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fuller0819
Jun. 5, 2007, 09:07 PM
:sadsmile:

LynxMynx
Jun. 5, 2007, 09:57 PM
Shoulder-in:
Doesn't really look like much of anything; if the photo didn't have a caption I'd probably guess that you had just reversed direction. Judging by the rest of the photos, it look like trying for SI might be a bit much. Perhaps some leg-yielding or even just TOF or TOH would be a better use of time.

Collected walk:
Us "dressagies" tend to get our undies in a bunch when people go around using "collection" to mean slow or deep, so avoid using the term if you aren't sure what it means. Aside from that, the photo looks to be a trot frame? You're sitting up nicely, but your feet are quite deep in the stirrup and you've developed a chair seat. The horse seem like a real sweet guy, though it doesn't look like you've established much of a contact.

Extended trot:
Again, be careful of the terminology! It looks like you're trying really hard to hold things together, I'm guessin that the both of you were pulling on each other judging by your hands. You're heel has started to creep up and you're back in that chair seat.

You look like a competent rider with a very willing horse, but I'd suggest sticking to the basics for now. Trying to collect or extend when you don't have the working gaits down is not going to help you progress any faster.

fuller0819
Jun. 5, 2007, 10:38 PM
sorry to offend you with the word. i really didn't mean to but i would like to be called one, one day :D in the collected walk it's not slow he is just naturally slow :lol: his walk is the slowest thing in the world but we are trying for impulsion at it. i don't understand what you mean by deep could you help me out with that?:confused:

yes in the photo we look like we are pulling, but we are not i just am a little stiff coming from the hunters and my face always looks that way. sorry

i look like i'm constipated on him

fuller0819
Jun. 5, 2007, 10:41 PM
yep

bosox
Jun. 5, 2007, 10:44 PM
that my only recent discovery (3 yrs ago) for dressage was because I had a greenbean--and that my only tests have been in the eventing world--but my question is--if you are only 3 months into this (or still a greenie/horse greenie in dressage) why are you doing so much collection?

I don't know when the "dressage" tests ask for this--but for us eventers--it isn't until you are past prelim...

we just started getting out last fall-still green for the fact that he has no miles--but --I still want working/relaxed/length/free.

katarine
Jun. 5, 2007, 10:48 PM
Drop your stirrups and don't take pictures for 6 months. post new pics again then.

seriously- you are a longgggg way from changing collecting/engaging anything. You are at the bottom rung of the ladder. Chin up and keep after it-but no, that's no more a shoulder in than I'm a super model :D

ania
Jun. 6, 2007, 06:31 AM
I agree with what LynxMynx said-- don't worry about extending or collecting for a bit right now. In that picture under "collected trot" you can tell that he's stopped tracking up, which is what you don't want to happen. Just try to maintain a nice and forward rhythym and the rest will come later.

and I empathize with making faces when riding-- I've been taking lessons and the two railbirds who watch me (not that I mind! one is my sister and the other a good friend! :lol: ) made fun of me so I took a few rides on my own thinking "Ok, when you go to change something RELAX the face!" -- it has sort of worked ;)

Painted Wonder
Jun. 6, 2007, 06:41 AM
What type of bit are you using?

mbamissaz
Jun. 6, 2007, 08:56 AM
I must admit I always cringe when I see threads with titles such as this one.....

I agree with the other poster...be very careful about the terminology you're using (collected/extended) because that is likely to get under people's skin. think it looks like you're well matched with your horse, and he looks to be a nice handly guy. That being said, I would focus alot less on "collection" and alot more on "relaxation". You're at the beginning stages of learning dressage (just a hunch) and that's ok....but he looks tense...and so do you.

Are you riding with an instructor at the moment? If not, I think you should be...even if only once in a while. What type of a bit are you using? It looks like either a d-ring or a kimberwick. If it's the latter, it's not allowed in dressage so I'd be making changes there too.

Best of luck to you and your horse..and your continued progression together.

SillyHorse
Jun. 6, 2007, 09:22 AM
In every picture, there is little or no bend in your elbows and your knuckles are pointing down. This causes tension in your arms and hands, which causes tension in your horse. Let your arms hang down at your sides, then bring your hands up by bending your arms at the elbow. You must give your horse a soft receiving hand to go to so he can relax his jaw and softly go to the bit.

Feuerlilie
Jun. 6, 2007, 10:02 AM
Fuller......he is a cute and capable horse and looks like a lot of fun to ride,

If I were in your shoes....and I am just starting out in dressage I would get my hands on as many copies of dressage dvds as I can ....or go audit a whole heap of dressage clinics....educate yourself to as much as you can so you know what you are striving for...set goals relevant to yours and your hroses stages of training.

There is sooo much to learn.....and so much to do when you are riding that if you try and tell yourself you must collect your horse and he is not ready, I assure you that your horse will be worse off.

At you level of training and your horses you should be concentraiting on relaxation and rhythm and the basics. No collection or extentions! These dont come to WAY later in the game....and be prepared to go through a few horses before you even start to grasp what this means :eek: I dont mean that in a bad way,,,just that not one horse will teach you everything you need to learn.

And GET yourself a really good trainer :winkgrin:
Good luck!

Liz
Jun. 6, 2007, 10:43 AM
Has anyone ever been in the position that, no matter how bad they WANTED to take some lessons, they were just not in a position to be able to take lessons at the moment?

To the OP...if you can take some dressage lessons then do it.....an instructer would clear up some of the "technical" aspects some of the posters are talking about. If you can't then I would suggest getting some books or DVD's (as other posters have mentioned) to start to educate your self a bit better.

In the meantime, chin up......everyone starts at the bottom.

I would also like to echo what some of the other posters have said....don't worry about collection yet. You are not ready. You need to work on your position first. Focus more on a forward, relaxed, even tempo. Leave his head alone for now.

Good Luck.

Dalfan
Jun. 6, 2007, 10:46 AM
The Lesliw Webb series of videos - "Gymnastic Patterns" might help you out.

Agree with other posters as well.

Are you wearing spurs? Can't tell, and the last canter picture looks like it.

fuller0819
Jun. 6, 2007, 01:44 PM
by the way i'm not fuller0819 this is my friends computer. one issue i have is if i don't try to collect him he will look like a giraffe. he wants to look around with his head all in the air. we are trying to get him under himself and sometimes he is other times not so much:) in training level what level of collection is there?? does he not have to have a low nice head that is vertical?? thanks for your help

tempichange
Jun. 6, 2007, 01:53 PM
I don't know why you bother posting labels on those movements because none of the labels are accurate or true.

What you are doing is not correct by a long shot. And for your instructor/coach to be promoting it as correct is a very bad path to be going down, I suggest you become either a working student for a trainer or get yourself a solid coach.

He needs to be changed to a legal bit, he needs to be ridden at the very basics of the training scale and you need equipment that fits you.

Collection is a relative term, meaning depending on what you're doing and when is when the term and various stages of collection apply. What you are doing (and labeling as) essentially advanced (or upper level) collection and what you are showing is incorrect.

Yes, for training level the horse needs to be on the bit. However you're methood of achieving that is by craming him into a frame and letting him go hollow behind. You are riding severely front to back. The sport isn't about a frame, it's about the hind end and the engagement thereof. I suggest you drop the notion of a headset immediately and start looking to engage the hindquarter.

twnkltoz
Jun. 6, 2007, 02:10 PM
OP, what you should understand is that what dressage people call "collection" and "extension" is a far different thing from what pleasure riders (pleasure meaning rail classes and h/j riders may have the same view) call "collection" and "extension." In the pleasure world, they get the horse to set its head and call it collected...when in fact, collection needs to start at the hind end and involve the whole body. So...while you don't want his head up and looking around like a giraffe, having contact and having his head low and working is not the same as collection.

I've learned a lot on this board so don't be discouraged--one thing I've learned is that you have to learn the language in order to get good help!

mp
Jun. 6, 2007, 02:15 PM
I saw a few of the pics before you took them down. You have a nice horse, but you're trying to do way too much, too soon. Put him in a snaffle bit (that he likes) and concentrate on forward and relaxed. Don't worry about where his head is.

And you need eyes on the ground to tell you when you're getting it right. Even if you can only get a lesson every few weeks, a good instructor can give you one or two things to work on that will help you immensely.

Good luck and have fun with your horse.

Edited to add: Don't be discouraged. I know whereof I speak. I came from a breed show background and dressage is simply a different world -- and a better one, I think, in terms of really learning to ride. But you have to start at the beginning.

fuller0819
Jun. 6, 2007, 02:16 PM
i thought he was moving out of his hindend to the bit. but i guess not and everyone has gotten pretty mad about the collected part of it. if its wrong then let me know thats why i put this up but getting mad because i'm misunderstanding well i don't know. :( isn't collection moving off his hind to the bit with impulsion but covering the same ground as the working trot?? please correct me if i'm wrong. thanks

tempichange
Jun. 6, 2007, 02:27 PM
What you just wrote made no absolute sense.

He's so blocked up front how can he move off his hind end? His hind end is no where near engaged even for a training level test.

Collection is essentially the degree of sit (lowering), or engaging the haunch and is the result of achieving all elements of the scale.

Impulsion is the push from behind which results from looseness (I won't even attempt the German translation), relaxation, tempo, forwardness, shwung (swing) and connection.


I don't think anyone is mad here, but rather dispensing good, practical if not blunt advice.

Liz
Jun. 6, 2007, 02:45 PM
posted twice

twnkltoz
Jun. 6, 2007, 02:47 PM
fuller, my daughter does the same thing...just because someone's disagreeing with you or telling you you're doing or saying something wrong, doesn't mean they're mad.

Liz
Jun. 6, 2007, 02:48 PM
tempichange...everyone else was able to give advice without coming across quite so harsh. You can correct someone and be supporting at the same time.

"I don't know why you bother posting movements and lables when none of them are accurate or true" - tempichange

Come on...you don't think you could have worded that differently.

slc2
Jun. 6, 2007, 04:06 PM
I think you all are ragging on this person a wee bit too much. here you have an enthusiastic young person who wants to take on the world and is trying to figure out all sorts of things on her own, why not be encouraging.:no:

Original poster. I can't see your pics right now, but I will look at them at home. I am sure you are doing the best you know how to do right now.

It doesn't matter where a person is at NOW...everyone started out where they started out. The people ragging on you are I think forgetting they were right where you are now at one time.

I like it if someone is excited about dressage and tries different things. But to do it right, you do need someone guiding you. Even the world champion in dressage takes riding lessons! ALL the top riders have someone who helps them. A knowledgeable person standing there can see ALOT and give VERY good help.

From the comments, it sounds like you're having trouble getting the idea of what 'BENDING' means, and what 'ON THE BIT' means.

