H/J stallions proven through performance

[fish]

I noticed (as well as I could--I'd welcome corrections!) that there were only 2 stallions showing among the slew of geldings in the Hunter Divisions at Devon this year: Popeye K in the Regular Conformation Division and Cunningham in the Greens (Confo. and 2nd year). While neither was at his best at Devon, I just checked the HOY standings and was delighted to discover that both are presently ranked #1 in their divisions (Cunningham in the Green Confo's-- he's 4th in the 2nd Years). When's the last time that's ever happened?

Cunningham has just started doing the 4', too. Wouldn't it be a kick if both showed up in some of the same classes at indoors?

[STF]

There are more than those out there getting their preformance points.

[fish]

There are more than those out there getting their preformance points.

Who are they and where are they? I know Be Cool and Westporte have a few, and Shine shows as well, but unfortunately the standings list doesn't show gender, making it hard to find the stallions (or mares or geldings either for that matter). I did my best with the Devon catalogue and found only these 2 in the hunters there-- lots in the jumpers, though.

Are there any other stallions at (or near) the top of their divisions?

Gosh, do I wish we had a database!!

[Portia]

Are you only interested in hunter stallions, or also jumper stallions? If you look at the thread on stallions who are also currently showing, there are several listed, including at GP (Capone, Orlando, Cotopaxi ...) :)

[fish]

Are you only interested in hunter stallions, or also jumper stallions? If you look at the thread on stallions who are also currently showing, there are several listed, including at GP (Capone, Orlando, Cotopaxi ...) :)

Yes-- I'm interested in hunter stallions. As I mention above, there are many stallions showing in the jumpers, also in dressage. Hunter stallions seem comparatively few and far between--perhaps because they have to present and remain mannerly in groups where dressage horses and jumpers always have the arena to themselves? Personally, I am especially interested in the Conformation Hunter divisions because they showcase so many different aspects of a horse: conformation and presence in the model, manners and movement in the hack, in addition to form over fences. This makes me particularly glad to see horses excelling in these divisions who are still capable of reproduction!

[fivesocks]

Fish, just thought I'd mention...

Yes, there are lots of stallions at dressage shows. Although they are alone in the show ring, they usually warm up in the crowded schooling areas with everyone else, and are generally just as mannerly and focused as the next horse.

[risingstarfarm]

The same goes for jumper stallions having to share the warmup.

[fish]

The same goes for jumper stallions having to share the warmup.

Yes, of course. I'm well aware of that. Sharing warm ups, etc., is, however, hardly the same thing has having to perform prescribed movements in a group while being judged on conformation and movement as well as manners and accummulating a record on such presentations. The level of concentration, obedience, relaxation, regularity, etc. required to pin well in the hacks is, I think, of rather a different order than what is necessary in warm-up arenas. More to the point for me, however, is the opportunity the Conformation Hunter Divisions provide for horses to acquire RECORDS on such aspects of their quality as studs so we don't have to follow them around to countless schooling areas to get any kind of evaluation of how they behave in groups-- or visit their barns to ask to walk around them for evaluation of conformation.

It is, of course, entirely relevant that I am truly a hunter fan, too: I love the relaxed style of movement prized in the hunter ring, and while I also love and compete at dressage, it is important to me to have a horse capable of remaining attentive and performing well on little or no contact so I can compete in the hunters, too. I also dislike the extravagant knee action which characterizes many jumpers and has become fashionable in the dressage arena, much preferring horses who combine suspension with a flatter knee which enables them to be competitive pretty much anywhere-- looking at the horses' records in the hunter hacks certainly helps me avoid those knees. Knowing a stallion has functioned acceptablity (or even won) at dressage or jumper shows does not tell me this.

I guess the bottom line is that while it is true that many (if not most) of today's top hunters presently come from horses who've specialized elsewhere (i.e., dressage, jumping, racing), the emergence of stallions capable of excelling in the hunters themselves does (at least for me) offer the hope of reducing the breeding risks a bit more still. I.e., just as the Europeans greatly improved their odds of producing excellent jumpers and dressage horses by tracking and selectively breeding the ones they found best at those disciplines, I'm extremely excited by the prospect of being able to use highly successful hunters to produce more of the same. I don't think I'm alone here either-- believing that similar sentiments account for the tremendous excitement surrounding Popeye K, not to mention the size of his book.

There have been a lot of complaints on this board about hunter people not caring about bloodlines and pedigrees. What I'm trying to suggest is that I think they can and will care about bloodlines if and when those lines have demonstrated the kind of performance they're looking for-- which is hunter performance, not dressage, jumpers or (as Tri keeps pointing out) trotting around on a triangle. I'm very excited to see Cunningham coming along, building a record comparable to Popeye's, and hopefully generating still more excitement about the idea of breeding great hunters instead of just hoping to find them. It's hard, I think, to generate such excitement when the great performers all seem to be geldings???

[PineTreeFarm]

I'm right with you Fish.
It will be interesting to see how offspring of past Hunter 'Superstars' such as Sir Caletto and Saint Nick stack up when they start showing in rated performance divisions.
It would be nice if these stallions are able to pass along their talent for their specialty.

[Quinn]

Cabardino.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[Leland]

thank you Fish. I am continuing to collect information and of course these stallions are on my spread sheet. I am most interested in how their offspring do if I can track them?? With all the name changes, it seems daunting.

I like the conformation hunters too but from hanging around at shows for years, there is a bias that the conformation divisions do not have the BEST athletes and if the hunters all showed in one division, by year, the conf hunters would not do nearly as well as their "non conformation" brothers (and sisters).

Not like the days of Gene Cunningham and his horses, I suspect.

OH, and in doing my research, I have breeding magazines from the 60's- 80's. So interesting. And then there is the latest COTH with a picture of Stocking Stuffer in the Hunter Classic, showing over a 4'6 - 4'9" fence. That was the height in the second round. Have we "dumbed down" our hunters?

I will include the jumper stallions.

[Portia]

Of course, one of the problems with getting stallions into the hunter ring is that juniors can't show them, and a big chunk of the hunter buyer market is to serve juniors. It's happened more than once that a stallion is sold to a junior and gets gelded so the kid can show him. And goodness knows that problem is magnified ten-fold for pony stallions!

[Portia]

I don't think All the Gold is still showing, but he was very successful in the working hunters, as I understand it.

[fish]

Cabardino.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

In what division(s) is he showing?

I checked the Green Confos. and see 4 I recognize as stallions: Cunningham, Westporte, Vallado and Be Cool. Would love to know of others-- and wonder whether anyone has approached the USEF about including gender on their lists.

I definitely share the concern voiced regarding promising hunter stallions being gelded so they can serve as Jr. mounts. I believe that's what happened to Rivano, LeCavalier and countless others. To me this is another reason why it is important for people to be supportive of those who continue to make the considerable investments involved in campaigning their hunter stallions despite pressures on them to do otherwise.

Regarding the Conf. vs. Reg. divisions: it would be nice to see stallions emerge who can do well in both just as many geldings have (Mandarin and Quality Time immediately come to mind of those presently showing). Right now Cunningham is 4th in the 2nd Year Greens as well as 1st in the Green Confos., with his jump only improving with the height of the fences, so I think there's good reason to hope that he'll be able to prove himself in the Regulars all around, too.

Meantime if the accumulating data indicates that conformation and/or breed show horses turn out not to perform as well as their supposedly less "correct" and beautiful brethren, perhaps a re-examination of how we go about evaluating conformation is in order???

[sixpoundfarm]

Carbadino was in the Regular Working division.

http://www.charlotfarm.com/pour%20gagne.htm

[can't re-]

Quinn, that's who I was going to mention.

Popeye's babies should be out there, the oldest ones are now 6 year olds.

The sad thing is that the 4' Confo division is not what it used to be. At WEF the division averaged about 5 horses. It's a shame, but not only aren't there many stallions, there often aren't many horses in that division. It is like Leland said - there is a bias that the conformation divisions do not have the BEST athletes and if the hunters all showed in one division, by year, the conf hunters would not do nearly as well as their "non conformation" brothers (and sisters).


I know at HITS - Ocala this year I saw at least a 1/2 dozen stallions in the main hunter ring that I never heard of. So while everyone knows the big names, and the stallions that are heavily promoted, there are more stallions out there competing in the hunters than one might expect.

It was a shame that Mynos was gelded.

[2Dogs]

Mynos gelded because sold to a junior?

[sixpoundfarm]

I believe the Belgian born stallion Bonfeuer V. Koekshof is showing in the green conformation division as well.

[can't re-]

Yes, Mynos was gelded for a junior. I called about breeding to him the day he was gelded....:( I think that was two years ago.

This is a neat website-

http://www.zuchthof-hampe.de/zucherfolge/e-mynos.html

I know when Jupi was for sale a lot of buyers wanted him but only if they could geld him. I was so glad that Lindsay did not sell him to someone who would geld him.

[spacely]

Rivano was sold to am amateur. I believe he may have been gelded but maybe Oakleigh will fill us in.

Nairobi was recently gelded as well. Shine & Jupiter have both proven themselves in the ring.

[PineTreeFarm]

Carbadino was in the Regular Working division.

http://www.charlotfarm.com/pour%20gagne.htm

He is listed in the WEF results as:
CABERDINO ERYNN BALLARD AUGUSTIN WALSH

Assuming it's the same horse, I don't see it listed in USEF Working Hunter standings with either spelling.

