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Blogs - COTH Staff Blog - Beth Rasin

December 12, 2013

A Bill Of Sale: Too Much To Ask?

Yes, said those gathered at the U.S. Hunter Jumper Association convention, Dec. 8-12 in Atlanta.

It was meant to be so simple, but I don’t think there was any issue with more confusion surrounding it than the bill of sale rule change proposal (GR702.1n).

The end result: the proposal was withdrawn at the USHJA Board of Directors meeting on Dec. 12. But that’s not the end of the story.

Comments

csmorris
45 weeks 1 day ago

Bill of Sale

If the owners are not receiving a bill of sale, why do they continue to do business with that trainer? Obviously good business sense means having a bill of sale, so why continue to have to beg for one? If one is not offered prior to the sale and transfer of money, walk away from the transaction. I don't think that having this in the rule book is the right place for it - USEF has made it clear in the past that they do not get involved in ownership disputes - but perhaps the education aspect needs improvement.
Linn
45 weeks 8 hours ago

How is the sale even

How is the sale even considered legally complete if there is no bill of sale? On the other hand, I can't believe how simplistic the USEF ownership transfer form is. The stock horse breed associations require addresses, phone numbers, and email addresses on their transfer reports, but then again they must also mail in the horse's registration certificate so the new owner can be recorded on the certificate. As someone who spends time tracking down USEF competition history on several horses per year, I am frustrated with the shortcomings of the USEF website compared to how quickly I can negotiate the AQHA and APHA systems and find the information I need, with data going back decades. I agree that the current USEF transfer form does not require enough information, but I draw the line at reporting a horse's selling price and any commission fees. Yes, price disputes happen (too frequently in my opinion) but this is not the way to attempt to enforce what should be a common business practice.
Inner Bay
44 weeks 4 days ago

Bill of Sales proposal

As a member of one of many USHJA committees that examined this proposal, and as someone who was in attendance in Atlanta and spoke about several aspects of it, I'm somewhat concerned at the direction this discussion (sparked by the rather provocative headline running over the COTH story-- i.e. "A Bill of Sale: Too Much To Ask?") has taken. Debbie Bass is to be commended for bringing this issue to everyone's attention of all USHJA/USEF members. My own observation is that there is widespread, strong, practically universal support of the concept that no sales transaction should take place without a formally written Bill of Sale (a few thought that giveaways shouldn't be included, while others thought they should be). In fact, I have heard no one speak against the notion that a Bill of Sale should be an integral part of the purchase or transfer of a horse from one owner to another. That doesn't automatically mean that the knee jerk response should be to support a proposed USEF rule that: 1) arguably oversteps the purview of the mission statement of either the USHJA or the USEF 2) is not able to be enforced 3) does not contain any requirements to ensure compliance in advance of a dispute 4) does not provide for recourse by either party in the event of a disagreement 5) cannot account for transactions taking place between individuals that are not members of any discipline group or of USEF 6) should not be construed as a substantial protection against abuse of existing state statutes covering contract/sales/fiduciary matters. None of the above concerns should IN ANY WAY be regarded as a feeling that owners and trainers involved in a sale transaction should not execute a Bill of Sale, which provides protection to all parties to the agreement, not just owners. It's worth noting that normally the only parties to a Bill of Sale are the old owner and the new owner, not trainers, not agents, not middlemen. A Bill of Sale is not always a comprehensive sales agreement executed at the level of detail sought for the purposes of this rule change. But a simple Bill of Sale is already one of several acceptable proofs of ownership asked for when submitting a change of ownership to USEF. And the USEF already has on the books rules which allow for the suspension of individuals found guilty by courts of law. Legal protections can be invoked by owners who insist they will not enter into a transaction without a Bill of Sale. And reputable, honest trainers will not mind seeing to it that an owner and buyer are both provided with one during the course of a sale transaction. The problem is that even if the sentiment behind it is laudable, the proposed rule itself is defective in many ways, and therefore not supportable in the opinion of many intelligent people (who raised their hands against it when asked); this doesn't mean they are 'against owners.' In short, the answer to the sensational headline is equivocally: "NO, IT'S NOT TOO MUCH TO ASK," but there are other, more efficient, more proper, and most importantly, more effective ways to go about it than a weakly written USEF rule. As the Owner's Committee meeting concluded, a list of action items was generated at the direction of USEF President Chrystine Tauber, who was in attendance. These items (educational and awareness initiatives regarding proper sales practices, and consequences that could result from legal judgements) are likely to be much more effective at achieving the aims of the proposal's proponents than the rule, if passed, could be. It's also worth noting that Bills of Sale can result in exposure of the parties to it to state sales tax liability…this in itself is a can of worms that few wanted to touch…but could be a related and unexpected consequence of a mandatory requirement. Mary O'Connor (NY / VA) USEF r H/J/HEq since 1992 USHJA Certified Trainer
December 12, 2013

