How to convince buyers to buy young? [Archive]

denny

Jun. 4, 2007, 07:02 AM

Two days ago I was talking to Connie Walker, the former Pan Am endurance individual gold medalist. She owns a stallion half brother of Theodore O` Connor, and he`s been a top endurance horse as well.
Nobody breeds to him because people want "ready made"
But in lots of sports, ready made equals very expensive, so buying weanlings/yearlings/2-yr olds is the only way, short of blind luck, that many people can get "into" pedigrees that are apt to lead to top performance, like Connie`s stallion Otis.
I know this is a common theme here, but has anyone found a strategy for convincing buyers to buy young that they would share? It`s maybe inherent in the American instant gratification syndrome to hate to wait for anything, and maybe it`s partly a function of not having many real young horse trainers out there, but I think lots of American buyers are missing great opportunities without even knowing what they`re missing.
Any way to change that mentality, or are Americans too impatient or too "something" to get it?

Oldenburg Mom

Jun. 4, 2007, 07:09 AM

Denny,

I've always said that it's like buying an expensive young horse on layaway. At the end of the day, they still cost the same. In fact the baby would probably cost a bit more. But at least you don't have to pay for it all at once!!!

And while you can't ride a baby, the joy they give is unparelled. They are worth every penny you pay—no make that TWICE what you pay.

Of course, do NOT bring up the subject of TRAINING the youngster...that would kill the deal.

YankeeLawyer

Jun. 4, 2007, 07:24 AM

I've always said that it's like buying an expensive young horse on layaway. At the end of the day, they still cost the same. In fact the baby would probably cost a bit more. But at least you don't have to pay for it all at once!!!

Same thought at the same time...creepy ; ).
You can often find 2 or 3 year olds ready to start, and in some cases, youngsters going under saddle, for the same price as a good foal, but without having to pay for 3 years' or so worth of care and vet bills. Also, I think a number of people lack the confidence and/or the ability to spot young talent, so they prefer to wait until the horse is older. And I don't think you can overlook the influence of people's trainers, who, in many cases would likely prefer that their clients buy horses ready to compete immediately.

I have bred, bought foals, and bought horses from super green to very made. Among the youngsters, it is definitely less of a headache for me if the horse is at least already started, but I do have one horse that I bought as a foal that now, at 3, I never would have been able to buy, so sometimes that can work in your favor.

On the other hand, I have a number of breeder friends who sell their babies in utero or soon after they hit the ground at very good prices. They have very focused breeding programs and seem to sell mostly by word of mouth; they do not advertise extensively. Some have repeat customers who have bought several foals from them. They have top mares and breed to well-regarded stallions.

ise@ssl

Jun. 4, 2007, 07:46 AM

If someone isn't comfortable buying a youngster I won't try to hard sell them. The reality is some people who may be very good horseman may not be capable to bringing up a foal to riding age. If they don't want to raise a foal then it's just not a good combination.

alliekat

Jun. 4, 2007, 07:46 AM

I think it all depends on what their plans are for the horse. If it for their personal use they are probally more apt to buy young. But if it is for a project that will be for sale they will want something ready to go. Less risk involved over a shorter period of time.

I personally like to buy young myself. For one, there is nothing like the bond that is made with a foal when it begains to trust you. I like to do all my own ground work with them. Two, is does open the maket up to better quailty that is more affordable at that moment. Yes in the end they cost the same , but the feeling you get from hand raising your future super star is priceless. Three, the piece of mind I get from knowing excatly what are my horses stong suits and vices are. I know all the handleing or lack of handleing they have because I did it. It takes alot of the guess work out for me.

camohn

Jun. 4, 2007, 07:47 AM

Aside from the above things (all true) the biggie for me is that the person that buys a foal is generally someone who has their own farm. They can cost effectively raise Baby that way. The majority of folks that buy horses do not own their own farm....the are in a boarding situation....and few folks want to pay 400 bucks a month board where they board for a horse they can't ride for 3 years.Yes, there are pasture board situations and places that cost less....but it's the idea. Folks that board mostly want a horse they can ride pretty soon for the board $ they are shelling out.....so the buyers market gets a lot bigger when you get to riding age. Also once you get past the cute weanlings yearlings and 2 YOs go through some real growth spurt uglies. Someone that knows babies can see past that but many folks can't....they just see a really awkward looking kid. In The Fuglies my now 3 YO filly: her hips really widened and she got wicked cow hocked overnight. She stayed that way from 2 to 3. She looks almost normal again now!!! The now 2 YO didn't grow unevenly as in butt high.....but he had massively long legs (will be about 17H) and all he could do was trip all over the stilts. Both actually look half decent now.........but for the past year both had the Teenage Fuglies.

IronwoodFarm

Jun. 4, 2007, 07:53 AM

I have very mixed feelings about buyers and young horses. For the most part, I consider that most prospective buyers should NOT buy a young horse. As a breeder, I only sell my youngsters to other breeders or very experienced horse people who know what they are doing when starting a horse. I keep most of my horses until they are started before I sell them.

I really don't think this is a matter of marketing. I believe that there is a very LIMITED market for young horse sales because there are a limited number of people who are capable of dealing with a youngster. I don't think that this market niche is going to grow, either. The demographics just aren't there.

Leena

Jun. 4, 2007, 08:38 AM

I believe everyone mentionned what I want to say !

I bought a yearling 7 years ago because I could not find anything affordable on the market for me sound with talent.

I end up I was boarding...Over the first year I move my filly 3 times to get pastures..decent one. Well, I was surprised how difficult it was !
I am very good at handling young horses, backing them...but the pasture issue just killed me.

Anyway we end up building our own, I invest in land and now I can see all the youngsters having room to play, grass to eat ! And I have a small ring where I train them, handle them; Le bonheur !!!

I offer people to keep their young until ready to be start. This way I know they will be in good hands (mine) and well handled.
But mainly, I keep my youngstock and I offer them for sale when they are backed and can be ridden lightly.

I do understand why people are reluctant to buy so young even if you can see that it is different in the quarter horse.

siegi b.

Jun. 4, 2007, 09:32 AM

Leena and Camohn hit the nail on the head....

If clients have to board a weanling/yearling it tends to be a deal-breaker, so the breeder that wants to sell those age groups should think about offering reasonable board on them until the client can start the horse.

Fairview Horse Center

Jun. 4, 2007, 09:39 AM

I think most people just can't see what a youngster will become. They see the strange growth stages, and don't want that. I have shown people both sire and dam that they LOVE, foal scored wonderful at inspection, high placing at Devon, but they SEE what is in front of them, and that is NOT the horse they want.

You can also talk until you are out of breath, but all they hear is a sales pitch from a "horse dealer".

Recently, I have lost 2 very interested buyers. One because the not quite 3 year old was a bit dowhill. Yep, he hit a growth spurt. The other because the not quite 2 year old was a bit narrow behind. Yep, he's a baby. In both of these cases, I pulled the parents out to show them what the genes were. They just couldn't pay for the growth stage.

mairzeadoats

Jun. 4, 2007, 09:48 AM

I'm someone who wanted to buy just started or ready to start, rather than raise a baby. My reasons were:

. focus on riding/training
. not risk screwing up a baby due to my lack of experience
. reduce risk of career-ending pasture injury before horse has even been backed
. eliminate risk of buying beautiful baby that grows up to be "frankenhorse" (and despite many breeder's assurances, I've seen enough before and after pix to know that they can start out swans and end up ugly ducklings)
. not spend a bazillion dollars on board only to have boarding facility wreck baby's mind or body or both

Well, life had other plans and I ended up buying an 18 month old. Based on my experiences as a former boarder who now is raising her first youngster at her first farm home, I'd just like to share my experiences:

I'd never buy a youngster if I had to board out, unless I was in a position to board at a breeding farm where the day-to-day handling would be correct and where the youngster would be in an appropriate environment. Even then I'd be reluctant.

I do love the close relationship I'm developing with my filly.

I do miss riding terribly.

I'm seeing such athletic ability combined with silliness that riding her seems a really far off dream. Maybe when she's 20 or 30 :lol:

So far (knock wood) my biggest fears about her are working out nicely. At 20 months old she still had a weanling head and neck on a fast growing body; at 24 months old, the head and neck have suddenly caught up. Her legs seemed straight with toeing out appropriate to width of chest; I've watched them straighten right on schedule over the past 7 months.

And even though I have her at home and things seem so far (knock wood) to be falling into place, I am now dreaming that as soon as I sell this place, I will get a 3rd horse: this one lightly started so I can get back to riding and training.

War Admiral

Jun. 4, 2007, 09:48 AM

Agree with all that has been said. For me as a rider/amateur trainer of 40+ years and in the mode of putative purchaser, the key deterrents are:

1. Boarding costs.

2. My own lack of ability to assess what a foal is *going* to be. I'm tall and have very specific conformational needs. Others more experienced with young'uns *might* be able to assess whether a weanling would develop to what I need. I cannot.

3. Not comfortable w/ my level of experience w/ (especially) nutrition but also training for youngsters. My training experience has been limited to OTTBs, and while some stuff translates, other stuff obviously does not.

Wish I felt comfortable with it though...

Waterwitch

Jun. 4, 2007, 09:53 AM

I really don't think this is a matter of marketing. I believe that there is a very LIMITED market for young horse sales because there are a limited number of people who are capable of dealing with a youngster. I don't think that this market niche is going to grow, either. The demographics just aren't there.

I agree with this 100%. Selling a well bred youngster to someone who is not a capable horseman or at least has the daily supervision of a capable horseman is a disaster waiting to happen. Bad for the horse, bad for the breeder.

STF

Jun. 4, 2007, 10:07 AM

We have sold young horses (a year or under) but all went to trainers or other breeders. You do get some that come along wanting to find a cheaper alternative to buying a well bred mature horse, but once they really think about the 3 yrs they have to wait, some change their mind.

My breeding plan changed years ago. I breed a few a year and have it in my financial plan to keep them until they are 3. If they sell before then, great, if they dont, then I start them under saddle - and then they sell pretty quick afterwards.

The day I cant start horses under saddle myself, Im out of breeding!! That eats up WAY to much money to send them off and is counter productive unless I put a huge sales price on them.

I look at my foals as a savings account. I dont really plan to make a ton of money off of a sale, Im happy to get my money BACK I have in them and maybe a few $100 more to keep the IRS somewhat happy.

Janet

Jun. 4, 2007, 10:10 AM

From the point of view of a non-professional who has bought a number of young horses.

1- Buying a young horse is a gamble. Both in the sense of all the things that can go wrong (illness, injury, accident) before they are riding age, and in the sense of how they will turn out. Seeing the parents and siblings can help with the predictabilty, but even full siblings can turn out VERY differently. In particular, you can end up with a horse that is much better suited for a different discipline, sometimes because of temerament / attitude rather than conformation.

2 - Because it is such a gamble, you have to go into it prepared to either a) sell the horse if it is better in a different discipline- or just not as talented in the chosen discipline or b) adjust YOUR expectations/competitive career to the the horses strengths. Lots of amateurs are not really prepared to deal with either of those options.

3- Lots of people that COULD train a young horse don't know that they could, and haven't learned how. It is often said that "you ruin your first horse". While I think that is an overstatement, most people don't want to have their "learning experinence" on an investment project. I am very lucky that I had several young-horse-training projects "thrust upon me". So that when I WAS ready to buy my own young horse, I had already trained 2-3 other people's young horses. While I wouldn't say I "ruined" any of them, I definitely learned from the process, lessons I was able to apply to my own young horse.

4- If you have to pay board AND training fees for someone else to train the horse, the financial stakes are even higher, and the chances of ending up with the horse you envisioned are not that much greater.

Some people like to gamble, some people don't. I think the market for young horses is the people who WANT to gamble.

classicsporthorses

Jun. 4, 2007, 12:05 PM

We have been quite successful at it proably b/c we have a program where the new owner often keeps them with us for their foundation training-our Foal Kindergarten program. I also get in youngsters from folks who bought from other sellers and they are now overwhelmed with raising a young horse and don't know what to do.

We have buyers who are ammys as well as professionals and some just either have not had youngsters or don't want to deal with youngsters!

Personally, I love the younger years and know that it's damn hard work to put the foundation on them to make them solid citizens. I also work with older (adult) remediation(horses with issues), where their foundation skills and minds, as well as their bodies at times, have been royally screwed up!

Working to fix a broken horse is much harder then spending the time to do it right the first time.

I am brutally, but professionally, honest with potential buyers. I won't sell a youngster to a buyer unless the youngsters stays with us OR they are working with a qualified trainer who has worked with youngsters-and I speak with that trainer.

I have also raised some "keepers" from the ground up, including one of my stallions so potential buyers can see the progression of how hard work and consistency does pay of huge positive dividends.

A young horse is not for everyone.

denny

Jun. 4, 2007, 12:21 PM

charger

Jun. 4, 2007, 12:27 PM

The smartest thing we ever did for selling youngsters was establish a program where the foals can remain with us for the first 2 years of life at a more than reasonable rate. This way we can continue to control their nutrition and watch closely for any developmental issues that would need to be addressed. This program has definitely increased our ability to sell weanlings.

class

Jun. 4, 2007, 12:42 PM

right after i bought my foal, the judge i clinic with told me that she will never buy anything under 2 because she wants to be able to x-ray all the joints and see what she is getting.

flshgordon

Jun. 4, 2007, 12:43 PM

But that leads to another related question. Why, then, do people who won`t buy a baby breed one? Do you think it`s a different mindset at work?
Or are we dealing with an altogether different group of people?

Hmmmm....I will answer that one myself (the wouldn't buy a baby but bred one). I had my own mare who is very talented but sustained an injury making it all but impossible for her to have any kind of show career. I loved almost everything about her, especially her "try". So I found the "perfect" stallion for her and bred for her 'replacement'. I got exactly what I wanted and was ready to accept the "raising" costs for 3 years and the cost of getting her going under saddle. But I did that BECAUSE I knew the mare intimately. Having raised that baby who is now my wonderful 4yo mare who wins at shows and has a great temperament...I would do it again, but I still wouldn't buy a baby UNLESS it were from a mare that I had known well for a while and knew her idiosyncracies & abilities. Because like everyone says, they do pick up a lot from the mom in their first few months of life.

Oakstable

Jun. 4, 2007, 12:50 PM

I wouldn't try to convince a buyer to do anything.

There are lots of risks in buying young. The great moving foal may have some issues under saddle. Maybe the hind leg is not as quick as what is competitive down the line.

I know riders who will happily pay more for a horse they can sit on than to buy young.

Once a mare has a number of offspring out there doing something, it takes some of the risk away.

Equilibrium

Jun. 4, 2007, 12:57 PM

Agree with charger above. I'm not really a great person to comment but I breed and raise youngsters. My first warmblood was sold to a person who keeps him here with us. He was bought as a weanling and is now 2. I am a stickler on nutrition, feet being done, worming ect and have made a very good price all inclusive of the above bar vet work. He hasn't needed any vet work so no extras. We also start young horses all the time and this is an extra advantage. Now when their ready to go on to a professional rider and do their thing they will have all their bases covered. We are definitely not in the professional rider category. But I would much rather spend the time raising and pre training the babies.

I'm sure more people would be willing to buy young if they didn't have to worry about boarding situations. I also think if you have a youngster that's well related you have an easier sell. And by well related I mean what the dam has produced not who the stallion is.

As far as breeding a baby but not wanting to buy one. Don't know what the mind set is there. I would guess these people have land and are not in a boarding situation. Some would just like to make a little money on the side and I'm sure others have mares they've competed and would love to have a baby out of her. But really unless you have the right situation neither option is cost effective.

I only breed one warmblood a year and try to do best by each of them. I don't have to sell if I don't want to and this probably makes things easier. I do want to see my horses of competing and doing well so after their 3yo year, I do need to sell to someone who wants them to have a career. They wouldn't have much of a career with me in the saddle! We are keeping last year's filly and will have her competed for us when the time comes.

