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View Full Version : Attn Judges: Can you/would you deduct points for posting on the wrong diagonal?



Grintle Sunshine
Jun. 8, 2007, 03:32 PM
Just curious if posting on the wrong diagonal is legitimate grounds for scoring down a movement or the rider position score in a dressage test. I'm talking about if somebody went around for almost the whole ride posting on the wrong diagonal. Would you mark down? Would you comment on it?

QLD
Jun. 8, 2007, 03:42 PM
No. No. Maybe if I feel it somehow effected the horses ability to do his job.

Capriole
Jun. 8, 2007, 03:56 PM
A judge is not supposed to address posting diagonals in a dressage test. Some do, however. This topic appears at least once per year and garners fierce debate each time. :winkgrin:

hopashore1
Jun. 8, 2007, 03:58 PM
I was marked down for it in both the movement and rider scores.

SillyHorse
Jun. 8, 2007, 04:00 PM
I would have been having a serious talk with the TD over that. :yes:

Auventera Two
Jun. 8, 2007, 04:47 PM
To my knowledge that's a hunter/jumper thing, english rail classes, etc. and doesn't pertain to dresssage at all.

Windriderr
Jun. 8, 2007, 05:43 PM
I scribed and the rider was on the wrong diagional the entire test, it really bothered the judge to no end, but the rider was not marked down on it specifically, but perhaps it was noted in the judges handwritten comments at the end...

slc2
Jun. 8, 2007, 08:31 PM
That is wrong, Dressage Art. YOu can't give a lower score for posting on the other diagonal. That would go to the TD, and the protesting rider would be right, and you'd be wrong.

There IS no correct diagonal in dressage. While i am usually on the outside diagonal I can choose to post on the other diagonal at any time for specific reasons both during showing and training; the judge can comment that where the rider chose to change diagonals disrupted the flow of the test, but the judge CANNOT mark a rider down for deciding to post on another diagonal, and no matter how much people here argue to the contrary, it is still that way and it always has been that way, and judges who mark down in dressage for choosing a certain diagonal are judging incotrrectly.

flshgordon
Jun. 8, 2007, 08:46 PM
For me personally, if I'll see that, I will keep that in mind and if I'll be deciding between 6 and 7 for the rider's score - I'll give him a 6 b/c of the wrong diagonal. If the rider's score will be a strong 6, I will NOT go down to a 5 just b/c the rider was posting on the wrong diagonal.


I have to say I take issue with this.....If there is NO wrong diagonal, then I don't understand how you feel justified using that as the deciding factor between a 6 and a 7.

I have to say I got a 5 from a judge earlier this year on a stretchy circle and the ONLY comment was "incorrect diagonal". Could that have been any less helpful???
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If it's not wrong, then it's NOT WRONG :no:

This should be black and white. If judges can't count off for this, they shouldn't take it upon themselves to rewrite the rules.

~Freedom~
Jun. 8, 2007, 08:47 PM
and judges who mark down in dressage for choosing a certain diagonal are judging incorrectly.


I actually have to agree you SLC ( I have been marked as "error of course" for a wrong posting diagonal ).

Also THANK YOU for starting your sentences with capitals. See I just knew you could do it, just takes a wee bit more time and patience and does show respect for other members in reading what you write.:winkgrin:

ideayoda
Jun. 8, 2007, 08:51 PM
The rules are written by the FEI, so they are international ones, not national, and that is where things are different. And at one point there was no posting except for med/ext on the diagonal which made it moot.The use of a particular diagonal can help the scope of the trot, affect different things. So there can be a reason for doing what we happen to consider the wrong one vs some other countrys. That is why is part of the reason it is not marked. What is important it that the diaagonal is changed occasionally in training to not stress one diagonal pair that another.

DA you cannot mark down for the 'wrong one', nor comment on it being wrong. You can however say that the horse is out of balance and changing it might affect better timing/application of the aids.

There is however one well know trainer that teaches (on a 20 m circle) post true to collect, and change for med/extensions (which helps with straightness).

egontoast
Jun. 9, 2007, 05:35 AM
oops nevermind. I just noticed the question was for judges!

PMJ
Jun. 9, 2007, 10:44 AM
Interesting because for a while when I was riding my young horse it helped him tremendously on the circle to stay balanced much better to be on the inside diagonal--hence according to DA I would be "wrong." I wasn't showing at recognized shows, of course, at the time, because he was no where near ready. But my "R" rated judge/instructor and I had this same discussion and we used what worked for him. There wasn't a "correct" diagonal but what influenced and helped him best.

For shows, I will pay attention to what diagonal I am on, lol.

Renae
Jun. 9, 2007, 10:54 AM
In any case make sure that you do post both diagonals consistently when riding to develop both sides of your horse's body evenly. If you only ever post one diagonal you will develop an uneven horse and the fact that technically you are not scored on your diagonals is no excuse for not paying attention to them and not learning to know your diagonals by feel and developing a feel for when posting on which diagonal best helps your horse.

ms raven
Jun. 10, 2007, 03:44 AM
I scribbed today and noticed one rider on the wrong diagonal for a 20m O. The judge didn't really notice it but the circle wasn't marked well as a result of the rider not helping the horse any.

ideayoda
Jun. 10, 2007, 08:19 AM
The circle would have to be egg shaped, or the quarters out, or crooked, or the gait impure for the circle not to be marked well. (What was the comment?)

Renae
Jun. 10, 2007, 08:37 AM
The circle would have to be egg shaped, or the quarters out, or crooked, or the gait impure for the circle not to be marked well. (What was the comment?)

Posting on the wrong diagonal on a circle could certainly make the gait impure with some horses.

Auventera Two
Jun. 10, 2007, 08:49 AM
Posting on the wrong diagonal on a circle could certainly make the gait impure with some horses.

Again, there is no "wrong" diagonal. "Wrong" diagonal applies to english rail classes - not dressage. You can say that posting on the OTHER diagonal may help the horse, but don't use the word "wrong."

Renae
Jun. 10, 2007, 08:52 AM
Again, there is no "wrong" diagonal. "Wrong" diagonal applies to english rail classes - not dressage. You can say that posting on the OTHER diagonal may help the horse, but don't use the word "wrong."

If it made the horse off it was certainly the wrong one ;)

That would be the reason for right and wrong diagonals, the majority of the time posting the outside diagonal on a curve is easier for the horse, the times when the opposite is true are rare, and to post any diagonal willy nilly because there is no right or wrong diagonal in dressage is simply laziness.

ideayoda
Jun. 10, 2007, 09:38 AM
If posting on the false diagonal make the horse 'off' then it has farrrr worse problems than the riders diagonal. Since there are some top trainers who advise posting on the false diagonal on a 20m circle to teach extension, then that presumption is wron.

The basis of reason for our use of a true diagonal is to allow the inside hind to not have to carry so much weight around curves. Military riders (going straight ahead) are merely supposed to change them to allow even development.

The point I was addressing (which remains unanswered) is what was the judges comment????? WHAT comment was given to justify the low score on the circle? The reason? Egg shape/size/lacking bend/impure gait/unsteady tempo????? As a judge, those are the directives (purity/regularity/flexability/etc), and those are the points to be addressed (as well as points of the training scale).

slc2
Jun. 10, 2007, 03:08 PM
The thing you're avoiding, Ranae, is that no one is advocating 'posting willy nilly' on any diagonal - it may seem willy nilly to you because it doesn't agree with what you were taught.

The rules were made as they are because the TRADITION of which diagonal is the 'correct one' varies from place to place, and everyone has reasons why they believe their way is the best. Thinking riders have been able to look at the issue dispassionately, and have learned that the 'right' diagonal is the one that allows the rider to school his horse most effectively in a given situation.

There are, for example, horses that need specific work on the inside hind leg and I post on the 'other' diagonal while trying to get them to be more athletic and even. When the inside hind is not getting engaged equally to the other hind leg i post on that inside to work it better. In a show I would usually be on the outside diagonal if it were a test that required posting only, or if a special situation with a horse allowed him to go better that way, or to spare a young horse's back.

For years, we kids did 'Five and Dimes' exercises simply to even US up, and trainers do the same to even up their horses as they develop and train them. It applies to the horse just as well.

If a horse feels wierd when i am on one diagonal in either direction, I know there is something wrong that I need to deal with. The horse should also not push the rider onto the other diagonal, if he does again something is wrong. It is also a very good test of the soundness of the horse, if he feels wierd, for example, when i post on the inside diagonal i know there is a problem with that horse. It may be training but it can also be a lameness and i would either assume the training is deficient or the horse is unsound.

When a clever salesman is trying to sell a lame horse he can post on the outside diagonal and hide that lameness if he can also 'support' the horse with the reins cleverly. I have seen enough people try out horses and see them 'sound' when tried out and lame an hour later at the new stable. I would especially watch which diagonals a seller was choosing if he was showing me a horse, if it was a clever old timer i would be watching VERY closely how and where he chooses to post the trot and what he does with it when he changes direction. If he avoids like the plague the inside diagonal i know there is a problem, and may be not just someone who is adamant that it's the right one.... a clever salesman knows how to conceal a lameness this way....some lamenesses also are hidden by using the wrong diagonal...one has to just watch and feel when one rides the horse.

Five and dimes involve sitting an odd and posting an even number of times to wind up on different diagonals -especially useful on a circle. These are very effective exercises.