Assuming this is a Canadian based horse, perhaps he doesn't need to be USEF recorded to show here. The USEF competition results for WEF list an entry of 'INTERNATIONAL HORSE', 'INTERNATIONAL OWNER'.

Too bad, no verifiable show record in the US.

[spacely]

PTF, I bet there are those that will argue that you can't verify Cabardino's show record here in the US.;) He is a Canadain based stallion & I'm sure is recorded with their federation. It is the same horse you listed above.:yes:

[risingstarfarm]

I believe the Belgian born stallion Bonfeuer V. Koekshof is showing in the green conformation division as well.

Yes, Bonfeuer is showing quite a bit in the green conformation division. He is a lovely stallion!

[spacely]

Yes, Bonfeuer is showing quite a bit in the green conformation division. He is a lovely stallion!

Is there a website or pics of him anywhere?

[Portia]

Bonfeuer is in the BWP stallion directory. There is a .pdf version posted on the website.

http://www.belgianwarmblood.com/assets/docs_news/BelgianWarmblood%20Book%202007%20final.pdf

Also, according to the directory, Balta'Czar showed successfully in the first year green and conformation hunters in 2005, swtiched to the jumpers in 2006, but is going back to the working hunters this year.

[PineTreeFarm]

PTF, I bet there are those that will argue that you can't verify Cabardino's show record here in the US.;) He is a Canadain based stallion & I'm sure is recorded with their federation. It is the same horse you listed above.:yes:

Spacely
USEF's new horse results feature is probably going to get used a lot as it's an easy way to verifiy claims made by a breeder or appearing on a website. In Cabardino's case USEF has no records on him and the Canadian Fed has him recorded but no results for WEF for this show year. WEF has results for him but with the wrong name. So kind of hard to track for those that want to keep up to date with stallion performance records.
Maybe Quinn or Fred knows if it is common practice to not record Canadian horses with USEF if they show at USEF rated shows.

sixpoundfarmI believe the Belgian born stallion Bonfeuer V. Koekshof is showing in the green conformation division as well.

I had no idea that this horse was a stallion. He is 29th in the country.

PortiaBonfeuer is in the BWP stallion directory. There is a .pdf version posted on the website.

http://www.belgianwarmblood.com/asse...07%20final.pdf (http://www.belgianwarmblood.com/assets/docs_news/BelgianWarmblood%20Book%202007%20final.pdf)

Also, according to the directory, Balta'Czar showed successfully in the first year green and conformation hunters in 2005, swtiched to the jumpers in 2006, but is going back to the working hunters this year.


No USEF record for Balta Czar in 2006, 2007.
There is a record for 2005, 4 shows. 1 had less than 3 entries.

[sixpoundfarm]

sixpoundfarmI believe the Belgian born stallion Bonfeuer V. Koekshof is showing in the green conformation division as well.

I had no idea that this horse was a stallion. He is 29th in the country.



That is why I posted about him, because the OP asked about other stallinos that are showing in the hunter divisions. :)

[2Dogs]

looking at the BWP website made me wonder: Where is Red Panda?

(I digress....)

[Hi Jump]

Our Canadian based horses were showing in the US with FEI passports through Equine Canada, we do not require USEF numbers to show in the United States.
Cotopaxi is competing in the jumpers at Spruce Meadows this month. Raffaello, who was doing hunters, has prioritized serving his breeding schedule at present, while his rider had a baby boy last week. In the meantime he has been schooling regularly with a dressage coach. Don't be too surprised if he is asked to display his versatility to show up in the dressage ring periodically again after breeding season.

Synergy Sport Horses
http://www.synergysporthorses.net

[Fred]

A Fine Romance is not showing now, but he was a very consistent winner in the Combined Working Hunters in Canada. He combined a regular show schedule with a busy breeding schedule as well - often on the same day. To the best of my knowledge he was the only stallion showing in his division.
He did not show in the US and does not have a USEF #.

[Silly Mommy]

I plan to get Yak approved (licensed) via performance eventually. Right now, he is doing Level3/moving up to Level4 Jumpers, but has, can, and will swap back and forth with the hunter ring. I don't campaign like some of the others, and realize it may take awhile. My main objective is to have fun with my boy (BTW - Yak = Mandate).

[ParadiseFarm]

Cabardino was Regular Working Hunter Champion the week of Valentine's Day. He was even 2nd in the Hack. It was a decent division - I think 9 or 10 total.
The Regular Conformation Hunter Division had only 4 or 5 competitors that same week. Popeye K was Champion of that Division.

[fish]

I am loving having those lists on the USEF-- especially the feature whereby you CAN click on the horse's name check to see where points were acquired and against how many entries. Now if they would only (1) include the horses' gender, and (2) make sure ALL horses competing (including those from across the boarder) had USEF ID numbers and were duly tracked by the database.

Meanwhile, thank you to Tracy and others for the info. on the other stallions competing in the hunter divisions. It's stuff like this that makes an old fogey like me willing to welcome technology.

[2Dogs]

Paradise Farm:
Upperville: 12 in Regular Working, 4 in Regular Conformation. So different than 25 years ago.

and sure is fun watching the live video feed!!!

[Portia]

One thing on the USEF horse results, it looks to me like the only things that show up when you search for a particular horse's record are if the horse placed in a recognized class/division, not whether the horse showed in that class/division and did not place or if the horse showed and placed in a non-recognized class/division. So a horse could have been in a class of 30 in AO jumpers and had a great clean but not fast round and that's won't be indicated in its results.

Is that correct?

[fish]

One thing on the USEF horse results, it looks to me like the only things that show up when you search for a particular horse's record are if the horse placed in a recognized class/division, not whether the horse showed in that class/division and did not place or if the horse showed and placed in a non-recognized class/division. So a horse could have been in a class of 30 in AO jumpers and had a great clean but not fast round and that's won't be indicated in its results.

Is that correct?

Partially correct: the results do not include unrecognized divisions, nor do they indicate "clean" performances that do not place. They do, however, include appearances which garnered 0 points, including the number of entries in such classes. Indeed, entries which gained no points are boldly indicated in red or green. I think it is useful to look carefully at the details in such records as a series of 1sts in classes with 15+ entries does seem more indicative of quality that the same number of 1sts taken in classes of 6 or less.

[2Dogs]

HBJ - I sure tried to find Nob Hill on the Acorn Hill Site and he wasn't there.

[2Dogs]

Oh, and HBJ - does that stallion who can't jump have a pretty color and bling? Maybe he's for the other track of breeders/buyers?

[hackinaround]

I would love to know more about Nob Hill ??
Pictures, Pedigree , website??

[fish]

Gosh, I have been waiting for this subject to come up!!!!!!! I to am an avid hunter lover. Fish, You may not know this stallion but you would love him. His name is Nob Hill and Dianan Dodge owns him. He stands at Acorn Hill Farm in VA. When he was young he was unbeatable as a HB horse and he went on to be Conformation champ at WEF and qualified for Devon so on and so forth. Diana has never really pushed his breeding but Wheeler was just Best Young Horse at Devon with one of them and I have a three year old that is undefeated on the line and best young at all the Fl shows I have done this year. I also have an All The Gold, another hunter performance freak. I really think we have let the hunters dull down and I think we should demand more out of what we are willing to breed.

The most shocking to me is the new stallion close to me that everyone is breeding to but you can't find him on any USEF list because he won't even go around a 2'6" course. What are mare owners thinking? I think hunter stallions should have to be successful in the ring before ANYONE should breed to them.

Ironically enough, I believe I showed a filly on the line against Nob Hill back when he was a (HUGE!) yearling. I did not know that he had gone on to show well in the performance divisions as well. I think our NGB has let us all down by failing to establish any means by which we can track which horses/bloodlines have and have not acquired show records.

Meantime, I've been breeding my mare to Cunningham and been pretty happy with the manner in which he's been proving himself :)

[fish]

Gosh, I have been waiting for this subject to come up!!!!!!! I to am an avid hunter lover. Fish, You may not know this stallion but you would love him. His name is Nob Hill and Dianan Dodge owns him. He stands at Acorn Hill Farm in VA. When he was young he was unbeatable as a HB horse and he went on to be Conformation champ at WEF and qualified for Devon so on and so forth. Diana has never really pushed his breeding but Wheeler was just Best Young Horse at Devon with one of them and I have a three year old that is undefeated on the line and best young at all the Fl shows I have done this year. I also have an All The Gold, another hunter performance freak. I really think we have let the hunters dull down and I think we should demand more out of what we are willing to breed.

The most shocking to me is the new stallion close to me that everyone is breeding to but you can't find him on any USEF list because he won't even go around a 2'6" course. What are mare owners thinking? I think hunter stallions should have to be successful in the ring before ANYONE should breed to them.

Ironically enough, I believe I showed a filly on the line against Nob Hill back when he was an "unbeatable" (and HUGE!) yearling. I did not know that he had gone on to show well in the performance divisions as wel, but am delighted for Diana. I don't know anyone who's demonstrated more or longer term dedication to breeding and campaigning fine horses than she. I think our NGB has let us all down by failing to establish any means by which people can determine which horses/bloodlines/breeders have and have not acquired show records after the breed shows, IHF, etc.

Meanwhile, I've been breeding my mare to Cunningham and been pretty happy with the manner in which he's been proving himself :)

[PineTreeFarm]

One thing on the USEF horse results, it looks to me like the only things that show up when you search for a particular horse's record are if the horse placed in a recognized class/division, not whether the horse showed in that class/division and did not place or if the horse showed and placed in a non-recognized class/division. So a horse could have been in a class of 30 in AO jumpers and had a great clean but not fast round and that's won't be indicated in its results.

