Wheel-types & breed shows

[HighFlyinBey++]

I've looked through some of the threads, but I don't see the answer I need.

Could someone please tell me what the consequences would be of prohibiting wire wheels in pleasure classes at a breed show? The breeds involved are Class A Arab/HA/AA, Class A Morgan, Class C Saddlebred & unrated Morab.

The show currently allows all wheel types, but we were told that "points could be earned" if the classes were restricted to wooden wheels.

I'm looking for both pros & cons on both sides of the issue so that I can make an informed decision ASAP (the prize list needs to go out in a matter of days).

Thanks much!

[DJ]

I don't think that many of the people that show in the breed shows have the wooden or other type wheels. Most have a jerald type cart and that has the pneumatic type tires on them. Sulkies, jog carts and fine harness or houghton type all have the pneumatic wire wheels usually. You would eleminate many of the people that would be interested in driving, I would think.

Of course my experience with it is about 15 years old, but I don't think that it has changed that much.

[Renae]

Do you mean points could not be earned if you changed the rules to restrict the class to wooden wheels only? That would be true, if you changed the class rules to something different than what is stated in the USEF rule book you would no longer be holding a USEF class, and for the Arab/Half-Arab people in particular that would be very important because if it is not a USEF specs class they can't earn points from it to go to regioanls/nationals. Most breed show exhibitors use wire spoke wheels, so if you made an additional requirement of wooden wheels only not only would it no longer be a USEF class you would probably get very few entries. Basically for breed shows go by the USEF rule book, which allows wire spoke wheels.

[Renae]

Rather than changing the specs for the traditional breed-ring pleasure driving classes (which as I said would no longer make them USEF classes and the exhibitors would not be able to count points from them for USEF purposes), why not add a carriage driving division? Both the Arabian/Half-Arabian and Morgan diviisons have specs on the book for carriage driving divisions for those breeds.

[War Admiral]

Here's my thought: offer "country pleasure driving" for the breeds, with wire wheels permitted, AND "carriage pleasure driving" open to ALL breeds, with only wood wheels permitted.

Would that solve the problem?

I'm not sure which organizations' points you are talking about, but ASBs, Morgans, and I thiiiiiiiiinnnnnk Arabs (not sure) all have country pleasure driving; and USEF recently enacted a points system for Open (to all breeds) Carriage Pleasure Driving divisions.

[HighFlyinBey++]

Thanks for the quick responses!

I am not sure exactly what was said about the point classes. It was to another person, who then asked me. We used to have a driving enthusiast on the show committee, but she left us 2 years ago.

From what I recall, about half our participants had wooden wheels, the other were wire. We don't attract a lot of drivers overall, although we hope to change that.

ETA: We are unable to add more classes to the schedule at this time. Let me see if I can dig up the classes we are offering. Maybe that will help clarify--or maybe not!

[Drive NJ]

I think they are referring to the fact that wire wheels would not be acceptable in the USEF Pleasure Driving Classes which derive from American Driving Society rules. I think they will remain separate in terms of year end awards so adding solid wheels probably won't matter either way

Only catch to that is the USEF Pleasure Driving Committee who seems to have put together a committee to revamp the ADS rules (fyi, they actually included some ADS people on the committee along with breed and other representation - nice of them wasn't it)

I'm fully expecting to see some serious rule changes to accomodate breed drivers being pushed down to ADS from USEF (grrrrrr) from one who thinks affiliates should control rules in their baliwick, not USEF. IOW leave the breed groups alone if they are happy with what they have. Leave the ADS rules alone as well (as printed in USEF rule book). If USEF wants to make changes they should work with the group involved, not make their own committee to tell the affiliates what they should do.