Additionally, if i were riding a lower level test nd posting i would post on the same diagonal nearly all the way across the diagonal til I nearly reached the opposite wall, to not disrupt the flow esp with a younger horse very important ringmanship during a test....just as in training I owuld almost never change in the middle of a diagonal, even though we WERE taught to do so for ages in the hunters. what one is taught in one riding division doesn't necesarily work in another.

ms raven
Jun. 10, 2007, 03:14 PM
The point I was addressing (which remains unanswered) is what was the judges comment????? WHAT comment was given to justify the low score on the circle? The reason? Egg shape/size/lacking bend/impure gait/unsteady tempo????? As a judge, those are the directives (purity/regularity/flexability/etc), and those are the points to be addressed (as well as points of the training scale).

Gee, of the 100 or so circles I wrote comments for, I believe, THIS particular one was "losing impulsion" and/or was it "unsteady rhythm" and/or "losing balance". Take your pick. The judge didn't make any comment on the posting diagonal because SHE didn't notice it.

This was lower levels and I'm sure the horse felt the difference and it obviously affected him. I don't agree that this horse has "far worse problems" than diagnoals because he was "off" when it happen.

slc2
Jun. 10, 2007, 03:21 PM
ms raven, everything you're saying is interpreted thru the lens of 'there is a right and a wrong diagonal'.

In fact, all the lengthy explanations of why to use the outside diagonal are baloney. That may make some of you hysterical, but in other countries, they have the SAME explanations - for why to use the INSIDE diagonal, LOL.

It is a hunt seat tradtion here, and nothing more. Just a tradition. And there is no 'tradition' about it in dressage, one is schooling the horse, not resting it on a long ride after hounds. What made sense in hunt seat,d oesn't make any sense at all when you're not doing the same thing.

Now...does that mean yu shoudln't pay attention to which diagonal you're on, or that you shouldn't use them in training? No, actually, it means the exact opposite. Now that you're not straightjacketed into just following a tradition, now you have to choose which one makes sense. Most of the time, the outside diagonal is fine. And the rest of the time...that's a different story.

ms raven
Jun. 10, 2007, 03:25 PM
I don't see how anything I said has to do with correct, or incorrect diagonals. I'm commenting about comments on a test.

J-Lu
Jun. 11, 2007, 12:57 AM
If it made the horse off it was certainly the wrong one ;)

That would be the reason for right and wrong diagonals, the majority of the time posting the outside diagonal on a curve is easier for the horse, the times when the opposite is true are rare, and to post any diagonal willy nilly because there is no right or wrong diagonal in dressage is simply laziness.

Actually, on horses with a tendency to fall in on a long side or a 20m circle, posting on the "wrong diagonal" activates the inside leg as it is coming off the ground and can be better influenced to step under the horse and restore the balance. The "wrong" diagonal can also put a crooked horse into shoulder-fore muuuuch more easily for the same reasons (for example, a younger horse about to spook at a letter can be steadied subtly and easily this way). Personally, I use my posting diagonals as a tool and I use it alot to restore/maintain balance. I often post on the "right" diagonal but switch at any time the horse's inside leg needs influence.

In tests...I think I aim for the correct diagonal most of the time...just in case (although switched alot once and the judge didn't comment).

~Freedom~
Jun. 11, 2007, 07:24 AM
Gee, of the 100 or so circles I wrote comments for, I believe, THIS particular one was "losing impulsion" and/or was it "unsteady rhythm" and/or "losing balance". Take your pick. The judge didn't make any comment on the posting diagonal because SHE didn't notice it.

This was lower levels and I'm sure the horse felt the difference and it obviously affected him. I don't agree that this horse has "far worse problems" than diagnoals because he was "off" when it happen.

The comment I had on the test I was marked down on was "wrong diagonal" and a minus 2 entered. So clearly it was marked as an "error of course".

QLD
Jun. 11, 2007, 07:33 AM
I'm surprised that the best reason for posting on the off diagonal has not yet been brought up.

Think about the timing of the aids when you post. It is very difficult to use your seat an leg while you are in the air on any diagonal. You would be in the air, as the inner hind leg is coming off the ground and swinging forward. If you were to want to engage the inner hind leg further, and ask it to swing in ANY direction (forward or lateral), if you were to post on the correct diagonal while you ask for this, the inner hind would be coming onto the ground, meaning the application of your aids would be time for the wrong moment to engage.

Switching to the wrong diagonal means that you now can have more effect over the inner hind leg, while still staying light to your horses back. This would be the reason for posting on the wrong diagonal while teaching a medium on a circle, or spiraling/leg yielding exercises, or anything else where you want to push when the inner hind is coming off the ground while staying posting.

If a rider were to be able to inhibit a horses motion while posting on the wrong diagonal, then I would have to question the horse's soundness.

slc2
Jun. 11, 2007, 08:38 AM
exactly!

and posting on the outside diagonal is used to conceal any lameness that might be more apparent with the lame leg is on the inside.

slc2
Jun. 11, 2007, 02:02 PM
"and rider will not have any facts to take that to TD for her/his protest."

what a way to start your judging career, LOL!

and what GREAT publicity for the L program!!!!!!!!!!! enacting one of your little personal vendettas by being a dishonest judge and marking off for things you aren't allowed to mark off for.

you're going to force people to be penalized by something that isn't even a rule, and is very INTENTIONALLY not a rule, and have a way to get away with it by being deceitful and unclear in your judging.

sorry, but this is not a valid part of 'avoiding cook,ie cutter like sameness' in judging. y ou are so far off base it isn't funny. it's out andt out dishonesty and incorrect judging.
h
i hope you lose your license or wise up....please peublish your judging schedule so i know nwhere to not go.

AllWeatherGal
Jun. 11, 2007, 02:14 PM
i hope you lose your license or wise up....please peublish your judging schedule so i know nwhere to not go.

DA's in the "L" program and hasn't taken her exams yet, so doesn't even have her "graduate" designation. Poor gal has taken a lot of hits lately and maybe isn't a great representative for the program (a couple months ago shared the results of someone else's test for constructive discussion), but is sincere.

Maybe she hasn't read Max Gahwyler's book (the first in the series of showing levels) in which he clearly states that the rules do not specify a "correct" diagonal and encourages people to use them freely to show their horse to best effect.

But here is the reason that I am reluctant to attend schooling shows that hire unlicensed or lower-licensed judges. It's a great opportunity to get out and about, certainly. And good for the sport in that how else will new judges learn their jobs? But competitors have the right to at least HOPE for unbiased judging and comments that follow the published rules.

SillyHorse
Jun. 11, 2007, 02:37 PM
The comment I had on the test I was marked down on was "wrong diagonal" and a minus 2 entered. So clearly it was marked as an "error of course".
:eek: :no: :confused: This is a good example of how important is is to know the rules. I would have been raising hell over this. DA, I wish you luck in your pursuit of your judge's licensing, but please let go of the idea that there is an incorrect diagonal in dressage.

QLD
Jun. 11, 2007, 02:46 PM
There are many examples of "personal judging methology" and modifiers: wringing the tails, licking lips, pinning ears, salivating, handling a spook, dealing with distraction outside of the ring, breed of the horse, color of the horse, appearance of the rider and a horse, rider's reputation, cuteness factor (ponies with little kids) and so on.

You might be very adamant that none of those should be accounted in to the score and all judges have to have exactly the same outlook on all of them, BUT in real world this is a utopian disillusion. Weather judges will tell you or NOT tell you, they ALL have "personal judging methology" that they use. Most common example will be QIETLY down scoring a non common dressage breeds and denying that. Try to see past the words.

I hope that clarifies that for you.

I believe we are now stretching the definition of 'personal judging methodology'.

I also seem to remember in the recesses of my very small and sheltered mind, that it is stated over and over in the "L" program, that there is no such thing as a wrong or right diagonal, and you CANNOT mark down for posting on the wrong diagonal. I believe I have heard this in other programs as well.

~Freedom~
Jun. 11, 2007, 03:19 PM
:eek: :no: :confused: This is a good example of how important is is to know the rules. I would have been raising hell over this.


I suppose I could have but I won anyways so there really was no point. It wasn't even a diagonal but the start of the walk to trot and because I have trouble picking up the correct posting diagonal going right ( just one of those "things" with me) I posted about half way down the long side before I realized it and made the correction.

Dalfan
Jun. 11, 2007, 03:23 PM
So when somebody is posting on the "wrong" diagonal, according to my "personal judging methology", I will count that as a modifier with weight of 0.2 out of 100. I will not comment on such a small modifier, so the rider will not even be aware that it was one of my many, many deciding factors. Thus, the rider will not have anything to complain about to TD.

Can you site anywhere in your L-training documentation, any guidelines, or directives - anywhere where it states there is a correct/incorrect diagonal?

If you can't, then you are just inserting your own personal preference masked by a "personal judging methodology". I'm surprised you don't know how incorrect and unethical this is. I wonder where else you might be doing this when scoring a test. At the very least, be honest enough to write it down so the rider can file a complaint, instead of hiding behind legitimate scoring.

SillyHorse
Jun. 11, 2007, 03:39 PM
I suppose I could have but I won anyways so there really was no point. It wasn't even a diagonal but the start of the walk to trot and because I have trouble picking up the correct posting diagonal going right ( just one of those "things" with me) I posted about half way down the long side before I realized it and made the correction.
Yes, there was a point, the point being that the judge needs to be called on this and stop marking the "wrong" diagonal as an error of course.

slc2
Jun. 11, 2007, 03:45 PM
exactly.

re 'i hope u lose your license', yes, i understand it's just an L thang, but once she gets thru that program, she could conceivably get a license.

run! run for the hills!!!!! :eek::eek::lol:

i can't say i've ever heard anyone publicly declare they had concocted such a scheme, and consider it to be creative and useful judging!!!! especially defending it by giving an example of something that is so screamingly unethical!

that is really the most incredible reasoning i've ever seen anywhere.