ON THE BIT.

First, ON THE BIT. I am sure PLENTY of people will tell you to twiddle the reins back and forth, and 'get the horse's head down'. they will tell you 'ON THE BIT' is when the horse has his head in a certain 'pose'. They may call it a 'frame' or even a 'headset'.

That's fine for other sports, but it doesn't work in dressage. If we try to pull their heads down and hold it down with the reins with tight or short reins, or even by just constantly bumping the bit, we aren't going to be able to do the REST of what dressage is supposed to be.

EVEN if the horse just by himself puts his head down and holds it there, it's not ON THE BIT.

That's really important and I want you to remember it. There will be a quiz tomorrow :)

Watch some riders ! If horsey doesn't respond by putting his little old head DOWN and KEEPING it down, they will twiddle harder! or get a martingale! or get a harder bit!

They are wrong. Now alot of people will tell you that 'ON THE BIT' is just how a horse holds his head, but it's not true. You can't get a horse on the bit by working the reins back and forth or holding his head down!

You will even see people riding where their horse's heads are wagging back and forth like mad, every step! What are they doing???? They aren't putting the horse on the bit, that's for sure! The horse is saying, "No, No NO, I am NOT on the bit" over and over :).

Let me ask you something. Have you ever seen a ballet dancer? They seem to just float along, so graceful.

Now, would it be ballet if their arms were held up with ropes, or if their legs were held in that beautiful pose by a chain?

No, it wouldn't be ballet. The beauty of ballet is that the person goes into these poses HERSELF. Because she is strong and muscular and practices each pose in tiny, gradual steps, gradually harder and harder, and because SHE does it, not a rope or a chain holding her there.

It's the same with the dressage horse. We exercise him and do work that ALLOWS him to be a dressage horse. We don't make him do it with the reins. We don't just not use the reins at all, but we have to be very careful HOW we use the reins so he can do things himself.

The reins kind of just guide him and help him get there himself. They don't hold him in a pose.

HEAD UP LIKE A GIRAFFE

If you have a horse that raises his head up 'like a giraffe', like you said, it gets a whole lot more harder, because you can't very well ride a giraffe at all, on the bit or any other way! And people will say to just throw the reins away and just LET him do that, because 'you can't put a horse on the bit with the reins' or because 'you have to ride from back to front'.

Some horses, if you let the reins longer or looser, they WILL put their heads down, all on their own. Some, if you just squeeze your legs and hold the reins lightly and keep your hands very 'quiet' (steady and still), the head will come down.

And some will not. THAT part...that's what a riding teacher has to help you with. A teacher can see exactly what is going on with THAT horse, and help you with THAT horse. each horse is different.

You DO have to get the horse in some kind of position where he isn't bashing you in the face with his neck, but that's just to be safe and to have some prayer of working and training him. If his neck and head are crammed up they're too stiff to do dressage.

But we have to have a way to do that that isn't going to INTERFERE wiith dressage training, ,either.

I'll talk about that more later. For now, I want you to just consider these general ideas I'm writing.

COLLECTION

Collected trot IS energetic, like a working trot is energetic. However, the shape of the horse's steps is different. His steps lift his feet more up in the air - not so much that it looks wierd or choppy or circusy.

It looks very smooth and natural and not choppy or extreme. Especially at the lower levels, it's not a big huge difference. But the judge and the trainer DO want to see a little change in his stride at the lower levels. It should be so slight that it's hard for someone watching to see it, unless they really know what to look for from experience.

Many people don't know this...but think about it. If a horse is reaching up more during collected gaits, his back feet won't reach as far forward. But to be a dressage horse at all, he has to reach forward with his hind legs - alot.

When he is collected, he reaches A TINY BIT LESS FORWARD with all his legs. But because he is a DRESSAGE HORSE, he STILL is going to need to reach forward quite a lot anyway with his hind legs. We are talking about he will reach LIKE TWO INCHES less forward with his hind legs in collection.

A collected gait, in dressage, is where the horse takes a very slightly shorter, higher stride. But it is STILL energetic and active and smooth. His balance changes some too. But the key is the SHAPE of his stride changes. Not much, but just a little to start.

Many people get way, way too complicated when they talk about collection. And when I read what they write, I wonder if they really understand what collection is. BASICALLY - it is that small change in the SHAPE of the stride. Let's keep it that simple just for now.

Trouble is, just like with ON THE BIT, you CANNOT get collection by slowing the horse down or pulling on the reins. That won't work. Collection is actually hard to get right. And for now, I'll just say, you cannot get it by slowing them down or pulling their heads up with the reins. Maybe other kinds of riding say so, but not dressage.

Alot of other subjects have been tossed around here. For now, let's keep it basic and get these basic things straight first. It takes time to learn all these things so don't get in a rush. And if you have alot of questions, don't worry. Just try to soak up the basic things first. You can't start jumping by charging at a 5'2'' wall, and learning dressage is like that too. Learning something is no crime...don'tEVER let anyone make you feel like that's a crime, and don't let these crabby old ladies make you feel bad! The ONLY reason they are getting excited is that they love dressage so much and they just get really into it. They don't mean any harm and they don't realize how they are making you feel.

tarragon
Jun. 6, 2007, 04:30 PM
Your bit looks like a Kimberwicke- if so, that is not a legal or accepted bit for dressage. A loose-ring snaffle is always correct and would be a good place to start in helping you gain a true connection, as would lessons with a good dressage instructor. Your very cute horse will find it easier to be more "uphill" ridden more forward from your leg into a milder bit, and if you focus more on engaging his hindquarters and bringing his back up and less on getting his head down. If you look closely at your pictures you'll notice that his withers and his neck in front of his withers are dropped down, and his neck is shortened.

fuller0819
Jun. 6, 2007, 04:37 PM
he really doesn't like a snaffle bit for some reason :confused: he rode in hunters in a o ring snaffle.. is there another bit that he could use?? if not i'll go back to that one. thanks everyone that has helped me in this post, you guys have been great, i am 15 and trying to learn and i have eyes on the ground watching and i guess we shouldn't say collected, but as someone told me "in frame" is more the word, that we really aren't collected. he doesn't have alot of knee action and doesn't step very high, would this be okay in training level when we get ready for it? mainly me relaxing and getting myself better first will help alot. thanks everyone thats been helpful and telling me the truth without ripping me one.;)

Dalfan
Jun. 6, 2007, 04:45 PM
Seriously, try and find those series of vids by L. Webb. Also the USDF series "On the Levels" might help you as well. Good luck.

tarragon
Jun. 6, 2007, 04:46 PM
This is a link to the Dressage section of the USEF rulebook- http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2007/08-DR.pdf

Permitted bits are listed on page 18.

You might find it helpful to read through the rulebook, as it is chock full of useful information.

mp
Jun. 6, 2007, 04:57 PM
he really doesn't like a snaffle bit for some reason :confused:

Do you know specifically what kind he was ridden in? He could have had teeth problems or the mouthpiece just didn't suit his mouth for some reason. The term "snaffle" just means the bit has no port and no shanks for leverage -- IOW, the amount of pressure you put on the reins is exactly the amount of pressure the horse feels in his mouth. (I hope that makes sense).

Can you borrow some snaffle bits to try on him and see what he prefers? Horses mouths are all different and there are all sorts of different kinds of snaffle mouthpieces -- fat, not so fat, steel, copper, jointed, not jointed. I'm sure there is a snaffle out there that he'd like. The trick is finding out which one without buying a bunch. ;)

As far as collection and on the bit, etc etc. They can be difficult concepts to grasp from the written word. Do you know anyone who rides dressage? Maybe you could watch someone ride while he or she narrates what the rider is doing. That would help you translate the words into what the horse should be doing.

And, again, lessons. Clean stalls, help out, do whatever, to get someone to give you some instruction. That will help you the most.

fuller0819
Jun. 6, 2007, 05:10 PM
Seriously, try and find those series of vids by L. Webb. Also the USDF series "On the Levels" might help you as well. Good luck.

i am i'm going to look on the internet and see if i can order them. thanks so much :yes:

twnkltoz
Jun. 6, 2007, 05:50 PM
My mare didn't like a regular snaffle because the joint hit the top of her mouth. I switched her to a french link and she was much happier.

Brady'smom
Jun. 6, 2007, 05:52 PM
Glad to see you here, and looking to find out more!

This is a good place to come to, and you will find encouragement and sound advice. You will also find that some of us don't always write things the way that we'd say them, and it can come across as harsh or discouraging - it is not meant to be! If people didn't genuinely care, they wouldn't take the time to write. :winkgrin:

That said, your picture labeled 'collected canter' - your horse's position is one my old riding friends used to call the 'motorbike' -- he is leaning around the corner like a motorcycle, and not carrying himself in balance. He seems to be going at high speed too -- he needs to because he isn't bent towards the inside of the turn and around your inside leg like a piece of macaroni. If he slowed down he'd fall over. You will note that his head is bent to the outside to counterbalance his body and his inside shoulder that is dropped and leaning in. This is because he just isn't strong enough yet through his side muscles/haunches/back to bend properly around the turn without losing balance. To fix this, you can begin with work on lots of trotting circles and transitions between walk/trot/walk/halt. Serpentines (snake-shapes) back and forth from one side of the ring to another are also good exercises, but make sure to keep the top of each loop REAAALY big till he starts to carry himself. Some big spirals are nice too - from a big circle like 80 feet going down to one of maybe 30 feet at walk and trot. You can get smaller as he gets better.
You will need a friend on the ground with a good eye/an instructor to watch you and your aids, so that you can in turn teach your horse.

Keep coming back, we are always around....

tempichange
Jun. 6, 2007, 05:54 PM
he really doesn't like a snaffle bit for some reason :confused: he rode in hunters in a o ring snaffle.. is there another bit that he could use?? if not i'll go back to that one. thanks everyone that has helped me in this post, you guys have been great, i am 15 and trying to learn and i have eyes on the ground watching and i guess we shouldn't say collected, but as someone told me "in frame" is more the word, that we really aren't collected. he doesn't have alot of knee action and doesn't step very high, would this be okay in training level when we get ready for it? mainly me relaxing and getting myself better first will help alot. thanks everyone thats been helpful and telling me the truth without ripping me one.;)

Outline is a better word, frame implies rigidity.

