, and the pawing. So I tend to read the author's words *exactly* the way he wrote them.

I totally agree with you though that TBs do not take kindly to the concept of micromanagement, and anybody who does not understand that needs to find a different breed.

Tamara in TN

Jun. 11, 2007, 09:23 AM

Again - depends on the horse and depends on how it is trained. Hell, I can set an entire cones course with Avery carrying the cones in the cart and me scrambling out every x feet to set them. .

yes but as you set the course you dismount from the cart (2 wheeled??) and then you remount and start again....in that time, his burden on his harness and person is relieved and then reloaded when you remount...he can relax and start again when you remount the cart....

however, it may be harder for him to balance the load,stationarily in the harness when you do not dismount....esp in a 2 wheel....in a war wagon you have four wheels to take the burden off him....and his breechen and his saddle and collar....with 2 wheels and not having the ease that comes with a foreward momentum he may find it harder to hold his cargo....

and of course I may be totally wrong in all counts !!!!!!! :D

Tamara in TN

Auventera Two

Jun. 11, 2007, 09:49 AM

I totally agree with you though that TBs do not take kindly to the concept of micromanagement, and anybody who does not understand that needs to find a different breed.

That's a neat point you made. :) My friend and I always talk about this girl she knows with western pleasure QHs. She gets on and immediately sets the head, gets them in a tiny circle and walks 10 steps, backs 10 steps, walks 10 steps, backs 10 steps. She'll do this for 30 minutes or more before she ever lets them jog or get off the little circle.

I'm afraid if you did that with most TBs or Arabs, they would start evading by bolting or going straight up. When I get on my Arab, I usually have to just get her forward in a strong trot and let her "trot it out" for a mile or two before she's ready to get down to work. Part of that is being young, but part of it is being a hot blooded horse. You do have to manage them differently.

War Admiral

Jun. 11, 2007, 09:53 AM

Tamara - You're not wrong but I would point out that an important element of driving a 2-wheeler is understanding how to use one's own body to affect the weight coming down on the horse's back...

Also, it is incumbent upon any trainer of horses to be aware of his and his horse's limitations. Nobody sensible, for example, would enter a TB that has nothing but early speed in a distance race and expect to win it.

Avery's *one* limitation as a driving horse is that I really don't think I can trust him with a 4-wheeler - he *is* too quick. A more experienced whip might want to risk it... I do not. I always joke that Avery is permitted "One TB moment per year" - which is usually all I get - but when I get it, it's almost invariably a quick pirouette. 4-wheelers can jackknife and flip in those circumstances. His 2-wheeler keeps us both safe b/c it simply pivots on the inside wheel.

Last time he did it was about 4 months ago, when the neighboring attack dog trainer moved his 25 German Shepherds from Dog Run A where they were when we left to Dog Run B (around a hidden corner) when we came back. Neither one of us saw that one coming and when they all jumped up barking we both went "GAH!!" :eek: and he spun - but did NOT bolt (never does). We both felt pretty silly after we reassembled our wits, and he walked on past without a further thought about it any more severe than "dadgum dogs!". A 4-wheeler in similar circumstances could have led to a nasty wreck.

One could (and I'm sure some here will!) argue that a horse is not a "real" driving horse unless it is trustable with a war wagon. Others would point out that you suit the work to the horse, and not vice versa, and that it's rash to put a horse to a vehicle for which that horse is not suited.

Tamara in TN

Jun. 11, 2007, 09:57 AM

One could (and I'm sure some here will!) argue that a horse is not a "real" driving horse unless it is trustable with a war wagon. Others would point out that you suit the work to the horse, and not vice versa, and that it's rash to put a horse to a vehicle for which that horse is not suited.

no argument from me....only mentioning that the two are "held" differently at rest in harness by the horse :)

Tamara in TN

kellyb

Jun. 11, 2007, 10:48 AM

...responsibility and a challenge and exciting. You're always on the edge of brilliance or disaster.

I have nothing important to add about driving, or anything else, but I really like this comment. This sums up exactly how I feel about my TB (riding) mare. :D

Thomas_1

Jun. 11, 2007, 10:50 AM

Haha, no, I'm afraid it would only lead me to think that the person saying it has never studied the career of Podhajsky - probably the greatest classical dressage master who ever lived - and who competed nothing BUT full TBs to Olympic level until he took over the SRS. :winkgrin:
Of course when Podhajsky got his bronze medal he was beaten by 2 warmblood breeds and rather than the t/b changing since then, I'd argue its the warmbloods that have been developed.

And please appreciate I keep droning on that I'm a fan and competed myself at fei level with them. But its not the norm and you can't look at an exception and think it makes a rule and you're kidding yourself if you think it does.

And Auventera your wedding experience is 'interesting' but nothing to do with the driving forum or the matter in hand. Having a horse under saddle at a wedding bears NO comparison to having a horse in harness with a carriage on the back of it when a wedding is going on.

One could (and I'm sure some here will!) argue that a horse is not a "real" driving horse unless it is trustable with a war wagon. Others would point out that you suit the work to the horse, and not vice versa, and that it's rash to put a horse to a vehicle for which that horse is not suited. No argument from me. Horses for courses ;)

Thomas_1

Jun. 11, 2007, 10:55 AM

That's a neat point you made. :) My friend and I always talk about this girl she knows with western pleasure QHs. She gets on and immediately sets the head, gets them in a tiny circle and walks 10 steps, backs 10 steps, walks 10 steps, backs 10 steps. She'll do this for 30 minutes or more before she ever lets them jog or get off the little circle.
. How does she do that with a carriage horse?