Terri

CAJumper

Jun. 4, 2007, 12:58 PM

I am probably restating a lot of what has already been said, but here are my answers to the original question:

1. The 'boarding out' factors, as was already mentioned - that adds up QUICKLY
2. Most adult ammies, the majority of our horse population, do not have the skill/experience/time to bring up a young horse correctly. I think this is due to more people boarding out at full service barns where they are not responsible for all of the day-to-day stuff. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that choice, but I do think it contributes to a decline in general horsemanship skills in the broader population.
3. Evaluating a two-year old takes skill and experience. It's pretty easy to hop on a 7 year old horse, ride it around, confirm was it can/cannot do, watch someone else ride it, etc. Most riders can quickly evaluate a horse that is going under saddle. But a youngster? Let's face it - most of them are not exactly easy on the eye, and it's hard for most people to look at a pedigree and a butt-high, awkward, long-legged baby and see the potential - AND have faith in their judgement (or that of their trainer).

That said, I have never bought a horse older than 5, and most of them are unbroke when I get them - I definitely prefer buying youngsters.

As to the second question about why people breed if they won't buy young - I do think it's an entirely different subset of people. I think these are the people who *would* buy youngsters, but for some reason decide to breed their own mares.

Hillside H Ranch

Jun. 4, 2007, 01:07 PM

mairzeadoats

Jun. 4, 2007, 01:13 PM

I realize the thing I failed to take into consideration is that so many people have to board out, which is a major stumbling block both in terms of money spent, and in the way that situation prevents the kind of close, hands on association you want with a youngster.
But that leads to another related question. Why, then, do people who won`t buy a baby breed one? Do you think it`s a different mindset at work?
Or are we dealing with an altogether different group of people?

I think you're dealing with a different group of people. The people I can think of who will breed but not buy a baby may have a mare that they really like, or they may want particular bloodlines and be able to do an onfarm lease of the mare and then board the foal at the breeding farm. They get the joy of watching a baby grow up with experts doing the foaling out, handling and early training. And they're either a lot more willing to gamble...or they don't truly understand the risks.

I ended up buying a youngster because my financial situation totally ended my original dream. Wasn't going to happen. So I way downsized my expectations and goals. I have a broad enough background to let the filly's talents and mind determine her discipline. And happily I knew my elderly gelding has experience and is a great weanling babysitter. He is my guide, usually sets a great example for the filly, and is a gentle and generous, yet firm herd leader. I don't have another young horse for her to play with, but my 2 1/2 year old lab cross has become her playmate. I've drummed it into his head that if she gets on a galloping rampage he absolutely is not to chase, period, end of discussion. The old gelding canters along with her and occasionally gives her a run for her money.

So for me, it's working out well so far, but it's not my first choice and I wouldn't recommend it for everybody. Her training may or may not be behind for her age, but I'm happy with the results. So far, a trusting, loving filly who has given up rearing, leads reasonably well, doesn't shoulder me off my feet nearly so often, and likes to come with me to the arena for our little training sessions.

Debbie

Jun. 4, 2007, 01:20 PM

I guess I'm an anomaly as an adult amatuer who boards who has bought two youngsters in the last 3 years. The first filly was 1.5 years when I bought her; I knew I would not be able to afford her when she was riding age, so I bit the bullet and went for it. The second was 2 when I bought her as a project coming along behind the first who had developed some health issues (since resolved).

As someone who has lived this for the last 3 years, I think it's a really heavy (and likely ill-advised) lift to sell young stock to the non-property owning AA. While I was fairly comfortable with my skills/knowledge in handling the young ones, I ran into some real difficulty with boarding barn staff. Nothing like getting a call that your horse is "a rude bully who bites." Perhaps, but really she's a young horse who has discovered she can push every one of your buttons and I can't fix problems I don't experience. The little stinker quickly figured out who she could pull what with and was a holy terror for some folks during much of her 2 year old year.

For me the solution was finding a pasture board situation where they are NOT routinely handled by anyone other than me.

I was going through some life changes (primarily getting married) that made the non-riding period fairly easy to weather. I did fill in with an investment OTTB that was a nice diversion, but basically I haven't set foot in a show ring for over 4 years.

After that long out of the saddle I didn't feel comfortable starting my now 4 year old, so training costs were added to the equation. All that said, now that I'm on the far side of it all, I have a horse I LOVE with talent/breeding I couldn't afford to buy outright, but I've certainly paid for it over time. On the plus side, I have a very close bond with both mares (the younger one is not yet under saddle) that comes from so much time with them prior to reaching riding age.

NOW, we're buying a farm (talk about doing things backwards) so I'd likely go the young horse route again, BUT I'm more likely to breed my own. I think that's where you lose some people who have their own property and an interest in and comfort with youngsters. They get into breeding their own.

I cruise horse ads as a hobby :cool: and most of the "bargains" I see are in the 1-2.5 years or so range. Weanlings seem to have pretty big price tag compared to 2 year olds. Seems like if you don't sell them as weanlings, you might as well hold onto them until they are under saddle when the price bumps up again.

For those of you who keep your sold weanlings for the buyers at a low board rate, I think that's a great service, but I'm not sure buyers who aren't capable of handling a yearling or two year old are any more capable of handling a 3 or 4 year old under saddle. I've seen AAs locally go that route and they simply aren't a good match for a young horse of any age.

Would that we could all afford the perfectly performing 7 year old! :D And that breeders could afford to keep them and train them to that age.

STF

Jun. 4, 2007, 01:21 PM

But that leads to another related question. Why, then, do people who won`t buy a baby breed one? Do you think it`s a different mindset at work?
Or are we dealing with an altogether different group of people?

I have not read everyone else response, but I think its several different things

1) Quick Turn thinking - they think they can breed and sell the foal right away and make a profit
2) Lack of pre financial planning - they go ahead and breed the mare, get the foal and then have the afterset shock of "OMG, this is expensive!"
3) They have a situation set up with a breeder who can handle the breeding and foal raising, etc, but later burn out becuase they realize its so expensive and time consuming

I dont think people realize the risks in this. It does not take a lot of brains to read all the depressing stories of loss and sadness in this indusrty. If people are looking for a turn, they are better off playing the stock market as your odds are better in the favor of at least breaking even. The chances of us foaling a foal, raising it till its 3, starting it under saddle, etc without one decent sized vet bill is about impossible. NOT saying it does nto happen, but every breeder here will agree with me that there is nothing more dangerous to itself than a weaning to a 3 yr old! A padded stall wont even help them some days!

Silver Bells

Jun. 4, 2007, 02:14 PM

I say YES to buying young, but I have made a promise to myself to wait until the foal is at least 6 months old and weaned. Watching them grow is very rewarding. :yes::yes::yes:

Canadian Starz

Jun. 4, 2007, 02:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronwoodFarm
I really don't think this is a matter of marketing. I believe that there is a very LIMITED market for young horse sales because there are a limited number of people who are capable of dealing with a youngster. I don't think that this market niche is going to grow, either. The demographics just aren't there.

Quote #2
I agree with this 100%. Selling a well bred youngster to someone who is not a capable horseman or at least has the daily supervision of a capable horseman is a disaster waiting to happen. Bad for the horse, bad for the breeder.

I so agree with the above 2 posters...:yes::yes:
Yes indeed :cool: selling to the one with the most bucks for the quality provided, sure makes being in this Business Financially enjoyable...:) However possibly due to my "Crusty Elder State of Mind", If I now sell off some of the most Promising Youngsters, I am VERY choosie to whom they are now sold.

okggo

Jun. 4, 2007, 04:26 PM

But that leads to another related question. Why, then, do people who won`t buy a baby breed one? Do you think it`s a different mindset at work?
Or are we dealing with an altogether different group of people?

I can try to answer this from my personal perspective. My show mare had a freak pasture accident and was rendered only breeding sound. Talking to my vet and other people, I decided to breed her. If I were to go that route again, I would breed my own, however this is largely based on the money and personal preference. Go on some of the Websites on this board alone and you see foals listed for 15-20k. A lot of people can't afford that on a horse going under saddle, let alone a foal. Also, how many of those people could really bring that foal up to its full potential? I have no need to buy a 15k foal with grand prix potential as realistically I'll never be a GP rider.

Jaegermonster

Jun. 4, 2007, 08:42 PM

I realize the thing I failed to take into consideration is that so many people have to board out, which is a major stumbling block both in terms of money spent, and in the way that situation prevents the kind of close, hands on association you want with a youngster.
But that leads to another related question. Why, then, do people who won`t buy a baby breed one? Do you think it`s a different mindset at work?
Or are we dealing with an altogether different group of people?

I think it is the same group, except:
a) you need a mare worth breeding, and most people I know wouldn't buy a mare unless it was Rox Dene "They hate mares". Whatever.
b) then your horse is semi out of commission for a good while, so your riding is curtailed
c) then you STILL have to pay board, only now on 2 horses,
d) most people are not able to properly handle/train a baby/young horse
e) then there is the delay/patience factor.

Personally, I bred because I wanted the horse that I couldn't afford. It has been an awesome experience raising a baby and very rewarding, I figure I am buying my dream horse on the installment plan hahaha (denny she's in my profile if you want to take a look :)

Granted, when I bred my mare to your stallion (Rep) some years ago, I was boarding and the mare was my only horse, but I had factored all those costs and inconveniences into the whole thing. Luckily when my filly was a month old I found our current farm and we moved out there when she was 3 months old. I left them boarded til weaning time, so it worked out ok.
But for most people it just really is not possible to have babies/young horses unless you have your own place or are very very wealthy and can afford the lessons etc for you to ride, plus the training and boarding costs of the baby etc etc etc.

I killed myself to handle the baby every day after work and before going hom and make sure I did it right, especially after we moved much farther away and had to refence and build a barn ourselves. For many people that is not possible.

Not to mention the time factor just to ride at all, many people have jobs and families, not to mention the upkeep and farm work on their place. For us, it's just my husband and I doing all the work around the property and the house, although I am the horsey one, and I do everything in the barn. Plus we both have full time jobs. Plus Ride.

And as someone else posted, babies are such a crapshoot. The whole box of chocolates thing. You never know what you are going to get.

I would do it again in a heartbeat, but it takes planning.

Many people also want to see promotional materials on the stallions they are considering (a photo packet, a cd, a video, something besides just a confo shot). They won't believe he's nice just because a breeder says so, they want to see for themselves and compare to their mare if they have one.

Jaegermonster

Jun. 4, 2007, 08:57 PM

camohn

Jun. 4, 2007, 09:07 PM

[QUOTE=Debbie;2477861]
I ran into some real difficulty with boarding barn staff. Nothing like getting a call that your horse is "a rude bully who bites." Perhaps, but really she's a young horse who has discovered she can push every one of your buttons and I can't fix problems I don't experience. The little stinker quickly figured out who she could pull what with and was a holy terror for some folks during much of her 2 year old year. than me.

I cruise horse ads as a hobby :cool: and most of the "bargains" I see are in the 1-2.5 years or so range. Weanlings seem to have pretty big price tag compared to 2 year olds. Seems like if you don't sell them as weanlings, you might as well hold onto them until they are under saddle when the price bumps up again.

For those of you who keep your sold weanlings for the buyers at a low board rate, I think that's a great service, but I'm not sure buyers who aren't capable of handling a yearling or two year old are any more capable of handling a 3 or 4 year old under saddle.
QUOTE]

These are all related issues to The Terrible Twos...mentally and physically. At 3 to 4 mos old babies look good. They DO sell on the cute factor and look conformationally balanced most of the time. They are an attractive package. By 7 months old they start to get ugly! And they stay there til they are at least 2 or 3. Longer if they are a slow to mature WB line! So yes.....the prices really don't go up much from weanling to 3 years old. They don't get any prettier and DO get uglier until the end there! My coming 3 YO was butt ugly from 2 to 3...is filling out now and looking better. And every one of mine has gone throught The Terrible Twos. Some are just more terrible than others! At 2 they magically decide it's time to try and climb the social ladder with horses and humans alike. The yearling that leads nicely and all turns into a pushy little monster who has "forgotten" all his/her manners.

Peggy

Jun. 4, 2007, 09:19 PM

Convince the right buyers to buy your young horses so their success convinces others to try. "Right" in this case is someone with the right combo of resources, ability and common sense to successfully raise the horse up and start him in competition. Avoid selling to someone in a hurry or who lacks competence (or the willingness to pay for help).

My dressage trainer did what others have suggested--offered to pasture board and work a bit with the young horses he sold. The fee for this included, IIRC, one lesson a week on one of his school horses (or presumably one of your own to haul in). Which brings up something that another poster addressed--it's hard to give up riding to raise one if you can only afford one. IMHO having access to a horse that you can actually ride (and even once your baby is u/s, one you can do a bit more with) does help to maintain sanity and keep you patient.

Some people should flat out not own a young horse.

Some background - I bought Star, on the advice of someone known to have an eye for young horses (both performance and that all-important mind), as a 2.5 y.o. I probably paid approximately what it cost his breeder (who had bred her mare with the idea of keeping the foal) to raise him to that point. I was able to start riding him about a month after he was started and have been involved with his training since; however, I've had consistent professional help (as in the horse has been in full training). Before this horse I worked with a few green (tho less green) horses--both one of my own and ones belonging to other people, so I had some experience. Still, I got help. Altho I didn't end up with a dressage horse, I have a lovely hunter-eq horse that can dabble in dressage (prob for the best, since my heart was in the jumping anyway). Three other horses were started at the same time as Star--to the best of my knowledge none of them has made it into a show ring and two of them are likely in backyards maybe not even being ridden. The other three were better bred, more expensive, and had more potential than Star. He probably had the best brain of the three as well as the most consistent training.

pwynnnorman

Jun. 5, 2007, 10:39 AM

...I know this is a common theme here, but has anyone found a strategy for convincing buyers to buy young that they would share? It`s maybe inherent in the American instant gratification syndrome to hate to wait for anything, and maybe it`s partly a function of not having many real young horse trainers out there, but I think lots of American buyers are missing great opportunities without even knowing what they`re missing. Any way to change that mentality, or are Americans too impatient or too "something" to get it?

Has anyone found a strategy for convincing buyers to buy young?

Well, actually, yes. Someone has. The racing industry, the AQHA industry, certain breeds...

Hate to torpedo a lot of great insights about wanting instant gratification and the financial burdens of boarding, but the fact is that there ARE people out there who DO buy babies in spite of those factors. And so, IMO, we have to qualify the question itself and, IMO, in doing so, the answer becomes obvious.

Has anyone in the sport horse industry found a strategy for convincing buyers to buy young?

The answer is no. There is no STRATEGY in the sport horse industry...and THAT is why it differs from the industries which DO get babies sold. Those industries have a coordinated strategy for creating a baby market. Whether it is the lead 'em and feed 'em circuit or pinhooking, those are "strategies" that work. But both require organization and support.

Lead 'em and feed 'em gives buyers something to do with their babies that will add value and/or attract prestige. Why doesn't that work in the sport horse industry? Good question. There are answers, but I don't want to get off track with that right now.

Pinhooking is based on data. Uh-oh, there we go again: database, database, database.

Y'see, we've got the ill luck to have fallen in love with a horse type that has been propped up not by business, but by ego. It's not that ego isn't invovled in lead 'em and feed 'em or in pinhooking, but when those things get babies sold consistently, it's because someone with a good head for business created a system to reward the consumer. Sport horses organizations, movers-and-shakers, etc., are not very consumer-oriented and so little thought (most less any "investment") is put to offering a product or service that will satisfy a need or fill a hole in the market.

Oldenburg Mom

Jun. 5, 2007, 11:03 AM

What's pinhooking?

camohn

Jun. 5, 2007, 11:12 AM

What's pinhooking?

