Stallion Owners Misrepresenting Size

[VirginiaBred]

Why do stallion owners misrepresent the size of their stallions?
It becomes a serious situation for mare owners, especially for those of us who are breeding for a certain size pony as the end result. I didn't think it was as much of a problem as it is, but last week at Devon, there were several discussions regarding stallions and their real size vs advertised size.

It's critical when a stallion is larger than advertised (resulting in large ponies that go over, or mediums that are wronged sized).
I can see a margin of error for a young stallion where a projected height may be made, but once a mature height is established, that should be corrected, right?

For example, we had bred to *Forge Nimbus many times. We saw him just after being imported (and many, many times there after) but in his youth, he measured right at 15.0. In more recent years, he was advertised as 14.2. Knowing what we knew, we were extremely careful in selecting mares to go to him.

This has got to be a problem for breeding for jumpers or dressage also, correct? You need as large as possible (or you would like to achieve that).

I realize the obvious thing is for the mare owner to go and see the stallion in person (and taking your USEF measuring stick :lol:) but that is not always possible. Relying on the honesty of the stallion owner is the only choice.

[Shawnda N]

That has been a personal pet peeve of mine for years. Most horse owners over-estimate the height of their horse by 2 inches. When choosing a stallion, I look up the measured height at the time of inspection, and then "guessimate" the finnished height of the stallion. I never rely on the information stallion owners give me.
Many, Many times I have seen mares and stallions measured much lower than the information the owner has provided. "But I swear he was 16.0 hh at home !" :no:
Owners, Go and buy a metal regulation measuring stick with a float, stand your horse square, and then line it up with the foreleg up to the withers, not on the neck ! :eek:

[Waterwitch]

This is a huge problem in our breed with bone measurements. Stallions advertised with 10 inches of bone which couldn't possibly have that much...very aggravating to say the least in a breed where maintaining substance is critical to conserving breed type.

[Sonesta]

The problem is even worse in the Arabian world. It's almost become a joke that Arabian owners must measure a hand as 3 inches!

[okggo]

I went to visit the local boys when I was looking for a stallion for my mare and there were only two I would say were accurately advertized. I am exactly 16.2 at my eyes, so when the horses withers come to my chin and it's advertized at 17 hands, I am fairly certain either they are clueless or just plain lied.

I wanted a stallion between 16.2 and 17 hands, hoping for a horse in that range to take up my 5'10" frame. But I think basically, if the stallion is accomplished enough the actual height should not be a deal breaker, and if it is I"m sure there are many more mare owners that will go after that horse for talent and not care. Better to be honest then to guess and be wrong or lie.

Waterwitch, how do you do that measurement?

[Tom King]

I've been thinking that we must have some localized warp in gravity or space/time relativity at our farm because horses are ALWAYS two inches taller on everyone elses farm.

[Daydream Believer]

I sure understand why this is important but what is funny is that I can get a different measurement of size everytime I stick my stallion. I have sticked him from 14:1+ to 14:2 1/2...it depends on how he stands...if he's laid back and relaxed or standing at attention or when he was last trimmed. It's a bit frustrating to me as well! Thankfully in our breed, size is irrelevant but for competition's sake in dressage, it will matter as he can range from 146 to 148+ cm's... I guess the thing to do is get an "official" measurement at some point from some show official

[Fenway]

I breed mostly ponies--large ponies--and size is a HUGE issue. Especially when dealing with large pony stallions. There are a few that I know of for sure that are over-sized and advertised as 14.2. This causes a lot of unnecessary problems for the breeders who trust the word of the so-called reputable breeders and end up with over-sized ponies themselves when this wouldn't have been a problem if the stallion owners were upfront about the size of their stallions in the first place. And saying that a stallion throws size, when it's really his OWN size that he's throwing, is not being honest about the situation. I find it especially irritating because there ARE successful stallions in the 15 hand range (Larry's Hat, for example) who are and have been very popular, but knowing the difference between 14.2 and 15 hands would make a big difference in the size/breeding of the mare that I would breed to such a stallion.

[blton9th]

I find it absolutely critical with the pony breeding, that a stallion owner be totally honest about actual size. As a matter of principle, I wouldn't send my business to a stallion owner that is untruthful, even if I really liked the stallion. ;)

[arnika]

LOL, Tom. I've been thinking the very same thing.

In answer to Vabred, it's because of the insane requirement Americans have for "must only show a pony that is 14.1 1/2 in the larges" no matter what their stride really is, along with the "must have a h/j or dressage horse that is no less than 16.3" no matter whether the rider ends up looking like a monkey up there.

Stallion owners fudge the numbers to cater to these breeders/riders that look at size as their first requirement instead of the actual talents and abilities of the horse/pony. I'm always sooo happy to find the stallion owner that actually posts the true height.

By the way, Fenway and blton9th, I was posting while you were and wanted to say that when you are breeding for ponies and picking stallions knowing their true height is indeed essential. I was aiming my insane comment towards trainers and owners who refuse to look at ponies if they are under 14.1 (in a 13.2-14.2 class range). Sorry for any confusion.