Thomas_1

Jun. 11, 2007, 11:00 AM

"We are not likely to find ourselves in agreement on the most pleasing coach-horse and we anticipate conjecture and thought with our readers and debate amongst them on this very subject.

Any gentleman coachman will know that for stamp of horses for a long days work, there is nothing that can beat a thoroughly blood bred one. The more hot blood you have in your horses, the better you will be able to complete a long and trying journey. Still such high bred horses are not what the common mass will consider and designate coach horses. For those with limited means their best hot blood horses are most often preserved for sport. For a true gentleman they would always be the choice of coach-horse.

The old-stage coachmen used to say they desired a big heavy horse for a hill team and the small compact quick-stepping fast-galloping little horse for a flat stage. Readers must remember that in those days the loads were heavy and drivers were common men and no doubt the big heavy plodding cold blood horse put his shoulder well to it and suited that ilk.

In these days when the road coach only carries dignified passengers and no luggage to speak of, we should prefer for all sorts of travel and terrains the shorter stepping and small, more refined, though thick warm blood horses. They are definitely more pleasing to drive than the slow, big lolloping team of under bred cold blood horses who are very tired and will accept hanging on the driver’s hands for miles.

Study the old pictures and stamp of horse used formerly for a flat stage and in France and other foreign places. It is not all disagreeable amusement trying to find horses of decent stamp and with some hot blood. Of course they had short tails and hence that oft alters the appearance of the stamp to a horse and renders it more difficult to determine the true stamp. The well-practiced eye of a gentleman very conversant with thoroughly blood bred horses will see its exact shape and can make out that though its appearance has been altered by the circumstances of a short tail, it may please him to have this sort of horse in his stable.

Remember though a warm blood is neither a hot blood nor a cold blood. These terms do not refer to body temperature but to the quality and temperament of the horse. They are a curious mix. Sangoine froid translates as cold blood but really it means phlegmatic and so is best for the common working man. Warmblut means a management temperament that is easy and is needed for a general coaching horse neither intended for racing and sport by the gentleman nor agricultural work by the common man.

A great difficulty with regard to coach-horses in a gentleman’s establishment, so different from public coach-horses, who run their twelve miles every day, is the want of work. The gentleman will have other sporting interests which detract his attention.

Therefore either the master or his ostler or groom must try to exercise what sense has been given each in apportioning the necessary amount of exercise to make up for the want of work. One great difficultly to contend with is that if his master is at home he dare not fitten the horses too much or give them too much exercise in the morning for fear he be ordered out in the afternoon and have a long journey before him. So reader you must remember to say whether you want the horses tomorrow and so the groom can accordingly give them their exercise.

It is these sort of establishments that benefit from coach-horses with a little less hot blood. The warm blood will look better than the round dray-horse and will thrive better than a thoroughly blood bred horse whose work is so irregular.

If the stamp of horses are chosen wisely they can look pleasant and may still be used for such as hunting on wheels or to drive to hare coursing and even perhaps to bring the victor home."

A Sporting Tour through England and a Great Part of Scotland - Colonel Thomas Thornton 1804

War Admiral

Jun. 11, 2007, 11:01 AM

Of course when Podhajsky got his bronze medal he was beaten by 2 warmblood breeds and rather than the t/b changing since then, I'd argue its the warmbloods that have been developed.

Oh I agree... The WBs were still almost pulling beer drays back then!

And please appreciate I keep droning on that I'm a fan and competed myself at fei level with them. But its not the norm and you can't look at an exception and think it makes a rule and you're kidding yourself if you think it does.

Have I ever, in ANY post in this thread, said that it did? Go back and re-read: "IF you can find the right TB and IF it is appropriately trained" is all I've ever said. But I do fancy I have enough experience in the horse biz to know that "NEVER" is a very strong word and should be used with caution.
:D

EDIT: Thanks SO much for taking the time to type that out, Thomas - truly appreciated. Fascinating reading!!!

Thomas_1

Jun. 11, 2007, 11:09 AM

War Admiral,

You're welcome. I've found a load more and will get those done when I've some more time.....

I don't know if you're aware of the works of Colonel Thomas Thornton? He was mad as a hatter! I've a lot of his books and they're terrific reading. He was the epitomy of an English Sporting Gentleman. A falconer and a master of fox hounds and he indulged his passion for sport to the day he died. It seems he ordered his horse and hounds to the front door and dropped dead on the steps!

Did you put your t/b to harness yourself? How old was he when he was done? Have you known many other t/b's in harness as pleasure driving horses?

You're right that NEVER is a strong word and as a trainer there's some things I'd NEVER do either and I'd NEVER put a t/b to harness for a novice or even intermediate driver.

Auventera Two

Jun. 11, 2007, 11:09 AM

Have I ever, in ANY post in this thread, said that it did? Go back and re-read: "IF you can find the right TB and IF it is appropriately trained" is all I've ever said. But I do fancy I have enough experience in the horse biz to know that "NEVER" is a very strong word and should be used with caution.

My comments regarding TBs were aimed at exactly what you're saying here. Each horse is an individual and should be evaluated as such. This thread started with a post about a trainer who flat refuses TBs, no matter what simply on pretense that they are TBs.

War Admiral

Jun. 11, 2007, 01:39 PM

You're welcome. I've found a load more and will get those done when I've some more time.....