[Renae]

The pleasure driving classes available to offer under each breeds rules are:

Arabs & Half-Arabs
Pleasure Driving- in which you may use either a two or four wheeled vhicle. Most these days use a two wheeled vehicle, a Jerald or Houghton pleasure cart which can be used with wire or wooden wheels, but the traditional four wheeled vehicle was a fine harness buggy, which only has wire wheels
Country Pleasure Driving- two wheeled vehicle, a Jerald or Houghton pleasure cart which can be used with wire or wooden wheels

Morgan
Pleasure Driving- two wheeled vehicle, a Jerald or Houghton pleasure cart which can be used with wire or wooden wheels
Classic Pleasure Driving- two wheeled vehicle, a Jerald or Houghton pleasure cart which can be used with wire or wooden wheels

Saddlebred
Show Pleasure Driving- two wheeled vehicle, a Jerald or Houghton pleasure cart which can be used with wire or wooden wheels
Country Pleasure Driving- two wheeled vehicle, a Jerald or Houghton pleasure cart which can be used with wire or wooden wheels
Park Pleasure Driving- two wheeled vehicle, a Jerald or Houghton pleasure cart which can be used with wire or wooden wheels

A pair of wooden wheels for these 2 wheeled pleasure carts cost $1000. Would be nice if people had them as they are larger and sit the driver at a more appropriate height, but they are not mandated under USEF rules for these classes and a show should not add additional rules becaue they feel like it.

[War Admiral]

Geeze, DNJ, what's your beef????

USEF has made it clear for quite some time now that, now that they are officially the NGB, they want the breed/discipline affiliates to oversee the rules.

I've said before and will say again - if ADS wants to ONLY be a combined driving organization and IHP affiliate, then it should go ahead and do just that. ADS doesn't meet the needs of pleasure drivers anyway.

The only reason USEF stepped in and offered the Carriage Pleasure Driving division and HOTY is b/c ADS was not doing it, and there were lots of us, including various breed organizations, and obviously myself (who drives an "alternative breed" with no breed organization and thus is not eligible to compete in carriage driving at breed shows), who favored it.

I've also stated before that pretty dang obviously the ADS is falling flat on its asp when it comes to governing pleasure shows in the Southeast Region. The calendar has dwindled to the point where if you don't live within reasonable driving distance of Florida or Southern Pines, there's nothing left. The ADS should IMO have stepped in *years* ago to start controlling the issue of conflicting dates. Instead, they hung us pleasure drivers out to dry and let carriage pleasure driving DIE down here. So I voted with my feet! :D I can't be bothered with an organization that doesn't meet my needs, sorry.

Personally I am very grateful to USEF for trying to plug the gap and provide us pleasure drivers with a genuinely viable alternative, such as carriage pleasure divisions at the breed shows. :yes: Now, if only more show managers would offer *open* divisions, I could even pull my horse out of retirement (again).... ;)

USEF is, to my mind, simply trying to HELP us grow the pleasure end of the sport, which will otherwise die out completely.

[Drive NJ]

As I said, not needed. People are happy as they are for now. If there is a good reason to change fine... if its about points... well I don't consider that a good reason.

The various breeds have developed classes to show their horses in a style they like which is exciting to watch. Same with "carriage driving" aka what we call "pleasure driving" in ADS speak. Same with draft hitch showing. Different things, all fun and all worth preserving as individual things.

People can and do cross over, you just need to remember to follow the rules for that type of competition up to and including the equipment.

[HighFlyinBey++]

Due to the low number of entries we've had in the past, the show's driving classes have been trimmed to these 5:

ASB Show Pleasure Driving
ASB Country Pleasure Driving
Open Pleasure Driving
Morgan Pleasure Driving Open
Open Pleasure Driving Championship

Does anyone see a reason to exclude wire wheels based on these? I'm leaning towards the "no" because, as you've pointed out, that limits many drivers from competing.

I haven't yet heard back from the person who was asked about the restriction.

[War Admiral]

Must be nice to live in an ADS region where pleasure drivers are "happy"... and actually have SHOWS to go to...

There has been a *crying* need for change for the last 5 years, which the ADS has not addressed.

If the ADS membership cannot come up with the numbers for a full-on ADS carriage pleasure show, then CLEARLY there has to be some option to offer us *somewhere* we can compete. Carriage pleasure divisions at breed shows works for me... It's just that more breed shows need to offer the division.

So, kudos and thanks once again to USEF for Chapter CP in the rule book, and to the ADS members on the committee who contributed to making it happen. :yes:

[War Admiral]

ASB Show Pleasure Driving
ASB Country Pleasure Driving
Open Pleasure Driving
Morgan Pleasure Driving Open
Open Pleasure Driving Championship

Which organizations is this show rated by?

According to USEF rules, you could NOT bar wire wheels from ANY of these divisions.