[Wowelsh]

I've been thinking that we must have some localized warp in gravity or space/time relativity at our farm because horses are ALWAYS two inches taller on everyone elses farm.

LOL...I thought WE were in the "low zone" ;) . I once purchased a pony from OR who arrived a full 2" shorter, than he was when he left home. It's amazing what road concussion can do to a pony's height. Hmmm....

[Texarkana]

The problem is even worse in the Arabian world. It's almost become a joke that Arabian owners must measure a hand as 3 inches!

Ah, but everyone knows arabians are smaller horses, therefore they must be measured with smaller "hands." :lol:

I grew up on an arab farm... I can't tell you how many "16h" arabs that came to the farm were a good inch or two smaller than my 15.3h childrens hunter. The owners would always say, "wow, if my horse is 16h... how tall is YOUR horse??" :winkgrin:

The size issue drives me nuts. I know several, reputable breeders that I fully respect, but who fudge size and don't even realize it. Not just stallions, but mares too. I've stood next to a very popular WB stallion who is advertised as 16.1, and while my eye isn't perfect, I would bet money he was WELL under 16 hands. And don't get me started on some of the "large ponies" out there that somehow got permanent cards, despite being nearly 15h. I rode a 15h "large pony" mare who was sold across country by the trainer as a 14.2 broodmare.

But what can you do? Before AI was norm, at least mare owners got a chance to see the stallion in person when they dropped their girl off to be covered. Now, how are you going to verify that the dead European stallion you're breeding to with frozen is indeed the height advertised? What can you really do except try to add a buffer of a couple inches to account for size discrepancies.

[Fairview Horse Center]

The sticks are not the same. We had a German lady with a stick in my barn that was measuring me horses. A few years later, when she moved out, I went shopping. At Dominion, there were about 8 sticks, with the levels. First I compared the 2 different brands - different. Then I compared ALL and found a full 2" difference between the "biggest" and the "smallest" at the same mark. I left without buying any of them. Just from that store alone, there are 8 people that purchased those sticks that judge height differently.

[VirginiaBred]

The sticks are not the same. We had a German lady with a stick in my barn that was measuring me horses. A few years later, when she moved out, I went shopping. At Dominion, there were about 8 sticks, with the levels. First I compared the 2 different brands - different. Then I compared ALL and found a full 2" difference between the "biggest" and the "smallest" at the same mark. I left without buying any of them. Just from that store alone, there are 8 people that purchased those sticks that judge height differently.


I think if you're in a serious breeding program (stallion owner or breeder) you should have a USEF stick and a concrete pad for measuring. Period.

[NoDQhere]

Meisterwind is exactly 16 hands, no more, no less. But, as DB noticed, stallions "grow" or "shrink" depending on their moods :lol: Our young stallion, Lion King is a pinch over 16.2. I am amazed at how many people comment on how "big" Meisterwind is. He is a "beefy" guy with HUGE movement but he is ONLY 16 hands. Then we bring out Lion King, also a "beefy" guy and everyone swears he is 17 hands, at least :eek:

I've looked at stallions advertised at 16.1 - 16.2 with NO substance, you know the "fish" kind and they look tiny. And we have went to look at many 16 hand horses who were 15 hands when we got there :D

I can see it would be a problem with ponys but it does seem that more people are buying horses of a suitable size for them, than say, 10 years ago when EVERYONE needed a 17.2 hander :yes:

[BelladonnaLily]

My filly's sire was advertised at 17.1 I wasn't too concerned about his actual height as I could see he was definitely big ENOUGH. :yes: But now he is standing at a new farm and is advertised at 16.3. I'd wager money that this is the correct measurement :yes: Again, doesn't matter much and I'm honestly hoping my filly doesn't hit 17 h. But, it would have been nice to have known an actual measurement. With a pony, this could be a disaster. :eek: I need to make a mental note to watch them stick any pony stallion I breed to in the future! :yes:

[Valentina_32926]

For minimum height the registery normally measures the stallion, for final height you would need to see the horse in person. Warmbloods especially can grow until they are 7-8 years old.

Oh yeah - I own a 15.1 1/2 hand Dutch WB mare - and constantly get told she's 16 hands - they don't believe me until I drag out the stick and measure her in front of them - she just carries herself very upright and so appears taller. (I wish she was 16 hands but she's not.)

[blton9th]

I also wanted to mention, what really gets me is pony stallions that are actually horses, BUT advertised as top of the line larges.:mad:
Talk about no integrity! I will not support a dishonest stallion owner!

[pintopiaffe]

The problem is even worse in the Arabian world. It's almost become a joke that Arabian owners must measure a hand as 3 inches!

Guilty and victim both... :o

My guy came to me as "15h." He grew in the first year or two, and so I was saying ~15h + I had only tape at the time to measure. BUT, I trailered him next to a couple of "15h" QH's, and he WAS taller than them! So I figured it must be 'true.'

Got a regulation stick. 14.3. Yes, he can be a little taller when he's puffed up and due for shoes. Told his breeder, who was pretty horrified. She went out and got a regulation stick, and about everything on her farm & website shrunk almost a hand. :uhoh: She wasn't doing it deliberately, she just was using a tape. As was I.