How lovely of you - many thanks! I think I have read *of* Col. Thornton but have never read his books. I'll see if I can find any!

Did you put your t/b to harness yourself? How old was he when he was done? Have you known many other t/b's in harness as pleasure driving horses?

Yes, I did, with LOADS of help from many kind and generous people. He was 16 when first hitched, is now 22. The 2 Price Story mentioned further up the thread are the two that I've seen - I know there are a couple more doing CDEs... I knew of one other here in GA a few years back, but again like Avery a much older TB and I'm not sure if that one is still driving or not. I don't think they ever did CDE's with it. Two that I know of on the West Coast (one does parades, Thomas! :D) and plenty in coaching in Kentucky and Virginia. Gothedistance on this forum had one she drove for a while.

So they're rare or at least rare-ish, but not completely unheard of by any means.

Auventera Two

Jun. 11, 2007, 02:16 PM

Just found this -

Thoroughbred Exhibitor's Association:

"Thoroughbred Exhibitors Association will promote Thoroughbred and Half-Thoroughbred horses in all ways possible; in shows in both English and Western equipment, in endurance and distance riding, in dressage and pleasure driving, in pleasure and trail riding, and wherever they can be used and enjoyed. "

Spring show bill - Pleasure Driving Class #20
http://www.thoroughbredassoc.org/2007springshow/PREMIUM%20LIST%202007%20Spring.pdf

hundredacres

Jun. 11, 2007, 03:51 PM

Marvelous, informative post, Thomas! As an Arab fancier, try as I might, I can't disagree with a thing. :)

Ditto from (as a TB fancier) ;). Excellent post.

Wellspotted

Jun. 11, 2007, 03:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wellspotted
Are most "Cleveland Bays" used in driving nowadays actually CBxTBs instead of pure CBs?

Not sure what you mean or which ones specifically you've seen or are thinking about?

But there's plenty of purebred Cleveland Bays driven and there's also t/b cross and not just with C/B. I've got a mass of t/b crossed with connemara and irish draft and cleveland bay and friesian

I was thinking about the Yorkshire Coach Horse (CBxTB, I believe), and the Duke of Edinburgh's CBx team (actually CBxOldenburg, not CBxTB, so I was wrong about that), and remembering how when I was looking for purebred CB a few years ago over here, almost all the ones I saw for sale were CB/TB crosses, 1/2 or 1/4.

goodhors

Jun. 12, 2007, 12:01 AM

I was thinking about the Yorkshire Coach Horse (CBxTB, I believe), and the Duke of Edinburgh's CBx team (actually CBxOldenburg, not CBxTB, so I was wrong about that), and remembering how when I was looking for purebred CB a few years ago over here, almost all the ones I saw for sale were CB/TB crosses, 1/2 or 1/4.

Most of the US Purebred Clevelands are being bred to produce more Pure Cleveland Bays. There are some Pure CB geldings out working for a lliving, a few mares, often older. There just are not that many Pure Clevelands in the USA, and what are here, may be widely spread out in the nation. I think the biggest USA breeder only has 20 some foals a year, mostly Partbreds. Most breeders have only one or two foals a year, don't breed every year. Stallions have small books compared to many spoken of on COTH threads. AI helps make them more available, but they are not big breeders.

Partbred Clevelands are just more available to find. One stallion can cover a number of mares, get more foals on the ground. There are some interesting breed crosses, but the majority produced are TB crosses. A tried and true recipe for nice horses over many years.

We drive our Partbred Cleveland Bays. Most are 1/2 Cleveland x 1/2 TB, with a couple who are Cleveland, TB and Oldenburg. Two of ours are the official old proportions of 3/4 CB and 1/4 TB, to make them qualify as Yorkshire Coach Horses. All are registered with the Cleveland Bay Horse Society of the UK, which tracks breeding and pedigrees of the Pure and Partbred Cleveland Bay horses.

The Duke's Team of 4, Cleveland Bay x Oldenburg crosses are pretty old now. I do think there are a couple still alive. He competed them in the 1980's. His recent driving Team was Fells ponies, easier on his arthritic hands, was my understanding.

I love looking at a good Cleveland Purebred, but we need the speed of the crossbred horses. They usually have the big motor, power needed for higher levels of CDE needs. The Pures are just too deep-bodied, too slow for our demands on them. They don't cool well in heat, have a huge heart girth area. Lovely for Carriage driving, not cross-country. We still have to do very aggressive cooling, to bring down temps in Vet check of CDEs. They are just LARGE horses.

We love the brain of the Cleveland, which usually tempers the fast reaction of the TB side, very forgiving in a crisis. They do give you "the look", when you mess up! They might as well say, " Are you ready to do this again, CORRECTLY NOW?"

And even with Clevelands having driven for their over 200 year history, some don't, won't drive safely. You have to respect the animal when he warns you ahead, he is not enjoying this work. We ask so much of them in our family driving wants/needs, horse must be quite happy in his work. We have very high expectations so the standards of acceptance are way up there for us. We drive both mares and geldings, prefer mares. Just seemed to breed or run into more CB geldings that worked for us the last few years.

A TB driving horse is not something I would want to drive. Not my favorite breed to begin with. Being that sharp, prepared for reactions at all times, would take the fun out of driving him. I do seem to only hear about bad ones who wrecked. Skilled drivers I respect, had good training, solid basics, horses were not new to driving. Just lost it one day for a variety of reasons. Both singles and multiples. The folks on here are the only drivers who still like driving the TBs. I will leave driving the TB to you folks.