Like the stock market: buy low/sell high......reselling for a profit after a farily short turnaround time.....a bit of turnout to grow and often start light training.

pwynnnorman

Jun. 5, 2007, 11:13 AM

I did a search to see if I could find someone saying it well and came up with this:

http://www.tottenwoodthoroughbreds.com/Practice%20Webs/Pinhooking.htm

Tamara in TN

Jun. 5, 2007, 11:15 AM

What's pinhooking?

buying yearlings based on pedigrees and reselling them as runners...
((((outside of the TB world it's called runnning a rescue :lol::lol::lol:))))

just kidding....pinhooking (penhooking) was the way to stand around a trailer load or pen of cattle or horses and buy the whole lot at one price before they were offered for public sale...

in my mind these guys are some of the last horsemen/stockmen left as they are soley in it for profit....they know what <x> animal is worth and generally if they have bid on it already have a buyer on the other side....

Tamara in TN

Dawn J-L

Jun. 5, 2007, 11:34 AM

I would like to add that if we want to develop a bigger market for selling sport horse youngsters we need to carefully consider how to expand that market without compromising the longevity of the ridden careers of these horses/ponies. Because developing value in youngstock to drive sales often involves pushing them in some manner --whether mental, physical, or both. The SH disciplines, unlike most other riding/driving disciplines, require a progressive athletic development of the horse that results in peak performance in their early teens rather than as 3-6 year olds. So how do we develop incentives for people to buy youngsters without creating an environment where too many youngsters are pushed to perform in some way that compromises their later athletic careers?

denny

Jun. 5, 2007, 11:57 AM

Allagash's mom

Jun. 5, 2007, 12:03 PM

if I had done a hong kong stock market, I'd have been better off financially than the three foals I breed and raised.

but I wouldn't have had the experiences nor everything else involved (hey, I call it 'fun') in starting all three under saddle and selling two in various stages of training :)

but I could NOT sell them for the life of me until they were under saddle. zero interest, unless I priced them insanely cheap (as in, less than the stud fee).

Oakstable

Jun. 5, 2007, 12:03 PM

camohn

Jun. 5, 2007, 12:11 PM

It just seems to me that as it now stands (mostly), the burden of expense and risk and work is borne almost entirely by the American sport horse breeder.
Maybe that`s the way it should/has to be, but it surely makes it tough on all but the very wealthy breeders who do it sort of for fun, or as a hobby.
Having to carry the in- foal mare for a year, then the foal for 3-4 years before having even some hope of financial relief makes the Hong Cong Stock Market seem like a sure bet, by comparison.

My hubby would agree! I figure by the time I account for breeding (vet) bills, feeding preggo mare, stud fee, feeding the beastie up until 3 years of age (any accidents aside that we hope the idjits don't do!) I figure I have about 6500 into a foal by the age of 3. Accounts for no bucks for my time....that's just cash out da window. So...must bite tongue when I get the emails about "why would I pay 6500 for a 3 YO just starting u/s when I can get an OTT for half that?". Grrrrrrr. Cuz that is only break even for me! Even if I do this for "fun" I prefer to not LOSE money in the process! I don't think "break even" is being greedy.....really I don't!!
This year is worse. Now I have 2K into vet bills and 0 for 3 on preggo mares. Karma is against me this year....

carolprudm

Jun. 5, 2007, 12:23 PM

So...must bite tongue when I get the emails about "why would I pay 6500 for a 3 YO just starting u/s when I can get an OTT for half that?".
LOL, and it's already broken

mairzeadoats

Jun. 5, 2007, 12:29 PM

Has anyone found a strategy for convincing buyers to buy young?

Well, actually, yes. Someone has. The racing industry, the AQHA industry, certain breeds...
.

That's a very good point. There is one sporthorse breeder I can think of who *has* come up with the strategy of, or maybe just cornered the market on, the "show foal." It seems wrapped largely around one of her stallions who consistently throws beautiful black and black-bay babies with gorgeous front ends that sell quickly and clean up in the baby classes.

2Dogs

Jun. 5, 2007, 12:47 PM

breed and feed? Is that what Pwynn was talking about? cleans up in the baby classes?

But then what? do they clean up in the performance classes too? Does it matter to people who buy these foals? I am curious.

What happens to those Quarter horses shown as babies? and how many TB youngsters make it past 4?

I really don't know - I SUSPECT the odds are not great for longetivity in sport for most of those lead and feed or pinhook horses. Pwynn?

I have bred one and bought two foals. Love the whole process.

Roisin

Jun. 5, 2007, 01:06 PM

My vet breeds Warmbloods and my observation is that she does not try terribly hard to sell them until they are 3 or 4 and started under saddle. She has her own farm and plenty of room to keep what she has on nice pasture. She also has a business partner who is terrific at ground work and starting the babies...and it's something she loves to do. It appears that it works out pretty well for them (and the horses).

I bought a weaner and have loved the experience (she is now 5yo), but suspect I am in the minority. Maybe breeders could find a way to co-op and establish places where the babes can live out and get started (a la my vet's system) without it costing a fortune and start the sales effort at 3 or 4?

vineyridge

Jun. 5, 2007, 01:14 PM

My personal experience

I "accidentally" bought two weanling TBs at the state ag school auction. They were both extremely cheap, and I went over and met them before the auction. They were May foals, and the auction was in November. They have the same sire, who I also met. Met my colt's dam, but did not meet the filly's dam. Pedigrees are decent, but not great for sport horses.

I've never had babies before, so this has been a real learning experience for me. The ag school had given them a really good start as foals, so they already knew most of what babies need to learn.

Fast forward eighteen months. They are now two. The little gelding colt is a pocket pony, which is exactly what he seemed to be as a weanling. His not-sister is an independent thinker, bold, and an alpha mare type. This also what she seemed to be as a weanling. They each seem to be nice movers, but I doubt if either is extremely talented in any discipline.

I have learned that the one thing I am not is a horse trainer. I have a friend with a long history of starting horses for other people, so when the time goes, they will go to her separately until they are good horse citizens. This summer, they are going off separately for a month of "charm school" each.

I have my own place to keep them, and I have a grumpy old babysitter gelding who has taught them horse herd manners. So the expense hasn't killed me yet. What will be expensive for me is when I will need to have them evaluated by a professional to see if they do have genuine talent at anything. And then the training to go with the evaluation. If they turn out to have no talent, my friend will do the training.

If I had had any sense, I'd have bought a four or five year that was already well started. In the long run, it would be cheaper and I'd be sure of getting what I need.

I see four problems from my experience:
1) ongoing cost with little benefit for the first many years
2) finding good horse starting trainers
3) finding talent evaluators
4) risk of not having "competitive" horses.

For most non-professional horse lovers, the benefits of very young horses do not outweigh the risk or the expense.

YankeeLawyer

Jun. 5, 2007, 01:40 PM

My hubby would agree! I figure by the time I account for breeding (vet) bills, feeding preggo mare, stud fee, feeding the beastie up until 3 years of age (any accidents aside that we hope the idjits don't do!) I figure I have about 6500 into a foal by the age of 3.

I am always amazed when I see numbers like this. I have more than that invested in a foal before it hits the ground, and care and feeding for 3 years is a lot higher as well.

pwynnnorman

Jun. 5, 2007, 01:44 PM

Well, folks, that's what I mean: your concern for what happens to youngsters sold through the strategies I implied is laudable, but not business-like. Indeed, you don't really KNOW that those babies don't last long. You just think they don't. Maybe some do, maybe some don't, but y'know what? The same can be said for 3-4 year old young hunters, event horses at any age, and thus, I suspect, dressage horses and jumpers, too. Before I drew the conclusion that yearling futurities or whatever shorten performance careers, I'd get some data from objective sources. If, that is, I were trying to develop a business model to enhance marketability in the industry. I wouldn't let my own sentiments interfere with researching a solution...

But, again, that's NOT the nature of the sport horse industry, is it?

And I do want to point out something else. I used the term "organizations" before, I think. In my mind, I wasn't just thinking about ones already existing. I was thinking about ones that DON'T exist or have failed to get off the ground. My favorite negative example is the "Performance Pony Alliance." My favorite positive example is the Foundation Quarter Horse Association.

I think we don't sell babies because we can't find a way to work together to create a market. I think working together around a specific, business-based goal is what various groups of AQHA breeders have had over the years AND what some European groups have as well. (Oh, and now I'll say a bit to make you really get mad at me: I suspect those groups are dominated by men who are able to put business before sentiment.)

Equilibrium

Jun. 5, 2007, 01:46 PM

That's a very good point. There is one sporthorse breeder I can think of who *has* come up with the strategy of, or maybe just cornered the market on, the "show foal." It seems wrapped largely around one of her stallions who consistently throws beautiful black and black-bay babies with gorgeous front ends that sell quickly and clean up in the baby classes.

As I'm in the racehorse business I can tell you there are two types of young horses. I call these sales horses and race horses and not both are in the same category. As a matter of fact most TB yearlings are coming in now off the good grass being worked and stabled for sales in July, August, and September. My racehorses on the other hand are out getting muddy, dirty, playing and enjoying good summer grass. I have always maintained that I want to breed racehorses and not a sales topper.

I'm assuming it's the same with sporthorses. You may get a good amount of money for your Devon winning yearling but will they still be around when the competeing starts? Believe you me, I'm not judging anyone, but how do these young horses that are stabled, fed more than enough hard food, and limited on their play actually do compared to the always out looking rough babies later on in life?

Terri

mairzeadoats

Jun. 5, 2007, 01:47 PM

breed and feed? Is that what Pwynn was talking about? cleans up in the baby classes?

But then what? do they clean up in the performance classes too? Does it matter to people who buy these foals? I am curious.

.

I'm not sure if baby classes is what Pwynn was talking about, but her post did make me think of the warmblood breeder. The foals of this stallion have mostly not yet made riding age, so how they make out in performance remains to be seen. There is sooo much that can go wrong between babyhood and adulthood, a beautiful front-end does not make an athlete, they have good temperaments but who knows how good handling their new owners can give or what kind of under saddle training they'll get. But she sells out that stallions weanlings most years.

okggo

Jun. 5, 2007, 01:58 PM

LOL, and it's already broken

That is quite a generalization there. My 6 y/o OTTB is sound as a tick, gorgeous, and has a great mind. Oh darn.

The money justifications work on both sides. Posts that indicate "it's cheaper to buy a weanling" are only true in some circumstances. In many cases people are breeding their own mare for a foal. So counting mare care should be minimal (i.e. breeding related) rather than adding up board, feed, etc. The way I see it, I had my mare anyway. I would have been paying board on her regardless of whether she was pregnant or not, so that was not an added cost. You have vet fees, stud fee, Fed Ex fees, and foaling out fees and that would be the cost, vs. buying a 15k weanling on the ground. So could be $1600 vs $15,000. And I agree, yes the mare may not take, may abort, bad things can and do happen, but you could also buy that 15k weanling and it break its leg the next day. That's life with horses, unfortunately.

I certainly am not opposed to buying a foal on the ground, but frankly the prices to me are laughable in some cases. If you charge 10k for a foal that may only be worth 2k b/c you had to feed the mare for a year, pay for some non routine vet bills, etc. and then wonder why it hasn't sold. Heck, any grade unbroke 3 y/o could be worth 25k if you price it based on the money it has sucked up. I definitely respect those that adhere to value based pricing. If it is worth it, wonderful, but go to dreamhorse.com and look at all the 10k and up weanlings/yearlings, no way they are all worth that.

pwynnnorman

Jun. 5, 2007, 02:14 PM

Terri, don't take this personally--I'm just using your statement as a springboard.

...will they still be around when the competeing starts?

Who CARES? It's SOLD!

Sell it for a decent price and you actually improve the likelihood that it will indeed "be around" to compliment your program. While there are abusers at every level of the industry, the fact is that if you can get someone to invest signficantly in a baby, they are more likely to protect that investment than not (by keeping it a professional barns, sending it to good trainers, making sure that it is being managed with its future in mind, etc., etc.).

Indeed, when someone makes a financial commitment like that, what is ALSO increased is the likelihood that that baby will find its niche in life and be successful. To leave it languishing in a field somewhere, of no use to anymore, much less the breeder, is a dumb thing to do with something you've paid good money for, right? Pricier babies have a better chance of becoming even pricier performers, no matter what industry they are in. Buyers are rarely all that stupid. How many do you think are out there who would throw money down the drain by letting a baby get used up to the point that it can't be sold for a profit or continue to do well as it ages?

I think we tend to let a few bad examples represent reality, when logic argues that that can't be the case.

camohn

Jun. 5, 2007, 02:18 PM

I am always amazed when I see numbers like this. I have more than that invested in a foal before it hits the ground, and care and feeding for 3 years is a lot higher as well.

We grow our own hay which helps tons. Of course no accounting for the sweat value there. I hate hay baling. It always seems to be 90 degrees, 99% humidity and we are trying to beat some impending thunderstorm. This year first cutting was a rare exception. It was 80, not humid and no impending storm so we could take our time getting it in. But.....three days out of the year (three cuttings) I spend doing something I hate (throwing hay bales) and that feeds the beasties for the coming year.....so can't REALLY complain. If we did not grow our hay it WOULD cost a lot more.

All in all I think we are probably middle ground for expenses. There are places more rural where it would cost less to raise a foal and places where the price of land and bales of hay are much more than here. My step daughter lives in Richmond VA and is getting married this summer. She and her finace were looking at homes to buy. A dinky 3 BR rancher on a small lot there costs about what we paid for this farm.

I do agree with the above posting that you can't take a foal with big medical expenses and tack em on to the price and expect to recoup them. That is just a "business risk". But as far as the day to day expenses of raising a healthy foal....if I have 3500 into a foal the day it hits the ground with just normal expenses and I want to sell it.....then yup. I better breed something that will be worth at least that. If it costs me 6500 to get a foal to being a 3 YO then it better be nicer than just a trail horse prospect because there are plenty of well broke trail horses in the paper here (stock horses and walkers) for sale for way less than 6500!

PMJ

Jun. 5, 2007, 02:21 PM

I am not a breeder but a consumer who has bought two of Rivervale Farm's horses a yearlings. One of the horses is turning 5 and is having an incredible year at Training and First Level Dressage this year. He's been High Score AA and High Score overall at 3 shows this year and then AA at an addtional show. i bought him for 8,500.00 as a yearling which did not include shipping to South Carolina. I did have someone start him for the first 60 days, but I've done all the training on him with the help and guidance of my trainer. I have my own farm so board is not an issue. There is no way I could afford a horse as nice as he is that had already been started or that is going were I to go out and look right now. This is the route we took and understood that there was a risk that something might happen before my horse was started.

I believe in the integrity of the breeders I work with. I believe in their breeding program. There is a portion of "luck" that goes into it because horses can get hurt, and can do silly things, but we are trying it again with my horse's full brother who is 2 this year. He's just as nice so far.

flshgordon

Jun. 5, 2007, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by camohn http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2480281#post2480281)
My hubby would agree! I figure by the time I account for breeding (vet) bills, feeding preggo mare, stud fee, feeding the beastie up until 3 years of age (any accidents aside that we hope the idjits don't do!) I figure I have about 6500 into a foal by the age of 3.

I am always amazed when I see numbers like this. I have more than that invested in a foal before it hits the ground, and care and feeding for 3 years is a lot higher as well.

No kidding YL!!!

I would not consider myself a breeder, just a "bred my own" type, but even I had wayyyyyyyyyy more than that in the baby by the age of 3. You could double that number and that still wouldn't include any vet costs or mare care or training!

pwynnnorman

Jun. 5, 2007, 02:28 PM

Hey, PMJ, I'm feeling a bit testy this afternoon, so I gotta ask you, since you paid a decent price for what sounds like a very nice youngster who is nicely living up to your expectations.

You said, "I believe in their breeding program."

Why?

What made you buy from them and not others? What convinced you that the baby would be worth it's price?

Help us understand this process, if you don't mind. I appreciate that you posted your experience because I think behind it might be something we can learn from.

carolprudm

Jun. 5, 2007, 02:30 PM

That is quite a generalization there. My 6 y/o OTTB is sound as a tick, gorgeous, and has a great mind. Oh darn.