Visuals can be VERY decieving. My 'big bay broodmare' was measured at 16h with a regulation stick, on concrete years ago. She's pastured with the 3yo. 3yo *looks* as big if not slightly bigger. Sticked her t'other day and she's coming in at 15.2. Still has quite a bit of growing to do as they are notoriously late bloomers... and obviously she's big "enough" because she LOOKS it next to the other mare... but it really surprized me, because I would've lost the bet had I placed it. :lol:

[Fenway]

Blton9th, that was exactly my point (mine was just a little long-winded :lol:)
If the stallion is actually over-sized, then that can be dealt, with but it is harder to do so without knowing that is the case. For pony breeders, that can be disastrous.

[blton9th]

I hear ya Fen!;) My gosh it sure can be disastrous for the pony breeders!

[BelladonnaLily]

And it certainly isn't limited to stallions! :lol: Our pony was advertised at 13h. I doubt anyone ever really measured him. I didn't care because his main purpose is to be a really cute short stirrup mount. When we measured him this year for 4H, he is 12.2 3/4 on his tiptoes. And this was after 4-5 months of steady work and 3 weeks after a trim. Not even close to 13 h. We could probably get him to measure as a small if we wanted to try really hard :lol: If it had been a big deal, we should have measured him before buying but it just goes to show that we should ALL own a stick :yes:

[Sonesta]

Wow about measuring sticks all being different lengths! I mean, I can see a dishonest person perhaps sawing off a couple inches on the bottom, but you'd think they'd all measure the same when newly purchased!

Where, exactly, does one BUY an "approved USEF" measuring stick?

[VirginiaBred]

Wow about measuring sticks all being different lengths! I mean, I can see a dishonest person perhaps sawing off a couple inches on the bottom, but you'd think they'd all measure the same when newly purchased!

Where, exactly, does one BUY an "approved USEF" measuring stick?

http://www.usef.org/documents/competitions/measurementStick.pdf


Kinda pricey, but a necessary expense.

[Fairview Horse Center]

But, as DB noticed, stallions "grow" or "shrink" depending on their moods

It is not just stallions. When I bought my first horse, 35 years ago, he was just a yearling. I was totally obsessed with his growth. I measured him daily - sometimes twice daily. Some days I would arrive at the barn, and be really depressed as he had sticked small. Then before I left, he was SO much bigger. The opposite too. I drove myself crazy. He finished at 16.1 on his "big days". Then later in life, they shrink. He was about 15.2 when he passed away last year at 31. Nevada's butt is in the 15.2 and a bit range, so he looks smaller than he is. Everyone says Ollie is SO much bigger, but he really is not. He just always "holds" himself bigger.

I think about 10? years ago, many of the pony people were upset as they were remeasuring them at the shows. Different environment, ponies were "up", and sticked differently.

The most honest thing a stallion owner can do is to know what their stallion sires. Nevada adds height, and in many cases, a LOT. He sires like he is 16.2-3. I would LOVE for him to sire ponies, and he has attracted many people that want to breed their tiny pony mares to him. I turn them away. The ones that have gone ahead and tried, have all ended up with them over growing - even out of small, smalls.

[KimPeterson]

Could I have a horse measured at a competition ? I have one that is on the edge between two sizes and would like an official word ... do they do that for horses (non ponies?) ?

[Formosus]

How about taking a stick and a measuring tape and simply marking off the distance in inches: 60 inches is 15 hands, 64 is 16.

It just boggles the mind that store bought measuring stick could be that different. An inch is an inch! If carpenter and house builders used our "stick" and our variable "inches" for measuring houses would fall down!!

I totally understand about sometime measure slightly different with one stick because of the way the horse stands but this difference in measuring stick is just beyond me!:no:

Personally I stand my horses square on the cement and I ask someone to give them a carrot at ground level. With their neck held down I can clearly see what the highest point of the wither is and that is what I measure. I see changes of 1/2 inch sometime depending on fat and muscle but rarely more then that.
Oh and my measuring stick was checked against a measuring tape (the carpenter style);)

[VirginiaBred]

The "Official Stick" is what everything is measured against, so to speak.....which is why it's the "official" stick! :lol:

The stallion owners I know have even offered to measure their stallions for the prospective mare owner. Awesome!

It becomes more of a problem with the warmbloods, don't you think due to the growth coming later.

Some of the imported warmbloods can give you more height than you thought, so knowing the pedigree sizes and what your stallion's get end us as really does help, as Fairview stated.

[Texarkana]

It is not just stallions. When I bought my first horse, 35 years ago, he was just a yearling. I was totally obsessed with his growth. I measured him daily - sometimes twice daily. Some days I would arrive at the barn, and be really depressed as he had sticked small. Then before I left, he was SO much bigger. The opposite too. I drove myself crazy. He finished at 16.1 on his "big days". Then later in life, they shrink. He was about 15.2 when he passed away last year at 31.