War Admiral

Jun. 12, 2007, 08:37 AM

Being that sharp, prepared for reactions at all times, would take the fun out of driving him.

Haha, I completely understand what you mean. But when you've pretty much spent your entire 50 years working with nothing BUT TBs, "Be ever vigilant" gets to be so much a habit that you don't even really think much about it any more!

I once had the chance to take a draft cross used for hilltopping on an extensive trail ride over challenging terrain. For the first 45 minutes or so I was like "Wow, I can see what the fuss is about - you can actually relax and enjoy the scenery!" But then the novelty wore off and I found myself... really quite bored... :lol: And I started nitpicking at his carriage and my riding position and doing two-point and crossing my stirrups over and riding without, just to give myself things to think about! :lol:

Yes, I'm weird. :winkgrin:

I honestly have to say that every bad situation HRH Avery and I have ever ended up in has been directly caused by pilot error. It has never been the fault of the horse, and he has pulled off some real miracles to save our fat from the fire.

And again - NO they are NOT all like that. I know perfectly well I'll never have a horse this good again. Which is why I treasure our every day.

Thomas_1

Jun. 12, 2007, 08:57 AM

Most of the US Purebred Clevelands are being bred to produce more Pure Cleveland Bays. . here there's incentive scheme grants available for producing pure breds and as part of the breed recovery programme

We drive our Partbred Cleveland Bays. Most are 1/2 Cleveland x 1/2 TB, with a couple who are Cleveland, TB and Oldenburg. Two of ours are the official old proportions of 3/4 CB and 1/4 TB, to make them qualify as Yorkshire Coach Horses. All are registered with the Cleveland Bay Horse Society of the UK, which tracks breeding and pedigrees of the Pure and Partbred Cleveland Bay horses. Sounds like just the right type for fantastic carriage horses to me. You'll presumably know of Tom Ryder who was responsible for the development of the Yorkshire Coach horse and then the hackney horse? I was chatting to him not so long ago. I bet you'd find his tales absolutely fascinating. Despite being a grand age, his recall of equine breeding lines is formidible.
The Duke's Team of 4, Cleveland Bay x Oldenburg crosses are pretty old now. I do think there are a couple still alive. He competed them in the 1980's. His recent driving Team was Fells ponies, easier on his arthritic hands, was my understanding.He's only competing pony teams now.
I love looking at a good Cleveland Purebred, but we need the speed of the crossbred horses. They usually have the big motor, power needed for higher levels of CDE needs. I absolutely agree with you. The Cleveland Bay purebred though IMO can't be beaten in coaching classes.

The Pures are just too deep-bodied, too slow for our demands on them. They don't cool well in heat, have a huge heart girth area. Lovely for Carriage driving, not cross-country. We still have to do very aggressive cooling, to bring down temps in Vet check of CDEs. They are just LARGE horses. :yes: I've a cross cleveland bay. Enourmous and 18 hands!!! So we suspect the cross was a limousin bull!!

We love the brain of the Cleveland, which usually tempers the fast reaction of the TB side, very forgiving in a crisis. They do give you "the look", when you mess up! They might as well say, " Are you ready to do this again, CORRECTLY NOW?" Yes I can entirely relate to that. Indeed the horses I use for novice lessons turns to look at me or my staff and says " for goodness sake, take the reins"

And even with Clevelands having driven for their over 200 year history, some don't, won't drive safely. :yes: You clearly know the breed VERY well.

You have to respect the animal when he warns you ahead, he is not enjoying this work. We ask so much of them in our family driving wants/needs, horse must be quite happy in his work. We have very high expectations so the standards of acceptance are way up there for us. We drive both mares and geldings, prefer mares. Just seemed to breed or run into more CB geldings that worked for us the last few years. The only point I would disagree with you so far. I prefer geldings.

A TB driving horse is not something I would want to drive. Not my favorite breed to begin with. Being that sharp, prepared for reactions at all times, would take the fun out of driving him. I do seem to only hear about bad ones who wrecked. Skilled drivers I respect, had good training, solid basics, horses were not new to driving. Just lost it one day for a variety of reasons. Both singles and multiples. The folks on here are the only drivers who still like driving the TBs. I will leave driving the TB to you folks. To be honest, though T/B'S are my favourite breed and I would always choose one to ride over and above anything else and I drove them most successfully, I would never actually describe it that I "liked" driving them. It worked for me, it was successful, they won, it was exciting and challenging ALWAYS but "liked" ??? No way, it seems too benign a description for the experience ......... it was rarely if ever an "enjoyable, relaxing or pleasurable" experience.

And yet riding them, I love it and that is enjoyable.

hundredacres

Jun. 12, 2007, 10:12 AM

I once had the chance to take a draft cross used for hilltopping on an extensive trail ride over challenging terrain. For the first 45 minutes or so I was like "Wow, I can see what the fuss is about - you can actually relax and enjoy the scenery!" But then the novelty wore off and I found myself... really quite bored... :lol:

I totally, , TOTALLY relate to that. I've had the opportunity in the last couple years to ride a real quiet, "nice" QH, and even a Lippizann(sp) in a lesson or two. They were nice, but just not my cup of tea. I have one QH here as a boarder and same thing - he's nice and pleasant, but just not exciting enough for me :). I love the big personality and opnion of the TB. I love being challenged to match that and come to certain terms with a personality like that. I tend to like people like that too...go figure ;).