[Renae]

Due to the low number of entries we've had in the past, the show's driving classes have been trimmed to these 5:

ASB Show Pleasure Driving
ASB Country Pleasure Driving
Open Pleasure Driving
Morgan Pleasure Driving Open
Open Pleasure Driving Championship

Does anyone see a reason to exclude wire wheels based on these? I'm leaning towards the "no" because, as you've pointed out, that limits many drivers from competing.

I haven't yet heard back from the person who was asked about the restriction.

No, I see no reason to excluyde wire wheels from these classes. They are breed show classes, not carriage pleasure classes.

[War Admiral]

You could, however, change the "open" division to this (http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2007/07-CP.pdf), thus providing the wooden-wheel peeps with a place to play. :yes:

[Drive NJ]

WA -
The beef is not that I want ADS to control all not USEF, but when USEF calls ADS their driving affiliate and then forms their own committee to review/change the rules outside the affiliate rather than affecting the change within the affiliate, then I think its an issue.

I agree ADS should be doing more and that the pleasure committee hasn't been active, but don't think cutting them out of the picture is any more helpful to pleasure driving then it is to CDEs which has similar issues. I also know Jeff Morse - current head of Pleasure Committee is working hard to try to rebuild his committee.

I LIKE the breed shows. I LIKE "carriage driving". I just would like USEF to work with their affiliates instead of against them - both in breed and affiliate.

RE shows in the SE... neither ADS nor USEF actually runs the shows. That is a function of show organizations and clubs or individuals. If local individuals, show committees and clubs aren't running things, neither organization can make that happen.

That said, they CAN support shows better and avoiding date conflicts would be a big help. I do think though that USEF won't get our issues as for most of the other disciplines, two shows, one in SC and one in GA on adjacent weekends wouldn't be as much of a conflict as it is for us.

RE your comments about Country pleasure welcoming open drivers and allowing both wire and wooden wheels. That is happening up here at breed shows and USEF shows already and has been for years. Hopefully that will spread more.

Sorry about the grouchiness around year end awards... its just many of the folks who started "carriage driving" vs "breed showing/driving" when I did came to driving to avoid that whole scene so I guess I've been indoctrinated into the philosophy that the lack of Year end awards was part of the reason our sport was staying a bit less cut throat. In recent years we have a whole new bunch of drivers who are bringing their breed and other type of show experience with them and now want cash prizes and year end awards. At the same time its gotten a bit less friendly out there. Could be just changing times, could be the prizes. I don't know, but I hope if USEF does morph all and ADS falls by the wayside in pleasure that we can hold on and rebuild the friendliness I remember.

Of course, that pre-supposes memory is true and not how I'd like it to have been.

[Renae]

You could, however, change the "open" division to this (http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2007/07-CP.pdf), thus providing the wooden-wheel peeps with a place to play. :yes:

At these sorts of shows the Open Pleasure Driving is used as a catch-all for the breeds that don't have a specific class to go in (at this show the Arabs, Half-Arabs and Morabs) and the Open Pleasure Driving Champiosnhip would be the Championship for all of the classes listed as they don't have a Championship for each breed.

[HighFlyinBey++]

Which organizations is this show rated by?

According to USEF rules, you could NOT bar wire wheels from ANY of these divisions.

It's USEF. Thanks much, WA. I'm pulling out my little bit of hair over this show. It's one hell of a PITA to have to learn rules for 4 associations and however-many disciplines :dead:

I do drive my pony, but after reading some very educational posts recently, I realize just how lucky I've been. I had no idea I was as foolish as I was (am) at times. I'm looking forward to the day I can improve my driving abilities. Until then, I'm just a lowly grasshopper :sigh:

[War Admiral]

At these sorts of shows the Open Pleasure Driving is used as a catch-all for the breeds that don't have a specific class to go in (at this show the Arabs, Half-Arabs and Morabs) and the Open Pleasure Driving Champiosnhip would be the Championship for all of the classes listed as they don't have a Championship for each breed.

Can they get points for that?? :confused:

Under USEF rules, if you want to offer a multi-breed class for wooden-wheeled peeps to play in, pretty much your *only* option is to add a Carriage Pleasure Driving class, specifying wood wheels only.