'it's right for me to secretly mark people down for posting on the 'wrong' diagonal because other judges secretly mark down certain breeds due to THEIR prejudices, so THIS IS OK FOR ME TO DO!'

i gotta tell you, DA, it takes the cake. it REALLY takes the cake.

why don't you talk about it a whole lot more here, and we'll hope the person handing out the judging licenses reads this!

~Freedom~
Jun. 11, 2007, 04:17 PM
exactly.

re 'i hope u lose your license', yes, i understand it's just an L thang, but once she gets thru that program, she could conceivably get a license.

run! run for the hills!!!!! :eek::eek::lol:

That is rich coming from you. I suppose you have a license or at least judged so you can lay YOUR judgement out. Whatever happened to the "I get along and don't want to fight with everyone SLC" ?


i can't say i've ever heard anyone publicly declare they had concocted such a scheme, and consider it to be creative and useful judging!!!! especially defending it by giving an example of something that is so screamingly unethical!

that is really the most incredible reasoning i've ever seen anywhere.

'it's right for me to secretly mark people down for posting on the 'wrong' diagonal because other judges secretly mark down certain breeds due to THEIR prejudices, so THIS IS OK FOR ME TO DO!'

i gotta tell you, DA, it takes the cake. it REALLY takes the cake.

why don't you talk about it a whole lot more here, and we'll hope the person handing out the judging licenses reads this!


No that is not right and I agree BUT I also know that if you don't fall into line with what majority of the "respected" judges do you will not get many shows to judge so if you want to be a rebel to the norm you will have to do it quietly while appearing at least to other judges that you "fit".

Margaret Freeman
Jun. 11, 2007, 04:19 PM
I have never deducted points (even as a so-called modifier) for posting on a wrong diagonal because, as has been stated, there is no such thing in dressage as a wrong diagonal. I don't even notice if the rider is posting on the inside or outside diagonal--if something is disrupting the horse's way of going at Intro, Training and First Levels, there are usually much more significant issues involved.

However, it should be noted that there is one place where this is addressed, in the "Guidelines for Judging Dressage Seat Equitation Classes," which is published on the USEF website. Under "Use of Aids," the following is considered a minor fault:

"Incorrect diagonal or lead quickly and quietly corrected."

These classes are conducted in a group, and only the rider is judged, not the horse at all. If you're entering a dressage eq class, you need to be aware of your diagonals.

If you feel this guideline should be changed, then you should direct you comments to the USEF Dressage Committee.

flshgordon
Jun. 11, 2007, 04:31 PM
DA, I have to say I'm just about speechless at your last post. To admit you're not supposed to do it but then say you do it anyway (even if it's for .02 or whatever) is just unbelievable to me. I'm not going as far as SLC, but I have to say you are out of line with your reasoning and just flat breaking the rules. I hope you reconsider some of your "methodologies" if you do become a licensed judge. :(

cinder88
Jun. 11, 2007, 04:41 PM
No, that's not wrong and rider will not have any facts to take that to TD for her/his protest.

So when somebody is posting on the "wrong" diagonal, according to my "personal judging methology", I will count that as a modifier with weight of 0.2 out of 100. I will not comment on such a small modifier, so the rider will not even be aware that it was one of my many, many deciding factors. Thus, the rider will not have anything to complain about to TD.

You might be very adamant that none of those should be accounted in to the score and all judges have to have exactly the same outlook on all of them, BUT in real world this is a utopian disillusion. Weather judges will tell you or NOT tell you, they ALL have "personal judging methology" that they use. Most common example will be QIETLY down scoring a non common dressage breeds and denying that. Try to see past the words.

I hope that clarifies that for you.

This really clarifies it for me.

It clarifies that it is A-OK for judges to use their own "methodology" for judging tests, based on their own subjective belief of how it *should* be, as long as you don't write it down and give the rider the "proof" to take to the TD?

Do I have that right?

Recently, I had a discussion with an official at a show about the (very subtle) purple lining on a horse's noseband. I was told she'd "let" me get away with it this time, but I should get rid of it. I noted that there is NO RULE about it and she basically told me SHE was the official and I had better learn not to argue with my betters!

I went to the ruling body and asked the question and was told, No...there is NO RULE about coloured lining on nosebands. I wrote the official and told HER what the ruling body said and was told that she was acting in the "spirit" of the rule.

WTF-ever!

"Spirit of the rule", "personal modifiers"...call it what you will. It is personal bias and should have VERY little to do with judging dressage..or as little as is possible.

Cinder

ideayoda
Jun. 11, 2007, 05:38 PM
I suggest that you all read the rules so that you are not victimized by a judge who does not know the rules. Yes, there are times when a TD must 'interpret' the rules, but in general judges would do well to remember 'we are there for the competitors' NOT the other way round.

If you all are showing equitation (judges only by usDf/usEf national guidelines) there may be differences from the FEI rules (which are the guidelines for w/t/c/descriptions of movements/etc).

It is NOT ok for a judge to be inventitive with the rules when it goes against the spirit of the rules. IF a judge wants to write something 'below the line" (after the test) fine, but they cannot make their own rules.

Perhaps that is why some judges only put numbers, not comments. I reallllly suggest that you contact show committees to get judges who DO make comments. They are much more important than an artitrary number (satisfactory vs fairlly good vs etc etc).

As far as the comment from a show officiial (judge/td/etc) I would ask them WHERE IN THE RULES, they took note of what they were proposing. It has nothing to do with 'betters', but with what is written down.

I went to the ruling body and asked the question and was told, No...there is NO RULE about coloured lining on nosebands. I wrote the official and told HER what the ruling body said and was told that she was acting in the "spirit" of the rule.

"Spirit of the rules" is meant to come down on the side of the rider/horse. Personal modiifers/bias might be with value systems of training....ie french influence might like lightness, germans more exactness, etc....but they all come behind the general impressions (purity of rythm/impulsion/submission/rider aids) and the training scale. The "personal modifiers" are not license to do anything you want, ie insult a breed vs watching training per se.

Monday's Mom
Jun. 11, 2007, 07:57 PM
Start giving 8, 9 and 10 to riders who are posting on the wrong diagonal.

*** Bangs head on wall *** DA, if YOU will read for comprehension, you will see that the argument is that nowhere in the rules does it state there is a right and wrong diagonal. YOU are still considering the inside diagonal the "wrong" diagonal. WHERE is that in the rules???

slc2
Jun. 11, 2007, 09:02 PM
The way you twist around reality is unbelievable. Your justifications are unbelievable. And your failure to even listen to anyone and reconsider - totally unethical. I have never been so ashamed of what anyone posts here before. Hopefully, your intentions to judge unfairly, unethically and illegally, will never become reality.

Sister Margarita
Jun. 11, 2007, 09:26 PM
In the L Program I graduated from, USEF Forums I have attended and all the following L Programs that I continue to audit for continuing education, the following has been brought up again and again.

1. You cannot penalize a competitor if you have no rule to cite.
2. There is no rule about diagonals in dressage.
3. You cannot judge to a non-existing rule.

This specific issue was often mentioned, and no penalization should take place was the general concensus, unless the USEF Rule Committee or USDF L Program has changed, which I am not aware of.

It was mentioned that since our sport is one of tradition and that most judge's eyes are "set" for the outside diagonal, it might seem awkward to watch, but without a rule, one cannot deduct points, since no infraction or error based on rules has happened.

I would be questioning with a TD if an obvious deduction of points was shown on my test sheet, and would ask for a clarification of rules on that from the TD.

SillyHorse
Jun. 11, 2007, 09:33 PM
DA, you continue to refer to this as a "grey area" while several judges (at least one an S judge) have written here that this is absolutely clear cut. There is no such thing as a wrong diagonal in dressage, outside of equitation classes. Why do you insist otherwise? Do you believe that as an L candidate you know more than an S judge? You are making yourself look foolish.

Dalfan
Jun. 11, 2007, 10:51 PM
It's clearly printed in black ink on white paper in my USDF "L" manual that I'm looking at RIGHT NOW!!!!

Can you please site the reference, from the manual you should be following while judging, regarding the wrong/right diagonals?


Yes and I can down score b/c of the lack of balance and comment on the lack of balance.

And what if the horse was in balance, but you noticed she was not posting on the diagonal you prefer?

ideayoda
Jun. 11, 2007, 10:55 PM
DA I believe the OP said the judge took off -2 (errror).....that is NOT right. That IS a black and white issue.

The balance of the horse may or may not be out of balance from the incorrect diagonal. Likely it will be straighter. There is an upside and a down side. But the use of a diagonal is really mostly for the issue of fatiging the horse. Can the rider inspire on diagonal pair vs the other by choosing a given diagonal? For sure, that was stated early on. IF the judge thinks this causes some issue, then mark the issue, NOT the diagonal per se. IS it the MOST important thing? NO. Purity of gait is.

(And Margaret is the S).

~Freedom~
Jun. 11, 2007, 11:12 PM
The way you twist around reality is unbelievable. Your justifications are unbelievable. And your failure to even listen to anyone and reconsider - totally unethical. I have never been so ashamed of what anyone posts here before. Hopefully, your intentions to judge unfairly, unethically and illegally, will never become reality.