I love, love love the TB...and I'm falling in as much love with the STB. My experience with those though are limited to a single horse that I have now though - and while she is well mannered and a very smart thinking horse, she doesn't bore me to tears. She makes me think and I LOVE that in a horse.

Wellspotted

Jun. 12, 2007, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by Goodhors:
We love the brain of the Cleveland, which usually tempers the fast reaction of the TB side, very forgiving in a crisis. They do give you "the look", when you mess up! They might as well say, " Are you ready to do this again, CORRECTLY NOW?"

That sounds EXACTLY like a schoolmaster who was at a previous barn. The day I met him I fell head over heels in love with him. I thought he looked EXACTLY like a Cleveland Bay (mind you, I'd only ever seen pure CBs in photos). He is a Warmblood, but he certainly could give that "look" you've just mentioned, Goodhors. And he had told previous owners that he did not like driving at all (so maybe somewhere he had some CB ancestry). :)

And I am currently giving this thread that CB look Goodhors mentioned, because I knew the Duke of Edinburgh had driven the CBx team quite some time ago, not currently; I wasn't posting re his current team, but about what I'd read about non-pure-CBs. Seems that point was missed entirely in the effort to point out that HRH's more current team is Fells. I myself have thought about driving a Shetland 4-in-hand, if I could find 3 others to match my family's 1.

As to TBs for anything, I love to watch them, and have had a few as ground-friends. I once got up on one, however, and he and I were both quite anxious that I should get off again ASAP. My trainer loves them for eventing. I hope never to get on another one, even though I love the ground manners of MOST of the OLDER ones I have known.

Speaking of which, may I divert this thread for a minute? These TBs I have known (most of them OTTBs) have been retraining as dressage horses and ridden in some type of very mild snaffle (single or double joint, no twist or anything). They went quite well in these bits. A friend of mine e-mailed me that he and one of his riding friends were discussing OTTBs at brunch this weekend. The riding friend said that OTTBs "never" know how to go slow, or stop quietly, and therefore they "all" have to be ridden in fairly harsh bits. That is not my experience (which is limited). What is your experience?

KellyS

Jun. 12, 2007, 12:59 PM

Speaking of which, may I divert this thread for a minute? These TBs I have known (most of them OTTBs) have been retraining as dressage horses and ridden in some type of very mild snaffle (single or double joint, no twist or anything). They went quite well in these bits. A friend of mine e-mailed me that he and one of his riding friends were discussing OTTBs at brunch this weekend. The riding friend said that OTTBs "never" know how to go slow, or stop quietly, and therefore they "all" have to be ridden in fairly harsh bits. That is not my experience (which is limited). What is your experience?

Not my experience either, and I seriously question that person's knowledge or experience if they claim TB's need to be ridden in harsh bits.

I evented at OTTB (who had competed through the * star level). We schooled all three phases in a French-link snaffle. For events, we did dressage in a loose ring French-link (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1229011968055731734vfQNde) and used a "wonder bit" (plain snaffle mouthpiece, you can see it here: http://hoofclix.smugmug.com/gallery/1682922#82580204) for cross country and show jumping.

Many friends also have OTTBs and almost all of them go in some version of a snaffle. :)

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming. ;)

Wellspotted

Jun. 12, 2007, 01:19 PM

Those are beautiful pictures, KellyS. Beautiful horse!
The bits you mentioned are the same ones a friend of mine used to use when she competed her OTTB-turned eventer. He is a very nervous, high-strung horse, also very brilliant, and he went really well in those 2 bits.
I personally would think a TB would be driven mad by a harsh bit!

Jun. 12, 2007, 02:55 PM

a TB stallion was short listed for the USET driving team, and he retired a year, or maybe two years, ago. Wish I remembered his name...

There are breed driving clases too, like the TB division: http://www.oregonstatefair.org/fair/competitions/HSCountryGypsyThorough.pdf

49'er

Jun. 12, 2007, 03:44 PM

Marcie Quist, near Southern Pines, had a TB stallion she showed in CD's for awhile.....I think.

Gestalt

Jun. 12, 2007, 10:27 PM

Kellys, what a beautiful horse! I also ride my TB in a plain loose ring snaffle. He hops in place and snorts at shadows, but I loff him. :D

hundredacres

Jun. 13, 2007, 09:16 AM

Not my experience either, and I seriously question that person's knowledge or experience if they claim TB's need to be ridden in harsh bits.

I evented at OTTB (who had competed through the * star level). We schooled all three phases in a French-link snaffle. For events, we did dressage in a loose ring French-link (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1229011968055731734vfQNde) and used a "wonder bit" (plain snaffle mouthpiece, you can see it here: http://hoofclix.smugmug.com/gallery/1682922#82580204) for cross country and show jumping.

Many friends also have OTTBs and almost all of them go in some version of a snaffle. :)

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming. ;)

Not my experience either. Or any of the members on exracers.com. The most common bit used is a French link snaffle...I can't think of anyone ever mentioning using anything but typical single or double jointed snaffles.

OTTB's are given a horrible rap by people who have no business handling them in the first place. As I said before, the TB is not for everyone but thats no reason to make up incorrect commntary about them...it happens all of the time. It drives me nuts!

Thomas_1

Jun. 13, 2007, 09:40 AM

The thread seems to have shifted to talking about riding t/b's and whilst of course they're still hot bloods, its got absolutely no relevence to what they're like as harness horses.

