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February 8, 2010

Ulterior Motives

By: Catherine Haddad Staller
Photo by Julia Wentscher
 
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Dear Rita,

You know, sometimes when I sit down to write, I have to admit to having ulterior motives. I don't know if y'all noticed, but the FEI is meeting at Lausanne today to discuss Rollkür. This controversy has become insanely heated on both sides with rational thinking and logical argument mostly thrown out the window.

Both sides of this battle are fixating on the position of the neck, which seems to miss the point. As I showed in the video, a good rider can position the neck just about anywhere (within limits) without doing harm. The FEI needs to make this point clear for the sake of the sport.

By the way, positions on the subject tend to gravitate to the old battle lines of WWII. ;-) Politics run deep.

While I have direct access to the representatives of the IDRC and the IDTC who will be attending the meeting today, sometimes a public blog carries more credibility than a private opinion. So I’m happy to have a sane place to discuss this subject openly. Let’s keep it sane.

Also, I really did want to know if anyone was paying attention.

So thank you all for ASKING!!! I thought that somebody might ask me for a clearer message about that short little video clip.

For those of you wondering with quiet venom why I have joined the Pro-Low-Down-Round group on Facebook, stay tuned! That blog is coming soon.

Please inform all forum friends that I don't have time to browse the cyber world. So if they have questions about ANYTHING relating to dressage, I will try to give answers here—at this blog—if I can. But if they don't ask their questions here, I may not see them.

And, be patient! When this horrific weather warms up, I promise you a video of the Accordion played from behind the saddle and completely through the horse. Just can't ask that in these cold temperatures, because I'm riding very conservatively at the moment. My poor horses!

Also, that kind of riding is not relevant to today’s discussion in Lausanne. When people are foaming at the mouth, it is best to keep it simple so that they are not frightened by their own reflection in the mirror.

I do know most of the people who will be involved in that discussion today. They are capable people. Let’s hope they get us out of this mess.

I’m Catherine Haddad, and I’m saying like it is from Vechta, Germany.

Training Tip of the Day: Over time, the muscle tone of the horse’s neck will match the muscle tone of the rider’s arms.

http://internationaldressage.com/

 

tagged in:
Blogger Catherine Haddad Staller
ErinBush
1 year 51 weeks ago
Editing/Deleting comments
Hey, you've all inadvertently helped us find a system bug that allows some users the ability to edit/delete their own comments, but not others. We're in the process of fixing this. Sorry for the... Read More
michelle
1 year 51 weeks ago
I see it was a typo but that
I see it was a typo but that is odd since the first press release was correct.  Wonder why they had to retype the press release to get it on the website we never had to do that.  LOL Read More
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Comments

equipoize
1 year 52 weeks ago

tip

Training Tip of the Day: Over time, the muscle tone of the horse’s neck will match the muscle tone of the rider’s arms.

 

I am assuming you mean this to mean that if a rider keeps a Soft arm, then the neck will remain soft?  Because it would be possible to misread this to think that strong arms will create a desired strong neck?  There is really much more here than initially meets the eye, and in fact, this is a very true and very solid comment.  Thank you. 

On the other topic - positioning of the neck - while it might seem possible to position the neck wherever the rider wants 'without doing harm' I would ask, but does it do Good?  If so, how so?  Especially the extreme postures where the nose touches the chest, or the rider's toe?  How are these postures productive?  Because I hear so many people speak of 'neck control' and yet, I do not hear real explanations of the benefits.  It seems that Hyperflexing any joint causes a gradual over stretching of the ligaments and tendons that support that joint.  Sort of like when your mother told you not to crack your knuckles.  I know the acrobats at Cirque du Solie are capable of incredible feats of back bending and odd postures, but I don't think that those sort of stretches are useful for anything Other than being able to touch your top of your head with the bottom of your foot.  I don't see ballerinas doing excessive stretches, or any form of  Hyperflexions. 

Now, I do want to say that your video does NOT demonstrate any form of Hyperflexion, and I don't think anyone is asking FEI to limit the use of reasonable postures that your horse demonstrates.  But just because those neck positionings are acceptable doesn't mean ALL neck positionings are acceptable, or even good or useful to the horse.  Even you say " a good rider can position the neck just about anywhere (within limits) without doing harm." so where ARE the limits? 