While I don't like the term, some people do call a horse that is trained to be ridden "Broken"

Janet

Jun. 5, 2007, 02:32 PM

I think that, rather than asking "how to CONVINCE buyers to buy young?"

You should be asking "how to identify buyers who would like to buy young?" and "how to make things easier for the buyers who would like to buy young, but don't have their own facility?"

omuchacha

Jun. 5, 2007, 02:34 PM

You know, I'm in a different riding venue, but I've seen a group of breeders and competitors single handedly create a desire for people to want to buy young stock by working to create a futurity system and increase paybacks at regional and national competitions within the discipline. It's taken a few years, and it's taken a lot of work, but it's paying off in spades. The market for these horses (as youngsters) is now steady when before it was almost non-existent. People are seeing horses that are out showing and winning with places to go show and win and they're wanting to get in on the ground floor of the whole thing. More people are starting to ride in this discipline because they see what fun it can be, and that there's a possibility of paybacks at a regional level. The market for older horses has also increased, as those riders new to the discipline need "solid steady eddie types" to learn on while their younger horses are coming up through the ranks. It seems to be a win-win.

By creating a market where the older horses are incredibly desireable you've also ensured a market for the youngsters. Not everyone can afford to buy a more expensive, finished horse. Some of us realize it, and we're willing to take a gamble on buying a youngster from a proven, long-term breeding program known to produce horses known to be honest and competitive over the long haul. Sure, not every one will be a star, but by raising and promoting some horses through the competitive ranks, it's a pretty good incentive for me to want one of your babies versus one of someone else's. The longer your track record, the more consistent your results, and the more I feel my endeavors with that baby will be supported, the more likely I am to buy a baby from you even if maybe I'm not a "baby" person by nature.

(I'm living proof - I bought my last two horses as a yearling and a suckling respectively. I was convinced to buy the yearling by watching every foal from her dam grow up and compete successfully at the level and discipline I wanted to ride. That convinced me my odds were pretty good with her. The suckling was more of a whim, but the good experience with the yearling convinced me it could work out again. I also knew her dam and sire, and was pretty positive she'd end up with the good from both of them. If not, she's got some unique factors that make her marketable anyway.)

camohn

Jun. 5, 2007, 02:39 PM

camohn

Jun. 5, 2007, 02:49 PM

No kidding YL!!!

I would not consider myself a breeder, just a "bred my own" type, but even I had wayyyyyyyyyy more than that in the baby by the age of 3. You could double that number and that still wouldn't include any vet costs or mare care or training!

That 6500 for an unbroke coming 3 YO certianly does not include any trainer fees! Just feed (my home-grown hay/bought grain), trims and annual vaccinations that I give myself. Trainer fees would start escalating the price quickly. The point is that if some folks think what it costs me to raise Junior to 3 is such a bargain....it's just that much harder for folks to recoup their costs in areas with even higher costs of living and buying hay.

AND there is actually something that has not been taken into account when adding up the grain bill or stud/vet fees for raising Junior and that is the value of the mare. Now if it is a mare you own and ride anyway....there isn't really an "added" expense for that broodmare. But say you are breeding as a business. You bought that mare for the specific purpose of breeding babies. That mare was a retired successful show horse or imported premium mare that you paid say 20K for. The person breeding "professionally" can't really be expected to "donate" the cost of the mare to the production of that foal. If it is a good mare you have to expect some of that cost of buying the mare to be recouped in the sale of the foal as well.

Tiki

Jun. 5, 2007, 02:58 PM

Well, one way to get them sold young is to price them very low.

Foals are advertised from about $6500 to $12K or more. So sell for $4500.

Your choice is to sell them for less than you have invested when they are young or older. Well, I guess that's OK if you're doing it as a hobby for 1 foal a year and you don't really care if you make money or not, but for those of us doing this as a business, I don't think Uncle Sugar would take a very kind eye on this.

As to Denny's statement about it all being on the breeder until the horse is under saddle in this country, that's quite true!!!

In Europe they have a SYSTEM of breeding, raising, sales, training, riding and teaching.

Breeders breed. Then they either take them to sales, or the people who do raising come along and buy them, raise them up, start them and then sell them.

The Young Horse Trainers take them just started and bring them on to the Young Horse Classes, be they Young Dressage Horse, Young Jumper or Young Event Horse.

From there, and let's say we're talking about a really nice quality dressage youngster (and yes, many of us in this country are breeding really nice quality youngsters as well - you DON'T have to go to Europe) the next step in competition is Prix St. Georges. Then if you have a good horse that wins, the BREEDER gets money back!!!

And yes, the horses that do well on 'the line' as the hunter people call it can and do go on to win under saddle. Let's just take for example Cabana Boy by Contucci. He cleaned up at Devon in the Sport Horse Breeding (SHB) Classes as a youngster. He just won the East Coast Young Dressage Horse Selection Trial at Raleigh, NC with Chris Hickey. Chris has only ridden the horse for a month and he won with him. Sounds like a really good start. There are plenty of other horses who did well in SHB classes, who followed up with Young Dressage, or Young Jumper classes, who've gone on to win at Prix St. Georges. Iron Spring Farm's Sir Sinclair is a good example. There are LOTS more.

BUT, as Denny said, in this country it all falls on the breeder. In Europe the breeder gets to go to the show and watch the horse s/he bred win after selling it at a sale (HA! our 'sales' or auctions in this country are the bargain hunter's bargain basement - in Europe they're the place to go to get a really good horse) or selling it to a foal raiser, and then having it go on to a Young Horse Trainer. It may be 2 or 3 people down the line. They get the joy of watching the horse compete and win and they have the expense ONLY of breeding it and foaling it out.

Another thing about pricing. Everyone wants to buy a weanling (or a 3 or 4 year old) that can be guaranteed to be sound, have Olympic gaits and be able (in 10 years - GUARANTEED) to win at Grand Prix - AND they want to pay $2500 - $3500 for it (or less). Even with a really top quality foal I think the absolute most anyone in this country could get for it is somewhere between $15,000 and $25,000 - more like $15,000 - $18,000 and then only to the right person. In Europe the top quality foals easily go for $25,000 - $65,000 and the really exceptional foal for more.

Folks, I gotta tell ya - the absolute best bargain in the world is a top quality foal bred in the USA. There's no way in h e double hockey sticks that an American breeder could ever get the same price for a foal, or a youngster just ready to start/just started under saddle, that a European breeder/foal raiser/young horse trainer could get!!!!!!!!!

okggo

Jun. 5, 2007, 03:01 PM

While I don't like the term, some people do call a horse that is trained to be ridden "Broken"

Oops, misunderstood you. My fault, sorry. I thought you meant broken, as in lame.

"Everyone wants to buy a weanling (or a 3 or 4 year old) that can be guaranteed to be sound, have Olympic gaits and be able (in 10 years - GUARANTEED) to win at Grand Prix - AND they want to pay $2500 - $3500 for it (or less)." Really? Most people I know want a horse that will take them up the lower levels, and be a safe and sane mount (and yes, sound). I think most that get those OTTBs are ammys and thus can't fathom $15000 for a foal. If that 15-20k foal is truly Grand Prix potential, would you really want that ammy who only needs a 2k ottb to buy it anyway?

It sounds like there are two distinct markets. 1) the vast majority being the ammy who wants a pleasure horse to do some local and maybe some rated shows with and 2) the pro rider who needs a horse with GP potential. Problem is, most foals are priced for the smaller market (#2).

2Dogs

Jun. 5, 2007, 03:04 PM

Tamara in TN

Jun. 5, 2007, 03:06 PM

Has anyone found a strategy for convincing buyers to buy young?

Well, actually, yes. Someone has. The racing industry, the AQHA industry, certain breeds...
. Sport horses organizations, movers-and-shakers, etc., are not very consumer-oriented and so little thought (most less any "investment") is put to offering a product or service that will satisfy a need or fill a hole in the market.

I would note that the strong open sales markets are based mainly on the dollar amounts that the generations before them won...in cutters and reiners what is the LTE ? in AQHA you can't give a colt away if it is not an IF baby...in race horses...well that is what black type is for....start paying money out as a sport/breed/group and the money will return to you

Tamara in TN

camohn

Jun. 5, 2007, 03:25 PM

While the topic has detoured a bit OT onto the cost of raising a foal it really isn't off topic. It's a related topic. So here in cheapo land I have 6500 into by foal at it's 3rd b-day in grain/trims/vaccinations. I add in about 1,300 for the value of my slave labor hay at 3.75 a bale. Yeah...I know some places are a lot more than that! Another 1,600 in labor for the 3 years I cleaned the stall after Junior. (All assuming he has grown up boo boo and illness free). Say the dam was a middle of the road priced mare at 7,500. So I add in about 20% of the value of the mare to recoup HER purchase price....so another 1,500. SO....now I really have 10,900 in cash,labor and mare value into that foal. The foal is 3 and goes to the trainer for 90 days. We do have a guy good at starting young horses here. He is 1,000 a month. So....by the time the critter is green broke and 90 days u/s I have 14K into the kid. SO.....the original question gets back to "how can I sell this foal before I have gotten to the point I had to put 14 thousand dollars into it before someone will come try him/her under saddle.....or even more in places where the cost of rasing a foal is even more and we didn't touch on the cost of land and mortgages and tractors ever being part of the cost of raising this foal........"

I think it DOES come down to being able to offer some sort of cost effective method of pasture boarding foals or just targeting folks that have property of their own already. For someone to buy a foal even at a bargain preweaning special of say 5K and board it from weaning to 3 at a place where board is 400. a month they will have 17K into the foal by coming 3 NOT including any vet or farrier bills. It is going to be pretty tough to sell that idea to the person who does not have their own farm: you will have spent 17K plus vet and farrier on a horse you now have to send to the trainer and see if it turned out as you hoped If it was a really nice weanling you paid 11K for (and I think really except for a small market is will be hard to get over 11K for a weanling here) you have 23K into the foal at 3. For 17 to 23K they can go see some pretty nice horses as "unbroke 3 YOs" and not wait 3 years to see how the foal turned out. There is the point that buying babies is buying on the payment plan for folks that still don't have 17 to 23K in the pocket all at once.... but I think the number of folks willing to pay that 400 a month for 2.5 years is going to be pretty small. And as it was brought up....not all boarding farms have help competent at handling a young horse by a long shot. Most of the places I boarded and took lessons at the barn help was teenagers working in the barn to help work off the board on their own horse.

Tamara in TN

Jun. 5, 2007, 03:43 PM

the original question gets back to "how can I sell this foal before I have gotten to the point I had to put 14 thousand dollars into it before someone will come try him/her under saddle.....or even more in places where the cost of rasing a foal is even more and we didn't touch on the cost of land and mortgages and treactors ever being part of the cost of raising this foal........"

you can't....I can't.... no one can.... because we live in a free market economy....

think about the warmblood systems in europe over the past 50 years....
stallions maintained by the state,
inspections by the state,
approved foals purchased back by the state,
stallions sent to local close up breeding stations by the state,
feed for stallions bought by the state,
records kept by the state,
competitions held by the state :eek:

it has been a subsidised enterprise for decades....welfare if you like for horse breeders...and now outsiders see the WB's and pay pretty high prices for them at 3 yo auctions but even then if you took away the "help" of the state in past times the breeders would have nothing to show...just like here in the States....

Tamara in TN

Spike

Jun. 5, 2007, 04:07 PM

I agree with peoples who are saying to breed for the market, and we all know that 80% of the market is for the AA who just want to do some lower levels competitions for fun... But, who will intentionnally breed to sell UNDER their cost just to breed for the market... as the amateur dont want to spend a lot of money on a weanling, and a top quality foal who will sell, lets say between 12k and 20k WILL cost you the same amount to raise than an average foal who will sell for 5K.... logical breeders who dont want to go directly to bankrupty (spelling??:confused:) will tend to breed for the tiny 20% of the market who will buy for a reasonnable selling price (read: over the cost of the breeder...) Isnt the goal of any business? That said, we all know here that breeding wb's are not a business.... and more a sort of everyday sacrifice for our passion... :winkgrin:

Tiki

Jun. 5, 2007, 04:15 PM

Of course, once somebody buys one of these well-bred, well-raised, well-started foals for a higher price than they expected or hoped to pay, and sees how EASY it is to do the discipline it was bred for, rather than trying to force it into something it wasn't bred for, they always call back and say, "Now I know why s/he was so expensive - riding and trainiing and trailering and showing this horse is like wearing silk - it's soooooo smooth".

We just have to get them to take that first step.

vineyridge

Jun. 5, 2007, 05:44 PM

Hey Pwynn - cranky away, gets me thinking and responding.
I DO follow the hunter breeding winners best I can, so I am not going on instinct, trust me. However, I am a buyer, not a breeder (except for one). I buy a prospect for performance, so I look at the performance of the parents and their bloodlines. My horse sport of choice is H/J.

If I WAS a breeder, hunter market, and I wanted a business plan for selling FOALS, I would most likely breed the flavor du jour, buy pretty mares, regardless of lines or performance, and hope for "pretty" and "blingy" babies so people can hope to show them on the line OR just like the celebrity/bling factor. That certainly is one business model - it just isn't what I look for. And given what I have read, I must be in the minority, so I wouldn't count me as a typical client!

In the racing INDUSTRY, there are also two tracks. There are the "breed to race" people, many of whom are small timers; and then there are the "breed to sell" folks who breed solely for the purposes of the young horse sales. Those folks shift the risk to the buyers.

Now to me, breed to sell is a sort of pyramid game, much like emus or llamas. Babies aren't sold for their own qualities, but for the qualities of their parents or for one stunning fast workout on the track.

Here's an example:
A two year old filly set a world record at 41/2 furlongs this spring. She, although a "breed to race" foal was put in the spring 2 yo in training sale. She doesn't have a blue blood pedigree. She has one leg that isn't perfectly straight, but everyone knows about the leg straightening operations and techniques that "breed to sell" foals go through. She did not meet her reserve. She didn't get a bid over $300,000

Another filly, a two year with great conformation, no performance record but a very fast work for the buyers, and an impeccable pedigree went for 1.75 million.

If you were buying a horse to race, wouldn't you rather put your money in a world record holder than a prospect? Even if you were looking at breeding potential, the female families have to start with one stellar matriarch.

There was a horse, The Green Monkey, who sold last year at a two year olds in training sale for 16 million dollars. He had a rocket fast, maybe world record fast, work before the sale. He hasn't made it to the races yet, so he's not likely ever to return his sale price. Apparently the racing people have some sort of video evaluation of gait that can sort of predict how long a horse can keep up its full out gallop. The buzz when TGM was sold was that his speed was not the result of the kind of gait that would be efficient over a full race. That's one 16 milliion "breed to sell" to dud. And the breeder isn't supposed to care because s/he has gotten the risk shifted?

If you have a breed to sell market, it will distort breeding practices and prices for the breed to perform market.

Don't know why I felt the need to post this, but I did.

denny

Jun. 5, 2007, 06:23 PM

This definition of the word "pedigree" makes the most sense, to my way of thinking, than most any other I`ve heard.
PEDIGREE: " The present expectation of the future performance of the foal, based upon the past history of the performance of the sire and dam, and/ or, the success or lack thereof, of other foals by and/or out of that same stallion and mare"
So if we have a foal by Freight Train out of The West, to use the old saying, that`s a pretty crummy incentive to buy young.
But what if we have a yearling by Corrado out of a mare by Pilot, just to create an example?
Surely the incentives to buy young must be related to a growing sophistication on the part of US sport horse buyers regarding the correlation between pedigree and performance?
Or is that sophistication just not here yet?