I've personally not found a t/b harder to stop than any other breed and neither have I found any requirement for them to be strongly bitted. Whether ridden or driven. Indeed IME a t/b is quite a sensitive - but quick - soul.

It seems to me that once again we've got Auventera giving us the benefits of her decades of experience and wisdom :winkgrin::lol: - yeh that will be right :lol:.

So she's reinvented herself presumably as part of the metamorphisis from TwoSimple to Auventera and to someone with an inordinate amount of experience training riding horses, competing in endurance, driving pairs and an expert with hot bloods. :eek::rolleyes:

Curious that she's trawling through her old postings removing and editing them where they contradicted with current claims.

But during this metamorphosis she changed her opinion on T/B's
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=1507450#post1507450

However she forgot this one from not quite a year ago and when

I'm honestly stumped. All I do is trail riding, and that means going down the road quite a bit. Often times children are playing in the front yard in a pool or something, they see the horse, jump up and coming running out to the road. The horse is fine with that, but here are cute little 6 year olds, standing on the road, barefoot, petting the horse's shoulder, while she's stomping around, antsy to get going. She hates to stand still and would rather turn in circles for 3 hours, than just stand still for a minute. I've tried the whole - keep her spinning and moving until she gets so tired she wants to stand still. But all that does is get her hopped up and ready to fly even more. She has the stamina of a freight train. Am I a bad horseowner by not teaching my mare how to straighten up and stand still for the petting? Can anybody help?
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=56058

Now no-one will EVER persuade me that they know anything about driving horses and have ever driven or trained a driving horse if they can't even get a horse to stand still whilst its under saddle and so a child can pat it.

And every driver on this forum knows the first principle of training a driving horse - standing still and for ever and ever and some more!

hundredacres

Jun. 13, 2007, 07:29 PM

Speaking of standing still......I have a question but I'll post it in it's own thread.

Gestalt

Jun. 13, 2007, 07:41 PM

I'm floating away from the original topic, but.... people talk about driving horses standing still, books are written about driving horses standing still and videos/dvd's are full of driving horses standing still. Visit any local CDE in the Pacific NW and you will not see driving horses standing still. Especially when they're prepping for or during the marathon phase.

I've seen calmer horses at racetracks! I volunteered to assist the vet at a CDE. What a circus, quite a few out of control horses. I haven't attended many ridden events so I don't know if it's a crosscountry "thing" or not.

Thomas_1

Jun. 13, 2007, 08:02 PM

If you mean they're warming the horse up prior to the marathon phase, then that's normal. And remember that a horse driving trials horse is the driving equivalent of an eventer. Its fit and should be on andrenalin and eager to compete. No different to a ridden horse trials horse prior to the cross country phase.

If you mean though that the horses are being badly behaved then I'm thinking crappy driver hyping it up either by hanging on to the reins or by getting it hot through feed rather than fit through work.

And I've been to a heck of a lot of HDT's at all levels and in all countries and got to say I well recall every circumstance of seeing such thing and because its that unusual. And the ones I've seen have all been driver error.

Renae

Jun. 13, 2007, 08:04 PM

I've groomed event horses and a competition fit four star horse is quite an animal. I expect national and international level CDE horses would be of the same level of fitness. And I guess as long as they can hold it togethr for the dressage the other two phases they're not being judged on their manners!

goodhors

Jun. 13, 2007, 11:57 PM

I think everyone gets a little hyped for Marathon. Horses react to their drivers, excitement in the air. Marathon is the MOST FUN part of doing CDEs. Ours certainly feed off our excitement, come out snorting big, think they are Ten-Foot-Tall!! We do things to prepare horses, differently on Marathon day, they know the difference. They are controllable, certainly not on the edge of losing it, but more UP than normal.

We warm up a bit before departing, but expect horses to stand for countdown. WALK off when requested, not bounce forward. May not be thru the gate when "One" is announced, being obedient is more important to us. We can certainly make up that fraction of time. Don't want OUR horses starting a Marathon like it was the Derby.

A driver has to work horse and expect, reinforce obedience, whether at home, or the starting gate. What is acceptable to one person, is not that important to another.

Canavanimals

Jun. 18, 2007, 06:26 AM

Marcie Quist, near Southern Pines, had a TB stallion she showed in CD's for awhile.....I think.

His name is Montana Light - She competed him to Advanced

KellyS

Jun. 18, 2007, 07:18 AM

His name is Montana Light - She competed him to Advanced

I just have to expand on that and say Judy Canavan does a lovely job showing him now--we've seen him at Garden State and Elk Creek this year and he is a great boy. Such a nice horse! He and Merlin have enjoyed some quality hand grazing time together. :)

*Big wave to Tim and Judy from Kelly and Aaron* :D

Auventera Two

Jun. 18, 2007, 10:25 AM

Great try Thomas :rolleyes: If you would learn to keep posts in CONTEXT you would realize that the antsy horse in question is an ex-abused BARREL RACING horse covered in whip scars from making her run. I've mentioned this in MANY postings about her. She came to be traumatized with mental and physical scars that run very very deep. All I do with her is trail ride, and at the time of that posting she was terrified that a whip was coming every time she stopped or slowed. It took 3 years to get her back to a "sensible" state. After lots of long and slow training, she is now mostly fine with everything from standing still to saddling to grooming, etc. Obviously it is not normal that a horse cannot or will not stand still for a child to pat it. But one who has been beaten to run until she has thick black scars all over both hips - yeah - it's a special set of circumstances.