Is that correct?

The new Horse Results Search has a much different format.
All results, placed or unplaced are displayed as well as number of entries in each class, points at zone and national level (bad and good). Not sure if non recognized divisions show up in the new search.

[clearound]

Personally, I do not pay attention to standing or HOTY awards. People could be point chasing or the division could have 3 or 4 horses. I would rather see the horse in person either at a show or at the farm so that I could see disposition as well as performance, speak with people I trust who have seen the horse in person and also see a video

[monami]

I think a key point that no one has mentioned is that no matter how well a stallion does in the ring it does not necisarrily mean that his offspring will do the same.

[spacely]

I think a key point that no one has mentioned is that no matter how well a stallion does in the ring it does not necisarrily mean that his offspring will do the same.

:yes::yes::yes::yes:

I agree completely.

[fish]

I think a key point that no one has mentioned is that no matter how well a stallion does in the ring it does not necisarrily mean that his offspring will do the same.

Anyone who's bred a horse knows full well that nothing "necessarily" means anything when it comes to breeding: even if a stallion boasts a phenomenal pedigree and scads of successful offspring, there's no guaranteeing that any particular one of his foals (e.g. yours) will be successful. All any data we collect on a stallion, from viewing him personally to checking his (and his family's) performance records, etc., is to improve our odds/reduce our risks. If others want to ignore some or all of that data, that's certainly their perogative. It does seem to me, however, that HOY awards in the family rightfully enhance the value of a foal.

As for the "point-chasing," etc., one of the things I do like about the USEF lists is that it allows anyone to see how and where the points were acquired. If a horse has accumulated a lot of points by going to the hinterlands and placing 2nd or 3rd in classes of 3, that's one thing. A horse who's repeatedly won classes of 15+ at the most competitive shows in the country is certainly another.

[krfarms]

Claim to Fame was shown by his Amateur owner until recently. Chaelon was shown last year some--breeding now, might look for him later showing in California.

[spacely]

I will say that Chaleon, IMO, is really out-producing hiumself. He is certainly putting some impressive babies on the ground!

[Silver Bells]

I will say that Chaleon, IMO, is really out-producing hiumself. He is certainly putting some impressive babies on the ground!

I agree.... and let's not forget Westporte & Escapade. :)

[spacely]

I agree.... and let's not forget Westporte. :)

How could I?:winkgrin::cool:

[2Dogs]

Wait - whoa - feeding frenzy.

Until the babies of the stallions being touted above have been in the performance show ring, I don't think any one knows how the babies have done or will do. Remember - best to best. So take a good performing mare and breed to a good performing stallion ( based on either their own performance or the performance of their offspring) and you have gotten there.

We don't know yet how the above stallions will do in "out-producing" themselves. This is just what happens without good data. We don't have a clue that they have "out-produced" themselves. I can't wait to see their offspring in the hunter ring, but until then, we don't know.

I cheer these stallions and their babies on, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. I look forward to watching - say at Upperville on the feed and seeing these offspring there. In the ring. Over fences. And maybe we will have an "bred in the USA" when that happens~!

[La Gringa]

Although he has just started showing, Albarez has been doing the hunters in Texas and has been pretty successful so far. It will be interesting to see how he does as they bring him along.

I love this stallion. He has wonderful bloodlines, the look, and the jump to do it. I bet in a few years (he's only 7 this year) he will be up there with the top performance WB stallions.

I sure like the filly I got by him! She's very fancy.

Also, Tish Quirk's horse Best of Luck and his son Just the Best both showed in hunters and were successful.

[2Dogs]

LG - you have a gorgeous filly! That is a stallion to watch - many of our best hunters have a lot of Holsteiner influence, given how well they jump!

[PineTreeFarm]

Although he has just started showing, Albarez has been doing the hunters in Texas and has been pretty successful so far. It will be interesting to see how he does as they bring him along.

hmmm.. USEF does have a record for Albarez but according to their records he only showed twice this year in AA Hunters, his points are NG because he wasn't recorded. The one I found did show in Texas so probably the same horse.

31 2007 PIN OAK CHARITY
(Owner: GUY HODGSON) Start Date: 3/27/2007 State: TX Zone: 7
Division: ADULT AMATEUR HUNTER 35+ YEARS Rating: C
Class # Entries Placing Nat Pnt Good Nat Pnt Bad ZRD Pnt Good ZRD Pnt Bad
114 10 6 0.00 0.00 0.00 3.00
HORSE NOT RECORDED BY 1ST DAY OF COMPETITION (GR902.2)
115 10 3 0.00 0.00 0.00 10.00
HORSE NOT RECORDED BY 1ST DAY OF COMPETITION (GR902.2)
116 11 7 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
HORSE NOT RECORDED BY 1ST DAY OF COMPETITION (GR902.2)
117 11 10 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
HORSE NOT RECORDED BY 1ST DAY OF COMPETITION (GR902.2)
TOTALS: 0 0 0 13

Division: HUNTERRating: NClass # Entries Placing Nat Pnt Good Nat Pnt Bad ZRD Pnt Good ZRD Pnt Bad
161 27 4 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
HORSE NOT RECORDED BY 1ST DAY OF COMPETITION (GR902.2)
TOTALS: 0 0 0 0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
317746 2007 SPRING GATHERING 2007
(Owner: GUY HODGSON) Start Date: 4/3/2007 State: TX Zone: 7
Division: ADULT AMATEUR HUNTER 35+ YEARS Rating: C
Class # Entries Placing Nat Pnt Good Nat Pnt Bad ZRD Pnt Good ZRD Pnt Bad
100 7 6 0.00 0.00 0.00 2.00
HORSE NOT RECORDED BY 1ST DAY OF COMPETITION (GR902.2)
97 7 3 0.00 0.00 0.00 5.00
HORSE NOT RECORDED BY 1ST DAY OF COMPETITION (GR902.2)
98 7 5 0.00 0.00 0.00 3.00
HORSE NOT RECORDED BY 1ST DAY OF COMPETITION (GR902.2)
99 7 3 0.00 0.00 0.00 5.00
HORSE NOT RECORDED BY 1ST DAY OF COMPETITION (GR902.2)
TOTALS: 0 0 0 15

Division: HUNTERRating: NClass # Entries Placing Nat Pnt Good Nat Pnt Bad ZRD Pnt Good ZRD Pnt Bad
164 12 0 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
HORSE NOT RECORDED BY 1ST DAY OF COMPETITION (GR902.2)

[La Gringa]

Yes, as I said they have just started showing him. He's only been in the country a little over a year now. I think he is one to watch for the future. I think they are taking it slow with him. They have another stallion as well they are showing in the jumper ring.

[TQ]

It would be easy to get into a long discussion here but it is breeding and foalng season so long discussions don't fit in the schedule. Rejoice that this fact will make me be brief.

Best Of Luck was extremely successful in the show ring. He produced champions at Devon, The Garden, Washington etc. and also Circuit Champions at Palm Beach and Indio.

Just The Best was champion in the 4' Working and Reserve Champion in the Conformation divisions before he got too busy in the breeding shed to have time to show. Now he stays home to always be available to breeders who have mares booked to him. He stays in work and could show tomorrow if he did not have breedings scheduled. His offspring are consistent champions in the Hunter Breeding and are champions in the divisions that their owners choose for them. Many acknowledge that their Just The Best offspring could easily do the 4' divisions but the owners choose to stay in the lower divisions because that is the level they prefer to ride.

More Than Luck has been champion in the 4' Working Hunters and the 4' Conformation. He has won significantly in the jumpers and shown successfully in the International Jumpers. His foals are young and have not shown yet.

This is a consistently proven bloodline. They win on the line, under saddle and over fences. They do not appear high on the USEF standings in the performance divisions because of the divisions the owners choose for their horses. Just The Best is currently the Leading Hunter Breeding Sire in the nation. These horses win where ever their owners take them.

Bet this post lasts about 5 minutes. It will be taken down as a brag. It is not a brag. It is a fact.

[fish]

TQ--- I don't see why your post should be taken down: it simply answers an inquiry.

I just wish we had a database so stallions like yours could prove themselves and go home to breed without having their official show records become inaccessible.

I recently did a little research (contacted Warioto), and discovered that the great hunter, The Wizard, came from the same line as your stallions. You do, indeed, have a consistently proven line.

[La Gringa]

It would be easy to get into a long discussion here but it is breeding and foalng season so long discussions don't fit in the schedule. Rejoice that this fact will make me be brief.

Best Of Luck was extremely successful in the show ring. He produced champions at Devon, The Garden, Washington etc. and also Circuit Champions at Palm Beach and Indio.

Just The Best was champion in the 4' Working and Reserve Champion in the Conformation divisions before he got too busy in the breeding shed to have time to show. Now he stays home to always be available to breeders who have mares booked to him. He stays in work and could show tomorrow if he did not have breedings scheduled. His offspring are consistent champions in the Hunter Breeding and are champions in the divisions that their owners choose for them. Many acknowledge that their Just The Best offspring could easily do the 4' divisions but the owners choose to stay in the lower divisions because that is the level they prefer to ride.

More Than Luck has been champion in the 4' Working Hunters and the 4' Conformation. He has won significantly in the jumpers and shown successfully in the International Jumpers. His foals are young and have not shown yet.