That is very true that they shrink. I had a older TB mare who was 16.1 even with a USEF stick on a level concrete pad when I got her. At 27 years old, she was 15.2, same stick and same concrete pad.

[Dune]

I started a thread about this awhile ago and mentioned that I thought it would be a good idea to get pony stallions carded. A LOT of these imported GRP stallions ARE NOT 14.2!!!!!....regardless of the fact that they advertise them as such. :no:

[Daydream Believer]

I guess the fixation with size just amazes me...like the one person said...everyone had to have a 17:2 hander at one point but now people are thankfully looking at smaller horses...smaller at 16-16:2 or so still being very large when a large horse to your breed is 15 hands. Life would be SO much simpler if kids (and adults) could just ride a horse/pony appropriate to their size or age and one inch this way or that way was irrelevant... It would be better for breeders too to have some leeway so the dreaded oversize pony or smaller horse is not a disaster to their pocketbooks. I absolutely hate the term hony and peoples dislike or avoidance of small horses...talk about predjudice! I shudder to think how many wonderful 14:3-15:1 handers have been passed over due to ridiculous size rules or concepts. Pwynn's Teddy has proven that it ain't the size that matters...but the heart and the stride.

[Black Forest]

This has got to be a problem for breeding for jumpers or dressage also, correct? You need as large as possible (or you would like to achieve that)..

Well, no . You do NOT need as large as possible but the US market appears to THINK that you do, hence Warmblood stallions appear to have a curious habit of growing on the plane over....

In fact in Germany they have long realised that oversized horses (frankly anything over 17hh) are NOT that desirable in terms of athletic ability or long term soundness.

I once took the trouble of going through the whole of the selected sires of Germany book and there were a grand total of 3 that were over 1.70 (16.3hh)

Frankly I have a feeling that some stallion owners feel that their stallion won't get the mares if he is advertised at his real (perfectly good size in terms of real, not perceived, athletic ability and performance capacity) hence an inch is added here or there.

VERY few people need a horse over 16.2hh - in fact the majority would be best matched with a 16hh horse, especially ladies. But as long as the market demands Nelly the Elephant ........

[VirginiaBred]

Frankly I have a feeling that some stallion owners feel that their stallion won't get the mares if he is advertised at his real (perfectly good size in terms of real, not perceived, athletic ability and performance capacity) hence an inch is added here or there.........

Or subtracted. Remember the pony breeders.............

Frankly, it's very disturbing to know stallions that are advertised as pony stallions and they most definitely are not.

[poetaperegrinus]

So...these "official" measuring sticks...are they made out of gold? Cause like, for $350, I'd be expecting something awful special...

[Fenway]

I'm all for some kind of official pony stallion height measurement. I think it would be difficult, to say the least, but worth it, IMO. There is enough dishonesty in this business--maybe we can cut down on some of it.

[Black Forest]

Or subtracted. Remember the pony breeders.............

Frankly, it's very disturbing to know stallions that are advertised as pony stallions and they most definitely are not.

Yes, you're absolutely right! With the ponies it is virtually vital !!! I know a "Pony" former jumping mare that holds a lifetime certificate stating that she is 148cm (14.2hh) - when she got wise to the fact that her child-riders could not MAKE her jump round 1.20 m courses she started to refuse reliably (ie never finish a course any more) and was eventually sold to a small lady to do Dressage (and she does that VERY well) Her *REAL* height is a hair under 15.1hh .....

[jilltx]

I guess the fixation with size just amazes me...like the one person said...everyone had to have a 17:2 hander at one point but now people are thankfully looking at smaller horses...smaller at 16-16:2 or so still being very large when a large horse to your breed is 15 hands. Life would be SO much simpler if kids (and adults) could just ride a horse/pony appropriate to their size or age and one inch this way or that way was irrelevant... It would be better for breeders too to have some leeway so the dreaded oversize pony or smaller horse is not a disaster to their pocketbooks. I absolutely hate the term hony and peoples dislike or avoidance of small horses...talk about predjudice! I shudder to think how many wonderful 14:3-15:1 handers have been passed over due to ridiculous size rules or concepts. Pwynn's Teddy has proven that it ain't the size that matters...but the heart and the stride.


:yes:

I understand that it's more important for ponies because there are regulations and limits within their divisions, but some people get REALLY hung up on height, and I've never understood that.

I vividly remember a conversatin on this very board with a breeder who was "not interested" in a mare with GREAT bloodlines and nice conformation who would "fit perfectly" into her breeding program (her words) because she was 15.3 hands and not 16.0. :rolleyes: I mean c'mon!

She eventually bought the mare (and I'm sure would deny the conversation) and appears happy with her.

Is this "height bias" an American thing? I've noticed several of my German and British friends just don't seem as concerned with the height thing. They worry more about good conformation, nice gaits and a good brain as well as being a good match with the rider. :confused:

PS...350.00 for an "OFFICIAL" stick? :eek: Me thinks someone is making quite a profit. For that price I want a USEF official to come with it to make CERTAIN it's being done properly. The stick is, after all, only as accurate as the person doing the measuring.