And yes, I do believe it's well known that I changed my user name, as I had a "Formerly..." statement in my signature line only for about 2 months or so.

So - try again. ;)

Now back on topic - my experience with our TBs has always been very sensitive mouths. Even on the OTTB with over 40 starts. Even she was very sensitive and a KK Ultra was the only thing we ever used on her or the others. Well, ocassionally a different bit just to test it out, but they were never really "needed." In fact, the worst rear I ever experienced was on one of my mother pure TB mares. We always used the KK Ultra, and for some reason I put a normal single joint snaffle on her and she took considerable exception to it. She was very sensitive in the mouth and for horses like that, ordinary snaffles are just completely too harsh.

Thomas_1

Jun. 18, 2007, 12:39 PM

^Does your limited experience with ill-trained puke t/b's have anything to do with driving?

texang73

Jun. 19, 2007, 09:36 AM

Who on earth had the stupid idea to make a marathon hazard just the same as a hurdling fence! :no::eek: As you can see though, from the nonchalant look, I'm not a person who panics!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/Driving/disasterwithahurdle0010.jpg

Lurking from the eventing forums...

But I have to say GREAT photo! I love the look on the horse's face!

And as a multiple TB owner, I have to say that what I have heard/read about TBs as driving horses on this thread, I have to agree... it is not in their nature, physical make-up, brains (normally) to be good driving horses. Runners and jumpers, yes.

War Admiral

Jun. 19, 2007, 10:28 AM

...because of the breed's long, low, racing type conformation, they (to me) tend to look ...(for the lack of a better word)... a bit <ahem> "doggy" in harness.

LOL, I totally agree with this. I've got a really funny pic of HRH Avery in the very early stage of his driving career (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/goonrgrrl/avery/averyjanet_sm.jpg) where he looks like nothing other than a hunter who happens to have a cart attached! :D He was still figuring out the game at the time this pic was taken and, I think, was still learning his balance. It took him a while to start carrying himself better.

jengersnap

Jun. 19, 2007, 02:12 PM

What I know about driving a horse attached to a vehicle isn't worth a dime (though I do ground drive my own horses, and have standardbreds who obviously drove), I do recall most if not all the horses used for the chuck wagon racing up here are TBs. I'm sure that's not the ideal of a leasurely park-worth carriage team, but they do seem to drive them quite well. I like to grin when I see blinkers on them.

The last paragraph on this page talks about the thoroughbreds:

http://www.cpcaracing.com/contact.htm

Claudius

Jun. 19, 2007, 06:20 PM

We broke four tb yearlings b ought at Keeneland fall sale, to harness.They were by Conquistador Cielo,and two different sons of Lyphard. ANd one by a a son of Northern Dancer. We trotted them 3 miles a day and then galloped a mile. As training progressed, on "work" days we just trotted 2 miles a day and worked a mile, always having our last quarter be our fastest. We raced two of these months later after a breif course under tack at the track and both were winners right off and very impressive to their riders. Why?? that is the interesting part....They went STRAIGHT. (due to the shafts we think), exceptionally balanced for 2 yo, and they were unflappable. They had had their early training at a standardbred training facility and got used to all manner of distractions....and behaved much like the reputedly much quieter standardbreds!! Much to our dismay, once we turned them over to trainers at the track (after they had broken their maidens off the farm in fine style) when we went back to visit them a few weeks later, there they were, KICKING out, pawing, gnashing at the bit when brought out into the shedrow...in other words, they behaved like all the other thoroughbreds. WHY?? The human element we thought. while in harness, between the shafts, they proved to be as tractable as any of our standardbreds....only when subjected to daily "riding" with the unavoidable lopsided weight in the stirrups that is typical , and the "cross" that they had to run into, plus the grooms ups and downs....only then did they show signs of being the "difficult" high strung thoroughbreds!!! THEY LOVED to be DRIVEN!!!!!

War Admiral

Jun. 19, 2007, 08:41 PM

Lovely story, GTD, I'd loff to have seen it!! And again I was agreeing with you -they can be "doggy" but they sure can learn! :yes:

Jenger - no offense meant but please let's not go there on the chuck wagon races... I was intrigued when I first heard about them b/c they do use TBs.... But it's a sport I have a real hard time justifying now that I know a little more about it, I'm sorry to say. It just seems like such a shoddy repayment for the courage and heart of our brave TBs. :no:

Claudius - wonderful story as well!! You don't happen to have any pics, do you?? Also - would it be dangerous to surmise that their diet and turnout schedule changed a lot once they were at the track? I would think that, in itself, would be enough to make them "act like TBs". ;)

Parallel story of mine... As a very small child I was given an old War Admiral gelding who was my first OTTB. Apparently some racing trainers back then must have taken *much* more time and care starting youngsters than most trainers seem to now, b/c when I took it into my head to see if the old booger would learn to drive at age 17, I found to my complete astonishment that he already ground drove and long-lined quite admirably - in face HE taught ME how to do both! I was his first owner off the track and I knew the racing trainer who had him most of his career very well, and that guy didn't long-line or drive, so the Big Hoss couldn't have learned it anywhere except as a youngster. I've always been intrigued and very impressed by that.

Gestalt

Jun. 19, 2007, 09:53 PM

gothedistance, I loved your description of the TB hunter. One of the things I do not like about many carriage horses is the high head and knee action. Give me a long, low frame with a daisy cutting stride any day.