While gaits are important, you do not need superior gaits to win, especially at the lower levels. You need a consistant, accurate performance.

fuller0819
Jun. 6, 2007, 06:06 PM
he is very constitant in his gaits. he never slows or speeds unless asked to. he actually is moving slow in the canter picture the photo just looks like we are flying. :confused: i have been working with figure 8s and 20 m circle at the moment and i will start trying to bend him in more around my leg in my turns. he is a good boy and puts up with my mistakes. :yes: i love him to death but i don't want to screw him up either. this is a difficult journey we are on i see and i'm glad for the support and help. he is pretty accurate as well. we are going to try training level since its working gaits as soon as i teach myself to relax and not look like i'm trying so hard.

tempichange
Jun. 6, 2007, 07:07 PM
he is very constitant in his gaits. he never slows or speeds unless asked to. he actually is moving slow in the canter picture the photo just looks like we are flying. :confused:

Your F-Stops on your camera are too slow.


i have been working with figure 8s and 20 m circle at the moment and i will start trying to bend him in more around my leg in my turns. he is a good boy and puts up with my mistakes. :yes: i love him to death but i don't want to screw him up either. this is a difficult journey we are on i see and i'm glad for the support and help. he is pretty accurate as well. we are going to try training level since its working gaits as soon as i teach myself to relax and not look like i'm trying so hard.

You have to be accurate, not the horse. Another rule of thumb to remember show one level under what you're schooling.

Jealoushe
Jun. 6, 2007, 08:18 PM
The problem with your bit isthat pulls on the poll and forces the head down and to make the horse look like it is in frame. What does your horse do to show you it doesnt like a snaffle? If it is because he will no longer be in frame or he puts his head up then it is the riding style that needs to be changed. Almost every horse loves a happy mouth, try that. I would also suggest lengthening your stirrup when you get your new saddle, your position is more for the jumper ring.

I would really suggest spending your money on a good dressage coach rather than shows. You have a long time to show and its better to spend your money on improving than wasting your money on going to a show and getting discouraged. Not trying to come across harsh it would just be much better if you had some good schooling and went out to shows really knowing what you were doing. Good luck.

slc2
Jun. 7, 2007, 07:48 AM
It is really great when a person gets interested in dressage at such a young age. This is the best time to learn it.

I was really interested in dressage even as a very young teen. I was actually in a club called the 'Lipizanner Horse Club' which was almost all teenagers, and one of the riders at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna, Austria used to write to us and tell us about how he was learning to ride and what it was like learning dressage there (it was Karl Mikolka). Another person in the club was 'Chrissy Hanson', who was 18 at the time. She is now Christilot Boylen-Hanson and is a famous rider. To give you an idea of how long ago this was...this was before email. and that's all I have to say about how long ago it was.

We didn't have dressage horses but we tried like mad to get our old, shambly school horses to do everything the Lipizanners did. I guess we looked pretty funny to more experienced people, but we were just on fire to learn everything.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the horse's bit right now, or change it just based on what people here say. Work with a dressage instructor, and work out with the instructor which bit to use.

Some horses just have to be ridden in the bit they're used to or go well in. Some horse's mouths have been toughened up too much by previous owners to go in the most popular bit.

Later, if you show this horse, you and your instructor can work out what works best for that horse. For now, use what keeps you in control and your horse is comfortable with.

mp
Jun. 7, 2007, 11:03 AM
It is really great when a person gets interested in dressage at such a young age. This is the best time to learn it.

I was really interested in dressage even as a very young teen. I was actually in a club called the 'Lipizanner Horse Club' which was almost all teenagers, and one of the riders at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna, Austria used to write to us and tell us about how he was learning to ride and what it was like learning dressage there (it was Karl Mikolka). Another person in the club was 'Chrissy Hanson', who was 18 at the time. She is now Christilot Boylen-Hanson and is a famous rider. To give you an idea of how long ago this was...this was before email. and that's all I have to say about how long ago it was.

We didn't have dressage horses but we tried like mad to get our old, shambly school horses to do everything the Lipizanners did. I guess we looked pretty funny to more experienced people, but we were just on fire to learn everything.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the horse's bit right now, or change it just based on what people here say. Work with a dressage instructor, and work out with the instructor which bit to use.

Some horses just have to be ridden in the bit they're used to or go well in. Some horse's mouths have been toughened up too much by previous owners to go in the most popular bit.

Later, if you show this horse, you and your instructor can work out what works best for that horse. For now, use what keeps you in control and your horse is comfortable with.

Just a few thoughts ...

Some riders need to know the bit they're using would get them DQ'd at a show.

Some young people aren't aware there are nearly endless varieties of snaffle bits and they will be able to find one that will work for their horse.

Some posters also recommended instruction and managed to do so in less than book-length posts.

I met Roy Rogers when I was 5 and I have his autograph.

SillyHorse
Jun. 7, 2007, 11:08 AM
You know, it really defeats the purpose of having a person on an ignore list if you all keep quoting that person. :lol:

slc2
Jun. 7, 2007, 11:09 AM
you must be so proud.

my point is that teens need to be encouraged, not discouraged. people who start with a very early interest in dressage can go very far. my point is also that although as kids we didn't have dressage horses or instructors, we still had a lot of fun.

there are snaffle bits that can be used instead of kimberwickes, usually with a caveson. that can cost from fifty dollars up, and there's no sense in buying something and then finding out it's not at all what an instructor thinks will work.

i prefer an instructor to work that out with a person, not a bulletin board, because any new bit has to be fitted to the horse and the results analyzed. until an instructor can see the situation, one at least knows the horse and rider are safe and under control. too, if the horse's mouth is tough, a bit change is not going to solve any problems and it may create a few of its own.

for example, if ridden for long in a kimberwicke the horse may now simply not respond to any less bit; a kimberwicke has a leverage (and usually a curb chain) and other snaffle bits don't have exactly the same action. a thinner bit or a baucher snaffle may make the horse absolutely frantic, and a thick snaffle may offer the rider no control at all. yes there are other types of snaffles. but bits aren't particularly cheap these days; i still maintain an experienced person who sees the horse and rider is the best to choose the bit.

the kimberwicke may be needed until the instructor can work through some reschooling of the horse, and since most people start out at small or schooling shows where there are few rules about bits, it's not something that HAS to change RIGHT NOW.

Brady'smom
Jun. 7, 2007, 11:14 AM
MP - several good points, but your last comment? Meeoooww.

The BB is free for all to post on, whether it be a terse one word comment, or a novelette. I myself have typed a tome or two.

Unless Erin has started charging by the word and sending the bill on to your account, what's it to ya?

mp
Jun. 7, 2007, 12:44 PM
I myself have typed a tome or two.

If they're mostly BS, I'll be sure to bring it to your attention, too.

Brady'smom
Jun. 7, 2007, 12:51 PM
Badly Spelled? :D:D:D:D

mp
Jun. 7, 2007, 04:46 PM
Ummmm .... no. But a BS check software program would be a very good thing, don't you think?

~Freedom~
Jun. 7, 2007, 05:24 PM
Another person in the club was 'Chrissy Hanson', who was 18 at the time. She is now Christilot Boylen-Hanson and is a famous rider. To give you an idea of how long ago this was...this was before email. and that's all I have to say about how long ago it was.



Yup it was before email, in fact that would be 1965 and just after CHB rode in the Tokyo Olympics and was training under von Neindorff in Germany. It was during that time she was busy writing one of the books published later called Canadian Entry. I am assuming this is one of the books you read SLC?

You know SLC she hardy had time to belong to any "club" and I am wondering if your "Chrissy" was someone else just using that name.( she hated to be called that so unlikely she would EVER sign up under "Chrissy")

Brady'smom
Jun. 7, 2007, 05:58 PM
Ummmm .... no. But a BS check software program would be a very good thing, don't you think?


Tee hee hee! :lol::lol::lol: A VERY good thing!

fuller0819
Jun. 7, 2007, 06:14 PM
i am helping this girl with her dressage, i mainly do hunter/jumper and western so we are not up to date on the terms in dressage and we are just going to do training level with this guy for a couple years and they are going to by a horse that is trained. he is working very hard and my eyes try to help as much as possible. i am by no means a dressage trainer but i can help her to get the horse using his hindend and carrying himself correctly and work on her relaxation, she knows she needs to relax and she has hard hard problems with that. he is such a good horse and he does anything to please her. the reason we are using the kimberwicke is because he will ride in a o ring snaffle but he pulls againist her ALOT in it:confused: he has always used an o ring and i don't like seeing anything harsher in the mouth if not needed, all we have are o rings, a full cheek, and the kimberwicke here. we know the kimberwicke is illegal but we are just playing around with a few different bits that i have to see what he likes best. this is the one he goes best in and we are trying to look for something that would take the place of this bit, he doesn't need the curb chain at all, i thought about a pelham but we don't know if thats legal at training level ??? we are learning most of the rules together and its a journey. :) if anyone has a suggestion to sub. the kimberwicke with that would be great. thanks

SillyHorse
Jun. 7, 2007, 06:51 PM
You know SLC she hardy had time to belong to any "club" and I am wondering if your "Chrissy" was someone else just using that name.( she hated to be called that so unlikely she would EVER sign up under "Chrissy") Busted!:lol:

MyReality
Jun. 7, 2007, 06:51 PM
Now we have a h/j rider who does western on a dressage board... talking about a friend...

Haven't you guys learn by now, when people say "apples", SLC will say "orange".

So when others say "what a great horse. Kimberwick is fine"... guess what she will say? As a matter of fact, we seldom see her taking the super nice everything a-ok stance (as in this thread), until, of course, everyone said it is not ok or take a firmer position.

Just my observation. But I am NOT saying she is wrong. and she often brings other ideas to the thread.

I think it is actually an interesting topic. Will I use a kimberwick? No. I haven't got on a horse for a long long time that can only be controlled simply by a stronger bit. A strong horse I can ride, without a kimberwick. A dangerous horse, I am not getting on.

However, if there is this horse, and I believe a handful exist, that can be ridden ONLY with a kimberwick, and I must ride him due to whatever circumstances, yes I will use a kimberwick or whatever strong crazy bit that the horse want. I have the same opinion about draw reins and other not so ideal things, like feeding your horse quietex.

Training level, always snaffle. There is no other choice.

fuller0819
Jun. 7, 2007, 07:15 PM
the problem is that he is really easy to control. no issues there at all he listens great and doesn't have a problem doing what she says, he just tends to pull out on the o ring. he pulls againist her hands but he never trys to run off with her at all. the kimberwicke she has used a few times and he seems to really like it, he doesn't bite on it or pull away and she is very aware (which i still have to get on her a little) of what her hands are doing and that she isn't yanking or cranking on him. i know the photos look like she is really pulling sooo sooo hard but really shes not she is just TENSE+++++ this has made him more tense, but we put the oring back on him today and he started again with pulling away and just doesn't seem happy to go in it. i don't think he likes where the pressure is placed in the mouth on the oring. this is why we need something that will somewhat work like the kimberwicke but maybe not as harsh and thats legal.

tempichange
Jun. 7, 2007, 07:15 PM
the reason we are using the kimberwicke is because he will ride in a o ring snaffle but he pulls againist her ALOT in it:confused: he has always used an o ring and i don't like seeing anything harsher in the mouth if not needed, all we have are o rings, a full cheek, and the kimberwicke here. we know the kimberwicke is illegal but we are just playing around with a few different bits that i have to see what he likes best. this is the one he goes best in and we are trying to look for something that would take the place of this bit, he doesn't need the curb chain at all, i thought about a pelham but we don't know if thats legal at training level ??? we are learning most of the rules together and its a journey. :) if anyone has a suggestion to sub. the kimberwicke with that would be great. thanks

You never, ever, ever put a stronger bit in to solve your problem. You solve your problem by training. If he's leaning then let him fall on his own bloody face. She shouldn't have to support his weight. And the reason he's probably leaning is because she's pulling him into a frame.