I believe that aggressive hyperflexion does not belong in the warm up ring . I cannot tell riders at any level what to do in their own yards - but if poling can be banned for jumpers on FEI show sites, i think extreme prolonged hyperflexion can also be banned on show grounds.  'Excessive spurring' is cause for carding from the steward - but this didn't ban spurs, just their misuse. I honestly think that the stewards can see when someone has crossed the line - but up until now, the FEI has failed to support their cards, so they have given up issuing them. IF the FEI will come up with guidelines that indicate how far is too far, and then be willing to back up their stewards, the problem will be solved - at least as far as the show grounds, and public perception. As far as how these people continue to train at home, well, there is a lot of training I don't agree with.

Dispite what some are saying about me, I have not trashed your video - I have said it didn't show what I expected, and honestly, given my opinion of you as a representative of classic training, I was expecting something other than what you showed. I understand at this point, it was only your goal to present the range of neck postures you might use in a show ring warm up - not in context, and you were not using them to actually achieve a goal - just sort of running through the motions.   That is fari enough. 

Obviously, we have some personal differences of opinion about the effectiveness of deep and over round, but you are quite successful with what you do, and i don't have a problem with it. You are welcome to your own riding path as it is done with tact and kindness. Discussion and differences of opinion are a normal healthy part of horsemanship, and the more different ways a rider has to approach each individual horse's training, the more likely success will come.

I do think you should be aware of how many people preceive the LDR OK group. But no one is purely defined by the company they keep.

I hope you will continue with your blog, and at least you now know that people ARE reading, and discussing. And I am very interested to hear more about why Herr Schultheis said you must come alone!!! I admire your courage and honesty - rare traits these days.  Monica
Catherine Haddad
1 year 52 weeks ago

Big sigh

Monica,  I am happy to answer all questions if you agree to read my answers and not go comment on another forum as though you never did.  Let's try to be correct in this shady area called the Blogosphere.

1) About the tip.  It means what it says. If you want your horse to have a strong, tense neck, then ride  him with strong tense arms.  If you want him to have a soft, supple neck, then ride him with soft,supple arms. I will leave it up to you to determine your own preference.

2) The purpose of positioning the neck is to ride the horse better through from behind, or to create more carrying power, or to get the withers up when coupled with engagement, or to relax the back, or to ride the horse through one lateral flexion or another.... I could write books on this subject.

3)  I have shown you already on the video clip the limits of the frame within which I find it acceptable to train dressage horses.

4)  If we have a difference of opinion on the "effectiveness of deep and over round" could you please share with all of us what you believe my opinion to be?  I don't believe I have ever written or spoken about that.

Best regards,  Catherine
equipoize
1 year 51 weeks ago

Since you ask

Hello Catherine -

I am sorry you feel that I don't read your replies, I do, and I think about them carefully.  I am also wiling to fully abstain from the UDBB discussion - and keep this conversation here. 

You say

 If we have a difference of opinion on the "effectiveness of deep and over round" could you please share with all of us what you believe my opinion to be?  I don't believe I have ever written or spoken about that.

And you also say

The purpose of positioning the neck is to ride the horse better through from behind, or to create more carrying power, or to get the withers up when coupled with engagement, or to relax the back, or to ride the horse through one lateral flexion or another.... I could write books on this subject.

And this is exactly what I base my belief of your opinion on. You state your position very clearly, and you demonstrate it well in your video.  I believe I understand what you were trying to communicate.  On the other hand,  I think that essentially, there is a neutral posture for the horse's neck that represents a position where all the bracing and blocking is released.  Anything beyond that is not helpful to the horse - in my opinion.  So, For Me, with the trainers I choose to work with, I do not put the neck up and down, left and right.  I want the horse to find a good horizontal balance, and then I don't fuss with the head at all.  I use exercise Like the accordian, but with the focus on really changing the length and shape of the horses stride so that the shape of the top line extends or collects, not just altering the position of the neck, or lateral work to address all three joints of the hind leg, and as the horse shifts his balance rearward, his shoulders will become more free, and that will get the horse better through from behind, with more carrying power and the withers up.  Relaxing the back would be allowing periods of stretch - Low with a rounded top line, but the nose always reaching forward, within the physical limits of the horse of course.  (which is sort of returning to the accordian exercise - develop collection for a few steps, then return to neutral, then collect again, then neutral, then even a long stretch - "lather, rinse, repeat".  ;) 

I hope I have been as successful in stating my position, as you were in stating yours.  I have found your writing to  be honest, clear and direct.  It doesn't mean I agree with it all, but I think you are doing very well with your blog, and of course your riding success. 