I've been told my Standardbred won't be competitive beyond training level because he lacks "presence". That suits me just fine. :D

Claudius

Jun. 20, 2007, 08:28 PM

Our Tbs in fact, were on a very high energy diet at home before they went to the track. At that time we were using Tiz Wiz 14 and requested that they be kept on that pellet when they went to the track. Also, in the last wo months of their training at home they were no longer turned out due to the problem of pulling shoes. No foot, no horse!! But the work they were getting everyday in the jog carts was much more demanding than what they got at the track. No horse at the track goes three miles a day!! When they were finished their work, going a last quarter in 23 seconds most days, they would drop their heads and walk a swingy walk all the way back to the barn...they would rest all after noon...they were very relaxed and incredibly fit. I have one picture, but it is down in Florida, where we live in the winter. If I think of it I will PM you with it when I get down there. It was an experiment, and something I would have loved to continue, but DH was very involved with standardbreds, so that's the way we went!!

Thomas_1

Jun. 20, 2007, 11:53 PM

No horse at the track goes three miles a day!! Unless of course that horse is a steeplechaser or national hunt race horse and then stamina AND speed and bravery is being tested. (See my first posting on this thread if you don't know what that is.)

Then the course length alone will be anything from 2 to 3 miles and cross country and over VERY challenging jumps and the horse will be warmed up and on the gallops prior to the race and for sure they do a lot more than 3 miles a day on a race day.

War Admiral

Jun. 21, 2007, 12:05 AM

Unless of course that horse is a steeplechaser or national hunt race horse and then stamina AND speed and bravery is being tested. (See my first posting on this thread if you don't know what that is.)

Then the course length alone will be anything from 2 to 3 miles and cross country and over VERY challenging jumps and the horse will be warmed up and on the gallops prior to the race and for sure they do a lot more than 3 miles a day on a race day.

Yes, Thomas, we all know that. But if you follow American TB racing at all, then you will know we just don't do that over here any more. :( We were never much for jump racing anyway, except in certain parts of the country like Virginia and Maryland. We pretty much only have flat races, and they are all sprints so that's what breeders breed for nowadays - little fast sprinters. Which is why I still fantasize about setting up a business importing NH TBs for retraining as sport horses over here - I think they'd do wonderfully!

When HRH Avery goes, I truly don't know where I would ever find a replacement, short of importing one from the UK or Ireland. We just don't make 'em like that any more. He's one of the last. :(

Thomas_1

Jun. 21, 2007, 12:36 AM

Which is why I still fantasize about setting up a business importing NH TBs for retraining as sport horses over here - I think they'd do wonderfully! Andrew Hoy's Moon fleet who won at Burghley and Badminton (and everywhere else!) is half brother to 6 of mine by the Irish bred National Hunt sire Strong Gale.

http://www.equine-world.co.uk/news_read.asp?id=871&title=Tattersalls%20Graduate%20Moonfleet%20Takes%2 0Badminton%20Title

http://www.burghley-horse.co.uk/News/story.asp?NID=136

When HRH Avery goes, I truly don't know where I would ever find a replacement, short of importing one from the UK or Ireland. We just don't make 'em like that any more. He's one of the last. :( If that's the type you like, I might be able to help you with that ;)

And some of my ones so you can see how absolutely "typey" they are:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/intervaltraining.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/galeforce.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/collectingring.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/strongoak.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/pointtopoint.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/eventing.jpg

Auventera Two

Jun. 21, 2007, 09:16 AM

Much to our dismay, once we turned them over to trainers at the track (after they had broken their maidens off the farm in fine style) when we went back to visit them a few weeks later, there they were, KICKING out, pawing, gnashing at the bit when brought out into the shedrow...in other words, they behaved like all the other thoroughbreds. WHY?? The human element we thought. while in harness, between the shafts, they proved to be as tractable as any of our standardbreds....only when subjected to daily "riding" with the unavoidable lopsided weight in the stirrups that is typical , and the "cross" that they had to run into, plus the grooms ups and downs....only then did they show signs of being the "difficult" high strung thoroughbreds!!! THEY LOVED to be DRIVEN!!!!!

Neat story Claudius, thanks for sharing that! :) My Arab loves ground driving and I believe she will do exceptionally well with the vehicle also. When ground driving her she steps out very happily with swinging back and tail, takes all her commands easily and is usually very precise. For a pure, halter bred Arab, she is very intelligent and well grounded. Yes, she's very alert and eager but is well behaved and tends not to get "stupid" for lack of better terminology.

She too seems to like the consistency of ground driving. She is an extremely sensitive horse who reacts immediately to any shift in weight, leg aid, seat aid, etc. and she can sometimes get confused or irritated under saddle. She's made me a better rider because it's just flat not acceptable to be unbalanced or deliver sloppy aids with that horse. In the lines she seems to feel right at home, and I think it will be a great alternative discipline for her to mix in with our distance riding.

My dentist's wife gave me a nylon harness and over the last couple of weeks I've been harnessing her up and doing a lot of ground driving, and she's even fine with the crupper. This summer I'll start hauling the horse over to her house and she's going to help me get her going in the cart. She has two driving Arabs and she prefers them to the more typical "cart breeds."

I'm working to build stronger hoof struture on this horse since she goes barefoot so the ground driving works out perfect. We can get our 20-30 minute daily asphalt walks in, and do some training at the same time!

Should be a fun summer :D