I do know the Morgan rules provide for a *Morgan* Carriage Pleasure division, but that doesn't help you much, since ASBs and (AFAIK) Arabs don't... yet... :D:D

But if you did that, what you would then do about a championship class I dunno really... Renae, any inspirations? :)

[Renae]

Can they get points for that?? :confused:

Under USEF rules, if you want to offer a multi-breed class for wooden-wheeled peeps to play in, pretty much your *only* option is to add a Carriage Pleasure Driving class, specifying wood wheels only.

I do know the Morgan rules provide for a *Morgan* Carriage Pleasure division, but that doesn't help you much, since ASBs and (AFAIK) Arabs don't... yet... :D:D

But if you did that, what you would then do about a championship class I dunno really... Renae, any inspirations? :)

Actually Arabs/Half-Arabs do have a carriage pleasure division and National Championhips for that division. But having worked on multi-breed shows of this sort in the past just telling you why these open pleasure driving classes are put in, to catch the random few exhibitors that they don't offer a class for an gauge interest level for future classes. If 6 people showed up with meadowbrooks or gigs and went in that open class the show might think about adding carriage pleausre driving in the future. If 6 people show up with Half-Arab Country Pleasure Driving horses the show might think of adding that in the future.

[War Admiral]

Ahhh, OK, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying!

So am I reading correctly that horses in the breed-specific classes would *not* be eligible for the Open Pleasure Driving Championship class? So, e.g., you couldn't cross-enter your ASB Show Pleasure Horse into Open?

If that is the case then I think the class list as stated is probably fine, IF you also want to specify that "open" is open to wood-wheeled vehicles.

But then it wouldn't be a points class.

Would that work?

[Renae]

Ahhh, OK, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying!

So am I reading correctly that horses in the breed-specific classes would *not* be eligible for the Open Pleasure Driving Championship class? So, e.g., you couldn't cross-enter your ASB Show Pleasure Horse into Open?

If that is the case then I think the class list as stated is probably fine, IF you also want to specify that "open" is open to wood-wheeled vehicles.

But then it wouldn't be a points class.

Would that work?

The open class is consider a local member event under USEF rules and in that case those running the show can make whatever rules for it they want. If is the specific breed rules events that you can't be changed. Also, any horse at the show can enter it, includingt he ones already going in their breed specific driving class if they would like to go in more than 1 class in the show.

[HighFlyinBey++]

The open class is consider a local member event under USEF rules and in that case those running the show can make whatever rules for it they want.
Thanks, Renae. Currently, the show has all open classes follow the rules of their associations/USEF, with exceptions for 1-2 classes.

Using that logic, we couldn't change the rules of the open classes to keep out wire wheels.

I'm still not sure which group, or if it was just one person, asked about the switch. It might even be for a "local" show circuit.

Thanks so much for your help (but keep talking so I keep learning!)

[War Admiral]

The open class is consider a local member event under USEF rules and in that case those running the show can make whatever rules for it they want. If is the specific breed rules events that you can't be changed. Also, any horse at the show can enter it, includingt he ones already going in their breed specific driving class if they would like to go in more than 1 class in the show.

...Right, OK. But I thiiiiiiiiinnnk the question HFB originally asked - or rather, *was* asked by a competitor - was, is there any way for competitors with wooden-wheeled vehicles to compete for USEF points at this show (correct me if I'm wrong, HFB). And I thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnk the only way that could happen would be to add or substitute a Carriage Pleasure class.

Or have I still got the wrong end of the stick?? :lol:

[KellyS]

I've also stated before that pretty dang obviously the ADS is falling flat on its asp when it comes to governing pleasure shows in the Southeast Region. The calendar has dwindled to the point where if you don't live within reasonable driving distance of Florida or Southern Pines, there's nothing left.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding this situation, but the only people who can make sure pleasure driving shows exist in the SE are the show organizers and competitors. If there are enough competitors to warrant providing pleasure driving shows, then they need to work with an organizer to do this. The ADS cannot create shows or put them on their calendar unless they have people willing to run them and compete in them.

Yes, combined driving is becoming the mainstay of the ADS omnibus, but this is because combined driving is growing by leaps and bounds. And yes, in our area, there are many people who also compete in pleasure driving and because of this, there is a nice selection of pleasure driving shows to go to (run by local organizations--for example, Brandywine Valley Carriage Driving Club and Garden State Carriage Driving club--made up of these competitors).