Pelhams are illegal at all levels of dressage.

Train in whats legal and learn to ride correctly.

fuller0819
Jun. 7, 2007, 07:29 PM
Now we have a h/j rider who does western on a dressage board... talking about a friend...

well myreality do you have a problem with this, do you think we are not good enough to get help from the dressage board?? are you to good for us because we are h/j and western riders?? yes we ride western on the trails, we show h/j, trying to learn a new dis. and OH MY GOD WE HAVE A H/J WHO DOES WESTERN ON A DRESSAGE BOARD. :eek::eek::eek: give me a break yes she is 15years old and is interested in this dis. i'm trying to help her all i can at this point. all we want to know is about the BIT.

ALL YOU GUYS THAT HAVE BEEN VERY NICE WE THANK YOU SO MUCH AND WE LOVE THE CRITICISM IT HAS OPENED OUR EYES TO ALOT OF THINGS THANKS FOR THAT. WE ARE LEARNING AND I'M GLAD YOU UNDERSTAND THIS AND I THANK YOU FOR WELCOMING US TO DRESSAGE AND GIVING US YOUR CRITIQUE WITHOUT BEING STUCK UP ABOUT IT.

MAYBE I'M TAKING THIS THE WRONG WAY MYREALITY AND IF I AM LET ME KNOW BUT THIS IS THE WAY IT SOUNDS TO ME.

fuller0819
Jun. 7, 2007, 07:30 PM
THANKS TEMPI, I ALWAYS TRY TO GO LESS, BUT LIKE I SAID WE WERE TRYING WHAT WE HAVE, WE ARE GOING BACK TO THE O RING (WE DID TODAY) AND ARE GOING TO START WITH HER RELAXING BEFORE WE ASK IT OF HIM.

tempichange
Jun. 7, 2007, 07:56 PM
Now we have a h/j rider who does western on a dressage board... talking about a friend...

well myreality do you have a problem with this, do you think we are not good enough to get help from the dressage board?? are you to good for us because we are h/j and western riders?? yes we ride western on the trails, we show h/j, trying to learn a new dis. and OH MY GOD WE HAVE A H/J WHO DOES WESTERN ON A DRESSAGE BOARD. :eek::eek::eek: give me a break yes she is 15years old and is interested in this dis. i'm trying to help her all i can at this point. all we want to know is about the BIT.

Western, hunter and dressage are vastly different disciplines that takes a vastly different horse. This is what causes much eyebrow raising when somebody says or does the jack of all trades deal.

Dressage is a specialist sport, it takes training and discipline. She needs to realise this now prior to her starting this, that this training must be carried out correctly both on horse and rider's end. Especially on the horses end. Begin her on a lunge line and progress from there. Any rider who has ridden under coaches who know their stuff will tell you that the lunge line, despite prior experience is where they began, and remained until they mastered a quite a few things.

And there is no reason to shout. Don't type in caps.

~Freedom~
Jun. 7, 2007, 07:58 PM
the problem is that he is really easy to control. no issues there at all he listens great and doesn't have a problem doing what she says, he just tends to pull out on the o ring. he pulls againist her hands but he never trys to run off with her at all. the kimberwicke she has used a few times and he seems to really like it,

First you say he is easy to control but in the same sentence you say he is pulling on the O ring. I assume you mean he is getting his mouth on the actual ring part of the bit?

Horses will grab at bit shanks but this is the first I ever heard of the rings being grabbed at.:confused:

IF that is the case then get a full cheek snaffle. Simple, easy and legal. If he is simply pulling on the bit then there is way more going on here and too many possibilities are open to various interpertations to give you a better answer without more detailed information. He may "like" the kimberwick because of the potentially more severe action that bit will produce on himself and any resistance will result in some degree of pain?

If that is not what you are saying you need to be more precise in what is actually going wrong here.

fuller0819
Jun. 7, 2007, 09:08 PM
he never did western just hunter, but i understand what your saying it is very difficult to change him if he can change, she doesn't have a lot of money right now and they are trying this out on this horse because he is a good boy and is very willing, this way she can learn to relax and the basic and then move to a horse that is more uphill built and would work better in the dressage ring. we have went to the lunge, aganist what she wanted because she hates lunging but i made her because i agree that lunging is the foundation to everything.

vanillabean
Jun. 7, 2007, 09:15 PM
When you say "O" ring I guess you mean loose ring? What kind of mouth piece does it have? Single jointed, double jointed, etc? Thickness?

tempichange
Jun. 7, 2007, 09:25 PM
he never did western just hunter, but i understand what your saying it is very difficult to change him if he can change, she doesn't have a lot of money right now and they are trying this out on this horse because he is a good boy and is very willing, this way she can learn to relax and the basic and then move to a horse that is more uphill built and would work better in the dressage ring. we have went to the lunge, aganist what she wanted because she hates lunging but i made her because i agree that lunging is the foundation to everything.

I'm not talking about change, I'm talking about putting solid basics on a combination that lacks them. I remember for the first year, on a PSG schoolmaster, that I had my stirrups and reins taken away. I had to earn those back. Give her an SOS strap, and tell her to earn them back, but also give her the tools to go back to time after time at a later date.

Yes, a horse that is bred for the sport is nice, but take it from someone who rides an evenly built welsh cob, if the horse is willing and trainable, half the battle is already won.

slc2
Jun. 7, 2007, 11:17 PM
yes, under different circumstances i might think something entirely different about the person having a kimberwicke. it all depends on what's going on and what the situation is. i have seen enough kids bouncing around on their heads upside down because someone insisted they had to switch to a different bit. On the other hand, if it was an adult getting ready to show and going to a new trainer and asking, 'do you think she'll want me to get another bit, should i?' the answer might be entirely different. they have supervision and someone to help them on site, and they have to get out of that bit fairly soon to show....it's different. every situation is different.

Sigh...fuiller,i can't say these gals are being 'passionate' about dressage any more or 'concerned' about you learning. I do think they are just giving you a hard time because you're younger and starting out. It makes me sick to think what sort of impression you're getting of dressage riders. FYI, we aren't all like this and at some barns, we have a lot of fun and learn too. and welcome new riders.

Ghazzu
Jun. 8, 2007, 12:41 AM
Western, hunter and dressage are vastly different disciplines that takes a vastly different horse. This is what causes much eyebrow raising when somebody says or does the jack of all trades deal.



I don't think that's at all true at the lower levels.
Certainly not at training level.
Any horse suitable for sitting on ought to be able to turn in a respectable test at training level.

hitchinmygetalong
Jun. 8, 2007, 06:24 AM
Sigh...fuiller,i can't say these gals are being 'passionate' about dressage any more or 'concerned' about you learning. I do think they are just giving you a hard time because you're younger and starting out.

I don't agree.

I think they are giving her "a hard time" because they are giving her sound advice that she does not want to hear.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the OP changed identities somewhere in this thread? I appears she started out as a learner and suddenly she has become a trainer? I'm :confused:

Spiritpaws
Jun. 8, 2007, 06:35 AM
Dressage is a sport of patience, and I think it's hard at age 15 to surrender to the steps required (being on a lunge line, developing a seat, overcoming rider tension, learning the fundamentals of the training scale, etc).

So to the OP I wish for you the patience to take a deep breath and allow yourself the time to become the rider you wish to be.

partlycloudy
Jun. 8, 2007, 06:48 AM
I train regularly with a young lady of 18...her raw enthusiasm is contagious and both our riding has improved tremendously...please don't discourage young people from diving into dressage...

slc2
Jun. 8, 2007, 07:31 AM
"she has become a trainer"

every time you ride, you're training your horse.

and ah...how do you expect her to react, after the reception she got here.

some of the statements made, i'm sorry, i just think they're absurd...like that a kid riding at the lower levels of dressage at local shows can't use a western or hunt seat horse, or it's so entirely different. the competition is NOT at an olympic level, there, guys.

Maria
Jun. 8, 2007, 07:34 AM
I haven't read all the responses, but some comments a the few I have read:



Perhaps you could try some different size mouth O rings. Maybe the O ring you are using doesn't fit this particular horse. Fiddle around with larger mouth pieces, smaller mouth pieces, french link, the ones with the "peanuts", double jointed, single jointed, mullen mouth... all horses mouths are conformed differently, low palate, short/long lips blah blah blah

To help get the horse off the forehand and quit leaning on the bit, perhaps add lots of transitions to the horses training program. Encouraging the horse to engage his hind end, step under himself, lift the shoulders. When asking for the up transition, lighten the hand just a bit to allow the horse to go forward.

Make sure the rider is sitting UP, thinking UP, eyes forward, allow the leg to open from the hip and drape down on the horse so that the leg lies softly on the horses side asking the hind legs to come under. In dressage you don't want the knees pinching into the saddle, this can block the shoulder. Make sure the riders seat is balanced, sitting on the 3 sitting bones, softly. Keep working on the riders hands, steady, consistant contact, but also allowing, no death grip.

Don't know if any of the above information is useful at all or even makes sense, and will probably be argued with, so take it for what it is worth. It's an internet bb afterall. :) Good luck.

~Freedom~
Jun. 8, 2007, 07:47 AM
"she has become a trainer"

every time you ride, you're training your horse.



Makes a mental note here. Now I can call myself a BNT.:winkgrin::D:)

Lancaster9
Jun. 8, 2007, 08:08 AM
Western, hunter and dressage are vastly different disciplines that takes a vastly different horse. This is what causes much eyebrow raising when somebody says or does the jack of all trades deal.

Tempi, I'm surprised at this comment. Maybe you didn't mean it in the way it came across, and if so feel free to correct me... But aren't we always insisting that dressage is useful to all disciplines? I for one was trained with classical methods from the time I was 12, but it never stopped my trainers from encouraging me to have a go at H/J, Western and other disciplines - with correct principles in mind of course. Implying that a good dressage combo can't also be effective in other disciplines and vice-versa seems a bit elitist. (The little Morgan-owning voice in my head is dying to be heard on this matter but I'm resisting the urge to give it free rein!). It seems to me that a good foundation of forward, straight and relaxed is useful - and attainable - by riders of any ilk.

hitchinmygetalong
Jun. 8, 2007, 09:28 AM
I'm still confused.