A Bill Of Sale: Too Much To Ask?

Yes, said those gathered at the U.S. Hunter Jumper Association convention, Dec. 8-12 in Atlanta.

It was meant to be so simple, but I don’t think there was any issue with more confusion surrounding it than the bill of sale rule change proposal (GR702.1n).

The end result: the proposal was withdrawn at the USHJA Board of Directors meeting on Dec. 12. But that’s not the end of the story.

Comments

csmorris
45 weeks 1 day ago

Bill of Sale

If the owners are not receiving a bill of sale, why do they continue to do business with that trainer? Obviously good business sense means having a bill of sale, so why continue to have to beg for one? If one is not offered prior to the sale and transfer of money, walk away from the transaction. I don't think that having this in the rule book is the right place for it - USEF has made it clear in the past that they do not get involved in ownership disputes - but perhaps the education aspect needs improvement.
Linn
45 weeks 8 hours ago

How is the sale even

How is the sale even considered legally complete if there is no bill of sale? On the other hand, I can't believe how simplistic the USEF ownership transfer form is. The stock horse breed associations require addresses, phone numbers, and email addresses on their transfer reports, but then again they must also mail in the horse's registration certificate so the new owner can be recorded on the certificate. As someone who spends time tracking down USEF competition history on several horses per year, I am frustrated with the shortcomings of the USEF website compared to how quickly I can negotiate the AQHA and APHA systems and find the information I need, with data going back decades. I agree that the current USEF transfer form does not require enough information, but I draw the line at reporting a horse's selling price and any commission fees. Yes, price disputes happen (too frequently in my opinion) but this is not the way to attempt to enforce what should be a common business practice.
Inner Bay
44 weeks 4 days ago