Please realize, I live in a real dressage waste land, and I cherish the opportunity to watch other riders, and learn from videos, and it is even better when I can discuss what I see, or think I see.  Which is where all this started. 

Just a test to confirm editing is possible.  mw

 
michelle
1 year 52 weeks ago

FYI

medicine has proven knuckle cracking does no harm to the joints...this coming from a life long knuckle cracker.  Not saying anything about RK but just had to give a little piece of knowledge that has affected my life. LOL  little bit of useless knowledge.
swgarasu
1 year 52 weeks ago

On trolls...

I'm not sure how much internet experience you have, but it seems the trolls are already flocking.  I get that hyperflexion is a hot topic but I hope that your blog doesn't get too bogged down with that.  I think you must have many interesting and educational things to talk about, and I hope we get to read them. 

And yes, I am using a nick- I would have no problem with you knowing who I am (not that it would mean anything), but these comments are public.  I am not ashamed of what I say, I simply prefer to avoid solicitation or harassment.

Good luck and thanks for blogging. 
michelle
1 year 52 weeks ago

Thank you Swgarasu this is my

Thank you Swgarasu this is my worry as well.
Catherine Haddad
1 year 52 weeks ago

Trolls

Don't worry, Ladies!  I have seen "Lord of the Rings"! (Or was that Orcs?) 

 :-) Catherine
Catherine Haddad
1 year 52 weeks ago

FEI Decision

And by the way, I am tinkled pink about the FEI's statement today. Halleluejah!  Logic and common sense prevail! 

Now it is time for educating the stewards....

 
AngieF
1 year 51 weeks ago

FEI statement

 

Do you think the FEI went far enough with their statement?  They said that aggressive force is unacceptable.  But is it not possible for hyperflexion to be achieved without what appears to be aggressive force? 

I have never been face-to-face with hyperflexion, but imagine that a skilled rider could achieve it without aggressive force.  Horses have long demonstrated their submissiveness as well as their desire to please.   So, a rider that puts a horse into a hyperflexion frame without what seems to be aggressive force will be allowed to continue?

I value your opinion and candor, and am pleased to have a venue to find common sense answers.
Catherine Haddad
1 year 51 weeks ago

Legitimacy

Unfortunately Angie,  I think the scenario you have put forth may often occur at the warm up.  But the FEI is slowly forming a basis for legitimite warnings.   Before this decision came down, it was difficult to for a steward to stand up to any trainer or rider who aggressively used hyperflexion.  At least over here, I think the Stewards will now be able to "call for back up" in the form of another Steward or Judge if they find agressive behavior going on. 

Frankly (and I believe fairly), yellow cards are rarely needed for aggressive riding.  The situation is usually taken care of by a Steward who warns the coach or rider to cool down, then everybody backs off.  I have seen this happen 4 or 5 times over the years. 

I hope that this procedure will now also apply to riders who are using extreme flexion with aggression.  They seemed a bit outside the realm of control before this decision.  We will see what happens now....

Catherine

 
fiona 2
1 year 51 weeks ago

Just so you know....

Edited by request of original poster.

Know your Troll. lesson one!

I am looking forward to the dialogue, good luck!
michelle
1 year 51 weeks ago

Troll

So a troll is someone that does not see it as you do?  Just because someone is passionate about something does not make them a troll.  I understand their passion because I felt that kind of passion about Sarah Palin(and it wasn't because I was for her, LOL).   There are many great horseman that think sticking a horses nose on its chest for a long period of time (I've seen it done for more than a half an hour by a top rider) is mentally abusive not to mention possibly physically harmful .  I don't know what the answer is but I understand how both sides could be passionate about this subject but calling them trolls is just wrong.  The one thing I do know is the other side is more passionate and after seeing what they have done with dog legislation I would not be celebrating just yet because the fat lady hasn't sung on this subject.  JMO
chisamba
1 year 51 weeks ago

@ fiona- just so you know

An "Internet troll" or "Forum Troll" or "Message Board Troll" is a person who posts outrageous message to bait people to answer. Forum Troll delights in sowing discord on the forums.  A troll is someone who inspires flaming rhetoric, someone who is purposely provoking and pulling people into flaming discussion.  Flaming discussions usually end with name calling and a flame war.