Hmmmmm lets see. You said you wanted to know where DA will be judging so you will not go there. Is this the wonder pony that you will be taking ? Maybe you have a wonder horse you have not revealed to us yet. Or is it as I suspect a blown up horse full of hot air and you are blowing champagne bubbles to show us how indignant YOU are about a test being scored that you won't even be subjected to.

I was going to let that bit of righteous indignation pass but really the above quoted post is like the kettle calling the pot.

Everyone is entittled to their opinion including you:lol: however it seems SLC is not the igetalongwitheveryonepersonsheputson.... or is this an evil twin?:eek:

I was marked down and didn't make a big deal out of it. I HAVE judged ( and answered this thread BECAUSE I have judged...have you?). There are and always will be the influence of that judges personal experiences for or against the breed, rider and the influence of other judges. I have seen senior judges "enforce" an opinion on a junior judge when in my opinion the junior judged fair. I have seen certain breeds looked down on, and I have seen certain riders get priviliges others have not.

These personal preferences of judges are surpressed in most cases to a degree but they do slip in unconsciously in most cases and blatently in others. I have always taken the good with the bad and know that at times I have been judged unfairly both to my betterment and loss.

To me it is just life. Just get over it and move on.

Dalfan
Jun. 11, 2007, 11:29 PM
According to "L" that is called a personal methology and judges use it when they interpret the gray areas of the rule book.

Well then, in your own defense can you site where in the rulebook diagonals are considered a gray area?

ideayoda
Jun. 11, 2007, 11:53 PM
And anything that is a grey area should try to fall for the competitor NOT against them. Judges should stand for the horse, and not against the rider. As a judge for 30 years I believe our support should be with the rider, not against them.

The usEf does NOT make the majority of the rules we use (except for national level a few), the FEI does. And the world doesnt agree necessarily with which diagonal is 'right'.

Dalfan
Jun. 12, 2007, 12:18 AM
There are no rules about diagonals.

Exactly! Therefore, whether one posts on the inside or outside, it should not be marked/noted, UNLESS, as you stated, it unbalances the horse.


Just like multicolor noseband - it's a grey area in the rule book /QUOTE].

A multicolored noseband in no way effects the horse or rider. It's not specifically in the rulebook because it doesn't matter, at all. That does not give you license to declare it a "gray area".

[QUOTE]Anything that is not addressed in the Rule book in clear black and white manner is considered a grey area

This really is quite disturbing to me. You should only be judging based on the BLACK AND WHITE in the book. If something is not in there, it shouldn't be marked/noted. Maybe you will also not like the breeches/boots a competitor is wearing. Should you judge that also?

I really think you need to get clarification for your own sake, before you actually start judging.

ideayoda
Jun. 12, 2007, 12:23 AM
Thats a rule of numerical proposals for national level tests, not directives per se.

The idea of posting (an entire test) really only came up with the advent of training level tests, otherwise the only posting was only on the diagonal(s), so it is moot.

In the hunter world it is clear, but if riders from other countries are here (in dressage) it is NOT so clear. Is the idea of test riding 'training' the horse?

I would simply be blind to this issue unless there was a real issue with the training per se.

And are you saying your would do -2 for the wrong diagonal?????

Imho there enough rules, so then we have to have exceptions to the rules...and then is the diagonal on the original diagonal, the finishing diagonal, change at beginning or middle or end....so many more implications.

Dalfan
Jun. 12, 2007, 12:35 AM
I'm listening. What letter do you hold?

Not from me dear. From the program/people who are teaching you. But it just seems by your attitude that you probably will not change your opinion about diagonals, you'll mark it down at your whim, and hide/insert it somewhere within your marks so the rider would not be able to file a complaint.

Maybe you should get clarification for the sake of the riders you will unfairly punish if/when you start judging. Just a thought.

ideayoda
Jun. 12, 2007, 12:37 AM
There ARE definate rules for the colors of breeches, etc.

Dalfan
Jun. 12, 2007, 12:43 AM
There ARE definate rules for the colors of breeches, etc.

Yes, I know. My point goes back to the "personal judging methodology". A judges way of interjecting personal preferences into a test, like; boots, breeches, DIAGONALS, etc.

Dalfan
Jun. 12, 2007, 12:45 AM
So let me clarify that:

If somebody is posting almost entire test on the US "wrong" diagonal:

------ According to majority of this thread riders would like to see judge to completely ignore that b/c it's not in the Rule Book?

I would say you ignore it, unless;


if it's disturbs the horse's balance

ideayoda
Jun. 12, 2007, 12:58 AM
Ok, the riders score is: 1alignment and 2effect of the aids. IF the rider sits properly and the horse goes well, the rider could be 'excellent'. Perhaps even the horse would be straighter from using the opposite diagonal. I want to see pure gaits with impulsion (accepting or) on the bit (depending upon the level). Could disturbing mean making the balance worse? Sure. But it could be makig it better. After all a HH disturbs balance as well, necessarily so. And I guess these days judges dont want to see the effect of the HH anyway.

SillyHorse
Jun. 12, 2007, 04:01 AM
I never heard from any judge that all of the rules are clear cut. According to my instructors, higher than S judges by the way as well - there ARE "grey areas in the rules. It's clearly printed in black ink on white paper in my USDF "L" manual that I'm looking at RIGHT NOW!!!!

Is it you Gallop who says that there are no grey areas in the rules and its all clear cut? I missed that, but you are misleading those people. I'm confused to hear that from currently (or even formerly) licensed judge.

But if you, silly horse, say it's otherwise and if there are other "S" judges here who say that there are no grey areas (who are they?) - I'll let it be - why bother... after all the judge who down scored the OP for posting on the wrong diagonal is a licensed judge as well, much higher than I am, knows much more than I do, and has much more experience than I do as well... You should off listened to this highly knowledgeable judge with a big experience in the first place and not question her decision.

I tried to explain what might off happen, but you jumped all over me for that even wishing me not well, so I'm deleting my explanations.
You need to read more carefully, DA. I wrote that the issue of diagonals is not a grey area, not that there are no grey areas.

I'm relieved to know that you're not planning to be a judge.

ise@ssl
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:26 AM
I don't think any Judge should deduct points for what diagonal a rider is posting on. There is no rule stating that Dressage rides in the US must follow the Hunter tradition. I've taken many clinics with Dr. Max Gahlwyler and he tells people to change the posting for certain execises. DA - he holds the highest level of Judge Card and is one of the most knowledgeable dressage minds around.

The test is really about the movement of the horse. The score at the bottom for the rider is where they get scored. Score what you see. As others have stated "posting" is mostly in the lower levels. The diagonal posting isn't relevant.

And DA - this complicated weighting system you have created for yourself begs the question of how you can manage to do all this in the time frame of the test and for each movement.

slc2
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:32 AM
Agree with previous poster.

And DA...if you are willing to do this, to LIE on your judge's card and then mark people down for your personal rules, that have NOTHING to do with the rules, what ELSE are you willing to do?

Will you, like ~Freedom~, attack everyone who doesn't agree Theresa is the new guiding light of dressage, go for everyone who has certain trainers you feel are 'bad'? or will certain blood lines be a 'grey area'?

And I can bet, a big chunk of change that you will just HAPPEN to find that EVERY time someone posts on the other diagonal, it 'disturbs the horse's balance'.

What a load of nonsense.

It appalls me, absolutely appalls me, that anyone with this sort of attitude and 'spin' on what judging is, that anyone who believes such things are their personal 'mission', would EVER get thru the 'L' program, let alone be considered for a judge's card. you sure must have hidden your lights under a bushel basket, LOL.

~Freedom~
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:48 AM
Agree with previous poster.

And DA...if you are willing to do this, to LIE on your judge's card and then mark people down for your personal rules, that have NOTHING to do with the rules, what ELSE are you willing to do?

Will you, like ~Freedom~, attack everyone who doesn't agree Theresa is the new guiding light of dressage, go for everyone who has certain trainers you feel are 'bad'? or will certain blood lines be a 'grey area'?

And I can bet, a big chunk of change that you will just HAPPEN to find that EVERY time someone posts on the other diagonal, it 'disturbs the horse's balance'.

What a load of nonsense.

It appalls me, absolutely appalls me, that anyone with this sort of attitude and 'spin' on what judging is, that anyone who believes such things are their personal 'mission', would EVER get thru the 'L' program, let alone be considered for a judge's card. you sure must have hidden your lights under a bushel basket, LOL.


Oh PLEASE ! If it appears I am attacking you then maybe just maybe you should look at the stuff you post and see just how hypocritical and redundant most of your posting are.

I base my posts on real life experiences, knowledge I earned ( I have been a judge) and human observation, not books and fantasies.

QLD
Jun. 12, 2007, 07:52 AM
So let me clarify that:

If somebody is posting almost entire test on the US "wrong" diagonal:

------ According to majority of this thread riders would like to see judge to completely ignore that b/c it's not in the Rule Book?

------- according to "S" judges here, even if it's disturbs the horse's balance I'm suppose to ignore it b/c there is no rule about it in the Rule Book and I still can give this rider a 10 score for the rider?

It's not that it's not in the rule book. There is not a member of the "L" faculty that will tell you you should mark down for ANY diagonal.

If the horse is out of balance, then yes, of course you would mention that. And of course you cannot give a 10 for a movement where the horse is not balanced. However, if the horse performs the movement beautifully, and what you see is "EXCELLENT" in front of you, yes, you could give a 10 for a horse being ridden on the off diagonal.