This is a consistently proven bloodline. They win on the line, under saddle and over fences. They do not appear high on the USEF standings in the performance divisions because of the divisions the owners choose for their horses. Just The Best is currently the Leading Hunter Breeding Sire in the nation. These horses win where ever their owners take them.

Bet this post lasts about 5 minutes. It will be taken down as a brag. It is not a brag. It is a fact.

Also Best of Luck was one of the FIRST successful WB hunter stallions in the US. I remember when he was showing with you and Hap, he was gorgeous, and his son is gorgeous too. No bling needed there, he was just awesome. Elegant and refined, with a great temperment and jump. What more could you want?

I remember many other successful Best of Luck offspring showing in the late 80's and 90's. Many were very successful, and to have produced such a nice stallion in Just the Best, says a lot too.

We need more breeders like TQ in the world. She has done her homework and has been a great asset to hunter WB breeding in the US. (She found me the best horse I have ever owned in my life as well, I'm a fan, can you tell?). :yes:

[fish]

Also Best of Luck was one of the FIRST successful WB hunter stallions in the US. I remember when he was showing with you and Hap, he was gorgeous, and his son is gorgeous too. No bling needed there, he was just awesome. Elegant and refined, with a great temperment and jump. What more could you want?

I remember many other successful Best of Luck offspring showing in the late 80's and 90's. Many were very successful, and to have produced such a nice stallion in Just the Best, says a lot too.

We need more breeders like TQ in the world. She has done her homework and has been a great asset to hunter WB breeding in the US. (She found me the best horse I have ever owned in my life as well, I'm a fan, can you tell?). :yes:

I think we also need more ways for breeders like TQ, to receive the recognition and rewards they deserve. There are, IMO, many others who've also "done their homework," gone to tremendous lengths to find and prove their horses and produce generation after generation of fine animals. (Joni at Warioto, Diana Dodge, Phyllis Jones and numerous others immediately come to mind-- all of whom seem to go quietly about their work decade after decade with only very sporadic recognition (e.g. an occasional BYH. IHF, or HOY award.) I hope that despite our deplorable lack of a database, our BB'er, Leland, can and will gather the information she needs to give us a history of H/J breeding in the U.S. comparable to the many out there on TB racehorses, and European WB's. The important work breeders like Tish have done deserves and needs to be documented, if not for them, for those who follow and have so much to learn from what they have done.

Cunningham's owner recently showed me a beautiful German book which just came out on the progeny of Cottage Son xx. Ironically enough, this German book includes color photos and stories of horses (e.g. Cunningham) who are active HERE in the U.S. and never campaigned or stood in Europe at all. It makes me wonder if the Europeans have also followed and published Tish's accomplishments, the progeny of Lucky Boy xx, etc., here in the U.S. while we can't even gather data in a place like this without people being worried about being charged with "a brag." It certainly seems to me that it's high time we did a great deal more to recognize, document and educate ourselves on the achievements of our own stock and our own breeders, not to mention learning as much as we can from overachievers like Tish.

Of course, what we need most of all is a reliable database so we can distinguish between solid achievement and "brags" based on relatively little in the way of actual accomplshment. (E.g I knew of one stallion owner who advertised a high score on and FEI dressage test while failing to mention that it was obtained at a small schooling show.)

[2Dogs]

well here are some results with two nice stallions doing battle (:) ):

http://horseshowtime.com/showshowresults.asp?Show=1552

go Cunningham! go Westporte!



And HBjunkie, right on! I rode horses from Waverly in the 60's and did outside courses with gigantumundo fences - talk about teeth! Amazing I have any.
And imagine my horror when I was told I needed to learn to count strides!

And all my corinthian gear -

sigh, the good old days!
But thanks, whoever posted, for the contact info for Nob Hill.

[fish]

well here are some results with two nice stallions doing battle (:) ):

http://horseshowtime.com/showshowresults.asp?Show=1552

go Cunningham! go Westporte!



And HBjunkie, right on! I rode horses from Waverly in the 60's and did outside courses with gigantumundo fences - talk about teeth! Amazing I have any.
And imagine my horror when I was told I needed to learn to count strides!

And all my corinthian gear -

sigh, the good old days!
But thanks, whoever posted, for the contact info for Nob Hill.

WOW-- thanks so much for that link, 2 Dogs!! Did I read these results right??: Looks as though Cunningham has surely recovered from the bumped ankle that had him out of the ribbons in the model at Devon. Now he's not only back to winning the models-- but won a couple hacks, too-- even one against Westporte, who's a wonderful mover--AND he's (so far) sweeping the 4' division in his 2nd attempt at the Reg. Confos., too??!!??? IMO, it's downright amazing what that horse has accomplished this year.

Guess you were right about it being a good idea to let John Bragg show him for a while!! What a super job he's done. Here's hoping we''ll be able to see these 2 fine stallions-- and others, too-- "doing battle" this fall at indoors!

[CBoylen]

looking at the BWP website made me wonder: Where is Red Panda?

(I digress....)
He does the adults.

[2Dogs]

thanks Chandra, last I saw him Marianne Wiesberg-Perry had him - I gathered he was a bit of a tough ride.

[2Dogs]

And I want to promote a stallion I saw at Thermal - who finally has his own website and is ridden and owned by an amateur, Gail Morey. He is a dreamboat, and a fabulous amateur horse. He was just second in the A/O stake at the Oaks, against the best!
Crown Affair:
http://www.gailmorey.com/

[smilennod]

hmm...i must have missed something in horseshow 101 b/c last time i checked winning the Low Hunter @ WEF with 19 entries and winning in the baby greens in 06 would most likely mandate "jumping around a 2'6 course"...or perhaps he just trotted in and picked up the blue with all that bling??? :) LOL
in any case... i just kind of like that flashy trail horse - i know they dont show him much and god forbid he fart wrong because you would have it posted on the website in 8 seconds :) but he moves great, jumps great, has a STELLAR brain, and has some bling to boot - perhaps we should give him a little time -
and as for all those CRAZY folks breeding to him - ive heard through the grapevine that his babies are winning a ton on the line...should be fun to see them hit the rated divisions in the next few years

[Leland]

I posted this on another thread but here is what I have gathered so far, looking backward - I figured I would never get my paper written going forward.
- still working on my horse project - this thread reminded me that I hadn't updated anyone.

Decided going forward was going to take me too long a time. I had to think how to isolate the hunter-type stallions.

I thought I would use the IHF (and for the person asking if they can make a living, I do think it connects a bit to the question):
I am also interested in the role of TBs, so that's why I broke out the %s.
1999: 227 registered foals, 42% from pure TB sires
2000: 225 registered foals, 45 % from TB sires
2001: 191 registered foals, 42% from TB sires
2002: 164 registered foals, 37% from TB sires
2003: 194 registered foals, 29% from TB sires

I then added up by hand the numbers from a few sires I hear you all talk about. Took the larger numbers:

Alla 'Czar = 61 foals since 2000
All the Gold = 88 foals since 1999
Zarr = 30 since 2000

and there are the TBs:
Jasprin, Castle Cove, Absolut, and a few others all had a number. Absolut the most. Some of the years the sheets are not sorted by stallion.

so I guess if you do have a name, some stallion owners can do okay without showing a great deal. I don't know show records of Alla 'Czar, Jasprin, Zarr or Castle Cove.

Now to try to find out how all these babies have done. I stopped at 2003 so there would be at least 4 + year olds.

The IHF site was the only one I could find recording babies by stallion by year - for the hunter types that is. And I am sure some nice stallions are not on this site. I just had to start somewhere.

I will still try to go forward too!

I don't know about the going 2'6" if some of these popular stallions haven't jumped much at all. I have been searching the new USEF site for top hunters and as they list from 2005 forward I thought I'd see a lot of the above stallions. I see some. I was going to do percentages of performers to babies but don't know how to get there. Is there no connection? Is my project silly - I need to talk to my advisor soon so maybe I should pick a different direction? Would I be able to find out about mares? Is the idea of Performance hunter stallion wrong? Some of the TB stallions - would they be used for eventers?

thanks everyone

[PineTreeFarm]

[quote=Leland;
I have been searching the new USEF site for top hunters and as they list from 2005 forward I thought I'd see a lot of the above stallions. I see some. I was going to do percentages of performers to babies but don't know how to get there. Is there no connection? Is my project silly - I need to talk to my advisor soon so maybe I should pick a different direction? Would I be able to find out about mares? Is the idea of Performance hunter stallion wrong? Some of the TB stallions - would they be used for eventers? thanks everyone[/quote]

USEF division results and Sire lists (Hunter/Jumper) are available on line back to 1999. You do have to change the URL to go back before 2005.

The horse results search goes back to 2002 through the menu.

Use the samples below to change from 2007 to 1999.

http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/pointsAwards/points/pointsDisplay.aspx?year=2007&zone=0&section=2000
http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/pointsAwards/points/pointsDisplay.aspx?year=1999&zone=0&section=2000

[Leland]

thank you PTF - I will try that. Beginning with breedings from 1999, I will only start looking at 2003 forward.

[fish]

thank you PTF - I will try that. Beginning with breedings from 1999, I will only start looking at 2003 forward.