I think you qualify.  Note to self, do not respond to the trolls.

 
chisamba
1 year 51 weeks ago

re: hallelujah

I am glad that there was a definition of RK /HK and hopefully, as you say, one that stewards can clearly understand.  Force can also be much debated, how much whip is too much, how much spur is too much, and how much hand is too much, it is of course a matter of opinion, and hopefully the stewards will be able to have clear guidelines!

YES ! it is good to see that something positive came of the round table!
chisamba
1 year 51 weeks ago

May I ask a question regarding frame

Catherine,

On one hand, I train a little quarter horse for a client, and he wants to be downhill all the time, and benefits very little from a low position of the neck as shuts off his shoulder, and feels like he digs a whole with every stride.

On the other hand, I believe a horse that is built very uphill, and wants to carry its head very high, can benefit from being ridden down and round.  This would encourage linking the movement of the hind end, through the back, and base of the neck to the hand.  However a backward movement of the hand is going to inhibit the forward step of the legs so one would still want to ride the horse forward into the contact. ( i have an american saddlebred cross that I am training, and she can carry her head high, and poll high, and be very flat and still in the back).  Would you consider this to be mostly accurate?

The ultimate goal however would not to be to stay there, but to be able be to point the horses nose where you want the front foot to go, so to encourage free use of the shoulder one would want the horse to open its gullet with a round topline, to get a free round and lengthened stride. Since the horse should be equally engaged from behind, you would also want to open the gullet to get the horse to bend its hind end and step under more effectively.

Am I correct?  It is what i try to achieve with my upper level horses, and what I aim for with my lower level horses.

In a progression of answering my own question... If I am correct, then closing the neck completely to the chest would seem to be counter productive in allowing the energy that has been produced by engaging the hind, and permeating the body, because it would shut down the shoulder and the ultimate expression of the energy in forward momentum.  I have found that my horse will at times evade in the piaffe by becoming too round and then feels stuck, and lacking in expression.

 Therefore riding too deep  would seem to be designed to neutralize the shoulder, and expression of the horses gaits to gain control in a situation where the horse is likely to become explosive, or dramatically resistant.  In my experience, i cannot imagine a long term benefit for a very closed position. I can count the horses I have ridden in FEI levels on one hand, and none of them were the exceptionally talented horses that you top riders have to work with so I have never pulled a horses head and neck back into a position where they appear to be biting their chest.  However a very talented horse is capable of being very talented in the expression of fear or disobedience , as well as in the expression of dressage :). Is this why some of the top riders seem to ride in a very closed position at times?

I would appreciate if you would point out what might be correct and what might be wrong in my thinking. I shall not take offense, I am trying to learn, and as a compliment to you, you seem to be open minded and not ready to dramatically take a side without reason.

Thank you, Marion.
Catherine Haddad
1 year 51 weeks ago

30 years ago...

Marion,  I think that your understanding of this subject is absolutely correct and if you had been writing 30 years ago I would not even begin to think, "but..."

However, times have changed.  The biggest influence on our sport has been breeding.  We do not ride the same types of horses today that were ridden 30 years ago.  Take Ahlerich, Gaugan de Lullly, Walk on Top, Corlandus and all of your points would hold true.

But dressage breeders continue to create hotter, more elastic, more expressive, lighter boned horses than ever before.  Get one with the right conformation and you can put it's nose on it's chest WITHOUT restricting anything, let alone the shoulder.   Look at Totilas!

I'm not saying that riding lower and deeper is needed for every horse, I'm saying that riders are using it to adapt to the horses they ride.  If you really want to know what I mean, go buy yourself a talented 3yr old by Jazz.  Report back to me in 6 months.  Believe me, if you are still alive you will be singing another tune!

I buy horses not only for their talent, but because they fit my riding style.  Catherine
chisamba
1 year 51 weeks ago

@ catherine, re Jazz offspring.

Most of my horses came directly from the kill pen, and are being rehabilitated to serve as wonderful horses for average folks, so i suppose my training methods are still appropriate for them. It is of particular satisfaction for me to occasionaly beat a fabulous warmblood on a horse that would have been in a dog food can if it were not for my intervention.

 I got a filly a few years ago, she had been thirty hours on a cattle truck, stuffed in with a herd of horses going to slaughter.  She had never had her feet trimmed, had pnuemonia, and a wound bone deep on her cannon bone.  She was not even halter trained.  I placed a close second on her to a very nice warmblood, last show season in first level. The judge actually asked me if the two horses were related.  I was thrilled.  Perhaps even more excited then the score I got on my fouth level horse, who won.