[pintopiaffe]

The most honest thing a stallion owner can do is to know what their stallion sires.

:yes:

It has been difficult for me to HONESTLY market to pony people because out of a 14h Morab mare my guy sired 16h. (no, really, with a real stick. :lol: ) Since the height is not quantitative, crossed to my 16h mare, he's had a couple of 15.3 & 16, and apparantly one 14.2 (though she was *just* three at that measurment, haven't heard where she is at four.) The Trak mare crossed w/ him same thing, a few big/size of mares, and one smaller.

He does have some rather big horses close up (*Alladdinn, etc.) so it's not all that predictable. BUT--I try to let folks ride him, and feel how big he rides... his kids do too. If they take up your leg and are comfortable, what does the actual height matter? (Except, of course, ponies) We're just really in a 'tween' market, where when I was saying 15h got us more interest. I'll stick with being honest though.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Even with gettign heights correct for the ponies, many grow over. Why does there have to be a "gap" size. Why can't horses be like ponies in Small, Medium, and Large Horse Hunters? And not only for the Adults, but these kids outgrowing their ponies should not have to make the jump over no man's land.

[VirginiaBred]

PS...350.00 for an "OFFICIAL" stick? :eek: Me thinks someone is making quite a profit. For that price I want a USEF official to come with it to make CERTAIN it's being done properly. The stick is, after all, only as accurate as the person doing the measuring.


That was hilarious (and SO true) but I will say we bought out USEF stick from the then AHSA and the stick is still exactly the same.........price and all, and that was almost 15 years ago. No inflation there (and YES, we are talking about the USEF.........faint!). :lol:

[pinecone]

I guess the fixation with size just amazes me...like the one person said...everyone had to have a 17:2 hander at one point but now people are thankfully looking at smaller horses...smaller at 16-16:2 or so still being very large when a large horse to your breed is 15 hands. Life would be SO much simpler if kids (and adults) could just ride a horse/pony appropriate to their size or age and one inch this way or that way was irrelevant...

Not singling out this poster, but wanted to respond to the thinking of this post.

This seems to miss the point about Honesty and Accurate Representation. It is not up to the stallion owner to lie about the height of their stallion because They don't think size matters, because it Might matter to the mare owner, and that is their prerogative.

I might really like pink. You might hate pink, and only have red items for sale. But you can't start calling red items shades of pink so that I'll buy them, or because You think red is better and I Should be buying red instead of pink. It isn't up to You to decide what I should buy. It is the seller's responsibility to accurately represent their product (stallion) and let the buyer decide if that is what they want.

The sad thing about assuming all stallion owners are lying by a couple of inches, is when you apply this reasoning to the HONEST stallion owners, because there are actually still a few of them... Now what are the honest stallion owners supposed to do, if they know everyone is going to assume they are lying and knock off a few inches, should they lie too?

I don't understand the problem with the sticks. I'm with Formosus, double check them with a measuring tape. It's not that complicated to confirm the measurements are correct, and I'm really surprised that supposedly there is that much variation among sticks.

I've seen some crazy creative advertising when it comes to heights. I've seen people put the height the horse "will" be, or even more ridiculous, the height it "should have been", such as "he was a maiden's first foal, he should have been a hand taller". I've also seen smaller warmbloods who weren't successful stallions in the warmblood world, suddenly be reinvented as pony stallions. A 15.2 hand stallion might be "16 hands and he throws big foals" one year, and "15 hands but he throws small foals" the next year.

I suspect people will get tired of the dishonesty, and some sort of system will be devised whereby someone "official" is able to measure a horse and give it a certified height. (Perhaps a veterinarian.) I'm sure all of the DNA requirements came about similarly, from people being dishonest and misrepresenting their horses as registered or a certain bloodline, and enough people got sick of it.

[eqsiu]

Even with gettign heights correct for the ponies, many grow over. Why does there have to be a "gap" size. Why can't horses be like ponies in Small, Medium, and Large Horse Hunters? And not only for the Adults, but these kids outgrowing their ponies should not have to make the jump over no man's land.

That would be nice. Then I would've had a larger market for the 15 hh Hanoverian/TB cross I bred. We used to joke that there was a mix up with the semen, since her mom is 15.2 1/2ish and her dad is 16.1. But she was super cute and flashy.

Why is there such a demand for 17+ hh horses? It seems like people don't think that smaller horses are athletic, but I evented prelim with my mare, no problem.

[Sugarbrook]

Being a pony breeder, and stallion owner I am the BIG stick user. I have two. I check and re-check all my ponies. One is the old fashioned wooden one from years ago and the other is the official one. Frankly I am proud to pull a stick out and measure my stallions. They are as advertised. Everyone needs the USEF stick. Its a must-have item!!!!

[Formosus]

The problem with what people think a horse can do (relative to its size) might just be one quandrant of the viscious circle. If they think a 15.2h horse is actually 16h, and they see a smaller horse (say a 15h horse-that they think is actually 15.2) not making a distance or whatever they think might be attributable to their size. They might say: Jeezz look at that 15.2 h horse struggling! I better get myself a horse that is at LEAST 16h and the viscious circle continues.