Posting on the off diagonal should have no bearing on the horses balance if indeed the horse is sound, it simply weights the opposing hind leg, as well as changes the timing of the riders aids. I wish I could remember where I read it, perhaps Riding Logic or Sally Swift, but if you're horse is properly schooled, once you are posting you should not be able to tell which diagonal you are on.

I think before further trying to hash this out on a bulletin board, and trying to convince highly educated people to see YOUR light, maybe you want to call someone at the USEF and clarify the rule there.

Or are you trying to change their minds too?

cinder88
Jun. 12, 2007, 08:17 AM
Just like multicolor noseband - it's a grey area in the rule book.

Anything that is not addressed in the Rule book in clear black and white manner is considered a grey area.

No where in the rulebook does it address the breed or type of horse being ridden. This is now a "grey area" open to interpretation in my scores?

This "grey area" idea is crap.

It's a rule, or it isn't. Pick one.

When I inquired at the top levels about the noseband colour I was told it was NOT a rule and therefore was not a problem. Seems like you and that Steward would get along well..."I don't like it so I'll mark it down...." isn't a great "personal methodolgy" in my opinion.

Lisa

SillyHorse
Jun. 12, 2007, 08:32 AM
And how about the color of a horse? Not in the rule book, so is this also a "grey area?" If you don't like plain dark bays can you then decide to mark that color down?

~Freedom~
Jun. 12, 2007, 08:42 AM
And how about the color of a horse? Not in the rule book, so is this also a "grey area?" If you don't like plain dark bays can you then decide to mark that color down?

Heck no never a plain dark bay.

Now about a colored palomino double dilute TB with several color breeders all arguing at the sides on who bred it and what the stats of its sire is compared to the stats of the competition, thus creating such a commotion that the double dilute palomino TB goes bonkers and jumps out,creating even more havoc as each color breeder blames the other on the resulting elimination of the said subject of the argument in the first place. :lol:

Now if anyone can read that in one breath, good luck.:winkgrin:

SillyHorse
Jun. 12, 2007, 09:30 AM
Well I don't care for plain dark bays, so when I become a judge, watch out! :lol:

Dalfan
Jun. 12, 2007, 11:07 AM
The is no rule, silly that's the point. There are no rules about diagonals, but I personally think that USEF should create one.

This is the point you seem to be missing. Just because you think they should create another rule, doesn't give you the right to insert one of your own. Kinda reminds me of the guidelines/rules/directives the judges ignore currently.


It seems to me that it's YOU who is trying to convince me that I need to ignore wrong diagonals that disturb the balance of the horse. Well, yet again - if the balance will be disturbed and the flow of the movement and rhythm will be interrupted - I'll make a note of it. How many times do you want me to tell that to you? Or you will continue to make personal attacks on me unless I agree with your point of view?

Now you've qualified the "wrong" diagonal - only if it unbalances the horse. You didn't say that before and I have a feeling you would still mark it down, based on a whim. You'd just hide it really well so no one would know!

SillyHorse
Jun. 12, 2007, 11:09 AM
Not angry, just baffled that you continue to talk about wrong diagonals. There is no such thing in dressage, except in equitation classes. You have read this time after time here -- not just from random, anonymous posters, but from respected judges -- yet you STILL talk about wrong diagonals. It's really mind boggling. :no:

msbetty
Jun. 12, 2007, 11:18 AM
There is an old saying: "Nothing discredits an expert any quicker than when he/she opens their mouth." You know, those kind of people that cannot admit they are wrong so they finally agree with your position in a discussion still holding fast to the appearance that they are right and you are wrong.

slc2
Jun. 12, 2007, 11:32 AM
i'm not at all angry. i am amazed at your stubbornness, but little else.

i also have confidence in the system, that even if you DID want to be a judge, you wouldn't keep your card for long, if that's how cavalierly you view your responsibilities, or how little you understand them.

you cannot discredit what people say by accusing them of being 'angry' or 'throwing stones' at you when all we are doing is telling you exactly how little we agree with you and how it makes us feel. our statements can't be brushed away by labeling them as 'angry'. i don't think anyone here is 'angry' except you that we aren't agreeing with you.

no, that irony is something only you see, because it doesn't exist. your thinking is so twisted on this, and so incredibly adamant despite so many people insisting you simply can't create 'grey areas' for yourself and decide how you're going to judge them based on your prejudices.

your job as a judge IS to be dispassionate and fair and judge by the rules and according to what you get from the judging education programs which are ongoing. you haven't even gone to one, and they are where you receive a lot more information on how to judge, and where the rules are clarified, explained and discussed with more senior judges, who i doubt you would have any respect for, they'd be labeled 'angry' or 'ironic' by you too, i suppose.

THAT is what you are to do as a judge. it is not a small matter for people to learn to be a judge. we have people like linda zang and the other higher level judges who have made it their life's work to be fair and dispassionate.

and that, i must say, is what i have seen dressage judges do, by and large, for many many years. and i am incredibly in awe of them and respect them for their knowledge and their fairness.

to rise to that level is not a small aspiration. and it's not somewhere you get by finding clever ways of disguising your biases, but by getting RID of your biases.

QLD
Jun. 12, 2007, 11:35 AM
What about if I like it and mark it up? Would you like that "personal methodology"?

Do you believe that somebody can stay totally detached from their personal likes and dislikes that are engraved in them for the last 20-50 years of their life with horses?


As the "O" judge, Axel Steiner, once said to an audience, "the best judges are sometimes just a little bit blind....'

Another very high level judge once made a comment about "Being able to judge from the shoulders (of the rider) down..."

Yes. A good judge NEEDS to detach themself from a personal like and dislikes. Anyone who cannot do this should seriously reconsider their career as a judge.

But, DA, would you please answer the burning question, if the horse is sound, then what exactly is the biomechanics of posting on the off diagonal, that would make the horse out of balance? I suspect that even on the true diagonal the balance issue would be the same, and that you're possibly misinterpreting the cause of the horses loss of balance, which is more likely elsewhere.

P.R.E.
Jun. 12, 2007, 11:36 AM
This conversation just brings to light, how so called experts and even judges, don't have real knowledge of what good riding is.

Wrong diagonal?? a local equitation concept that makes no sense.

Regarding the grey areas in dressage rules, THERE ARE NO GREY AREAS. Dressage rules are inside de private law category or concept in opposition to public law category or concept.

In public law, for example, the laws and rules that say what the congress is supposed to do, the congress can do only what the law or rules say.

In private law, (applies for non-government issues), you can do everything that is not specifically forbiden. This is the environment where sports rules work. If dressage rules, don't talk about the color of the horse, or the "posting diagonal", it means you can do whatever you want. More important is not up to the judge to make those decisions, the judge needs the discipline to follow the rules, without letting their own opinion regarding the rules get in the way.

What is more scary than a judge, that disagrees with the laws and rules and wants to be the rule maker. Even more scary a judge that is trying to include a concept that is foreign to certain discipline, in this case foreing to Dressage.

Dalfan
Jun. 12, 2007, 11:38 AM
Do you believe that somebody can stay totally detached from their personal likes and dislikes that are engraved in them for the last 20-50 years of their life with horses?

IMHO, it is REQUIRED that you do. You have admitted that there is no rule for diagonals. Diagonals shouldn't come into play in your scoring. If horse is unbalanced, of course you would note that, but it might have nothing to do with a wrong diagonal. Actually, I have been told by a Pan Am rider (SA country), in a clinic I rode in that the inside diagonal was perfectly acceptable and in fact was more desirable.

slc2
Jun. 12, 2007, 11:39 AM
that's correct.

in fact, riding on the outside diagonal being the 'correct' or 'only one' is something that is quite american and from british hunt seat tradition, and little else. in france and spain and portugal and russia you may very often find psople posting on the inside diagonal during the same sort of riding (hunt seat, radonne, etc), and giving the SAME reasons why as the brits give for the outside diagonal.

dressage is international. the rules are international. they are not meant to institutionalize the arbitrary practices from specific countries that restrict the schooling of the dressage horse and developed for other types of riding.

the outside diagonal is PERFECT for easing horses on long rides, with the exception that if i was going in a straight line for a while, i would switch diagonals back and forth, just as i was taught by an old fox hunter i respected. it is NOT perfect for rigidly following in schooling a dressage horse, and since showing must respect the training process and nurture it the rule is as it is.

it is for RESTING the horse. if i want the horse even, i don't post on the outside diagonal all the time. and my first job with a dressage horse is purity and being even is crucial. i won't give up a great tool for creating that evenness, and a judge should never judge in a way that forces a rider to give up a great tool like that.

the rules are based on knowledge of dressage, in which the diagonals are frequently used in training. if you don't know about that, and only have experience with hunt seat, you might adamantly believe that there is a 'wrong' and a 'right' diagonal. after spending years and years with a decent trainer, you might realize that you are wrong.

most of us came from hunt seat, where we got screamed at for being on the 'wrong diagonal' in our little up down lessons, and we learned something new when we came to dressage. it's not that hard to change your mind and learn something new.

being a judge does not provide people with a place where their biases and ignorance are to be nurtured into a clever art form.

egontoast
Jun. 12, 2007, 11:50 AM
Tempest in a teapot?

As I suggested in my earlier post which was deleted when i REALIZED THIS QUESTION WAS FOR JUDGES (APPARENTLY NOT), since judges have their subjective druthers, right or wrong, which may not appear in the notes but still get dinged in the collectives, if you are really really worried about your training level scores, just observe the traditional bloody diagonals.