My attempts at olympic greatness were forstalled by political embargo for a decade around thirty years ago but i am content with my current contribution to dressage at the very basic level. So, no Jazz offspring, or totilas relatives in my future :)

 

 
chisamba
1 year 51 weeks ago

Yellow Cards

GREAT idea.  Perhaps also a system where a number of yellow cards within a year equal a red card and suspension for a big show, or period of time!
Catherine Haddad
1 year 51 weeks ago

language

Fiona,  Please try to get your point across with less graphic description.  I know that people are very passionate about this subject.  They are also just as fervent here in Germany.  Members of the european dressage community read this blog.

So please, try to be a bit geographically sensitive.  Remember, I live in Germany.  There is a previous concentration camp only twenty minutes from here.  And believe me, certain horrors cannot be  compared. 

Catherine
fiona 2
1 year 51 weeks ago

Hi Catherine Those aren't my

Hi Catherine

Those aren't my words

- they are quotes from some of the people that you're entering into dialogue with here that have been posting just those sentiments for months. Some think it's perfectly justifiable and acceptable to use those analogies and repeat them ad nauseum.

I'm glad you find the comparison horrific, and now you know the sort of people you are innocently chatting with. 

 

 

 

 
Catherine Haddad
1 year 51 weeks ago

culpability

Fiona Harrisson,  These words become your own when you repeat them.  Be careful with their power.  I would find it very kind and understanding of you if you would remove them from my blog.  Thank you, Catherine Haddad
fiona 2
1 year 51 weeks ago

Hi I can't - i already tried,

Hi

I can't - i already tried, which is why i explained further. If you can remove them or CotH can please do.

I wish i hadn't read them in the first place.

 

 
chisamba
1 year 51 weeks ago

@ fiona, re: i can't

All you have to do to remove a comment is sign in, hit the edit button and delete.  Saying that you cannot is a huge insult to our intelligence, and a very great disservice to Catherine Haddad, her blog, and to whomever it is you are accusing.

 
ErinBush
1 year 51 weeks ago

Editing/Deleting comments

Hey, you've all inadvertently helped us find a system bug that allows some users the ability to edit/delete their own comments, but not others. We're in the process of fixing this.

Sorry for the confusion.

Erin Bush

New Media Dir
chisamba
1 year 51 weeks ago

Catherine, about your photo

I apologise if i am manipulating an unfair amount of space on your blog.  I happened to notice that you are without stirrups in your photo.  Do you ride without stirrups often?  Do you do so to use, feel and practice a better seat, or for some training purpose.

(we are having a blizzard here, and a state of emergency, so i have un unusual amount of time indoors )

thanks,

Marion

 
equipoize
1 year 51 weeks ago

editing

Fiona - it is VERY possible to remove your words.  Simply select EDIT at the bottom of your post, highlight what you want to remove and hit delete on your keyboard. You can't delete the post, but you can totally change what is written there.   Sometimes life DOES let you take your words back.  mw
fiona 2
1 year 51 weeks ago

i've done that - there is no

i've done that - there is no "edit" at the bottom of the post. Just reply. Which doesn't help. 

As i said previously - i would remove the post if i could, i've tried all your suggestions and everything i can think of but no result.
Catherine Haddad
1 year 51 weeks ago

Pull 'em off!

Marion,  I pull those puppies off my saddle at least 2x per week.  Sometimes I ride the whole week without them! Catherine
michelle
1 year 51 weeks ago

FEI Press Release

I just saw on ultimate dresage forum the FEI has changed the word Low to Long.  What is your take on this?  Typo or making it clear you can't have the nose on the chest and still be Long, Deep and Low?  How can you be Long, Deep and low at the same time?? Sorry for my ignorance. LOL

 

http://www.fei.org/Media/News_Centre/News/Pages/summ.aspx?newsName=news-...
Catherine Haddad
1 year 51 weeks ago

LDR

Michelle, I'm getting there! Will offer my take on LDL, LDR, LDH, etc soon! Keep the questions  coming.  I'm writing down all the subjects for future blogs.  Catherine
michelle
1 year 51 weeks ago

I see it was a typo but that

I see it was a typo but that is odd since the first press release was correct.  Wonder why they had to retype the press release to get it on the website we never had to do that.  LOL
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