I've been wondering whether you've considered contacting stallion owners and /or breeders-- particularly those who've been active in the h/j industry for a long time-- to get an idea of what the data of oral tradition may be like, how they found their successful breeding stock, etc.???? I'm thinking of people like Joni Werthen (sp?) at Warioto Farm, Diana Dodge, Ed Minchin, Phyllis Jones, Pat Dodson, Tish Quirk, etc., etc. I believe there's a lot of important breeding history stored in the brains of such people and would love to think that someone was collecting it and writing it down while the opportunity exists.

I have, BYW, called several of them with various questions over the years and generally found them quite open and forthcoming.

[Leland]

thank you Fish. I will keep that in mind.

Does anyone know if the European registries keep track, by registered stallion, of:
How many mares bred?
How many foals on the ground?
Results of the young, once of performance age?

thanks, I am finding that difficult here.

[clearound]

Who are you talking about?

If I had to guess, it would be Escapade.

[LovesHorses]

The Hanoverian stallion *Domiro did well in the pre-greens and 1st yrs until he went home to breed. Will have to see when he is coming back. No clue why Sir Caletto doesn't show anymore. He sured cleaned up when he did.

[spacely]

If I had to guess, it would be Escapade.

:yes::yes::yes::yes: We have a winner!!!

I am impressed with what he's producing. As they say, "the proof is in the pudding".

[Silver Bells]

Escapade is on his way to making a significant mark in Hunter Breeding as are several others. Time will definitely tell. :yes:

[fish]

Escapade is on his way to making a significant mark in Hunter Breeding as are several others. Time will definitely tell. :yes:

IMO, "time will tell"-- IF and only if we get reliable databases and/or documented histories of where our hunters come from at long last!!! Otherwise we will continue to have a very hard time either discovering the pedigrees of our great performers or tracking the performance and/or progeny records of our stallions and mares---e.g., I had to call Warioto to find out that The Wizard was by the Dutch stallion, Windsor; post here to discover that his dam, Bicoastal, was registered as Bold Glory, etc., etc. As things stand, I encounter a great many people who insist that the horses successful at the IHF, hunter breed shows, etc., are overfed models whose grooming for showing on the line has meant that they never mature into performance horses, or that the stallions whose progeny do well on the line or IHF are early maturing animals whose growth and careers stop short at 3 or 4. Personally, I do not believe this to be true, but how can anyone prove otherwise without a tracking system providing reliable long-term data?

[2Dogs]

Fish - I am one who is not sure that HB hasn't changed over the last 6-8 years and now is no longer so directly connected to performance horses. But that may reflect the market change in hunters OVERALL. I had never ridden a warmblood till the mid 90's - only TBs. Now, trainers I know buy (on average) only WBs, and most of the WBs they are showing they bought in Europe or from someone who brings in the "hunter" prospects. I do know one trainer who has a direct link to a local track, so he does take some TBs in for retraining/resale. Thus if the market is now buying a different kind of horse, one made up through the European system, then it may be the linkage from HB to hunter performance has broken.
Upperville - the first - third place winners in "Best Young Horse"? - a full TB and I believe two 1/2 TBs.
Then I watch Upperville performance days and I don't recognize a TB in the crowd - except, I believe Sister Parish (love that horse)? I could be wrong about her. So???

At least at Upperville they had a "Back From the Track" set of classes where bloodlines were ANNOUNCED! Why oh why can't they try to do that for all classes, where lines are known......... they don't even do it regularly for the jumpers, and most know those pedigrees.




I agree that without data we just don't know.

[Silver Bells]

2Dogs~ I agree 100%.
I will say that hunter/jumper people change horse's names all the time, unless of course, the horse is "famous".
Announcing/listing breeding if known would be ideal.

[HSGF]

For any Cabardino fans out there........here is a link to the Canadian board EMG...they run one of the biggest horse show operations in Ontario and have a least 4 or 5(if not more) A shows a year.
Recent results for Cabardino http://www.equiman.com/Results/2007/horseresponse.asp?HorseValue=619

I saw Cabardino go a couple of weeks ago and he made my mouth drop with his jump!

Popeye K offspring are out there competing........but most of them are here in Canada! Remember most of his 4,5,6 year old crops were born in Canada.
Over the past few weeks being at the horse show I have seen about 8 Popeye K offspring out there doing the hunter/jumper divisions. I'm sure there were some I even missed since I was not at the horse show everyday and did not see even half the classes go.

I did however have to approach the owners of these horses to find out who they were by etc.....Most of the Popeye's did stand out and have that Popeye look to them that he seems to throw to his kids so it made it a bit easier when I went to ask their grooms/owners who they were by. Unfortunately like the US we do not wirte down on results who the horses are sired by and who they are out of.:no:

Here is one of my Popeye's that I bred....he is a 4 years old and has been showing in the 4 year old jumper development series up here in Ontario Canada. http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2271473350075568778fXZrjq
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2336869610075568778nUVSbU

[Quinn]

HSGF, thank you for that. I bred Meredith to Cabardino last Tuesday and will u/s on the 20th. Although I was really bummed she didn't catch when bred to Rio Grande last month, this may be a blessing in disguise.

Beautiful baby by the way!!! He will be competing against one of the 4 year olds I "met" at the Walch farm last week. She's a mare by the name of "Rio's Lovely" I think.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[PineTreeFarm]

.. not sure HB hasn't changed over the last 6-8 years and now is no longer so directly connected to performance horses. But that may reflect the market change in hunters OVERALL. . Now, trainers I know buy (on average) only WBs, and most of the WBs they are showing they bought in Europe or from someone who brings in the "hunter" prospects. I do know one trainer who has a direct link to a local track, so he does take some TBs in for retraining/resale. Thus if the market is now buying a different kind of horse, one made up through the European system, then it may be the linkage from HB to hunter performance has broken.


I agree with 2Dogs.
I have access to data for a large NE Horse Show Assoc. In the course of a year about 1000 horses are involved in our shows. Most of the horses/ponies are Zone level competitors. All the shows are USEF recognized.
A few years ago I did a VERY informal survey. 30% of the horses had an HID so they are out of the USEF results data pool. Of the 70% that did record their horses the majority were thought to be some variety of WB.
But the breed was often listed as 'European WB'.
Horses were purchased through a trainer, buyer had no papers. Horse was thought to have been imported from Europe. This was a consistent description of the buyers knowledge of the origins of the horse. There were very few owners that had purchased a young horse specifically as a prospect. Those owners DID know details of the horses' breeding.
The other group of owners that had pedigree info were the owners of OTTB's. None of the horses in the sample had shown in HB classes (as far as the current owner knew).
This year I'll run the survey again on a more formal basis.

[Nadia1]

monami - I agree with you 100%. I think having a great mare is a good place to start but you don't have any idea what the future holds. All we can do as Americans is try and breed responsibly to bring back our brilliant american hunter (i.e. Gozzi, Cold Climate, The Wizard, Stocking Stuffer) and try and create future international stars.

Fish -- After much pleading Diana has started her own website which is currently under construction but has a little info so far. It is www. nokomisfarm.us and although Nob Hill is not listed on Acorn Hill's site he is there. His stud fee is incredibly affordable. I am not saying he is the only stallion out there I just think is one that has it all. The looks, moves great, jumps great! And he is TB cross which I love TB's(that discussion is for another day). Anyways, Nob Hill's offspring is young and hasn't proven themselves yet but mine thinks he is my house pet. He is quiet, quiet, quiet. He is classy as heck to look at, moves good and well in a year I will tell you how he jumps. Oh and he is about 90% TB (OOOHHHH). I wouldn't have it any other way.

Also, the stallion with all the bling. Yep that's what I'm talking about. After being around him in person I am not sure why mare owners are breeding fancy trail horses with flashy markings. Also, I really think if you are going ot breed horses than you need to do your homework and see the animal in person and get a history of the person who has him. When you look at a man like Walsh that has Rio Grande or Diana that has Nob Hill. These peopl have been breeding for 40, 50, 60 years and created these magnificent stallions by their hard work and research. A DVD doesn't tell you anything no matter how pretty. It is the things that you don't see in the DVD that would blow your mind.

Anyways, horses are a matter of a million people's different opinions and desires. My opinion is very far from others. I am an old soul in a young body. I miss the grandeur of horse shows gone by when Mrs. Wheeler would bring chandeliers in trucks for her tack room and when hunters were required to jump real jumps with a fire and brilliance that we lunge out of them today. I like when my six year old makes me hit my teeth jumping a jump really well. I wish that horse shows hadn't become a McDonalds drive thru. Everybody ordering the same thing that is so boring to taste.

I am new to this forum and actually registered to respond to this particular line of comments. I was a little put back by the strong opinions of some people on this forum in regard to hunter stallions in their local area. I am not sure what stallion they are talking about but I found their comments to be very negative. I am from around the same area and the stallions that are being promoted in that area for Hunter breeding have fantastic breeding, yes some are young and still have to prove themselves through their progeny. Sorry but just because a stallion performs great does not mean it's offspring will. The race horse breeders willvouch for that.
The final test for a stallion is what he produces and it is not fair to be critical of them at a young age especially since some have been sidelined with injuries or setbacks of other sorts. Yes we are all entitled to our own opinions but hey think about how we effect others in our statements. yes I am an old soul also but I also have been around a long time. The days of the only brilliant hunter are kind of over in that most of the hunter world is made up of amateur riders that do not need to be riding the brilliant crack you out of the saddle horse. The horsemen like Mrs. Wheeler are first and foremost class acts and would be careful in what they say about other people's horses.
I think we all need to work together not against each other. That is how it is done in Germany which they have been breeding performance horse for centuries not just decades. Look who continually wins at the olympic level. So horsemen of today lets get off our high horse and be more humble like the greta horsemen of yesterday.