Yes, you should not have to and you should not have to shine your boots or increase the angle on your SI either but it's called ringcraft. You present the best picture you can.

Are you worried about your TL scores ,slc and sidekick, or is this just rhetorical outrage?

ise@ssl
Jun. 12, 2007, 11:58 AM
OK - I'll bite. DA you feel there SHOULD be a rule regarding which diagonal the rider uses - at these lowest levels of riding. Why? Do you feel this makes for better training or dressage? We breed/train - we often change diagonals on young horses that have issues of balance or strength to "help" them out a bit. I cannot for the life of me figure out how the diagonal a rider uses is going to have such a significant affect on the scoring of the ride. And what happens if they change the diagonal midway through a movement? Isn't the system complicated enough?

For horses and riders at lower levels this isn't going to make or break a test. And qualified people who have trained horses from nothing to GP TELL riders to use different diagonals in training to help with some issues.

If a rider received a mark down for this - march straight to the TD and demand a corrected score - we certainly would.

slc2
Jun. 12, 2007, 12:02 PM
well, DA, i did that for quite a few years, actually, and i was never, not once, marked off. not by one single judge.

egontoast
Jun. 12, 2007, 12:05 PM
DA is wrong but , again, you don't always know if the judges dinged you or not because they can just mark you down in the collectives.

Wrong, yes, but it happens and you won't know.

I guess it's a big deal for some people. It seems like a minor thing to get all crazy about. After TL it's just not an issue.

Dalfan
Jun. 12, 2007, 12:10 PM
Are you worried about your TL scores ,slc and sidekick, or is this just rhetorical outrage?

which sidekick are you referring to, since there are many on this thread who disagree with DA?

If you're referring to me, I'm still doing the W/T, so TL won't apply to me for a while, at least 2 years.:yes::lol:


It seems like a minor thing to get all crazy about.

Not a minor thing for those riders who will be marked down unfairly.

SillyHorse
Jun. 12, 2007, 12:25 PM
Talking to DA is like talking to a brick wall. :sigh: I'm done. I will just repeat that I am very glad that Dressage Art does not intend to pursue her judging license. Now I'm done.

AllWeatherGal
Jun. 12, 2007, 12:28 PM
Folks ... if you want to get in a tizzy, by all means, but please keep in mind that DA is *NOT* a licensed judge and has not even passed her "L" exam. She doesn't represent the state of judging in northern California, she only represents her own opinions. And I've noticed sometimes is very literal about her transfer of information.

Having said THAT, in a recent lesson the instructor (an USEF "S" and FEI "I") corrected my posting across a diagonal. She wanted the change at X. But then, when I did a lengthen, she didn't want the change until I reached the letter (and in a test, presumably sat, so it wouldn't be an issue) because the change upset the movement.

I haven't had anyone comment on rising diagonal in a lesson in agesnages, pretty much letting me determine when to change rising depending on what I was feeling underneath me.

I did wonder at the time whether that would influence her score of a movement, but didn't ask. Too busy riding.

Grintle Sunshine
Jun. 12, 2007, 01:21 PM
I really opened up a can of worms with this one! To clarify, I have never been scored down for this, I only asked because I was curious if someone could be. I guess I was wondering what the judges are taught, and it seems that in theory, you should be able to post on whichever diagonal you want, but in practice, you're better off posting on the outside diagonal (notice I say "outside", not "wrong" :lol:). I appreciate everyone's opinion on this - I wasn't aware that this was such an American thing. I am definately going to try posting on the inside diagonal with my young horse to try to activate the inside hind more.

FWIW, I have been corrected on this by advanced dressage trainers/judges, so there definately seems to be a perception that there is a right and wrong diagonal.

slc2
Jun. 12, 2007, 01:27 PM
:cry::(:eek::no::sadsmile:

Not really. There IS a concept of 'appropriate for what you're doing right now'.

When I want to time my aids that way, work the inside hind, even up the horse, etc, inside. When I am just lolloping around, warming up, outside. Riding some stiff old poor old elderly horse that is NEVER going to be even, outside diagonal.

But again...it's the outside of the BEND, and that may be the INSIDE diagonal again as far as the rail goes. depends on the bend. And I change diagonals when I'm posting to the half pass, but I change before the half pass starts.

Turn, change diagonal, half pass, keep the same diagonal.

Wait if this is just a tempest in a teapot....are you suggesting that any thing here ISN'T a tempest in a teapot?

cinder88
Jun. 12, 2007, 01:51 PM
How about those wonderful nosebands that you make - it seems that you were/are arguing about them with quite a brath with both a judge and TD, making a scene and still sore about it ;)


I don't make nosebands. Never have, never will.

This was a bridle on a kids horse that I accompanied to the Steward for a tack check.

And, in my book, it's OK to "make a scene" (which I didn't do, but anyway...), IF YOU'RE RIGHT. (Which I was...)

You, on the other hand, don't have a leg to stand on with this "scene" you've created.

Cinder

Erin
Jun. 12, 2007, 03:33 PM
Cinder, DA, take your personal squabbles off the board. They don't belong here.

Not that there really seems to be any point to the non-personal squabbles on this thread either, but carry on, if you must. :rolleyes:

SillyHorse
Jun. 12, 2007, 03:43 PM
:lol:

indyblue
Jun. 12, 2007, 05:08 PM
A quick question to squash my confusion.In NZ the correct diagonal is that you rise out of the saddle as the inside front leg is back .Am I understanding correctly that you guys are the opposite? The use of the inside diagonal is hammered into us starting at pony club.

Janet
Jun. 12, 2007, 05:10 PM
A quick question to squash my confusion.In NZ the correct diagonal is that you rise out of the saddle as the inside front leg is back .Am I understanding correctly that you guys are the opposite? The use of the inside diagonal is hammered into us starting at pony club. I think it is the same, just different words. We rise as the outside shoulder goes forward.

twnkltoz
Jun. 12, 2007, 05:18 PM
The S judge I scribed for recently told me to never change diagonals on a straight line in a test because it can disrupt the rhythm. I've been trying to break that habit and it's SO HARD! I'm so used to changing at X when I change the bend. I was also told not to change diagonal in the loop (T4), so I struggle with that, too. Such a creature of habit, am I.

twnkltoz
Jun. 12, 2007, 05:19 PM
A quick question to squash my confusion.In NZ the correct diagonal is that you rise out of the saddle as the inside front leg is back .Am I understanding correctly that you guys are the opposite? The use of the inside diagonal is hammered into us starting at pony club.
Same thing. If the inside front is back, the outside front is forward. Your way of describing it seems so much harder to get, though! It's much easier for me to time things by the leg that's going forward, that when I try it the other way I have a hard time getting my brain around it. :)

Dalfan
Jun. 12, 2007, 05:37 PM
The use of the inside diagonal is hammered into us starting at pony club.

Yes, the old saw - "Rise and fall with the leg on the wall" here in the US. But has been stated, there are reasons for rising with the inside diagonal. You are still rising with the outside fore.

egontoast
Jun. 12, 2007, 05:51 PM
DA, there is no burning controversy. It appears that you are pretty much alone in your thinking. The only reason people are bothering to argue with you is because you are in the L program and ought to know better.

ise@ssl
Jun. 12, 2007, 06:13 PM
Whew! That was a very long diatribe - but it doesn't answer by question about how this helps the training or the sport?

1. OK - riders post when they are riding. Actually a balanced rider can post on either diagonal and not affect the quality of the ride. It does affect how aides can affect the hind legs - but I won't go into that concept.
2. Using what a "majority of instructors use" as a basis for Dressage is a very dangerous place to go.
3. I see absolutely NO validity in the "harmony" concept of someone posting on either diagonal. We see more than our share of people posting on this purported "correct" diagonal with NO harmoney whatsoever.
4. Many rules don't transfer over all classes. Some rules apply to certain levels of riding. Using your arguement - all riders should either be in shadbellies with top hats or jackets with hunt caps.
5. I don't see it as a burning question - just an obvious ignorance on the part of some card holding judges and TD's. It's not in the rules - so it can't be marked down.

And the rules shouldn't be written to make certain judges happy - otherwise we would have a Dressage sport that is totally out of sync with the International competitive riding community.

AllWeatherGal
Jun. 12, 2007, 06:31 PM
Ok ... you know what really breaks my heart?

It's not posting on the "wrong" diagonal, its posting AT ALL in a shadbelly and top hat during a dressage test.

Made me want to cry, it did. Even tho it was allowed.

Janet
Jun. 12, 2007, 06:36 PM
Clear rule will give a chance to be able to REWARD riders who can remember their diagonals under the show pressure and riders who change their diagonals with out disturbing the horse’s balance and flow of the movement. It is NOT a question of "remembering your diagonals".

The point is that THERE IS NO SUCH THING as the "CORRECT" diagonal. If you learned to ride in Russia, or several other countries with reputable dressage, you were taught that the "other" diagonal was the correct one.

The "correct" diagonal is the one that produces the most "correct" performance by the horse.

If posting the entire test on the left diagonal gives the best performance by the horse, then THAT is the CORRECT diagonal.

If posting on the "inside" diagonal gives the best performance, then THAT is the CORRECT diagonal.

If posting some movements on the inside, and other movements on the outside, diagonal gives the best performance, then THAT is the CORRECT diagonal.

Janet
Jun. 12, 2007, 06:39 PM
2. It’s a clear cut US tradition that is very actively taught by strong majority of instructors in US – the show ring should resound what is happening at large.
It is only a clear US tradition for non-dressage English disciplines. Taught by the majority of the non-dressage instructors.