Post #14

by the way i'm not fuller0819 this is my friends computer.

Post #25

i am 15 and trying to learn

Post #46

i am helping this girl with her dressage

Are two different people posting under the same user name?

And posted earlier by slc2:

Original poster. I can't see your pics right now, but I will look at them at home. I am sure you are doing the best you know how to do right now.

slc2, did you ever look at the pictures? They have been removed from the original post but are linked in post #4

fuller0819
Jun. 8, 2007, 09:33 AM
I don't agree.

I think they are giving her "a hard time" because they are giving her sound advice that she does not want to hear.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the OP changed identities somewhere in this thread? I appears she started out as a learner and suddenly she has become a trainer? I'm :confused:

1st OF ALL I AM HER H/J TRAINER AND I HAVE TAKEN THIS GIRL FROM NOT SHOWING TO GHJA RATED SHOWS AND WINNING IN A YEARS TIME AND THIS INCLUDES HER HORSE HAVING TO BE TRAINED TO JUMP CORRECTLY AND SAFELY. I AM NOT A DRESSAGE TEACHER AND I DON'T CLAIM TO BE BUT I AM TRYING TO HELP HER FOR REASON THAT YOU PROBABLY WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND.

2ND OF ALL SHE IS A LEARNER AS WELL AS MYSELF IN DRESSAGE, I KNOW THE BASICS BUT UPPER LEVEL THERE'S NOWAY I COULD TAKE HER ANYWHERE WITH IT AND SHE KNOWS THIS

3RD THIS STUDENT IS LIKE A SISTER TO ME AND STAYS WITH ME OFTEN SHE ASKED IF SHE COULD GET ON B'CAUSE SHE IS NOT A MEMBER AND SHE WANTED TO POST A FEW PICTURES. I SAID SURE.

4TH WE LOVE CRITIQUE AND IF YOU READ THE WHOLE THREAD :eek: YOU WILL SEE WE WELCOME IT, WE DON'T WELCOME SHEAR MEANESS LIKE SOME PEOPLE, BUT MOST HAVE BEEN GREAT IN HELPING AND TELLING HER WHAT SHE IS DOING WRONG AND WHAT THE CORRECT TERM IS FOR THINGS.

SO DON'T SAY THEY ARE GIVING US SOUND ADVICE THAT WE DON'T WANT TO HEAR, IF YOU LOOK BACK AND READ ALL THREADS YOU WILL SEE WE ARE TAKING THIS ADVICE!!! DON'T BE SO SUSPCIOUS LIKE SOMEONE IS OUT TO GET YOU I LET A 15 YR. OLD FAMILY FRIEND USE MY COMPUTER TO GIVE INFORMATION ON DRESSAGE AND SOME HELP. GIVE ME A BREAK

fuller0819
Jun. 8, 2007, 09:36 AM
I'm still confused.

Post #14


Post #25


Post #46


Are two different people posting under the same user name?

And posted earlier by slc2:


slc2, did you ever look at the pictures? They have been removed from the original post but are linked in post #4
YOU ARE JUST MEAN AND NEED TO GET OVER YOURSELF,YES TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE WERE POSTING UNDER THE SAME USER NAME ONE DAY!!!:eek::eek::eek:

fuller0819
Jun. 8, 2007, 09:42 AM
a

hitchinmygetalong
Jun. 8, 2007, 09:55 AM
1st OF ALL I AM HER H/J TRAINER AND I HAVE TAKEN THIS GIRL FROM NOT SHOWING TO GHJA RATED SHOWS AND WINNING IN A YEARS TIME AND THIS INCLUDES HER HORSE HAVING TO BE TRAINED TO JUMP CORRECTLY AND SAFELY. I AM NOT A DRESSAGE TEACHER AND I DON'T CLAIM TO BE BUT I AM TRYING TO HELP HER FOR REASON THAT YOU PROBABLY WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND.

2ND OF ALL SHE IS A LEARNER AS WELL AS MYSELF IN DRESSAGE, I KNOW THE BASICS BUT UPPER LEVEL THERE'S NOWAY I COULD TAKE HER ANYWHERE WITH IT AND SHE KNOWS THIS

3RD THIS STUDENT IS LIKE A SISTER TO ME AND STAYS WITH ME OFTEN SHE ASKED IF SHE COULD GET ON B'CAUSE SHE IS NOT A MEMBER AND SHE WANTED TO POST A FEW PICTURES. I SAID SURE.

4TH WE LOVE CRITIQUE AND IF YOU READ THE WHOLE THREAD :eek: YOU WILL SEE WE WELCOME IT, WE DON'T WELCOME SHEAR MEANESS LIKE SOME PEOPLE, BUT MOST HAVE BEEN GREAT IN HELPING AND TELLING HER WHAT SHE IS DOING WRONG AND WHAT THE CORRECT TERM IS FOR THINGS.

SO DON'T SAY THEY ARE GIVING US SOUND ADVICE THAT WE DON'T WANT TO HEAR, IF YOU LOOK BACK AND READ ALL THREADS YOU WILL SEE WE ARE TAKING THIS ADVICE!!! DON'T BE SO SUSPCIOUS LIKE SOMEONE IS OUT TO GET YOU I LET A 15 YR. OLD FAMILY FRIEND USE MY COMPUTER TO GIVE INFORMATION ON DRESSAGE AND SOME HELP. GIVE ME A BREAK

Thank you for clarifying who was posting what where. I am sorry if I upset you. Good luck with this lovely little horse.

fuller0819
Jun. 8, 2007, 10:03 AM
thanks so much i will tell her, she will not be posting on here anymore as herself, she is going to have to get her on screen name to post. its just to confusing for everyone and i kept trying to explain without a long paragraph like i had to use :lol: and i really don't like being called a liar.

we went back to the snaffle yesterday and i'm waiting for her dressage saddle to get her and i will take her irons away, we are starting on the lunging again and as well as her breathing to relax. we are not LABELING anything with a name :D sorry for that and we are keeping to the basics. yesterday we ran thru a dressage test i made up just to work on her consitancy and the horses as well as the rhythm. he really has a wonderful rhythm and stays there the whole time. thanks everyone

tempichange
Jun. 8, 2007, 10:08 AM
Tempi, I'm surprised at this comment. Maybe you didn't mean it in the way it came across, and if so feel free to correct me... But aren't we always insisting that dressage is useful to all disciplines? I for one was trained with classical methods from the time I was 12, but it never stopped my trainers from encouraging me to have a go at H/J, Western and other disciplines - with correct principles in mind of course. Implying that a good dressage combo can't also be effective in other disciplines and vice-versa seems a bit elitist. (The little Morgan-owning voice in my head is dying to be heard on this matter but I'm resisting the urge to give it free rein!). It seems to me that a good foundation of forward, straight and relaxed is useful - and attainable - by riders of any ilk.

I'm not saying dressage training isn't universal up until a point, however, it takes a different (should have inserted type of) horse to do western and hunter and dressage. It's like doing a jack of all trades and being master of... none. I do believe in cross training (I train all the horses to jump, I go out for conditioning sets, et all) but in the end it's for the purpose of the sport I've choosen.

Can he do all three successfully at some level? Yes, but beyond training, maybe first, it becomes ultimately a specialist sport.

With this paticular situation the girl needs to sit down, and truly make up her mind whether or not she wants to do it, and not just half arse it.

And fulller, do not type in caps, its rude.

Brady'smom
Jun. 8, 2007, 10:14 AM
And fulller, do not type in caps, its rude.

If you were not aware fuller, when one types in all capital letters on line at any internet site or via email, it is considered to be 'shouting', so unless we are trying to convey our thoughts with an angry or imperative !!!!, restricting to normal caps and lower case results in less offence taken. (hopefully this takes the sting from the directive quoted above :sadsmile:)

swgarasu
Jun. 8, 2007, 10:30 AM
I'm not saying dressage training isn't universal up until a point, however, it takes a different (should have inserted type of) horse to do western and hunter and dressage. It's like doing a jack of all trades and being master of... none. I do believe in cross training (I train all the horses to jump, I go out for conditioning sets, et all) but in the end it's for the purpose of the sport I've choosen.

Can he do all three successfully at some level? Yes, but beyond training, maybe first, it becomes ultimately a specialist sport.

With this paticular situation the girl needs to sit down, and truly make up her mind whether or not she wants to do it, and not just half arse it.


I think Podhajsky disagreed with you- he felt hunting was a great way to get a dressage horse forward. He felt that it was too dangerous to do with his competition mounts because he had a horse slam a leg into a hole while out galloping. In "the new basic training for the young horse" they recommend doing dressage, jumping, and going cross country, untill the horse shows more talent for one career or another. Stallion testing isn't just for dressage, or just for jumping- a sporthorse should be able to do BOTH, and there are horses that have done both Grand Prix Dressage and Grand Prix showjumping. I've ridden former grand prix showjumping horses and they were really fun to do dressage on, because they were so athletic. I imagine there would probably be some eventers annoyed by your statements.
At 15 I was happily showing hunters, eventing, trailriding, and doing tr/1st level dressage with my QH. We didn't win every class but we won some and placed in most. I loved his trail experience- he didn't give a damn about flowers or chain arenas, trash cans or sprinklers because he was like "eh, I've seen worse".
I will conceed that western pleasure would be pretty counter-intuitive however- I do not think there is a way to keep "forward" in that discipline.

fuller0819
Jun. 8, 2007, 10:48 AM
?

Jealoushe
Jun. 8, 2007, 11:03 AM
fuller... I think its great you have helped this girl with her hunter work, however you have given a clear impression that neither of you know anything about dressage. Do you think it might be a better idea if this rider got help from someone who is experienced with training horses/riders in dressage?

Like has been said, a stronger bit is not the answer, the riding needs to improve. Is the horse opening his mouth to pull?? If so, try using a flash.

fuller0819
Jun. 8, 2007, 11:14 AM
training level is what we are going for here with this horse. nothing more. she always top in her eq. classes on flat because this horse is wonderful. he is very responsive. the harsher bit issue-i understand a kimberwicke is a harsher bit, we put it on him to see what he thought, she has easy hands on him and never yank or pulled. he liked the kimberwicke for some reason even takes the bit better. she looks tense and she is which carried thru to him but she is not pulling on him. he is back in a loose ring snaffle and thats what he always rides in except these few times. check out her other photos on my webshots and you will see that. she wanted to know about the collecting and that is not my thing. i can get them in frame and working off the hindend. this is why i attached this last photo. his frame is not perfect nor is her arms but he is under himself and pushing off his backend. he is set downhill, he is a quarter horse. he really won't go any further than training level, 1st if shes lucky.