[HSGF]

No problem Quinn.......it was my pleasure!:)

Lucky you.....Carardino is just beautiful! Fingers cross that your mare is in foal! :yes:

[2Dogs]

HSGF - you know I love your babes and Carbadino - huge fan! But! - you Canadiens don't count in this discussion :)

[2Dogs]

ps - because yours is a happily different world :)

[HSGF]

:D

[lauriep]

I for one think it is important to question the rush to a stallion for two reasons:
1) the "sheep" mentality that makes hordes of people rush to breed to a stallion, many of which also have a mare that should not be bred, without studying BREEDING in general, and a stallion's performance and production record in particular. This country is FAMOUS for wanting to breed to what is in vogue right now, regardless of if that stallion is suitable for your mare, or if your mare should be bred. Just because she has ovaries and a uterus doesn't make it so. The most basic principle of breeding is breed the BEST to the BEST, not mediocre to the best and hope to improve.

2)Sorry, but many stallion owners are unwilling to recognize, or share, the faults as well as the virtues of their stallions. So, how are you to learn these things if you don't allow people to voice opinions? If someone shares a negative opinion of a stallion, I don't necessarily rule it out because of that, but I will investigate a poster's claims to see if I agree. Oh, and there are just as many stallions standing out there, IMO, that have no business reproducing, or are in the hands of owners who didn't learn the business BEFORE taking on the huge task of standing and promoting a stallion. A set of balls also does not breeding stock make.

I happen to know the poster who addressed the blingy stallion in FL, and she knows horses and has seen said stallion in person. Have you? I trust her judgement, and she has no axes to grind.

[Silver Bells]

I happen to know the poster who addressed the blingy stallion in FL, and she knows horses and has seen said stallion in person. Have you? I trust her judgement, and she has no axes to grind.

Unfortunately, opinions are like --------.... everybody has one! :lol:

If you look at Devon & Upperville this year, breeding entries were light, especially the TB's. :eek:
If we are to encourage more people to get involved.... how does all this negativity help? People hopefully learn from their mistakes and successes. Everyone is PASSIONATE about their horses, and truly believes in what they have and do.
How can we even speculate or question a NEW stallion or his progeny when they have only young offspring out there... Time will tell, and besides, I keep hearing how the mare has a 60-70% influence....:confused:

If the North American breeding programs have a chance, breeders will have to be more supportive of each other.... :yes:

[jparkes]

I for one think it is important to question the rush to a stallion for two reasons:
1) the "sheep" mentality that makes hordes of people rush to breed to a stallion, many of which also have a mare that should not be bred, without studying BREEDING in general, and a stallion's performance and production record in particular. This country is FAMOUS for wanting to breed to what is in vogue right now, regardless of if that stallion is suitable for your mare, or if your mare should be bred. Just because she has ovaries and a uterus doesn't make it so. The most basic principle of breeding is breed the BEST to the BEST, not mediocre to the best and hope to improve.

2)Sorry, but many stallion owners are unwilling to recognize, or share, the faults as well as the virtues of their stallions. So, how are you to learn these things if you don't allow people to voice opinions? If someone shares a negative opinion of a stallion, I don't necessarily rule it out because of that, but I will investigate a poster's claims to see if I agree. Oh, and there are just as many stallions standing out there, IMO, that have no business reproducing, or are in the hands of owners who didn't learn the business BEFORE taking on the huge task of standing and promoting a stallion. A set of balls also does not breeding stock make.

I happen to know the poster who addressed the blingy stallion in FL, and she knows horses and has seen said stallion in person. Have you? I trust her judgement, and she has no axes to grind.

Lauriep, you've been around long enough to know this, but I don't recall the flocking to popular stallions many years ago like I see today. Were there more stallions to chose from back 30 years ago, especially for the hunters? I can think of quite a few that we had and used, but their lines are all gone now. Was there a change in the attitude of mare owners, must breed to the new fella imported from across the pond? Forget the quality we already have over here?

When I read the postings of the hot stallions standing, I have to wonder about the good ones that have been standing for a while who have a fine produce record and are being passed over because there's a "new guy" in town. Will their lines fade into the sunset as well?

Personally, I believe a stallion should have proven himself through his offspring before he stands to the public. His own performance record is not nearly as important as what he produces in my opinion.

[Silver Bells]

Let me put this out there since everyone has decided to start trashing me. If you take away a stallion's performance resume and breed to him solely on his bloodlines that is alright. Again, let's dumb down the entire process of breeding horses and not demand more out of what we choose to breed.

Silver bells - your business partner told me point blank that she had never seen that stallion in person and I will assume the same for you. As someone who is writing articles on breeding you should be careful to promote things that you are unaware of. I have spent a ton of my own money flying to a good many parts of this country to inspect stallions in person. I mentioned a number of times in my posts that the things I said were my opinion and not fact. But terribly incorrect front legs, well my friend, that is a fact.

Like I said opinions are like --------, everybody has one. :winkgrin:

Now HunterBreedingJunkie
First~ I do not have a business partner. I have a good friend with whom I share an interest in a pony and write an article with.
Second~ The articles we write on breeding are not promoting any particular stallion/ breeder/ trainer/ handler/ owner.
Third~ why you thought you were being singled out????:confused:

I, me... am very proud of MANY stallions and BREEDING PROGRAMS here. In my OPINION there are too many good stallions out there, and I can only touch on a few of them. I don't have the time to "fly all over the country", and HunterBreedingJunkie please keep your "green eyed monster" in it's cage! :cry: You don't even know me, and I don't know you...

In my opinion, it's posters like HunterBreedingJunkie that hurt our industry, rather that help it. :eek:

Why can't everyone work together?

[arnika]

jparkes, I've seen the breeding to the new hot stallion increase over the past twenty five years with the advent of fresh-cooled and now frozen semen. Prior to that, the mare owners used the ones available in their area unless they were willing to transport their girl.

The other thing I've seen with the advent of WBs is the llama/ostrich/emu pyramid mentality. WBs were rare, cost a lot of money and many people jumped in without ever breeding before to make a quick profit. Most come and go, falling by the wayside after a few years if their breeding decisions don't pan out. Some had either a good eye for horseflesh or did a lot of research and have developed very good breeding programs and they will last, with good luck.

[Quinn]

2Dogs just as an fyi and with a smile attached.

Canadiens - we'd be hockey players
Canadians - we'd be, well Canadians.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[Nadia1]

It is nice to hear so many people passionate about improving the hunter breeding program in this country. Again though ,I still feel we should all realize it is not only important what a stallion or mare did during their career, but also what their Sires and Dams have done and produced. Sometimes an individual stallion or mare may not make it up to the 4 foot division ,since that seems to be the determing factor on whether a horse is good or not,but their ancestors were remarkable horses and have proven themselves. Also, we really need to try and be professional, One can state his/her opinion without offending a stallion owner or for that matter the mare owners who like that particular stallion. I am and always will be a THoroughbred lover, but a good horse is a good horse.

[2Dogs]

Oh QUINN - I stared and stared at that spelling but was too tired to check and thought, well, maybe those in Quebec spell it that way?? Ha ha - I really chuckled - thanks for the correction.

And, by the way, GO MIGHTY DUCKS!!!

[smilennod]

ok...so im not any sort of hunter breeding junkie :) and im not near as volatile as some of the poster on this fine site, but i ride for a living and ive modeled quite a few ponies in the day and i'd like to know where the incorrect front legs thing stems from - i dont think that we should all hold hands (germs and all!) but seems to me that people could be a little less vindictive and there are several things that you can pick ANY stallion apart for...
as an aside someone mentioned that people like to breed to trends and not to what suits their mare - i agree! However, "bling's" mom is really quite realisitic about what type of mare "Suits" her boy and just bred a FANTASTIC baby who's mom is strong where he is "short Suited" so to speak...(though he's always wearing his tux...) time to go...too many puns...lets all be nice - no lets all be truthful and civil - i can deal with that :)

[lauriep]

jparkes, I agree with arnika, that a lot of it has come with the advent of frozen and cooled semen. And, back then, live cover had to happen because almost everything was TB, and many couldn't, or wouldn't, ship their mares. But I have seen it happen in dogs, too. It goes hand in hand with the "instant gratification" that people demand now. Rather than do your homework, buy a REALLY good mare, and then ferret out the BEST stallion for her, it is easier and quicker to just breed the mare you already have, poor temperament and conformation and all, to the latest fad stallion. Then, you can brag that you have a "so and so" baby. That is, until the cute foal has to grow up, behave and actually become something.

Mares stay intact their entire lives, and so may be cchosen to reproduce at any time, after their performance capabilities are known. Stallions, however, must have the decision made to leave well enough alone, early on, long before it is known what kind of performer they will be. Some NEVER get to the shows (this bothers me about pony stallions. Many are never even broke, let alone taught to jump around a course, do lead changes, etc. You are just supposed to accept on blind faith that these things will be there in the kids. Not so easy for me to do...I digress...) and yet, on the strength of their pedigree, become available for breeding. And the charisma of standing a stallion is appealing to some. You can always cut them later, but by then they may have sired ??? babies. If we want these beautiful line babies to then perform, I think it IS important that the parents have done so, too. My pet, pet peeve is for someone to say "My mare was too crazy/unsound/couldn't jump/etc., so I decided to breed her." Do WHAT???