I had a 17 hand gelding for sale years ago. Tons of people called. They all wanted to the tall 17 hands horse. Yup that is what they wanted! Absolutly. They would show up at the barn, I would pull George out of the stall and they would gasp! Ueuuhh no, not so interested-he's too tall. WTF! I said he was 17 h!!

I saw Jappeloup in person, stood by him when I was talking to his groom back when he showed at Spruce Meadow in 1993 I think. That horse was about 15.2-I noticed that he was the same higth as my jumper (considerable more scope tho!:) ). Yet commentators or even written article would refer to him as the pony-size jumper. He was almost a full hand taller then a pony people!! But compare to the behemoth he was jumping agains (Big Ben at 17.2) he looked very small. So he was gesstimated to be anywhere from 14.3 to 15.1. Sooo-he could jump just as well.

The reverse happens in the western world where most horses are on the smaller size. A friend was taking lessons on a 15.1 reining horse and the fellow students were impressed that she was riding "the really big horse-isn't he about 16h!?

So as people get the wrong mental picture in their head about what a 16h horse really is they start to make wrong descisions about what they need and the viscious circle continues. I'm with the other posters that say: I stick to the honnest measurement in hope that one day the perceptions will be adjusted toward reality.

[STF]

That is why I always put Blue's height in direct cm. NO iffy "what ifs".... but, 1/2 the people cant do cm conversions!

[VirginiaBred]

The sad thing about assuming all stallion owners are lying by a couple of inches, is when you apply this reasoning to the HONEST stallion owners, because there are actually still a few of them... Now what are the honest stallion owners supposed to do, if they know everyone is going to assume they are lying and knock off a few inches, should they lie too?

No, I don't think any of us are suggesting all stallion owners are lying by a couple of inches. :no:
That is not at all what my original post suggested. I'm saying (and the rest of us are also) that some do.

[Dazednconfused]

:yes:

It has been difficult for me to HONESTLY market to pony people because out of a 14h Morab mare my guy sired 16h. (no, really, with a real stick. :lol: ) Since the height is not quantitative, crossed to my 16h mare, he's had a couple of 15.3 & 16, and apparantly one 14.2 (though she was *just* three at that measurment, haven't heard where she is at four.) The Trak mare crossed w/ him same thing, a few big/size of mares, and one smaller.

He does have some rather big horses close up (*Alladdinn, etc.) so it's not all that predictable. BUT--I try to let folks ride him, and feel how big he rides... his kids do too. If they take up your leg and are comfortable, what does the actual height matter? (Except, of course, ponies) We're just really in a 'tween' market, where when I was saying 15h got us more interest. I'll stick with being honest though.

Aladdinn is like, 14.3. Maybe.

[camohn]

The problem with what people think a horse can do (relative to its size) might just be one quandrant of the viscious circle. If they think a 15.2h horse is actually 16h, and they see a smaller horse (say a 15h horse-that they think is actually 15.2) not making a distance or whatever they think might be attributable to their size. They might say: Jeezz look at that 15.2 h horse struggling! I better get myself a horse that is at LEAST 16h and the viscious circle continues.

I had a 17 hand gelding for sale years ago. Tons of people called. They all wanted to the tall 17 hands horse. Yup that is what they wanted! Absolutly. They would show up at the barn, I would pull George out of the stall and they would gasp! Ueuuhh no, not so interested-he's too tall. WTF! I said he was 17 h!!

I saw Jappeloup in person, stood by him when I was talking to his groom back when he showed at Spruce Meadow in 1993 I think. That horse was about 15.2-I noticed that he was the same higth as my jumper (considerable more scope tho!:) ). Yet commentators or even written article would refer to him as the pony-size jumper. He was almost a full hand taller then a pony people!! But compare to the behemoth he was jumping agains (Big Ben at 17.2) he looked very small. So he was gesstimated to be anywhere from 14.3 to 15.1. Sooo-he could jump just as well.

The reverse happens in the western world where most horses are on the smaller size. A friend was taking lessons on a 15.1 reining horse and the fellow students were impressed that she was riding "the really big horse-isn't he about 16h!?

So as people get the wrong mental picture in their head about what a 16h horse really is they start to make wrong descisions about what they need and the viscious circle continues. I'm with the other posters that say: I stick to the honnest measurement in hope that one day the perceptions will be adjusted toward reality.


I think this is accurate for a lot of folks.
Boomer sticked (with a metal one!) at 16.1H. He was a TB that was not super tall but has a substantial build on him. Folks that came to see him were often SURE he was more than 16.1H. Nope. Then there is the TB that was severely underweigh when she came here. She really is a not insignificant 16.3H, but didn't look it being so thin. Last time our farrier was here he looked at her and said "I know this mare is older and didn't grow but boy she looks big now. I don't remember her being that big." I think she just appears bigger as she no longer looks like an Angelfish. Said farrier is used to doing QHs...so used to generally smaller stockhorses. When he first started doing my young WB mare he thought she was huge. She is a hair under 16H...so smallish by WB standards....but old type build.....so tanker-ette. And then there is my 2 YO TB. He was 15.3 last time I measured him (might be 16H by now) and will be 2 in a couple weeks. Right now he is scrawny looking......long legs, no body.....but Boomer filled out at 5 to be pretty substantial and his momma is a tanker that looks like a WB....so he probably will not end up too delicate or small by 5. SInce the farrier thinks he looks big now he will think he is shoeing a moose in 3 years! Point is....perceptions "eyeballing" height can be skewed.....even with different weight on the same horse like the mare that was really thin.