MyReality
Jun. 8, 2007, 11:28 AM
fuller, tempichange said it better than me.

Using dressage as a basis to develop other disciplines is one thing. You have a dressage coach, she teaches you relaxation, forwardness, develop the horse's straightness, responsiveness, engagement, connection with the rider, etc.

Experimenting with dressage on your own, while doing a little bit of this and that, is an entirely different thing.

Dressage makes your horse lighter, make the rider more educated. If you claim to practice dressage, but do things that contradicts the principles of dressage, then your basis is totally not there... it defeats your purpose of dressage as the basis of other training.

twnkltoz
Jun. 8, 2007, 11:50 AM
Fuller, can you bring in or take her to a dressage instructor, even if it's just occasional lessons to get you started? The difficult thing about this discipline is, it's not about the movements--it's about the training and that's not something you can necessarily get from the 'net or books, although you can certainly answer some questions that way.

I don't really know what I'm talking about so maybe someone will correct me, but I don't think he looks uphill at all in that picture. His neck is up, but that's because she's "setting" his head. It looks kind of unnatural and certainly not relaxed.

I'd like to add in the OP's defense, I don't think they're being resistant to advice at all. Some of you jumped on her for using the terms incorrectly and I'm surprised they continue to post at all. They've been pretty accepting of what you've all told them, they're just trying to explain what they're doing and why. They're limited in what they can do and in their understanding of dressage.

hitchinmygetalong
Jun. 8, 2007, 12:03 PM
Re: Photo, post #76

It looks to me that the horse is being asked to turn to the right? His right hind is stepping to the inside. I'm not sure this can be interpreted as "more uphill and under himself".

He carries his head like a horse that has had his head held for him. Very tense. I see no forward impulsion whatsoever in this photo.

Photos are a moment in time. This nice horse may have relaxed the second after this shot was taken and looked completely different. That is why asking for a critique based on a photo is a dangerous proposition.

NOMIOMI1
Jun. 8, 2007, 12:25 PM
Ok so i read most of these posts and I have to say that picking a fight over a 15yr olds riding/training ability is like sooo not mature. Anyway the pics speak for themselves and it has nothing to do with dressage. This horse is not entirely well trained for any discipline. Western, hunter, saddleseat it doesnt matter because I have done them all and as far as I can tell this horse needs riding 101 again. YES he seems to be quiet and good minded and probably can walk trot and lope on command. He is not lifted enough in his back for anything even lower levels anything. My advice pick a discipline and work towards getting him lifted and straight and it will be fine.

ps. ride with more leg - inside and more outside rein

mp
Jun. 8, 2007, 12:35 PM
Ok so i read most of these posts and I have to say that picking a fight over a 15yr olds riding/training ability is like sooo not mature.

Then read them again. The "trainer" and "15 year old" OP are both posting under the same name.

And my BS detector is going off again.

twnkltoz
Jun. 8, 2007, 12:37 PM
So what if they're posting under the same name? The 15yo said she was doing that. You can tell they're different people because of their writing style. In any case, who cares?

NOMIOMI1
Jun. 8, 2007, 12:41 PM
Then read them again. The "trainer" and "15 year old" OP are both posting under the same name.

And my BS detector is going off again.

Oh then by all means go right ahead and attack her then. SHEESh

rileyt
Jun. 8, 2007, 12:49 PM
Fuller, I think its great that you and your student have taken an interest in dressage... but I have to be honest here. I've shown hunters, dressage, jumpers, eventers... all of it.

At training level, the principles really shouldn't be very different from a well-schooled hunter -- and this is something you claim to have expertise in.

Even in hunterland, a horse should be moving over his back, and maintaining a light contact, and stepping under himself.

You have a nice student, but she needs to work on her position.
You have a nice horse, but you need to teach her to ride him CORRECTLY. Even in hunterland, most of these photos aren't correct, and I have to question your ability (even as a hunter coach) when you look at the most recently posted picture and think that its "better". Is he stepping under himself more? maybe... but he's so inverted and tense in his neck that its not an improvement.

As a hunter coach, you should be able to see that. The fact that you can't, well... If you really want to do this girl a favor, maybe the two of you could take some lessons together.

mp
Jun. 8, 2007, 12:57 PM
So what if they're posting under the same name? The 15yo said she was doing that. You can tell they're different people because of their writing style. In any case, who cares?

Makes no difference to me whatsoever. As Brady's Mom pointed out, I'm not paying for the bandwidth.

Carry on ... :)

PS to anyone who continues posting on this thread: Keep asking about that "O ring" snaffle and what kind of mouthpiece it has ... and I bet you won't get a straight answer out of the "trainer" either.

twnkltoz
Jun. 8, 2007, 01:07 PM
I think it's pretty clear that they don't know what they're doing...she's not claiming to be a dressage instructor so I don't know why you're so up in arms about it. Even if they were both posting under their own names, it would be the same amount of bandwidth.

fuller0819
Jun. 8, 2007, 01:42 PM
first he is in a single jointed loose ring snaffle. i would have to look at her bit again when she gets her because its locked in a tack trunk and i can't get to it to see the thickness of the bit at the moment and i can't remember. she is trying to hard in these photos and thats why his postion is tense because she is, she has been showing hunters and very relaxed in it and so is he. how else would he be WINNING??? at small shows and rated shows??? BUT THANKS FOR SAYING WE SUCK :lol: shes trying to hard to get him with frame and he is not relax but she and he are a DAMN good hunter and thats that. i'm tired of being called a liar and i'm done with this thread so you guys can keep talking i'm moving back to hunterland. :lol: and to you guys like i said before that helped without being harsh or cruel and for true critique and answering the question. not just jabbing. oh and for a dressage trainer, where we are at there really aren't any. its all hunters and showjumpers, not much dressage. noone around here likes it, thats why we have probably 3 dressage shows the whole year in this area. also theres a lot of western A WHOLE lot of western. so really we don't have the ability for someone to come in unless they come about 3hours. the bad thing is the trainers that call themselves dressage trainers that are here (mainly only 2 in this area) don't know anymore about training it than i do they just talk big.

SarMoniet
Jun. 8, 2007, 02:02 PM
Can you please post a photo of this horse in all of his prize-winning hunter glory?

I only ask this because locally we have a horse who's previous owner won every hunter class under the sun with him -- the new owner rides him in dressage (started at training level and now shows first level) and again, this horse wins everything under the sun. Basically, a horse who travels in a good "hunter frame" and cleans up at hunter shows should be able to switch to dressage (training/first level) without blinking an eye.

The horse in the photos, moving as he is in those photos, wouldn't place in our local hunter shows. And believe me, we don't have "special" horses here. I just question the OP's claim that he is a winning hunter....

rileyt
Jun. 8, 2007, 02:17 PM
There are shows in this country where an elephant ridden by a rooster could win.

If you think you are doing everything right on the basis of a few blues... well, I don't know what to say.

Take your ego out of the mix, and really try to learn something -- you might succeed.

slc2
Jun. 8, 2007, 02:46 PM
by now, the girl should just about be at Dick's buying a pair of golf clubs...that or hiding under her bed, and screaming when parents try to drag her out...

She has probably developed a very difficult case of 'Dressur cavalla phobia'

someone needs a little extra curricular fun, i think, and some loosening up.

oh, i forgot to tell Original Poster - by the way, the world champion dressage riders regularly don't measure up to the exacting standards of these guys...fyi.

hitchinmygetalong
Jun. 8, 2007, 02:57 PM
Can't find a dressage trainer?

Try contacting this organization (http://www.gdcta.org/Calendar.html).

Or any of these organizations (http://www.usdf.org/Regions/GroupRoster.asp?RegionPass=3).

If you truly want to learn then you will seek out an experienced trainer to work with. If you just want ribbons on your wall, well, carry on. If you are currently showing in an area that is "heavily western" I'm sure you will do fine with suitable tack and a horse that knows the test.

twnkltoz
Jun. 8, 2007, 03:03 PM
by now, the girl should just about be at Dick's buying a pair of golf clubs...that or hiding under her bed, and screaming when parents try to drag her out...

She has probably developed a very difficult case of 'Dressur cavalla phobia'

someone needs a little extra curricular fun, i think, and some loosening up.

oh, i forgot to tell Original Poster - by the way, the world champion dressage riders regularly don't measure up to the exacting standards of these guys...fyi.
Better that than she use the wrong terms. :rolleyes:

hitchinmygetalong
Jun. 8, 2007, 03:10 PM
For those who are pointing fingers, if anyone wants to know when this thread truly turned ugly, please refer to post #51.

If you can find a post prior to that was antagonistic toward the OP or the trainer, I would like to know about it. People were being quite patient and trying to help up to that point, if you ask me.

SarMoniet
Jun. 8, 2007, 03:17 PM
You can tell they're different people because of their writing style.

Did you even bother to compare the "different" writing styles? Because they are exactly the same right down to the punctuation (lack of) and poor spelling & grammar.

NOMIOMI1
Jun. 8, 2007, 03:28 PM
by the way i'm not fuller0819 this is my friends computer. one issue i have is if i don't try to collect him he will look like a giraffe. he wants to look around with his head all in the air. we are trying to get him under himself and sometimes he is other times not so much:) in training level what level of collection is there?? does he not have to have a low nice head that is vertical?? thanks for your help

So above you just said that if you dont collect him he will look like a giraffe and will put his head in the air. Even if you have gotten a ton of ribbons in hunter just know that this right here is the problem back to front. He has to work up into his back more (yes even for hunter or western). He should not have to be babysitted in his headset if you are working him through his back (trust me I found this out the hard way too). Bumping and pulling for a headset will get you only so far now try imagining that you are pushing him from his hocks to come through the bridle and things will change.

twnkltoz
Jun. 8, 2007, 03:52 PM
Did you even bother to compare the "different" writing styles? Because they are exactly the same right down to the punctuation (lack of) and poor spelling & grammar.
Well, whatever. I thought the second poster under the name was better and sounded a little more like a grown-up. Regardless, WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE if this is the same girl claiming to be two different people? How would that help her, and how would that change your answers?

I say this thread started its downturn on page 1...where she was chastised for thinking she was doing dressage movements that she wasn't. She was ignorant and asking for help, not claiming to be the next big thing and charging for her services.

hitchinmygetalong
Jun. 8, 2007, 04:12 PM
Are you referring to this?


I don't know why you bother posting labels on those movements because none of the labels are accurate or true.