And, if the stallion is in this country, and you are breeding to him, I think that every possible effort should be made to see him in person. Well made videos can be orchestrated to cover a multitude of sins and performance problems. Failing that, be sure you have seen NUMEROUS successful offspring from a variety of mares. Then you can be fairly assured of success.

[jvanrens]

Oh QUINN - I stared and stared at that spelling but was too tired to check and thought, well, maybe those in Quebec spell it that way?? Ha ha - I really chuckled - thanks for the correction.

And, by the way, GO MIGHTY DUCKS!!!

2Dogs, I just might have to put you on ignore for that! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :winkgrin:

Seriously, the Ducks played great, but the Sens gave us one heck of a ride getting there! :cool: I'll forgive you for being tired, but unless you're referring to a Francophone or the breed of horse, please, it's Canadian! ;)

[bingbingbing]

I for one think it is important to question the rush to a stallion for two reasons:
1) the "sheep" mentality that makes hordes of people rush to breed to a stallion, many of which also have a mare that should not be bred, without studying BREEDING in general, and a stallion's performance and production record in particular. This country is FAMOUS for wanting to breed to what is in vogue right now, regardless of if that stallion is suitable for your mare, or if your mare should be bred. Just because she has ovaries and a uterus doesn't make it so. The most basic principle of breeding is breed the BEST to the BEST, not mediocre to the best and hope to improve.

2)Sorry, but many stallion owners are unwilling to recognize, or share, the faults as well as the virtues of their stallions. So, how are you to learn these things if you don't allow people to voice opinions? If someone shares a negative opinion of a stallion, I don't necessarily rule it out because of that, but I will investigate a poster's claims to see if I agree. Oh, and there are just as many stallions standing out there, IMO, that have no business reproducing, or are in the hands of owners who didn't learn the business BEFORE taking on the huge task of standing and promoting a stallion. A set of balls also does not breeding stock make.

I happen to know the poster who addressed the blingy stallion in FL, and she knows horses and has seen said stallion in person. Have you? I trust her judgement, and she has no axes to grind.

Great post.

I agree that breeders need to support one another. Support requires truth and knowledge. No stallion is perfect and there are many stallion owners that are not upfront with their stallion's shortcomings. It seems that things like the color du jour is all that matters to some. Serious/knowledgeable breeders cannot be expected to look past glaring flaws regardless of the owner, color, bling, popularity etc... That is not being unsupportive, but trying to breed the best horse possible.

This post is about proven hunter stallions. I don't need to see a horse campaigned into the ground. But I would like to see them in rated divisions in good company. Jumping is one of the most heritable traits, I want to see any stallion I breed to jump and jump very well.

[sixpoundfarm]

Probably no longer a stallion but Nairobi was the Large Junior division champion at the Showplace Spring Spectacular this past week.
I believe they have frozen from him.

[Silly Mommy]

I agree wholeheartedly with seeing the stallion in person.

Many stallions that have been the hot new thang on here, I certainly wouldn't have bred to, upon seeing them in person. Maybe in a few years, once I see what they produce (I too have looked closely - in person - at the blingy one mentioned), and made sure I had a solid producing mare that could be bred to a mule and still pop out a strip horse (I have one of those ;).

I have nothing to add, other than I feel that many stallions out there are being overlooked due to not being blingy enough, or the flavor of the year. I am actually considering keeping semi-private with my boy because of the way these boards are.

[jparkes]

I have nothing to add, other than I feel that many stallions out there are being overlooked due to not being blingy enough, or the flavor of the year. I am actually considering keeping semi-private with my boy because of the way these boards are.

I share your thoughts exactly and that's why I have my own stallions for my own mares. However, I do have a select few outside mare owners who like to breed to one of my boys, and that's about the way it's going to stay.

[Silver Bells]

Word has it that an Escapade colt named Endulgence made it's way to Junior Johnson's to be prepped for the futurity. Best of luck to this team. :)

[florida foxhunter]

Claim to Fame didn't show in the hunters in 2007 because I was busy readying for another competition......however he did extremely well every year through 2006! Although he won a lot, including winning models in Green conformation against an all solid field, I chose to compete him in the Adult Amateurs (only limited my MY abilities)....many suggested it showed him off more to have him taking care of his "older adult amateur" rider!!......and that he did.....we won many shows with back to back blues!
I finally have his first test filly, A'Claim, going nicely under saddle and look forward to showing her soon.........
Also, I'm looking forward to showing a pinto youngster of his on the line this fall or next year..........Exclaimation! He's really special........AND GORGEOUS!
If you're not extremely wealthy with lots of employees, it's tough to do hunter breeding, showing, training and shipping semen......as most of you already know ,,,<smile>

[fish]

Claim to Fame didn't show in the hunters in 2007 because I was busy readying for another competition......however he did extremely well every year through 2006! Although he won a lot, including winning models in Green conformation against an all solid field, I chose to compete him in the Adult Amateurs (only limited my MY abilities)....many suggested it showed him off more to have him taking care of his "older adult amateur" rider!!......and that he did.....we won many shows with back to back blues!
I finally have his first test filly, A'Claim, going nicely under saddle and look forward to showing her soon.........
Also, I'm looking forward to showing a pinto youngster of his on the line this fall or next year..........Exclaimation! He's really special........AND GORGEOUS!
If you're not extremely wealthy with lots of employees, it's tough to do hunter breeding, showing, training and shipping semen......as most of you already know ,,,<smile>

Yes, it is tough-- and that's one of the reason I think mare owners should be grateful when stallion owners go to the considerable trouble and expense of campaigning their stallions to prove they can do what they were bred to do. Granted, some are able to do it and enjoy it because they are extremely wealthy, but others are hardworking horse people who make some enormous sacrifices because they feel compelled to prove they have a very special horse. Of course, even they cannot exactly be poor-- e.g., I've known people to sell one or more of their horses so they can heavily campaign one they consider special-- but how many of us have anything at all to sell that would bring in enough money to do the trick!?

[Serah]

Is there a website or pics of him anywhere?



I know this is late but information on Bonfeuer can be found on our website at

www.millcreekfarm.net


Thanks for the compliments, he is an amazing horse!!!

[Blue Moon]

Another stallion that was showing successfully and breeding at the same time was G. P.'s Krugerrand. I don't think he's shown recently, though. He was for sale last I heard. His offspring have done quite well so far.

[Rocky XVI]

For the 2008 summer season, Cabardino has been shown in Canada in the adult amateur hunter division (2'6" to 3') with an adult amateur, and in the open/regular working hunter division (3'6" to 4') with Erynn Ballard.

Equine Canada results (PITA database where you have to click on each result to find the horse's placing in that class)
http://results.equinecanada.ca/out/display_horse_results.asp?year=&yearopt=0&passport_num=55547

Ontario Hunter/Jumper standings (note that the information is not complete as not all shows held this summer have submitted their results)

Working Hunter results with Erynn Ballard
http://www.equiman.com/ohja/horse_points.php?horse_no=374&point_code=WORKING

Adult/Amateur results
http://www.equiman.com/ohja/horse_points.php?horse_no=374&point_code=AMATO

[Cinnybren]

I don't think anyone has mentioned SJ66's stallion Apiro who has been showing in the hunters in 2007-2008(2nd years or Regular's, I think). Also, Crestline's stallion Palladio has been showing in the Regular's this year quite successfully. Both lovely stallions, as are the others who've been already mentioned.

[EllenAspen]

Interesting thread. We have an All the Gold yearling that we plan to leave whole.

Attached is his photo from a breeding show this past summer.

We plan to take it very slowly and have excellent trainers to help us. It is a long haul, though, to foal a colt...raise him and put all that needs to go into making him into a successful performance horse and stallion...many things can happen along the way.

So good so far though...

[horsechick]

I second Apiro...saw him in person and he's drop dead gorgeous. From what I've seen, he has all the qualities to be a top hunter AND a top sire-definitely one to watch!

[SilverBalls]

I know this is late but information on Bonfeuer can be found on our website at
www.millcreekfarm.net
Thanks for the compliments, he is an amazing horse!!!

Very nice and he's gray! :)

[europa]

http://saturniastables.com/clickonclay.html#

I really like Click on Clay alot too.

[showjumpers66]

Thanks, BNH & horsechick! For 2009, Apiro will be showing in the Amateur Owner hunters with Summer Stoffel. If everything goes according to plan, they will move up to the Working hunters in 2010.

[europa]

Don't forget Lanfriese II

He is currently #10 on U.S.E.F. list of hunter sires for 2006 and the top Oldenburg listed.

[fish]

Is this thread about stallions who've proved THEMSELVES in the h/j arena(s) (i.e. HB and/or performance?), and/or gotten themselves APPROVED in one or more registries through h/j performance, or stallions (of whatever history) whose OFFSPRING have proven them successful as h/j sires (in HB and/or performance divisions)? I ask, because depending upon the category(ies), one will produce quite different lists.

E.g., Cassini I and Chenook top the list of performance hunter sires although neither had a hunter career. Furthermore, if we are looking at stallions who've made the h/j leading sires list(s), I do think it important to check how many offspring accumulated the points putting them there. I would not, for example, consider a horse a "proven" h/j sire if he made the list on the basis of points accumulated by only one horse--- it would be like calling Old Bob Bowers a top sire of racehorses because John Henry's earnings kept putting him on the lists.