[goodpony]

Just wanted to say that we have two pony stallions and both were officially measured during USDF competition by the show steward...both are actually card carrying members for the real pony fraternity. I expect that both will be measured again this season and continue to be measured until age eight if they continue to be shown in any pony division.

Misrepresenting height and bone are common in our breed also. It often seems to me that the smaller pony stallions go unused while the 'overhieght' stallions continue to find favor. And there are definitely several stallions on the market now who have shrunk over the years :)

[VirginiaBred]

Frankly I am proud to pull a stick out and measure my stallions. They are as advertised. Everyone needs the USEF stick. Its a must-have item!!!!


:yes:

[cheekyhorse]

This is such a great thread....it took me forever to read through everyone's posts!;) There are some very good points made here. There are so many people that misrepresent the size of their horses and not only stallion owners, but folks with horses for sale as well. It's really unfortunate when someone says their horse is 16.3 and it turns someone off as it maybe is too big for what they want......but then you find out after it sells to someone else, and you see the horse that it is really only 16 hands.......maybe!! I can't believe how many people think their horses are bigger than what they really are. 17 hands is one whopping horse!! I had one that measured that. He was WAY too big for me. :sadsmile:
But there are so many people that don't own a stick!!! This is absolutley a MUST HAVE item in ANY barn!! Thanks for posting this thread!!!:winkgrin:

[Bats79]

Its a bigger problem in Australia with dressage stallions rather than jumping but I think its funny to see the colts "shrink". Many stallions advertised as "expected to mature at 17hh", then a year later at 16.3hh and then finally they mature at 16.2hh. :) Or the people who are convinced that 170cm is 17hh when its actually 16.3hh.

[VirginiaBred]

From what I reading, this is (unfortunately) more common than first thought. It's so deceiving, as so many mare owners are depending on the intregity and honesty of stallion owners to be completely up front with the height of their stallion.
Most of us have a good idea where the breaks in size are (visibly speaking) so we know where 14.2 is, 15 hands, 16 and so on. It's easy to say you need to go see them in person, but not if you live a half a world away, or several states away.

[pinecone]

No, I don't think any of us are suggesting all stallion owners are lying by a couple of inches. :no:
That is not at all what my original post suggested. I'm saying (and the rest of us are also) that some do.

You may not think this is a widespread problem, but may of us do. So even if it's not what you intended in Your post, it is a problem many breeders Have run into. I was responding generally, not to your op specifically.

Formosus makes a great point. Dishonesty is such an issue in regards to misrepresentation of height, people may start to forget what a true 16 hand horse looks like!

The moral of the story is buy a stick and measure your horses, and then honestly represent them using these measurements!:yes:

[pinecone]

From what I reading, this is (unfortunately) more common than first thought.

Yes, this is what we were saying. lol, I responded to your previous post and now I've read further to see this one. Disregard my previous response I suppose!;)

[pwynnnorman]

I must admit that this issue gets me frothing at the mouth a bit, but not because of SOs.

People, what the heck are our "associations" supposed to do for us if not to resolve problems like this?????? :mad::mad:

Why don't these new registeries take some initiative and provide a measurement recording service--and make it required of all mature breeding stock being inspected? Heck, they could CHARGE for it and make some money, too. That way, mares and stallions of mature ages could be some "official" height without having to show to be measured, right? And then, too, there would be a record over the years and generations so that, eventually, the registeries would be HELPING BREEDERS produce what they desire more consistently. I mean, isn't that the point?

And the same applies to hunters: Why can't stewards at shows measure ponies who are not competing? There has to be a vet there anyway and there are other ways to get around cheating issues (like taking blood tests of non-showing horses--even doing soundness exams on them, if necessary). It would be a fee-for-service, after all--and isn't that what our "associations" are supposed to provide us with, SERVICES? So, provide the service of measuring non-showing ponies so that breeders can establish the size of breeding stock if they choose to. Charge us for it, but DO IT. It needs to be done!

And how many centuries are going to have to pass before that "hony" division comes about? EVERYONE wants it, except the trainers and breeders who get the seats on the USHJA committees and can make killings off of selling the "right" sizes. My word, the whole hunter size thing is as much as example of artificially propped up markets as selling ostrich eggs in the nineties was. Everyone knows it isn't height but stride that makes the distances, but there is not one leader in our sport willing to do what it takes to get rid of the misconception (often sold as a bill of goods to inexperienced, uber-wealthy parents) and the gaping measurement hole.