In regard to conflicting dates, this is an issue that all organizations face. I do not know the history of pleasure shows in the SE and how they were/are affected by conflicts, so I can't comment on that. I do know that the Georgia International CDE and Southern Pines CDE had conflicting dates this year, but they are, of course, CDEs, not pleasure driving shows.

The ADS certainly is faced with many issues, but I do know that the people involved with ADS are putting a lot of effort into meeting the needs of their members. I think it is easy to stand back and say what they are doing wrong, but until we are willing to become actively involved in some capacity and help them grow and continue meeting the needs of members, that we should withhold harsh criticism of their efforts.

Kelly

[HighFlyinBey++]

...Right, OK. But I thiiiiiiiiinnnk the question HFB originally asked - or rather, *was* asked by a competitor - was, is there any way for competitors with wooden-wheeled vehicles to compete for USEF points at this show (correct me if I'm wrong, HFB). And I thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnk the only way that could happen would be to add or substitute a Carriage Pleasure class.

Or have I still got the wrong end of the stick?? :lol:

I'm not sure, LOL! It may be USEF points or it may be for a "local" circuit. The person who was asked is out on errands for the afternoon.

I feel like I'm playing "telephone" here :uhoh:

[War Admiral]

I feel like I'm playing "telephone" here :uhoh:

LOL, I bet you do. BTW you have my sympathies trying to organize a show under the 4 sets of rules - that's got to be *several* plateloads of information too many. You're doing a good job though!! :yes:

I guess what I'd do in your situation is track back to whoever asked the question, see what, specifically, they wanted, and if it *is* something that's not on your schedule, ask if they can come up with a sponsor for it. :D: cool: The breed shows hereabouts usually work that way - if you want a class/division added and you can come up w/ the entries and/or the $$, you can usually get it added.

The answer to *your* original question is that I don't think legally you can restrict any of the breed classes to wood-wheeled vehicles only. They each have to stick to their own rules. Best/least expensive solution to level the playing field for wood-wheeled peeps would be to add a Carriage Pleasure class, open to all breeds.

HOPE that helps, but not sure! :lol:

[HighFlyinBey++]

That might be a solution, even if it is adding one more class. If that person/s wants it, they have to foot the bill for the Carriage Pleasure class (that's the correct name??)

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'm not the show manager, but I seem to have the most stuff stuck in my head. I used to bring 3 horses to that show, help run it AND run the Youth program :eek:

This year, I'm flying in, not showing (it's now 18 hrs away) and not doing the kiddie stuff. We ARE having a wine/cheese party on Saturday night (with some margies thrown in for good measure!) That ought to be fun :D

[War Admiral]

Thing is, you want to avoid any appearance of impropriety, so if it comes down to you being the one that does the asking, ask the competitor to sponsor some *other* class that s/he will not be entering. When I used to ask for classes to be added, I'd just tell the organizer "Here's a class sponsorship - apply it wherever it's needed" and that worked out fine for everyone.

Running these shows is a bear, but it can be really fun if it's a good team! :yes:

[Cartfall]

Glad to see you back. I guess this thread is about a show you used to speak of up in Wisconsin.

Good luck with your show. Glas to hear June Bug is still with you.

[HighFlyinBey++]

This is actually our national show in Sterling, IL. I'm impressed you remembered the WI show--it's been a long time :)

Miss Bug won't leave me if I can help it. She's happily earning her keep as a school pony this summer. Yep, lil' ole Ay-rab mare hasn't been ridden in 2 years and she's still a gem :D

[Cartfall]

We know how those Ayrabs really are!!!

Glad you dropped by!!! :cool: Stay in touch!

[HighFlyinBey++]

I lurk a lot on this forum. I'm learning just how little I know and how lucky I am to have June Bug. I'm not ready for the (deserved) flogging I know I'll get if/when certain poster find out how I managed not to die training her.

[pattnic]

I had always just assumed that it was sort of a way to keep the fine harness/pleasure driving horses out of classes that were designed to be for carriage driving, to help make sure that what was under the judge was more appropriately judged. Not sure if I have worded this very clearly, so if you are not sure what I mean, please ask!

[HighFlyinBey++]

I feel like an idiot asking, but could you give a basic description of carriage driving vs. fine harness? I think that would help me get the right picture in my mind.

[War Admiral]

Sure, no problem...

Carriage driving (http://www.carriageclassic.com/images/clancy2002.jpg).