2Dogs

Jun. 5, 2007, 06:24 PM

the latter -

denny

Jun. 5, 2007, 06:29 PM

Is that because we don`t have a database? Not to keep rubbing an old wound!

camohn

Jun. 5, 2007, 06:36 PM

The latter. Too many folks don't know and don't care what the pedigree is of the horse they are riding. The papers are stuffed in some drawer at home. If you ask a rider at a show what the breeding is of their horse....more often that not they have no idea. TWICE now horses I sold got sold on again without their papers. The new owners at some point at least heard from the person that sold them the horse that the horse came from me.....which I suppose is better than some breeders do! Both had questions about the parents and lo and behold were suprised the horse had PAPERS! (Or at least used to! So....are in the process of being reissued). Many of the horses listed on this year's Devon horse show results list have no pedigree listed. Folks either don't know or at least can't be bothered to write it on the entry form.
Added: But yes....for all those not interested in keeping track of performance bloodlines off the top of their heads (which are many folks that are not the breeders........) the database would help!

Silver Bells

Jun. 5, 2007, 06:54 PM

Folks, I gotta tell ya - the absolute best bargain in the world is a top quality foal bred in the USA!!!!!!!!!

I totally agree! :yes:

buschkn

Jun. 6, 2007, 02:37 AM

This hits home to me. I have been shopping for a colt to buy and birng home at weaning to grow up with my current baby. I AM interested in bloodlines, and since I do SJ, it is a very hereditary thing, and also the lines are pretty easy to trace and follow.

I have a baby now. He is doing well, I am confident I am not screwing him up (yet). I have my own farm. We even started to make our own hay this year thanks to my neighbor. I have always had green horses and have started horses myself.

I have been very committed to buying a nice jumper bred colt. But now I've started to think about it.

The horses I am looking at range from $8500-$15K+. Let's assume feed, farrier, vet bills average $100/month (CHEAP, just a nice round number). That's $1200/yr. Now we need to insure the little bugger, so that's another $1K/yr. So now say I am who I am and want to go slowly with the baby, so four years before I even have much of an inkling of what I have. That's $8800+ the purchase price, not including any training if I sent it out. So now, at the absolute cheapest, I am looking at a $20K 4yo.

Not sure what I'll do, but it's a lot to think about, and really I have the best possible scenario for an ammy to buy a baby.

pwynnnorman

Jun. 6, 2007, 06:37 AM

Now to me, breed to sell is a sort of pyramid game, much like emus or llamas. Babies aren't sold for their own qualities, but for the qualities of their parents or for one stunning fast workout on the track.

But that's the way it is in sport horses, too, for the most part. And even in racing, if the baby doesn't move straight, or moves like it's shoulders are bolted together, it's less likely to sell well, just like the sport horse baby. (I know there's a bit more to that, but I don't want to get sidetracked.) The only difference in sport horses is bling.

And, Tamara, your point about cutters and racers is what I meant before about needing data to sell babies.

Most of this discussion has indeed gone down the track of "too expensive to board it," etc., but again, that ignores OTHER DISCIPLINES who manage to convince people to buy babies. It's not too expensive for them, for some reason. Maybe because, as omuchacha mentioned, they are using those babies, enjoying them while they grow.

Creating a market isn't a novel idea, y'know. It just takes patience, willpower and cooperation.

denny

Jun. 6, 2007, 07:17 AM

Say there are 3 tb bay yearling colts in a field. They are all correct, they all look and move similarily.
You do not know their pedigrees, so you have no way to assess their worth.
Now someone hands you their pedigrees, and with that information, you can estimate that one is worth $15,000, one $50,000, and one 150,000.
All because pedigree is a strong predictor of future performance.
Now that same scenario could be true in the American sport horse world, maybe not to the extremes of racing stock, but enough to make breeding well bred foals a true business proposition, not a money losing hobby.
But unless the USEF has the guts and the will to make such a data base program a reality, the pedigree/performance correlation won`t be understood by any except knowledgeable breeders.
Our national federation is letting down the American breeder. Does anybody care?

ise@ssl

Jun. 6, 2007, 08:17 AM

Denny - I know I speak for myself and most sporthorse breeders I know that the data base is ABSOLUTELY necessary. But it's completely frustrating to know that the USEF does NOT listen.

The current system is a nightmare of #'s and paperwork. Horses that cross over disciplines end up with folders full of papers to document various #'s.

Horses in the current system - even when full documentation is provided - sometimes show up with missing information. This seems to be because the offices of the USEF etal are overloaded during this time of the year. They seem to be just too stupid to anticipate this and hire/train temps to do the data entry. There are way too many people at the tops of these organizations and their departments and not enough workers. Sort of an upside down pyramid.

As a breeder - it's so frustrating to know that horses I bred compete and I don't get credit. People do resell horses and American's seem to be OBSESSED with changing horses's name. That wouldn't matter if the system would catch the fact that the horse was already registered under a different name and not put this newly named horse in all over again - usually without complete information.

Naming Sires of the Year in any discpline would be helpful if it was VALID INFORMATION. The current rankings often have sires listed with only 1 offspring - as a long time breeder - that tells me NOTHING. That stallion might have many other horses competing but their owners might not have entered correct or complete information.

When members of the USEF/etal enter horses without complete documentation or falsify it - nothing happens to them.

I wrote to both the USDF and the USEF people who run the HID's. I told thim this is a huge ball of string and isn't working. Because my horses are owned by a corporation - I had to get #'s for that entity. USEF is at least a one time - USDF IS YEARLY....what a rip-off! For the USEF - they didn't send me some small card - no they send me this big cardboard certificate in a big envelope with big postage. What the He** do I need that for? Every member (corporate or individual) and every horse should be issued a credit card style card with a barcode for the membership or ID#. Additionally, 2 small "key ring" style cards with that information should be sent.

My dream is to go to the shows with just a key ring with those little rings on it. They can just scan it. Mobile scanners are not that expensive. Then the information on the horse would be verified with what's in the system.

Obtaining HID's would require copies of the registration papers - EVERY TIME A HORSE IS ENTERED OR TRANSFERRED FROM ONE OWNER TO ANOTHER. The USEF doesn't even require documentation of the pedigree of the horse - people can put in anything or leave out anything and still get a #.

Also why is the USEF our NGB running a Registry?? The PHR is issuing registratoin papers and running a completely seperate awards program AND has staff to handle it? WHY? These horses should just be entered into the system and have the same awards opportunities as other horses not in the PHR. I can't find anywhere in the duties of the NGB that they should run a horse registry that directly competes with existing registries that provide registraton papers. If you look - you can find a registry in this country for just about every breed of horse - even crossbreds. The money spent on the PHR - should go to the HID system.

FYI -
I've received NO RESPONSE from the two individuals I wrote to at the USDF or USEF.

fish

Jun. 6, 2007, 08:43 AM

Yes, I think people care about databases and pedigrees-- sometimes even without knowing it-- and that our NGB is failing us badly.
E.g., There have been a couple recent threads inquiring about stallions currently competing in H/J. Many of us went to the USEF site to look at the standings lists of horses accumulating points towards HOY in the hunter divisions. Guess what: GENDER isn't even indicated, so we had to go back to word of mouth, asking one another which horses on the lists were stallions (and what names they had shown under), which of last year's stallions were now geldings, etc. The success of a horse like Popeye K, whose show record has put him on magazine covers, etc., clearly indicates that people will take an interest in pedigree and shop accordingly-- IF they have the luxury of being able to learn about a horse without having to do a boatload of difficult detective work. Popeye's book is always full. People DO scour the country looking for his offspring and pay premiums for them. Meantime, nobody except those who've taken a special interest seem to know about other stallions competing very successfully because it takes a bundle of work-- and sometimes a bit of luck, too-- to find out who they are!

Looking at those standings lists about blew my mind: how tough would it be to add "s," "g," or "m" behind a horse's name? Apparently the USEF thinks that the only reason people look at those lists is to check points-- as if those points had no value beyond the awards themselves. It doesn't seem to occur to our NGB that people might be interested in breeding to stallions at or near the top of those lists, or that owners of offspring of such stallions (or mares) might want to use such verifiable information in their marketing, or that stallion owners might want to seek out mare's on those lists to inquire about E.T. possibilities, or that the existence of such a database might provide incentives for stallion and mare owners to campaign their horses in the interests of compiling performance records capable of boosting the value of their stock, etc., etc.

So, yes, Denny, I do care that our NGB is failing us-- and itself-- badly on the database front. What more can we do than keep asking and complaining (those of us who lack significant computer skills at least)?

P.S. My colt's Daddy is at the top of 2 of those lists-- it bothers me no end that he's not even listed as a stallion!!!

camohn

Jun. 6, 2007, 08:50 AM

Yes, I think the USEF needs to do that to help marketing in the long run. It will not help "immediately" but over the long haul making buyers more educated about what they are shopping for will help sell more horses here versus over the pond. Some folks will always shop in Europe for a variety of reasons....but one of the reasons is "ya know better what you are getting on the gamble" as track records (ie offspring performance) ARE much better documented so yup you have a better idea of what you are gambling on buying a foal.
FWIW the industries that do so well in selling foals do have their own issues...selling babies is just not one of them. For the huge stock horse lead em and feed em (AQHA/APHA) halter industry they sell babies well because that IS the horse's job. There IS no other job after that. Now some folks so breed horses for halter that go onto other riding jobs when they are old enough to ride.....but for the top halter horses it is really not a lot of them. They show for awhile and then are retired to breed more halter horses. When you look at halter stallion ads some will have show records for somthing other than standing around.......but not a lot. I find it kinda scary that I see ads on occasion for halter stallions that say "breed to the stallion you can RIDE" meaning his offspring can even be ridden. Imagine that!! It didn't used to be that way.....halter used to simply be soemthing you did with babies til they were old enough to ride. Now the breeding for muscle and mass has gotten so disporportionate to function that they often truly are not a horse that can be an athlete. It is an overtuffed olive on upright toothpicks. I think it is important to realize that that industry is so successful in showing horses on the line from weanlings on because now a days that is all they do....they start young since that is the end of the line for their job too. I don't think we will ever see the massive line showing for sporthorses like you do for the stock horses...even if it was promoted out the wazoo....because most sporthorses look really ugly until at least 3. Often hide behind the barn ugly. And even if folks wanted to feed up like fat little porkers it would be sooo bad for the WB issues of OCD and overfeeding. So......I don't think the halter model would work for sporthorses on a large scale. Then there are the TBs. Sadly for the race TBs when they have "potential" IS when most of them are at their most valuable. So the sale bred TBs are not "too expensive to board" when they are being prepped for an auction/sale. That is where they very well may bring their biggest pricetag. Then they head to the training barn. And many will not live up to thier "potential" if they don't make it to the track or make it and do not excell. THEN they are "too expensive to board" and end up on the CANTER pages.The race industry just has their problems on the other end. Still horses but totally different business models. So....I still keep coming back to the idea that selling young sporthorses will come down to awareness and affordability. Awareness can be had through advertising and yeah better data tracking is one piece of that puzzle for the "marketabitlity" when you are selling "Potential" just like the race foals. Nope...will never have the JC's type of info because there is not the kind of money to support it (not just the millions spent on foals but the whole surrounding betting industry that demands it).....but anything remoetely accurate on a smaller scale would sure help!! Even the JC had to advertise itself. For a while there the whole racing industry was in a big slump....track attendance was down, tracks were closing, smaller breeders going out of business. TOBA has worked hard to bring in new owners/breeders and the JC itself went on a big advertising campaign.
2)Then once the awareness is there you have to have an affordable way to keep the little buggers til riding age for the boarding stable set.....pasture board in with other foals for proper social skills and competenet handling followed by finding those folks that are good at starting youngsters properly. As noted......here that is ALL on the breeders. It would be nice to have better networking to maybe NOT have that be the case.

Janet

Jun. 6, 2007, 08:54 AM

This is going off on a tangent butObtaining HID's would require copies of the registration papers - EVERY TIME A HORSE IS ENTERED OR TRANSFERRED FROM ONE OWNER TO ANOTHER. The USEF doesn't even require documentation of the pedigree of the horse - people can put in anything or leave out anything and still get a #.
A LARGE number of horses competing in USEF disciplines DO NOT HAVE DOCUMENTATION OF PEDIGREE. In many cases, NOTHING is known (let alone documented) about the horse's pedigree.

Also why is the USEF our NGB running a Registry?? The PHR is issuing registratoin papers and running a completely seperate awards program AND has staff to handle it? WHY? These horses should just be entered into the system and have the same awards opportunities as other horses not in the PHR. I can't find anywhere in the duties of the NGB that they should run a horse registry that directly competes with existing registries that provide registraton papers. If you look - you can find a registry in this country for just about every breed of horse - even crossbreds. Are you serioulsy suggesting that I should go out and "find a registry" for an aged gelding, before I am allowed to compete?

I understand your frustration, but I think you are suggesting cutting off your nose to spite your face.

PineTreeFarm

Jun. 6, 2007, 09:24 AM

When members of the USEF/etal enter horses without complete documentation or falsify it - nothing happens to them.
EVERY TIME A HORSE IS ENTERED OR TRANSFERRED FROM ONE OWNER TO ANOTHER. The USEF doesn't even require documentation of the pedigree of the horse - people can put in anything or leave out anything and still get a #.
They seem to be just too stupid to anticipate ...
Also why is the USEF our NGB running a Registry?? The PHR is issuing registratoin papers and running a completely seperate awards program AND has staff to handle it? WHY? These horses should just be entered into the system and have the same FYI -
I've received NO RESPONSE from the two individuals I wrote to at the USDF or USEF.

If you know that someone is providing USEF with false info to record a horse well then tell USEF about it. Do you really know of a case where this happened?

PHR was started as a database for TB horses in Sport. It changed to include WB's and really all horses. It didn't work out the way it was intended but it was an attempt. (JMHO but it would have worked out much better if it stayed with the JC and only TB's were included, we would have a lot of info on the TB portion of the equation).

Sometimes the PHR is the only way to document a horse's performance and pedigree. So you can't have it both ways, say a horse must have papers to be USEF recorded and then offer no avenue to get papers.
The IJY has horses in their DB that are PHR recorded so it is accepted as
documentation.
The data used for the awards program is the same data that is used for the regular points system so I doubt there is much duplication of effort on
points tracking.
Would you prefer that OTTB's not have their pedigree info recorded?

If you want complete pedigree info before a horse is allowed to compete then you exclude a large percentage of horses.

When I've contacted a USEF commitee member I've aways gotten a response. Sometimes it took longer than I'd like but I did get an answer.
But maybe the difference is I haven't called them 'stupid' ( at least not in public).

I've never seen a buyer turn down a sale on a hunter/jumper that was showing successfully because there were no papers.

ise@ssl

Jun. 6, 2007, 09:25 AM

No - I don't feel any horse can or should be prevented from competing. But I stand very firm behind the concept that a horse with NO papers or NO proof of pedigree through DNA cross checking is a GRADE horse - PERIOD END FINISH. There is nothing wrong with using that title - when the pedigree is UNKNOWN - it's UNKNOWN. The horse gets a number but all the pedigree information is blank.

And as far as waking up the NGB - months ago I suggested we take out full page advertisements in not only trade magazines like COTH but in the USEF AND USDF AND USEA MAGAZINES stating - the industry must have ONE data base with ONE # PER HORSE for the USA to be competitive with the rest of the world. This is possible and not as costly as the USEF keeps representing (with absolutely no back up to their claims of cost).

The current system also facilitates FRAUD. Sellers can say just about anything about a horse to create a career and there is no reliable way to confirm or object to what they say.