I wish we had the courage and coordination to go on strike. I wish pony breeders could get together and boycott the big shows' breeding divisions (or threaten to) and maybe simultaneously boycott inspections to get this issue addressed once and for all. Just the threat would probably get the power people to finally pay attention, I think...but they know we'll never get together enough to have real clout in ANY of our "associations."

Think about it: What fact better illustrates disfunctional, politics-ridden, vested-interest driven, apathetic and/or intimidated/fearful member-based "associations" than PERPETUAL PROBLEMS, i.e. issues that everyone recognizes but go unresolved, decade after decade after decade. SHAME on all the committees and organizations who could and should address this. SHAME ON YOU ALL!!! :mad::mad:

[exvet]

I wish we had the courage and coordination to go on strike. I wish pony breeders could get together and boycott the big shows' breeding divisions (or threaten to) and maybe simultaneously boycott inspections to get this issue addressed once and for all. Just the threat would probably get the power people to finally pay attention, I think...but they know we'll never get together enough to have real clout in ANY of our "associations."

Considering who a few of those that are the "power people" in the associations of which you speak are the same people who benefit immensely from these "artificially propped up markets" it is very, very unlikely that they would do anything to destroy what they have worked so hard to set up, institutionalize and benefit from. Don't get me wrong because I agree with you wholeheartedly on several points that you make and suggestions as to how to improve/rectify the situation. I just know having spoken with or dealt with a few of the individuals personally - no holes barred and gloves off - that you will need more than boycotts or even a changing of the guard to effect change.

[PineTreeFarm]

And the same applies to hunters: Why can't stewards at shows measure ponies who are not competing? There has to be a vet there anyway and there are other ways to get around cheating issues (like taking blood tests of non-showing horses--even doing soundness exams on them, if necessary). It would be a fee-for-service, after all--and isn't that what our "associations" are supposed to provide us with, SERVICES? So, provide the service of measuring non-showing ponies so that breeders can establish the size of breeding stock if they choose to. Charge us for it, but DO IT. It needs to be done!


USEF offers a measurement card as a SERVICE to it's MEMBERS. So if you want a pony measured you need the pony recorded with USEF and the owner needs to be a member. It needs to be entered because it needs to be under the control of the assoc. and the show rules.
There is nothing in the measurement rule that say the pony needs to actually compete in the show it's being measured at. Simply enter the pony in something, get it measured and scratch.

[pwynnnorman]

I have had plenty of ponies measured, Pine Tree. Your quickness to over-simplify issues and negativity about what is faced in the practical sense is just what prevents us from ever making progress. Why do you do that?

For example, why not record the pony on-the-spot? Heck, take a digitial picture of it while you're at it. And if it's not showing, why need it be under show rules anyway? Establish a set of rules for measuring ponies regardless of whether they show or not, eliminate the unnecessary paperwork, use the technology available and let people GET ON WITH IT. Sheesh, it's not rocket science!

[WhatzUp]

Hello,

This must be quite common these days because when people see
Tacorde they say "He MUST be 18/19 hands !!" - yes - after
they have seen some other 17.2 HH stallions. He IS 17.2 HH.
(http://www.kvf.ca/tacorde.htm (http://www.kvf.ca/tacorde.htm)) The other stallions are also
truly the height they are advertised at.

For example, The Canadian Sport Horse Association does perform
an Official stallion measurement and this is recorded and publicized.
The Canadian Warmblood Association does not.

Yours in sport,

Lynn

[CuriosoJorge]

Wynn, they have to be entered so that the drug rules apply. Otherwise, you could trim the pony's feet to nubs and get it measured, even if it's really too big. I disagree with you; I don't think it is the USEF's responsibility to provide measurement services to nonmembers, whether they are breeders or people who are just curious about what size their pony is.

But then again, I don't think there is a need for a hony division, either, so I must not be EVERYONE.

The people who show in pony hunter breeding are not the people who go to inspections, so your boycott would not necessarily have the effect you desire.

[PineTreeFarm]

I have had plenty of ponies measured, Pine Tree. Your quickness to over-simplify issues and negativity about what is faced in the practical sense is just what prevents us from ever making progress. Why do you do that?

For example, why not record the pony on-the-spot? Heck, take a digitial picture of it while you're at it. And if it's not showing, why need it be under show rules anyway? Establish a set of rules for measuring ponies regardless of whether they show or not, eliminate the unnecessary paperwork, use the technology available and let people GET ON WITH IT. Sheesh, it's not rocket science!

Your OP gives the impression you didn't know that you could get a pony measured without showing. I rather thought your post was negative itself.

There already is a set of rules for measuring ponies, they apply to all, showing or not.

Yes, you can record a horse/pony at a show.

As Curioso mentioned you need to be under Federation rules to get a Federation card. It makes sense to me.

About hony classes. We tried that for many years, Nobody ever showed up so I guess not EVERYONE is interested in the division.

We also we have a 2'6" division open to horses and ponies. Same height, same distances for all. No hony's enter this division either. So who is EVERYONE?

[VirginiaBred]

At a horse show this weekend a few folks were discussing this thread and told me that there is more of a problem with large pony stallions that aren't large ponies, but advertised as such!