Fine Harness (http://www.asha.net/files/class94.jpg).

See the differences?

Carriage driving: Wood-wheeled, heavy duty vehicle and harness suitable for road and cross country work; frame/way of going of horse ditto.

Fine Harness: Everything is for show only. Uber-lightweight vehicle and harness which would collapse in 10 seconds or less if sent across country. Horse can carry itself in that upright frame b/c it's not pulling a lot of weight.

You can see why both in the same class would be something of a problem! :lol:

[HighFlyinBey++]

Yikes.

Yeah, I can definitely see a problem! It'd be like trying to judge hunter pleasure, saddleseat & WP at the same time. Possible (unrated locals do it all the time), but definitely not easy. I wish we'd get more driving horses to come to this show so that we could justify separating them--I sure don't want to drop driving altogether.

Thanks!

[War Admiral]

Yeah, I can definitely see a problem! It'd be like trying to judge hunter pleasure, saddleseat & WP at the same time. Possible (unrated locals do it all the time), but definitely not easy. I wish we'd get more driving horses to come to this show so that we could justify separating them--I sure don't want to drop driving altogether.

Yes, finding qualified judges who can and will judge each type to its discipline/breed standard is very difficult (as is finding *trainers* who can *train* to each standard, BTW, although we are blessed with several in this area). USEF is very helpful in this regard however. And it would help a lot more if more ADS judges applied for their USEF cards (hint hint).

Please, whatever you do, though, DON'T drop the driving classes!! Find sponsors, keep offering them, and publicize publicize publicize. People will come.

[HighFlyinBey++]

The judge we've hired is "R" in all 3 breeds, but does that translate into the ability to judge driving well?

We've had some misfortunes with the show in past years, mostly related to the location (one venue kicked us out for a show that made more money; we lost another thanks to Katrina + Rita = no entries). Our goal this year is to come up with a class schedule that can be counted on as "stable" for the next 3 years. At that time, we plan to revisit the lineup and see what needs to be changed.

I really hope by that time we have enough drivers to expand the classes :)

[War Admiral]

The judge we've hired is "R" in all 3 breeds, but does that translate into the ability to judge driving well?

Well, your judge will most certainly be able to judge all 3 breeds to their respective *breed* standards in any type of driving each breed offers, which is the most important thing, in your situation. If you end up putting a carriage driving class in, it may have to be non-rated unless your judge is licensed or can get (I think it's called?) a guest card for that.

It's soooooooooo complicated! :lol:

[HighFlyinBey++]

I think "guest card" is correct.

Now that you mention it, there was a carriage pleasure driving class at one point. I can't remember why it got put in or why we took it out.

In any case, this has all been a very informative discussion. I should print it out for future reference or for other non-drivers that work on this show.

Thanks much!!

[Drive NJ]

OK WA... don't hit me, but a LOT of ADS judges and TDs were dropped from USEF cards as they hadn't been hired to judge at USEF shows for 2 years. Boom... you need to apply all over again. Most said - not worth it and walked away.

Its also a problem for CDEs offering FEI level - First they need FEI judges, which are mostly European (so judges with ADS and USEF cards at advanced level aren't working (2 yrs and you are out) Also makes it hard for US judges to become FEI judges because they lack experience. Its an unfortunate Catch 22

I know one solution proposed was to encourage some events to run non FEI allowing US judges to gain experience and hopefully go on to an FEI card.

It would probably be helpful if USEF would allow shows offering one class in a discipline to run under some sort of exemption so the show didn't have to pay for a guest card and another judge salary for a small division.

I know USEF fees used to kill our Junior to Drive Class and Ladies/Gentlemen to drive class at a show I used to work with. The folks entering were often only interested in that on class and all the fees put the price way out of reach

[War Admiral]

LOL, not going to hit you, that's not surprising at all... But it *is* one of the Catch-22's which (IMHO) is preventing the Open Carriage Driving division from taking off... The shows can't get the judges b/c there aren't many who are rated for Breed A or B or C *and* carriage driving, and in turn the judges can't get enough carriage driving work under USEF rules to stay USEF judges! :cool:

I agree there does seem to be a need for *some* variety of workaround to "grow" the division - maybe a complimentary guest card for those USEF judges in the breeds who are also ADS judges, or something like that...??