I hate government intervention but I'm advocating the USDA go with the mandatory microchipping of all equines and tracking their travel. This will force the issue - probably give us a different set of problems but then forcing the USEF to DO THEIR JOB and document horses might happen.

denny

Jun. 6, 2007, 09:36 AM

Right now I`d bet the house that the primary thrust of USEF fund raising is to send US teams to the Pan Am Games, mainly riding foreign bred horses.
If this isn`t backwards thinking, what is?
Who on that board has the vision to realize that things need to be fundamentally changed?
We have gone round and round with this issue, literally for decades, to no avail.
Meanwhile countries like Germany, who do know how to correlate pedigree and performance, kick the snot out of us. So to speak!
At least the Germans can`t ride in the Pan Am Games.

camohn

Jun. 6, 2007, 09:48 AM

It would also be good if there were folks that were "young horse agents". We have established that most buyers do not know a lot about pedigrees and less can look at a yearling or 2 YO that is butt high and say "gee that is a nice prospect". The "agents" I know myself are really not out there to find the best horse for their client. The agents are reps for certain Euro breeders and will push a buyer to buy from Farm X. It would be good for a fee that the Young Horse Agent will look at various horses here in the US for a buyer. Being so big that may mean either they have a certain territory around them or are willing to be paid to go see final selections and intially go over confo pics/pedigrees/videos of prospects for a client.
A tough thing to assess are the interior qualities. In a halter horse ridability is worth nothing. It only has to look a certain way. Buy from a photo. End of story. In a race TB it's speed. Speed is very quantitative. Pedigree and relatives race records are most important. Confo is to a point. Certain confo flaws are not desireable...but really as long as it runs fast quite a bit can be overlooked there too. Unless it is horrid temperment is not an issue. In sporthorses trainabilty is a tough thing to predict...especially in young studs. If a stallion made it to the top of his game in most cases he had the trainability to get there...though a few come to mind as having a rep for being difficult. But, usually by the time the stallion has been competing long enough to get to the top if he is a PIA everyone knows it by then too.In marketing younger studs it is helpful for an "agent" to know breed traits of certain families. Yes, I know, not all horses live up to a sire's rep for better or for worse.....but when you are buying babies you are buying "potential". WHen you get to riding horse age you are looking at the horse in front of you. The subject here is babies. When looking at babies you ARE going a lot on what the pedigree is LIKELY to contribute. Certain bloodlines are known for tending to produce a "talented but pro ride" or "ammy friendly and tolerant". 2 studs come to mind the were the hottest thing since sliced bred when they went to stud. Their foals are now of under saddle age. No trainer I know wants em in their barn. Foals of 1 tend to have a wicked buck, foals of the other doing well on the line but are very hot yet opinionated u/s. Neither is very ammy friendly and the trainers don't enjoy it much either. Joe Schmo might not know the rep these younger stallions are getting for their offspring. Talent is only good if you can ride it!

Waterwitch

Jun. 6, 2007, 10:42 AM

I know this has been discussed before and gonged due to nobody wanting to pay more fees, but since our NGB is an utter FAILURE...instead of beating our heads against the wall for another 10 years, why not create a Sport Horse Owners and Breeders Association, find some sponsors/collect donations of time and expertise, and put together a group of people to GET IT DONE. Easy to say, hard to do, but it's one of those things where doing the same thing over and over (appealing to the USEF who should care but for some insane reason refuses to acknowledge the breeders who could put this country back on the world stage on American bred horses) is not getting a result so we have to do something different. If you want something done the right way, don't depend on the idiots.

I've seen offers to do the creative database work necessary on this very board...who are you, and would you be willing to work on this for little money, but the eternal thanks of an entire industry?

exvet

Jun. 6, 2007, 11:01 AM

If you know that someone is providing USEF with false info to record a horse well then tell USEF about it. Do you really know of a case where this happened?

I can't really speak to the rest of the thread but I can speak to this one point. For financial reasons I typically buy youngstock (weanlings to two year olds - or- breed for myself) and train, ride and show them. I do not sell as a business. I may sell an occasional horse in order to get it into a more compatible situation but other than that I am not in the business to produce to sell. However I am one who did provide false info to USDF and USEF in order for my daughter to show a horse at regionals last year. We were given an aged swedish gelding who came with passport and all his registration papers. We did not acquire him from the individual, however, who's name is on all of the paperwork. I did/do know the original owner who imported the horse 10 years ago but due to the timing of the "transaction" was unable to get her signature (she was actually traveling at the time) on any transfers/papers in order to get everything into my name and be able to enter the horse in time. The horse was given to us partly because my daughter's horse had died unexpectedly. So I called USEF and asked what to do. I WAS TOLD TO REGISTER THE HORSE WITH A NEW NAME. So I did. He was registered with a new prefix and as a grade, unknown pedigree. The horse, a swedish warmblood, stood stud until the age of 12, was gelded and imported here. He competed locally for a while and then was turned into a lesson horse. I don't think too many people really care about tracking his pedigree or for that matter how he did in competition with a 13 year old junior riding training/first level. Though as one who owns a 3 year old stallion I do understand the concern. I did what I had to do "to get the job done". It certainly didn't take an act of congress to register the "unknown" horse but it sure was going to take an act of congress to register and show a horse I legally owned under his "REAL" identity.

lizathenag

Jun. 6, 2007, 11:20 AM

I am a big fan of the American TB. Just about every horse I have owned (not all) have come off the track. I can see what they will look like when they are grown because they are. They don't care about traffic or jack hammers. I know their pedigrees back several hundred years. They cost less than $3000. I am content.

Tamara in TN

Jun. 6, 2007, 12:02 PM

And, Tamara, your point about cutters and racers is what I meant before about needing data to sell babies.
.

and in reining horse news today : Hollywood Dun It (rip)
just made the $5million dollar milestone for offsprings LTE winnings....owner
Colleen Mcquay says :

" The reason Dun it has been able to reach this milestone is becasue of the mare owners and the people who have shown his foals and for that we are grateful"

what ? cooperation on such a scale? who'd have thought it ??? :lol:

Tamara in TN

2Dogs

Jun. 6, 2007, 12:19 PM

and because of those GREAT prizes the AQHA give out to winners!!! Oh please let me have a horse that can go to (and win at) the World Congress before I die :) :)

ise@ssl

Jun. 6, 2007, 12:28 PM

Pinetree - I was involved with the PHR from day 1 - and registered lots of horses way back when as soon as they hit the ground - besides paying for the Oldenburg or Dutch or whatever papers. But what I bought into with the PHR - really never happened. And now it's morphed itself into a place for people to "register" horses and people use those PHR documents to say the horse is registered ..........

The NGB - USEF should NOT be running a registry - PERIOD. That's my opinion as a breeder. They can't even run their own programs or HID system correctly.

I believe the entire HID system should be outsourced and every horse should compete under ONE NUMBER FOR LIFE. Regardless if it's Dressage, Jumping, driving, endurance, reining.

And when you ask how do we know people don't put in correct information. Look at even horses of the year - the owner put the sire, dam, breed information and then put Breeder - UNKNOWN. How the He** does the system even accept that. If the owner has the papers - the BREEDERS NAME IS ON THEM. If they don't have the papers - they can't put all the other information for the horse BECAUSE THEY CAN'T PROVE IT'S TRUE.

Denny - I sometimes wonder if USEF members shouldn't pool money and just have a class action suit demanding a system that WORKS, has reliable information and provides documentation on horses - even if it just says - unknown. Right now horses can be in the system under different names. Don't believe it....try it. Just make up all a new name and enter one of your horses with IDENTICAL BREEDING INFORMATION - bingo!!! You will get another number. Unless Embryo Transfer produced two horses of the same breeding in the same year - then it's not possible to have two horses with identical information.

I believe Breeders should have the right to hold not only the USEF but OWNERS responsible for not putting in full information. If they own the horse and HAVE the papers - then they OBVIOUSLY just didn't put complete information down when they applied for the number.

A system to cross check data to "kick out" applications that are NOT TRUE OR CORRECT - is a simple computer programming step.

And AGAIN - the USEF WAS OFFERED THE same system that exists in Europe but TURNED IT DOWN over 10 years ago stating they wanted to build their own. THEY HAVEN'T - THEY HAVE FAILED MISERABLY and as Denny stated the Europeans know exactly which bloodlines produce for every discipline - use it to be the successful competitors they always are and we have to buy THEIR HORSES because we can't get the same information on US bred horses because our NGB won't make it happen.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

By the way - does anyone have access to documents that clearly state what the USEF is required to do under the mandate as NGB from the USOC??? I'd pay for this document.

Tiki

Jun. 6, 2007, 01:03 PM

I, too, find it inconceiveable that our NGB pays to support and ship our team on FOREIGN BRED AND BORN HORSES overseas to compete, AND a couple of years ago sponsored a seminar on how to buy horses in Europe!! Our NGB???

fish

Jun. 6, 2007, 01:12 PM

A lawsuit is an interesting idea. I do believe it was a legal suit that forced the AHSA to start enforcing its pony measurement rules with rigor. I believe that suit was based upon losses incurred when a pony's value was dramatically reduced upon discovery that the size indicated on its ASHA-issued measurement card was inaccurate.

Tiki

Jun. 6, 2007, 01:38 PM

Interesting, they just had a big to do in Europe about pony sized for pony competitions. For the first time they turned some honies away and wouldn't let them compete in some pretty big time competitions. Not sure if a lawsuit was involved or just angry parents stirred up by Astrid and all her posts on pony sizing.

imapepper

Jun. 6, 2007, 01:59 PM

Hmmmm....I will answer that one myself (the wouldn't buy a baby but bred one). I had my own mare who is very talented but sustained an injury making it all but impossible for her to have any kind of show career. I loved almost everything about her, especially her "try". So I found the "perfect" stallion for her and bred for her 'replacement'. I got exactly what I wanted and was ready to accept the "raising" costs for 3 years and the cost of getting her going under saddle. But I did that BECAUSE I knew the mare intimately. Having raised that baby who is now my wonderful 4yo mare who wins at shows and has a great temperament...I would do it again, but I still wouldn't buy a baby UNLESS it were from a mare that I had known well for a while and knew her idiosyncracies & abilities. Because like everyone says, they do pick up a lot from the mom in their first few months of life.

Exactly my thoughts also. I own a mare that I would love to duplicate exactly. In fact, finding a stallion that wouldn't change much would be the biggest thing ;) But I wouldn't buy a baby because for many of the reasons already listed. They are a gamble (injury or simply don't grow up suited for the job they were intended) and time consuming. I am not worried about ruining a 2-3 yr old since I have started quite a few under saddle but I am not as comfortable with putting ground manners on weanlings and certainly would not want my weanling board in the typical barn situation to get bad habits.

Tamara in TN

Jun. 6, 2007, 02:38 PM

and because of those GREAT prizes the AQHA give out to winners!!! Oh please let me have a horse that can go to (and win at) the World Congress before I die :) :)

and winning one good team roping can score you a Dodge truck :yes::yes:what do warmblood shows offer the winners ????

but we forget that the team roping is a jackpot plus "added money"....

Tamara in TN

omuchacha

Jun. 6, 2007, 02:58 PM

Sport horse breeders could, theoretically, do like those in my other discipline did. Those breeders with a stake banded together and formed an association to promote their discipline. They started taking out ads in publications, and used a (funny, interesting, fresh) marketing campaign to create a buzz around the horses they were breeding. They kept and showed some of the youngsters and showed people that their product was quality. They went out and got sponsorship (money and donations) for the futurity and paybacks they created at national and regional levels, and they invested time and money in making it work. Sure, it's taken time, but the entries are up at the shows. The market for the young horses and older horses is up too. More importantly? People are having FUN!!!

Tiki

Jun. 6, 2007, 03:20 PM

Well, we have started a Born in the USA awards program, but right now it is not available at every show. Some of us have chipped in quite a bit of money and good prize money is being handed out, but there never seems to be enough.

The North American Federation of Sport Horse Breeders also has a huge futurity for a Young Horse Championship held at DAD every year with very nice prize money, but not everyone can get to Devon.

The ISR/OLNA has just started a Young Horse Challenge that we hope will be very successful, but right now everything is a little 'too thin'.

At least there are some efforts and they are growing.

Silver Bells

Jun. 6, 2007, 03:37 PM

Karla

Jun. 6, 2007, 03:38 PM

"I know this is a common theme here, but has anyone found a strategy for convincing buyers to buy young that they would share?"

you could lie to them ;) and tell them it's like buying a horse on layaway, etc.

But frankly, having once believed that, and now having done it, I think it is probably way cheaper to buy the horse ready made. Once you add up board, vet, (Oh, babies have to learn about not going through fences? how to walk down hills?, that the water tank isn't for swimming? that it's a bad idea to piss off the alpha mare? etc.) training, ER visits for you, and the interest on the money you could be putting in the bank, it's much cheaper to lay out the money for an already made horse. Plus that way, you have the added benefit of knowing what their conformation will actually look like and most importantly, what their temperament and work ethic is.

Nope. Buying a baby is not the most economical way to do it.

Karla

Tiki

Jun. 6, 2007, 04:06 PM

Tiki... you and others should be commended for your tireless efforts!Thanks SB, but I didn't mean to imply that it was my idea per se. I'm one of the charter sponsors and a Platinum Sponsor, but the original idea belonged to, I think Ilona and Rachel Erlich, carried forward by Lori K and Melanie Sloyer at DAD I believe. I hope I've got the people and relations right, someone please correct me if I'm wrong!!! The people who thought this up should get most of the credit. I've been a sponsor from the beginning. I know that Maryanna Haymon has started a local BITUSA program in her area. My girlfriend and I are always looking for extra little BITUSA 'gifts/awards' to bring along too. Last year we saw a pair of shipping boots at a vendor's at a local show that we just HAD to have. They were covered with American flags. We got them and brought them to DAD. They were handed out to the high score winner along with all the other stuff they get. It was a FOAL who won! I think it would be a while before the little one grew into his new boots!! :lol:

ise@ssl

Jun. 6, 2007, 05:01 PM

Why should US breeders form another "association" to promote US bred sporthorses - when even existing breeders can't always find performance records on the horses we've bred because the USEF/etal systems are from the dark ages? We spend enough dough getting our numbers and making sure our horses are registered now - and get NOTHING in return.

Fish - that pony lawsuit is interesting. I too believe the current system the USEF has provides economic benefit to those horses that they list as top horses and to their sires and dams. But if the data base is completely flawed then the horses and their sires, dams, breeders who have actually achieved the top slots are NOT receiving the economic benefit they deserve.

Hmmmmmmmmm- maybe there is something here to work with. Where are our legal beagles

flshgordon

Jun. 6, 2007, 05:39 PM

We either fall into the category of breeding our own (so we are one less buyer for the breeders) or, we buy the green horse with the lesser pedigree, therby not being able to afford to buy a nice pedigree.

Aside from taking out a loan or a second mortgage, I don't see too many options for the middle class other than the ones mentioned...and that's ok, it's life. But this may be why some folks who appreciate a good pedigree don't buy from breeders. I know and respect how much it costs to get a foal on the ground, not to mention to just a yearling, so I would never expect to pay less than $6500 for a nice foal...it's just that I can't.

And yes, having a place to board a young horse is VERY important...I hope I can find a place that doesn't charge me $400/mo, but I'm not holding my breath.

This is a really good point....And no, I wouldn't expect to pay less than $6500 for a foal, maybe a bit more. It's the point where you get into $15K, $20k, $25K+ weanlings..... very few people can afford that price and I can't imagine anyone taking a chance on a 25K investment for something that *will* end up at the vet at least once before riding age :winkgrin:

I don't suppose that is really the topic at all, but yes, not everyone can afford to pay for that super-fancy pedigree that breeders are so proud of, they price it right out of the buyers' market.

Oldenburg Mom

Jun. 7, 2007, 07:11 AM

ise@ssl

Jun. 7, 2007, 07:25 AM

We are always willing to keep foals for a period of time on our farm after they are sold. In fact, we don't charge until after the foal is weaned - we do require the buyer to insure the foal with major/medical. We don't charge for trimming or worming. After the foal is weaned we charge $350 a month - that includes a small box stall for the foal, turn out on good fields, trimming, worming. Owner has to pay for vaccinations and any medical issues. We handle them daily, work them in hand in the arena. And we have taken payments from buyers who we thought SHOULD have a nice young horse but couldn't pay everything up front. We price the foals according to their quality and we also pay all the registration fees on the foals. We are in NJ so our boarding fees are probably a little higher than some other areas of the country.