Meantime, I am thinking of examples of stallions who have, indeed, proven themselves in the hunter arena, whether registry approved on the basis of their careers or not:

Popeye K, Cunningham, As Always, Crown Affair, Sir Caletto, Jupiter, Shine, Cabardino, A Fine Romance. Others who've been out there but have not (yet?-- and IMO) acquired comparable records: Escapade, Apiro, Vallado, Lotus T....
I am sure my senior memory and laziness have omitted equally worthy horses, but would hope stallions such as these of interest to this thread. I am very grateful that their connections have them out where they can be seen, and would love to see a full list so I can look for them at the shows and/or track their records on the USEF website.

Re: stallions with proven offspring at the shows--- as mentioned above, many have been very successful h/j sires without having had h/j careers of their own-- then, too, some have been successful as HB and/or IHF sires, but not so much performance, while some (e.g. Alla C'zar, All the Gold) have offspring themselves in both arenas, while others (Aristos B?) have seen more success through their mature offspring than get on the line.

Although the USEF database still has a lot to be desired, I must say that I am finding what it does offer of great interest, and hope to see it become more inclusive, reliable, and useful source of information on what group of horses has actually done what and in which divisions.

P.S. I consider registry approvals on the basis of h/j performance (Popeye K, Cunningham, others?) very much a "work in progress," whose relevance to the production of hunters has yet to be determined.

[showjumpers66]

Fish, I find it interesting that you feel Sir Caletto's show career was more significant than Apiro's. Sir Caletto competed in 7 shows in 2004 (2nd year greens and working hunters). Apiro has competed in 6 shows in 2008 (2nd year greens and working hunters) and the show season is not over yet. He has been in the ring with Contender (#1 working hunter in 2007), Renaissance (#1 working hunter in 2008), and Cabardino and held his own. Appears to me to be pretty darn near the same. He had a very busy breeding season this year (77 mares). What more do you expect him to do and still be available for the mare owners?

Vallado has also been out showing all year this year, although we did move him to the jumpers in order to meet his stallion licensing requirements. He, in fact, moved up from the level 3 jumpers to the level 6 jumpers in just a 30-day period and is doing quite well for his greenness. I apologize if I sound defensive, but our stallions are out there competing successfully. As everyone knows, it is expensive to show, tough to manage a stallion's breeding career and show/training schedule, and difficult to maintain a healthy, sound sporthorse, so it is a bitter pill to swallow when someone is critical of the efforts.

[risingstarfarm]

I apologize if I sound defensive, but our stallions are out there competing successfully. As everyone knows, it is expensive to show, tough to manage a stallion's breeding career and show/training schedule, and difficult to maintain a healthy, sound sporthorse, so it is a bitter pill to swallow when someone is critical of the efforts.


You are absolutely correct Barbara!

[europa]

Your stallions speak for themselves!! ;)

[fish]

Fish, I find it interesting that you feel Sir Caletto's show career was more significant than Apiro's. Sir Caletto competed in 7 shows in 2004 (2nd year greens and working hunters). Apiro has competed in 6 shows in 2008 (2nd year greens and working hunters) and the show season is not over yet. He has been in the ring with Contender (#1 working hunter in 2007), Renaissance (#1 working hunter in 2008), and Cabardino and held his own. Appears to me to be pretty darn near the same. He had a very busy breeding season this year (77 mares). What more do you expect him to do and still be available for the mare owners?

Vallado has also been out showing all year this year, although we did move him to the jumpers in order to meet his stallion licensing requirements. He, in fact, moved up from the level 3 jumpers to the level 6 jumpers in just a 30-day period and is doing quite well for his greenness. I apologize if I sound defensive, but our stallions are out there competing successfully. As everyone knows, it is expensive to show, tough to manage a stallion's breeding career and show/training schedule, and difficult to maintain a healthy, sound sporthorse, so it is a bitter pill to swallow when someone is critical of the efforts.

I'm sorry-- and didn't mean to offend anyone or sound-- or be critical-- hence the reference to my "senior memory and laziness," and the "yet?" Nor did I think or mean to suggest that one group of horses' careers is "more significant" than the others. E.g., I've never thoroughly researched Sir Caletto's career, or Apiro's, let alone compared the numbers. I was merely going (somewhat carelessly, I'm afraid) from my general impression that Sir Caletto apparently made his name in the ring a while ago while Apiro is younger and still out there building his record. I am very sorry if I seemed to be disparaging anyone, being extremely appreciative of what it takes to manage and promote, let alone build a show career for a stallion.

Way back when I started this thread, I was really only aware of the two stallions competing at Devon last year: Popeye K and Cunningham, and was wondering who else was out there where the public could see them-- because I was going out to look :). Must say, I'm pretty happy with how much I've learned from raising the question. At that point, I was pretty frustrated to find that when I looked at the USEF division points/ranking, there wasn't even an indication of gender on the listings (How hard could it be to include "g," "m," or "s" with the names?)!! Since then, I've very much enjoyed learning of the other stallions at the H/J shows, what divisions I can find them in, and am still in the process of trying to sort out who's done what, what "proven" means when different people and/or organizations are talking about stallions who figure in the h/j world, etc. IOW, I'm still trying to find out about the various stallions, learn where to get the data, how to analyze it, etc., not pass judgement-- and certainly not knock-- anyone's horses or efforts in the ring.

My apologies again, showjumpers. I assure you I have nothing but respect for your horses or any of the others I mentioned. Sometimes I think I should just shut up, but then I consider how much I learn from having my mistakes corrected and figure it may be best after all (at least for me) that I go ahead and make them.

[showjumpers66]

Thank you for your reply. It was greatly appreciated. Again, my apologies for being defensive. I am okay with the stallions, pros and cons, being discussed as I feel that the forums are an important tool for the breeders when they are gathering information, but it is also important that the information is accurate.

[goodmorning]

hey sj66 - any word on Apiro's show schedule for this upcoming year? Or better yet, his breeding availability ;) Would love to get a glimpse of this boy in the flesh :yes: :)

[showjumpers66]

I am posting his show schedule next week, but we are going to try to hit 22 shows in 2009. :eek: But, it looks like that is what it will take to be competitive in the A/Os. I'll collect/ship when he is home and he will probably be home all of April, May, June, and July with the exception of a warm-up week before Devon and Devon if Summer & Apiro qualify. There are 5 weeks of local shows during these 4 months that we can hit and still ship semen. If December and January go well, we might try 3 weeks of WEF at the end of February / beginning of March.

[EquineLVR]

I am posting his show schedule next week, but we are going to try to hit 22 shows in 2009. :eek: But, it looks like that is what it will take to be competitive in the A/Os. I'll collect/ship when he is home and he will probably be home all of April, May, June, and July with the exception of a warm-up week before Devon and Devon if Summer & Apiro qualify. There are 5 weeks of local shows during these 4 months that we can hit and still ship semen. If December and January go well, we might try 3 weeks of WEF at the end of February / beginning of March.

HOLY COW SJ66!!

[fish]

HOLY COW SJ66!!

Sounds about right to me if they're trying for a HOY award :)

[showjumpers66]

That's the goal, but all of the moons will need to align first. :lol:

[fish]

That's the goal, but all of the moons will need to align first. :lol:

Not to mention health (both mental and physical) of rider, trainer, farrier(s), vet(s), owners (of both stallion and mares), chiropractor, massage therapist, saddle fitter, haulers, etc-- and their families! What FUN! :D

[3Dogs]

SJ - you can be defensive all you want! :yes: As long as dialogue stays civil, which it has, this is a perfect place for discourse.

Here is my perspective, and only my perspective:

I have been in the H/J world a good long time and have had the opportunity to see many of the stallions mentioned by Fish. I made my ONE breeding choice based on the stallion I liked the best, from all the stallions I had (then) seen in the show ring (and went from there to do further research and educate myself about bloodlines). I had (and still have) the goal of producing, at least,( I hope) a good 3'6" hunter (with my bigger dream to produce a great working hunter :winkgrin:.) Who knows :cool:;)
I did pick one of the stallions mentioned when brand new (in the US), and I picked him based (mostly) on my watching him show. And I wouldn't pick some of the stallions listed by Fish, based, again, on watching them show. But I would always try to pick a stallion I HAVE seen show ((unless picking older and/or very established bloodlines - then I rely on past/present careers (mostly as jumpers for me) and offspring)).

Many of the stallions mentioned by Fish just now have youngsters coming of age to enter the show ring (don't mean the HB ring) - Apiro does not, but he sure has looked impressive in his show videos! I haven't seen him in the flesh but I would like too (although 22 shows, eek! that's a lot for any horse - and human :lol:).
If a stallion has been producing for awhile, I would love to take into consideration the number of success stories to mares bred: One or two successful offspring out of 1,000 put on the ground is not as impressive as one or two great successes out of 30 on the ground. Agree with Fish that one heavily campaigned hunter that catapults a stallion to the top of the USEF list does not a hunter stallion make :).
One day we might hope to get such information( :D to dream , the impossible dream...)

Lastly, can't forget the mares!

[fish]

Just spent a little while on the USEF site, and was interested to see that All the Gold has climbed to the top of the sires of hunters list. What a lot of offspring he has showing, too!

I have to admit that I'm glad to see these American-breds, by a stallion standing here, successfully showing beyond HB/IHF. Whatever our individual tastes re: the particular horses, IMO data/records like this do give the lie to the idea that people need to buy in Europe to get winners and can only help our industry.