I am not sure whether "The dressage show ring should repond to what is happening at large." but if it should, then it should reflect what is happening at the International level, not just US - influenced by other disciplines.

Janet
Jun. 12, 2007, 06:41 PM
Rider’s who doesn’t post on the correct diagonal doesn’t look as harmonies as riders who display their knowledge of nation wide accepted correct diagonals. Posting on the wrong diagonal most of the time doesn’t add to the ease of movements. We have a place in collective marks to judge “correctness and effect of the aids” - posting of the different diagonals does give different aids to the horse.
Only to those whose grasp of dressage is so weak that they think there is a "correct" and "incorrect" diagonal.

Janet
Jun. 12, 2007, 06:48 PM
4. We have a Rule at the equitation classes in the same rule book that states that there ARE correct and wrong diagonals. Correct and wrong diagonals are accepted and clearly defined for equitation classes. It’s strange that this rule doesn’t’ transfer to the dressage section at Training level, but other qualities of equitation do.
Right at the beginning of the "Equitation" chapter it EXPLICITLY says that Dressage equitation classes are exempt from the Equitation chapter, and are covered by DR132. DR132 makes NO mention of a "correct" diagonal. Just because Hunt Seat Eq and Saddle Seat Eq have a "correct" diagonal does NOT mean the Dressage has a "correct" diagonal.

Janet
Jun. 12, 2007, 06:49 PM
5. it’s obviously a burning question that keeps coming back for VERY heated discussions on forums and riders/judges don’t agree with each other on that subject. Clear rule will put the end to that.
I have not seen ONE licensed official say that there is a "correct" diagonal.

Janet
Jun. 12, 2007, 06:56 PM
Well, Janet, as a matter of fact I did learn how to ride FEI dressage in Russia (yep, I was born and raised there) and was taught to post on the "other" diagonal. When I came to US almost 20 years ago, every pony club mom and their uncle were correcting me how to post on the "correct" diagonal. I've heard it over and over and over again and again - make up your mind and make a rule. Make a rule that the diagonals doesn’t' matter. But make a rule - that will make my life so much easier. Trust me; majority of US is not open to posting on different diagonals – I had to change. Pony Club moms and their uncles are NOT proper dressage instructors, still less licensed judges.

WindsongEq
Jun. 12, 2007, 10:40 PM
Definately no posting diagonals in the dressage division in the rulebook. Last year at a judges training this topic was covered. We may write it in the comments, but CANNOT take of any points in the score. I have commented on it in tests but put it in (parentheses) so hopefully the rider would understand it is not affecting their score but that I as a judge among many other things notice they were on the wrong diagonal. The only riders that post are in training level, and just some of the legnthenings and stretchy circle in 1st L. I think any help we can give them is good. Some riders, new to training level do not even know there IS a certain diagonal to post on! This would be a helpful bit of information to know!!

AllWeatherGal
Jun. 13, 2007, 12:00 AM
WE, "new to training level do not even know there IS a certain diagonal to post on! This would be a helpful bit of information to know!!"

Please refer to Janet's posts about the exact wording in the rules.

According to the published rules by the USEF, who is in charge of making such rules, there is NOT a "certain" diagonal to post on in dressage tests. The correct diagonal is the one that most benefits showing the horse.

Comment on it all you like. I'll look at the test, shake my head, because I know very well that there is NO "correct" diagonal for posting. And if all you notice is my posting when my horse lengthens, I'm definitely doing something very wrong.

But I have to say, I bet hundreds of lurkers are vowing to figure out sitting trot and get the heck OUT of training level soon.

Monday's Mom
Jun. 13, 2007, 01:21 AM
Well, Janet, as a matter of fact I did learn how to ride FEI dressage in Russia (yep, I was born and raised there) and was taught to post on the "other" diagonal. When I came to US almost 20 years ago, every pony club mom and their uncle were correcting me how to post on the "correct" diagonal. I've heard it over and over and over again and again - make up your mind and make a rule. Make a rule that the diagonals doesn’t' matter. But make a rule - that will make my life so much easier. Trust me; majority of US is not open to posting on different diagonals, at home or at the shows – I had to change. Hope you appreciate the irony of posts and your assumptions about me ;)

DA, I most certainly do not trust you. You've told us what degrees you hold and your grade point average, yet you still cannot or will not understand the extremely simple concept that there is NO "wrong" diagonal in dressage and you persist in using the "right/wrong" terminology. And it is NOT my experience, nor the experience of others who have posted, that the majority of the U.S. is not open to posting on different diagonals. But what is really amazing is your ability to be totally oblivious to your own bias. I'm going to go bang my head against the wall some more now. Don't let the thumping keep you up.

egontoast
Jun. 13, 2007, 04:54 AM
To me your desire to convert me to your free diagonal cult seems quite childish. Thanks, but your cool aid doesn't look so appetizing.



'free diagonal cult"?

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Maria
Jun. 13, 2007, 07:43 AM
I agree to disagree with the agreement.

It has been determined that the disagreement we can agree upon.

However, should any of the parties disagree with the agreement the final agreement can be appealed to the FEI upon a disagreement.

To file your disagreement on the agreement you must submit in writing your disagreement to the FEI within 30 days. Upon review by the FEI of the disagreement a Final Determination will be made thereby providing an agreement.

Disagreements of the Final Determination agreement shall be appealed to Sjef.




Now, what was the agreement/disagreement?

Janet
Jun. 13, 2007, 07:50 AM
they are just going with a current fad "No 'correct' diagonals in dressage" has been the case in this country at LEAST since my first dressage lessons in about 1967.

You have an interesting definition of "current fad".

Do you consider the use of saddle pads when showing to be a "current fad" too? It is a much more recent development.

Monday's Mom
Jun. 13, 2007, 08:18 AM
I am still entitled to have my own opinion, even if it's not perfectly aligned with current USEF rules.

Well, we wouldn't want the rules to get in the way... :eek:

Dalfan
Jun. 13, 2007, 09:18 AM
That's your problem, Monday's Mom, not mine. I didn't ask your advice and don't really care to hear it either. Please don't force your opinions on me anymore, go preach to somebody else.

Is it true what Sillyhorse said - you are not going to pursue a judging license? If so, a wise choice, IMHO. You don't seem to have the temperment for it.

AllWeatherGal
Jun. 13, 2007, 09:28 AM
Is it true what Sillyhorse said - you are not going to pursue a judging license? If so, a wise choice, IMHO. You don't seem to have the temperment for it.

Especially since my guess is that at least 3 of the "L" faculty and two USEF examiners are aware of the thread by now. It's always very very important to remember that your readers are not only the ones to whom you are posting.

slc2
Jun. 13, 2007, 11:28 AM
i am amazed that in your world, pony club knows more about dressage than riding instructors in russia, which can, and in fact did for a very long time, often get their training and their cirriculum from some of the best classical dressage appassionados that ever lived.

we have a saying around here whenever someone rides a certain way, 'god, you're riding like a damned pony clubber'....it doesn't refer to pony club as a whole at all, but to one local instructor that was teaching for a wee bit too long; since instructors are volunteers, they may be very good...or they can be very bad. not only did you get a bad one, you made her god, LOL.

you may find us boring - i find you very, very sad. i feel sorry for you, and embarrassed for you - acutely embarrassed. and i hope some day you learn more about dressage.

SillyHorse
Jun. 13, 2007, 11:51 AM
As for me - I'm posting on the traditionally correct diagonal in US in the show ring and you can't convince me to change that. Here's that roll eyes you were looking for: :rolleyes: because no one is telling you or anyone else to post on any diagonal at all! Who is trying to convince you to change anything except your closed mind? Where did anyone tell you to post on one diagonal or the other? Where? Sheesh. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I really am done trying to discuss this with someone who obviously doesn't understand anything anyone else is saying.

cinder88
Jun. 13, 2007, 01:15 PM
I feel strongly about a need of a clear rule about use or not use of diagonals. I personally experienced that there ARE a correct and wrong diagonals in US and the current Rules do not reflect that.

EXACTLY. The current rules do not reflect anything concerning which diagonal you are on. Your "personal experience" holds no value in this arena. THEREFORE, until you get them to CHANGE the rule, judges are not allowed to use it as a criteria for marking down a competitor.

Period.

You just said it yourself.

Cinder

Dalfan
Jun. 13, 2007, 01:32 PM
I paid a lot of money and spend a lot of time participating in this program and I didn’t go there to sit, smile and nod. I feel strongly about a need of a clear rule about use or not use of diagonals.

I wouldn't expect you to just sit and nod, either. And you are well within your right to lobby for a rule change you feel so strongly about (although the powers that be might not feel the same). But, until that change has come about, and if you do get your license, you really shouldn't/can't in all honesty let the diagonals factor in with your judging/scoring of a test.

sidepasser
Jun. 13, 2007, 03:01 PM
When I was taking lessons in dressage years ago, being very new to the sport and having never ridden english before..(so you know the background) I was told "change your diagonal" whenever I changed over X.

I never was clear about why I had to do that (as I was traveling in a straight line from corner to corner and at the middle was told, change diagonal).

I can see the reasoning in the hunter classes, but I never did understand why I had to do it in a dressage ring. Is there a reason? I was told to "always post on the outside" diagonal - but actually posting on the inside diagonal was much more comfortable for me and the horse actually felt better to me.

Now I see this "there are no correct diagonals" in dressage - so did I have to make the diagonal change for no reason? There never was a reason given except that it was the correct thing to do (said by instructor - not by myself as I was clueless but did as told).