There probably are foals worth big bucks but obviously they require buyers with the dough. But there are very high quality foals for sale at reasonable prices. More people should talk to breeders. If we don't have what someone is looking for we always refer to other breeders who we know have good quality foals and good care.

camohn

Jun. 7, 2007, 07:48 AM

I started to write about boarding yesterday... but after reading Pacificsolo's remark about $400 a month board, I have to speak up.

Almost every single breeder I've ever spoken to, worked with, or bought from, is willing to keep a baby on their farm, at a VERY reduced rate. I'm talking about 100-150-200 per month. You have to pay the farrier and vet, but you'd have to do that anyway.

Plus, most breeders are willing to schedule payments ... the foal just doesn't leave the farm until the bill is paid in full.

IMHO, if you WANT to buy a baby—a really NICE baby that's well bred—there's more than one way to accomplish it. The problem is making the choice!!! Now THAT's tough. :yes:

I think this depends a bit on the size of the breeder. We are a smallish farm. If that is the only option I have on selling a foal I will take it (otherwise it will still be here regardless!) but if I can get someone with property to take the foal off farm I am more willing to deal to that person because we are at the saturation point. 13 stalls and 13 horses. I did breed a couple of mares anyway this year hoping a couple would sell by weaning time next year as a couple are approaching riding age (though it didn't matter in the end as The Fertility Gods did not smile upon me this year anyway....sigh). Really though I should not be breeding anything til something sells right now. On the weaners we have sold pre weaning (and thankfully we really do sell some by weaning on occasion!) board is free til weaning and 150 a month for pasture board up to weaning of the next crop when I need the space for the next years foals.

Molly Malone

Jun. 7, 2007, 09:16 AM

It seems to me there is a missed opportunity here then. Part of what needs to happen is that breeders need to hook up with people who have space and time to 'bring up baby'. These places could be in different states.... for example one of my neighbors takes in babies (and horses) and pasture board is around $100 per month. The babies live in a herd, learn socialisation skills, get their feet and worming done, and are turned out on 120 acres of rolling hills, some of it quite rough, where they learn to use their feet and bodies. An excellent education.

Perhaps people like this could offer once a month video reports to the owners? Perhaps a list of prospective boarding farms could be made and circulated amongst breeders? Perhaps local COTHers could recommend places?

I know I am happy with my neighbor with my babies (and I'm neurotic) - I send them there for weaning and bring the mares back so I can moniter them during the end haul of their pregnancy. As I only have one baby this year, the herd socialisation skills are important to me (and if anyone has an 07 baby they'd like me to board as a yearling in 08, please pm me!) and I like my horses to live as horses with 24/7 turnout as much as posible.

Oldenburg Mom

Jun. 7, 2007, 10:02 AM

Yup, Molly. I think those are great ideas. In fact, I think in Germany they're called "Raisers" (is that right German folk?)

Tiki

Jun. 7, 2007, 10:44 AM

Yes, but usually the raisers buy the babies, raise them and sell them to young horse starters when they're ready to go. What you're proposing is still all on the breeders, AND most breeders have the space to raise them themselves. What this sounds like is a really, really good deal for those people wanting to buy a baby, but with no practical place to keep them, socialize them, or teach them to be good citizens. This is a good deal for 'baby buyers', not breeders!!

Oldenburg Mom

Jun. 7, 2007, 11:58 AM

Pacificsolo ... PM me. I might be able to help. ;)

Spike

Jun. 7, 2007, 01:15 PM

I am offering weanlings and yearlings boarding (pasture with shelter, grain, hay, feet done, dewormers and handling, clean and secure fences, heated water for winter, etc..) for less than 290$CDN and its been 3 months I advertise and NO (read ZERO) inquiries!

So two things one: either the babies owners is inexistant in Quebec, or either they DONT need/want a place to board their babies...

I agree we lack of specialized boarding places to raise the foals after their weaning (a showing/school barn is not always (rarely) a convenient place to rise young horses I agree)... but when you offer the service, nobody notice it.

So people who buy weanlings all have their own piece of land or they prefer to pay more and by at their regular boarding stable? because even if it hard to sell weanlings, a lot of us are still selling some, once in a while!!

Oldenburg Mom

Jun. 7, 2007, 01:59 PM

Janet

Jun. 7, 2007, 02:14 PM

Investment mentality.

If someone buys a mature (say 7 yo) horse for (say) $10 K, they are not usually comparing that investment plus 3 years expenses with the cost of an "equivalent" 10 yo with 3 years more competition/ training.

Very few of us can increase the value of a horse faster than we pay the expenses.

So most of us don't buy a mature horse with that financial model.

But, for some reason, most of us DO have that model in mind when we buy a horse that is not yet under saddle.

But it still remains true that MOST of us cannot increase the value of a baby faster than the expenses, either.

Somehow, you need to change the mindset so that people put more qualitative value on "owning" the baby, rather than thinking of it as an investment.

Janet

Jun. 7, 2007, 02:26 PM

I can tell you one of the reasons I bought my last two "babies". Land taxes.

I have 25 acres, and the difference in real estate taxes for "residential" vs. "agricultural use" is quite significant.

Just having my own horses doesn't qualify for agricultural use. The things that WOULD qualify are

- Boarding (I might be willing to deal with another horse, but I do NOT want to have to deal with an owner, especailly after reading the horror stories here.)

-Training (I want to keep my Amateur status, thank you all the same)

- Teaching lessons (same)

- Breeding and selling (not ready for that - too much risk, and don't have a mare I want to breed- both mine are still working)

- Buying and selling (Possible)

The criteria for "buying and selling" to qualify is that I need to make a gross profit (selling price - purchase price, without considering expenses) of $3000 every 3 years.

Given that I already know that I enjoy working with young horses, and that I can produce a reasonably well trained 4 yo, buying young, and selling when started, seemed the most attractive option for keeping the land in agricultural use.

It doesn't matter to me if I make a profit in real terms, as long as I don't lose more than the tax savings. And even if I DO lose a bit more than the tax savings, it is still worth it because I enjoy it.

I am certainly not making a profit on my other horses!

camohn

Jun. 7, 2007, 06:34 PM

Well I think Janet is right in that there is a difference in the mentality in owning a baby and a riding horse. To me the thing is that if you are riding the horse you don't mind assuming the cost of the upkeep. It's what you pay for doing a sport you enjoy. Like if you enjoy sailing you have marina and slip fees to pay, maintenance fees on the boat, fuel if it's not a sailboat etc. With a baby while I do enjoy playing with the kids there really are limits of what happens the first 3 years unless you are showing on the line. You brush them, pat them on the head, lead them a bit maybe occasionally get them on a trailer...and that's it. It IS a very different relationship from one with your working horse. So, your young horse buyer IS going to look at it as an investment up until the time they can use the horse for their intended purpose (hunters, jumpers, dressage etc). A few folks will buy babies just because they like raising babies....but I doubt it's most folks. If they are going to buy a baby it is risking that the baby will not turn out to be that hunter mover that matured to just the size they wanted. If they wanted to spend the same amount to raise a foal up to 3 or 4 years old as they would spend to buy that horse when it gets to be 3 or 4 years old there just really isn't much incentive for them to take that risk versus seeing how that foal REALLY matured to except for the fact that it is putting their horse on "the payment plan" and spreads the 14 to 20K out over several years instead of being on the lump sum payment plan.

denny

Jun. 7, 2007, 07:11 PM

camohn

Jun. 7, 2007, 08:04 PM

This is a theory only. I believe that there are SOME broodmares who consistently produce superior babies.
Ditto for stallions.
So if we want a broke 5 year old son/daughter of a really good stallion, out of a really good mare, probably most of us can`t afford him/her.
Because really good jumpers and dressage horses are starting to be worth serious big bucks, 50,000 and up. Sometimes way up.
So if I buy a weanling or yrlg.for 10 or 15, and spend 3,000 a year for 4 years, I have maybe 27,000 in that now 5 year old.
But that`s where the GAMBLE comes into play.
Maybe I have a crooked legged, chronically unsound horse who can`t jump a stick. I have blown 27,000, not such an appealing prospect.
But I MIGHT have a serious, big time athlete, worth 6 figures, or about to be worth that, because quite often, granted not always, but quite often, PEDIGREE CORRELATES WITH ATHLETIC ELITISM.
So I am not talking about buying young, for the sake of buying young, but I AM talking about the willingness to gamble when the pedigree is right, the youngster looks great, and the breeder is a reputable person.
We have American and Canadian breeders, right now, who are breeding those kinds of foals. Yes, it`s a gamble. But I personally can`t think of any other way to afford the kinds of horses that are the elite athletes.
Can any of you?
Sure, it isn`t cheap,and it`s a big risk, but tell me how else to compete for the top horses against the people who can write a check for, let`s say, $250,000.?
Because that`s A CHEAP TOP HORSE THESE DAYS.

I think that is a pretty fair assessment.The middle part "the great looking youngster" is really the hard part for a lot of folks that are not used to looking at babies since they can look durn ugly from about 7 mos to 3 years old. This is where breeders really need good pics and videos of their foals at 3 to 4 mos old to show folks later when they are iin Da Uglies!
Stallions are a bit easier to tell what they consistently throw since they have more volume to look at. Mares are tougher though yes...certain bloodlines are very prepotent. In TBs you can spot a Bold Ruler a mile away to this day. Yup...it's often 5 generations down the pike...but they usually have certain prepotent look to this day.I have 3 mares that all had 3 foals. One every foal looks like the sire with her head. One the babies are 3 little mini me-s of herself and the third the babies were all over the place for type. When you are looking at mares w/ mulitple foals it gets easier to safely guess what she will produce.
Folks with big bucks don't have to gamble......the rest of us do!!
Back aways there was a thread about "how did you get into breeding" and for a lot of folks the answer was "couldn't afford what I wanted to buy".

YankeeLawyer

Jun. 7, 2007, 08:12 PM

Denny, I agree. But I also think you have more options because, er, well, you ride a little better than most ; ).

siegi b.

Jun. 7, 2007, 08:24 PM

camohn

Jun. 7, 2007, 08:59 PM

2Dogs

Jun. 7, 2007, 09:15 PM

well I volunteer myself as an experiment. Tried and true hunter rider - with mom, we have over 100 years in the horse world. I bred one, given I had a mare I love, best ride in my life, who broke her coffin, never sound again. Then, having loved that baby experience, I have bought two. One with bloodlines I KNOW will give me either a hunter or a jumper, knock on wood. The second, more risky, new stallion, one I have seen and admired a lot. First foal crop.

sooooo, there are people like me out there! That said, I endorse so much of what has been said here. I am NOT a farm owner, I work full time, I am a horse addict and I want to bring up horses that I want to ride. I hope to keep one to two. I think it can be done and at the end of the day, I will have saved money if I get the kind of horse I think I can from this process.

so stay tuned!

coriander

Jun. 7, 2007, 10:07 PM

YankeeLawyer

Jun. 8, 2007, 12:06 AM

As camohn, already said YES. That's it exactly. If those risks were reduced that way you'd see far MORE people willing to buy American bred. The question is, how do we get that done?

For starters, that requires breeding the best to the best. Usually that can't be done without some significant investment in quality mares. Sure, occasionally you might get lucky and find a super producer for a very reasonable price, but generally I think top mares are not inexpensive, which can be a big obstacle to breeders.

2Dogs

Jun. 8, 2007, 12:27 AM

YL - I will not confess how much my SHOW mare cost, but then she became, via a pature accident, no longer usuable in that context. Now she is a broodmare and as to value, well, reasonable. I suspect, but I don't know, that there are GREAT mares out there who for reasons like my own mare's accident, cannot show. I would love to know how to reach out to the folks who may just farm these gals out in permanent retirement as breeding is not anything they would consider - because it isn't what they do.

I could be crazy, maybe there aren't these mares out there, but oh, how I would love to know that. My trainers of yore have many a mare who is not showing for reasons unrelated to conformational issues, but to breed her? Yoiks, they don't have the capacity for that.

Darn - I want a mare network, create a website for them - even ET these show mares.

szipi

Jun. 8, 2007, 06:49 AM

This is a double edge sword:

On one hand when people have money, understandably they want a horse who is already proven in performance. They just want to eliminate the risk of not getting the temperament/rideability/soundness which are unknown in a young horse and also the extra time to bring up a youngster is a risk factor.

On the other hand most people should not even own young horses - because they are simply not equipped to deal with them. Even if they realize the lack of their knowledge and they chose to send the youngster to a good pro (and the pro, in reality, turns out to be good), the cost of board/training is usually prohibitive.

www.prairiepinesfarm.com

Leena

Jun. 8, 2007, 09:16 AM

I agree, there is people that are very good at raising young horses; that there is some good mares that we should find a link to it so buyers would have a real access to quality.

It takes at my opinion a very good knowledge to raise and back a horse the right way, to keep him away from potential injuries (physical and mental).

As some mentionned, sometimes you have that special horse in your backyard but money to bring it to show, to bring it to high level competitor is just not there. Money and health if I could speak for myself.

vineyridge

Jun. 8, 2007, 02:55 PM

camohn - at the risk of sounding like a broken record..... One of the main reasons I'm breeding European warmbloods is because there is so much information available on the different bloodlines. It definitely takes SOME of the risk out of breeding because the results are more predictable. When you study the bloodlines it becomes pretty apparent which marelines are consistent producers and that's what you end up trying to get. On the stallion side there are many statistics that speak to reliability factors of producing jumping/dressage capabilities in their offspring, so again, the risks are somewhat diminshed.

There is a reason why folks in this country want more tracking of their horses, i. e. single ID, complete pedigree info, competition records. Wouldn't it be nice if we could reduce some of the risks associated with breeding/buying young horses because of historical information that is based on facts?

If what you say about the European emphasis on the damlines is true, why does all the WB breeding info for performance horses list sire and damsire. Most of the time, the dam's name isn't even mentioned, and the female family might as well be non-existent.

At least with TB's you get sire, dam, damsire. Then you CAN find the female family information right online.

And as to performance tested show mares turned into broodmares, I'd venture to say that's an even riskier gamble than buying a foal with performance tested siblings. Think of all the great mares who never reproduced themselves--Touch of Class, Rox Dene, and almost all of the really great thoroughbred race mares like Winning Colors and Genuine Risk (Ky Derby winner). Tesio, the great Italian TB breeder thought that extremely high performing mares didn't produce similar stellar performers. He preferred using siblings, if I remember correctly.

fish

Jun. 8, 2007, 03:05 PM

If what you say about the European emphasis on the damlines is true, why does all the WB breeding info for performance horses list sire and damsire. Most of the time, the dam's name isn't even mentioned, and the female family might as well be non-existent.

At least with TB's you get sire, dam, damsire. Then you CAN find the female family information right online.

The Holstein Verband always includes and places much importance upon stamm/mareline. I understand that stamm/mareline number is provided with every pedigree, and lists of the produce of the various stamms are readily available.

vineyridge

Jun. 8, 2007, 03:13 PM

The Holstein Verband always includes and places much importance upon stamm/mareline. I understand that stamm/mareline number is provided with every pedigree, and lists of the produce of the various stamms are readily available.

I was aware of the Holsteiner emphasis on mare lines, and that may be common across the WB world. But when you see breeding information in publications on almost all WBs, it's always sire and damsire. It wouldn't take much more space to add the dam's name.

Aren't the two most important lines in a horse's pedigree the tail male and tail female?

ThirdCharm

Jun. 8, 2007, 04:08 PM

Tesio also thought that artificial insemination led to inferior offspring....

ANYHOO....
Obviously it can be done, go to any big hunter show and watch the line classes. Someone is paying big bucks for those babies and then paying big bucks for the "name" handlers to get them 'fitted up' and shown. Hopefully the FEH and YEH competitions will appeal to that demographic. I think we need bigger hats and more alcohol involved, though.

Jennifer

siegi b.