What you are doing is not correct by a long shot. And for your instructor/coach to be promoting it as correct is a very bad path to be going down, I suggest you become either a working student for a trainer or get yourself a solid coach.

He needs to be changed to a legal bit, he needs to be ridden at the very basics of the training scale and you need equipment that fits you.

Collection is a relative term, meaning depending on what you're doing and when is when the term and various stages of collection apply. What you are doing (and labeling as) essentially advanced (or upper level) collection and what you are showing is incorrect.

Yes, for training level the horse needs to be on the bit. However you're methood of achieving that is by craming him into a frame and letting him go hollow behind. You are riding severely front to back. The sport isn't about a frame, it's about the hind end and the engagement thereof. I suggest you drop the notion of a headset immediately and start looking to engage the hindquarter.

Well, the truth hurts, I guess.

twnkltoz
Jun. 8, 2007, 04:16 PM
You can be truthful and kind at the same time. You can tell, because several people managed to do so.

Barncat05
Jun. 8, 2007, 05:50 PM
Fuller, why not post a thread about if anyone knows a dressage trainer in your part of Georgia? Im sure there is a good dressage trainer somewhere in your area. do you live in northern or southern georgia? Because there are quite a few top notch dressage trainers in the northern part of the state for sure.I live in no man's land, sc and there are dressage trainers here!:)

fullmoon fever
Jun. 8, 2007, 06:11 PM
Yup it was before email, in fact that would be 1965 and just after CHB rode in the Tokyo Olympics and was training under von Neindorff in Germany. It was during that time she was busy writing one of the books published later called Canadian Entry. I am assuming this is one of the books you read SLC?

You know SLC she hardy had time to belong to any "club" and I am wondering if your "Chrissy" was someone else just using that name.( she hated to be called that so unlikely she would EVER sign up under "Chrissy")

This is hysterical. I doubt even Jimmy had the cajonas to call Christolot "Chrissy". You could ask CBoylen on the Hunter/Jumper forum. :winkgrin:

~Freedom~
Jun. 8, 2007, 06:27 PM
2ND OF ALL SHE IS A LEARNER AS WELL AS MYSELF IN DRESSAGE, I KNOW THE BASICS BUT UPPER LEVEL THERE'S NOWAY I COULD TAKE HER ANYWHERE WITH IT AND SHE KNOWS THIS




I have serious issues with this statement. Since when is w/t/c upper level?

If you know the basics but can't do the three simple gaits, then just what are you referring to as "basic". Is a training level test "upper level" ?

hitchinmygetalong
Jun. 8, 2007, 06:49 PM
Fuller, why not post a thread about if anyone knows a dressage trainer in your part of Georgia? Im sure there is a good dressage trainer somewhere in your area. do you live in northern or southern georgia? Because there are quite a few top notch dressage trainers in the northern part of the state for sure.I live in no man's land, sc and there are dressage trainers here!:)

I did that in post #93

Barncat05
Jun. 8, 2007, 06:57 PM
oops, sorry:)

slc2
Jun. 8, 2007, 07:10 PM
it is not a matter of 'cojones' at all, far from it. i believe most of the letters about her were written by her parents, and that's what they called her, chrissy. she was a young girl at the time and the parents had just built her an indoor arena so she could ride more. she was a young person at the time. i didn't even realize she was the same person til years later. i never 'called' her chrissy, that was how everyone who wrote about her referred to her, in the newsletter. as i said, these letters were in a horse club newsletter for teens. young people sent in drawings and letters to the riders. karl mikolka also wrote things in the newsletter. he was also quite young at the time.

my POINT, people, was that we enjoyed hearing from these people, and they, unlike you guys, encouraged EVERYONE with an interest in dressage. why is that so hard for you people?

this young kid is proud of what she's trying to do - i'm sure you ALL were in the same place as her, and perhaps, not so very long ago.

christilot boylen hansen is one of the best riders ever to come out of north america. because she was climbing that ladder before there was a lot of publicity for american riders alot of people don't even know of her.

however, i hate to rain on your parade with facts, please do carry on. you've got a great pile-on going.

loshad
Jun. 8, 2007, 07:54 PM
Um, no, actually what you say is this:


I was really interested in dressage even as a very young teen. I was actually in a club called the 'Lipizanner Horse Club' which was almost all teenagers, and one of the riders at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna, Austria used to write to us and tell us about how he was learning to ride and what it was like learning dressage there (it was Karl Mikolka). Another person in the club was 'Chrissy Hanson', who was 18 at the time. She is now Christilot Boylen-Hanson and is a famous rider. To give you an idea of how long ago this was...this was before email. and that's all I have to say about how long ago it was.

We didn't have dressage horses but we tried like mad to get our old, shambly school horses to do everything the Lipizanners did. I guess we looked pretty funny to more experienced people, but we were just on fire to learn everything.

which very strongly implies that you and this very very famous rider were in this little dressage club together when, according to your current post, you were really just reading little articles about her in your little club newsletter. Amazing how your stories change when you are confronted with actual, you know, facts. Or when someone calls you out for plagiarism.

slc2
Jun. 8, 2007, 08:05 PM
but that is not at all what i said. these people gave their time to encourage kids. they DID write 'us', Karl Mikolka's column was billed 'Your Correspondent at the Spanish Riding School', and was referred to as all our 'penpal', there were adults in this club as well as teens, and EVERYONE wrote in letters, but the kids tended to send in drawings as well. and i believe everyone involved did so in a spirit of sharing and encouraging new people, which is my point.

don't you get at all what i am saying? these adults gave their time to the kids because they wanted to ENCOURAGE us. the newsletter was created largely so people who loved dressage all over north america could correspond, and it was a LOVELY thing. and the adults did this in large part to encourage new people and guide them in a nice way, and even people like Christilot Boylen Hansen and Karl Mikolka, starting out on fantastic dressage careers, felt a keen desire to ENCOURAGE youngsters. and they WERE friendly to us! in fact they were exceptionally nice. i'm not 'pretending they wwere my personal friend', they treated us like we were all family. that was them! and it wasn't just them. there were other people who may not be famous as these two are today, but they really nutured the kids. which is my point.

that if you're all such bloody experts, your job is to ENCOURAGE children, not to pick on them!

~Freedom~
Jun. 8, 2007, 08:20 PM
christilot boylen hansen is one of the best riders ever to come out of north america. because she was climbing that ladder before there was a lot of publicity for american riders alot of people don't even know of her.

however, i hate to rain on your parade with facts, please do carry on. you've got a great pile-on going.

Firstly you could give her a little respect by at least capitalizing her name.

English 101 Proper nouns have capitals and she should be properly addressed as Christilot Boylen-Hansen. At least show a smattering of respect for her even if you have none for us.

And I hate to rain on YOUR parade with facts..

Just where do you ever get the idea she is American. Obviously you didn't read your penpal letters very clearly, as she is Canadian.

egontoast
Jun. 8, 2007, 08:24 PM
You'll feel so much better if you just admit that the 'Chrissy' in your club was the one from Three's Company.


Another person in the club was 'Chrissy Hanson', who was 18 at the time. She is now Christilot Boylen-Hanson and is a famous rider

Actually , she was already famous then and had gotten special permission to represent Canada at the Tokyo Olympics the year before at the tender age of 17. If you are interested, read her book "Canadian Entry" all about those amazing times.

Nearly 40 years ago we watched films of CHB at our Pony Club meetings. We were not in a club with her though. Good grief that would be a leap.

tempichange
Jun. 8, 2007, 09:30 PM
I think Podhajsky disagreed with you- he felt hunting was a great way to get a dressage horse forward. He felt that it was too dangerous to do with his competition mounts because he had a horse slam a leg into a hole while out galloping. In "the new basic training for the young horse" they recommend doing dressage, jumping, and going cross country, untill the horse shows more talent for one career or another.

Honestly, I think you're reading way to much into my statements, but to each his own. Lets look at the facts: this is not a young horse. It is a green horse that is backwards and will benefit from the training. Focusing it on one discipline with one training scale with an coach that can both give the rider the tools and give the horse the basics isn't a terrible idea. If she wants to move on to different disciplines after that, that's her choice, but at least she'll have the concept of how to ride.

And Podhajsky would be scratching his head at modern hunter classes.

Patch
Jun. 8, 2007, 10:03 PM
Firstly you could give her a little respect by at least capitalizing her name.

English 101 Proper nouns have capitals and she should be properly addressed as Christilot Boylen-Hansen. At least show a smattering of respect for her even if you have none for us.

And I hate to rain on YOUR parade with facts..

Just where do you ever get the idea she is American. Obviously you didn't read your penpal letters very clearly, as she is Canadian.

Well before you jump all over slc, not everyone who is Canandian and/or rides for Canada spends all of their time here. According to her bio on the Dressage Canada website, she was born in Indonesia and now lives in Germany. When she was 10 years old she saved enough money working on the Howdy Doody Show to buy her first horse. Last time I checked Howdy Doody was an American show so it seems she may have spent at least a bit of time south of the border. :)

~Freedom~
Jun. 8, 2007, 10:30 PM
Have you a copy of her American citizenship as well ? Many Canadians are born outside the country, and since she never got American citizenship she cannot be referred to as american.

So Patch argue semantics all you want. She was a Canadian at that time and nothing before or after can change that.

egontoast
Jun. 9, 2007, 05:17 AM
The point is she was never and still is not an 'american rider' as was suggested here.


she was climbing that ladder before there was a lot of publicity for american riders alot of people don't even know of her.

grey_pony
Jun. 10, 2007, 01:32 PM
I thought her name was Christilot Hanson Boylen, not Boylen Hanson.

To the OP, if you can do w/t/c as a hunter rider, that should be adequate for a Training Level test. Get some (lower level) dressage videos and compare what you're doing to what is happening in the videos. Try to find a dressage instructor or a clinic to go to. That way you get a taste of dressage from someone who is experienced with this discipline.

Dalfan
Jun. 10, 2007, 03:34 PM
... but he's so inverted and tense in his neck that its not an improvement.

Have to agree with this. Fuller; that last pic you posted is not the
"frame" you would want to see in a training level horse. He is definitely inverted (swan neck) and underneck muscles are bulging. His neck needs to be let out (longer) & lower (but not breaking at the third vert.). Looks like he is very used to be held in this type of frame. Also agree with the others about the bit. He's leaning/pulling on her because he can (her weakness) and because she is most like likely pulling on him.

slc2
Jun. 11, 2007, 10:54 AM
and my point is this - at 15 or 14 or 13, most of you did not know much dressage.