This is all so confusing to those just learning..especially since instructor says "watch your diagonal....you are posting on the wrong diagonal"..well why do instructors say this if there is no "correct" diagonal? Do you teach posting on a certain diagonal when going in a certain direction around the arena?

now I am really confused about this..thanks for any enlightenment.

SillyHorse
Jun. 13, 2007, 03:01 PM
Please stop following me around, you will not convince me that I will fail as an artist and judge.

But way back in post #51 you wrote:
"Oh, also did you forget that I've mentioned numerous times that I didn't take this program to become a judge, but to better understand the biomechanics of the horses to better my dressage paintings? “L” program is not only for judges. So, truly, you don't even have to worry about me judging you SLC and down scoring you for posting on the wrong diagonal."

So which is it? (SillyHorse gets down on her little knees and prays that DA is kidding about becoming a judge...")

slc2
Jun. 13, 2007, 03:26 PM
When I was taking lessons in dressage years ago, being very new to the sport and having never ridden english before..(so you know the background) I was told "change your diagonal" whenever I changed over X.

--No. Not me. I was taught in the hunters to change at X, but in dressage, never. No one I have ever worked with in dressage has thought that was a good idea, that was the first thing I was told to change, yoiu change when you reach the track at the end of the diagonal (the last step before you turn onto the track). Your trainer probably had less dressage background. But frankly, I doubt you were destroyed by it. Just practicing being AWARE of the diagonal helps you to feel the gaits of the horse more.

I never was clear about why I had to do that (as I was traveling in a straight line from corner to corner and at the middle was told, change diagonal).

--it's just a tradition to do it at x. the reason i don't do it there is that it interrupts the fluency of the work. with a young horse, it definitely interrupts the horse, and young horses do that level of test so ergo.

I can see the reasoning in the hunter classes, but I never did understand why I had to do it in a dressage ring. Is there a reason? I was told to "always post on the outside" diagonal - but actually posting on the inside diagonal was much more comfortable for me and the horse actually felt better to me.

--the key in dressage is that you CHOOSE which one to use and THINK about what you''re doing with it. to rest the horse, outside diagonal. to work the inside hind leg evenly, inside. I switch back and forth during specific exercises as well.

Now I see this "there are no correct diagonals" in dressage - so did I have to make the diagonal change for no reason? There never was a reason given except that it was the correct thing to do (said by instructor - not by myself as I was clueless but did as told).

--Ok...(gives self pep talk....)

--Ok. here. YOU ARE NOT JUDGED ON WHICH DIAGONAL YOU ARE ON IN A SHOW. BECAUSE......the diagonal you CHOOSE is a TOOL for you. it's for schooling you and the horse. in a specific situation, a certain diagonal may be APPROPRIATE FOR YOU TO CHOOSE. YOU HAVE TO DECIDE THAT.

--there is no MORAL IMPERATIVE that you HAVE TO ALWAYS post on the outside diagonal. much of the time, you will be posting on the outside diagonal. but the key is to KNOW which one you're on, and to be able to MAKE USE OF IT.

-- it is like choosing to use an opening rein or a leading rein for a young horse. neither one is WRONG OR RIGHT. you choose the APPROPRIATE ONE.

This is all so confusing to those just learning..especially since instructor says "watch your diagonal....you are posting on the wrong diagonal"..well why do instructors say this if there is no "correct" diagonal? Do you teach posting on a certain diagonal when going in a certain direction around the arena?

--THEY SAY THIS BECAUSE THEY WANT TO START OUT BY MAKING YOU AWARE OF WHICH DIAGONAL YOU ARE ON AND MAKING IT SIMPLE AND CONSISTENT FOR YOU AS A BEGINNER. IT'S NOT TIME FOR YOU TO HAVE TO KNOW WHICH ONE TO CHOOSE YET.

(i'm not mad at you, it's just a long thread and i have to p** really bad right now)

--and of course, there are plenty of people 'teaching dressage' who believe the old myths. the pony club, hunt seat, yadda yadda yadda myths.

--but for now, it really doesn't matter at all. do what your instructor says. you aren't learning to train horses yet, so it doesn't matter.

-- the key for a beginner is to have something simple and appropriate for him or her to learn. this is fine for you for now. don't worry about anything right now. it's fine. just keep advised...later, when you are training at a higher level, training your own horse, showing at first, second, third level in hot company...going back and training your own training level horse.....the diagonal will become a tool you'll use to improve yourself and your horse. for now, it's enough to be able to KNOW which diagonal you're on and how to take a bounce and get back on it, and to have a STABLE enough seat that you can do that. it's good! it gives you something to concentrate on! the rest is way far in the future - so the answer is - don't worry! you're fine!

now I am really confused about this..thanks for any enlightenment.

caffeinated
Jun. 13, 2007, 03:35 PM
-- it is like choosing to use an opening rein or a leading rein for a young horse. neither one is WRONG OR RIGHT. you choose the APPROPRIATE ONE.

Could you explain how these differ? (I'm from hunterland and I swear we used these terms interchangeably, though I could just have not been paying attention)

sidepasser
Jun. 13, 2007, 04:04 PM
Thank you for the explanation slc2, I have learned alot by reading here but this diagonals discussion threw me a bit.

I do find it easier to change a diagonal at the end of the line across x rather than in the middle, but I am a good sheep and do as I am told - my horse - not so much - lol.

Dazednconfused
Jun. 13, 2007, 10:00 PM
Same thing. If the inside front is back, the outside front is forward. Your way of describing it seems so much harder to get, though! It's much easier for me to time things by the leg that's going forward, that when I try it the other way I have a hard time getting my brain around it. :)

Yeah, I always remembered it because of my first trainer saying: "Rise and fall with the leg on the wall" (Of course, it also took me like 3 years to learn my diagonals :rolleyes: )

Monday's Mom
Jun. 13, 2007, 11:46 PM
I would suggest for you to create a "posting on the other diagonal" clique, put it in your signature and always post on the opposite of traditional diagonal. I would love to see you execute your believes in the show ring - go for it - change your posting diagonal randomly, every 2, 3, 4 then 5 strides during the test for no reason what so ever or just don't even bother changing your diagonal thru the whole test ---- I'm sure everybody will ignore that - there is no rule about diagonals after all.

As for me - I'm posting on the traditionally correct diagonal in US in the show ring and you can't convince me to change that. That’s it for now; it’s quite boring to converse with some of you.

Do you even read the other posts? NOONE has said the diagonals are random. Just the opposite - you do what best balances the horse, etc etc. SillyHorse, slc2 and others have already explained it ad naseum.

Please don't become a judge...

SillyHorse, are you available for drinks? :yes:

SillyHorse
Jun. 14, 2007, 08:40 AM
You bet. :yes::cool::)

slc2
Jun. 14, 2007, 08:49 AM
you turn your hand over so your thumb points out with the leading rein, and the leading rein is loose. the opening rein is with a contact and used more for a further trained horse and the leading rein for a totally green one.

rideswithlyme
Jun. 14, 2007, 03:47 PM
An "R" Judge, and currently one of SIX in the United States who has qualified for and been accepted into the "S" Judges program said yesterday in a clinic that there is only ONE box to judge the rider and the rest are all about the horse. She mentioned, timely I might add, that a rider should not worry about correct or incorrect diagonal for posting but to just post the instant the horse goes forward. WOW! She went to say in much more poetic terms than I that as a JUDGE she did not care about the rider that the rider could be riding backwards if it made the horse - happy, balanced and willing.

Please note: After a successful graduation, candidates are referred to as “L” Graduates. “L” Graduates are NOT licensed dressage judges. Therefore, they may not advertise themselves as “L” judges. Straight from USDF.

I believe that the L is for LEARNER as it is in the hunter world. At a schooling show as a NOT YET "L" graduate watching a training level rider (perhaps a 10 year old girl on her first pony at her first show) that anyone cares that .002 of PRACTICE JUDGING is related to posting.

AllWeatherGal
Jun. 14, 2007, 05:17 PM
An "R" Judge, and currently one of SIX in the United States who has qualified for and been accepted into the "S" Judges program said yesterday in a clinic that there is only ONE box to judge the rider and the rest are all about the horse. She mentioned, timely I might add, that a rider should not worry about correct or incorrect diagonal for posting but to just post the instant the horse goes forward. WOW! She went to say in much more poetic terms than I that as a JUDGE she did not care about the rider that the rider could be riding backwards if it made the horse - happy, balanced and willing.


Well ... sorta. I recently talked with an "L" faculty member who noted that with the new coefficient of 3x for rider score, she felt it was necessary to comment on rider effect of aids throughout the test more than in previous years.

And I was blabbering to my own trainer (a licensed "S" judge of a few years now) about this thread and she did say (I write this with hat in hand ready to take a bite) very firmly that while she would NOT score based on diagonals, she has commented on "incorrect use of diagonals" in her remarks.

So, on the one hand, the rider can be upside down for all anyone cares, except that rider position and effect of aids often/usually (?) inextricably linked to the horse's performance.

rideswithlyme
Jun. 14, 2007, 07:29 PM
Hey there AWG -

I am glad that you mentioned that since I wanted to specifically say that the judge was not talking about a test when she discussed posting on any diagonal. Somedays I do think if I were riding backwards things might go better :). It seems whenever you are being "judged" whether in the ring or not - a multitude of things can play a part of the overall picture in the person doing the judging's mind. Some minds are worth riding in front of and others....ummmm not so much.