Jun. 8, 2007, 04:15 PM

There are different ways of expressing dam lines....

With European warmbloods it has become a standard to list horses with their sire and damsire information. Part of it, I'm sure, has something to do with lack of space in magazines, entry lists, etc. However, when you start to scratch the surface just a little, lots of mareline info becomes available.

With Dutch warmbloods for example, you will find references to unbroken Ster or Keur or Preferent dam lines, with the Friesian breeders insisting on 3 or 4 continuous Ster predicates for the damline before they will even consider a colt for approval.

Trakehner breeders have always put heavy emphasis on their mare lines which is evidenced by language on registration papers, i. e. "Linie der Kasette".

I happen to have a 5-year old mare that goes back to the pretty well-known "Bria" lines... her dam is Colimbria, a full sister to Olympic Barbria, so naming conventions also sometimes hold the key to successful damlines.

tom

Jun. 8, 2007, 07:47 PM

I don't think it is possible to convince people to buy youngsters if they have their minds set on older horses. The youngsters have to sell themselves.

Case in point.

A couple of weeks ago I helped a US family find a 1*/2* international horse in Ireland for their teenage daughter who trains with a member of the US Olympic eventing team and is competing at 1* level. They came to Ireland looking specifically for a 6-8-year-old horse.

I found for them a very nice horse. During the course of the visit I showed them my youngsters -- foals and two yearlings that are eventing types. They ended up buying 50% of two of the yearling colts and will be bringing them to the USA in September. One is a definite stallion prospect.

Before they saw my yearlings I'd say there was a 0% chance in their minds that they'd buy horses that young. But these two colts sold themselves with their athleticsm, movement, and loose-jumping technique.

I think that is the only way for it to happen.

Farrier's Daughter

Jun. 8, 2007, 09:21 PM

I think this discussion involves two types of young horses: the ones you can start riding today, and the ones you can't begin riding.

What is our target market as breeders?

Statistically, the typical buyer in this country is an amateur rider, is female, is in her 30-50's, and has disposable income. Most people board their horses.

What does that potential buyer want? Usually, they want a horse with beautiful conformation and unlimited potential. This buyer needs a safe horse as well; they can't afford to get hurt. They want to ride and show their new horse right away. But an amateur rider does not usually have the courage or the personal skills to bring a young horse along. They require help, usually from a trainer who may have their own horse they want to sell them. A young horse needs confidence from the rider as they have new experiences; many of these potential buyers have been used to gaining confidence FROM their horse, not giving it TO a horse.

Why would this buyer want to buy a young horse who cannot be ridden easily for months or years? What can we as breeders do to make that young horse more desirable? I think bringing along a young horse with the right temperament is critical. This involves the right bloodlines, the right broodmare, and the right foundation and handling from the breeder.

Note: Most buyers are not informed or especially interested in bloodlines; and I don't think they care. They have the WYSIWYG mindset--it's what they see now, not what that horse will become.

Obviously, affordable boarding is critical for the young horse until they are ready to be ridden. However, that youngster still needs ongoing handling and training. This buyer may not have that experience. They'll need help from an experienced young horse handler. I don't think this arrangement is readily available for most potential buyers.

We try to breed horses that are conformationally attractive, athletic, good movers, and most of all have kind, easy-going temperaments. Like Tom, we find good young horses sell themselves.

mbj

Dec. 27, 2007, 10:38 AM

I haven't read all the posts, just first few pages.
Couple points someone else may have made ...
Yes, Futurity and hyped auction horses by stallion du jour may sell well. But honestly, breeding to race often seems to produce better actual racehorses, and alot of Futurity babies are unsound young.
The deep dark truth is that a ton of horses become meat. Alot of Quarterhorses and US TB's for sure. And all those babies churned out by sporthorse breeders in Europe must go somewhere-- are there really riding homes for them all year after year, or is there some serious culling going on that ends up with junior in a dish?

Niche marketing probably works as well as anything. There is a market for a few top horses who look great and are from popular parents. Their buyers can afford to pay for their dream.

The rest? The average nice baby? Not so much. Not fair, not nice, but true.

Tamara in TN

Dec. 27, 2007, 11:18 AM

It`s maybe inherent in the American instant gratification syndrome to hate to wait for anything, and maybe it`s partly a function of not having many real young horse trainers out there, but I think lots of American buyers are missing great opportunities without even knowing what they`re missing.
Any way to change that mentality, or are Americans too impatient or too "something" to get it?

I think in horse sports where there is an actual payout for keeping youngstock, then investors don't mind the bills even associated with full board...

but the key word there is investor...not breeder wannabe and not quick flipper and not the five year horseman who wanders into something else five years later...they have the cash outlay and don't mind it being tied into something that could fall over dead in the morning...

show the profit possible after 36 mos of full board (@600/mo)
($21,600) on a certain animal and then you may have a better shot at it when they are babies....

Tamara in TN

Tiki

Dec. 27, 2007, 12:27 PM

I think this still goes back to our 'dear friends' at USEF. We need desperately a relatively tamper proof horse id system!!! I had a horse up for sale recently. Went to the trainer's barn for a trial at their place and shipped her to a show to try her in that venue. She already had her Brand New Name Tag (with a brand new name) on her stall when she arrived for the trial. They wanted me to nominate her for the Young Jumper's Program under her new name. They hadn't even bought her yet and they'd already changed her name!!!

If all the horses were chip ID'ed, they could change the names all they wanted to - as show names - but the pedigree documentation (or grade horse) would always be there. Even grade horses would be permanently identified. As it stands right now, a buyer can take a registered, branded, pedigreed horse with papers, fully lifetime registered with USEF, and reregister it as a grade horse with any name they want. They can win up to Grand Prix Hunter) with it, sell it on to an amateur who will change its name again, reregister it and show it in 1st Year Greens. That's fraud, that's despicable, that's outrageous, that's......, that's ....... Fill in your own adjectives!!! That's our NGB :mad::no::(:confused:

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 27, 2007, 12:43 PM

As it stands right now, a buyer can take a registered, branded, pedigreed horse with papers, fully lifetime registered with USEF, and reregister it as a grade horse with any name they want. They can win up to Grand Prix Hunter) with it, sell it on to an amateur who will change its name again, reregister it and show it in 1st Year Greens. That's fraud, that's despicable, that's outrageous, that's......, that's ....... Fill in your own adjectives!!! That's our NGB :mad::no::(:confused:

That is the reason it is so hard for us to get that database. The big name trainers WANT to be able to continue doing that, and as long as they are in bed with the NGB, we are just crying in the wind.

The rules PROMOTE fraud.

STF

Dec. 27, 2007, 12:56 PM

Most people dont want to buy young.
Honestly, once I get to the point I can break/start babies anymore, I wont keep breeding or buying young horses either. You can find very decent riding horses for 20-30K, being what I would have to put into a baby from prenatal to 6yrs old. Does not make financial sense unless Im just looking for a tax write off.

Buying young is not for everyone. I cant tell you the number of horses I have got in to start that are spoiled, no handled and to the point of dangerous at times. Yet I can get some young stock from breeders who handle correctly and they are a breeze to start, etc. So, young stock is not for everyone.

eqsiu

Dec. 27, 2007, 01:02 PM

Yet I can get some young stock from breeders who handle correctly and they are a breeze to start, etc. So, young stock is not for everyone.

I can't believe breeders let horses not like this off their property. By the time I get on my babies, they just turn and give me a rather confused look. "What are you doing up there? Oh well." That is the way it should be. Of course, I can't always speak to their reaction to my leg, but that is usually fine too.

By the by, I find started young stock (3 year olds) hard to sell too. People want something they can immediately show on.

PineTreeFarm

Dec. 27, 2007, 01:06 PM

That is the reason it is so hard for us to get that database. The big name trainers WANT to be able to continue doing that, and as long as they are in bed with the NGB, we are just crying in the wind.

The rules PROMOTE fraud.

In a way they do.

But recently it's become harder to record a horse. You must have a bill of sale signed by the seller, not the agent or trainer. And they do check the horse name on the document back to their database. If the horse name matches one already on their file (recorded or HID) and the seller name doesn't match or the bill of sale is signed by an agent they won't record the horse.

But if you use a horse name that is not on file with them then you can pretty much do as you please as they have nothing to verify against.

A HID is required to make an entry. And they are easy to get, especially at a show.

So if someone is trying a horse at a show and doesn't have the USEF # they are almost forced into obtaining a HID which may have incorrect info.

Tamara in TN

Dec. 27, 2007, 01:17 PM

By the by, I find started young stock (3 year olds) hard to sell too. People want something they can immediately show on.

Modern times do seem to dictate "free" or "perfect" as the only two requirements for horse sales ;) and anything else is just a headache...

the problem is compounded by a lack of people who have the patience to train young horses...horse training if done properly is the most boring sort of thing in the world...(which is why I was/am always so entertained with tiny boring things like moving off a leg...or even trying
to move off a leg :lol::lol:)

it lacks any great pizzaz past "lather, rinse, repeat and ease into a new idea"..... the only great dramas arise when horses are pushed past what they were bred to do (physically or mentally)...or when the trainer moves to fast in an attempt to ward off boredom :yes::lol:

horses bred into and for a thing glide into and pick up their heritage as easy as beautiful swans on the water...

Tamara in TN

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 27, 2007, 01:41 PM

the problem is compounded by a lack of people who have the patience to train young horses...horse training if done properly is the most boring sort of thing in the world...(which is why I was/am always so entertained with tiny boring things like moving off a leg...or even trying
to move off a leg :lol::lol:)

Most of our youngsters have done the super easy and fast road. We slow them down by only working them once a week. You can't just drill them day in and out, as they get quickly bored. The easy ones are just TOO easy to keep moving up as they just do everything as soon as asked. They learn everything they should learn in a week or two in a twenty minute ride, so going once a week is perfect. They are not bored as they didn't just to the same yesterday. They are all different though.

The one we started this year, just didn't seem happy, so we just began to take weekly walks around the field, instead of riding in the ring. I wanted him to ENJOY the partnership, not just try to get his 4 times around the arena over with. After 2 months of this, he is now very happy with ring work, and one of the easiest ones we have done. He now loves his work, and is super willing.

Tamara in TN

Dec. 27, 2007, 01:48 PM

Most of our youngsters have done the super easy and fast road. We slow them down by only working them once a week. You can't just drill them day in and out, as they get quickly bored. The easy ones are just TOO easy to keep moving up as they just do everything as soon as asked. They learn everything they should learn in a week or two in a twenty minute ride, so going once a week is perfect. They are not bored as they didn't just to the same yesterday. They are all different though.

The one we started this year, just didn't seem happy, so we just began to take weekly walks around the field, instead of riding in the ring. I wanted him to ENJOY the partnership, not just try to get his 4 times around the arena over with. After 2 months of this, he is now very happy with ring work, and one of the easiest ones we have done. He now loves his work, and is super willing.

yep...and it takes a real rider to understand when to push and when to let go and try another route...and that is something you cannot read in a book or on a website...

you have to feel each horse and slow yourself to where he is in his journey...you can't just say "oh this walk,trot,whoa work is so boring for me as a rider,let's see what happens if I ask him to turn on the haunches??" :lol::lol:

that is where we as riders must fight our desire for excitement...and keep at Dobbins speed...

Tamara in TN

jej

Dec. 28, 2007, 12:22 PM

Sporthorse breeders: I'm part of your market for young horses.

I am an experienced rider and owner with my own facility - but limited funds. I don't aspire to ride Grand Prix, but want a good, competitive horse to ride and show at the national level. I like to purchase weanlings - it gives me the fun of a young horse, without the breeding issues. Of my personal horses, four out of five were purchased as weanlings - they now range from 7 - 15 years old. I own my own farm, and train them myself with the help of a coach(es). I have over 30 years of experience.

I am well aware of the cost of breeding - I have bred a few myself. I am willing to purchase weanlings because I like to be involved with the training from the beginning. I am willing to assume the risks involved in getting the baby to riding age - injury etc.- and I am willing to take a chance on a suitable baby sired by a young stallion. In exchange for this, I want a price break.

What I often see, however, is ridiculously high prices on weanlings. Breeders price them according to their potential, and often there is little difference between weanling and two year old prices. In reality, the profit margin is highest on weanlings - then maybe on 3 year olds that are going (well) under saddle. You may have a wonderful weanling, but if he gets injured as a yearling or two year old - guess what? He's not worth anything. And breeding can be a crapshoot - sometimes the best genetics in the world, don't translate into superior individuals. I'm willing to take the chance.

I understand how you all are cautious in placing your babies - many people aren't equipped to raise a young horse. But some of us are, and you are pricing weanlings as if they are proven horses, that are ready to go. It sometimes seems that you feel that unless you have big price tags on them, your babies can't be any good!

Obviously, if you are selling out your foal crops, you can ignore this input. But for the rest of you - think about where you want your babies to go, and offer incentives to the right buyers if you want to sell them young!

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 28, 2007, 12:52 PM

jej, thanks for your input. It is hard to know where to price babies. I usually sell at least half of my youngsters as weanlings, except for the year I had 2 - 4th place Dressage at Devon foals. NEITHER of those sold. At the time I did raise their price - from $5500 to 6000. They were priced less than half, and in some cases less than 1/4th of what the other highly placed babies were priced.

In my case, most of what has sold easily has been the ones without a show record. So were the shown ones too low? Sometimes it is true that if you DO price too low, people think they can't be really nice. Now, I am excited to get them under saddle in the next year, so I am glad they did not sell. Now, I prefer to make sure they get a great start.

jej

Dec. 28, 2007, 02:50 PM

Those are reasonable prices, Darlyn. What I object to, are the babies priced at $15 - $20K, which I often see in Ontario. Then I see them again, priced at $15 - $20K as two year olds.

I have been fortunate in finding quality weanlings at the $5k and under point - and in several cases, I know I got a real bargain based what I had to offer, and the need of the breeder to sell. You really have to look though, at this price point.

Either the breeder or I will have a lot of $$ invested by the time baby is grown up - no matter how he turns out! It's very rewarding, however - as you all know.

Bastet

Dec. 28, 2007, 05:21 PM

FWIW, and this is only my opinion, not a breeder, and have no facts other than my own experiences, I think the ones who do purchase very young “prospects” are a very small group of individuals who know exactly what they want, they do their research, and because of that, are quickly able to filter through the many breeders out there that either don’t or likely won’t have something that will fit their criteria. They are individuals difficult to target because they have their own target and only they know what it is :sadsmile:.

When I started looking for my future dressage and competition horse nearly two years ago, I knew exactly what I wanted. I knew what breed I wanted. I knew the blending of bloodlines that I wanted. I knew I wanted something young that had had very little handling. I knew I wanted a gelding. (Splendid conformation a given.) I was only “hoping” for a little flash. Oh, and I knew that I’d be in a lot of trouble if I spent more than $5,000 or $6,000. (I truly don't want very much):winkgrin:.

I broadly searched the internet and came across exactly two prospects from two different breeders that really held my interest. One was a long two year old, lightly started under saddle, and the other one was a very unhandled yearling colt.

I was concerned that perhaps the two year old may have been started under saddle a little too soon. So, I went and looked at the yearling. I was hooked on him. He turned out to be exactly what I expected and pictured him to be in the flesh based on his bloodlines and he even had a little "flash." I ended up purchasing him.

I’m an AA, I pay $600 per month to board him (does not include supplements, vet, farrier, or training fees) and have since I’ve brought him home, and it will probably be next fall before he is started under saddle. So far, he is exactly what I wanted and expected and I couldn’t have asked for more. Oh, yeah, he’s a gelding now ; )

I think, and this is only my opinion, that if you want to target these buyers for your younger stock, you have to really understand what it is you are promoting. Meaning, you really have to have a true understanding of, not just your breeding program and the outcome of that program, but also a very true understanding your foals as individuals.

Because again, just a heartfelt opinion (not trying to be cutesy), what you have in the end are individuals searching for specific individuals and you are in the middle, bringing them together.