'frame' is not something ANYONE should be learning about dressage at any time.

what's appropriate to expect here?

well, pretty much what's appropriate to expect of anyone starting a dressage career.

not a whole lot. just one thing, kind of a one-basket thing.

what you look for is enthusiasm and a thirst for knowledge and a willingness to get on with it.

you know....i had a little ole private chat with the instructor. you would have to look VERY long and VERY hard to find anyone more enthusiastic or more interested in teaching this student well. the lady is just a sponge and she is a very, very nice person.

rileyt
Jun. 11, 2007, 11:54 AM
SLC, you seem to waffle between a belief that people need to be told the stone cold truth and yet sometimes we all need to just support people who are trying hard... no matter how incorrect the result.

I really don't think anyone here (well, not most) has tried to attack this woman or her student... but as you have said often enough, if you REALLY want to learn something you need to get past your ego and work at it.

I'm glad the youngster in this picture is a "sponge". But several of us are disturbed that the "trainer" who is embarking on this journey with her student seems more than a little bit unprepared.

No one is trying to beat this woman up -- but I think a healthy dose of reality is necessary here.

And the defensive "I'm not a dressage trainer, I'm just a hunter trainer and I'm damn good at that" mentality is a problem.

At this level, there should be NO DIFFERENCE between how you ride your horse in your hunter hack class, and how you'd ride him in a training level dressage class. The fact that we are seeing a stiff and resistant horse, with a beginner rider, in a kimberwicke because he doesn't "like" the snaffle... well, that speaks volumes to me.

And no, its not that many (any?) of us were superstars at 15 (unlike your good friend Chrissy), but hopefully we had enough knowledge to know this isn't the way to go.

I hope the student opens her eyes wide enough to consider perhaps she needs a different instructor.

slc2
Jun. 11, 2007, 12:10 PM
SLC, you seem to waffle between a belief that people need to be told the stone cold truth and yet sometimes we all need to just support people who are trying hard... no matter how incorrect the result.

-- It may seem that way to you - that's not what I feel, I've never felt the way you describe, and I probably never will. Especially the 'no matter how incorrect the result'.

-- What I do feel is that until a person is about 16 or so (age varies with person so I take a conservative approach), kids need to be treated a little bit more gently than adults. They are different under the law, and they are, in fact, to me, different, and justified to have a different approach to them on the internet and when teaching them. I view them, in a word, as ah...fragile. Handle with care. Be nice.

--No, I don't believe in coddling them, either, but this kid has already heard a dozen times how much she sucks and I think it's about enough already.

I really don't think anyone here (well, not most) has tried to attack this woman or her student... but as you have said often enough, if you REALLY want to learn something you need to get past your ego and work at it.

-- I do say that about ego. I think ego causes people to see things thru a 'veil of illusion' - maya, if you want to call i that, not in the spiritual sense, but in dressage sense.

I'm glad the youngster in this picture is a "sponge". But several of us are disturbed that the "trainer" who is embarking on this journey with her student seems more than a little bit unprepared.

--first of all, there are two separate people in this thread. A woman who's in her mid twenties, I believe, and a teenager.

-- You should try talking to the instructor off the stage then, where everyone is trying so hard to cut her down. She is a hunt seat trainer, and she emailed me and wanted to know in detail EVERYTHING about the dressage position and what to shoot for, and what exercises she can do on the longe - she may not pass YOUR standards for an instructor but I think she's making a great effort.

No one is trying to beat this woman up -- but I think a healthy dose of reality is necessary here.

--- And I'm saying it's been just a wee bit too healthy, even for me. And I am, in fact, entitled to say that I find it just a wee bit too healthy, and not be personally dissed simply because I happen to see it differently than you do.

-- Sure, it would be lovely if every teen in the world who wanted to do dressage could have her mom drive her over to Debbie MacDonald's place, where she'd be given a free schoolmaster and daily lessons. Lovely. And until you're ready to pay for every kid to do that, you can't exactly get tooo high and mighty because not every family can afford that kind of instruction.

And the defensive "I'm not a dressage trainer, I'm just a hunter trainer and I'm damn good at that" mentality is a problem.

--No it isn't, not for me. An enthusiastic person can teach a kid a lot of basics that will get her going on a dressage career, EVEN a dreaded hunt seat person. The foundation, if it's 'balanced seat' and not 'is-my-butt-stuck-out-far-enough' hunt seat is very good and a good start for anyone; if the instructor is aware she can work on the position and longe a kid and give them a GREAT start.

At this level, there should be NO DIFFERENCE between how you ride your horse in your hunter hack class, and how you'd ride him in a training level dressage class.

-- BALONEY. I say that's absolute rot.

-- And even so, I STILL say a conscientious hunt seat instructor can give a kid a good basis for other riding.

The fact that we are seeing a stiff and resistant horse, with a beginner rider, in a kimberwicke because he doesn't "like" the snaffle... well, that speaks volumes to me.

--And it speaks volumes to me too, it's a kid who WANTS TO DO DRESSAGE. that's all that matters to me. it's up to her FAMILY, not to YOU, to decide who instructs her and what resources they can devote to it.

And no, its not that many (any?) of us were superstars at 15 (unlike your good friend Chrissy),

-- can't let go of that, can you.

but hopefully we had enough knowledge to know this isn't the way to go.

-- and i have to ask, exactly how well were you riding 2 yrs after you started?

I hope the student opens her eyes wide enough to consider perhaps she needs a different instructor.

-- As I said, this is the family's call, and not yours.

-- I might say, 'A conscientious hunt seat instructor can give a student a good secure basis...when it's the appropriate time, the instructor can refer the young student to a dressage instructor for more specialized training'.

-- frankly i don't like to see 15 year old kids that are doing only dressage, even if the ARE ready and willing, and the classical approach is far more leaned to letting them gallop, jump, event and do a variety of riding activities for several years yet - they'll be better at dressage later on if they do. I do NOT like what i see when kids specialize too young.

rileyt
Jun. 11, 2007, 02:55 PM
I think you've misunderstood me, and I never said you weren't entitled to your opinion. I really don't take any issue with the girl (yes I know there are two people posting). Its not her fault she doesn't have access to Debbie McDonald for a trainer.

And I agree 100% that a good hunt seat education can be a GREAT start. But that is clearly NOT what this girl is getting.

A hunt seat trainer who does not recognize that an inverted tense horse being pulled into a frame is not a "good" thing is not a good hunt seat trainer.

You said my statement that a good hunter hack class and a good training level dressage test should be ridden the same way is "complete rot". I'm dying to know how you see the differences.

cinder88
Jun. 11, 2007, 03:17 PM
""you know....i had a little ole private chat with the instructor. you would have to look VERY long and VERY hard to find anyone more enthusiastic or more interested in teaching this student well. the lady is just a sponge and she is a very, very nice person.""

"The lady" would be well-advised to be very careful who she "soaks up" information from.

Cinder

hitchinmygetalong
Jun. 11, 2007, 03:21 PM
Why should an enthusiastic 15 year old be treated any differently than an enthusiastic 50 year old? I would give anything for a mentor right now, but I guess I don't deserve one because I'm OLD?

All I can say is that if I had posted photos similar to those, there are some on this board that would rip me a new one.

slc, I don't see where anyone has said "You suck" to the girl, much less see her being told "you suck" a dozen times.

Oh, wait. I get it. You must have been "kidding", right? You forgot to add :D and we missed the sarcasm.

Dalfan
Jun. 11, 2007, 03:37 PM
Much easier to correct her now and show her/point out what she should be striving for instead of 15 years down the road when all the bad habits/bad muscle memory is so ingrained. If she is interested in dressage, then she should find herself a dressage instructor who will concentrate on her balance, position, seat and hands.

hitchinmygetalong
Jun. 11, 2007, 03:59 PM
Dalfan, are you answering this question:


Why should an enthusiastic 15 year old be treated any differently than an enthusiastic 50 year old?

If so, then explain to me please why an enthusiastic 15 year old who has already been riding several years in a discipline other than dressage should be treated any differently than at 50 year old with (for example) little time in the saddle?

Dalfan
Jun. 11, 2007, 04:02 PM
No, I should have been clearer. Was basically agreeing with you. I see nothing wrong with telling her she is on the wrong path/instructor.

I think what would crush her enthusiasm/confidence is to realize 15-20 years down the road, she needs to go back to the basics. Much more humane to correct now, when she is young.

twnkltoz
Jun. 11, 2007, 06:11 PM
Much easier to correct her now and show her/point out what she should be striving for instead of 15 years down the road when all the bad habits/bad muscle memory is so ingrained. If she is interested in dressage, then she should find herself a dressage instructor who will concentrate on her balance, position, seat and hands.
When correcting someone who's obviously new to the sport, why is it necessary to say, "I don't know why you bother posting labels on those movements because none of the labels are accurate or true." Obviously, the OP didn't know that her labels were incorrect. Couldn't we simply have said, "Actually, that's not a shoulder-in (etc), and here's why..." or, "this is what a shoulder-in should look like..." or a number of other things that people said on here in a perfectly civil tone??? If I was paying an instructor for a lesson and she spoke to me the way tempichange and a couple of others spoke to this kid and her instructor, I would have been out of there. Yes, the advice given on here is free, but does that give you license to pile on the beatings when the poor kid is already going to feel like crap when her pics aren't as positively reviewed as she hoped?

slc2 just wanted this poor kid to be gently corrected and encouraged. Why is that a bad thing? What wrong would come of being gentle with someone who obviously didn't know what she was doing wrong? I would hope for that for someone of ANY age.

Dalfan
Jun. 11, 2007, 07:00 PM
I really don't see anything too harsh in my posts. Don't know why you would single them out, oh well.

I do think it is much, much easier to learn the correct way when you are younger. Just look at all the forty-ish women (myself included) that struggle to find their seats/hands/balance/position. Start them young with correct instruction. I have doubts that this instructor can provide that. That's all I'm saying.

I don't remember anybody saying she sucked.

It is hard for beginners to discern what is correct and what is not. That's really the crux of the matter. How do they know? It's a pickle, for sure.

tempichange
Jun. 11, 2007, 07:20 PM
When correcting someone who's obviously new to the sport, why is it necessary to say, "I don't know why you bother posting labels on those movements because none of the labels are accurate or true." Obviously, the OP didn't know that her labels were incorrect. Couldn't we simply have said, "Actually, that's not a shoulder-in (etc), and here's why..." or, "this is what a shoulder-in should look like..." or a number of other things that people said on here in a perfectly civil tone??? If I was paying an instructor for a lesson and she spoke to me the way tempichange and a couple of others spoke to this kid and her instructor, I would have been out of there. Yes, the advice given on here is free, but does that give you license to pile on the beatings when the poor kid is already going to feel like crap when her pics aren't as positively reviewed as she hoped?


She knew enough to use the language, and tried to define her actions by them. It wasn't correct. I called it. Get over it and quit reading into the tone.