Bill of Sales proposal

As a member of one of many USHJA committees that examined this proposal, and as someone who was in attendance in Atlanta and spoke about several aspects of it, I'm somewhat concerned at the direction this discussion (sparked by the rather provocative headline running over the COTH story-- i.e. "A Bill of Sale: Too Much To Ask?") has taken. Debbie Bass is to be commended for bringing this issue to everyone's attention of all USHJA/USEF members. My own observation is that there is widespread, strong, practically universal support of the concept that no sales transaction should take place without a formally written Bill of Sale (a few thought that giveaways shouldn't be included, while others thought they should be). In fact, I have heard no one speak against the notion that a Bill of Sale should be an integral part of the purchase or transfer of a horse from one owner to another. That doesn't automatically mean that the knee jerk response should be to support a proposed USEF rule that: 1) arguably oversteps the purview of the mission statement of either the USHJA or the USEF 2) is not able to be enforced 3) does not contain any requirements to ensure compliance in advance of a dispute 4) does not provide for recourse by either party in the event of a disagreement 5) cannot account for transactions taking place between individuals that are not members of any discipline group or of USEF 6) should not be construed as a substantial protection against abuse of existing state statutes covering contract/sales/fiduciary matters. None of the above concerns should IN ANY WAY be regarded as a feeling that owners and trainers involved in a sale transaction should not execute a Bill of Sale, which provides protection to all parties to the agreement, not just owners. It's worth noting that normally the only parties to a Bill of Sale are the old owner and the new owner, not trainers, not agents, not middlemen. A Bill of Sale is not always a comprehensive sales agreement executed at the level of detail sought for the purposes of this rule change. But a simple Bill of Sale is already one of several acceptable proofs of ownership asked for when submitting a change of ownership to USEF. And the USEF already has on the books rules which allow for the suspension of individuals found guilty by courts of law. Legal protections can be invoked by owners who insist they will not enter into a transaction without a Bill of Sale. And reputable, honest trainers will not mind seeing to it that an owner and buyer are both provided with one during the course of a sale transaction. The problem is that even if the sentiment behind it is laudable, the proposed rule itself is defective in many ways, and therefore not supportable in the opinion of many intelligent people (who raised their hands against it when asked); this doesn't mean they are 'against owners.' In short, the answer to the sensational headline is equivocally: "NO, IT'S NOT TOO MUCH TO ASK," but there are other, more efficient, more proper, and most importantly, more effective ways to go about it than a weakly written USEF rule. As the Owner's Committee meeting concluded, a list of action items was generated at the direction of USEF President Chrystine Tauber, who was in attendance. These items (educational and awareness initiatives regarding proper sales practices, and consequences that could result from legal judgements) are likely to be much more effective at achieving the aims of the proposal's proponents than the rule, if passed, could be. It's also worth noting that Bills of Sale can result in exposure of the parties to it to state sales tax liability…this in itself is a can of worms that few wanted to touch…but could be a related and unexpected consequence of a mandatory requirement. Mary O'Connor (NY / VA) USEF r H/J/HEq since 1992 USHJA Certified Trainer
October 10, 2013

What's Not For Sale

Let’s admit it, most of us have had a horse or two we’ve been glad to see go. And maybe we’ve had a horse we wouldn’t let go. But most horses fall somewhere in the middle. There will come a time for them to leave our barns, but when is it and how do you know?

October 10, 2013

What's Not For Sale

Let’s admit it, most of us have had a horse or two we’ve been glad to see go. And maybe we’ve had a horse we wouldn’t let go. But most horses fall somewhere in the middle. There will come a time for them to leave our barns, but when is it and how do you know?

July 11, 2013

New Owner, New Future, Same Product

When I heard that Mark Bellissimo, best known in the horse world as managing partner of Wellington Equestrian Partners, had expressed interest in purchasing the Chronicle, I was intrigued—and, at first, a bit worried.

July 11, 2013

New Owner, New Future, Same Product

When I heard that Mark Bellissimo, best known in the horse world as managing partner of Wellington Equestrian Partners, had expressed interest in purchasing the Chronicle, I was intrigued—and, at first, a bit worried.

January 28, 2013

From Ponies To Parenthood: Education

Mane and tail free of dandruff? Check. Saddle pad stunningly white? Check. Boots shining from across the showgrounds? Of course.

Through ratings, training and competition, the U.S. Pony Clubs carefully and methodically trained me to do their bidding. My horse will eat from a properly sterilized bucket, with the double-ended snap turned inward lest he rip an eyelid, and his sheath will pass ye olde glove test as he stands in non-edible, non-irritating bedding.

So why do the (arguably) more important things in life come with no instructions?

December 13, 2012

Life Changes When There's A Princess In The House

I was warned this would happen. I’ve been invited to a Princess Party.

Well, not me, but my 3-year-old daughter, who needs a driver.

For most of my adult life, my weekends have fallen into one of three categories: compete a horse; go to see a horse for sale or present a horse who is for sale; or do random catch-up farm work like getting in hay, cleaning stall mats, etc. Decorating tiaras? Not so much.

December 13, 2012

Life Changes When There's A Princess In The House

I was warned this would happen. I’ve been invited to a Princess Party.

Well, not me, but my 3-year-old daughter, who needs a driver.

For most of my adult life, my weekends have fallen into one of three categories: compete a horse; go to see a horse for sale or present a horse who is for sale; or do random catch-up farm work like getting in hay, cleaning stall mats, etc. Decorating tiaras? Not so much.